IM in the churches of Christ

[marc]

Of course when the NT church sang Psalms they edited out all the references to instruments. :saint:

[marc]

Just a note as to why I'm being so direct and adamant:  This has been talked to death.  I grew up hearing and using these arguments.  I used to know them all, but I see more being invented every day.  This is a divisive issue, not because people want to use instruments, but because people continue to condemn people for doing something that is not even mentioned in the New Testament, one way or another--but is clearly approved by God--the same God we serve--in the Old Testament.

Then, as now, what was most important to God was people's hearts.  He is concerned about our turning to him, taking on his identity, his characteristics.  Read through the New Testament and you see the recurring theme (possibly best expressed in Romans 8), God wants to change his people, to mold them, to make them his representitives on earth.  He wants the world to look at us and see a unity in us that is given by the Spirit and is held together in the bond of peace.

I don't give a whit whether or not we use instruments.  I do care, however, that we continually rip apart the body of Christ by condemning those who disagree with us on matters not addressed in scriptures.  Check out Romans 14-16 and consider this:  who is the divisive person Paul said to make note of?  The one who disagrees or the one who will not put up with differences?

[marc]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Where is yours, marc? Where's the one that says we don't have to follow the conduct and doctrines of the apostles? We have no, I mean zero, Biblical refrences of a NT church using instruments. They were following the same examples that we are to follow.
Oh yeah, I wasn't talking to you.  oops![/quote]

I thought I was being direct, but maybe I wasn't being clear enough.  I'm going to step back and restate my question:

You have provided a long list of scriptures that say we should follow examples.  Assuming these scriptures mean what you say they mean (and without your referencing the context that is hard to say), these will only be relevant if accompanied by scriptural examples of exclusive acapella singing as part of a corporate New Testament worship service.  I am searching for these examples.  Please help me find them.

[charlie]

who said they were autonomous?

[Booty]

Other. Not an issue. We have neither an instrument nor a building in which to house an instrument, therefore why concern our selves with a trivial tradition of men when we have weightier matters before us?

If we ever do acquire an instrument, it will come from the same source as our building, the grace of Jesus Christ. If He sees fit to furnish us an instrument, we will use it. If not, we will not.

[kanham]

I am trying to follow some thoughts on this thread.

Was Paul wrong to oppose Peter to his face in Antioch when he wouldn’t eat with the Gentiles? Wasn’t circumcision being used as a test of fellowship by some?

If we truly believe that IM is a non issue why is it such an issue?

Why is it acceptable for IM to destroy unity with other brothers because it will hurt our unity with our sectarian brothers?

[spurly]

Things that make you go hummm:

Why is it always people who use intruments who are dividing the body of Christ, instead of people who choose not to use them.  It seems like many more Christians have come to the conclusion that instrumental music is not a sin.  It seems to me the ones causing division are the ones who are trying to force the majority who worship with instruments to toss them away.

Just a thought,

Kevin

[david johnson]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (spurly @ Jan. 27 2003,11:56)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Things that make you go hummm:

Why is it always people who use intruments who are dividing the body of Christ, instead of people who choose not to use them.  It seems like many more Christians have come to the conclusion that instrumental music is not a sin.  It seems to me the ones causing division are the ones who are trying to force the majority who worship with instruments to toss them away.

Just a thought,

Kevin[/quote]
kevin:

there are NOT many more im-ers than there are a cappellaists

dj

[david johnson]

kevin & shorty:

you are correct and i have miscounted, sorry.

225,000,000  orthodox
   2,000,000   coc
   1,000,000   primitive baptists

are all mostly a cappella.  they come nowhere near 1 billion catholics, but not all catholics endorse instruments.  even so,
the im numbers cannot be surmounted.

dj

No Brandt I don't know that we have clear guidelines for many, many parts of our worship. ;)

However, the parts we are given - we ought to stick to; like singing and praying and meeting to break bread. The examples we know of are the traditions and commands and doctrines that all those verses noted that we should follow.

Surely the congregations that were being written to knew what those commands and conducts and teachings were.

These letters were to be circulated to all churches for all time, including ours. So we need to try and find out what traditions and examples these groups were sticking to, to know what teachings came from the apostles.

A great deal is unsaid, like meeting places, or times to gather, etc.; but that which is said, we can know to be examples and commands and doctrines that we are to \"follow\" and \"keep\" and \"obey\". Does that makes sense?
   :noddingsmiley: ?

I repeat: Should we follow the examples of the apostles or not?

[Richard]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]  That was just a VERY SMALL sampling of the recorded use of instruments for praise and worship in the OT writings.  [/quote]
Here is another one I came across last Sunday.

20 The LORD will save me,
and we will sing with stringed instruments
all the days of our lives
in the temple of the LORD .

Isaiah 38:20

Richard

[Arkstfan]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Guest @ Jan. 28 2003,08:24)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Did God set up an \"approved pattern\" for worship and pass it on to us through the apostles, or did he give us lots of liberty?  Lots of liberty!
[/quote]
vs.

Philippians 3:17
Brethren, join in following my example, and observe those who walk according to the pattern you have in us.


2 Thessalonians 3:7
For you yourselves know how you ought to follow our example, because we did not act in an undisciplined manner among you,

3 John 1:9
I wrote something to the church; but Diotrephes, who loves to be first among them, does not accept what we say.
(this is a negative thing)


1 Timothy 4:6
In pointing out these things to the brethren, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, constantly nourished on the words of the faith and of the and doctrine which you have been following.

2 Timothy 3:10
Now you followed my teaching, conductpurpose, faith, patience, love, perseverance,
conduct is example in other translations


2 Thessalonians 3:14
If anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of that person and do not associate with him, so that he will be put to shame.

2 Thessalonians 3:9
not because we do not have the right to this, but in order to offer ourselves as a model for you, so that you would follow our example.

2 Thessalonians 3:4
We have confidence in the Lord concerning you, that you are doing and will continue to do what we command.

Acts 5:29
But Peter and the apostles answered, \"We must obey God rather than men.

Philippians 2:12
So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;

2 Thessalonians 3:6
Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from every brother who leads an unruly life and not according to the tradition which you received from us.

liberty? does that mean freedom from the pattern, command, example, conduct, tradition, purpose, doctrine, and obedience of the apostles/ Holy Spirit?
(please accept this list not as an attack, but for the sake of learned discussion)
if one lives \"according to the traditions received from [the apostles]\", can one do things outside that tradition and still be living according to that tradition?
if we \"continue to do what [the Holy Spirit] commands\" was using IM one of those commands?
how much do these verses apply to what we ought to be doing together?
   :D[/quote]
Philippians 3:17
This verse has nothing to do with worship. It is about struggling against the world pressing toward heaven.

2 Thessalonians 3:7
Not about worship but rather about working and supporting yourself.

3 John 1:9
Being critical of a church for failing to help those who are ministering.

1 Timothy 4:6
Certainly not worship related but more importantly it is in opposition to those who create extra rules.

2 Timothy 3:10
In context this not about worship but learning from Paul's faithfulness despite persecution.

2 Thessalonians 3:14
Continuation of the idea expressed above that Christians should not be idle. Not about worship.

2 Thessalonians 3:4
Again not about worship

Acts 5:29
This isn't even close to being about worship. This is Peter's answer when he is told that he isn't supposed to be preaching about Jesus.

Philippians 2:12
Nothing about a pattern of worship, instead about Christian living.

[Arkstfan]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Guest @ Jan. 28 2003,10:29)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Christian living is worship.
Do you suggest that we only obey the apostles' examples in certain areas, not all areas? That they refer only to those exact occurances with no wider application!?
 [/quote]
Ah, but then if instruments are not to be part of Christian living then we should be work against them in all settings.

You are the one who brought up the verses to support a pattern of worship.

Show me the verse where Christ or any apostle warned against instruments.

Now I can show you plenty about killing, about being prideful, about denying Christ, placing something or someone ahead of God, lying, stealing, cheating, being sexually immoral, hating, ridiculing, obeying the government, etc.

We know that some worship took place at the Temple, we know that instruments were often used there.

WHERE IS THE WARNING AGAINST THEM!!!!

This isn't like power point or bound hymnals that did not exist in 45 AD. Instruments existed, they had been used as part of Jewish worship for century upon century.

Did these men who so boldly proclaimed the truth at risk of death lack the boldness to say \"Stay away from instruments\"? The instruments were there speak up and tell us!

Yet they didn't.

[spurly]

The top vote getting option on this poll is interesting.  Allowed then and allowed now.  Your thoughts?