Instrumental Music in Worship

[Bon Voyage]

Is it no longer an issue with more "progressive" CofC's adding services with instrumental music?

[da525382]

You're a brave soul.

[DCR]

Is it no longer an issue with more "progressive" CofC's adding services with instrumental music?

It would certainly be an "issue"... how big of an issue depends on how folks react to it.

(I wonder how long we can keep this thread going before we get "obliturized" with Pineyisms.  )

[HRoberson]

Is it no longer an issue with more "progressive" CofC's adding services with instrumental music?

I agree with DCR.

How much of an issue depends on the congregation, what they're doing other than fiddling with worship styles, and how the idea is couched. Most "progressive" churches already consider IM a non-issue except with respect to congregational peace. There really is no compelling reason to poke your members in the eye with a sharp stick with no warning.

[stevehut]

I find it amazing what petty issues people will use to one-up each other... 

[zoonance]

I find it amazing what petty issues people will use to one-up each other... 

Oh yea, I find it unscriptureal that your little icon has no mouth but has to use a sign to ask for help because when scripture authorizes ASKING for help, it infers a voice ...

[PEGGY JOYCE]

zoonance,   that is hilarious!   

[sanctusivo]

Is it no longer an issue with more "progressive" CofC's adding services with instrumental music?

I would be rather surprised if adding IM actually improves congregational singing.

[Imabear]

My daughter goes to a CoC school.  Over the past year or so (on occasion) one of the students will bring a guitar into chapel to accompany the singing.   I believe this is only happening at the secondary school where most of the teachers and even the principal are quite young and a somewhat progressive.  This past spring they used a piano to accompany the chorus concert.  I was a bit surprised.  :)  

[I spoke with my daughter today and found that what I typed above was not accurate.  IM has NOT been used in chapel, but it has been used during spiritual emphasis days, which are held at another site.]

I really don't think they will introduce IM in the Sunday morning service any time soon.  I get the impression that a few people might have to go to their eternal reward before that would happen.  (I know... I'm bad.  But how does one go about saying that nicely?)  

Funny story: About 7 or 8 years ago, before I knew anything about the CoC and IM, there was a family at my church that had decided to get into a bit of "Christian children's ministry/entertainment".  I recommended them to the school for a chapel service.  One thing they did was put Bible verses to up-beat recorded music, and taught these to the kids.  They also used skits and comedy to teach a Bible lesson.  It's a long story, but let's say the staff at the school were a little shocked.  My friends were not invited back there again!  I didn't have a full comprehension about what happened that morning and how controversial it was until years later.   :)

[Imabear]

Is it no longer an issue with more "progressive" CofC's adding services with instrumental music?

I would be rather surprised if adding IM actually improves congregational singing.

When your congregation sings, Who is your audience?

[sanctusivo]

Is it no longer an issue with more "progressive" CofC's adding services with instrumental music?

I would be rather surprised if adding IM actually improves congregational singing.

When your congregation sings, Who is your audience?

Audience not involved. Edification is the purpose. Col 3:16; Eph. 5:19.

[Mere Nick]

I agree with sanctusivo. 

I have to take a Goody's powder and lie down for a while. 

[Imabear]

Is it no longer an issue with more "progressive" CofC's adding services with instrumental music?

I would be rather surprised if adding IM actually improves congregational singing.

When your congregation sings, Who is your audience?

Audience not involved. Edification is the purpose. Col 3:16; Eph. 5:19.

Yes... But I believe God "smiles" when he hears the praises of His people.  With or without instruments.

[HRoberson]

Is it no longer an issue with more "progressive" CofC's adding services with instrumental music?

I would be rather surprised if adding IM actually improves congregational singing.

When your congregation sings, Who is your audience?

Depends on the song.

If it's praise, God is the primary target.

If it's edification, other believers are the target.

If it's evangelistic, non-believers are the target.

[sanctusivo]

I agree with sanctusivo. 

I have to take a Goody's powder and lie down for a while. 

I keep Goody's in the car (the blister pack version; costs about a buck I think): lots of extra nutritious caffeine brain food.

[sanctusivo]

Is it no longer an issue with more "progressive" CofC's adding services with instrumental music?

I would be rather surprised if adding IM actually improves congregational singing.

When your congregation sings, Who is your audience?

Audience not involved. Edification is the purpose. Col 3:16; Eph. 5:19.

Yes... But I believe God "smiles" when he hears the praises of His people.  With or without instruments.

Perhaps, but this I know:
(1) Good congregational singing is a delight. Many midsized and large congregations in the CoC core are good at this. Really good.
(2) Mediocre congregational singing sounds like the Elysian Fields Church of Christ: one can hear the melody and remember what singing #(1) was like.
(3) Really bad congregational singing sounds like the Tartarus Church of Christ: the dreary atonal moans might bring the reprobate to repentance.  Then again, maybe not.

[wave runner]

With regard to whether the addition of instruments will increase the level of singing, I can speak about only one congregation.  That is Oak Hills in San Antonio.

The participation in the song service has decreased dramatically in the instrumental services.  It really is rather sad to remember what the singing used to be like and now to just see everyone standing around listening to the band.  It is just astounding and sad to watch this happen.

[Mere Nick]

I'm not surprised, wave.  We've visited a certain congregation a couple of times in Nashville that has a praise team.  Even there, it appears that most of the folks aren't singing with them.  I suspect it is because the amplified singing of the praise team drowns everyone else out and folks are wondering why even bother.  In addition, it seems many of the praise songs are very repetitive but not very instructive.  My guess would be a band would only be worse.

[Mere Nick]

I agree with sanctusivo. 

I have to take a Goody's powder and lie down for a while. 

I keep Goody's in the car (the blister pack version; costs about a buck I think): lots of extra nutritious caffeine brain food.

I keep Goody's Orange both here at the house and at the office.  Tastes and works so good you'll start looking forward to headaches.

[sanctusivo]

I'm not surprised, wave.  We've visited a certain congregation a couple of times in Nashville that has a praise team.  Even there, it appears that most of the folks aren't singing with them.  I suspect it is because the amplified singing of the praise team drowns everyone else out and folks are wondering why even bother.  In addition, it seems many of the praise songs are very repetitive but not very instructive.  My guess would be a band would only be worse.

That's been my experience, too.  Trying to add IM to improve congregational singing is like cutting off one's leg to cure a limp.

[Mere Nick]

Mmm hmm.

[DCR]

I really don't think they will introduce IM in the Sunday morning service any time soon.  

Who is "they"?  Some CofCs already have added instrumental services on Sunday morning (in addition to the existing non-instrumental services in some cases).  Many CofCs won't do this any time soon.  But, it's impossible to speak of the CofC as a single collective because of variations in congregational autonomy and all.

[zoonance]

Is it no longer an issue with more "progressive" CofC's adding services with instrumental music?

I would be rather surprised if adding IM actually improves congregational singing.

When your congregation sings, Who is your audience?

Depends on the song.

If it's praise, God is the primary target.

If it's edification, other believers are the target.

If it's evangelistic, non-believers are the target.

Fabulous perspective!

[zoonance]

With regard to whether the addition of instruments will increase the level of singing, I can speak about only one congregation.  That is Oak Hills in San Antonio.

The participation in the song service has decreased dramatically in the instrumental services.  It really is rather sad to remember what the singing used to be like and now to just see everyone standing around listening to the band.  It is just astounding and sad to watch this happen.

This makes sense.  Adding IM in order to improve singing is one thing.  Adding IM in order to prove to _____ that we don't think it is wrong/sin is another.  Adding IM in order to erase a boundary between believers is another.  Adding IM because a significant number of members are musicians who play all week long for their secular audiences and deeply sense an intense desire for an avenue to incorporate their gifted talents in praise is another.  Adding IM in order to reach those who a) have nearly had an ipod surgically implanted into their heads or b) to reach those who have never in their wildest imaginations ever considered this an issue in believing in Jesus.   etc etc etc

Course, One could just as easily say the same thing with "Removing/substituting IM with acapella only in order to .....

[sopranette]

With regard to whether the addition of instruments will increase the level of singing, I can speak about only one congregation.  That is Oak Hills in San Antonio.

The participation in the song service has decreased dramatically in the instrumental services.  It really is rather sad to remember what the singing used to be like and now to just see everyone standing around listening to the band.  It is just astounding and sad to watch this happen.

I can totally agree.  The church I grew up in only had a children's choir.  Everybody sang. Now it seems that, not only are people forgetting songs, they are getting lazier, too.  Adding instruments, and putting so much focus on our adult choir makes them even more unlikely to step out of their comfort zone.

love,

Sopranette

[marc]

With regard to whether the addition of instruments will increase the level of singing, I can speak about only one congregation.  That is Oak Hills in San Antonio.

The participation in the song service has decreased dramatically in the instrumental services.  It really is rather sad to remember what the singing used to be like and now to just see everyone standing around listening to the band.  It is just astounding and sad to watch this happen.

You need to visit our congregation so you can be reminded that a capella singing doesn't have to be good.

Our songleader is gravely ill in the hospital.  The person leading most of the singing now is a bass, and most of can't get that low.  My voice is pretty well suited for songleading, but unfortunately I damaged it a couple of years ago and can't sustain it for very long.  The best hope may be a couple of 15-year-old kids who just need more confidence and experience.

[DCR]

Just a thought... I wonder how many churches in the history of Christianity ever stopped using IM?

It seems that those of us who don't use IM can trace back a continuous unbroken history, for the most part, to the very beginning of churches not using instruments.  But, it seems that once IM was introduced, it was there to stay in any given church's history.  Specifically, I don't know of any churches that formerly used IM who decided to stop using it for one reason or another.

Churches become instrumental.  But, do churches ever become non-instrumental?

I'm not sure it's an important question... just something to ponder.

[zoonance]

Just a thought... I wonder how many churches in the history of Christianity ever stopped using IM?

It seems that those of us who don't use IM can trace back a continuous unbroken history, for the most part, to the very beginning of churches not using instruments.  But, it seems that once IM was introduced, it was there to stay in any given church's history.  Specifically, I don't know of any churches that formerly used IM who decided to stop using it for one reason or another.

Churches become instrumental.  But, do churches ever become non-instrumental?

I'm not sure it's an important question... just something to ponder.

Did the "restoration churches" give up the use of IM early as part of the plea for unity or did it become an issue later on?  (or, in other words, were they using or not using IM in the churches in the first place that came together in the unifying movement?)   Was it a chicken or an egg?

[DCR]

Did the "restoration churches" give up the use of IM early as part of the plea for unity or did it become an issue later on?  (or, in other words, were they using or not using IM in the churches in the first place that came together in the unifying movement?)   Was it a chicken or an egg?

My understanding... it became an issue later on because no one was using IM at the beginning of the movement... and neither was IM even being used in the various Baptist and Presbyterian churches (from which most of the RM'ers came) during that time period either.

It was a non-issue because no one was using instruments in those days.  The introduction of IM in churches seemed to begin in the mid and late 1800s. 

[zoonance]

Did the "restoration churches" give up the use of IM early as part of the plea for unity or did it become an issue later on?  (or, in other words, were they using or not using IM in the churches in the first place that came together in the unifying movement?)   Was it a chicken or an egg?

My understanding... it became an issue later on because no one was using IM at the beginning of the movement... and neither was IM even being used in the various Baptist and Presbyterian churches (from which most of the RM'ers came) during that time period either.

It was a non-issue because no one was using instruments in those days.  The introduction of IM in churches seemed to begin in the mid and late 1800s. 

I thought so.  (I honestly wonder if or how our history would have been different if those 'starters' had in fact used IM in their worship.  Would they have figured out that they really shouldn't have been?)     Why didn't they use IM?

[Imabear]

I really don't think they will introduce IM in the Sunday morning service any time soon.  

Who is "they"?  Some CofCs already have added instrumental services on Sunday morning (in addition to the existing non-instrumental services in some cases).  Many CofCs won't do this any time soon.  But, it's impossible to speak of the CofC as a single collective because of variations in congregational autonomy and all.

Sorry, "they" is the congregation that the school is affiliated with. 

You need to visit our congregation so you can be reminded that a capella singing doesn't have to be good.

Our songleader is gravely ill in the hospital.  The person leading most of the singing now is a bass, and most of can't get that low.  My voice is pretty well suited for songleading, but unfortunately I damaged it a couple of years ago and can't sustain it for very long.  The best hope may be a couple of 15-year-old kids who just need more confidence and experience.

  The worship team leader, who left our congregation a few years back, was always inviting kids to get up front, to play their instruments and/or sing.  He asked my daughter to play her guitar on a couple of occasions starting when she was about 13.  She was nervous.  He said she could play "unplugged" the first few times.  Since then she has been up there once a month.  Usually when she plays, she doesn't have a mike, because we have plenty of singers.  I think it's a good way to get kids comfortable with being up front.

[zoonance]

Did the "restoration churches" give up the use of IM early as part of the plea for unity or did it become an issue later on?  (or, in other words, were they using or not using IM in the churches in the first place that came together in the unifying movement?)   Was it a chicken or an egg?

My understanding... it became an issue later on because no one was using IM at the beginning of the movement... and neither was IM even being used in the various Baptist and Presbyterian churches (from which most of the RM'ers came) during that time period either.

It was a non-issue because no one was using instruments in those days.  The introduction of IM in churches seemed to begin in the mid and late 1800s. 

I thought so.  (I honestly wonder if or how our history would have been different if those 'starters' had in fact used IM in their worship.  Would they have figured out that they really shouldn't have been?)     Why didn't they use IM?

what about elders annointing with oil?  was it a common practice that was dropped or nobody (mainstreamish) was doing it so it wasn't added?   (seems close to a direct command)

What about foot washing before communion?  (seems to qualify as an example)

Sabboth - saturday or sunday or "neither"? first day is by inference mostly, little evidence of saturday sabboth after jerusalem...


I am not interested in throwing Stones at Cambell etc...   It only takes a casual view of the Forum to see that our backgrounds have clearly influenced our staunch positions and that any of the Posters, when 'pushed up against a wall' in defense to the death of just about any doctrinal stand reveals the truth that the particular stand will clash with other scriptures that are labeled as either 1) difficult 2) mistranslated 3) misinterpreted 4) the old "out of context" play 5) etc 6) etc 7 etc

It is fascinating to navigate through the thought processes and the decisions of our forefathers.

[zoonance]

Is it no longer an issue with more "progressive" CofC's adding services with instrumental music?

I would be rather surprised if adding IM actually improves congregational singing.

When your congregation sings, Who is your audience?

Depends on the song.

If it's praise, God is the primary target.

If it's edification, other believers are the target.

If it's evangelistic, non-believers are the target.

Fabulous perspective!

In fact, only one of these perspectives would even involve DIRECTLY the use of IM in worship!  Perhaps we could use IM when edifying or evangelizing but not when worshipping God?    

[Jon-Marc]

God has no problem with musical instruments being used to worship and praise Him--evidenced by the mention of instruments in the Psalms. Why should Christians have a problem with them?

[marc]

God has no problem with musical instruments being used to worship and praise Him--evidenced by the mention of instruments in the Psalms. Why should Christians have a problem with them?

That's Old Testament.  Do you want to start making animal sacrifices too?







(I apologize.  As mentioned elsewhere, I heard this line used recently regarding clapping in worship.)