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Author Topic: ALEXANDER CAMPBELL & “DISPENSATIONS  (Read 12942 times)

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Offline Norton

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Re: ALEXANDER CAMPBELL & “DISPENSATIONS
« Reply #35 on: Sat Oct 29, 2011 - 19:06:53 »
I am not a follower of John Hagee's doctrine of helping the Jews restore the Temple in Jerusalem so that the Lord can return. I do interpret Romans 11 as saying that a very sizable number of identifiable Jews will flock onto the Kingdom before the Lord returns.

   Norton, something to think about is that Romans 11 might have been fulfilled during the first century.

Buff

   Yes, that is quiet possible, but my hope and expectation is that it has not.

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Re: ALEXANDER CAMPBELL & “DISPENSATIONS
« Reply #35 on: Sat Oct 29, 2011 - 19:06:53 »

Offline DaveW

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Re: ALEXANDER CAMPBELL & “DISPENSATIONS
« Reply #36 on: Sat Oct 29, 2011 - 21:32:28 »
I do not believe the tens of thousands of believing Jews that James references in Acts 21 actually fulfills Romans 11 because we have not seen the "life from the dead" yet.

But when there are enough Jews that believe in Jesus to constitute enough to speak for the Jewish people in welcoming Jesus back to earth, THEN it will be fulfilled.

Oh Jerusalem, you who killed the prophets and stoned the ones I sent to you
How often I wanted to gather you to myself as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings
but you would not
And so your house is being left desolate.

You will not see Me again until you say "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord."

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Re: ALEXANDER CAMPBELL & “DISPENSATIONS
« Reply #36 on: Sat Oct 29, 2011 - 21:32:28 »

Offline DaveW

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Re: ALEXANDER CAMPBELL & “DISPENSATIONS
« Reply #37 on: Sat Oct 29, 2011 - 21:48:06 »
Reformer - that article is chock full of Replacement theology - a doctrinal stance I totally reject.


  "Replacement" or "Displacement," I've never been a part of either. But I have done a lot of biblical research on the matter. That "places" me in God's department (hopefully)!

Buff

I wonder if you really know what Replacement Theology is.  Have you read any Messianic sources on it?

http://www.shema.com/Combating%20Replacement%20Theology/crt-004.php
 
and from  http://www.tikkunministries.org/newsletters/xx-aug09.asp

Quote
Replacement Theology

Historically, the Church has managed instead to erase this truth from the content of Christian faith through Replacement Theology. Example: the creeds include the fact that Jesus is the Son of God and the second Person of the Trinity, but does any creed mention that He is King of the Jews? Instead, throughout most of its existence the Church has taught that Christians have not joined up with the people of Israel, the Jewish people, but have replaced them and become Israel themselves! Thus the Church has tried to skip over the first of the Messiah's five gifts to Gentiles. It claims to "have" God and His hope and His promises and His covenants while remaining alienated from the national life of Israel!

But it doesn't work that way! And it never did! More than a thousand years before Yeshua appeared, Ruth already knew this - which is why, in beseeching Naomi to let her accompany her from Moab back to Bethlehem in the Land of Israel, Ruth said, "Your people are my people and your God is my God." (Ruth 1:16) First she joined the people to whom Naomi belonged. Only then did she receive as her own God the God of the Jews, the only God there is.

Christians must learn - whether from Ruth or from Paul - that in Jesus they become part of a great big Jewish family, and it is within this family relationship that they find God, along with His covenants, promises and hope. This is what is meant by the olive tree metaphor of Romans 11:17-24, which says that Gentile "wild branches" have been grafted into God's olive tree (the Jewish people) among the natural branches (Jews). What is spoken of here is not mystical but practical. Through faith in the Jewish Messiah a Gentile can have God-enhanced, God-blessed human relationships with Jews and with other Gentiles who have found Yeshua and accept Him as the atonement for their sins, as well as with Jews who haven't yet accepted Him.


and this:
Quote
Quote
•  Michael Wyschogrod , Orthodox Jewish theologian, argues that we'll know whether churches have repented of replacement theology when they teach Jews to live their irrevocable calling and destiny by living according to Torah

Online Reformer

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Re: ALEXANDER CAMPBELL & “DISPENSATIONS
« Reply #38 on: Sat Oct 29, 2011 - 23:06:51 »
Dave, you said, "I wonder if you really know what Replacement Theology is."

Give me credit for not being dumb on this subject, brother.

Buff

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Re: ALEXANDER CAMPBELL & “DISPENSATIONS
« Reply #38 on: Sat Oct 29, 2011 - 23:06:51 »

Offline DaveW

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Re: ALEXANDER CAMPBELL & “DISPENSATIONS
« Reply #39 on: Sun Oct 30, 2011 - 07:15:02 »
Not dumb, brother, but rather informed according to traditional Protestant rather than Jewish sources. It is not unlike white acadadimicians defining a black man's experience of racism. It does not work.

If you understood RT, you would see why I said your post had a lot of it.

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Re: ALEXANDER CAMPBELL & “DISPENSATIONS
« Reply #39 on: Sun Oct 30, 2011 - 07:15:02 »



Online Reformer

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Re: ALEXANDER CAMPBELL & “DISPENSATIONS
« Reply #40 on: Mon Oct 31, 2011 - 12:08:57 »
Not dumb, brother, but rather informed according to traditional Protestant rather than Jewish sources. It is not unlike white acadadimicians defining a black man's experience of racism. It does not work.

If you understood RT, you would see why I said your post had a lot of it.

   I've given my attention to your opinion, Dave. And my return opinion is that you are still off-base, doctrinally.

Buff

Offline Jimmy

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Re: ALEXANDER CAMPBELL & “DISPENSATIONS
« Reply #41 on: Mon Oct 31, 2011 - 12:18:39 »
I am not a follower of John Hagee's doctrine of helping the Jews restore the Temple in Jerusalem so that the Lord can return. I do interpret Romans 11 as saying that a very sizable number of identifiable Jews will flock onto the Kingdom before the Lord returns.

   Norton, something to think about is that Romans 11 might have been fulfilled during the first century.

Buff

   Yes, that is quiet possible, but my hope and expectation is that it has not.

Why would you hope not?

Offline DaveW

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Re: ALEXANDER CAMPBELL & “DISPENSATIONS
« Reply #42 on: Tue Nov 01, 2011 - 07:45:07 »
Not dumb, brother, but rather informed according to traditional Protestant rather than Jewish sources. It is not unlike white acadadimicians defining a black man's experience of racism. It does not work.

If you understood RT, you would see why I said your post had a lot of it.
   I've given my attention to your opinion, Dave. And my return opinion is that you are still off-base, doctrinally.

Buff
Since this is going increasingly off the original topic, I think I will start another thread just for discussing Replacement theology in the more general theology folder.

Care to join me? You can explain why you think I am "....still off-base, doctrinally."

Offline Norton

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Re: ALEXANDER CAMPBELL & “DISPENSATIONS
« Reply #43 on: Tue Nov 01, 2011 - 09:18:12 »
I am not a follower of John Hagee's doctrine of helping the Jews restore the Temple in Jerusalem so that the Lord can return. I do interpret Romans 11 as saying that a very sizable number of identifiable Jews will flock onto the Kingdom before the Lord returns.

   Norton, something to think about is that Romans 11 might have been fulfilled during the first century.

Buff

   Yes, that is quiet possible, but my hope and expectation is that it has not.

Why would you hope not?

Because I want many more Jews to come into the kingdom, and I hope the full number of Gentiles has not already come in. As I see it, the more the merrier. That could mean that Christ will not come for some time, but if God is giving the world time to repent, that's OK with me.

Offline Jimmy

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Re: ALEXANDER CAMPBELL & “DISPENSATIONS
« Reply #44 on: Tue Nov 01, 2011 - 10:19:15 »
I am not a follower of John Hagee's doctrine of helping the Jews restore the Temple in Jerusalem so that the Lord can return. I do interpret Romans 11 as saying that a very sizable number of identifiable Jews will flock onto the Kingdom before the Lord returns.

   Norton, something to think about is that Romans 11 might have been fulfilled during the first century.

Buff

   Yes, that is quiet possible, but my hope and expectation is that it has not.

Why would you hope not?

Because I want many more Jews to come into the kingdom, and I hope the full number of Gentiles has not already come in. As I see it, the more the merrier. That could mean that Christ will not come for some time, but if God is giving the world time to repent, that's OK with me.

There we see a problem in the translation that you are using.  The NIV has translated the Greek word pleroma as full number.  I think that is a serious error.  Other translations such as NASB, ASV, ESV, and the KJV as well as the NKJV translate the word as "fullness" not "full number".  A completely different meaning is given to the verse with the erroneous rendering of "full number". That same word, in speaking about the Jews, is used in Rom 11:12. 

Rom 11:12  Now if their fall, is the riches of the world, and their loss the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?


It is variously translated there as "fullness"  or "fulfillment" or in the NIV as "full inclusion".  Notice in the case of v.12 the Greek "pleroma" of the Jews is contrasted with their fall or their loss.  So then what is the fullness that is spoken of there.  I suggest that the meaning is similar or the same as the meaning found in verses such as the following:

John 1:16  For of his fulness we all received, and grace for grace.

Rom 15:29  And I know that, when I come unto you, I shall come in the fulness of the blessing of Christ.

Eph 3:19  and to know the love of Christ which passeth knowledge, that ye may be filled unto all the fulness of God.

Eph 4:13  till we all attain unto the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a fullgrown man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Col 1:19  For it was the good pleasure of the Father that in him should all the fulness dwell;

Col 2:9  for in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily,



It is very interesting that the NIV in Col 2:10 translates "pleroma" as follows:

Col 2:10  and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over every power and authority.

Nowhere else in the NT is "pleroma" ever used in a numerical sense and the NIV is wrong to do it in Rom 11:25. They do so under the pressure of their own theological bias, and erroneously so.

In Romans 11:12,25 the word is used in the sense of fullness of salvation as it is in the above passages.  Thus the "fullness of the Gentiles" in v.25 is the same usage and meaning as the "fullness" of Isreal in v.12, and is basically the same as the "fullness of Christ" (John 1:26) or the "fullness of the blessing of Christ" (Rom 15:29) or "fullness" to which we have been brought in Christ (Col 2:10.  It is salvation that Paul speaks of not numbers of the saved.

Considering that in verse 30-32 Paul says,

Rom 11:30  Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience,
Rom 11:31  so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you.
Rom 11:32  For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.


Paul says that they may NOW receive mercy; not thousands of years in the future. 

Offline Norton

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Re: ALEXANDER CAMPBELL & “DISPENSATIONS
« Reply #45 on: Wed Nov 02, 2011 - 11:33:28 »
Jimmy

Good comments.
Yes, I mostly use the NIV.  The New Layman's Bible Commentary which was written nearly a decade before the NIV appeared used (I think) the RSV translation. It says "full number" and the writer makes no comments that the Greek should be translated otherwise. I have a Greek Interlinear Translation copyrighted in 1969, before the NIV, which translates "fullness" as "full number" So, if there is an error in translating and interpreting "fulness" it is not all due to the influence of the NIV. 

"Full number" does make for a somewhat strange statement from Paul. That no more than a certain number of Gentiles will enter the Kingdom, and then the Jews will began to come in. Johnson's Notes interprets "fullness" as "the greater part of", which makes better sense to me than "full number". Johnson seems to interpret the passages in question, as you interpret them. That Paul's prediction came to pass shortly after he wrote Romans.


Offline DaveW

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Re: ALEXANDER CAMPBELL & “DISPENSATIONS
« Reply #46 on: Wed Nov 02, 2011 - 11:54:17 »
"Fullness" could just as easily mean fullness of time as fullness of number.

Luke (companion of Paul) recorded Our Lord's words like this:

Luke 21:24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Since Jerusalem was firmly in Jewish control until 70 ad (after Paul died) and they did not completely lose control of it until 135 ad (Bar Kochba revolt) the period of the "Times of the gentiles" had not really even started yet.

There was a brief glimmer of Jerusalem and the Temple Mount being restored to Jewish control following the 1967  "Six Day War," but they gave control of East Jerusalem back to Jordan the next year.

So the times of the gentiles goes on. We have not reached that "fullness" yet.

 

     
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