Baptism in Kool-Aid

[stevehut]

Isothenuria comes very close.

Isn't that what they do to lame horses?   

[sopranette]

Amen!  Plus it whould make my hair all sticky. Manna for you.

love,

Sopranette

[DCR]

I'm just curious to see where marc is going with this... if anywhere.

[marc]

There's a point to this.  I'll elaborate after I see a few votes.

This may not strictly be an RM thing, but, well, maybe it will become clear when I post more.  Or maybe not. 

Since Kool-Aid is mostly water, then technically, if that's all you had (say in some bizarre situation where there was no other water available but a vat at the Kool-Aid plant), then yeah, maybe.  

Of course, "pure" 100% water (meaning not even a trace of minerals or anything) with nothing else possibly in it is, for all intents and purposes, non-existent, except in a lab situation under controlled conditions.

You're thinking the right direction, but I'm going to start there, then make a sharp left.

[marc]

Okay, here's what I was thinking:

A little while ago I made an offhanded comment about being baptized in kool-aid or 7-up.  This started me thinking. The command is to be baptized in water, and Kool-aid is mostly water, so technically, it might be okay.  After all, I would guess that none of us here were baptized in pure water (I guess the Catholics make an attempt).  But using Kool-Aid would seem to violate the intent of the passage.

Still, how far away from being pure water can you get and still call what you have water?  10% impurities?  20%? 25?  Is the line, perhaps, drawn when you intentionally do something to push the meaning of baptism to the brink, thus showing a lack of respect for what baptism is?

But we don't run into any problems like this in real life, do we?

Well....

When I was young, I saw many double-baptisms because an elbow or a hand came out of the water.  Randy Harris tells the story of how they were trained at Harding to be sure to get each the baptizee all the way under, and then practiced on each other, with the students trying to keep from going under (all this ended in body slams).  He then told how, on a campaign, he baptized a lady in a building where the baptistry hadn't been used in a while and had very little water in it.  She went all the way down, but still wasn't completely under.  At this point, an older preacher began to make waves in the pool that splashed over her, so briefly, she was all the way under at once.

It occurs to me that this is the kind of thing that may only happen in Churches of Christ (although I could be wrong).

Now, of course, we're more enlightened.  We don't think God will send someone to Hell over the technicality of an elbow.  Okay, then, how about an arm?  A torso?  A head?  What if only the top of the head gets wet?

Where do we draw the line?  Where does baptism stop being immersion?   When does the water become Kool-Aid?

And what does all this say about the way we think about theology, if anything?

[Imabear]

marc, When I was new to these forums, I read something about how Churches of Christ taught that baptism literally washes sins away.  If I believed this, I wouldn't want to live downstream from a CoC baptismal point, as all the water would be contaminated with the sins, and who knows if that water filter I have downstairs, or the one under the sink, would remove that kind of contamination.  I fear all the water on earth would eventually end up contaminated with sin. :)  We'd all be in serious trouble.
Sopranette wrote:

...it would make my hair all sticky.

love,

Sopranette

Kool-ade is available unsweetened, you could buy that kind and not add the sugar.

The church I was raised in had white baptismal gowns.  The one I attend now doesn't use them.  Most people just wear shorts and a t-shirt.

Good question Marc. I was raised in a church that taught baptism by immersion, but I had never read about the concern of someone's hair floating on the surface until I found these forums.  I don't think it would ever come up as an issue at my current church.  We currently baptize by immersion, because we have a baptistery, but we've only had that for the last 5 or 6 years.  Before that summer baptisms were done in a swimming pool, winter ones were done by pouring.  Pouring is the most common method for the denomination I currently attend.

If you used purple kool-ade, you'd end up with a bunch of temporarily purple people.  :)

[mike]

Okay, here's what I was thinking:

A little while ago I made an offhanded comment about being baptized in kool-aid or 7-up.  This started me thinking. The command is to be baptized in water, and Kool-aid is mostly water, so technically, it might be okay.  After all, I would guess that none of us here were baptized in pure water (I guess the Catholics make an attempt).  But using Kool-Aid would seem to violate the intent of the passage.

Still, how far away from being pure water can you get and still call what you have water?  10% impurities?  20%? 25?  Is the line, perhaps, drawn when you intentionally do something to push the meaning of baptism to the brink, thus showing a lack of respect for what baptism is?

But we don't run into any problems like this in real life, do we?

Well....

When I was young, I saw many double-baptisms because an elbow or a hand came out of the water.  Randy Harris tells the story of how they were trained at Harding to be sure to get each the baptizee all the way under, and then practiced on each other, with the students trying to keep from going under (all this ended in body slams).  He then told how, on a campaign, he baptized a lady in a building where the baptistry hadn't been used in a while and had very little water in it.  She went all the way down, but still wasn't completely under.  At this point, an older preacher began to make waves in the pool that splashed over her, so briefly, she was all the way under at once.

It occurs to me that this is the kind of thing that may only happen in Churches of Christ (although I could be wrong).

Now, of course, we're more enlightened.  We don't think God will send someone to Hell over the technicality of an elbow.  Okay, then, how about an arm?  A torso?  A head?  What if only the top of the head gets wet?

Where do we draw the line?  Where does baptism stop being immersion?   When does the water become Kool-Aid?

And what does all this say about the way we think about theology, if anything?

All good preachers know how to create a brief saving wave. 

[Serenity432001]

I think the kool-aid should be cherry because then it would be red and represent the blood better.

Seriously, though, marc is doing a good job of bringing home what is it that really matters here.  Baptism, like other things God asks us to do is not about the technical part or just making sure we've checked off everything on the list but its about commitment and surrender and dying to self.  Again, of course, its about the heart.  It seems to me when we try so obsessivly to make sure WE GET IT RIGHT then, we make it about us instead of about Christ.  Its one reason people might see it as man-centered verses Christ-centered. 

[sopranette]

Vanity, vanity...all is vanity.   ::frown::If the bible says water, then that's what we should use.

love,

Sopranette

[Serenity432001]

Vanity, vanity...all is vanity.   ::frown::If the bible says water, then that's what we should use.

love,

Sopranette

The point is there is water in kool-aid so if God says water, does he mean pure water or just how pure is necessary?  Or is it even about that at all?

[sopranette]

Unless someone can show me where it says, "thou shalt add strawberry flavor to thy baptismal pool", I'll stick with plain old water.

love,

Sopranette

[James.]

If someone asks you for a cup of water, what do you give them?

[sopranette]

If someone asks you for a cup of water, what do you give them?

A cup of water.

love,

Sopranette

[James.]

Yep, it's a simple test.  If you walk up to the pool, it could be mirky, dirty, have pond scum on it, but you'd still call it "water."  If you walked up to to a pool and it smelled like synthetic cherrys and was the color of deer blood, not so much.  Same if it looked and smelled like coffee.

As to the elbow issue, that's just a refection of just how afraid some folks are of "getting it wrong."  Love casts out fear, so a healthier understanding of the love of God and His desire to save is the answer.  The answer to a fear of getting things wrong is not to develop an equal fear of being concerned with getting things right, however.


Eccl 7:16-18
16   Do not be excessively righteous, and do not be overly wise. Why should you ruin yourself?
17   Do not be excessively wicked, and do not be a fool. Why should you die before your time?
18   It is good that you grasp one thing, and also not let go of the other; for the one who fears God comes forth with both of them.
(NAS)

[Serenity432001]

Yep, it's a simple test.  If you walk up to the pool, it could be mirky, dirty, have pond scum on it, but you'd still call it "water."  If you walked up to to a pool and it smelled like synthetic cherrys and was the color of deer blood, not so much.  Same if it looked and smelled like coffee.

As to the elbow issue, that's just a refection of just how afraid some folks are of "getting it wrong."  Love casts out fear, so a healthier understanding of the love of God and His desire to save is the answer.  The answer to a fear of getting things wrong is not to develop an equal fear of being concerned with getting right, however.

I see what you're saying jmg3rd but don't you think its Jesus that got it right and no matter how hard I try, I'll never be "right" enough without Him.