Author Topic: Denominations Will Never Unite - G.C. Brewer  (Read 19825 times)

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Offline mistergus

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Denominations Will Never Unite - G.C. Brewer
« on: Tue Jul 29, 2008 - 18:24:38 »
From the pen of the late great champion of the faith, G.C. Brewer...



But will the denominations ever be united?  Will they ever be one?  I answer unhesitatingly, No.  The denominations will never be one.  He who hopes for that has a vain hope.  He who works for it and prays for it works and prays uselessly.  I don't hope for it, work for it, or pray for it.  Now I hope and pray that the time will come when there will be no denominations, but I do not hope to see all the denominations federate or merge into one gigantic organization, one great denomination.  No, indeed, I don't want to see that and never expect anybody else to see that.

                                                        - G.C. Brewer (1949)

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Denominations Will Never Unite - G.C. Brewer
« on: Tue Jul 29, 2008 - 18:24:38 »

Offline Bon Voyage

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Re: Denominations Will Never Unite - G.C. Brewer
« Reply #1 on: Tue Jul 29, 2008 - 18:26:06 »
Will the sects of the CofC ever be united?

Offline James Rondon

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Re: Denominations Will Never Unite - G.C. Brewer
« Reply #2 on: Tue Jul 29, 2008 - 18:30:50 »
But will the denominations ever be united?  Will they ever be one?  I answer unhesitatingly, No.  The denominations will never be one.  He who hopes for that has a vain hope.  He who works for it and prays for it works and prays uselessly.  I don't hope for it, work for it, or pray for it.  Now I hope and pray that the time will come when there will be no denominations, but I do not hope to see all the denominations federate or merge into one gigantic organization, one great denomination.  No, indeed, I don't want to see that and never expect anybody else to see that.

                                                        - G.C. Brewer (1949)

What does all of that say about the Church of Christ denomination?

Offline Bonnie

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Re: Denominations Will Never Unite - G.C. Brewer
« Reply #3 on: Tue Jul 29, 2008 - 18:31:12 »
No, I don't believe denominations will ever unite and see eye to eye on the scriptures.

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Re: Denominations Will Never Unite - G.C. Brewer
« Reply #4 on: Tue Jul 29, 2008 - 19:12:24 »
If one believer has no understanding of doctrinal or Biblical teaching but has an immense faith in Christ as Lord, and another believer has all kinds of book knowledge and doctrinal exactness but lacks love in their heart, who do you suppose is the most united with Christ?

The point I'm making is that there are believers in all denominations, and while they don't necessarily match up with CofC doctrine or biblical understanding I do not for a second judge their faith. I can also say that in my 30+ years in the CofC I have met far too many who have all kinds of knowledge of the "brotherhood" doctrines but wouldn't spend one second taking care of the needs of a homeless man, or a single mother of children, or an inner city youth being terrorized by gang violence and drugs, etc. They are not all like that, of course, but there are too many to be considered in harmony with Jesus.

So, who is more united with Christ? The simple believer who has love, joy, and peace in their heart because of Christ, or the one who can quote Bible front to back, but can't love their neighbor?

I know that the intentions of the CofC is to have unity based on Jesus' prayer in John 17, and to have doctrinal soundness and exact Biblical understanding, but I would prefer to be like the apostle Paul in his letter to the Philippians...

"Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith--- that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings becoming like him in his death, that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead."  (Phil. 3:8-11; ESV)

Paul didn't care about his own perfection through following the law, he just wanted to know Christ....the perfection that only Christ possessed. It is there that the beginnings of UNITY are found.

My two cents...


Blessings to ALL who have faith in Christ as Savior!!


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Re: Denominations Will Never Unite - G.C. Brewer
« Reply #4 on: Tue Jul 29, 2008 - 19:12:24 »



Offline davidandme

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Re: Denominations Will Never Unite - G.C. Brewer
« Reply #5 on: Tue Jul 29, 2008 - 19:34:39 »
From the pen of the late great champion of the faith, G.C. Brewer...



But will the denominations ever be united?  Will they ever be one?  I answer unhesitatingly, No.  The denominations will never be one.  He who hopes for that has a vain hope.  He who works for it and prays for it works and prays uselessly.  I don't hope for it, work for it, or pray for it.  Now I hope and pray that the time will come when there will be no denominations, but I do not hope to see all the denominations federate or merge into one gigantic organization, one great denomination.  No, indeed, I don't want to see that and never expect anybody else to see that.

                                                        - G.C. Brewer (1949)

Denominations will never unite completely.  There are just to many differences.  However they will unite in common beliefs.  There is a reason for this ecumenism.   Disasters in the world would bring people to God.  They will argue that because of human sins the world ecology is getting worst and worst.  So denominations will unite to attract more people in to the churches and to enforce religious laws.   This is part of prophesy.  God bless.

Offline segell

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Re: Denominations Will Never Unite - G.C. Brewer
« Reply #6 on: Tue Jul 29, 2008 - 21:17:00 »
Who cares about the unity of denominations.  What we want to be very, very careful about is denying a fellow child of God.

Offline memmy

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Re: Denominations Will Never Unite - G.C. Brewer
« Reply #7 on: Tue Jul 29, 2008 - 21:54:22 »
I believe we will all be one eventually. I mean since Jesus prayed for it, I believe it.

Offline Circuitridingpreacher

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Re: Denominations Will Never Unite - G.C. Brewer
« Reply #8 on: Tue Jul 29, 2008 - 23:02:39 »
Of course all the denominations will unite, that is what Rev 17 is all about. In fact, it will go further than denominations uniting, it will be religions uniting into one for the worship of the beast.

Here is how far it has progressed so far.
http://www.oikoumene.org/en/member-churches/global-bodies-and-mission-communions/wcc.html

There are already a bunch of CoC's already joined up.
http://www.oikoumene.org/en/member-churches/church-families/disciples-of-christ-churches-of-christ.html


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Offline mistergus

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Re: Denominations Will Never Unite - G.C. Brewer
« Reply #9 on: Wed Jul 30, 2008 - 06:23:39 »
Who cares about the unity of denominations.  What we want to be very, very careful about is denying a fellow child of God.

We also want to be very, very careful about treating one who has not been scripturally immersed as a fellow child of God.  No matter how pious they appear.

To do so is to disregard scripture.

Robert G

Offline stevehut

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Re: Denominations Will Never Unite - G.C. Brewer
« Reply #10 on: Wed Jul 30, 2008 - 08:18:06 »
we want to be very, very careful about is denying a fellow child of God.

 ???  ?

I don't understand.
« Last Edit: Wed Jul 30, 2008 - 10:09:10 by stevehut »

Offline stevehut

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Re: Denominations Will Never Unite - G.C. Brewer
« Reply #11 on: Wed Jul 30, 2008 - 08:31:40 »
There's an Anglican church down the street from here.  (They're a part of a growing number of churches that have quit the Episcopal fellowship because they believe that denomination has gone apostate.) 

Their small but growing denomination is prepared, right here and now, to reunite with the Roman Catholic Church.  Which might be a perfectly wonderful thing, except that they want to retain their own identity, their own orders, ordain their own priests, and keep the same separate parishes, even if there's another one next door.   ::doh::  They want the prestige that comes with the affiliation, but not the submission or accountability that comes with it.  Sounds crazy to me.

Ah, and there's the rub: When you join forces, someone has to be in charge.  And no one wants to humble themselves into submission.

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Re: Denominations Will Never Unite - G.C. Brewer
« Reply #12 on: Wed Jul 30, 2008 - 08:45:29 »
What's surprising is that there were people in our (restoration movement) history who thought this would happen because of the pure logic of scripture and the Lockean capacity of man to understand the Bible without interpreting it.  This idea, of course, proved absurd, as disagreements arose even in our movement from the beginning. 

Offline jb728b

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Re: Denominations Will Never Unite - G.C. Brewer
« Reply #13 on: Wed Jul 30, 2008 - 09:56:48 »
Don't confuse "union" with "unity".  Two different things.

Offline Bigdog

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Re: Denominations Will Never Unite - G.C. Brewer
« Reply #14 on: Wed Jul 30, 2008 - 14:44:20 »
If one believer has no understanding of doctrinal or Biblical teaching but has an immense faith in Christ as Lord, and another believer has all kinds of book knowledge and doctrinal exactness but lacks love in their heart, who do you suppose is the most united with Christ?

The point I'm making is that there are believers in all denominations, and while they don't necessarily match up with CofC doctrine or biblical understanding I do not for a second judge their faith. I can also say that in my 30+ years in the CofC I have met far too many who have all kinds of knowledge of the "brotherhood" doctrines but wouldn't spend one second taking care of the needs of a homeless man, or a single mother of children, or an inner city youth being terrorized by gang violence and drugs, etc. They are not all like that, of course, but there are too many to be considered in harmony with Jesus.

So, who is more united with Christ? The simple believer who has love, joy, and peace in their heart because of Christ, or the one who can quote Bible front to back, but can't love their neighbor?

I know that the intentions of the CofC is to have unity based on Jesus' prayer in John 17, and to have doctrinal soundness and exact Biblical understanding, but I would prefer to be like the apostle Paul in his letter to the Philippians...

"Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith--- that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings becoming like him in his death, that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead."  (Phil. 3:8-11; ESV)

Paul didn't care about his own perfection through following the law, he just wanted to know Christ....the perfection that only Christ possessed. It is there that the beginnings of UNITY are found.

My two cents...


Blessings to ALL who have faith in Christ as Savior!!


This is not only very true, but sad at the same time, we need more people who will look into there hearts. It's always about one own heart condition.

Offline segell

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Re: Denominations Will Never Unite - G.C. Brewer
« Reply #15 on: Wed Jul 30, 2008 - 15:32:40 »
we want to be very, very careful about is denying a fellow child of God.

 ???  ?

I don't understand.

I didn't word that very well, did I?  What I meant is that in denominational disunity one never wants to deny one who is in Christ.  Something I fear is done all too often.  Kind of throwing the Christian out with the denominational bathwater so to speak.

marc

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Re: Denominations Will Never Unite - G.C. Brewer
« Reply #16 on: Wed Jul 30, 2008 - 20:17:25 »
What's the Biblical basis for unity, anyway?  This probably needs its own thread (and has had its own thread in the past), but I just noticed that a young area preacher's starting a series on why we can't have unity based on "false humility", in other words, we can be doctrinally correct and this should be our basis for unity.

Where's the bcv? 

Offline stevehut

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Re: Denominations Will Never Unite - G.C. Brewer
« Reply #17 on: Wed Jul 30, 2008 - 20:35:12 »
What I meant is that in denominational disunity one never wants to deny one who is in Christ.  Something I fear is done all too often. 

I can't speak for anyone else, but I belong to a church that does not believe in instant conversion, infant baptism, clerical celibacy, tongues-speaking, KJV-only, female pastors, or gay marriage.    ::eek::  Within just a few minutes drive of my home, there are (literally) at least 100 churches that believe in some or all of these.

Is it right that I should count the members of these churches as my "brothers," when we have so little in common?  ::shrug::

marc

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Re: Denominations Will Never Unite - G.C. Brewer
« Reply #18 on: Wed Jul 30, 2008 - 20:38:35 »
I don't know; do you have the same father?

Offline stevehut

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Re: Denominations Will Never Unite - G.C. Brewer
« Reply #19 on: Wed Jul 30, 2008 - 20:56:20 »
I don't know; do you have the same father?

I suppose that was for me, marc.

To answer your question, I really don't know.  Many of these people subscribe to a view of God that is hugely and dramatically different from my own.

If I wanted to be Catholic, I would go down to 60th Street. 
If I wanted to be Methodist, I would go to Avenue M.
The Southern Baptists meet on Ave. K.

And all of them preach a very different gospel, which is why I choose to worship elsewhere.

Mind you, I take no pleasure in such thoughts.  But it does concern me.

marc

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Re: Denominations Will Never Unite - G.C. Brewer
« Reply #20 on: Wed Jul 30, 2008 - 21:03:21 »
Yes it was to you.  You ask if you are to call them brothers.  If you have the same father, yes.  Brother doesn't mean identical twin.

You say they preach a different gospel? Well, then, if they don't preach salvation through the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, then that's a different matter.

As I asked earlier, what are the Biblical conditions for unity? 
« Last Edit: Wed Jul 30, 2008 - 21:35:02 by marc »

Offline Jaime

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Re: Denominations Will Never Unite - G.C. Brewer
« Reply #21 on: Wed Jul 30, 2008 - 21:16:46 »
Luk 9:49  John answered, "Master, we saw someone casting out demons in your name, and we tried to stop him, because he does not follow with us."
Luk 9:50  But Jesus said to him, "Do not stop him, for the one who is not against you is for you."

Offline segell

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Re: Denominations Will Never Unite - G.C. Brewer
« Reply #22 on: Thu Jul 31, 2008 - 15:07:06 »
What I meant is that in denominational disunity one never wants to deny one who is in Christ.  Something I fear is done all too often. 

I can't speak for anyone else, but I belong to a church that does not believe in instant conversion, infant baptism, clerical celibacy, tongues-speaking, KJV-only, female pastors, or gay marriage.    ::eek::  Within just a few minutes drive of my home, there are (literally) at least 100 churches that believe in some or all of these.

Is it right that I should count the members of these churches as my "brothers," when we have so little in common?  ::shrug::

No, not at all.  Just as I wouldn't count all those who attend your church as a fellow believer, necessarily.  But I do believe God has His remnant in place and there could be followers of Christ in different kinds of churches and denominations.  I would hate to think I shunned and refused someone who is indeed in Christ mistakenly because they didn't pass a so-called litmus test, if you catch my drift.  Not all who attend my church are saved - some are seekers, some are trying to feel good at least one day a week and, I suppose, there are some who might think they are a Christian by going to church - but do not have a relationship with God through His Son.  Does that make sense?

I'm not suggesting embracing practices and rites and such things that do not line up with your understanding of God's Word.  But I would be careful not to lump folks into some kind of category of "not saved" too hastily.  We don't have a choice about fellowshipping true believers.  We are to embrace one another - regardless of where we might serve God.

Offline Bon Voyage

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Re: Denominations Will Never Unite - G.C. Brewer
« Reply #23 on: Thu Jul 31, 2008 - 15:32:47 »
I don't know; do you have the same father?

I suppose that was for me, marc.

To answer your question, I really don't know.  Many of these people subscribe to a view of God that is hugely and dramatically different from my own.

If I wanted to be Catholic, I would go down to 60th Street. 
If I wanted to be Methodist, I would go to Avenue M.
The Southern Baptists meet on Ave. K.

And all of them preach a very different gospel, which is why I choose to worship elsewhere.

Mind you, I take no pleasure in such thoughts.  But it does concern me.

If you wanted to worship God with other Christians, you would go to a Bible Church.

Offline stevehut

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Re: Denominations Will Never Unite - G.C. Brewer
« Reply #24 on: Thu Jul 31, 2008 - 23:35:28 »
As I asked earlier, what are the Biblical conditions for unity? 

I'm sure there are many, but what comes to mind at the moment are the things that constitute a true Christian: Sound doctrine, repentance, and common purpose. 

marc

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Re: Denominations Will Never Unite - G.C. Brewer
« Reply #25 on: Thu Jul 31, 2008 - 23:42:46 »
I'm looking for bcv telling what things are necessary for unity.  I don't think there are many.


Offline manichunter

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Re: Denominations Will Never Unite - G.C. Brewer
« Reply #26 on: Fri Aug 01, 2008 - 00:38:10 »
We never come to the unity of faith until we deal with one thing first.  God's sovergnty.  Secondly, how is God sovergn.  A denomination by its mere creation assumes some of God's sovergnty by creating and producing their own creeds and interpretations.  This is not new, for even the Jews did this to their detriment.  Man has always tried to infringe upon the sovergnty of God.  Denominations believe that God shares His sovergnty.  God does not share His sovergnty with anything.  Thirdly, He already gave mankind His means of sovergnty.  However, mankind has twisted this too and invaded God's sovergnty.   We argue over what is lawful, unlawful, profane, holy, clean, unclean, right, and wrong.  However, His word is precise in regards to these matter as they spell out the sovergnty of God.  We just manipulated and interpreted as we see fit in our denominations. 

Offline Bigdog

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Re: Denominations Will Never Unite - G.C. Brewer
« Reply #27 on: Fri Aug 01, 2008 - 09:52:36 »
From the pen of the late great champion of the faith, G.C. Brewer...



But will the denominations ever be united?  Will they ever be one?  I answer unhesitatingly, No.  The denominations will never be one.  He who hopes for that has a vain hope.  He who works for it and prays for it works and prays uselessly.  I don't hope for it, work for it, or pray for it.  Now I hope and pray that the time will come when there will be no denominations, but I do not hope to see all the denominations federate or merge into one gigantic organization, one great denomination.  No, indeed, I don't want to see that and never expect anybody else to see that.

                                                        - G.C. Brewer (1949)
It's a shame that some people rather argue over differences, instead of talking about what we have in common, that Jesus shedding of His blood to pay for all peoples sins, past, present, and in the future and that we need to understand that through Jesus is the only way to Heaven, but then some would argue about that.

Offline Jon-Marc

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Re: Denominations Will Never Unite - G.C. Brewer
« Reply #28 on: Fri Aug 01, 2008 - 10:38:23 »
How can different denominations unite when those within the same denomination can't unite? I'm Baptist, and there are Baptist churches that won't fellowship with other Baptist churches because of differences.

Offline segell

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Re: Denominations Will Never Unite - G.C. Brewer
« Reply #29 on: Fri Aug 01, 2008 - 10:54:12 »
I don't think denominations are called to unite.  But followers of Jesus Christ are. 

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Re: Denominations Will Never Unite - G.C. Brewer
« Reply #30 on: Fri Aug 01, 2008 - 13:30:33 »
I don't think denominations are called to unite.  But followers of Jesus Christ are. 

That's the genius of the Stone-Campbell plea. All of the professing Christians among all the denominations were to unite upon the clear, self-evident, basic, essential, core tenets of apostolic Christianity. They were free to hold private opinions on the peripheral matters so long as they did not try to force their views on anyone else.

Like G. C., Brewer, the founders of the Stone-Campbell Reformation were grace-centered and Christocentric. They understood the huge difference between the gospel and doctrine, unity and uniformity.

Pax.

Offline Bon Voyage

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Re: Denominations Will Never Unite - G.C. Brewer
« Reply #31 on: Fri Aug 01, 2008 - 13:37:58 »
I don't think denominations are called to unite.  But followers of Jesus Christ are. 

That's the genius of the Stone-Campbell plea. All of the professing Christians among all the denominations were to unite upon the clear, self-evident, basic, essential, core tenets of apostolic Christianity. They were free to hold private opinions on the peripheral matters so long as they did not try to force their views on anyone else.

Like G. C., Brewer, the founders of the Stone-Campbell Reformation were grace-centered and Christocentric. They understood the huge difference between the gospel and doctrine, unity and uniformity.

Pax.

Divide to unite is genius?  Their "genius" of divide to unite, is a seed that has grown and grown and grown.

Offline Lee Freeman

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Re: Denominations Will Never Unite - G.C. Brewer
« Reply #32 on: Fri Aug 01, 2008 - 13:55:46 »
I don't think denominations are called to unite.  But followers of Jesus Christ are. 

That's the genius of the Stone-Campbell plea. All of the professing Christians among all the denominations were to unite upon the clear, self-evident, basic, essential, core tenets of apostolic Christianity. They were free to hold private opinions on the peripheral matters so long as they did not try to force their views on anyone else.

Like G. C., Brewer, the founders of the Stone-Campbell Reformation were grace-centered and Christocentric. They understood the huge difference between the gospel and doctrine, unity and uniformity.

Pax.

Divide to unite is genius?  Their "genius" of divide to unite, is a seed that has grown and grown and grown.

No, the already divided members of the various Protestant sects were supposed to unite upon the essential doctrines of Christianity. How is divided Christian uniting creating division? Campbell considered any man or sect that put sectarian or denominational concerns ahead of the gospel of Jesus Christ a sectarian. He knew that whole denominations couldn't or wouldn't unite, but individuals could put away anything sectarian and unite. That didn't mean one had to discard one's personal views-one could still hold Methodist, Episcopalian, Armenian, Baptist, etc. views, but one didn't try to force those views on anyone else. Leaving a sectarian group that was primarily interested in its own agenda he didn't consider division, or at least not harmful division. Maybe that's what you mean by division?

Pax.

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Re: Denominations Will Never Unite - G.C. Brewer
« Reply #33 on: Fri Aug 01, 2008 - 15:23:18 »
 The true Church is not of any denomination.
 The Church is the one without spot or wrinkle and it's made clean and pure, from the Blood Jesus spilled at Calvary, His death and Resurrection. Jesus is the head of that Church we are all parts of the body. We are the bride waiting for the Bridegrooms return. All of us need to be satisfied with the part of the body we are.
 For those who argue and fight it is like witchcraft and like a cancer to the body and must be cut off.
 To get a good understanding of what is good and what God rejects. Read Galatians 5: 16-23 and Colossians 3:1-17

Offline stevehut

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Re: Denominations Will Never Unite - G.C. Brewer
« Reply #34 on: Sun Aug 03, 2008 - 15:06:05 »
Sorry guys, I've been away at my son's Cub Scout camp for a few days.  Finally found a hotel with wi-fi so I can catch up.

Marc, I don't mean to evade your questions here.  But the question at hand is about the uniting of denominations, and I tend to think on a different plane.  That is, in my own lifetime, I have witnessed (and/or read about) many mergers of denom's, and in every case they had to negotiate to find a compromise doctrine that pleased all.  So it seems to me that in the pursuit of unity, some amount of truth got lost in the shuffle.

That's why I admire the intent (despite the imperfect implementation) of the Restoration movement.  Any real unity -- that is, unity built on truth instead of a pursuit of big numbers -- is built one person at a time, not one group at a time.  Hence, I think Freeman is making a lot of sense here.

 

     
anything