Author Topic: Baptism views?  (Read 16439 times)

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Offline Norton

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Re: Baptism views?
« Reply #70 on: Fri Dec 26, 2014 - 16:14:55 »
Both baptism in water and the gift of the Holy Spirit (baptism by the Spirit if you will) are things bestowed on a believer by others than himself. One is bestowed by the church in the name of Christ, the other bestowed by Christ himself. One is outward and visible, the other is inward and invisible unless accompanied by signs. Both are bestowed because the convert repents and believes the blood of Christ will cleanse him from sin. Both are said in the Bible to wash, justify, and sanctify.

I am sure there are some people who think otherwise than the above, and also imagine that when they were baptized in water they earned salvation by obedience to law, or that they were saved apart from the blood of Christ. I think they are rare and don't think you will find them posting on this thread.


 

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Re: Baptism views?
« Reply #70 on: Fri Dec 26, 2014 - 16:14:55 »

Offline Red Baker

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Re: Baptism views?
« Reply #71 on: Fri Dec 26, 2014 - 16:16:23 »
If you don't understand these things, no wonder you're in this mess!

Charlie, that was not nice.  e.r.m. is a good man, but like all of us, our doctrine is not perfect. He handles himself with class, and is always gracious when speaking, you should show the same kindness.

Now, I say that baptism does save in one true biblical sense, would you like me to prove that to you?  I would be happy to do so.  You just cannot continue debating these men, without addressing Mark 16:16.  Words have lost their meaning if water baptism does not save in one true biblical sense.  As brothers, would you like to discuss this one scriptures with me?   

« Last Edit: Fri Dec 26, 2014 - 16:19:37 by Red Baker »

Offline Charlie24

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Re: Baptism views?
« Reply #72 on: Fri Dec 26, 2014 - 16:19:12 »
If you don't understand these things, no wonder you're in this mess!

Charlie, that was not nice.  e.r.m is a good man, but like all of us, our doctrine is not perfect. He handles himself with class, and is always gracious when speaking, you should show the same kindness.

Now, I say that baptism does save in one true biblical sense, would you like me to prove that to you?  I would be happy to do so.  You just cannot continue debating these men, without addressing Mark 16:16.  Words have lost their meaning if water baptism does not save in one true biblical sense.  As brothers, would you like to discuss this one scriptures with me?

Yes Red, baptism does save in a sense. The sense in which Peter gave, a symbol.

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Baptism views?
« Reply #73 on: Fri Dec 26, 2014 - 16:22:54 »
Charlie24,
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If you don't understand these things, no wonder you're in this mess!
I cropped my last post to clarify what part is not in scripture. The part I left is completely commentator invented.

Offline Red Baker

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Re: Baptism views?
« Reply #74 on: Fri Dec 26, 2014 - 16:27:29 »
Yes Red, baptism does save in a sense. The sense in which Peter gave, a symbol.

Well, that's true.  But that is not what is the sense Jesus meant in Mark 16:16.  There is another true biblical sense that you are missing.  Go to Mark 16, and consider carefully verses 11, 13 and verse 14 and then continue reading down to 16, and one shall be able to see another sense that Jesus had in mind when he spoke those words!   The Holy Spirit takes us by the hand from verses 11 down to sixteen to help us to see in what sense water baptism saves those who are baptized!  Do you have eyes to see it?

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Re: Baptism views?
« Reply #74 on: Fri Dec 26, 2014 - 16:27:29 »



Offline Charlie24

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Re: Baptism views?
« Reply #75 on: Fri Dec 26, 2014 - 16:31:02 »
Yes Red, baptism does save in a sense. The sense in which Peter gave, a symbol.

Well, that's true.  But that is not what is the sense Jesus meant in Mark 16:16.  There is another true biblical sense that you are missing.  Go to Mark 16, and consider carefully verses 11, 13 and verse 14 and then continue reading down to 16, and one shall be able to see another sense that Jesus had in mind when he spoke those words!   The Holy Spirit takes us by the hand from verses 11 down to sixteen to help us to see in what sense water baptism saves those who are baptized!  Do you have eyes to see it?

Well now Red, let's go ahead an include vs. 17-18, Jesus supposedly said all this in the same breath.

Are you going to take up serpents and drink any deadly thing with your faith?

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Baptism views?
« Reply #76 on: Fri Dec 26, 2014 - 16:32:11 »
Charlie24
Quote
Yes Red, baptism does save in a sense. The sense in which Peter gave, a symbol.
Peter never gave baptism as a symbol. 1 Peter 3:21, water from the flood symbolized baptism.  Baptism never symbolized anything in Peter's writings. Peter said baptism: 1. saves us . . . through the resurrection of Jesus Christ  2. is an appeal to God for a/of a good conscious.      Both

Offline Charlie24

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Re: Baptism views?
« Reply #77 on: Fri Dec 26, 2014 - 16:38:42 »
Charlie24
Quote
Yes Red, baptism does save in a sense. The sense in which Peter gave, a symbol.
Peter never gave baptism as a symbol. 1 Peter 3:21, water from the flood symbolized baptism.  Baptism never symbolized anything in Peter's writings. Peter said baptism: 1. saves us . . . through the resurrection of Jesus Christ  2. is an appeal to God for a/of a good conscious.      Both

If you have a reference edition Bible (KJV), look at 1Peter 3:21. You will find in the notes an undeniable word in Greek "the like figure" that means a symbol. It can be a symbol of "some thing" or "someone." It's called an anti-type.

Offline Red Baker

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Re: Baptism views?
« Reply #78 on: Fri Dec 26, 2014 - 16:40:02 »
Well now Red, let's go ahead an include vs. 17-18, Jesus supposedly said all this in the same breath.
Are you going to take up serpents and drink any deadly thing with your faith?

Well Charlie, my friend, I have, and guess what? So have you! 

Luke 10:19

  .
  "Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you."

Charlie, in my Christian walk through this world, I have encounter many deadly serpent (false prophets and their teachings) and through ignorance drunk of their deadly poison, and so has every child of God!  I only gave you one scriptures to consider, and there are many more concerning this subject~but I believe my point has been made clear enough.   
« Last Edit: Fri Dec 26, 2014 - 16:42:14 by Red Baker »

Offline Charlie24

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Re: Baptism views?
« Reply #79 on: Fri Dec 26, 2014 - 16:43:08 »
Well now Red, let's go ahead an include vs. 17-18, Jesus supposedly said all this in the same breath.
Are you going to take up serpents and drink any deadly thing with your faith?

Well Charlie, my friend, I have, and guess what? So have you! 

Luke 10:19

  .
  "Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you."

Charlie, in my Christian walk through this world, I have encounter many deadly serpent (false prophets and their teachings) and through ignorance drunk of their deadly poison, and so have every child of God!  I only gave you one scriptures to consider, and there are many more considering this subject~but I believe my point has been made clear enough.

Wow! talk about taking something out of context.

"it shall not hurt them"   "and they shall recover"

Red, come on man.

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Baptism views?
« Reply #80 on: Fri Dec 26, 2014 - 17:39:41 »
Jaime, thank you.

Charlie24,
Quote
God's prescribed order is faith in the DBR of Jesus Christ.
God's prescribed order was first Repent and believe the good news of the kingdom of God, the DBR came later. Matthew 4:17, 23,  Acts 8:12,  28:23, 31.

Quote
We're talking about grace. Water baptism has no part in grace through faith for salvation.
Grace is just a characteristic or quality of God. Any part of getting saved, including baptism, is because God is gracious to us. Grace is not a substance that is sprinkled on us. We're saved because God us gracious toward us. Baptism in Jesus's name for forgiveness of sins has no conflict in this. Besides, if baptism had any conflict with God's gracious nature, it would be stated somewhere in the Bible. Like I said, these supposed conflicts are completely commentator invented. It's their opinion.

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Water baptism cannot be placed as part of God's grace, that is, salvation. If so, the grace is cancelled out.
This would only be true if the Bible said this. It doesn't.

Offline Charlie24

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Re: Baptism views?
« Reply #81 on: Fri Dec 26, 2014 - 17:54:54 »
Last I heard, salvation is a free gift, nothing upon nothing can we do to earn it.

Now what is someone doing when they say, I HAVE TO BE BAPTIZED TO BE SAVED?

Are you not doing something to earn that free gift? Are you not taking physical action upon your self to earn that salvation?

Of course you don't see it this way. That's fine with me, I was just giving you something to think about.

Offline Norton

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Re: Baptism views?
« Reply #82 on: Fri Dec 26, 2014 - 18:07:17 »
Charlie24
Quote
Yes Red, baptism does save in a sense. The sense in which Peter gave, a symbol.
Peter never gave baptism as a symbol. 1 Peter 3:21, water from the flood symbolized baptism.  Baptism never symbolized anything in Peter's writings. Peter said baptism: 1. saves us . . . through the resurrection of Jesus Christ  2. is an appeal to God for a/of a good conscious.      Both

If you have a reference edition Bible (KJV), look at 1Peter 3:21. You will find in the notes an undeniable word in Greek "the like figure" that means a symbol. It can be a symbol of "some thing" or "someone." It's called an anti-type.
I understand the laying on of the hands of the apostles to be a symbol done in the name of Christ. It seems that the laying on of hands actually imparted the Holy Spirit, healed, and commissioned. Why is it so unbelievable that a symbol of cleansing done in the name of Christ can actually cleanse and impart the Holy Spirit? If Christ didn't give the church the authority to perform such a symbol of cleansing, we should stop doing it altogether.

Offline Jaime

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Re: Baptism views?
« Reply #83 on: Fri Dec 26, 2014 - 18:15:03 »
As you say Charlie, nothing can earn or merit salvation. I agree. Baptism does neither, it is simply God's way of doing His work. I woulda come up with something different, but hey He's God.

If aomeone claims being baptized merits or earns any part if salvation, they are wrong.
« Last Edit: Fri Dec 26, 2014 - 18:23:22 by Jaime »

Offline Charlie24

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Re: Baptism views?
« Reply #84 on: Fri Dec 26, 2014 - 18:20:57 »
Charlie24
Quote
Yes Red, baptism does save in a sense. The sense in which Peter gave, a symbol.
Peter never gave baptism as a symbol. 1 Peter 3:21, water from the flood symbolized baptism.  Baptism never symbolized anything in Peter's writings. Peter said baptism: 1. saves us . . . through the resurrection of Jesus Christ  2. is an appeal to God for a/of a good conscious.      Both

If you have a reference edition Bible (KJV), look at 1Peter 3:21. You will find in the notes an undeniable word in Greek "the like figure" that means a symbol. It can be a symbol of "some thing" or "someone." It's called an anti-type.
I understand the laying on of the hands of the apostles to be a symbol done in the name of Christ. It seems that the laying on of hands actually imparted the Holy Spirit, healed, and commissioned. Why is it so unbelievable that a symbol of cleansing done in the name of Christ can actually cleanse and impart the Holy Spirit? If Christ didn't give the church the authority to perform such a symbol of cleansing, we should stop doing it altogether.

It's only the blood of Jesus Christ that cleanses sin, not water. Not even going through water to get to the blood will work.

Why is it so unbelievable that the blood of Christ alone can save? What has water to do with defeating the curse of sin on mankind? Wasn't the purpose of John's baptism to point to the One who would provide the forgivness for sins?

Are we actually saying we need to go through the water to get to the forgiveness of sins because the blood of Christ is not enough? I wonder how Christ looks at that.

Offline Jaime

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Re: Baptism views?
« Reply #85 on: Fri Dec 26, 2014 - 18:34:57 »
No one disagrees that the blood of Christ cleanses sin. You disagree that happens in the water if baptism. It's NOT water vs blood.

Water is just water without the blood of Christ doing the cleansing IN baptism.

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Baptism views?
« Reply #86 on: Fri Dec 26, 2014 - 18:37:20 »
Charlie24,
Quote
If you have a reference edition Bible (KJV), look at 1Peter 3:21. You will find in the notes an undeniable word in Greek "the like figure" that means a symbol. It can be a symbol of "some thing" or "someone." It's called an anti-type.
You did not hear me say the word symbol doesn't exist in 1st Peter, so why are you addressing something I didn't state? I just get the impression (and I could be wrong), that you're avoiding either consciously or subconsciously what I actually stated.
Let's try again and see if you will address what was originally stated.
1 Peter 3:21 says that baptism is symbolized by the water from the flood, Peter never said that baptism symbolizes anything. You can't just find the word symbol in there (like figure) and use that to change the structure of the sentence. If you can find where it says the whole statement Baptism's purpose is to symbolize yada yada... then you will have made a point. Finding the word symbol in a sentence, doesn't change the structure of the sentence to your favor.
« Last Edit: Fri Dec 26, 2014 - 19:37:36 by e.r.m. »

Offline Charlie24

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Re: Baptism views?
« Reply #87 on: Fri Dec 26, 2014 - 18:50:53 »
Interpret it the way you see it. That's what you will do anyway. It's what I've done.

Catch you later erm.

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Re: Baptism views?
« Reply #88 on: Fri Dec 26, 2014 - 19:13:22 »
Charlie24,
Quote
Last I heard, salvation is a free gift, nothing upon nothing can we do to earn it.

Now what is someone doing when they say, I HAVE TO BE BAPTIZED TO BE SAVED?

Are you not doing something to earn that free gift? Are you not taking physical action upon your self to earn that salvation?

Of course you don't see it this way. That's fine with me, I was just giving you something to think about.
If you learn to think "Biblically" instead of using extra-Biblical arguments, it would help you to see a lot of things.
The NT authors never expressed concerns about people thinking they had "earned" salvation.
The NT authors never said that doing something conflicted with getting saved.
The NT authors never once said doing anything physical was equivalent to one thinking they earned salvation.

Within Biblical discussion, there is no context from which to make a conclusion that getting baptized has anything to do with trying to earn salvation. If this was any kind of concern to the Bible authors, somebody might have given at least one word of warning to the people not to think of baptism more than it deserved. The fact that they did have this conversation about circumcision shows that they had the capacity to do so, but they left baptism alone.
All these arguments were not Biblical concerns. They are straw man concerns created by commentators. Non-Biblical arguments hold no significance. Show me scripture.
« Last Edit: Fri Dec 26, 2014 - 20:57:55 by e.r.m. »

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Baptism views?
« Reply #89 on: Fri Dec 26, 2014 - 19:31:32 »
Charlie24,
Quote
Interpret it the way you see it. That's what you will do anyway. It's what I've done.

Catch you later erm.
Who's interpreting anything? There is is statement by Peter that say "Baptism symbolizes..." or "Baptism is a like figure unto" (the whole phrase). There's no interpretation to that, it's just not written. More importantly though, he doesn't give a symbolic "purpose" to baptism.
« Last Edit: Fri Dec 26, 2014 - 19:35:44 by e.r.m. »

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Baptism views?
« Reply #90 on: Fri Dec 26, 2014 - 19:59:48 »
Charlie24,
Quote
It's only the blood of Jesus Christ that cleanses sin, not water. Not even going through water to get to the blood will work.

Why is it so unbelievable that the blood of Christ alone can save?
If it was the blood of Christ alone, without man's response required, then not even faith would be necessary, cause it would be the blood alone. We've said too many times to count. Repeating "blood alone" enough times will not make it seem normal. The word of God speaks louder than repetition. "Blood alone" is not Biblical talk.

Quote
What has water to do with defeating the curse of sin on mankind?
It has to do what the Holy Spirit says through Peter it has to with: baptized in Jesus's name for forgiveness of sins and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit Acts 2:38.

Quote
Wasn't the purpose of John's baptism to point to the One who would provide the forgiveness for sins?
John's baptism is not baptism in Jesus's name for the forgiveness of sins Acts 2:38, 4:12, 19:3-6.

Quote
Are we actually saying we need to go through the water to get to the forgiveness of sins
No, the Bible is saying that.

Quote
because the blood of Christ is not enough? I wonder how Christ looks at that.
I think he would think about this differently than you. Jesus himself made baptism a part of getting saved Mark 16:16.
« Last Edit: Fri Dec 26, 2014 - 22:53:25 by e.r.m. »

Offline Norton

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Re: Baptism views?
« Reply #91 on: Fri Dec 26, 2014 - 21:42:10 »
Charlie24
Quote
Yes Red, baptism does save in a sense. The sense in which Peter gave, a symbol.
Peter never gave baptism as a symbol. 1 Peter 3:21, water from the flood symbolized baptism.  Baptism never symbolized anything in Peter's writings. Peter said baptism: 1. saves us . . . through the resurrection of Jesus Christ  2. is an appeal to God for a/of a good conscious.      Both


If you have a reference edition Bible (KJV), look at 1Peter 3:21. You will find in the notes an undeniable word in Greek "the like figure" that means a symbol. It can be a symbol of "some thing" or "someone." It's called an anti-type.
I understand the laying on of the hands of the apostles to be a symbol done in the name of Christ. It seems that the laying on of hands actually imparted the Holy Spirit, healed, and commissioned. Why is it so unbelievable that a symbol of cleansing done in the name of Christ can actually cleanse and impart the Holy Spirit? If Christ didn't give the church the authority to perform such a symbol of cleansing, we should stop doing it altogether.

It's only the blood of Jesus Christ that cleanses sin, not water. Not even going through water to get to the blood will work.

Why is it so unbelievable that the blood of Christ alone can save? What has water to do with defeating the curse of sin on mankind? Wasn't the purpose of John's baptism to point to the One who would provide the forgivness for sins?

Are we actually saying we need to go through the water to get to the forgiveness of sins because the blood of Christ is not enough? I wonder how Christ looks at that.
So if we are saved by the blood of Christ alone, does that mean we have no need to go through water or the Holy Spirit?  I Cor 6:10 "But you were washed you were sanctified, you were justified..... by the Spirit of our God. That doesn't mean Christ's blood is not enough to cleanse. I say again, We are washed by water and by the Spirit because we believe the blood of Christ will cleanse us from sin. Someone may possibly get to the blood of Christ without going through water. He will have no luck getting there without going through the Holy Spirit.

Offline Red Baker

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Re: Baptism views?
« Reply #92 on: Sat Dec 27, 2014 - 03:51:33 »
Wow! talk about taking something out of context.

Charlie, is that your best effort?  I said not one thing out of context, unless you want to join up with those men in the mountains of Kentucky and handle snakes literally to prove your faith. We have done what any wise interpreter would do, by allowing scriptures to interpret themselves for us so we will not end up looking under every rock in West Texas for a rattlesnake, just to prove Mark 16:17,18~the safest route would just turn to such scriptures as Luke 10:19, and Psalm 91:11-13 and believe them, so that they would help us to understand Mark 16:17,18~for these scriptures are for us today, as much as they were for them that first heard them. 
« Last Edit: Sat Dec 27, 2014 - 04:31:54 by Red Baker »

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Re: Baptism views?
« Reply #93 on: Sat Dec 27, 2014 - 03:56:13 »
Charlie24
Quote
Yes Red, baptism does save in a sense. The sense in which Peter gave, a symbol.
Peter never gave baptism as a symbol. 1 Peter 3:21, water from the flood symbolized baptism.  Baptism never symbolized anything in Peter's writings. Peter said baptism: 1. saves us . . . through the resurrection of Jesus Christ  2. is an appeal to God for a/of a good conscious.      Both

If you have a reference edition Bible (KJV), look at 1Peter 3:21. You will find in the notes an undeniable word in Greek "the like figure" that means a symbol. It can be a symbol of "some thing" or "someone." It's called an anti-type.
I understand the laying on of the hands of the apostles to be a symbol done in the name of Christ. It seems that the laying on of hands actually imparted the Holy Spirit, healed, and commissioned. Why is it so unbelievable that a symbol of cleansing done in the name of Christ can actually cleanse and impart the Holy Spirit? If Christ didn't give the church the authority to perform such a symbol of cleansing, we should stop doing it altogether.

It's only the blood of Jesus Christ that cleanses sin, not water. Not even going through water to get to the blood will work.

Why is it so unbelievable that the blood of Christ alone can save? What has water to do with defeating the curse of sin on mankind? Wasn't the purpose of John's baptism to point to the One who would provide the forgivness for sins?

Are we actually saying we need to go through the water to get to the forgiveness of sins because the blood of Christ is not enough? I wonder how Christ looks at that.


 I agree, the baptism is symbolising what has already happened to us in the spirit. We have already been adopted and are already His child when we are baptised. Even if we arent baptised for whatever reason, we will still be with Him if we die first. 

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Re: Baptism views?
« Reply #94 on: Sat Dec 27, 2014 - 09:37:57 »
Rom. 6:3 is a specific baptism.

Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

We are baptized into Jesus Christ. This is not water, it is a spiritual baptism, it is figurative.
   This is not what the word teaches it is mans opinion but far from what was actually written in Gods word.


Lets look at what Jesus last words were to his Apostles before he left earth to return to his throne in heaven.

Quote
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Matt 28:18-20 (KJV)

Quote
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Mark 16:15-16 (KJV)

Quote
And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 And ye are witnesses of these things. 49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.
Luke 24:46-49 (KJV)

Now the question is did they teach what they were told and did the Spirit bring it all to there recollection as was promised. If we answer this honestly we will has to admit that yes they did and it was all explained from the word the word will settle this matter if only allowed to do so.

Now that was before Peter used the keys to open the doors to the kingdom as he was given

Quote
And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 And ye are witnesses of these things. 49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.
Luke 24:46-49 (KJV)

But in Acts 2 we read where Peter did use the keys to open the doors to the kingdom and see that the Spirit filled him with he promised knowledge of what they were to teach.

Peter Preached Christ crucified and resurrected and the one they rejected as the Lord and savior and as told he preached repentance and baptism in Christ name for remission of sin.

Quote
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 2:38 (KJV)

Peter taught that is how we are to receive the indwelling spirit. It is given through the baptism in Christ name.

This is not the only place we see that Jesus was taught and the baptism was administered but every scene following the teaching of the gospel it was taught the same way. Jesus was taught and then they were baptized just as in acts 2. Read Acts 8 all follow the same pattern as Acts 2 Jesus was preached and they were baptized in Christ name and Acts 9 even Paul had to do the same as those in Acts 2. In all the recorded conversions it is all the same Jesus preached and they are to be baptized in Christ name.

Now that is what Romans 6 refers to is the baptism in Christ name as of Acts 2 and all others where Jesus was taught and they were baptized into his name. It is a water baptism and the word confirms it as such and one can not honestly deny it for it is made clear in Acts 10.

Quote
Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
Acts 10:47-48 (KJV)

Here we clearly read that the baptism in Jesus name (Acts 2:38) is a water baptism and we know from Acts 2:38 it is for the remission of sin and the giving of the indwelling spirit. The word clarifies through Paul that the spirit is given through the baptism in Christ name.

Quote
1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, 2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. 3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. 4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Acts 19:1-5 (KJV)

If the baptism in Christ name did not give the indwelling spirit as Peter told in Acts 2:38 then why was Paul's question "Unto what then were ye baptized?"

So if one will let the bible speak for it self it becomes clear what the baptism in Christ name is and does for one spiritually.

If it is not because of the cross meaning that the cross gives it the biblical mean then why did Paul make a big deal to correct the Corinthians misunderstanding of  why the name is important?

Quote
Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
1 Cor 1:13 (KJV)

You are baptized in Christ name because he went to the cross for you. It is here we join Christ at the cross. Just as Paul explains in Romans 6:3ff

Yes we are cleansed by the blood that was shed on the cross and it is through the baptism in Christ name that it takes place just as Paul tries to get all to see.

OK lots more can be said but lost my train of thought and its to long already just something to ponder over. It is my understanding to you it my be in left field but to me it is scripture upon scripture with the bible explaining itself to those that want to see.

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Baptism views?
« Reply #95 on: Sat Dec 27, 2014 - 13:33:30 »
Chosenone,
Quote
 I agree, the baptism is symbolising what has already happened to us in the spirit. We have already been adopted and are already His child when we are baptised. Even if we arent baptised for whatever reason, we will still be with Him if we die first.
The Bible would have to say any of these things to be true. It doesn't.

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Re: Baptism views?
« Reply #96 on: Sat Dec 27, 2014 - 15:37:57 »
Yogi Bear,
Quote
Quote from: Charlie24 on Yesterday at 08:30:12 AM

Rom. 6:3 is a specific baptism.

Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

We are baptized into Jesus Christ. This is not water, it is a spiritual baptism, it is figurative.

   This is not what the word teaches it is mans opinion but far from what was actually written in Gods word.


Lets look at what Jesus last words were to his Apostles before he left earth to return to his throne in heaven.

Quote

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Matt 28:18-20 (KJV)


Quote

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. 
Mark 16:15-16 (KJV)


Quote

And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 And ye are witnesses of these things. 49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.
Luke 24:46-49 (KJV)


Now the question is did they teach what they were told and did the Spirit bring it all to there recollection as was promised. If we answer this honestly we will has to admit that yes they did and it was all explained from the word the word will settle this matter if only allowed to do so.

Now that was before Peter used the keys to open the doors to the kingdom as he was given 

Quote

And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 And ye are witnesses of these things. 49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.
Luke 24:46-49 (KJV)


But in Acts 2 we read where Peter did use the keys to open the doors to the kingdom and see that the Spirit filled him with he promised knowledge of what they were to teach.

Peter Preached Christ crucified and resurrected and the one they rejected as the Lord and savior and as told he preached repentance and baptism in Christ name for remission of sin.

Quote

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 
Acts 2:38 (KJV)


Peter taught that is how we are to receive the indwelling spirit. It is given through the baptism in Christ name.

This is not the only place we see that Jesus was taught and the baptism was administered but every scene following the teaching of the gospel it was taught the same way. Jesus was taught and then they were baptized just as in acts 2. Read Acts 8 all follow the same pattern as Acts 2 Jesus was preached and they were baptized in Christ name and Acts 9 even Paul had to do the same as those in Acts 2. In all the recorded conversions it is all the same Jesus preached and they are to be baptized in Christ name.

Now that is what Romans 6 refers to is the baptism in Christ name as of Acts 2 and all others where Jesus was taught and they were baptized into his name. It is a water baptism and the word confirms it as such and one can not honestly deny it for it is made clear in Acts 10.

Quote

Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
Acts 10:47-48 (KJV)


Here we clearly read that the baptism in Jesus name (Acts 2:38) is a water baptism and we know from Acts 2:38 it is for the remission of sin and the giving of the indwelling spirit. The word clarifies through Paul that the spirit is given through the baptism in Christ name.

Quote

1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, 2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. 3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. 4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 
Acts 19:1-5 (KJV)


If the baptism in Christ name did not give the indwelling spirit as Peter told in Acts 2:38 then why was Paul's question "Unto what then were ye baptized?"

So if one will let the bible speak for it self it becomes clear what the baptism in Christ name is and does for one spiritually.

If it is not because of the cross meaning that the cross gives it the biblical mean then why did Paul make a big deal to correct the Corinthians misunderstanding of  why the name is important?

Quote

Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
1 Cor 1:13 (KJV)


You are baptized in Christ name because he went to the cross for you. It is here we join Christ at the cross. Just as Paul explains in Romans 6:3ff 

Yes we are cleansed by the blood that was shed on the cross and it is through the baptism in Christ name that it takes place just as Paul tries to get all to see.

OK lots more can be said but lost my train of thought and its to long already just something to ponder over. It is my understanding to you it my be in left field but to me it is scripture upon scripture with the bible explaining itself to those that want to.
Very good breaking down of scripture and scripture comparison. Well explained.

Offline Charlie24

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Re: Baptism views?
« Reply #97 on: Sat Dec 27, 2014 - 16:52:58 »
Paul says it agin in Gal.3:26-27.

For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
 
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

See here the connection of faith and baptism into Christ. Do you see how the word "for" connects the same thought pattern. This is the Baptism into the Body of Christ. It's our salvation.

He says it again in 1Cor. 12:12-13.

For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
 
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Here again this is the Baptism into the Body of Christ. This is not water. It's our salvation.

He says it again in Eph. 4:4-6.

There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
 
One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
 
One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

This "one baptism" is not water baptism. It is our salvation in being Baptized into the Body of Christ.

Paul mentions the Baptism into the Body of Christ again, in a different way in Titus 3:4-6

But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
 
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
 
Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

Here again this refers to our salvation, Baptism into the Body of Christ.

Paul does mention water baptism in 1Cor. 1:17

For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

You guys are making a very serious mistake by thinking Paul is speaking of water baptism throughout his epistles.


 

Offline Charlie24

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Re: Baptism views?
« Reply #98 on: Sat Dec 27, 2014 - 17:09:56 »
You can bet your very last dollar, if salvation took place at water baptism, Paul would not have said "Christ sent me not to baptize.

He would have been the king of baptizers!!!

Offline Jaime

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Re: Baptism views?
« Reply #99 on: Sat Dec 27, 2014 - 17:21:02 »
Oaul would have many baptizers with him. His gift was preaching. Just like my preacher does little if any baptizing. Any Christian can baptize, not every chriistian can preach. If the ONE baptism was different than the 3000 partook of, theirs would have been rescinded. It was not Charlie. Water does not have to be specified when the word baptism is used any more than a necessity of prefacing it with Spirit.

The 3000 experienced water and the Spirit, and remission of sin, by the blood of Christ IN the baptism.

Offline Charlie24

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Re: Baptism views?
« Reply #100 on: Sat Dec 27, 2014 - 17:27:39 »
Oaul would have many baptizers with him. His gift was preaching. Just like my preacher does little if any baptizing. Any Christian can baptize, not every chriistian can preach. If the ONE baptism was different than the 3000 partook of, theirs would have been rescinded. It was not Charlie. Water does not have to be specified when the word baptism is used any more than a necessity of prefacing it with Spirit.

The 3000 experienced water and the Spirit, and remission of sin, by the blood of Christ IN the baptism.

With all due respect Jaime, that is not how they received it.

Offline Jaime

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Re: Baptism views?
« Reply #101 on: Sat Dec 27, 2014 - 17:33:25 »
With all due respect, yes it was! They repented and were baptized in order to receive remission of sin, and the gift if the Holy spirit as Peter told them. And the word water did not have to be mentioned.
« Last Edit: Sat Dec 27, 2014 - 17:38:57 by Jaime »

Offline Charlie24

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Re: Baptism views?
« Reply #102 on: Sat Dec 27, 2014 - 17:42:36 »
They were saved (baptized into the body of Christ) the very second they believed Peter's sermon.

THEN THEY WHO GLADLY RECEIVED HIS WORD WERE BAPTIZED. (Water Baptized)

Offline Jaime

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Re: Baptism views?
« Reply #103 on: Sat Dec 27, 2014 - 18:05:40 »
No they experienced Godly sorrow when their hearts wer pricked. Paul stated that Godly sorrow leads to repentance, which was exactly what Peter told the 3000 to do AND be baptized.  Which they did and received the promised forgiveness of sin and the gift of the Spirit.

Offline Charlie24

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Re: Baptism views?
« Reply #104 on: Sat Dec 27, 2014 - 18:12:58 »
They couldn't help but have Godly sorrow all through that sermon.

The sermon created total anger, which resulted in rejection. Or Godly sorrow which leads to repentance.

The scripture says, when they heard this they were pricked in their heart.

Godly sorrow is evident, they said to Pater, what shall we do?

 

     
anything