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Christian Interests => Organized Religion and Religious Movements Discussions => Restoration Movement Forum => Topic started by: winky on Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 10:13:19

Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: winky on Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 10:13:19
Other. Along the lines of what Bob said: \"There is no command regarding the specifics of music for those under the covenant of grace, other than it is to be from the heart.\"

As far as appropriateness - in some churches of Christ it may be an appropriate and uplifting way to worship. For many, however, it would cause more stumbling blocks than it would blessings.

My dad has said something to the effect that he believes that although IM is not a sin, it is not, in his opinion, the best or most appropriate way to worship, and that that's why it wasn't used in the NT. He says that it is not in keeping with the spiritual nature of worship, which is what the NT church was trying to do - make their worship more spiritual and less physical. Does anyone have thoughts on that? Charlie, feel free to tell me to start a new thread if you think this is too far off topic.  :D

Wendy
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: Arkstfan on Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 10:31:21
Vessel I agree with you though not as strongly.

I love the acapella tradition. I don't care to see a push to go instrumental in the churches of Christ, though I would shout with joy if we could just reach the point of accepting that it is a matter of preference rather than law whether we use them or not.

I'd be happy with telling the Disciples that we were wrong for condeming them for having an organ and sharing a nice brotherly hug.
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: winky on Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 13:12:20
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Do you mind if I join you in naive optimism?[/quote]

Come on over! It's a pretty pleasant place to be, I must say! :)

Wendy
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: kanham on Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 14:47:11
Winky,

If I thought people were advocating both then I wouldn't have said a word.

I am sorry, that is not what I read. The denoms have no problem with acapella so someone must. They don’t mind us having our acapella ways but can the same be said for us? That was not how I read the thread.

I am always open for correction even when I don’t sound like it.

Thanks and God bless.
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: Jim Abb on Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 22:10:18
From this mostly lurker, I think we are really getting to the core issue here....that is...what is worship? The entire basis of the discussion on IM in worship is based on the assumption that there is a \"formal\" worship. In my growth away from the \"old paths\" mentality (really the \"same old rut\" mentality) to a more grace focused mentality many ideas once accepted have been re-examined and found wanting. One of the first was IM. But that gave way to a deeper question regarding worship. My position now is that anything not sinful can be a part of worshiping our Lord. If pure religion involves service, then service is itself a form of worship. The roofer who donates his services to a struggling family is worshipping God as much as a Sunday morning song of praise (perhaps even better!).
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: marc on Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 10:12:24
meeting places--I see multiple examples of upper rooms.

times--Not sure about the start, but I see an approved example of meeting until midnight.

of course we would never say these examples were binding, only that they were expedient.  Yet we bind acapella singing based on a couple of verses that don't even deal with worship services, and which don't even mention acapella singing.

Just curious, could I get a chapter and verse reference to acapella singing in the New Testament?  I'm looking for a specific reference to acapella, not an assumption that this is what the scripture is talking about.
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: marc on Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 11:10:00
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]If in the Old Testament, scripture clarifies that one should sing and have instruments, why aren't the verses in the New Testament equally as clear? [/quote]

Is this the sentence you're asking why I'm not responding to?  This is the best argument against your position, not for it!  The New Testament contains no written books of law!  The OT lays out exactly what was acceptable and unacceptable in worship, showing that God indeed can write law when he needs to.  The New Testament does no such thing.  We are no longer under law but under grace (who said that?)  We have freedom in Christ!  We have a relationship to Him as sons and we now give him our whole lives, not just the works of our hands!  

btw, as to the extra-scriptural early church examples of acapella singing, I would suggest checking out the other recent threads on this topic.  There was a good discussion of this very thing.
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: Trois on Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 11:21:54
Marc, Abs, et al...

Let's make sure this dialogue stays in the spirit of Christ and the spirit of seeking. Inorder to really give good answers we all have to first seek to understand what the other person is talking about.

I have no doubt that worship in the assembly of the NT church was acapella. I have only theories as to why they only sang. I have looked for IM music in NT worship. I haven't found any. Yet I am not willing to condemn those who don't see it as I see it. I see some holes in my own logic because I believe that worship in our Sunday assemblies need to remain as close to the original intent of the NT scripture as we can but I don't have any problem whatsoever with IM outside that context. I just hope that doesn't make me a hypocrite.

I still think this is a hermeneutical issue though. For example dgdodd listed several text from the OT and a couple from Revelation to say that IM is Biblical. Well if your hermeneutic says that the entire Bible (OT/NT) is our rule of faith then of course IM is acceptable. If on the other hand you believe that only the NT is our rule of faith then of course IM is unacceptable. My immediate challenge to that argumentation would be that you still don't find any positive evidence that God wanted IM in the worship assembly of the NT church. OT was OT and Revelation (depending on your interpretive view) was in heaven.

A challenge to the whole Bible hermeneutic could be then what about the fact that Jesus says the OT (incl. the Psalms) has been fulfilled in Him? Or how can you be consistent in saying that IM is acceptable if you don't include the other OT observances?

But there are also legitimite challenges to the other NT only Bible hermeneutic. Such as where do you get authority for your on extra-biblical activities? Such as were listed on several post. Things like song books, song leaders, pulpits, pews, communion cups, collection plates, church buildings, etc... etc... And how do we learn to worship w/out the deep heritage of the OT? Or why did God never say do your assembly just like this?

I believe we need to stick with our convictions on things the Bible clearly states and leave room for God's grace in those areas that get fuzzy. But let's keep conversing. Maybe if we keep searching together we can come to a better understanding of God's revelation. :noddingsmiley:
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: on Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 11:51:30
yikes :blush:
You're a yeller too, huh Arkstfan?
hmmm :wave:
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: Arkstfan on Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 12:56:51
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Guest @ Jan. 28 2003,10:51)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]yikes :blush:
You're a yeller too, huh Arkstfan?
hmmm :wave:[/quote]
That was a re-enactment of the moment it finally hit me.

I grew up with the condemnation and then one day challenged I found myself struggling to defend what I had been taught.

When I asked others for help in the task this picture of a \"sneaky God\" emerged who would punish us not only for those things clear prohibitted but would allow some dangers to be obscured in the text demanding that I strain and make inferences to see that it is a sin because it is against God, it just isn't spelled out like the other stuff.

After wondering why God would be sneaky and not give us a clearer statement it finally dawned on me. There was a reason God left us this record of his word it was so we would know what he wants and what displeases him. He wasn't being sneaky he just didn't address it because when I sing with joy and love for God it doesn't matter if someone strums a guitar or not and if it did he would have said so.
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: kanham on Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 15:05:02
We have a computer. My brother is a tech guy and he glued it together from three other systems. Our son loves the computer. I am constantly amazed at how quickly children pick up how to operate one.

He spends a lot of time playing games on the computer. We have only asked one thing from our son, that he turn the computer off when he is done.

I am often amazed at how he decides to turn it off. He has figured out that you can unplug the power strip from the wall, that will work. He has found that the power strip has a switch, that will work too. He also knows he can turn it off by reaching down and pushing the button on the front of the tower.

Should I be angry with him for not simply going to shut down on the computer?

Someone mention that this was not a discussion about IM, but attitudes around it, and I agree. To me it is a discussion about our heavenly Father and what kind of Father He is. It is a discussion on how we will allow God to be presented to our children, our neighbor and our friend.

I often wonder whose image we are made in if our Creator is the one that many paint him to be.

You may be thinking, why don’t you show your son the right way to turn the computer off. My answer would be, if it was that important, I would.
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: charlie on Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 07:49:16
This poll measures two things:
1. do you think the OT and NT readers of the bible understood the passages relating to IM understood some of them as a binding command or an allowance

2. modern application of those principles (and others) in the worship of the churches of Christ. Sorry, but I really only want CoC members to vote on this one. We can do a more inclusive poll later.

If you pick \"other\" state so in a post on the thread and explain.

Also, if you have any other ideas, put them in a post also.

For those to whom this is a moot point and consider this whole business to be a waste of time let me say I agree, but I acknowledge the definitive nature of this issue to our brotherhood. Just because it ought not be so doesn't mean it isn't so.
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: charlie on Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 10:15:53
For people who are so outspoken that this is a non-issue, you sure seem interested in this poll.
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: marc on Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 10:29:50
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]It is considered legalistic to refuse certain aspects of worship but is equally a legalism of the heart to demand that they be included. The love of Christ is concerned with the heart of your brothers over yourselves. As long as your brother's heart is closed to something as irrelevant as instruments, to force it on them is sinful. Not just to force the instruments themselves, but even the issue of IM on those who stumble by it.

[/quote]

While this is accurate as far as our relationships with our brothers and sisters inside the Churches of Christ goes, the opposite can be said for our relationships with our brothers and sisters outside the Big C Church of Christ.  Our refusal to use instrumental music becomes at times a judgment we make against them, and an obstacle that keeps us from fellowshiping them.  This is what makes this issue so difficult.
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: Bon Voyage on Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 13:38:09
I didn't vote because I am not a part of the RM.  

However,

I wouldn't want to bind instruments on those that think they are wrong for I would be a stumbling block.

I also would not think it is right for someone to try to bind accapella on those who use instruments, for I would be a stumbling block.

It IS a preference.  A preference that can cause a lot of anger.

To say \"Wake up COC, join the 21st century would get people angry.\"  Just as it would to say \"You unity haters drop your instruments.\"
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: kanham on Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 14:39:23
Charlie,

Where does the attitude around IM come from?

I sat with a group of preachers and pastors from the area and we discussed IM. Most sing acapella at some point in a typical service. It isn’t an issue to them either way. It must come up on this board because it is an issue to someone.

A young man was baptized recently. He loves to play the drums and the guitar. Plays in a band. For some reason he just can’t seem to connect with the CoC service. He wants to play his music to bring glory to God but he is told this is something that is not appropriate. In this scenario who is the weaker brother we should be concerned with?

The typical response is if they really loved God they would give IM up. Then if it is not an issue of sin, if we love God, why can’t we give in? When the shoe is put on the other foot what is our answer?
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: spurly on Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 20:53:21
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Hey everyone,

This question is really a matter of theology and hermeneutics. If you hold silence to be prohibitive in matters of the assembly then there is no way you can use instruments in NT worship. If you hold silence to mean there are allowances in matters of the assembly then you can use instruments in NT worship.

If you believe in a hardline CENI type hermeneutic for the practice of the \"church\" there is no way you can use instruments in NT worship. If you have a more loose hermeneutic (not meaning to be perjoritive) you will say that it's allowable because the scriptures don't say \"don't do it.\"

Well, who's right? I know why I sing acapella. I know also why I think it's allowable for me to enjoy gospel music that's not acapella. My question is for those who think it's alright to have it in worship is, \"Do you think that the worship assembly is commanded by God and must the activities during this time have a scriptural authorization? Or is Sunday worship just a convenient time to fellowship with other believers and share the love of Christ?\"

I'm not meaning to be sarcastic at all. I just think that if we can answer this question we could come to a better understanding on the whole IM dilemma. :saint:  :noddingsmiley:[/quote]
Are we commanded to worship God?  Yes.  Did God set up an \"approved pattern\" for worship and pass it on to us through the apostles, or did he give us lots of liberty?  Lots of liberty!

However, I think the main problem with this issue is when people try to squeeze all worship for the week into the one or two hours when we get together as a group.  That's not what worship is.  That is part of worship, but it is not all of what worship is.

Worship is giving our lives to God - every aspect of our lives.  Laying our entire life on the altar for him to use and saying - \"Here I am.  Use Me.\"

If we go to the argument that things not spoken about in Scripture are not allowed we have to take hymnbooks, the NT canon, buildings, pews, carpet, air conditioning, heating, pulpits, communion trays, offering plates, bulletins, computers, suits and ties, dresses, hymns written in the 1700's, responsive readings, sound systems, and many more things away from our worship service that we just take for granted.

No.  Silence does not mean we are not supposed to do it.  Even the advocates of that position pick and choose which issues the Bible is silent about that they want to bind on others.

Kevin
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: on Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 10:29:10
The word acappella did not exist at that time.

Singing meant singing. Not singing while dancing or singing while roofing or singing while doing squats or singing while sewing or singing while drumming or singing while cooking or singing while typing, etc. Singing is singing.

If in the Old Testament, scripture clarifies that one should sing and have instruments, why aren't the verses in the New Testament equally as clear? It's not about liberty to add where God has not spoken. It's about slavery and servanthood to the \"conduct\" of the apostles.

The doctrines of the apostles we are called to follow don't include IM, not historically or Biblically to any level of conclusiveness.

Acappella is a term that was applied to the early church, because the historians that applied the term knew the Christians to be \"without instrumental accompanyment\".
That was their tradition, \"followed\" via the \"doctrines\" and \"examples\" of the apostles, inspired via the Holy Spirit.

It doesn't require assumption because we have the \"example\". That example is the knowledge that the Christians didn't have IM.
 :music:  :)
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: winky on Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 11:09:20
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]However, the parts we are given - we ought to stick to; like singing and praying and meeting to break bread.[/quote]

I feel safe in saying that no one here has said anything about giving up singing, praying or breaking bread together. I am confident that everyone here advocates all three of those activities.
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: on Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 11:21:54
Where is yours, marc? Where's the one that says we don't have to follow the conduct and doctrines of the apostles? We have no, I mean zero, Biblical refrences of a NT church using instruments. They were following the same examples that we are to follow.
Oh yeah, I wasn't talking to you. ;) oops!

:wave: And Kevin if you are suggesting that it was somehow a failure of the apostles to not include IM by pointing out their other shortcomings, I'm afraid that still doesn't negate all those scriptures I listed - (in context.) *wink* ;)
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: on Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 11:49:47
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]but is clearly approved by God--the same God we serve--in the Old Testament.
[/quote]
A God who also approved of the merciless[/us] slaughter of thousands of unbelievers, men who loved their families, women who enjoyed the sunlight and their children with rapture, babies who squirmed and giggled and Jews ran them through.
God's OT approval simply doesn't suffice for what we do today.

Oh, and there's no condemnation going on from me, marc. My points are valid and I'm doing the best I can to present them in a light hearted, loving manner.
Wendy, good question. Actually I only listen to a cappella music myself. There are some fantastic CD's out there without any instruments at all. It's so much more spiritual and timeless. It's not about disaproval to me, there are just so many strong arguments against IM in a NT church. I love my Christian brothers who use instruments. And yes they are certainly Christians to me. The main defense of IM though, is \"hey, the Jews did it, why not me\" or \"the NT doesn't say don't do it, so I can add to the Word if I want to\"
Those aren't scriptural reasons as far as I can tell.

And thanks for your comments on my participation. If I'm ever going to work out why IM is done at all, I've got to discuss it with those that are passionate about adding it to Christianity. Heck, if I was ever going to change I'd have to get all these arguments out and discussed, not holding them in, to do an about face, righ?! *wink*
 :hug:  I appreciate you winky!

And I think Trois made some fantastic points too. I hope all my comments don't push his post off the page.

I only brought up those verses in reference to Kevin's statements on liberty. Yes we have liberty, but it is not without boundaries. Otherwise, why follow the apostle's doctrines at all?

Anyway, this was fun. Perhaps I'll come back to this page someday and mingle with you \"gang-uppers\" again ;)  :wave:
Later!
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: marc on Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 13:01:48
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I grew up with the condemnation and then one day challenged I found myself struggling to defend what I had been taught.

When I asked others for help in the task this picture of a \"sneaky God\" emerged who would punish us not only for those things clear prohibitted but would allow some dangers to be obscured in the text demanding that I strain and make inferences to see that it is a sin because it is against God, it just isn't spelled out like the other stuff.

After wondering why God would be sneaky and not give us a clearer statement it finally dawned on me. There was a reason God left us this record of his word it was so we would know what he wants and what displeases him. He wasn't being sneaky he just didn't address it because when I sing with joy and love for God it doesn't matter if someone strums a guitar or not and if it did he would have said so.

[/quote] :clap:  :clap:  :clap:  :thumbs-up:
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: Barb1957 on Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 15:45:32
Great illustration, kanham!  :thumbup:
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: Jesus4you on Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 07:55:48
There is one sister here who  I do give credit to(  Amen for her consistancy???????????????????).  She leaves instruments out of Bible songs in all aspects of life and worship not just the corporate assembly, which is where most of the  binding acappellians seem to confine their acappella  convictions . :alien:


BTW,
I didn't see this one or I might have picked it, because it raises such a ruckess in our brotherhood.
Commanded, now allowed, but inappropriate
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: charlie on Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 10:29:04
I'm afraid I didn't explain the poll very well. Let me try again.

Instrumental Music (IM) is found in scripture. That should be very important to people who try to live by scripture. There are some passages that could be interpreted as commands, or as allowances. Also, if they are commands they might be interpreted as binding on us today or not. In this poll, you have the opportunity to state whether you believe the passages mentioning IM were ever intended to be interpreted as commands to be obeyed (I'm not talking about the horns at Jericho, I'm talking about IM in corporate worship of God), or if they were allowed and sanctioned by God, if not commanded. You also have the opportunity to express whether having IM in a church of Christ would be appropriate or inappropriate, in your view. Perhaps I should have added one for \"not inappropriate\" or \"doesn't matter\" to each of the categories of \"commanded\" or \"allowed\".

Notice also that there is no choice to put \"forbidden in scripture\" for obvious reasons. I wish some of you had asked for clarification first.
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: charlie on Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 11:37:22
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]your poll results will not be valid because you did not include a 'forbidden or unauthorized' option.  if you ask church of Christ membership specifically to participate it would be better to include what you know will be selected by many in general.
[/quote]
dj,

Actually I thought of that. I based the choices on the assumption that people know that IM is not forbidden anywhere in scripture. Also, you will see that \"not allowed\" is a choice. That would mean the same as \"forbidden\". As to \"unauthorized\" you've got me there. Hopefully we will remember that \"authorized\" means \"commanded or allowed, and appropriate\".
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: Jesus4you on Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 12:28:47
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]singing acappella music.

The stumbling of an IM congregation comes when someone tells them to do away with their instruments. It's about holding on to what you have, demanding you're right to have them, and not letting someone else tell you what to do. Those aren't humble, loving reasons for having IM.

If they have a stumbling block it is when they are then angry and hateful at being told what to do (or not to do rather); they can even go so far as being selfish in their desire to keep what they have. That is their stumbling block. The stumbling block is not the lack of instruments itself. It is the means of getting there.[/quote]
Vessel of Honor,

To an extent I agree with you. But I have to think of this scripture also.

1 Corinthians  10:29 \"For why should my freedom be judged by another's conscience?  If I take part in the meal with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of something I thank God for?\"


  The problem I have and that I think many others here have is that many  in the acapella Church make it a Salvation Issue.  


Blessings,
Lauren
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: segell on Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 15:07:07
Charlie - To me it is a non-issue.  I was suggesting it as a category.  

To answer your question, where I worship, we see no Scriptural significance.  However, I realize many do see significance (up to the silly point - in my view - of making it a matter of unity).  What would a non-believer or seeker of God think when such an issue becomes a matter of division?  

Oh, and by the way, even though we have a contemporary worship service with intrumentation, we actually do have times when we sing w'out accompaniment.  Both are wonderful.

Steve
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: on Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 10:29:58
So should we follow that example or not? ???
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: dgdodd on Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 11:07:45
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (spurly @ Jan. 28 2003,11:56)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]By the way, the God I follow created music.[/quote]
:clap:  AMEN, AMEN and AMEN
 (oh, is a women allowed to say amen in mixed company?)   ;)
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: on Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 11:13:22
wow :doh:
I am definitely through discussing this with you marc. Smarty! Yelling at folks and making fun of their legs. What if I'm sitting in a wheelchair!?:)


[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]It seems to me that the apostles would be following the teachings   of (what we call) the Old Testament.  Here are just a few:[/quote]
It's certainly an interesting idea that the apostles were following the Old Testament teachings. Though most of the time they would have worshipped together in synagogues without music, or so I've heard.
But then I'm forced to wonder: if the examples and doctrines that were given to the churches I referenced, in that list marc doesn't like, included the practices of the OT - like the ones you noted here - why didn't they follow those examples?
 ???
If they were taught to act like Samuel, Chronicles, Psalms, etc. told them to... well, why didn't they? Not that they were infallible, but surely at least one of those first congregations would have used IM if it was in the examples they were to follow. Do ya \"follow\"? ;)

As for Revelation, it is a book of symbols. May sound like a cop out to some of you, but it's fact. There is a lot about heaven that we don't imitate here, and I personally don't believe it to be a physical realm anyway, making physical instruments hard to believe in there. My opinion, I guess.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]By the way, the God I follow created music.[/quote]
No sarcasm intended, but He also created guns and atom bombs and gas chambers and immodest clothing and satan - and I won't be adding any of these to my repetoire.  :lookaround:
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: Arkstfan on Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 11:29:49
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (spurly @ Jan. 28 2003,09:56)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Should we follow the example of the apostles?

If so then we should argue and bicker over who gets to go on a missions trip.

We should withdraw fellowship from people who are not circumcised, following Peter's example.

We should sin, because the apostles did.

Nope, the apostle were not perfect.  I choose to follow God and his son Jesus Christ.

By the way, the God I follow created music.

Kevin[/quote]
We should go to trusted men of God for their advice and ignore it just as Paul did when the Jerusalem Council said don't eat sacrificed meat.
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: winky on Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 13:22:41
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]those that are passionate about adding it to Christianity[/quote]

just to clarify, the impression I get from people on this board is not a sweeping demand to add instruments to churches that currently don't have them, but rather a plea for acceptance for those who choose to use them.

I'm glad to know that, from what Abs said in that last post, that he/she is not condemning those who do use instruments, so we're just basically debating whether or not it is appropriate or wise to use instruments.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--] Sure all of life is worship. But saying that doesn't negate the fact that there can also be special activities which happen at special times. For example, I don't take communion at work. Yet it's authorized as worship to God.

Let's not treat each other like \"suckas'\". IM in the OT was used at specific times for specific purposes. I mean I would never walk into my bedroom and use a trumpet to awaken my wife! At least not if I wanted to live [:D] ! So let's get off this \"worship is life\" mantra to say that IM in worship is acceptable. [/quote]

It's not that every, single, little thing we do in life is worship. It's that worship isn't confined to the assembly, that's all.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I'm just saying that people aren't stupid or unenlitened or legalists because they see this issue as a valid consideration. [/quote]

Good point. A lot of people I know and love who are not at all legalistic see this as a valid consideration.
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: marc on Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 11:58:45
Finally figured out that I was being accused of yelling for posting a two-letter word in all caps.  This was a typo. Because of the context it did appear to be deliberate, and all I can offer are my assurances that it was not.  I frequently use italics for this very reason--I know many people are offended by caps.

Personally, I find these discussions are helped when a question that is asked is addressed directly. Then offenses can be explained. I apologize for the offense.
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: charlie on Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 08:09:14
okay, everybody add one to the third choice when you look at it.
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: on Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 10:22:59
I would say \"no\" to the actual post: \"IM in the churches of Christ, is it for us today?\"

There is no doubt that it's a point of division in the brethren; and points of division are best done away with for the cause of unity and Christianity.

It's just not worth it, to fight for having instrumental music when it causes hate. It's a stumbling block because the attitudes are wrong (not necessarily the instruments themselves), the hate is wrong and it is Christ like to remove that stumbling block and free your brethren from their struggles.

It is considered legalistic to refuse certain aspects of worship but is equally a legalism of the heart to demand that they be included. The love of Christ is concerned with the heart of your brothers over yourselves. As long as your brother's heart is closed to something as irrelevant as instruments, to force it on them is sinful. Not just to force the instruments themselves, but even the issue of IM on those who stumble by it.

If your brother runs the race and you throw a log in front of his feet by adding something to worship that may OR may not be Biblically acceptable, he will trip! Such issues are sinful in their divisiveness.

And truly there is no reason to have instruments, my friends. Christians may sing to God with all their heart and passion and spirit and mind and strength whether IM is playing or not! The point is that we should all be one in mind in order to truly affect this world. We cannot be divided in the churches of Christ (little c) and expect to stand. And a quest for unity would suggest that we wholeheartedly remove those issues of division from our practices.

And truly IM is one of those issues.

I agree wholehearted with wendy that the most appropriate way to worship is more concerned with spirit than the abilities of the flesh. All things are permissible, but not all are edifying, not all things are beneficial. IM is neither beneficial nor harmful inherently. But the strain and pain and poor image it makes of Christ IS harmful by it's divisiveness. And that harm should simply be laid to rest in humility and love.
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: charlie on Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 11:32:49
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Charlie, are you upset with us b/c we didn't answer exactly what you meant for us to answer? You seem a little irrritated [/quote]
You're right, Wendy. I did seem irritated. I'm sorry.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]How am I doing, Charlie? Is it any better? [/quote]
You're doing fine. Based on you comments, I would have selected commanded, but inappropriate. Since you said IM was neither commanded nor condemned in the NT, and it was commanded in the OT, that would mean it was commanded in scripture. In this poll, I was treating the bible as a whole.
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Why is it acceptable for IM to destroy unity with other brothers because it will hurt our unity with our sectarian brothers?[/quote]
Kanham,
What is the source of the destruction of unity? Is it the questionable practice or the attitudes surrounding it? Talking about IM as being divisive is like punching someone in the face and then accusing them of hurting your fist. Still, you make a valid point that goes to the appropriateness or inappropriateness of IM in the churches of Christ.
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: on Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 12:57:56
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Why is it always people who use intruments who are dividing the body of Christ, instead of people who choose not to use them.  It seems like many more Christians have come to the conclusion that instrumental music is not a sin.  It seems to me the ones causing division are the ones who are trying to force the majority who worship with instruments to toss them away.[/quote]

I, for one, do not propose that instrumental music is a sin.
The attitudes surrounding the issue are the sin. I am trying to measure one against the other.

*     IM congregations have no problem singing an acappella song.
*     Non-IM congregation do have a problem singing with instruments there.

Everyone finds acappella acceptable. Therefore that is the reasonable direction to lean if everyone truly seeks unity.

If a man tries to take your overcoat, give to him your shirt as well. Don't try to hold on to it just because the majority of people wear shirts. At least that seems like a fair parallel.

My preference is for everything to be considered permissible by everyone. That is simply asking too much, as far as i can see in the brothers I interact with, because everything permissible will never always be beneficial. Approached objectively and humbly, is IM truly more beneficial than harmful?

Alos may i point out that most people are singing only. There may be an instrument in the room, but most people do not have an instrument. IM, taken to its full extent, would see an instrument in everyone's hands. Which makes me wonder - if everyone had a trumpet to their lips, would that fulfill the type of worship the apostles suggested for us - singing?

We all change the church one at a time, starting with us. And love is the only answer. If a person who finds IM to be questionable acts through love, and accepts the brother who make use of instruments, that is wonderful! And if one who uses IM acts through love and removes the organ for the sake of Christ and his brethren, that too is wonderful!

So what would the result of mutual love be? The churches of Christians would not use instruments, and also would have the attitude that if someone did they are still brothers (or sisters) in Christ.

I'm curious too Kevin, my friend. I appreciate your words very much. May I humbly ask if the opinions of the majority makes for \"rightness\" in the sight of Christ?

I also wonder of everyone: If there were animals sacrificed to Baal, or Allah, or to Saint Anthony; And all this meat was mailed to the doorsteps of our churches with their history included; Would we truly, i mean truly in a convicted way, would we truly be comfortable having a pot luck feast of meat sacrificed to altars and idols of other Gods?

Maybe the Bible teaches that it's permissible, but by faith in my God Jehovah, I personally would abstain from anything associated with this worship of false gods. It would not be beneficial to my Christian growth or search for a more complete way/church. How about you all, truthfully?

I wouldn't tell others that they couldn't eat it, by my love for them. And they wouldn't eat it themselves, by their love me.
Perhaps that result is applicable here to IM.

*!   And, right on Lauren! Making IM a salvation issue is simply foolish in my humble opinion. One's freedom is not to be judged by another's conscience. One can do anything one wants. A Christians \"do-ings\" are governed by love. Loving my brother (as applies to BOTH sides of this issue) means that we find a way to unity. That's all i seek.
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: on Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 15:07:05
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (david johnson @ Jan. 27 2003,2:09)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]kevin:

there are NOT many more im-ers than there are a cappellaists

dj[/quote]
I would think Kevin is right, re: more churchs use IM.  I believe all Methodist churchs use IM.   This is not scientific, but just randomly visting Christian churchs, I think you would find far more with instrumental music than not.   Doesn't IM mean \"instrumental music\"?  
Do people want all Methodist churchs to go acapella for unity sake?   Why do you need that for unity sake?   We must be \"exactly\" alike to have unity?...why?   We'll never reach unity if that's the standard for it.
I'm completely confounded with this discussion.   Funny made the statement (over on abortion)...re: why can't the focus be on bringing people to Christ?  I don't mean to offend...really, I don't....but I don't get why this discussion?   Can anyone explain why it has monumental importance?  
Really confused Shorty
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: marc on Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 10:34:37
The word may not have existed at the time, but neither did most of the other words in the Bible--it was written in a different language.  The Concept existed.  And the phrase singing without instruments surely existed.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Singing meant singing. Not singing while dancing or singing while roofing or singing while doing squats or singing while sewing or singing while drumming or singing while cooking or singing while typing, etc. Singing is singing.[/quote]

Why?  I've heard people sing with instrument; does this mean they weren't \"singing\"?  

I'm still looking for the scripture reference.  I don't see a single one in your reply.  Show me the example and explain why it is different than the examples I've listed above that we don't follow.
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: winky on Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 11:05:59
Should we follow the example of the apostles?

Abs, do you greet your fellow Christians with a holy kiss? Not only an example of this, but a command! And if the command to sing rules out all other forms of music, then this holy kiss command should rule out other forms of greeting. None of this hand shaking or hugs business.

Do you meet each week in someone's home for worship? That's the approved example of what the apostles did, isn't it? Wouldn't meeting in a building go against this example?
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: marc on Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 11:15:18
Not sure where I yelled, but I'm still looking for that example from scripture.
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: on Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 11:29:50
Christian living is worship.
Do you suggest that we only obey the apostles' examples in certain areas, not all areas? That they refer only to those exact occurances with no wider application!?
 ???
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: Trois on Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 11:52:37
We need to think our line of thought through just a little. Sure all of life is worship. But saying that doesn't negate the fact that there can also be special activities which happen at special times. For example, I don't take communion at work. Yet it's authorized as worship to God.

Let's not treat each other like \"suckas'\". IM in the OT was used at specific times for specific purposes. I mean I would never walk into my bedroom and use a trumpet to awaken my wife! At least not if I wanted to live :D! So let's get off this \"worship is life\" mantra to say that IM in worship is acceptable. I'm not being definitive here, I'm just saying that people aren't stupid or unenlitened or legalists because they see this issue as a valid consideration. :idea:
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: on Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 13:52:03
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Let's not treat each other like \"suckas'\". IM in the OT was used at specific times for specific purposes. I mean I would never walk into my bedroom and use a trumpet to awaken my wife! At least not if I wanted to live ! So let's get off this \"worship is life\" mantra to say that IM in worship is acceptable. I'm not being definitive here, I'm just saying that people aren't stupid or unenlitened or legalists because they see this issue as a valid consideration. [/quote] :clap:  :clap:  :clap:  :thumbs-up:  :clap:  :clap:
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: Apollos on Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 18:28:49
abs,

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]The main defense of IM though, is \"hey, the Jews did it, why not me\" or \"the NT doesn't say don't do it, so I can add to the Word if I want to\"
Those aren't scriptural reasons as far as I can tell. [/quote]

I would not want to waste space copying and pasting from another thread. If you have time, please turn to page three and look up 'New IM Topic'. The main defense is not just that the Jews did it, but that the word 'psallo' allows it.

Another comment. If harps in Revelation is merely symbolic, I wonder why God chose such a symbol if worshipping God with musical instruments is a sin.
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: segell on Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 08:13:39
Charlie

I voted \"other\".  How about:  Not an Issue?

Steve
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: david johnson on Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 11:31:07
charlie:

your poll results will not be valid because you did not include a 'forbidden or unauthorized' option.  if you ask church of Christ membership specifically to participate it would be better to include what you know will be selected by many in general.
i state that availbale arguments for both pro and con positions are weak and the use is 'unauthorized'.  whether or not authorization is a requirement is a different issue, though.

dj
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: charlie on Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 12:04:34
So if someone asks, \"hey, how come you guys don't have instruments? There's nothing against it in the NT, and they used them in the OT,\" and we come back with, \"well, the NT chuch didn't use them, and besides, many in our number would have a problem with it,\" I ask you this: whose authority are we going by? The NT church? The people with the problems?

Another question: if everybody in your congregation realizes that there's nothing wrong with IM, then is there anything wrong with having IM in your congregation? That may seem a silly question, but think about it.
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: spurly on Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 16:44:30
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (david johnson @ Jan. 27 2003,2:09)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Things that make you go hummm:

Why is it always people who use intruments who are dividing the body of Christ, instead of people who choose not to use them.  It seems like many more Christians have come to the conclusion that instrumental music is not a sin.  It seems to me the ones causing division are the ones who are trying to force the majority who worship with instruments to toss them away.

Just a thought,

Kevin[/quote]
kevin:

there are NOT many more im-ers than there are a cappellaists

dj[/quote]
David,

The only Christians I know of who choose not to use any instruments at any time are in the \"Church of Christ\" denomination.

If there are others, please correct me.  

However, the rest of Christendom (Catholic, Methodist, Christian Church, Lutheran, Anglican, Episcopalian, etc.) see no problem with allowing instruments to enhance our worship of the God who created music.

When compared to Christendom as a whole, the \"Church of Christ\" denomination is very small.

So yes, David, there are many more people in Christendom who choose to use IM than those who choose to throw it out.

Couldn't let that slip by.

Kevin
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: Eric on Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 01:12:17
I am surprise I have not voiced this on here already, but you cannot argue the stumbling block reference here, because all those who would suggest that IM is sin will not use it and would condemn those who do.  The issue of a stumbling block is that they will participate in an act that will make them think less of God and lose their faith.  Eating meat in Romans was about Christians who would then just add God to their pantheon of gods that they worshipped and never really commit their lives to him.  No, IM is not a stumbling block.

We are going to discuss this issue (the elders & me and wives).  Should be interesting, then we will have other discussions that are more congregational.  Even more interesting.

Among the different groups that sing acapella are the Brethen.  They use instruments in their gospel service, but in the Communion service they sing acapella and their meeting is a bit more towards what James described for the house group he meets with.  

Eric
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: marc on Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 10:38:05
btw, I know of some people who do a wonderful job of worhsipping God by singing while roofing. :D
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: spurly on Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 10:56:20
Should we follow the example of the apostles?

If so then we should argue and bicker over who gets to go on a missions trip.

We should withdraw fellowship from people who are not circumcised, following Peter's example.

We should sin, because the apostles did.

Nope, the apostle were not perfect.  I choose to follow God and his son Jesus Christ.

By the way, the God I follow created music.

Kevin
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: Arkstfan on Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 11:28:03
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Guest @ Jan. 28 2003,09:29)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Singing meant singing. Not singing while dancing or singing while roofing or singing while doing squats or singing while sewing or singing while drumming or singing while cooking or singing while typing, etc. Singing is singing.[/quote]
So Frank Sinatra didn't sing because he was accompanied?

Fred Astaire didn't sing because he danced as he sang?
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: brandt on Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 11:35:06
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Guest @ Jan. 28 2003,11:29)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Christian living is worship.
Do you suggest that we only obey the apostles' examples in certain areas, not all areas? That they refer only to those exact occurances with no wider application!?
 ???[/quote]
abs,

I think it is understood in this conversation that we are talking about the corporate worship assembly.

I do agree that all of our life should be in worship to God, but in the context of this conversation, it is corporate.

Also, I would like to say that I ditto Wendy's comment on your thoughts - I appreciate your debate method in keeping in the Spirit of Christ.  

Brandt
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: marc on Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 12:04:59
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]We need to think our line of thought through just a little. Sure all of life is worship. But saying that doesn't negate the fact that there can also be special activities which happen at special times. For example, I don't take communion at work. Yet it's authorized as worship to God.

Let's not treat each other like \"suckas'\". IM in the OT was used at specific times for specific purposes. I mean I would never walk into my bedroom and use a trumpet to awaken my wife! At least not if I wanted to live ! So let's get off this \"worship is life\" mantra to say that IM in worship is acceptable. I'm not being definitive here, I'm just saying that people aren't stupid or unenlitened or legalists because they see this issue as a valid consideration. [/quote]

I agree that there is a difference between corporate worship and our everyday lives.  If my questions had ever been responded to, this is likely the turn my discussion with abs would have taken.  The question then becomes whether God left us specific instructions for our method of singing as part of corporate worship.  And if not, how do we define what type of singing is acceptable and what type is not?
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: Arkstfan on Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 14:03:50
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (winky @ Jan. 28 2003,12:22)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I'm glad to know that, from what Abs said in that last post, that he/she is not condemning those who do use instruments, so we're just basically debating whether or not it is appropriate or wise to use instruments.[/quote]
But once it becomes a question of appropriate or wise doesn't that shift the issue to the congregation to determine their practice?

Once that shift has taken place then we leave them to their devices if there is congregational autonomy.
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: charlie on Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 08:54:15
Steve,

Okay, so it's not an issue. But surely there is some reason in your mind as to why you have or don't have IM in your worship.
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: winky on Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 11:21:46
Kanham,

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Why is it acceptable for IM to destroy unity with other brothers because it will hurt our unity with our sectarian brothers? [/quote]

I may be naively optimistic, but can we not have both? I think that's what people are advocating here (vessel, Arkst, etc.) Not using instruments if it will create stumbling blocks for some within your church, but not condemning those at other churches (or other denominations) who do use it, in the interest of unity with them.

Wendy
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: Arkstfan on Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 12:15:14
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (winky @ Jan. 27 2003,10:21)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I may be naively optimistic, but can we not have both? I think that's what people are advocating here (vessel, Arkst, etc.) Not using instruments if it will create stumbling blocks for some within your church, but not condemning those at other churches (or other denominations) who do use it, in the interest of unity with them.

Wendy[/quote]
Do you mind if I join you in naive optimism?

I don't want our brothers to dump IM to fit what I'm comfortable with and I don't want to add it where it isn't present if it will create problems. Though I must add that my comfort level has grown quite a bit since we now do have some mid-week services with instruments (like Woodmont does) but I'm not ready for Sunday morning services to be instrumental, besides it would defeat one of the purpose in planting this congregation which was to be a grace-centered contemporary congregation that would be a comfortable home for people who grew up in the churches of Christ.
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: segell on Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 15:15:38
Charlie -

I have to apologize (just backread the thread).  I did misunderstand the poll.  Sorry about that.

Steve
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: on Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 09:24:10
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Did God set up an \"approved pattern\" for worship and pass it on to us through the apostles, or did he give us lots of liberty?  Lots of liberty!
[/quote]
vs.

Philippians 3:17
Brethren, join in following my example, and observe those who walk according to the pattern you have in us.


2 Thessalonians 3:7
For you yourselves know how you ought to follow our example, because we did not act in an undisciplined manner among you,

3 John 1:9
I wrote something to the church; but Diotrephes, who loves to be first among them, does not accept what we say.
(this is a negative thing)


1 Timothy 4:6
In pointing out these things to the brethren, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, constantly nourished on the words of the faith and of the and doctrine which you have been following.

2 Timothy 3:10
Now you followed my teaching, conductpurpose, faith, patience, love, perseverance,
conduct is example in other translations


2 Thessalonians 3:14
If anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of that person and do not associate with him, so that he will be put to shame.

2 Thessalonians 3:9
not because we do not have the right to this, but in order to offer ourselves as a model for you, so that you would follow our example.

2 Thessalonians 3:4
We have confidence in the Lord concerning you, that you are doing and will continue to do what we command.

Acts 5:29
But Peter and the apostles answered, \"We must obey God rather than men.

Philippians 2:12
So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;

2 Thessalonians 3:6
Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from every brother who leads an unruly life and not according to the tradition which you received from us.

liberty? does that mean freedom from the pattern, command, example, conduct, tradition, purpose, doctrine, and obedience of the apostles/ Holy Spirit?
(please accept this list not as an attack, but for the sake of learned discussion)
if one lives \"according to the traditions received from [the apostles]\", can one do things outside that tradition and still be living according to that tradition?
if we \"continue to do what [the Holy Spirit] commands\" was using IM one of those commands?
how much do these verses apply to what we ought to be doing together?
 ???  :D
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: on Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 10:48:22
Interesting. I haven't seen a scriptural reply from you yet either.
What exactly do you do with the list of scriptures i posted here?

Do you ignore them? Give me scripture that shows we don't have to obey the exmple of the apostles. Then I'll give you verses that say \"singing without music\".

You cannot, therefore I will not. You know them anyway, you could only want them listed to pick them apart. Those I listed, however, are awful hard to pick apart I imagine.

You give me verses for your stance, now.

At least give me verses as why the scriptures I listed for you don't apply to you, before you demand more verses from me! ;) sheesh!

You quoted me and commented on \"singing with...\", but did you not read the following sentence in my post?

The burden must be on those who seek to add to the doctrines of the Holy Spirit. Unfortunately in this case that person seems to be you. No offense to you at all, but the conduct of the apostles is not wisely disregarded.

 :priest:
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: marc on Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 10:55:55
abs:  Checked the scriptures you posted again.  NO reference to music of any kind.  Please tell me which scripture is  relevant, because, frankly I can't find it.  I see a bunch of out-of-context verses about following examples, but not a word giving an example of the kind of music we are to use in worship.

If you have a leg to stand on, please roll up your pant leg and show it.
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: winky on Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 11:28:11
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Let's make sure this dialogue stays in the spirit of Christ and the spirit of seeking. Inorder to really give good answers we all have to first seek to understand what the other person is talking about.[/quote]

I agree. Abs, I hope you don't feel like everyone is ganging up on you. A lot of people here feel strongly about the issue(s), as you can probably tell. I, for one, appreciate your thoughts and your spirit of discussion. It's good for us to have different viewpoints to discuss here. That's the whole point. Anyway, thanks for participating and for not getting bent out of shape or attacking people personally, as we've all seen happen before!

OK, back to the topic.

Wendy
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: winky on Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 11:33:24
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Christian living is worship.[/quote]

Exactly! So, why do some people set up this whole set of strict rules for the \"worship\" assembly that don't apply to the rest of Christian living? (I'm assuming here that you don't disapprove of instrument playing altogether, just instrument playing in worship.)
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: charlie on Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 12:03:37
Let's step back a minute and ask ourselves why the early church didn't use IM. History shows that IM was used in temple settings (which the early church was part of for a little while, but only the Jewish Christians who worshipped in the temple) and in pagan settings (theaters, and pagan religious rituals). Can you not see how, to the early church, IM carried the stigma of either the old way of Jewish life (having to worship God in the temple, which Jesus said they would be getting away from) or the old pagan ways. Either way, IM may have represented an unsanctified life outside of Christ just the same way as eating blood or meat sacrificed to idols.
In the progress of time, however, the entire Christian community matured to the point that IM did not carry that stigma. By that time, however, there was another reason not to use IM: tradition. Over an even longer time, innovation overwhelmed tradition and IM was slowly introduced. But that was so far removed from the days of the temple (Jewish or pagan) that there was absolutely no idolatrous connotation whatsoever. It was simply an effort to bring another of the talents that God gave to man into the worship setting, and to restore a form of worship that God had asked for through David and Moses.

Of course there were objections. They were tampering with their long a capella tradition and arguably ruining the sweet sound of the pretty singing. But eventually, IM prevailed having not been opposed by a single scriptural argument.

Until the Restoration Movement. Early on, there were the usual objections to noisy, out-of-tune instruments overwhelming the sweet tones of the human voice. But a few generations later, these objections started being laced with scripture references that were supposed to bring God's opinion to bear on the matter. Before long, it became right in God's sight to only sing, and soon after, it became sinful to use instruments.

At least in the opinion of some. The RM congregations were well divided over the issue, but content to have fellowship regardless of the presence or absense of IM. A few (very few) preachers started making some real noise, however, and convinced (or frightened) others to their viewpoint, and by the beginning of the 20th Century (yes it happened that late) non-IM churches were no longer allowed to have fellowship with IM churches. A generation later, virtually every member forgot it was ever any other way, and your mainstream CoC members were taught to look over the breadth of history at the apostate \"believers\" who couldn't see the plain teaching of Eph 5:19 and Col. 3:16 and bemoan their false teaching and their foolish and damnable thinking.

Amazing, isn't it, how much louder 100 year-old objections sound than 3000 year-old scriptures?
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: on Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 14:07:20
Having read the recent posts here I'm curious -if that was the case, then why were the early churches held accountable to the leadership of the apostles? Was their autonomy secondary?
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: Bob Williams on Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 08:57:39
I voted other; I didn’t see a designation that seemed to say what I believe.  IM was commanded in certain circumstances under the old covenant of law.  There is no command regarding the specifics of music for those under the covenant of grace (see my comments on Eph 5:19 and Col 3:16 on other IM topic), other than it is to be from the heart.

Bob Williams ~ [A HREF=\"http://www.biblelessons.com/origins.html\"]
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: winky on Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 11:17:21
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--] I wish some of you had asked for clarification first.[/quote]

:help: Charlie, are you upset with us b/c we didn't answer exactly what you meant for us to answer? You seem a little irrritated (this may be a problem with seeing words but not the nonverbal part of what you're saying). I don't feel like I (or most of the others) missed your point completely, we may have gone off topic a bit or not stated it in exactly the terms you used. But it wasn't an intentional insult or anything, just a misunderstanding! I'll try again!

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Instrumental Music (IM) is found in scripture. That should be very important to people who try to live by scripture. There are some passages that could be interpreted as commands, or as allowances. Also, if they are commands they might be interpreted as binding on us today or not. In this poll, you have the opportunity to state whether you believe the passages mentioning IM were ever intended to be interpreted as commands to be obeyed (I'm not talking about the horns at Jericho, I'm talking about IM in corporate worship of God), or if they were allowed and sanctioned by God, if not commanded. [/quote]

My understanding is that IM was commanded in the OT. In the NT, I believe it was neither commanded nor condemned. So, that's what I was focusing on in my first post - the NT grace covenant (where we are not given a specific, detailed commands about how to worship), rather than the law covenant of the OT (where worship was spelled out and dictated specifically). I guess that means my answer is \"OT - commanded; NT - allowed\" if choosing from among your options.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]You also have the opportunity to express whether having IM in a church of Christ would be appropriate or inappropriate, in your view.[/quote]

I can't really make a blanket statement here for all churches of Christ. In some cases, I think it might be appropriate. I imagine that in the majority of cases, it would not be, but I can't say it is inappropriate for ALL churches of Christ.

How am I doing, Charlie? Is it any better? :p
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: on Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 11:41:51
Marc i agree somewhat with you. That judgement against those who employ instruments can be so wrathful and innapropriate.
Thus the issue is, of course, not just the right or lack of the right to have instruments, it is the heart of the one who approves or disapproves.

I personally don't know of any brethren who stumble by singing acappella music.

The stumbling of an IM congregation comes when someone tells them to do away with their instruments. It's about holding on to what you have, demanding you're right to have them, and not letting someone else tell you what to do. Those aren't humble, loving reasons for having IM.

If they have a stumbling block it is when they are then angry and hateful at being told what to do (or not to do rather); they can even go so far as being selfish in their desire to keep what they have. That is their stumbling block. The stumbling block is not the lack of instruments itself. It is the means of getting there.

To not have IM is not a stumbling block. Christians can be assured that they are doing right by God if they are simply singing. However to have IM is a stumbling block because after years of debate, by many smarter than me, it simply cannot conclusively be found in the NT Christianity.

*     To add IM to non-IM brethren is a sin by causing divisiveness and strife = tools of the devil. The non-IM congregation can know that their singing is sufficient Biblically, but do not have the same iron clad knowledge for the addition of instruments.

*    To remove IM from a congregation is a stumbling block only in that individuals may try to keep them by their selfishness = tool of the devil. It is not a sin to not have the IM and does not harm your worship to not have IM. At least I've yet to see a church split over an acappella song they may sing, though an instrumental song certainly has had that effect for others.

\"Hardlining\" this issue on both sides is such a mistake. To refuse to fellowship Christians for using IM, like you mentioned Marc, is simply destructive to our need for unity. And the insults and presumptiveness I've seen many IM-ers hurl verbally and in books against those who see no reason to add them is equally destructive. Our stances have been \"of Satan\" on both sides. To rectify that means more work on the heart all around.

To choose in your heart to accept IM relies so much on Old Testament relationships with God that it likely can never be seen as acceptable all the way around for a New Testament church.

But to chose in your heart to reunite the church of Christ by using your voices alone in praise will certainly have New Testament scriptural basis all the way around for a New Testament church - both in the means of worship and the action of re-unification.

This, then, is the issue of \"a more perfect way\". The first may be perfect, but the second is more perfect. Or a better translation seems to be \"a more complete way\", as we seek to complete ourselves by being one in spirit and truth, in worship and love.
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Vessel I agree with you though not as strongly.
I love the acapella tradition. I don't care to see a push to go instrumental in the churches of Christ, though I would shout with joy if we could just reach the point of accepting that it is a matter of preference rather than law whether we use them or not.
I'd be happy with telling the Disciples that we were wrong for condeming them for having an organ and sharing a nice brotherly hug.[/quote]
And Amen to your post Arkstfan! While my position does seem strong against IM, it is not because I can prove it as a sin, heavens no! It is strong because our lack of unity keeps souls from finishing the race both within the church and among those who observe our triffling from outside; and brothers that is a pain that rends my very soul and swells tears upon my heart like the pounding of an ocean upon a single grain of sand.

Woe to us! A sinful and broken generation, far removed from the joy of unity in Christ our Lord prayed for. [/u]

It would indeed be a fantastic day when all believers may accept many areas of division as mere preference, and this may indeed be such an issue. Such hugs are so needed my friend. Thanks!
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: charlie on Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 13:45:52
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I also wonder of everyone: If there were animals sacrificed to Baal, or Allah, or to Saint Anthony; And all this meat was mailed to the doorsteps of our churches with their history included; Would we truly, i mean truly in a convicted way, would we truly be comfortable having a pot luck feast of meat sacrificed to altars and idols of other Gods?

Maybe the Bible teaches that it's permissible, but by faith in my God Jehovah, I personally would abstain from anything associated with this worship of false gods. It would not be beneficial to my Christian growth or search for a more complete way/church. How about you all, truthfully?[/quote]

We all know that an idol is nothing in the world. Hypothetically, we may have former Baal worshippers in our midst, but we all know that'll never happen. Former Catholics would probably laugh at a piece of meat signed, \"sacrificed to St. Anthony\" so no problem there. And former Muslims still worship Allah, they just now believe that he came, lived and died and was raised for our sins (Allah be praised!).

So to answer your question about whether I would be comfortable in my conscience eating that meat, I would say unreservedly yes.

The goal of compromise is not to straddle the fence permanently, but to appeal to everyone while teaching them all the truth of the matter. That way, the temporary crisis is diverted and, in time, you have everyone eating together with a clear conscience.

Paul was dealing with the consciences of former idolaters. We in the 21st C are well past that issue (at least in the worship of gods; not sure what other things we are guilty of idolizing within our worship settings). Now what we've done is created an issue to get over. We have some NT examples of compromise for the sake of the body (Acts 15, Rom 14, etc.) and we have other examples of telling people who are imposing their laws on others to stop it or face God guilty of division and hypocrisy (Matt 23). So on the IM debate, which is it going to be?
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: Trois on Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 20:10:59
Hey everyone,

This question is really a matter of theology and hermeneutics. If you hold silence to be prohibitive in matters of the assembly then there is no way you can use instruments in NT worship. If you hold silence to mean there are allowances in matters of the assembly then you can use instruments in NT worship.

If you believe in a hardline CENI type hermeneutic for the practice of the \"church\" there is no way you can use instruments in NT worship. If you have a more loose hermeneutic (not meaning to be perjoritive) you will say that it's allowable because the scriptures don't say \"don't do it.\"

Well, who's right? I know why I sing acapella. I know also why I think it's allowable for me to enjoy gospel music that's not acapella. My question is for those who think it's alright to have it in worship is, \"Do you think that the worship assembly is commanded by God and must the activities during this time have a scriptural authorization? Or is Sunday worship just a convenient time to fellowship with other believers and share the love of Christ?\"

I'm not meaning to be sarcastic at all. I just think that if we can answer this question we could come to a better understanding on the whole IM dilemma. :saint:  :noddingsmiley:
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: brandt on Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 09:31:39
abs,

The problem is, where in the New Testament did God, through the Apostles, give us clear guidelines of worship?  We have the Old Law which was written word-for-word instruction for every task under that covenant.  In the New Testament, do we have a clear cut worship ceremony carved out by scripture that is unmistakingly clear?

Brandt
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: dgdodd on Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 10:53:26
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Guest @ Jan. 28 2003,11:04)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]However, the parts we are given - we ought to stick to; like singing and praying and meeting to break bread. The examples we know of are the traditions and commands and doctrines that all those verses noted that we should follow.

Surely the congregations that were being written to knew what those commands and conducts and teachings were.

These letters were to be circulated to all churches for all time, including ours. So we need to try and find out what traditions and examples these groups were sticking to, to know what teachings came from the apostles.[/quote]
It seems to me that the apostles would be following the teachings   of (what we call) the Old Testament.  Here are just a few:

2 Samuel 6:5
And David and all the house of Israel played before the LORD on all manner of instruments made of fir wood, even on harps, and on psalteries, and on timbrels, and on cornets, and on cymbals.

1 Chronicles 15:16
And David spake to the chief of the Levites to appoint their brethren to be the singers with instruments of musick, psalteries and harps and cymbals, sounding, by lifting up the voice with joy.

Ezra 3:10
And when the builders laid the foundation of the temple of the LORD, they set the priests in their apparel with trumpets, and the Levites the sons of Asaph with cymbals, to praise the LORD, after the ordinance of David king of Israel.

Nehemiah 12:27
And at the dedication of the wall of Jerusalem they sought the Levites out of all their places, to bring them to Jerusalem, to keep the dedication with gladness, both with thanksgivings, and with singing, with cymbals, psalteries, and with harps.

Psalm 150:3
Praise him with the sound of the trumpet: praise him with the psaltery and harp.

Psalm 150:5
Praise him upon the loud cymbals: praise him upon the high sounding cymbals.

   That was just a VERY SMALL sampling of the recorded use of instruments for praise and worship in the OT writings.  That is what the apostles were taught. And what about the example we have in Revelation?  There are instruments at the Throne of God in heaven, why can't we have them here?

Revelation 5:8
And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Revelation 14:2
And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

Just my first thoughts to your post,
Damaris
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: marc on Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 11:12:53
Of course when the NT church sang Psalms they edited out all the references to instruments. :saint:
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: marc on Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 11:25:29
Just a note as to why I'm being so direct and adamant:  This has been talked to death.  I grew up hearing and using these arguments.  I used to know them all, but I see more being invented every day.  This is a divisive issue, not because people want to use instruments, but because people continue to condemn people for doing something that is not even mentioned in the New Testament, one way or another--but is clearly approved by God--the same God we serve--in the Old Testament.

Then, as now, what was most important to God was people's hearts.  He is concerned about our turning to him, taking on his identity, his characteristics.  Read through the New Testament and you see the recurring theme (possibly best expressed in Romans 8), God wants to change his people, to mold them, to make them his representitives on earth.  He wants the world to look at us and see a unity in us that is given by the Spirit and is held together in the bond of peace.

I don't give a whit whether or not we use instruments.  I do care, however, that we continually rip apart the body of Christ by condemning those who disagree with us on matters not addressed in scriptures.  Check out Romans 14-16 and consider this:  who is the divisive person Paul said to make note of?  The one who disagrees or the one who will not put up with differences?
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: marc on Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 11:39:55
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Where is yours, marc? Where's the one that says we don't have to follow the conduct and doctrines of the apostles? We have no, I mean zero, Biblical refrences of a NT church using instruments. They were following the same examples that we are to follow.
Oh yeah, I wasn't talking to you.  oops![/quote]

I thought I was being direct, but maybe I wasn't being clear enough.  I'm going to step back and restate my question:

You have provided a long list of scriptures that say we should follow examples.  Assuming these scriptures mean what you say they mean (and without your referencing the context that is hard to say), these will only be relevant if accompanied by scriptural examples of exclusive acapella singing as part of a corporate New Testament worship service.  I am searching for these examples.  Please help me find them.
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: charlie on Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 14:09:17
who said they were autonomous?
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: Booty on Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 10:02:20
Other. Not an issue. We have neither an instrument nor a building in which to house an instrument, therefore why concern our selves with a trivial tradition of men when we have weightier matters before us?

If we ever do acquire an instrument, it will come from the same source as our building, the grace of Jesus Christ. If He sees fit to furnish us an instrument, we will use it. If not, we will not.
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: kanham on Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 11:17:10
I am trying to follow some thoughts on this thread.

Was Paul wrong to oppose Peter to his face in Antioch when he wouldn’t eat with the Gentiles? Wasn’t circumcision being used as a test of fellowship by some?

If we truly believe that IM is a non issue why is it such an issue?

Why is it acceptable for IM to destroy unity with other brothers because it will hurt our unity with our sectarian brothers?
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: spurly on Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 11:56:02
Things that make you go hummm:

Why is it always people who use intruments who are dividing the body of Christ, instead of people who choose not to use them.  It seems like many more Christians have come to the conclusion that instrumental music is not a sin.  It seems to me the ones causing division are the ones who are trying to force the majority who worship with instruments to toss them away.

Just a thought,

Kevin
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: david johnson on Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 14:09:42
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (spurly @ Jan. 27 2003,11:56)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Things that make you go hummm:

Why is it always people who use intruments who are dividing the body of Christ, instead of people who choose not to use them.  It seems like many more Christians have come to the conclusion that instrumental music is not a sin.  It seems to me the ones causing division are the ones who are trying to force the majority who worship with instruments to toss them away.

Just a thought,

Kevin[/quote]
kevin:

there are NOT many more im-ers than there are a cappellaists

dj
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: david johnson on Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 17:28:33
kevin & shorty:

you are correct and i have miscounted, sorry.

225,000,000  orthodox
   2,000,000   coc
   1,000,000   primitive baptists

are all mostly a cappella.  they come nowhere near 1 billion catholics, but not all catholics endorse instruments.  even so,
the im numbers cannot be surmounted.

dj
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: on Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 10:04:04
No Brandt I don't know that we have clear guidelines for many, many parts of our worship. ;)

However, the parts we are given - we ought to stick to; like singing and praying and meeting to break bread. The examples we know of are the traditions and commands and doctrines that all those verses noted that we should follow.

Surely the congregations that were being written to knew what those commands and conducts and teachings were.

These letters were to be circulated to all churches for all time, including ours. So we need to try and find out what traditions and examples these groups were sticking to, to know what teachings came from the apostles.

A great deal is unsaid, like meeting places, or times to gather, etc.; but that which is said, we can know to be examples and commands and doctrines that we are to \"follow\" and \"keep\" and \"obey\". Does that makes sense?
 ???  :noddingsmiley: ?
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: on Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 10:49:20
I repeat: Should we follow the examples of the apostles or not?
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: Richard on Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 11:11:08
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]  That was just a VERY SMALL sampling of the recorded use of instruments for praise and worship in the OT writings.  [/quote]
Here is another one I came across last Sunday.

20 The LORD will save me,
and we will sing with stringed instruments
all the days of our lives
in the temple of the LORD .

Isaiah 38:20

Richard
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: Arkstfan on Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 11:26:08
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Guest @ Jan. 28 2003,08:24)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Did God set up an \"approved pattern\" for worship and pass it on to us through the apostles, or did he give us lots of liberty?  Lots of liberty!
[/quote]
vs.

Philippians 3:17
Brethren, join in following my example, and observe those who walk according to the pattern you have in us.


2 Thessalonians 3:7
For you yourselves know how you ought to follow our example, because we did not act in an undisciplined manner among you,

3 John 1:9
I wrote something to the church; but Diotrephes, who loves to be first among them, does not accept what we say.
(this is a negative thing)


1 Timothy 4:6
In pointing out these things to the brethren, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, constantly nourished on the words of the faith and of the and doctrine which you have been following.

2 Timothy 3:10
Now you followed my teaching, conductpurpose, faith, patience, love, perseverance,
conduct is example in other translations


2 Thessalonians 3:14
If anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of that person and do not associate with him, so that he will be put to shame.

2 Thessalonians 3:9
not because we do not have the right to this, but in order to offer ourselves as a model for you, so that you would follow our example.

2 Thessalonians 3:4
We have confidence in the Lord concerning you, that you are doing and will continue to do what we command.

Acts 5:29
But Peter and the apostles answered, \"We must obey God rather than men.

Philippians 2:12
So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;

2 Thessalonians 3:6
Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from every brother who leads an unruly life and not according to the tradition which you received from us.

liberty? does that mean freedom from the pattern, command, example, conduct, tradition, purpose, doctrine, and obedience of the apostles/ Holy Spirit?
(please accept this list not as an attack, but for the sake of learned discussion)
if one lives \"according to the traditions received from [the apostles]\", can one do things outside that tradition and still be living according to that tradition?
if we \"continue to do what [the Holy Spirit] commands\" was using IM one of those commands?
how much do these verses apply to what we ought to be doing together?
 ???  :D[/quote]
Philippians 3:17
This verse has nothing to do with worship. It is about struggling against the world pressing toward heaven.

2 Thessalonians 3:7
Not about worship but rather about working and supporting yourself.

3 John 1:9
Being critical of a church for failing to help those who are ministering.

1 Timothy 4:6
Certainly not worship related but more importantly it is in opposition to those who create extra rules.

2 Timothy 3:10
In context this not about worship but learning from Paul's faithfulness despite persecution.

2 Thessalonians 3:14
Continuation of the idea expressed above that Christians should not be idle. Not about worship.

2 Thessalonians 3:4
Again not about worship

Acts 5:29
This isn't even close to being about worship. This is Peter's answer when he is told that he isn't supposed to be preaching about Jesus.

Philippians 2:12
Nothing about a pattern of worship, instead about Christian living.
Title: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: Arkstfan on Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 11:39:26
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Guest @ Jan. 28 2003,10:29)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Christian living is worship.
Do you suggest that we only obey the apostles' examples in certain areas, not all areas? That they refer only to those exact occurances with no wider application!?
 ???[/quote]
Ah, but then if instruments are not to be part of Christian living then we should be work against them in all settings.

You are the one who brought up the verses to support a pattern of worship.

Show me the verse where Christ or any apostle warned against instruments.

Now I can show you plenty about killing, about being prideful, about denying Christ, placing something or someone ahead of God, lying, stealing, cheating, being sexually immoral, hating, ridiculing, obeying the government, etc.

We know that some worship took place at the Temple, we know that instruments were often used there.

WHERE IS THE WARNING AGAINST THEM!!!!

This isn't like power point or bound hymnals that did not exist in 45 AD. Instruments existed, they had been used as part of Jewish worship for century upon century.

Did these men who so boldly proclaimed the truth at risk of death lack the boldness to say \"Stay away from instruments\"? The instruments were there speak up and tell us!

Yet they didn't.
Title: Re: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: spurly on Sat May 24, 2008 - 19:20:48
The top vote getting option on this poll is interesting.  Allowed then and allowed now.  Your thoughts?
Title: Re: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: zoonance on Fri Sep 18, 2009 - 14:39:05
Quote from:  link=topic=3820.msg65577#msg65577 date=1043772560
I repeat: Should we follow the examples of the apostles or not?


This is a basic question isn't it?  Examples of what? They also left their jobs to preach.  Probably a multitude of "apostolic examples" we could think of.  Do we follow Peter before or after he gave into the jewish pressures?  Should we spend more time as a literal prisoner for preaching?  If not why not?  etc etc etc A much better question is "Should we follow the teachings of the apostles or not?  That may or may not be the same. 
Title: Re: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: DCR on Fri Sep 18, 2009 - 14:45:31
Are examples really as binding as commands?

It seems that we tried to make "C" and "E" equal in importance.  I'm not sure how valid that is.
Title: Re: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: HRoberson on Fri Sep 18, 2009 - 15:52:20
Allowed in Scripture.

Whether it's appropriate or not depends on where you are.
Title: Re: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: blituri on Fri Sep 18, 2009 - 16:31:04
Show me the verse where Christ or any apostle warned against instruments.

Now I can show you plenty about killing, about being prideful, about denying Christ, placing something or someone ahead of God, lying, stealing, cheating, being sexually immoral, hating, ridiculing, obeying the government, etc.

We know that some worship took place at the Temple, we know that instruments were often used there.

WHERE IS THE WARNING AGAINST THEM!!!!

This isn't like power point or bound hymnals that did not exist in 45 AD. Instruments existed, they had been used as part of Jewish worship for century upon century.

Did these men who so boldly proclaimed the truth at risk of death lack the boldness to say \"Stay away from instruments\"? The instruments were there speak up and tell us!

False: I am surprised that there are so many people doing what they know will sow discord that have NEVER caught on to to the STORY LINE of the Old or New Testament. On my worse days I would say that most preachers are afflicted with a terminal case of Biblical illiteracy.

Card Class slow ones of the slow group would wonder why the SERPENT in the garden of Edne is really defined as a "musical enchanter(ess) which any one famiiar with serpent worship where they worked out cube root problems on clay tablets would understand.  Why would it not count that Christ in the prophets saw the King of Tyre as a personification of the "singing and harp playing prostitute in the garden of Eden." Or why personified as the king of Babylon would go into "hell" with his harps and burried alive harpists (he has been excavated).  Or why no singer or player could come NEAR any holy thing without getting killed. Did they "just have a bad mental attitude."

You don't grasp the TWO THREADS which any reader would look for in any history.

The Spiritual people lived under the Covenant made by Christ to Abraham and restated by Paul in Galatians 3.
After the fall from that grace because of MUSICAL IDOLATRY at Mount Sinai God turned the Levi tribe over to WORSHIP THE STARRY HOST.

        Guess you missed Jacob's warning in Genesis 49 NOT to attend the assemblies of Levi.
        Guess they were not teaching Acts 7 when you "passed through" the universities.
              Otherwise, being alert and taking food you would ask? WHUT THAT? God abandoned them to
              worship the STARRY HOST?  WHUT THAT? Whut means worship of the starry host.
              Maybe I need to worry about that before spreading HATE against those who can read.

Christ ordained The Church of Christ in the wilderness: the word is Qahal (synagogue) or ekklesia in Stephen's warning which got Him killed by those who "thought" they were doing God's will AT THE TEMPLE.  Guess you missed "whut means Holy Convocation" each REST day (from rituals) to READ and REHEARSE the Word of god.

(http://www.piney.com/h4744.Miqra.gif)

By the direct commands of Christ the Rock that HOLY convocation did not permit anything which was UNHOLY. Now, the Levites were an old Egyptian baby burning cult who "made the lambkins scream out a messate from Molech."  That ALARM which Judas tried on Jesus outlawed:

Vocal or instrumental rejoicing.

Now, if you grasp that the Church of Christ was NEVER more than a school of the Word of God with NO staff infection, even Simple Simons understand 'maybe I should not sing, clap, vibrate my body and play instruments while God is teaching us His Word." But, alas, didn't cover that at ACU etal.

The NATIONAL sacrificial system (not worship) was IMPOSED when the elders said that they wanted a SENIOR PASTOR instead of God so they could worship LIKE the nations: Egypt, Canaan, Assyria, Babylon with their own ziggurat at Temple called Sodom and the Mother of harlots.

God warned that the kings "given in His anger" would rob, steal and drive them into captivity and death. One of the most evil things God says that the king and his MINISTRY TEAM would take their girls for the guys and the young boys to make and blow "instruments of chariots" and be the first killed in battle.

No one but the Civil watchers and the Levites not on duty are the only ones who WORSHIPPED which always meant to FALL ON YOUR FACE in holy terror when all of that EXORCISM NOISE was to "make the lambs dumb before the slauthter." Yes, they musicallly mocked Jesus as prophesied and fulfilled.

The SYNAGOGUE always existed for the SPIRITUAL PEOPLE in every small town where the so colled "worship" was directly commanded by Christ and carried out:

Acts 15:21 For Moses
      of old time hath
      in every city
      them that preach him,
      being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

That ALWAYS happened while the Levites were PROFANING the Sabbath (making music) because they had already been abandoned by God.

Jesus EXAMPLED the synagogue by standing up to READ and then SITTING down decently to permit feedback.

The EKKLESIA used by Jesus met roughly every week for VERBAL DISCUSSION ONLY. The singers, players and other pollutants were consigned by Jesus to the MARKETPLACE where Jesus consigned the pipers, singers and dancers.

Paul used synagogue words and Simple Simon knew that by direct command and universal respect never had a praise service. Simple Simony could understand why.

Paul EXCLUDED the diversities in Romans 14 which would be any thing which arose out of the human mind and specificially in the marketplace where the sects defined by DIET would cross pathes.  In Romans 15 He outlawed SELF PLEASURE which any Greek novice could tell you outlaws all of the HYPOCRITIC artsand crafts or anything which creats "mental excitement."

Paul practiced that in histravels and DIRECTLY COMMANDED Timothy to;

Give attention to the public READING of the Word to Doctrain (contained in the read portion) and exhortation which means encouragement.

Silly Suzy was never so deprived that she or he would even THINK that SINGING externally as an ACT for the "school of the Bible." That was left for an Assyrian who tried out SINGING as an act to sing HIS OWN songs and so violate the direct commands. That ACT did not begin in some congregations until the year 373 and THAT came to split the east from the West churches. 

All historic scholars and all founders of denominations denounced any of the AROUSAL practices when they attended SOLELY to READ the Word, discuss it and do the "evangelism act" of the Lord's Supper.

I am quite sure that none of the troublers have ever dared to speak of any of the prophets writing by the Spirit of Christ who RADICALLY repudiate the whole sacrificlal system and the Civil-Military-Clergy sect as robbers and parasites,.

Most of the temple was in the hands of foreigners and there is no reference of musical sacrifices which has ceased shortly after the Return on the old grand scale.  They were called ROBBERS by Jesus.

No NON-Levite would have been INSIDE the walls if they maked an animal slaughter.
No Levite (singer, player) could come CLOSE to any holy thing.
No civillian had ever done worship with singing and instruments at the temple.

There were thousands of synagogues where they READ the Scripture and preachers like Jesus went OUT to preach.

No honorable Jew did not know that music was a mocking part of paganism always connected to sexuality and homosexuality.

Did you know that Jesus CAST OUT the musical minstrels with a word meaning LIKE DUNG.
The New Testament is filled with words directly condemning musical paganism

The word SPORT or PLAY probably didn't get covered at ACU or the preacherling-changelings would blush out loud when they said that the New Testament does not condemn.

Do you think that the Babylon mother of harlots (Reve 17) using lusted after fruits (Rev 18) as speakers, singers and instrument players John called SORCERERS has nothing to say.  Oh! Didn't cover that when I "passed through."

And yet I am certain that there is one poster who if you heaped ANTI instrument passages on him all day would say "well that's just your opinion" or "that doesn't count."









Title: Re: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: zoonance on Fri Sep 18, 2009 - 19:33:37
Well that's just your opinion and that doesn't count.
Title: Re: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: blituri on Sun Sep 20, 2009 - 13:06:03
Yes, my opinion and the Bible and all historic scholarship agrees.  For instance, David's PRAISE word vizualized in his naked, musical dance with the camp-following girls, is an example what people NATURALLY did who were "turned over to worship the starry host."  That's where your preacher / scholar cannot connect Stephen's life-threatening preaching from the PROPHETS and therefore the CONTRARY view of Christ, get their "God commanded instrumental praise and we must NOT disobey" authority to lie, cheat and steal the church houses of widows: the scribes and pharises as hypocrites (preachers, singers, instrument players" were petty criminals compared to them.

The praise word halal reall means to make yourself vile and all of the performande was "performing the role of women." it was used to threaten sodomy and death to any one who did not turn coward.  Is there a parable there.

It is the ROOT meaning of LUCIFER meaning to make a Light or Sound show to steal people's property.

It is identical to another word. Chalal .  This word links to the END TIME Babylon mother of harlots who uses the lusted after fruits (same term Amos used) who used speakers, singers and instrument players as sorcerers.  John says that these are the SAME ones who HAD deceived the whole world and brought on destruction.

The Mark of the Beast has this connection:

Thereuo motions of the hands of dying persons, decoy, chase afer sexually, to be preyed upon, to be taken captive, hunt after pleasure. Pimplemi of an orator : fill full, satisfy, glut, filled up with wine,

Pindar, Nemean 11 [1] Daughter of Rhea [Eve, Zoe mother of the gods] , you who have received the town hall under your protection, Hestia, sister of Zeus the highest and of Hera who shares his throne, welcome Aristagoras to your dwelling, and welcome to a place near your splendid scepter his companions, [5] who, in honoring you, guard Tenedos and keep her on a straight course; [6] often they worship you, first of the gods, with libations, and often with the savor of burnt sacrifice. Lyres and songs peal among them, and Themis, who belongs to Zeus the god of hospitality, is honored with everlasting feasts...  the dark fields do not give fruit continuously, [40] nor are trees accustomed to bear an equal wealth of fragrant flowers in every circling year, but in alternation. And thus the race of mortal men is led [43] by Fate. But no clear sign comes to mortals from Zeus. Nevertheless we embark on bold endeavors, [45] longing for many deeds, for our limbs are bound by shameless hope, while the streams of foresight lie far away. But we must hunt for due measure in our love of gain. The madness of unattainable desires is too sharp.

Thêrion III. as a term of reproach, beast, creature,  hê mousikê aei tikainon thêrion tiktei

     Which means A NEW STYLE OF SONG, MUSIC OR DRAMA

When Apollo, the Having-fallen star unleashed the LOCUSTS or MUSES, they immediately began sowing discord and breaking up churches of all faiths. Because the muses were adulterers and exercised the AUTHENTIA authority Paul warned about, their "performance" is both erotic and murderous. They bring on WRATH which means an ORGY.

This is a MARK of the beast.

       Sêmeion 2. sign from the gods, omen Kathair-eô to s. to take it down,
       strike the flag,
            as a sign of dissolving an assembly, And.1.36; to tês ekklêsias,
       3. of sorcerers, bring down from the sky, selênên [sign in the moon].  *
       V. less freq. like the simple [heresy] hairein, take and carry off

You will notice that when the lucusts or "musical worship teams" TAKE AND CARRY OFF the whole church other than the few ELECT, they also get the vision or hear voices to STRIKE THE FLAG and shut down the ekklesia as a school of the Bible (only) and REMOVE the name of CHRIST from their public confession.

They DISSOLVE the ekklesia and CONVERT it into a synagogue of Satan: a house of merchandise. This is he same HERESY connected to the SELF-pleasing terms used by Paul in Romans 15.

ZOE (Lucifer) and some of the ACU misleaders are CALLING DOWN GOD'S HOLY FIRE! What is the MARK of the BEASTS calling down the FIRES?

Incentor , o-ris, m. [id.] , one who sets the tune or begins to sing, a precentor, singer I. Lit.: carminis, Paul. Nol. Carm. 15, 32 : [1] incentore [2] canam [3] Phoebo  [Abaddon] [4] Musisque [5] magistris,

SIGN: the Magistris A superior, director or conductor. The MARK of Minerva Meerva (Etruscan, Menfra). One of the great Roman divinities, the goddess of wisdom; identified with the Greek Athené She was worshipped as the patroness of all the arts and trades, and at her festival she was particularly invoked by all who desired to distinguish themselves in any art or craft, such as painting, poetry, further believed to be the inventor of musical instruments, especially wind instruments, the use of which was very important in religious worship, and which were accordingly subjected to a sort of purification every year on the last day of the festival of Minerva.
 
II. Trop., an [A] inciter, exciter: [A1] igneus [C] turbarum, Amm. 15, 1, 2 : civilis belli, Oros. 5, 19 : rebellionis [renewal of war] totius, id. 6, 11 . Flamen Hislop

Incensor I. one who kindles or sets fire to, II. Trop., an inciter, instigator: turbarum,

[2] Căno I. Neutr., to utter melodious notes, to sing, sound, play.  2. Of the faulty delivery of an orator, to speak in a sing-song tone: inclinată ululantique voce more Asiatico canere,  once canituri,Vulg. Apoc. 8, 13 )

PROMOTING DAVID'S PRAISE WORD--HALAL--HAS THE SAME MARK AS CHALAL.

After Enosh when men began to CALL themselves god:

The traditional Jewish interpretation of this verse implies that it marked the beginning of idolatry, i.e. that men starting dubbing "Lord" things that were mere creatures. This is because the previous generations, notably Adam, had already "begun calling upon the name of the Lord", which forces us to interpret הוחל huchal not as "began" but as the homonym "profanated". In this light, Enosh suggests the notion of a humanity (Enoshut) thinking of itself as an absolute rather than in relation to God (Enosh vs. Adam). Wikipedia

Adam
Clark:
Verse 26. Then began men to call upon the name of the Lord.] The marginal reading is, Then began men to call themselves by the name of the Lord; which words are supposed to signify that in the time of Enos
        the true followers of God began to distinguish themselves,
        and to be distinguished by others, by the appellation of sons of God;
        those of the other branch of Adam's family, among whom the Divine worship was not observed, being distinguished by the name, children of men. It must not be dissembled that many eminent men have contended that ljwh huchal, which we translate began, should be rendered began profanely, or then profanation began, and from this time they date the origin of idolatry. Most of the Jewish doctors were of this opinion, and Maimonides has discussed it at some length in his Treatise on Idolatry; as this piece is curious, and gives the most probable account of the origin and progress of idolatry, I shall insert it here.

"In the days of Enos the sons of Adam erred with great error, and the counsel of the wise men of that age became brutish, and Enos himself was (one) of them that erred; and their error was this: they said, Forasmuch as God hath created these stars and spheres to govern the world, and set them on high, and imparted honour unto them, and they are ministers that minister before him; it is meet that men should laud, and glorify, and give them honour. For this is the will of God, that we magnify and honour whomsoever he magnifieth and honoureth; even as a king would have them honoured that stand before him, and this is the honour of the king himself. When this thing was come up into their hearts they began to build temples unto the stars, and to offer sacrifice unto them, and to laud and glorify them with words, and to worship before them, that they might in their evil opinion obtain favour of the Creator; and this was the root of idolatry, &c.

That's NOT just my opinion: that is the well defined MARK OF THE BEAST (the Nachash or Musical Enchanter and not a snake) in the garden of Eden who is called the "singing and harp playing prostitute." It is the MARK OF THE BEAST for the END times as clearly defined by John.  All you have to do is READ that which has written: church history proves that all religious error spewed out of pulpits and schools begun by honest believers.
Title: Re: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: farouk on Sun Sep 20, 2009 - 13:08:46
 ??? ::pondering::
Title: Re: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: Jaime on Sun Sep 20, 2009 - 13:11:51
??? ::pondering::

Don't worry Farouk, we're all kinda  ??? about Blituri.  ::whistle::
Title: Re: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: blituri on Sun Sep 20, 2009 - 14:22:32
The false teachers say and YOU probably believe them when they say that NONE of the church fathers had anything negative to say about "instrumental music in worship."  Well, one of the reasons is that THERE WAS no instrumental noise in the churches.  They go on to claim that Clement said that  "if you want to play the lyre there is no blame." What they don't tell you is that Clement was speaking of what we would call "pot lucks" and even then he allegorizes the lyre.

In the olden days a Bible scholar was a student of the Bible! That's so radically strange these days that it drives people into hand clapping when they hear the UNIVERSAL understanding of these men who knew the languages, knew the PAGANISM that Moses and the prophets wrote against and understood that common decency does not WAGE people to perform what is always called WITCHCRAFT or SORCERY. They find it totally outrageous that anyone would believe John in Revelation when he connects the HYPOCRITIC arts to gender-bents and the Babylon Mother of harlots.  Now, I would never accuse anyone but we HISTORY LITERATE people wonder (not) why so many people want musical performers to get enraptured over: even to the extent of DRIVING OUT the owners from their "synagogue."

Here's another TOKEN bit from all of the 100 PERCENT of all recorded history explaining the Bible which is not a required book for theologians. Whatever you believe about these who were the only era of true scholarship, you will be EXCITED to learn some Bible TIME LINE and that your hireling-preacherling musical people manage to take people captive when they have O PERCENT of information in FAVOR and O PERCENT which does not MARK them as the BEASTS which means A MASSED MULTITUDE.

Recognitions of Clement Chapter XIII.-Origin of Idolatry.

http://www.piney.com/FathRecClemBIV.html#P2218_636510

"But when all these things were done, men turned again to impiety; and on this account a law was given by God to instruct them in the manner of living.

But in process of time, the worship of God and righteousness were corrupted by the unbelieving and the wicked, as we shall show more fully by and by.

Moreover, perverse and erratic religions were introduced, to which the greater part of men gave themselves up,
by occasion of holidays and solemnities, instituting drinkings and banquets,
following pipes, and flutes, and harps, and diverse kinds of musical instruments,
and indulging themselves in all kinds of drunkenness and luxury.

Hence every kind of error took rise; hence they invented groves and altars, fillets and victims, and after drunkenness they were agitated as if with mad emotions.

By this means power was given to the demons to enter into minds of this sort, so that they seemed to lead insane dances and to rave like Bacchanalians; hence were invented the gnashing of teeth, and bellowing from the depth of their bowels; hence a terrible countenance and a fierce aspect in men, so that he whom drunkenness had subverted and a demon had instigated, was believed by the deceived and the erring to be filled with the Deity.

They MISSED the MUSICAL IDOLALTRY at Mount Sinai and Romans 1 which defines this same account which is well documented in the Bible. Bible? You know: that thingy the preacher and musicators had CHAINED to the pulpit this morning.  Paul said in effect that the Corinthians and other "fools love to be fooled." That MAY in fact keep them in captivity to prevent them from doing WORSE spiritual terrorism

Chapter VII.-Sacrificial Orgies. The wrath Paul prevented with men lifting holy palms and the women not waving unholy arms.

"But they did not cease to worship images, by reason of the evil intelligence of the magicians, who found excuses for them,

    which had power to constrain them to the foolish worship

For, establishing this things by magical ceremonies, they assigned them feasts from sacrifices, libations, flutes, and shoutings,
        by means ofj which senseless men, being deceived, and their kingdom being taken from them,
        yet did not desist from the worship that they had taken up with.

To such an extent did they prefer error, on account of its pleasantness, before truth.
        They also howl after their sacrificial surfeit, their soul from the depth, as it were by dreams,
        forewarning them of the punishment that is to befall such deeds of theirs.

I think that being part of the MINORITY of two or three people is the RIGHT side of the issue.

When Paul said "don't get METHUO on wine" the Greek literature defines that as "getting FLUTED down with wine." This word can mean intoxicated with ignorance or intoxicated with passion and pride.  The literature is 100% in agreement that "spiritual intoxication" through the use of music was the PAGAN THING to do.

BEASTS are the "massed multitudes" but to find Jesus you have to go OUTSIDE that group and suffer reproaches with Him. Not too bad since the gospel means REST from the "spiritual anxiety created by religious rituals."  And that is the ONLY place Jesus will be this day teaching the twos and threes DEMANDING rest from whatever oozes out of their minds.
Title: Re: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: farouk on Sun Sep 20, 2009 - 14:39:54
 ::shrug::

??? ::pondering::

Don't worry Farouk, we're all kinda  ??? about Blituri.  ::whistle::
Title: Re: IM in the churches of Christ
Post by: zoonance on Tue Sep 22, 2009 - 07:40:46
Well that's just your opinion and that doesn't count.



Quote from the previous post:  And yet I am certain that there is one poster who if you heaped ANTI instrument passages on him all day would say "well that's just your opinion" or "that doesn't count."


I guess they missed your cue.  I don't know who you had in mind but I obliged anyway.  ::lookaround::