Instrumental Music in Worship

[zoonance]

Clapping in worship?  The day is coming in the liberal church that getting clap in worship will be the issue.

[Mere Nick]

There's lots of folks out there who don't use IM, btw, folks.  I imagine most all of you know this, but I thought I'd throw it in there, like the second potato in some stone soup.

Most all the Orthodox don't use it and the Mennonites don't.  Some of us were at a campground a few years back and some Mennonites there invited us to the Sunday service.  I hauled off and went.  Afterwards it seems they got really mad when we were chating afterwards and I told them I was all for acapella but, in short, wasn't willing to start chucking folks into the gaping maw.

[DCR]

I was recently reading about Amish and Mennonites, and it does seem that there are different "groupings" (started to say "factions," but that sounds uglier than I really mean it) among them.  There are "old order" Amish... who are the horse and buggy types.  Then, there's some more "liberal" types that aren't that extreme.  It appears that the Mennonites broke with the Amish at some point (the Mennonites generally not being as opposed to "modern ways," so to speak).  And, there's a spectrum in the Mennonites... I imagine conservative to progressive.  Maybe some are more anti-IM than others.  I think some of the most conservative Mennonites in some communities are a little like the Amish, in terms of their choice of dress, etc. 

They're all descended from the Anabaptist movement in Europe.  They're apparently all but extinct in Europe now though and only live in communities in America.

[HRoberson]

They (Mennonites and Amish) split, I think, over foot washing. The exact point of disagreement was whether foot washing was required during their meetings.

I'm sure there were other reasons - there always is - but it seems I remember that from somewhere.

[Imabear]

We're getting off topic here, but both Mennonites and Amish wash feet at communion services.  Some of the liberal Mennonites have dropped the practice.  My congregation had a foot washing service this past April but it's not something we do regularly.  The Amish left the Mennonites because the Mennonites were becoming too worldly.
 
I wasn't raised Mennonite.  The first Mennonite congregation I attended was "plain"  the women wore cape dresses and head coverings.  The men wore what they called plain coats.  (No lapels)  They did not wear jewelry, not even wedding bands.  They used a hymnal with shaped notes.  (I had never seen anything like that before.)  That was a LONG time ago, when I was in my early 20's and now I'm nearing 50, They had a piano, but if I remember correctly sang a capella frequently.  (Even though I did not dress like them, I was always made to feel welcome.  They were among the nicest, friendliest people I had ever met in my life.) 
My husband and I moved and started attending a church where there was a variety of styles of dress.  They most definitely had a piano there. I became good friends with the pianist.  I went to a class to learn about shaped note singing, but am musically challenged and just didn't get it.  :)  There were some issues there, the church split over a preacher... and we felt the need to move on.

Now I'm at a more liberal church, with a full worship team.  Yep it's still Mennonite, but it doesn't say that on the sign.
We are trying to make to more open to people in the community.  Some how the word Mennonite has so many stereotypes associated with it... :)

There is a horse and buggy Mennonite church a couple of miles from my church.  I bet they don't have IM.  Sometime maybe I'll have to visit, It would be interesting, but where to park the car?

[Dennis]

There is a fairly large Mennonite community here.  My discussions with friends who are Mennonite confirms what w8ting says above.  The groups range from extremely conservative [horse and buggy users] to those who you might have a hard time distinguishing from other protestant groups.  As I have said before, I have a great deal of respect for the Menonites I have known.

[Jon-Marc]

That's Old Testament.  Do you want to start making animal sacrifices too?

OK, Show me NT scripture that forbids the use of musical instruments in worshiping God, and I will look for a church that doesn't use them. Does God change? He was OK with musical instruments while worshiping Him in the OT days, but now He is NOT OK with it? If He changes on one thing, how can we trust Him not to change on other things? Of course, we know that He is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

Yes, He has changed the way He deals with people since the death and resurrection of a Saviour, and the writing of His word that we can read. However, salvation has always been by God's grace through faith even in the OT days. Those with faith pleased Him, and those without didn't; it's still that way.

[marc]

That's Old Testament.  Do you want to start making animal sacrifices too?

OK, Show me NT scripture that forbids the use of musical instruments in worshiping God, and I will look for a church that doesn't use them. Does God change? He was OK with musical instruments while worshiping Him in the OT days, but now He is NOT OK with it? If He changes on one thing, how can we trust Him not to change on other things? Of course, we know that He is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

Yes, He has changed the way He deals with people since the death and resurrection of a Saviour, and the writing of His word that we can read. However, salvation has always been by God's grace through faith even in the OT days. Those with faith pleased Him, and those without didn't; it's still that way.

Show me the NT verse that forbids human sacrifice in worship first.  It ain't there.  So if you use IM, you might as well offer human sacrifices.

[Bon Voyage]

That's Old Testament.  Do you want to start making animal sacrifices too?

OK, Show me NT scripture that forbids the use of musical instruments in worshiping God, and I will look for a church that doesn't use them. Does God change? He was OK with musical instruments while worshiping Him in the OT days, but now He is NOT OK with it? If He changes on one thing, how can we trust Him not to change on other things? Of course, we know that He is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

Yes, He has changed the way He deals with people since the death and resurrection of a Saviour, and the writing of His word that we can read. However, salvation has always been by God's grace through faith even in the OT days. Those with faith pleased Him, and those without didn't; it's still that way.

Show me the NT verse that forbids human sacrifice in worship first.  It ain't there.  So if you use IM, you might as well offer human sacrifices.

Four part harmony is not mentioned in the bible.  It is an addition.  Remember Nadab and Abihu.  A capella is a catholic addition.  Your worship is unauthorized.

[marc]

So, what type of altar are you going to use for your human sacrifices?  I'd do it outside because of the fire hazard and all.

[Bon Voyage]

So, what type of altar are you going to use for your human sacrifices?  I'd do it outside because of the fire hazard and all.

I am gonna chant a bit, to help learn the scriptures.  That is what we do in the School of the Bible.

[notofmyown]

Did the "restoration churches" give up the use of IM early as part of the plea for unity or did it become an issue later on?  (or, in other words, were they using or not using IM in the churches in the first place that came together in the unifying movement?)   Was it a chicken or an egg?

My understanding... it became an issue later on because no one was using IM at the beginning of the movement... and neither was IM even being used in the various Baptist and Presbyterian churches (from which most of the RM'ers came) during that time period either.

It was a non-issue because no one was using instruments in those days.  The introduction of IM in churches seemed to begin in the mid and late 1800s. 

I thought so.  (I honestly wonder if or how our history would have been different if those 'starters' had in fact used IM in their worship.  Would they have figured out that they really shouldn't have been?)     Why didn't they use IM?

You don't need to wonder.....it is my understanding that IM is used and is no big deal within the Australian Churches of Christ......at least that is what someone told me who said he was in the Church there.

[notofmyown]

That's Old Testament.  Do you want to start making animal sacrifices too?

Good point in fact an elder friend of mine told me he was put in his place by a greek or maybe russian orthodox because he told the man he used four part harmony and the guy said the only right way was mono.

OK, Show me NT scripture that forbids the use of musical instruments in worshiping God, and I will look for a church that doesn't use them. Does God change? He was OK with musical instruments while worshiping Him in the OT days, but now He is NOT OK with it? If He changes on one thing, how can we trust Him not to change on other things? Of course, we know that He is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

Yes, He has changed the way He deals with people since the death and resurrection of a Saviour, and the writing of His word that we can read. However, salvation has always been by God's grace through faith even in the OT days. Those with faith pleased Him, and those without didn't; it's still that way.

Show me the NT verse that forbids human sacrifice in worship first.  It ain't there.  So if you use IM, you might as well offer human sacrifices.

Four part harmony is not mentioned in the bible.  It is an addition.  Remember Nadab and Abihu.  A capella is a catholic addition.  Your worship is unauthorized.

[DCR]

You don't need to wonder.....it is my understanding that IM is used and is no big deal within the Australian Churches of Christ......at least that is what someone told me who said he was in the Church there.

I believe the Australian Churches of Christ also came out of the RM... so their history is the same.  I think they're essentially ICC/CofC (instrumental)... though they apparently have a bit more extra-congregational structure than the independent CCs.  They may be somewhere between ICC and DoC.

At the same time, there are some non-IM CofCs in Australia as well... which were started from mission efforts from the States by non-IM CofC missionaries.  But, then again, the "CofCs (AU)" you are referring to were started by earlier American missions.  It's just that those missions where by folks who were more progressive than the CofCs back in the States who remained non-IM.

At the end of the day, though, they are just another branch of the overall movement that traces back to early 19th Century America, when IM wasn't used by anyone.  So, zoonance's question is still the same.

[marc]

Yep.  In the early eighties I worked on an AIM team (via Sunset in Lubbock) with one of the Churches of Christ planted by later Americans, and there's a network there that's pretty much like the one here.  They even have (or at least had) their own school of preaching (MacQuarie) in Sydney. Ed Wharton from Sunset came over to work with them a couple of times when I was there, and Jim McGuiggan, who was still at Sunset then, came over once.  Harding sent groups over both years I was there as well.

Crocless Aussie, who hasn't posted here for a while, was a part of one of these churches in Brisbane.

[Johnb]

Where is the command or approved example for singing with or without IM in a worshop service.   Then show me the biblical command or approved example of a "worship service".

[Bon Voyage]

Where is the command or approved example for singing with or without IM in a worshop service.   Then show me the biblical command or approved example of a "worship service".

We don't pretend to have a "worship service" in the School of the Bible.  Just monophonic singing with the intent of learning the scriptures, just like was done in the 1st Century.

[Jimbob]

God has no problem with musical instruments being used to worship and praise Him--evidenced by the mention of instruments in the Psalms. Why should Christians have a problem with them?

That's Old Testament.  Do you want to start making animal sacrifices too?







(I apologize.  As mentioned elsewhere, I heard this line used recently regarding clapping in worship.)

Whoever said that gets the triple award for today.

[Johnb]

I assume from the silence That there is no command or approved example of a "worship service".  Therefore there can be no law of exclusion that excludes IM from a "worship service"  that is an invention of man.

[Bon Voyage]

I assume from the silence That there is no command or approved example of a "worship service".  Therefore there can be no law of exclusion that excludes IM from a "worship service"  that is an invention of man.

The School of the Bible has no "worship service."  We do sing in monophonic chant to learn the scriptures, just as was done from the earliest of days in Christianity.

[sopranette]

"monophonic chant".......... lovely.

love,

Sopranette

[DCR]

I assume from the silence That there is no command or approved example of a "worship service".  Therefore there can be no law of exclusion that excludes IM from a "worship service"  that is an invention of man.

Okay, I'll bite.

While, the term "worship service" is not used in the NT, are you suggesting that there are no examples of folks assembling together for worship?

Never got together and sang, prayed, studied the Scriptures, took the Lord's Supper together, etc.?

What one happens to call that is mere semantics.  Whether we call it a "worship service" or a "jam session for Jesus"... the concept of the church meeting together in some formal manner seems to be there.

I don't think it's too awfully unreasonable to have a discussion on what can and should be done in these meetings from a Scriptural standpoint, whether you call it a "worship service" or something else.

[Bon Voyage]

I assume from the silence That there is no command or approved example of a "worship service".  Therefore there can be no law of exclusion that excludes IM from a "worship service"  that is an invention of man.

Okay, I'll bite.

While, the term "worship service" is not used in the NT, are you suggesting that there are no examples of folks assembling together for worship?

Never got together and sang, prayed, studied the Scriptures, took the Lord's Supper together, etc.?

What one happens to call that is mere semantics.  Whether we call it a "worship service" or a "jam session for Jesus"... the concept of the church meeting together in some formal manner seems to be there.

I don't think it's too awfully unreasonable to have a discussion on what can and should be done in these meetings from a Scriptural standpoint, whether you call it a "worship service" or something else.

You know and I know that it was to learn God's Word.  Not to singing Catholic style or play Pan's flute.

[Jon-Marc]

Show me the NT verse that forbids human sacrifice in worship first.  It ain't there.  So if you use IM, you might as well offer human sacrifices.

That's as good a way as any to avoid answering my request to PROVE that musical instruments are now offensive to God, because you can't do that.

As for animal sacrifices, they ceased when Jesus, the Lamb of God, was sacrificed for our sins. Animal sacrifices (which only provided a TEMPORARY sin covering) were no longer necessary, because a permanent solution was made with the sacrifice of the Perfect Lamb of God.

[DCR]

[marc]

Show me the NT verse that forbids human sacrifice in worship first.  It ain't there.  So if you use IM, you might as well offer human sacrifices.

That's as good a way as any to avoid answering my request to PROVE that musical instruments are now offensive to God, because you can't do that.

As for animal sacrifices, they ceased when Jesus, the Lamb of God, was sacrificed for our sins. Animal sacrifices (which only provided a TEMPORARY sin covering) were no longer necessary, because a permanent solution was made with the sacrifice of the Perfect Lamb of God.

Still, if you're going to add something fromt he Old Testament just because it isn't expressly forbidden, you may as well add it all.  I would go to the approved example of Jepthah, who offered his daughter as a human sacrifice to God.  This was in the book of Judges, not in the books of the law, so it is every bit as "approved" as anything in Psalms.

I repeat, if you use instruments between the opening and the closing prayer, you may as well offer human sacrifices in worship.

[Johnb]

DCR
I am simply drawing the absurd argument on IM based on English text and a "pattern of worship" to its logical conclusion.  From my study of the scriptures the primary purposes of the assembly was to partake of the LS, fellowship, exhort and make plans to evangelize the world.  While in deed worship to place i was more of an extention of their daily life as follower of Christ.  It is noy a play on words or semantics.  What is known as cooprate worship today is an invention of men.   A study of greek phrases and words describing "singing "make it highly unlikely that the NT was condeming IM by silence.  It makes even less sense seeing that God commanded his people in the OT to use IM and that there will be IM in heaven and the calling of the final judgement will be like a trumpet of the Lord.  If a congregation or group decide not to use IM I see no problem.  It is when this is used a a test of fellowship or faithfulness to God that I see a problem.  
Yes I am saying that even the RCC (as old as its tradition are) is just another invention of man in his attempt to follow Jesus.  

[Johnb]

Marc said

I repeat, if you use instruments between the opening and the closing prayer, you may as well offer human sacrifices in worship.
 
 
 
Where in scripture is the command and or approved example of a "worship service"  complete with an opening and closing prayer.   

Where is the approved example of apointing elders to an official church office? 

Where is the approved example or command for a local "preacher" that tends the flock?

Where is the biblical command or athority for a church collection used to support a building and preaching staff?

These are all carried forth from the OT so why don't you sacrifice animals?

IF IM IS WRONG IT IS WRONG ALL THE TIME EVERYWHERE.  NOT JUST BETWEEN 2 PRAYERS.  YOU HAVE NO BIBLICAL BASES FOR THIS CLAIM.

[DCR]

 

[Dennis]

Good catch DCR.

I am having trouble distinguishing those who are engaging in a bit of sarcastic fun and those who are stating their positions seriously.  For that reason, I have not tried to engage in this discussion.  However, some recent posts lead me to comment on the point I usually try to assert in such discussions.  The so-called "law of silence" is and always will be illogical, self contradicting, and un-biblical.

However, please don't let me spoil the fun.

[Bon Voyage]

Good catch DCR.

I am having trouble distinguishing those who are engaging in a bit of sarcastic fun and those who are stating their positions seriously.  For that reason, I have not tried to engage in this discussion.  However, some recent posts lead me to comment on the point I usually try to assert in such discussions.  The so-called "law of silence" is and always will be illogical, self contradicting, and un-biblical.

However, please don't let me spoil the fun.

Some folks are being sarcastic?  Can you tell by the emoticons?

[Johnb]

Gary said

Some folks are being sarcastic?  Can you tell by the emoticons?

I think Dennis might have been refering to me.  But at least he agrees that the "law of silence" is bunk.     

[marc]

All I see is you using logic that will lead to human sacrifice as part of worship.  Not to mention such other abominations as dancing half-clothed before the Lord, worshipping golden calves, Christmas trees and coffee bars in the building, and praise teams.

[DCR]

I think Dennis might have been refering to me.

Mmm... nope.  Try again. 

[Johnb]

OK.  I did not intend that so glad it wasn't me.