IM in the churches of Christ

[zoonance]

I repeat: Should we follow the examples of the apostles or not?

This is a basic question isn't it?  Examples of what? They also left their jobs to preach.  Probably a multitude of "apostolic examples" we could think of.  Do we follow Peter before or after he gave into the jewish pressures?  Should we spend more time as a literal prisoner for preaching?  If not why not?  etc etc etc A much better question is "Should we follow the teachings of the apostles or not?  That may or may not be the same. 

[DCR]

Are examples really as binding as commands?

It seems that we tried to make "C" and "E" equal in importance.  I'm not sure how valid that is.

[HRoberson]

Allowed in Scripture.

Whether it's appropriate or not depends on where you are.

[blituri]

Show me the verse where Christ or any apostle warned against instruments.

Now I can show you plenty about killing, about being prideful, about denying Christ, placing something or someone ahead of God, lying, stealing, cheating, being sexually immoral, hating, ridiculing, obeying the government, etc.

We know that some worship took place at the Temple, we know that instruments were often used there.

WHERE IS THE WARNING AGAINST THEM!!!!

This isn't like power point or bound hymnals that did not exist in 45 AD. Instruments existed, they had been used as part of Jewish worship for century upon century.

Did these men who so boldly proclaimed the truth at risk of death lack the boldness to say \"Stay away from instruments\"? The instruments were there speak up and tell us!

False: I am surprised that there are so many people doing what they know will sow discord that have NEVER caught on to to the STORY LINE of the Old or New Testament. On my worse days I would say that most preachers are afflicted with a terminal case of Biblical illiteracy.

Card Class slow ones of the slow group would wonder why the SERPENT in the garden of Edne is really defined as a "musical enchanter(ess) which any one famiiar with serpent worship where they worked out cube root problems on clay tablets would understand.  Why would it not count that Christ in the prophets saw the King of Tyre as a personification of the "singing and harp playing prostitute in the garden of Eden." Or why personified as the king of Babylon would go into "hell" with his harps and burried alive harpists (he has been excavated).  Or why no singer or player could come NEAR any holy thing without getting killed. Did they "just have a bad mental attitude."

You don't grasp the TWO THREADS which any reader would look for in any history.

The Spiritual people lived under the Covenant made by Christ to Abraham and restated by Paul in Galatians 3.
After the fall from that grace because of MUSICAL IDOLATRY at Mount Sinai God turned the Levi tribe over to WORSHIP THE STARRY HOST.

        Guess you missed Jacob's warning in Genesis 49 NOT to attend the assemblies of Levi.
        Guess they were not teaching Acts 7 when you "passed through" the universities.
              Otherwise, being alert and taking food you would ask? WHUT THAT? God abandoned them to
              worship the STARRY HOST?  WHUT THAT? Whut means worship of the starry host.
              Maybe I need to worry about that before spreading HATE against those who can read.

Christ ordained The Church of Christ in the wilderness: the word is Qahal (synagogue) or ekklesia in Stephen's warning which got Him killed by those who "thought" they were doing God's will AT THE TEMPLE.  Guess you missed "whut means Holy Convocation" each REST day (from rituals) to READ and REHEARSE the Word of god.

By the direct commands of Christ the Rock that HOLY convocation did not permit anything which was UNHOLY. Now, the Levites were an old Egyptian baby burning cult who "made the lambkins scream out a messate from Molech."  That ALARM which Judas tried on Jesus outlawed:

Vocal or instrumental rejoicing.

Now, if you grasp that the Church of Christ was NEVER more than a school of the Word of God with NO staff infection, even Simple Simons understand 'maybe I should not sing, clap, vibrate my body and play instruments while God is teaching us His Word." But, alas, didn't cover that at ACU etal.

The NATIONAL sacrificial system (not worship) was IMPOSED when the elders said that they wanted a SENIOR PASTOR instead of God so they could worship LIKE the nations: Egypt, Canaan, Assyria, Babylon with their own ziggurat at Temple called Sodom and the Mother of harlots.

God warned that the kings "given in His anger" would rob, steal and drive them into captivity and death. One of the most evil things God says that the king and his MINISTRY TEAM would take their girls for the guys and the young boys to make and blow "instruments of chariots" and be the first killed in battle.

No one but the Civil watchers and the Levites not on duty are the only ones who WORSHIPPED which always meant to FALL ON YOUR FACE in holy terror when all of that EXORCISM NOISE was to "make the lambs dumb before the slauthter." Yes, they musicallly mocked Jesus as prophesied and fulfilled.

The SYNAGOGUE always existed for the SPIRITUAL PEOPLE in every small town where the so colled "worship" was directly commanded by Christ and carried out:

Acts 15:21 For Moses
      of old time hath
      in every city
      them that preach him,
      being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

That ALWAYS happened while the Levites were PROFANING the Sabbath (making music) because they had already been abandoned by God.

Jesus EXAMPLED the synagogue by standing up to READ and then SITTING down decently to permit feedback.

The EKKLESIA used by Jesus met roughly every week for VERBAL DISCUSSION ONLY. The singers, players and other pollutants were consigned by Jesus to the MARKETPLACE where Jesus consigned the pipers, singers and dancers.

Paul used synagogue words and Simple Simon knew that by direct command and universal respect never had a praise service. Simple Simony could understand why.

Paul EXCLUDED the diversities in Romans 14 which would be any thing which arose out of the human mind and specificially in the marketplace where the sects defined by DIET would cross pathes.  In Romans 15 He outlawed SELF PLEASURE which any Greek novice could tell you outlaws all of the HYPOCRITIC artsand crafts or anything which creats "mental excitement."

Paul practiced that in histravels and DIRECTLY COMMANDED Timothy to;

Give attention to the public READING of the Word to Doctrain (contained in the read portion) and exhortation which means encouragement.

Silly Suzy was never so deprived that she or he would even THINK that SINGING externally as an ACT for the "school of the Bible." That was left for an Assyrian who tried out SINGING as an act to sing HIS OWN songs and so violate the direct commands. That ACT did not begin in some congregations until the year 373 and THAT came to split the east from the West churches. 

All historic scholars and all founders of denominations denounced any of the AROUSAL practices when they attended SOLELY to READ the Word, discuss it and do the "evangelism act" of the Lord's Supper.

I am quite sure that none of the troublers have ever dared to speak of any of the prophets writing by the Spirit of Christ who RADICALLY repudiate the whole sacrificlal system and the Civil-Military-Clergy sect as robbers and parasites,.

Most of the temple was in the hands of foreigners and there is no reference of musical sacrifices which has ceased shortly after the Return on the old grand scale.  They were called ROBBERS by Jesus.

No NON-Levite would have been INSIDE the walls if they maked an animal slaughter.
No Levite (singer, player) could come CLOSE to any holy thing.
No civillian had ever done worship with singing and instruments at the temple.

There were thousands of synagogues where they READ the Scripture and preachers like Jesus went OUT to preach.

No honorable Jew did not know that music was a mocking part of paganism always connected to sexuality and homosexuality.

Did you know that Jesus CAST OUT the musical minstrels with a word meaning LIKE DUNG.
The New Testament is filled with words directly condemning musical paganism

The word SPORT or PLAY probably didn't get covered at ACU or the preacherling-changelings would blush out loud when they said that the New Testament does not condemn.

Do you think that the Babylon mother of harlots (Reve 17) using lusted after fruits (Rev 18) as speakers, singers and instrument players John called SORCERERS has nothing to say.  Oh! Didn't cover that when I "passed through."

And yet I am certain that there is one poster who if you heaped ANTI instrument passages on him all day would say "well that's just your opinion" or "that doesn't count."

[zoonance]

Well that's just your opinion and that doesn't count.

[blituri]

Yes, my opinion and the Bible and all historic scholarship agrees.  For instance, David's PRAISE word vizualized in his naked, musical dance with the camp-following girls, is an example what people NATURALLY did who were "turned over to worship the starry host."  That's where your preacher / scholar cannot connect Stephen's life-threatening preaching from the PROPHETS and therefore the CONTRARY view of Christ, get their "God commanded instrumental praise and we must NOT disobey" authority to lie, cheat and steal the church houses of widows: the scribes and pharises as hypocrites (preachers, singers, instrument players" were petty criminals compared to them.

The praise word halal reall means to make yourself vile and all of the performande was "performing the role of women." it was used to threaten sodomy and death to any one who did not turn coward.  Is there a parable there.

It is the ROOT meaning of LUCIFER meaning to make a Light or Sound show to steal people's property.

It is identical to another word. Chalal .  This word links to the END TIME Babylon mother of harlots who uses the lusted after fruits (same term Amos used) who used speakers, singers and instrument players as sorcerers.  John says that these are the SAME ones who HAD deceived the whole world and brought on destruction.

The Mark of the Beast has this connection:

Thereuo motions of the hands of dying persons, decoy, chase afer sexually, to be preyed upon, to be taken captive, hunt after pleasure. Pimplemi of an orator : fill full, satisfy, glut, filled up with wine,

Pindar, Nemean 11 [1] Daughter of Rhea [Eve, Zoe mother of the gods] , you who have received the town hall under your protection, Hestia, sister of Zeus the highest and of Hera who shares his throne, welcome Aristagoras to your dwelling, and welcome to a place near your splendid scepter his companions, [5] who, in honoring you, guard Tenedos and keep her on a straight course; [6] often they worship you, first of the gods, with libations, and often with the savor of burnt sacrifice. Lyres and songs peal among them, and Themis, who belongs to Zeus the god of hospitality, is honored with everlasting feasts...  the dark fields do not give fruit continuously, [40] nor are trees accustomed to bear an equal wealth of fragrant flowers in every circling year, but in alternation. And thus the race of mortal men is led [43] by Fate. But no clear sign comes to mortals from Zeus. Nevertheless we embark on bold endeavors, [45] longing for many deeds, for our limbs are bound by shameless hope, while the streams of foresight lie far away. But we must hunt for due measure in our love of gain. The madness of unattainable desires is too sharp.

Thêrion III. as a term of reproach, beast, creature,  hê mousikê aei tikainon thêrion tiktei

     Which means A NEW STYLE OF SONG, MUSIC OR DRAMA

When Apollo, the Having-fallen star unleashed the LOCUSTS or MUSES, they immediately began sowing discord and breaking up churches of all faiths. Because the muses were adulterers and exercised the AUTHENTIA authority Paul warned about, their "performance" is both erotic and murderous. They bring on WRATH which means an ORGY.

This is a MARK of the beast.

       Sêmeion 2. sign from the gods, omen Kathair-eô to s. to take it down,
       strike the flag,
            as a sign of dissolving an assembly, And.1.36; to tês ekklêsias,
       3. of sorcerers, bring down from the sky, selênên [sign in the moon].  *
       V. less freq. like the simple [heresy] hairein, take and carry off

You will notice that when the lucusts or "musical worship teams" TAKE AND CARRY OFF the whole church other than the few ELECT, they also get the vision or hear voices to STRIKE THE FLAG and shut down the ekklesia as a school of the Bible (only) and REMOVE the name of CHRIST from their public confession.

They DISSOLVE the ekklesia and CONVERT it into a synagogue of Satan: a house of merchandise. This is he same HERESY connected to the SELF-pleasing terms used by Paul in Romans 15.

ZOE (Lucifer) and some of the ACU misleaders are CALLING DOWN GOD'S HOLY FIRE! What is the MARK of the BEASTS calling down the FIRES?

Incentor , o-ris, m. [id.] , one who sets the tune or begins to sing, a precentor, singer I. Lit.: carminis, Paul. Nol. Carm. 15, 32 : [1] incentore [2] canam [3] Phoebo  [Abaddon] [4] Musisque [5] magistris,

SIGN: the Magistris A superior, director or conductor. The MARK of Minerva Meerva (Etruscan, Menfra). One of the great Roman divinities, the goddess of wisdom; identified with the Greek Athené She was worshipped as the patroness of all the arts and trades, and at her festival she was particularly invoked by all who desired to distinguish themselves in any art or craft, such as painting, poetry, further believed to be the inventor of musical instruments, especially wind instruments, the use of which was very important in religious worship, and which were accordingly subjected to a sort of purification every year on the last day of the festival of Minerva.
 
II. Trop., an [A] inciter, exciter: [A1] igneus [C] turbarum, Amm. 15, 1, 2 : civilis belli, Oros. 5, 19 : rebellionis [renewal of war] totius, id. 6, 11 . Flamen Hislop

Incensor I. one who kindles or sets fire to, II. Trop., an inciter, instigator: turbarum,

[2] Căno I. Neutr., to utter melodious notes, to sing, sound, play.  2. Of the faulty delivery of an orator, to speak in a sing-song tone: inclinată ululantique voce more Asiatico canere,  once canituri,Vulg. Apoc. 8, 13 )

PROMOTING DAVID'S PRAISE WORD--HALAL--HAS THE SAME MARK AS CHALAL.

After Enosh when men began to CALL themselves god:

The traditional Jewish interpretation of this verse implies that it marked the beginning of idolatry, i.e. that men starting dubbing "Lord" things that were mere creatures. This is because the previous generations, notably Adam, had already "begun calling upon the name of the Lord", which forces us to interpret הוחל huchal not as "began" but as the homonym "profanated". In this light, Enosh suggests the notion of a humanity (Enoshut) thinking of itself as an absolute rather than in relation to God (Enosh vs. Adam). Wikipedia

Adam Clark:
Verse 26. Then began men to call upon the name of the Lord.] The marginal reading is, Then began men to call themselves by the name of the Lord; which words are supposed to signify that in the time of Enos
        the true followers of God began to distinguish themselves,
        and to be distinguished by others, by the appellation of sons of God;
        those of the other branch of Adam's family, among whom the Divine worship was not observed, being distinguished by the name, children of men. It must not be dissembled that many eminent men have contended that ljwh huchal, which we translate began, should be rendered began profanely, or then profanation began, and from this time they date the origin of idolatry. Most of the Jewish doctors were of this opinion, and Maimonides has discussed it at some length in his Treatise on Idolatry; as this piece is curious, and gives the most probable account of the origin and progress of idolatry, I shall insert it here.

"In the days of Enos the sons of Adam erred with great error, and the counsel of the wise men of that age became brutish, and Enos himself was (one) of them that erred; and their error was this: they said, Forasmuch as God hath created these stars and spheres to govern the world, and set them on high, and imparted honour unto them, and they are ministers that minister before him; it is meet that men should laud, and glorify, and give them honour. For this is the will of God, that we magnify and honour whomsoever he magnifieth and honoureth; even as a king would have them honoured that stand before him, and this is the honour of the king himself. When this thing was come up into their hearts they began to build temples unto the stars, and to offer sacrifice unto them, and to laud and glorify them with words, and to worship before them, that they might in their evil opinion obtain favour of the Creator; and this was the root of idolatry, &c.

That's NOT just my opinion: that is the well defined MARK OF THE BEAST (the Nachash or Musical Enchanter and not a snake) in the garden of Eden who is called the "singing and harp playing prostitute." It is the MARK OF THE BEAST for the END times as clearly defined by John.  All you have to do is READ that which has written: church history proves that all religious error spewed out of pulpits and schools begun by honest believers.

[farouk]

 

[Jaime]

Don't worry Farouk, we're all kinda  about Blituri. 

[blituri]

The false teachers say and YOU probably believe them when they say that NONE of the church fathers had anything negative to say about "instrumental music in worship."  Well, one of the reasons is that THERE WAS no instrumental noise in the churches.  They go on to claim that Clement said that  "if you want to play the lyre there is no blame." What they don't tell you is that Clement was speaking of what we would call "pot lucks" and even then he allegorizes the lyre.

In the olden days a Bible scholar was a student of the Bible! That's so radically strange these days that it drives people into hand clapping when they hear the UNIVERSAL understanding of these men who knew the languages, knew the PAGANISM that Moses and the prophets wrote against and understood that common decency does not WAGE people to perform what is always called WITCHCRAFT or SORCERY. They find it totally outrageous that anyone would believe John in Revelation when he connects the HYPOCRITIC arts to gender-bents and the Babylon Mother of harlots.  Now, I would never accuse anyone but we HISTORY LITERATE people wonder (not) why so many people want musical performers to get enraptured over: even to the extent of DRIVING OUT the owners from their "synagogue."

Here's another TOKEN bit from all of the 100 PERCENT of all recorded history explaining the Bible which is not a required book for theologians. Whatever you believe about these who were the only era of true scholarship, you will be EXCITED to learn some Bible TIME LINE and that your hireling-preacherling musical people manage to take people captive when they have O PERCENT of information in FAVOR and O PERCENT which does not MARK them as the BEASTS which means A MASSED MULTITUDE.

Recognitions of Clement Chapter XIII.-Origin of Idolatry.

http://www.piney.com/FathRecClemBIV.html#P2218_636510

"But when all these things were done, men turned again to impiety; and on this account a law was given by God to instruct them in the manner of living.

But in process of time, the worship of God and righteousness were corrupted by the unbelieving and the wicked, as we shall show more fully by and by.

Moreover, perverse and erratic religions were introduced, to which the greater part of men gave themselves up,
by occasion of holidays and solemnities, instituting drinkings and banquets,
following pipes, and flutes, and harps, and diverse kinds of musical instruments,
and indulging themselves in all kinds of drunkenness and luxury.

Hence every kind of error took rise; hence they invented groves and altars, fillets and victims, and after drunkenness they were agitated as if with mad emotions.

By this means power was given to the demons to enter into minds of this sort, so that they seemed to lead insane dances and to rave like Bacchanalians; hence were invented the gnashing of teeth, and bellowing from the depth of their bowels; hence a terrible countenance and a fierce aspect in men, so that he whom drunkenness had subverted and a demon had instigated, was believed by the deceived and the erring to be filled with the Deity.

They MISSED the MUSICAL IDOLALTRY at Mount Sinai and Romans 1 which defines this same account which is well documented in the Bible. Bible? You know: that thingy the preacher and musicators had CHAINED to the pulpit this morning.  Paul said in effect that the Corinthians and other "fools love to be fooled." That MAY in fact keep them in captivity to prevent them from doing WORSE spiritual terrorism

Chapter VII.-Sacrificial Orgies. The wrath Paul prevented with men lifting holy palms and the women not waving unholy arms.

"But they did not cease to worship images, by reason of the evil intelligence of the magicians, who found excuses for them,

    which had power to constrain them to the foolish worship

For, establishing this things by magical ceremonies, they assigned them feasts from sacrifices, libations, flutes, and shoutings,
        by means ofj which senseless men, being deceived, and their kingdom being taken from them,
        yet did not desist from the worship that they had taken up with.

To such an extent did they prefer error, on account of its pleasantness, before truth.
        They also howl after their sacrificial surfeit, their soul from the depth, as it were by dreams,
        forewarning them of the punishment that is to befall such deeds of theirs.

I think that being part of the MINORITY of two or three people is the RIGHT side of the issue.

When Paul said "don't get METHUO on wine" the Greek literature defines that as "getting FLUTED down with wine." This word can mean intoxicated with ignorance or intoxicated with passion and pride.  The literature is 100% in agreement that "spiritual intoxication" through the use of music was the PAGAN THING to do.

BEASTS are the "massed multitudes" but to find Jesus you have to go OUTSIDE that group and suffer reproaches with Him. Not too bad since the gospel means REST from the "spiritual anxiety created by religious rituals."  And that is the ONLY place Jesus will be this day teaching the twos and threes DEMANDING rest from whatever oozes out of their minds.

[farouk]

 

Don't worry Farouk, we're all kinda  about Blituri. 

[zoonance]

Well that's just your opinion and that doesn't count.

Quote from the previous post:  And yet I am certain that there is one poster who if you heaped ANTI instrument passages on him all day would say "well that's just your opinion" or "that doesn't count."


I guess they missed your cue.  I don't know who you had in mind but I obliged anyway.