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Offline s1n4m1n

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Deacons and CENI
« on: Mon Dec 01, 2008 - 13:48:09 »
1 Timothy 3:8-10 - Likewise deacons must be reverent, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy for money, holding the mystery of the faith with a pure conscience. But let these also first be proved; then let them serve as deacons; being found blameless.

1 Timothy 3:13 - For those who served well as deacons obtain for themselves a good standing and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

What I'm trying to find out is if 1)using only the Bible, 2)making no assumptions and 3)using CENI is it possible to come to a knowledge of what "service" the deacons provided?

If that service is not specified what then? Or if it is specified is it alright to "go beyond what is written" and to included other types of service?

Ken

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Deacons and CENI
« on: Mon Dec 01, 2008 - 13:48:09 »

Offline notofmyown

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Re: Deacons and CENI
« Reply #1 on: Mon Dec 01, 2008 - 14:55:10 »
Surely you know by now that CENI is the magic bullet that lets you approve or condemn anything.  Of course you can use CENI to define what service is ok approved for a deacon.......on the other hand you could use CENI to show that the service you just approved is unacceptable......confused yet? yea thats how I feel when trying to honestly apply CENI to scripture.

Offline Lee Freeman

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Re: Deacons and CENI
« Reply #2 on: Mon Dec 01, 2008 - 17:39:04 »
1 Timothy 3:8-10 - Likewise deacons must be reverent, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy for money, holding the mystery of the faith with a pure conscience. But let these also first be proved; then let them serve as deacons; being found blameless.

1 Timothy 3:13 - For those who served well as deacons obtain for themselves a good standing and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

What I'm trying to find out is if 1)using only the Bible, 2)making no assumptions and 3)using CENI is it possible to come to a knowledge of what "service" the deacons provided?

If that service is not specified what then? Or if it is specified is it alright to "go beyond what is written" and to included other types of service?

Ken

Acts 6 gives us an idea. The seven in Acts 6 were specifically appointed to oversee the food distribution so that no one was left out. Deacons were apparently only appointed after a spefic need was observed in the church. And anyway, the word diakonos simply means "one who ministers," or "one who serves." The first deacons didn't hold an office in the church, but served a necessary and practical service role.

However the way CENI is often employed is at best haphazard. For example, male elders and deacons are viewed as a God-mandated command based upon I Timothy 3:1-12 (we have both a command and an example here), yet enrolling widows over 60 on a roll based upon I Timothy 5:9-10 isn't (which has a necessary inference). And the fact that Paul refers to Phoebe as a deacon in Romans 16:1 is ignored or explained away.

Pax.
« Last Edit: Mon Dec 01, 2008 - 17:47:04 by Lee Freeman »

HRoberson

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Re: Deacons and CENI
« Reply #3 on: Wed Dec 03, 2008 - 23:36:36 »
1 Timothy 3:8-10 - Likewise deacons must be reverent, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy for money, holding the mystery of the faith with a pure conscience. But let these also first be proved; then let them serve as deacons; being found blameless.

1 Timothy 3:13 - For those who served well as deacons obtain for themselves a good standing and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

What I'm trying to find out is if 1)using only the Bible, 2)making no assumptions and 3)using CENI is it possible to come to a knowledge of what "service" the deacons provided?

If that service is not specified what then? Or if it is specified is it alright to "go beyond what is written" and to included other types of service?

Ken
CENI wouldn't be the problem. Its corollary, the Universal Law of Silence however, would result in having deacons who don't do anything (because we aren't told what they might do, and therefore cannot add anything that silence doesn't allow (e.g., nothing)).

Which, if we were allowed to pay deacons, would be the job I'd want - a paycheck and nothing required for it! Cool.

Offline s1n4m1n

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Re: Deacons and CENI
« Reply #4 on: Thu Dec 04, 2008 - 09:00:04 »
1 Timothy 3:8-10 - Likewise deacons must be reverent, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy for money, holding the mystery of the faith with a pure conscience. But let these also first be proved; then let them serve as deacons; being found blameless.

1 Timothy 3:13 - For those who served well as deacons obtain for themselves a good standing and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

What I'm trying to find out is if 1)using only the Bible, 2)making no assumptions and 3)using CENI is it possible to come to a knowledge of what "service" the deacons provided?

If that service is not specified what then? Or if it is specified is it alright to "go beyond what is written" and to included other types of service?

Ken
CENI wouldn't be the problem. Its corollary, the Universal Law of Silence however, would result in having deacons who don't do anything (because we aren't told what they might do, and therefore cannot add anything that silence doesn't allow (e.g., nothing)).

Hey, I didn't make the rules. However, I thought that the Law of Silence was only active when a thing was specificed, or is that the Law of Exclusion? Apparently, from typical CoC practice, silence on this subject means deacons are authorized to do anything a congregation sees fit to authorize. IOW the Law of Silence provides for freedom of action.
 



Quote
Which, if we were allowed to pay deacons, would be the job I'd want - a paycheck and nothing required for it! Cool.

Sign me up too! Maybe that's why deacons are not to be greedy for money.


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Re: Deacons and CENI
« Reply #4 on: Thu Dec 04, 2008 - 09:00:04 »



Offline s1n4m1n

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Re: Deacons and CENI
« Reply #5 on: Thu Dec 04, 2008 - 09:18:01 »
Here is a short article in the Christian Courier about the Law of Silence: Hebrews 7:14 and the Law of Silence

The conclusion:

Quote
If God does not authorize a religious practice, it is forbidden. This principle absolutely must be respected. Underline, therefore, the terms “spake nothing

Offline Lee Freeman

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Re: Deacons and CENI
« Reply #6 on: Thu Dec 04, 2008 - 14:47:56 »
Here is a short article in the Christian Courier about the Law of Silence: Hebrews 7:14 and the Law of Silence

The conclusion:

Quote
If God does not authorize a religious practice, it is forbidden. This principle absolutely must be respected. Underline, therefore, the terms “spake nothing

Offline s1n4m1n

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Re: Deacons and CENI
« Reply #7 on: Thu Dec 04, 2008 - 15:35:54 »
Here is a short article in the Christian Courier about the Law of Silence: Hebrews 7:14 and the Law of Silence

The conclusion:

Quote
If God does not authorize a religious practice, it is forbidden. This principle absolutely must be respected. Underline, therefore, the terms “spake nothing” in Hebrews 7:14, and marginally observe: Silence is prohibitive.


So there we go! It is strange that God authorized deacons (since they existed in the Church with apparent apostolic approval) yet did not authorize them to do anything (since the Bible is silent as to their activities). After all God "spake nothing" as to the function of the deacons.

Ken


According to Acts 6 the first decaons were chosen to oversee the food distribution to Grecian widows. I am, of course, inferring, that the seven were deacons, however CENI allows for inferences, and I've read commentary by CoC authors that argue the seven were deacons.

Pax.


CENI allows for "necessary inferences". What is the necessary inference that the Seven were deacons?

Offline Lee Freeman

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Re: Deacons and CENI
« Reply #8 on: Thu Dec 04, 2008 - 15:50:16 »
Here is a short article in the Christian Courier about the Law of Silence: Hebrews 7:14 and the Law of Silence

The conclusion:

Quote
If God does not authorize a religious practice, it is forbidden. This principle absolutely must be respected. Underline, therefore, the terms “spake nothing

Offline s1n4m1n

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Re: Deacons and CENI
« Reply #9 on: Thu Dec 04, 2008 - 16:15:31 »
Here is a short article in the Christian Courier about the Law of Silence: Hebrews 7:14 and the Law of Silence

The conclusion:

Quote
If God does not authorize a religious practice, it is forbidden. This principle absolutely must be respected. Underline, therefore, the terms “spake nothing” in Hebrews 7:14, and marginally observe: Silence is prohibitive.


So there we go! It is strange that God authorized deacons (since they existed in the Church with apparent apostolic approval) yet did not authorize them to do anything (since the Bible is silent as to their activities). After all God "spake nothing" as to the function of the deacons.

Ken


According to Acts 6 the first decaons were chosen to oversee the food distribution to Grecian widows. I am, of course, inferring, that the seven were deacons, however CENI allows for inferences, and I've read commentary by CoC authors that argue the seven were deacons.

Pax.


CENI allows for "necessary inferences". What is the necessary inference that the Seven were deacons?


That the Greek word translated deacon simply means "one who serves," and the seven served by waiting on tables. They don't seem to have been given the specific task of congregational oversight and teaching that elders were given in I Timothy and Titus, and the text doesn't indicate that they were appointed as evangelists-the apostles themselves in the text state that they couldn't neglect their evangelistic duties to oversee the food distribution.

Applying the type of Church-of-Christ-Logic I grew up on, if they were appointed, yet weren't elders or evangelists, they must've been deacons. Because that's the only other position or office left.

Pax.


Whether that is a necessary inference or not I can't say. If it is and the Seven were deacons appointed to distribute food then doesn't the Law of Silence dictate that the work of deacons is to distribute food. I mean it is the only example that we have of what deacons did, except perhaps for Phoebe delivering some letters.

I realize your arguing from the CoC logic and it isn't necessarily your own.

Offline zoonance

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Re: Deacons and CENI
« Reply #10 on: Thu Dec 04, 2008 - 17:00:40 »
Our Phoebe delivers some good posts, that is kind of like delivering some letters.    Don't know if she delivers food.  I wish she would!

Offline Johnb

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Re: Deacons and CENI
« Reply #11 on: Thu Dec 04, 2008 - 17:17:37 »
So when we have a pot luck would it be the deacons job to fill the plates for  the widows and take it to their table?

Offline Lee Freeman

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Re: Deacons and CENI
« Reply #12 on: Thu Dec 04, 2008 - 17:26:40 »
Here is a short article in the Christian Courier about the Law of Silence: Hebrews 7:14 and the Law of Silence

The conclusion:

Quote
If God does not authorize a religious practice, it is forbidden. This principle absolutely must be respected. Underline, therefore, the terms “spake nothing” in Hebrews 7:14, and marginally observe: Silence is prohibitive.


So there we go! It is strange that God authorized deacons (since they existed in the Church with apparent apostolic approval) yet did not authorize them to do anything (since the Bible is silent as to their activities). After all God "spake nothing" as to the function of the deacons.

Ken


According to Acts 6 the first decaons were chosen to oversee the food distribution to Grecian widows. I am, of course, inferring, that the seven were deacons, however CENI allows for inferences, and I've read commentary by CoC authors that argue the seven were deacons.

Pax.


CENI allows for "necessary inferences". What is the necessary inference that the Seven were deacons?


That the Greek word translated deacon simply means "one who serves," and the seven served by waiting on tables. They don't seem to have been given the specific task of congregational oversight and teaching that elders were given in I Timothy and Titus, and the text doesn't indicate that they were appointed as evangelists-the apostles themselves in the text state that they couldn't neglect their evangelistic duties to oversee the food distribution.

Applying the type of Church-of-Christ-Logic I grew up on, if they were appointed, yet weren't elders or evangelists, they must've been deacons. Because that's the only other position or office left.

Pax.


Whether that is a necessary inference or not I can't say. If it is and the Seven were deacons appointed to distribute food then doesn't the Law of Silence dictate that the work of deacons is to distribute food. I mean it is the only example that we have of what deacons did, except perhaps for Phoebe delivering some letters.

I realize your arguing from the CoC logic and it isn't necessarily your own.


Which simply points out how inconsistently we have used CENI.

Pax.

Offline zoonance

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Re: Deacons and CENI
« Reply #13 on: Thu Dec 04, 2008 - 17:32:26 »
I would still suggest that CENI is neither to be elevated to deity status nor lowered to satanic influence.   It is a tool.   A good one.  There are a number of good tools available.

Offline Jimbob

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Re: Deacons and CENI
« Reply #14 on: Thu Dec 04, 2008 - 18:02:00 »
So when we have a pot luck would it be the deacons job to fill the plates for  the widows and take it to their table?
You may or may not be kidding, but in truth, I think that would certainly be a Christ-like think from them to do. 

HRoberson

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Re: Deacons and CENI
« Reply #15 on: Thu Dec 04, 2008 - 20:28:34 »
I thought that the Law of Silence was only active when a thing was specificed, or is that the Law of Exclusion? Apparently, from typical CoC practice, silence on this subject means deacons are authorized to do anything a congregation sees fit to authorize. IOW the Law of Silence provides for freedom of action.
 

The Universal Law of Silence prohibits anything that is not specifically allowed. It is a corollary to CENI because if you don't have a C, E, or NI, you cannot do it.

Period.

End of story.

On the other hand, as someone has observed, if I want to do it, then I simply have to decide that "it" is a necessary inference for me. CENI is actually more inclusive than the ULS.

HRoberson

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Re: Deacons and CENI
« Reply #16 on: Thu Dec 04, 2008 - 20:30:31 »
So when we have a pot luck would it be the deacons job to fill the plates for  the widows and take it to their table?

For however many Greek widows you might have in your congregation.

Every other widow is on her own.
« Last Edit: Thu Dec 04, 2008 - 21:42:14 by HRoberson »

HRoberson

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Re: Deacons and CENI
« Reply #17 on: Thu Dec 04, 2008 - 20:31:24 »
So when we have a pot luck would it be the deacons job to fill the plates for  the widows and take it to their table?
You may or may not be kidding, but in truth, I think that would certainly be a Christ-like think from them to do. 

We're not interested in Christ-like behavior here. We want to know what the rules are.

Offline Norton

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Re: Deacons and CENI
« Reply #18 on: Thu Dec 04, 2008 - 21:17:30 »
There is an elder in my church that always fixes the drinks, non- alcoholic of course, at church fellowships. He may be jeopardizing his soul by going beyond his Biblical authority, but it impresses me.

Maybe I should warn him anyway.  Just joking.

HRoberson

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Re: Deacons and CENI
« Reply #19 on: Thu Dec 04, 2008 - 21:43:46 »
If you don't warn a guilty man, his blood will be on your head.

No, wait a minute....that's an OT rule.

Never mind.

Offline phoebe

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Re: Deacons and CENI
« Reply #20 on: Thu Dec 04, 2008 - 22:37:18 »
So when we have a pot luck would it be the deacons job to fill the plates for  the widows and take it to their table?

For however many Greek widows you might have in your congregation.

Every other widow is on her own.

Not just Greek widows, but TRUE Greek widows.

Offline s1n4m1n

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Re: Deacons and CENI
« Reply #21 on: Fri Dec 05, 2008 - 08:23:11 »
I thought that the Law of Silence was only active when a thing was specificed, or is that the Law of Exclusion? Apparently, from typical CoC practice, silence on this subject means deacons are authorized to do anything a congregation sees fit to authorize. IOW the Law of Silence provides for freedom of action.
 

The Universal Law of Silence prohibits anything that is not specifically allowed. It is a corollary to CENI because if you don't have a C, E, or NI, you cannot do it.

Period.

End of story.

On the other hand, as someone has observed, if I want to do it, then I simply have to decide that "it" is a necessary inference for me. CENI is actually more inclusive than the ULS.

I have to agree that, based on Wayne Jackson's article I linked, that it is taught that silence is exclusive. Yet I know from my own personel experience with the CoC that either the teaching is not that black and white or that its just not followed in practices. I'm thinking of two items in particular:

1) Church organization and decision making when no elders are available. This normally means a "men's business meeting" or a "congregational business meeting" or something like that. We actually had discussions about this and it was said and taught that if nothing is specified then we are at liberty to organized as best we see fit adhering to "Bible principles".

2) The great commission and "go and teach". It is taught that the command "go" is not specific (i.e. it is silent) about how to go and that even though we have apostolic examples of walking and riding boats those specific examples do not exclude other forms of transportation.

Now I would say that it appears that the ULS only applies to "commands", yet I know this is not true as the prohibition of taking the Lord's Supper only on Sunday is based purely on the example of Acts 20:7 and an inference in 1 Corinthians 16 and the fact that the Bible is silent on other days.

Ken

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Re: Deacons and CENI
« Reply #22 on: Fri Dec 05, 2008 - 10:07:20 »
Ken
I was once challenged to a debate in our church bullitens then later in Conteding for The Faith by Wayne.  This was over the Joy buss ministery.  We had him scheduled for a meeting and cancelled. 

As to the LS I don't even see the example as clear.  The term used in Acts 20:7 is breaking bread and is also used in Acts 2 and other places.  In Acts 2 they broke bread daily.  I have heard all the arguments but there is no way to seperate the 2.  Now in I Cor. 11 it is clear is said LS.  So I don't think they are consistant even on examples.

HRoberson

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Re: Deacons and CENI
« Reply #23 on: Fri Dec 05, 2008 - 18:03:23 »
I thought that the Law of Silence was only active when a thing was specificed, or is that the Law of Exclusion? Apparently, from typical CoC practice, silence on this subject means deacons are authorized to do anything a congregation sees fit to authorize. IOW the Law of Silence provides for freedom of action.
 

The Universal Law of Silence prohibits anything that is not specifically allowed. It is a corollary to CENI because if you don't have a C, E, or NI, you cannot do it.

Period.

End of story.

On the other hand, as someone has observed, if I want to do it, then I simply have to decide that "it" is a necessary inference for me. CENI is actually more inclusive than the ULS.

I have to agree that, based on Wayne Jackson's article I linked, that it is taught that silence is exclusive. Yet I know from my own personel experience with the CoC that either the teaching is not that black and white or that its just not followed in practices. I'm thinking of two items in particular:

1) Church organization and decision making when no elders are available. This normally means a "men's business meeting" or a "congregational business meeting" or something like that. We actually had discussions about this and it was said and taught that if nothing is specified then we are at liberty to organized as best we see fit adhering to "Bible principles".

2) The great commission and "go and teach". It is taught that the command "go" is not specific (i.e. it is silent) about how to go and that even though we have apostolic examples of walking and riding boats those specific examples do not exclude other forms of transportation.

Now I would say that it appears that the ULS only applies to "commands", yet I know this is not true as the prohibition of taking the Lord's Supper only on Sunday is based purely on the example of Acts 20:7 and an inference in 1 Corinthians 16 and the fact that the Bible is silent on other days.

Ken

So....you want us to be consistent?

Silly boy.  ::smile::

CENI is permissive. Therefore, if I can identify a C, E, or NI, then I can authorize myself to do it. As to the LS, the command is to take it; the E is that the early church did, and the NI is that we do it on Sundays. The ULS would prohibit us from taking it on Saturdays (assuming we didn't want to take it on Saturdays). If we wanted to take it on Saturdays, we would have a C for taking it, an E that the early church took it, and we would not consider it an NI that Sunday was the only day they did take it. The NI would include that the early church took the LS when they came together - whenever that was (...they met together daily....).

As far as transportation goes, the NI is that what matters is the going, not the mode. Therefore the ULS is mute (pun intended) because we aren't looking for a definition of mode.

See? Clear as mud, huh? Using CENI and the ULS as a tag team of sorts, we can justify ourselves doing just about anything, and condemn others to Hell for what we don't think they ought to be doing.

Our autonomy is a good thing, but only if we allow others their autonomy at the same time. If we would simply use our local understandings of CENI and ULS, and left others alone, they may well be useful tools in local contexts.

It might help if we could figure out what God is really after rather than arguing over details of living.

But that's not a popular approach.
« Last Edit: Fri Dec 05, 2008 - 18:13:16 by HRoberson »

Offline JERRY C

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Re: Deacons and CENI
« Reply #24 on: Thu Jan 15, 2009 - 10:30:36 »
is all this C E NI and U L S a bunch of Bible Stuff?

 ::pondering::

it seems to me that we must start from the premise (hinted above) "is it loving"?
(a second, similar starting place for forming paradigms would seem to be "is it helpful?")  
[surely CENI's and ULS's could be generated for these two premises?! ha!]

but, then the lawyers would debate what is loving!

(watched "Serenades" last night and one of the characters consoled his congregant
that killing his straying daughter was the loving thing to do since it was better than what God would do next!  agh!)
« Last Edit: Fri May 22, 2009 - 16:55:12 by JERRY C »

Offline zoonance

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Re: Deacons and CENI
« Reply #25 on: Fri Dec 04, 2009 - 09:09:30 »
So when we have a pot luck would it be the deacons job to fill the plates for  the widows and take it to their table?
You may or may not be kidding, but in truth, I think that would certainly be a Christ-like think from them to do. 

We're not interested in Christ-like behavior here. We want to know what the rules are.


An accurate summation of what so often defines the effort.

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Re: Deacons and CENI
« Reply #26 on: Fri Dec 04, 2009 - 21:41:56 »
Good thoughts: the Disciples / Christian churches claims ownership of the Law of Silence.

"God hath not said 'thou shalt not use instruments' therefore WE can exercise our liberty and add instruments."

The decisions of COUNCILS is also claimed to be one of the ways the spirit speaks to them.  The changelings  claim that the Church of Christ is a SECT because it is "historyless." That means thatl the ANTI-instrumentalists refuse to accept the decision of church councils. Lucky for us we don't have any councils other than the Disciples giving historical authority for that which is historically divisive.

That is why it is documented based on the Disciples/Christian Chuch Anglican (Catholic) High Church principle that once a body has taken the liberty to ADD instruments "that becomes the will of Christ." And those who oppose that in their own congregation are guilty of sowing discord. J.W.McGarvey had that dogma used against him.

For those who believe that the Word is SILENT from Genesis to Revelation we understand what Jesus meant when He said that "the doctors of the Law take away the key to knowledge." He even named the clergy body of Scribes and Pharisees and called them hypocrites who HAD taken away knowledge.  In Isaiah He identifies all of the mouth religion when He said in Isaiah 55 that we should NOT spend our money on what is NOT bread because He supplied THE FREE WATER OF THE WORD. 

In Isaiah 58 He outlawed "seeking our own pleasure" or even "speaking our own words." That seems kindi CENIish to me. 

In Ezekiel 33 speaking of the professional "doctors of the law" named named: he named speakers, singers and instrument players.  Now, it is a fact that Jesus never laid down a LAW for the LEGALISTS which saith "Thou shalt NOT be a hypocrite." :-)

John 5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not:
        for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him:
       the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him,
       If a man love me, he will keep my words:
       and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him,
       and make our abode with him.


Christ as the SPIRIT in the prophets absolutely associated all of the MUSICIANS with the known fact that it "was to make the lambs dumb before the slaughter." It worked in Amos and in Isaiah.  But then no MUSICATOR has the nerver or probably the ability to quote the PROPHETS who identified the Civil-Military-Clergy group as parasites and robbers just as God promised when they demanded SET A SENIOR PASTOR OVER US.

He CAST OUT the musical ministrals with a term meaning and used of "like dung."
He consigned to the marketplace (church) the MEN of that race who had become CHILDREN (smile) who Piped hoping to get others to sing and dance the old Mount Sinai Dionysus shuffle.

But the The O Lites would say "Whall-uh, He didn't say that you CANNOT pipe and make people sing and dance in the SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE."

But, the clergy knew nothing about the first advent until Jesus had been there and gone.

I really think of "Lying wonders" (the theatrics) when grown men CLAIM that Christ has been SILENT.  Why boast about being strong deluders. 


Offline Bon Voyage

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Re: Deacons and CENI
« Reply #27 on: Fri Dec 04, 2009 - 21:46:58 »
CENI is what one must go by, unless you have stuff you want to do that isn't covered by CENI.  Then you can invent a concept called "generic authority" for what you want to do.  Them "denominationalists?"  They need specific authority for EVERYTHING.

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Re: Deacons and CENI
« Reply #28 on: Fri Dec 04, 2009 - 22:10:36 »
1 Timothy 3:8-10 - Likewise deacons must be reverent, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy for money, holding the mystery of the faith with a pure conscience. But let these also first be proved; then let them serve as deacons; being found blameless.

1 Timothy 3:13 - For those who served well as deacons obtain for themselves a good standing and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

What I'm trying to find out is if 1)using only the Bible, 2)making no assumptions and 3)using CENI is it possible to come to a knowledge of what "service" the deacons provided?

If that service is not specified what then? Or if it is specified is it alright to "go beyond what is written" and to included other types of service?

Ken

[color;]Ken,

I'm sure this is a waste of your time but I was reading your posts and came across this one.  I'm sure someone said, or you already know, 1 Timothy deals a lot with deacons.  FWIW

blituri

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Re: Deacons and CENI
« Reply #29 on: Fri Dec 04, 2009 - 22:31:18 »
Yes, but it got off on the mockery of the notion that God has the SAME rights the critics assume for themselves.

 



blituri

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Re: Deacons and CENI
« Reply #30 on: Fri Dec 04, 2009 - 22:47:10 »
Both Jesus and Paul are defined as deacons or ministers.  Paul especially give us the marks as a teacher or eveangelits who is ON THE RUN working for people or teaching the Word.   Deacons are probably less attached and better able to carry messages or to serve others.  If the men after Pentecost were initially feeders of the pilgrim widows philip is called an evangelists. Being full of the Holy Spirit is parallel to holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.

1Tim. 3:8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
1Tim. 3:9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
1Tim. 3:10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.

Both bold words are:

G1247 diakoneō dee-ak-on-eh'-o From G1249 ; to be an attendant, that is, wait upon (menially or as a host, friend or [figuratively] teacher); technically to act as a Christian deacon:—(ad-) minister (unto), serve, use the office of a deacon.

G1249 diakonos dee-ak'-on-os Probably from διάκω diakō (obsolete, to run on errands; compare G1377 ); an attendant, that is, (generally) a waiter (at table or in other menial duties); specifically a Christian teacher and pastor (technically a deacon or deaconess):—deacon, minister, servant.

There is no Greek term for "deaconess" although much of the service was performed by women and there were not performance roles for men or women on the dole.

The church is a Teaching of the Word group identical to the synagogue or church in the wilderness:

Acts 15:21 For Moses
            of old time hath
            in every city them that preach him,
            being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.


Jesus didn't die to send out people to make CEREMONIAL LEGALISTS doing worship: He sent them to make Disciples and the RESOURCE was what HE had taught through the PROPHETS and APOSTLES.

Acts 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things,
        which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
Acts 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers,
        A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me;
        him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
Acts 3:23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul,
        which will not hear that prophet,
        shall be destroyed from among the people.

Being a "minister of buildings and grounds" was never intended because a despised and rejected people are often on the run and therefore I don't think you can begin the CENI on a modern institute taking from the destitute.  Everything beyond being a "school of the Word" where the resources have been suppled falls under being a community club or a "society." While getting in out of the rain needs no CENI, most things which are ADDED have the effect of diminishing the SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE role.

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Re: Deacons and CENI
« Reply #31 on: Mon Dec 07, 2009 - 07:29:28 »
CENI is what one must go by, unless you have stuff you want to do that isn't covered by CENI.  Then you can invent a concept called "generic authority" for what you want to do.  Them "denominationalists?"  They need specific authority for EVERYTHING.
Quite expedient.

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Re: Deacons and CENI
« Reply #32 on: Mon Dec 07, 2009 - 07:34:30 »
Yes, but it got off on the mockery of the notion that God has the SAME rights the critics assume for themselves.

 



Wrong.  What was being criticized was the human desire to speak where God has not by binding laws out of thin air (aka the Law of Silence).  That's not a mockery of "God's right", but a criticism of an approach to scripture that puts man's reasoning of silence above God's spoken word.

blituri

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Re: Deacons and CENI
« Reply #33 on: Mon Dec 07, 2009 - 13:05:51 »
We know "what means" the Church of Christ in the wilderness both INCLUSIVELY and EXCLUSIVELY.
As the synagogue that never changed: we don't have a single example of anyone thinking that a set-time-place to REST (from imposed rituals) to READ the Word and to REHEARSE it as that which a DISCIPLE does of any one imposing turning God's UNMETRICAL word into a song or adding instruments for the duration of the Old Testament, in the New Testament or up to the year 1815 in a liberal German synagogue--which the judge did not let him steal from the owners.

As a matter of fact, we readers of the Bible and all recorded credible scholarship know that "vocal or instrumental rejoicing" was OUTLAWED.  The church of Christ defined in the wilderness and never changed is further defined by James and the Apostles as the ACCEPTED PATTERNISM at that time which accounts for Gentiles in most small gatherings being PREPARED to become Christians.

Acts 15:21 For Moses
      of old time
      hath in every city
      them that preach him,
      being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Jesus exampled and COMMANDED by the Greek word "ekklesia" READING and discussing material NOT COMPOSED by any member of the ekklesia. The synagogue and ekklesia are both Greek words INCLUSIVE of reading SUPPLIED information and EXCLUDING any kind of rhetorical, musical or theatrical performers: The meaning of the PSALLO word is that anyone who DALLIED around the performing boys and girls in the marketplace would be FORCED to go to the ekklesia (church) bearing the POLLUTED RED MARK of perversion: they would be fined and NOT permitted to take part in the DISCUSSION of supplied resources.

Paul used SYNAGOGUE words to define the ekklesia: He EXCLUDED all of the histrionic-hypocritic arts in both Romans 14 and Rom 15 and defined the PATTERNISM for the church for all times.

Rom. 15:1 We then that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak,
                 Not to drive the "grey hairs" out of the church and personal family as boasted
                 and not to please ourselves.
                 Ariskos defines the performing arts including playing the prostitute.
                 It also excludes the groups right to impose their own opinions as doubtful disputations

Rom. 15:2 Let every one of us please his neighbour for his good to edification.  [Education only]
Rom. 15:3 For even Christ pleased not himself; but, as it is written,
        The reproaches of them that reproached thee fell on me. 
               Jesus musically mocked in his nakedness by DOGS

THE DIRECTLY COMMANDED RESOURCE. TRUE believers are DISCIPLES OF CHRIST. Sectarians worship silly songs and sermonizers

Rom. 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime
        were written for our learning,
        that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

THE DIRECTLY COMMANDED METHOD OF TEACHING by the GOD of comfort and patience.

Rom. 15:5 Now the God of patience and consolation
        grant you to be likeminded one toward
        another according to Christ Jesus: [Jesus cast out the musical ministrels like dung]
Rom. 15:6 That ye may with one MIND and one MOUTH glorify God, [the only way to praise]
         even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Rom. 15:7 Wherefore receive ye one another,
        as Christ also received us to the glory of God.

Or, you may in one noted effort APPLAUD as 1/3 of the congregation walks out immediately or very soon.

Those who lie about all of the "instrument passages" INTEND to do SELF-PLEASURE and "corrupt the Word" meaning "selling learning at retail" which is also used of the adulterers.

They do NOT intend to use "that which is written" by the God of COMFORT
They do NOT intend that you obey Jesus who said "Rest, come learn of ME" that you BE comforted
The DO intend to REJECT the owners of the property by DIVIDING THE MINDS to infiltrate and divert.
They do NOT praise Christ by teaching the Prophets and Apostles "as taught."
They do NOT intend to RECEIVE, people but REJECT the owner to SUCK IN their SECT.

CENI is always clearly stated down through the ages for those AWARE of the meaning of A SCHOOL OF CHRIST (only).  For the SPIRITUAL people that:

YOU do not have the liberty to IMPOSE anything divisive on me
Which is NOT directly Commanded, Exampled or Inferenced as REQJUIRED to carry on the BIBLE CLASS (only)

Only the INSTRUMENTALISTS confessed to using the Law of Silence, TRADITIONALISM and church councils to IMPOSE and deliberately become SECTARIAN because "God hath NOT said 'thou shalt not make instrumental noise while I teach MY words'."

While you do not know of an INSTITUTE which uses "that which is written" defined as "scripture" it is a terminal LIE to say that the universally NOT-Instrumentalists IMPOSED (a positive insertion) "congregational singing."  Only those who IMPOSE something not required and contrary to the group is defined as a HERETIC or SECTARIAN.

When people--at the highest rank of heresy--say that God has been SILENT about the instrument as a MARK then you know that that person is terminally ignorant or terminally evil.  Only the ANTI-church of Christ people have DELIBERATELY and MALICIOUSLY turned THEIR PATTERNIST LAW OF SILENCE against those who KNEW that Christ from the beginning used INSTRUMENTS as "brought by Lucifer the singing and harp-playing prostitute into the garden of Eden where SERPENT is a musical enchanter(ess), sorcerers, warriors threatening a sexual reprisal, sacrificial EXORCISTS, prostitutes or sodomites" in a religious sense.

The COMMANDED resource for the church are PROPHETS (as few psalms) and APOSTLES inspired by Christ and "vocal or instrumental rejoicing" is EXCLUDED.  Peter says THAT is the way to MARK false teachers.

If you believe the THOUGHT LEADERS you will discover that they NEVER appeal to the Prophets who universally condemn the curse of the sacrificial system, they YOU have been taken captive.  Reading their material I can only say that they never had a brush with the REAL Bible.

We do not even have to WONDER why the masses follow a multitude to do evil and virtually worship those PURPOSE DRIVEN to deliberately sow discord.  Please suffer for us: statistically NONE of the literate Churches of Christ were taken captive by the historically-massive SOWING OF DISCORD.  :-)

You CANNOT even hallucinate IMPOSING what the Bible EXCLUDES as alarming sounds without being a PURPOSE DRIVEN ENEMY of the Word just like the Israelites who rose up in the same MUSICAL IDOLATRY at Mount Sinai. Paul said that they lost the ability to read BLACK text on BROWN paper and I affirm that these people do NOT have the ability to read and professed to be teachers of the law without KNOWING it. This is reserved for the ELECT as the sight and sounds to flee Babylon.

STOP TWISTING: only the INSTRUMENTALISTS use the "law of silence" to become musically sectarian and VIOLATE many direct commands to which your thought leaders are blind.  Jesus called the Scribes and Pharisees (your thought leaders) hypocrites (all performing arts called sorcery) by NAMING entertaining speakers, singers and instrument players. But THEN no one will get on the lecture circuit (Pharisees) or Book published (Scribes) who has EVER READ THE PROPHETS WHERE CHRIST TELLS HIS SIDE OF THE STORY.

You are CAPTIVE in a BIRD CAGE (fruit basket in Amos) and you are PATTERNED and need to blame thoes FLYING FREE.  That was the warning in the Book of Enoch and lots of literature parallel to the Bible for those with eyes and ears.  Cultified people ALWAYS enable and defend their CULT LEADERS.

Offline s1n4m1n

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Re: Deacons and CENI
« Reply #34 on: Mon Dec 07, 2009 - 16:53:13 »
1 Timothy 3:8-10 - Likewise deacons must be reverent, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy for money, holding the mystery of the faith with a pure conscience. But let these also first be proved; then let them serve as deacons; being found blameless.

1 Timothy 3:13 - For those who served well as deacons obtain for themselves a good standing and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

What I'm trying to find out is if 1)using only the Bible, 2)making no assumptions and 3)using CENI is it possible to come to a knowledge of what "service" the deacons provided?

If that service is not specified what then? Or if it is specified is it alright to "go beyond what is written" and to included other types of service?

Ken

[color;]Ken,

I'm sure this is a waste of your time but I was reading your posts and came across this one.  I'm sure someone said, or you already know, 1 Timothy deals a lot with deacons.  FWIW

The epistle certainly deals with the appointment of deacons, as to their actual service, I don't see it.

What I'm trying to find out is if 1)using only the Bible, 2)making no assumptions and 3)using CENI is it possible to come to a knowledge of what "service" the deacons provided?

Thanks,

Ken