Author Topic: Baptism views?  (Read 16440 times)

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Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Baptism views?
« Reply #35 on: Thu Dec 25, 2014 - 19:43:49 »
Thank you,
Sticking with the OP topic of baptism,  one of the crossovers from Judaism to the gentile church is baptism. Acts 2:39 shows that Peter was making repenatance and baptism in Jesus's name for forgiveness of sins applicable for everyone, for all whom the Lord our God will call. This baptism would be the baptism the "Jews" understood, for cleansing. The non-sin cleansing baptism around today didn't exist back then.
« Last Edit: Thu Dec 25, 2014 - 19:48:05 by e.r.m. »

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Re: Baptism views?
« Reply #35 on: Thu Dec 25, 2014 - 19:43:49 »

Offline Charlie24

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Re: Baptism views?
« Reply #36 on: Thu Dec 25, 2014 - 21:00:41 »
Pardon me fellas!

When we learn that the washing of regeneration spoken of by Paul and Peter is in fact the blood of Christ washing away sin, the actual process of forgiving sin and saving the soul, we will then understand the true purpose of water baptism.

The washing of regeneration is called "baptism into Christ", not that of water. When Paul says "those of you who were baptized..." he was speaking of their salvation experience that took place inside the heart and soul.

Peter also uses an undeniable symbol of water baptism being figurative of salvation.

We know baptism can be figurative from John the Baptist.

Matt. 3:11
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance (literal). but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: (figurative)

 

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Baptism views?
« Reply #37 on: Thu Dec 25, 2014 - 21:39:06 »
Charlie24,
Quote
When we learn that the washing of regeneration spoken of by Paul and Peter is in fact the blood of Christ washing away sin, the actual process of forgiving sin and saving the soul, we will then understand the true purpose of water baptism.

The washing of regeneration is called "baptism into Christ", not that of water. When Paul says "those of you who were baptized..." he was speaking of their salvation experience that took place inside the heart and soul.
If Peter and Paul thought of baptism in this way, they would have spoken about baptism in this way. No, Peter stated baptism's purpose outright.
Acts 2:38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Quote
We know baptism can be figurative from John the Baptist.

Matt. 3:11
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance (literal). but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: (figurative)
This wasn't figurative,  those few who were thus baptized were immersed in the Holy Spirit. And baptism with water occurred concurrently with baptism with the Holy Spirit.
Acts 8:36-39, 10:47-48. When Paul said baptism into Christ, he was talking about baptism with water.
« Last Edit: Thu Dec 25, 2014 - 22:26:06 by e.r.m. »

Offline Charlie24

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Re: Baptism views?
« Reply #38 on: Thu Dec 25, 2014 - 21:48:38 »
He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire.

Who do you know who has been baptized with fire? It's figurative erm.

The debate is this, baptism with fire is the cleansing of the godly, vs., baptism with fire is the sentence to hell of nonbelievers.

But it's not really a debate. One automatically warrants the other.

Offline Charlie24

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Re: Baptism views?
« Reply #39 on: Thu Dec 25, 2014 - 21:59:15 »
Some say it's the cloven tongues of fire at Pentecost.

But the point I'm making is that baptism can and is used figuratively.

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Re: Baptism views?
« Reply #39 on: Thu Dec 25, 2014 - 21:59:15 »



Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Baptism views?
« Reply #40 on: Thu Dec 25, 2014 - 22:30:34 »
Yes, cloven tongues of fire.
Baptism with the Holy Spirit is neither described in the scriptures as the cleansing of the godly, nor as the sentence to hell of nonbelievers.

There is one time I saw baptism used figuratively,
Mark 10:39 “We can,” they answered. Jesus said to them, “You will drink the cup I drink and be baptized with the baptism I am baptized with,

But the baptism Matthew 28:19, employed through most of the New Testament, is not figurative.
« Last Edit: Thu Dec 25, 2014 - 22:34:31 by e.r.m. »

Offline Charlie24

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Re: Baptism views?
« Reply #41 on: Thu Dec 25, 2014 - 22:31:29 »
I think I've told you this before, but I'll say it again.

Baptism is always emersion. But it's not always liquid form as you suppose.

In Rom. 6 Paul tells us we are baptized into Christ's death buried with Him. The emersion is not water it's being buried in Christ. This has absolutely nothing to do with water.

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Baptism views?
« Reply #42 on: Thu Dec 25, 2014 - 22:41:54 »
Yes it is and yes it does. Baptism is immersion in water by default,
Acts 8:36 As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, “Look, here is water. What can stand in the way of my being baptized?”

unless stated otherwise, like it is in Matthew 3:11.

Offline Charlie24

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Re: Baptism views?
« Reply #43 on: Thu Dec 25, 2014 - 22:55:08 »
By default huh!

Acts 1:5
For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Here are two baptisms, one with water and the other with the Holy Ghost.

Baptism is not always water erm.

Offline Charlie24

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Re: Baptism views?
« Reply #44 on: Thu Dec 25, 2014 - 23:04:03 »
There are 7 baptisms in scripture and one is in Rom. 6, the Baptism into Christ.

And it ain't water!

Offline Charlie24

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Re: Baptism views?
« Reply #45 on: Thu Dec 25, 2014 - 23:23:30 »
When you try to come to Christ through water, you are coming to Christ through the Law.

You will be judged by the Law, not by Grace.

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Baptism views?
« Reply #46 on: Thu Dec 25, 2014 - 23:38:38 »
Acts 1:5
I didn't say it was always water, I said it is water by default unless stated otherwise. In that verse, it is stated otherwise. And in the seven baptisms, it is water, unless stated otherwise. Baptism into Christ for example, is in water.

Offline Rella

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Re: Baptism views?
« Reply #47 on: Fri Dec 26, 2014 - 07:50:29 »

If Peter and Paul thought of baptism in this way, they would have spoken about baptism in this way. No, Peter stated baptism's purpose outright.
Acts 2:38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Matt. 3:11
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance (literal). but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: (figurative)

This wasn't figurative,  those few who were thus baptized were immersed in the Holy Spirit. And baptism with water occurred concurrently with baptism with the Holy Spirit.
Acts 8:36-39, 10:47-48. When Paul said baptism into Christ, he was talking about baptism with water.

Well, I believe I have received the Holy Ghost/Spirit. I pray in tongues and believe that is a gift from Him.

I was baptized as a baby, and not by immersion. It was the usual protestant water on the head.

After I became born again I did not get any further kind of baptism involving water.

Am I now to believe that I have not received the Holy Ghost/ Spirit?

If so, then when I pray in tongues I am not praying in tongues?

Offline Charlie24

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Re: Baptism views?
« Reply #48 on: Fri Dec 26, 2014 - 09:30:12 »
Rom. 6:3 is a specific baptism.

Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

We are baptized into Jesus Christ. This is not water, it is a spiritual baptism, it is figurative.

Offline Jaime

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Re: Baptism views?
« Reply #49 on: Fri Dec 26, 2014 - 10:25:11 »
The 3000 in  Acts 2 received remission of sin AND the gift of the Holy Spirit after repenting and being baptized as Peter commanded.

Ananias did not think baptism was law keeping since he commanded Paul to be baptized.

Peter in 1 Peter 3 said baptism IS the calling upon the name of the Lord.

The first century folks would have scratched their heads at separating baptism from salvation.

Jesus' baptism was different than John's in that it did convey the gift of the Holy Spirit, and as Jesus predicted, tongues of fire baptized the disciples at Pentecost with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit came upon Cornelius in the same way to convince Peter and the others that God did have a plan for the Gentiles. They said, "look they received the Holy Spirit just as we did." It was for a purpose. The Cornelius incident didn't erase the rest of the NT.

I was baptized into Christ and it involved water, AND the gift of the Spirit, AND forgiveness of sin by the blood of Christ, just as those in Acts 2. Ananias knew the blood of Christ was contacted in water baptism. Paul still had his sins to his account prior to his baptism even though he had encountered Christ on the road. The water does not do the washing as 1 Peter 3 says, but baptism IS the calling upon the name of the Lord.

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Re: Baptism views?
« Reply #50 on: Fri Dec 26, 2014 - 11:38:00 »
Charlie24,
Quote
Rom. 6:3 is a specific baptism.

Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

We are baptized into Jesus Christ. This is not water, it is a spiritual baptism, it is figurative.
Quote
One and the same.
« Last Edit: Fri Dec 26, 2014 - 12:07:08 by e.r.m. »

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Baptism views?
« Reply #51 on: Fri Dec 26, 2014 - 12:09:44 »
Rella,
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Well, I believe I have received the Holy Ghost/Spirit. I pray in tongues and believe that is a gift from Him.

I was baptized as a baby, and not by immersion. It was the usual protestant water on the head.

After I became born again I did not get any further kind of baptism involving water.

Am I now to believe that I have not received the Holy Ghost/ Spirit?

If so, then when I pray in tongues I am not praying in tongues?
This goes very much against what you posted about the mikveh.

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Re: Baptism views?
« Reply #52 on: Fri Dec 26, 2014 - 12:15:53 »
Charlie24,
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When you try to come to Christ through water, you are coming to Christ through the Law.
Says who?! When did water baptism in Jesus's name for the forgiveness of sins Acts 2:38 become a part of the mosaic law?!
« Last Edit: Fri Dec 26, 2014 - 12:31:16 by e.r.m. »

Offline Rella

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Re: Baptism views?
« Reply #53 on: Fri Dec 26, 2014 - 12:45:22 »
Rella,
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Well, I believe I have received the Holy Ghost/Spirit. I pray in tongues and believe that is a gift from Him.

I was baptized as a baby, and not by immersion. It was the usual protestant water on the head.

After I became born again I did not get any further kind of baptism involving water.

Am I now to believe that I have not received the Holy Ghost/ Spirit?

If so, then when I pray in tongues I am not praying in tongues?
This goes very much against what you posted about the mikveh.

This is not against what I posted about the mikveh.

From that post is

"According to Jewish law there are three basic areas where immersion in the mikveh is required.

1. Immersion is required for both men and women when converting to Judaism. There were three prerequisites for a proselyte coming into Judaism: Circumcision, baptism, and sacrifice (Maimonides, Hilkh. Iss. Biah xiii. 5). 2. Immersion is required after a woman has her monthly period (Lev. 15:28). 3. Immersion is required for pots and eating utensils manufactured by a non-Jew (Encyclopedia of Jewish Religion p-263).

Besides these, there are other times when it is customary to be immersed in the mikveh such as the occasion before Yom Kippur as a sign of purity and repentance and before the Sabbath in order to sensitize oneself to the holiness of the day.

It further goes on with

" The baptismal water (Mikveh) in rabbinic literature was referred to as the womb of the world, and as a convert came out of the water it was considered a new birth separating him from the pagan world. As the convert came out of these waters his status was changed and he was referred to as "a little child just born" or "a child of one day"

Because this "born again" if we call it that was being converted into Judaism from paganism. And others....

" We see the New Testament using similar Jewish terms as "born anew," "new creation," and "born from above." According to Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum rabbinic literature uses the term "born again" to refer to at least six different occurrences. Note each of these life changing experiences: (a) When a Gentile converts to Judaism. (b) When an individual is crowned king. (c) At age 13 when a Jewish boy chooses to embrace God's covenant and be numbered with the believers. (d) When an individual gets married. (e) When an individual becomes a rabbi. (f) When an individual becomes the head of a rabbinical school."

I have read we are to be baptized after our acceptance of Jesus as our Lord and Savior to wash our sins and to be made clean. It is a gesture of our sincere declaration of our hearts desire to repent now that we are forgiven.

However, from the same article posted in my reply #30 here is...

"Repentance Without Baptism

One of the most important teachings in Judaism is that of repentance. According to both Scripture and rabbinic literature, no matter how great the sin, if a person repents and forsakes the sin before God he can be forgiven. As we see in the case of John, Jesus, and all New Testament writers, repentance was always involved. The Jerusalem Talmud states, "nothing can stand before repentance" (Yebamos 47b). According to Dr. David Flusser, the Dead Sea Scrolls as well as the New Testament teach that water can purify the body only if the soul has first been purified through repentance and righteousness.

So I repeat.... nothing about myself personally is in contradiction to what I have posted about the Mikveh.

Is it proper.... to be water submersed baptized after our acceptance of Jesus. Yes.

Is it mandatory. No. Other then following what your specific church declares about this.



Offline Charlie24

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Re: Baptism views?
« Reply #54 on: Fri Dec 26, 2014 - 12:58:32 »
The 3000 in  Acts 2 received remission of sin AND the gift of the Holy Spirit after repenting and being baptized as Peter commanded.

Ananias did not think baptism was law keeping since he commanded Paul to be baptized.

Peter in 1 Peter 3 said baptism IS the calling upon the name of the Lord.

The first century folks would have scratched their heads at separating baptism from salvation.

Jesus' baptism was different than John's in that it did convey the gift of the Holy Spirit, and as Jesus predicted, tongues of fire baptized the disciples at Pentecost with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit came upon Cornelius in the same way to convince Peter and the others that God did have a plan for the Gentiles. They said, "look they received the Holy Spirit just as we did." It was for a purpose. The Cornelius incident didn't erase the rest of the NT.

I was baptized into Christ and it involved water, AND the gift of the Spirit, AND forgiveness of sin by the blood of Christ, just as those in Acts 2. Ananias knew the blood of Christ was contacted in water baptism. Paul still had his sins to his account prior to his baptism even though he had encountered Christ on the road. The water does not do the washing as 1 Peter 3 says, but baptism IS the calling upon the name of the Lord.
If this true Jaime, how is it that Ananias called Paul "Brother" before he was baptized?

Offline Jaime

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Re: Baptism views?
« Reply #55 on: Fri Dec 26, 2014 - 13:09:25 »
The 3000 in  Acts 2 received remission of sin AND the gift of the Holy Spirit after repenting and being baptized as Peter commanded. I was baptized into Christ and it involved water, AND the gift of the Spirit, AND forgiveness of sin by the blood of Christ, just as those in Acts 2. Ananias knew the blood of Christ was contacted in water baptism. Paul still had his sins to his account prior

Ananias did not think baptism was law keeping since he commanded Paul to be baptized.

Peter in 1 Peter 3 said baptism IS the calling upon the name of the Lord.

The first century folks would have scratched their heads at separating baptism from salvation.

Jesus' baptism was different than John's in that it did convey the gift of the Holy Spirit, and as Jesus predicted, tongues of fire baptized the disciples at Pentecost with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit came upon Cornelius in the same way to convince Peter and the others that God did have a plan for the Gentiles. They said, "look they received the Holy Spirit just as we did." It was for a purpose. The Cornelius incident didn't erase the rest of the NT.

to his baptism even though he had encountered Christ on the road. The water does not do the washing as 1 Peter 3 says, but baptism IS the calling upon the name of the Lord.
If this true Jaime, how is it that Ananias called Paul "Brother" before he was baptized?

Don't know. I haven't done a word study on the word translated brother. How is it that Ananias said what he said to Paul concerning getting baptized if his sins didn't need to be washed away.

Offline Charlie24

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Re: Baptism views?
« Reply #56 on: Fri Dec 26, 2014 - 13:15:19 »
He was saved on the road to Damascus.

Now he was told to follw the Lord's commandment and be baptized calling on the name of the Lord symbolizing his forgiveness of sins that had already taken place.

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Re: Baptism views?
« Reply #57 on: Fri Dec 26, 2014 - 13:23:51 »
Can one be saved with sins still to their tally and lacking the Holy Spirit as Ananias indicated?

9:17 Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord—Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here—has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18 Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul’s eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized, 19 and after taking some food, he regained his strength.

22:14  “Then he said: ‘The God of our ancestors has chosen you to know his will and to see the Righteous One and to hear words from his mouth. 15 You will be his witness to all people of what you have seen and heard. 16 And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.’
« Last Edit: Fri Dec 26, 2014 - 13:30:12 by Jaime »

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Re: Baptism views?
« Reply #58 on: Fri Dec 26, 2014 - 13:35:20 »
How is it that so many who claim to be followers of Christ do not know that without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin?    The Blood of Christ was applied in the Heavenly Holies, and there it remains to be applied to cover the sin of the believer.   Paul needed the same sin covering.   Only Christ's blood is the eternal sin covering.   Forget your water baptisms - the milk - and read the Book of Hebrews where you'll find the meat of the Word and learn what Christ did so that we might be saved.   We can't do anything to save ourselves and we ought to stop promoting such wrong teaching.   

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Re: Baptism views?
« Reply #59 on: Fri Dec 26, 2014 - 13:46:37 »
How is it that so many who claim to be followers of Christ do not know that without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin?    The Blood of Christ was applied in the Heavenly Holies, and there it remains to be applied to cover the sin of the believer.   Paul needed the same sin covering.   Only Christ's blood is the eternal sin covering.   Forget your water baptisms - the milk - and read the Book of Hebrews where you'll find the meat of the Word and learn what Christ did so that we might be saved.   We can't do anything to save ourselves and we ought to stop promoting such wrong teaching.

Well said notreligus! It is just as you say!

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Re: Baptism views?
« Reply #60 on: Fri Dec 26, 2014 - 13:58:38 »
Yes Christ's blood cleanses sin. It happens in baptism as per Acts 2 and other places. I didn't come up with the prescription. The baptism IS the calling upon the Lord. The water doesn't wash as per 1 Peter 3. But it is involved not an after thought, but God's prescribed process.

The 3000 were cleansed by Christ blood IN baptism.
« Last Edit: Fri Dec 26, 2014 - 14:07:07 by Jaime »

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Re: Baptism views?
« Reply #61 on: Fri Dec 26, 2014 - 14:11:52 »
Yes Christ's blood cleanses sin. It happens in baptism as per Acts 2 and other places. I didn't come up with the orescription. The baptism IS the calling upon the Lord. The water doesn't wash as per 1 Peter 3. But it is involved not an after thought, but God's prescribed process.

The 3000 were cleansed by Christ blood IN baptism.

God's prescribed order is faith in the DBR of Jesus Christ.

We're talking about grace. Water baptism has no part in grace through faith for salvation.

Water baptism is important for the believer, it is commanded by Christ Himself. But it must be performed in the proper manner. The mindset for salvation and water baptism must be that of a free gift, it must be of grace. Water baptism cannot be placed as part of God's grace, that is, salvation. If so, the grace is cancelled out.

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Re: Baptism views?
« Reply #62 on: Fri Dec 26, 2014 - 14:30:11 »
Water baptism is an act of complete submission. It is ot a work of man any more than repenting or confessing Christ is Lord with our lips. God does the work in baptism. Man only submits.

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Re: Baptism views?
« Reply #63 on: Fri Dec 26, 2014 - 14:46:46 »
I know you don't see water baptism as law or works.

Water baptism is good if obeyed in the proper manner. Man can turn anything of God that's good into law, by not using it in God's prescribed order.

For example, to this day the Jews, as a nation, believe circumcision is a must to be saved. In reality, it was never meant for that purpose. It was their identity with God, not their salvation. Their salvation was in believing in the coming Messiah, by offering sacrifices as a symbol of His coming sacrifice.

The exact same thing holds true with water baptism. Water baptism has nothing to do with our salvation, it is our identity with Christ. Our salvation is by grace through faith, the same as believing in the coming Messiah under the law.

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Baptism views?
« Reply #64 on: Fri Dec 26, 2014 - 15:15:32 »
Charlie24,
Quote
If this true Jaime, how is it that Ananias called Paul "Brother" before he was baptized?
Acts 7:2 To this he replied: “Brothers and fathers, listen to me! The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham while he was still in Mesopotamia, before he lived in Harran

Acts 21:40 After receiving the commander's permission, Paul stood on the steps and motioned to the crowd. When they were all silent, he said to them in Aramaic Acts 22:1 “Brothers and fathers, listen now to my defense.

Acts 23:1 Paul looked straight at the Sanhedrin and said, “My brothers, I have fulfilled my duty to God in all good conscience to this day.”

Acts 23:6 Then Paul, knowing that some of them were Sadducees and the others Pharisees, called out in the Sanhedrin, “My brothers, I am a Pharisee, descended from Pharisees. I stand on trial because of the hope of the resurrection of the dead.”

Acts 28:17 Three days later he called together the local Jewish leaders. When they had assembled, Paul said to them: “My brothers, although I have done nothing against our people or against the customs of our ancestors, I was arrested in Jerusalem and handed over to the Romans.


The disciples referred to their Jews as brothers, frequently, to those who were not yet saved, on the basis of their Jewish roots. How could you think Ananias calling Saul brother was an indication of salvation? Did you think this was even a good argument? No disrespect intended.
« Last Edit: Fri Dec 26, 2014 - 15:17:59 by e.r.m. »

Offline Charlie24

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Re: Baptism views?
« Reply #65 on: Fri Dec 26, 2014 - 15:23:06 »
Charlie24,
Quote
If this true Jaime, how is it that Ananias called Paul "Brother" before he was baptized?
Acts 7:2 To this he replied: “Brothers and fathers, listen to me! The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham while he was still in Mesopotamia, before he lived in Harran

Acts 21:40 After receiving the commander's permission, Paul stood on the steps and motioned to the crowd. When they were all silent, he said to them in Aramaic Acts 22:1 “Brothers and fathers, listen now to my defense.

Acts 23:1 Paul looked straight at the Sanhedrin and said, “My brothers, I have fulfilled my duty to God in all good conscience to this day.”

Acts 23:6 Then Paul, knowing that some of them were Sadducees and the others Pharisees, called out in the Sanhedrin, “My brothers, I am a Pharisee, descended from Pharisees. I stand on trial because of the hope of the resurrection of the dead.”

Acts 28:17 Three days later he called together the local Jewish leaders. When they had assembled, Paul said to them: “My brothers, although I have done nothing against our people or against the customs of our ancestors, I was arrested in Jerusalem and handed over to the Romans.


The disciples referred to their Jews as brothers, frequently, to those who were not yet saved, on the basis of their Jewish roots. How could you think Ananias calling Saul brother was an indication of salvation? Did you think this was even a good argument? No disrespect intended.

Because Paul had come to arrest Ananias and all who believed in "The Way", and carry them back to Jerusalem to be punished.

Ananias doubted Jesus when he was told what had happened to Paul. When Ananias saw Paul and knew what had happened, he knew he had been saved, and called him "Brother."

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Baptism views?
« Reply #66 on: Fri Dec 26, 2014 - 15:49:33 »
Charlie24,
Quote
I know you don't see water baptism as law or works.

Water baptism is good if obeyed in the proper manner. Man can turn anything of God that's good into law, by not using it in God's prescribed order.
No, we can't turn anything into Mosaic Law that wasn't already in there. The Bible never talks about "turning" anything into law.

Quote
by offering sacrifices as a symbol of His coming sacrifice.

The exact same thing holds true with water baptism. Water baptism has nothing to do with our salvation, it is our identity with Christ. Our salvation is by grace through faith, the same as believing in the coming Messiah under the law.
The Bible never says these things or speaks like this. Only commentators do: "The Bible doesn't ever say this, but that's what it means!"

Try again.
« Last Edit: Fri Dec 26, 2014 - 16:14:54 by e.r.m. »

Offline Charlie24

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Re: Baptism views?
« Reply #67 on: Fri Dec 26, 2014 - 16:01:45 »
Charlie24,
Quote
I know you don't see water baptism as law or works.

Water baptism is good if obeyed in the proper manner. Man can turn anything of God that's good into law, by not using it in God's prescribed order.
No, we can't turn anything into Mosaic Law that wasn't already in there. The Bible never talks about "turning" anything into law.

Quote
For example, to this day the Jews, as a nation, believe circumcision is a must to be saved. In reality, it was never meant for that purpose. It was their identity with God, not their salvation. Their salvation was in believing in the coming Messiah, by offering sacrifices as a symbol of His coming sacrifice.

The exact same thing holds true with water baptism. Water baptism has nothing to do with our salvation, it is our identity with Christ. Our salvation is by grace through faith, the same as believing in the coming Messiah under the law.
The Bible never says these things or speaks like this. Only commentators do: "The Bible doesn't ever say this, but that's what it means!"

Try again.

If you don't understand these things, no wonder you're in this mess!

Offline Jaime

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Re: Baptism views?
« Reply #68 on: Fri Dec 26, 2014 - 16:03:49 »
Charlie, i too believe we are saved by grace theough Faith in Christ. But to say baptism has nothing to do with salvation is like saying repentance and confessing with our lios has nothing to with salvation Baptism alone does NOT save. I hope you clearly read that A repentant, believer confessing with his lips and submitting to baptism INTO Christ IS saved in the bible I read. Salvation was not segmented as some time to do today.

Offline Charlie24

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Re: Baptism views?
« Reply #69 on: Fri Dec 26, 2014 - 16:11:00 »
Charlie, i too believe we are saved by grace theough Faith in Christ. But to say baptism has nothing to do with salvation is like saying repentance and confessing with our lios has nothing to with salvation Baptism alone does NOT save. I hope you clearly read that A repentant, believer confessing with his lips and submitting to baptism INTO Christ IS saved in the bible I read. Salvation was not segmented as some time to do today.

I surly don't see it that way Jaime. We continue to stand divided on salvation. But amazingly enough, we agree on everything else.

 

     
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