Author Topic: Instrumental Music in Worship  (Read 37042 times)

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Offline Johnb

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Re: Instrumental Music in Worship
« Reply #70 on: Tue Sep 09, 2008 - 17:40:19 »
Marc said

All I see is you using logic that will lead to human sacrifice as part of worship.  Not to mention such other abominations as dancing half-clothed before the Lord, worshipping golden calves, Christmas trees and coffee bars in the building, and praise teams.

Nope both old and NT forbid killing folks.

I am 60 and over weight so I don't think I will be dancing half naked.  But when I get a new hip I do like to dance.

In fact we do put up a Christmas tree in our building around the traditional holiday.  The same NT that tells of His death that we celebrate at the LS also tells of His birth and that seems a good thing to also celebrate.

We don;t have a coffee bar but we do have an expresso machine used by our members  (Even CoC folks last time I checked admitted there is nothing holy about the building).

We don't have a "praise team"  but if you can have a "worship service"  I see no reason not to have a man made "praise team".

Do you really want to get into a debate on pattern theology?

Marc  You really do seem to be a good man I just am amazed at your legalistic religious stand and extreme liberal political views.  ???

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Re: Instrumental Music in Worship
« Reply #70 on: Tue Sep 09, 2008 - 17:40:19 »

marc

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Re: Instrumental Music in Worship
« Reply #71 on: Tue Sep 09, 2008 - 17:41:45 »
But not at all amazed by my deadpan sarcasm?





















 ::tippinghat::





(a hint might be to compare what I've said here to what I've said on the two other similar threads currently active.  ::saint::   Possibly, the parenthetical statement on my first sarcastic post on this thread might be a hint.  I only got carried away when people started taking me seriously.

As to my extreme political liberalism, the word they use for that in most of the country is mainstream.  I voted for GWB twice, even.)

Offline Johnb

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Re: Instrumental Music in Worship
« Reply #72 on: Tue Sep 09, 2008 - 17:53:31 »
OK marc
You got me good. ::clappingoverhead::

Offline Dennis

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Re: Instrumental Music in Worship
« Reply #73 on: Tue Sep 09, 2008 - 19:52:26 »
Gary said

Some folks are being sarcastic?  Can you tell by the emoticons?

I think Dennis might have been refering to me.  But at least he agrees that the "law of silence" is bunk.    
Actually you are the one I was not sure about.

Offline Johnb

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Re: Instrumental Music in Worship
« Reply #74 on: Tue Sep 09, 2008 - 22:08:33 »
Dennis
Me sarcastic?  no never rofl
Always good to hear from you my brother.

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Re: Instrumental Music in Worship
« Reply #74 on: Tue Sep 09, 2008 - 22:08:33 »



Offline Dennis

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Re: Instrumental Music in Worship
« Reply #75 on: Wed Sep 10, 2008 - 08:05:46 »
Dennis
Me sarcastic?  no never rofl
Always good to hear from you my brother.
No, seriously, some of your arguments against leadership in our past discussions seem to me to be based on silence.  So when you said some things supportive of the silence argument, I was not sure if you were being sarcastic or not.

Offline zoonance

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Re: Instrumental Music in Worship
« Reply #76 on: Wed Sep 10, 2008 - 08:08:11 »
Dennis
Me sarcastic?  no never rofl
Always good to hear from you my brother.
No, seriously, some of your arguments against leadership in our past discussions seem to me to be based on silence.  So when you said some things supportive of the silence argument, I was not sure if you were being sarcastic or not.



Selective silentism

Offline DCR

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Re: Instrumental Music in Worship
« Reply #77 on: Wed Sep 10, 2008 - 09:02:04 »
Silence is only prohibitive when it comes to things I don't like.

Offline zoonance

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Re: Instrumental Music in Worship
« Reply #78 on: Thu Apr 30, 2009 - 10:25:20 »
I think IM might be "synagogue" in nature.   An invention by man, accepted by God, worshipped in by Jesus.  Not one word about it being nonauthorized because it wasn't an issue.  Issues of God are recorded.  Nonissues aren't.

blituri

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Re: Instrumental Music in Worship
« Reply #79 on: Sun May 17, 2009 - 18:45:42 »
After Israel fell into musical idolatry at Mount Sinai and God abandoned the NOBILITY to worship the starry host, that pagan sacrificial system was quarantined behind city walls in Jerusalem after the curse of the kings. 

The NARROW WAY people were commanded to ASSEMBLE which means a holy convocation at the Qahal, synagogue or Church in the wilderness. Since it was ordained by the Spirit OF Christ it is called The Church of Christ.  While the STATE organization got by with profaning the Sabbath (including instruments in the definition), the people were assembled OUTSIDE OF THE GATES or CAMP.

The assembly was INCLUSIVE of REST from ritual, READING and rehearsing or discussing the Word of God. That continued parallel with the curse of the Monarchy as a school of the Bible. After the RETURN and the synagogue was more organized it still "had no praise service" and was a WORD OF GOD school of the Bible.  Jesus exampled by STANDING UP TO READ and then decently sitting down to allow dialog (not preaching).  It had a poor box--for the poor!

Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city
       them that preach him,
       being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Paul uses synagogue words to define the assembly including using ONE MIND and ONE MOUTH to speak "that which is written." or Scripture.

God doesn't make mistakes and the ONLY place for spiritual worship was the SYNAGOGUE which the Jews say always existed: just common sense since Abraham was commanded to teach.  The SYNAGOGUE continued without a beat with the exception of observing the Lord's Supper. The Jewish synagogue continued on the seventh day but the church met on the first day of the week which was a WORK DAY.

So, don't believe anyone who says that the Jews just INVENTED the synagogue, God didn't condemn it and therefore WE can make our own additions.

IM was outlawed for the church in the wilderness by direct commands and common sense when God's word is being spoken: SPEAK is defined as the opposite of poetry or music..

Singing as an ACT was imposed in the year 373 in some churches and spllt the east from the west.  Preaching came about the same time as the priests could get paid for the first time in history other than through their private tent making or teaching.

If you cannot find SYNAGOGUE or CHURCH try looking up ASSEMBLY or GATHERING. The Qahal is still a common word used by the Jews for their SCHOOLS never called a worship center.  The Germans used SKUL.  If you cannot find WORSHIP defined inclusively and exclusively look up words such as GIVE ATTENDANCE to the reading of the word, to doctrine and exhortation. That defines the SYNAGOGUE which always followed a systematic plan of PREACHING by READING the Word of God--only.



« Last Edit: Sun May 17, 2009 - 18:52:16 by blituri »

marc

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Re: Instrumental Music in Worship
« Reply #80 on: Thu May 21, 2009 - 07:44:07 »
They'll stone you when you're playing your guitar.
Yes, but I would not feel so all alone,
Everybody must get stoned.

Offline koscheiman

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Re: Instrumental Music in Worship
« Reply #81 on: Thu May 21, 2009 - 08:52:40 »
I find it amazing what petty issues people will use to one-up each other...  ::help::

Is it petty to follow the Scriptures? In the Scriptures vocal music is authorized (cf Eph 5:19; Col 3:16; Mt 26:30; Acts 16:25; 1 Cor 14:15; James 5:13)
Biblical authority (2 Tim 3:16-17; 1 Pet 4:11) is determined in three ways:
1. Commands: Two types of commands
                               Generic - Specific
2. Examples Two types of examples
                               Binding - Non-Binding
3. Inference That which is necessary to obey (do) that which is specified

Can mechanical music be justified by the word of God (the authority)?
A. Is it a command?
         Not a single verse that authorizes instruments of music in the worship of the New   
         Testament church.
B. Is there a New Testament example?
          After the church came into existence - not one case of disciples using instruments
          of music in worship.
          Earliest: Sanction of Pope Vitalian (670 A.D.)
C. Does the Bible infer its use?  NO!
          Every place in the Scripture where the N.T. church worshipped in song -
          instruments are not found.
D. Is it Scriptural?
          To be Scriptural - the action must be authorized (sanctioned) by the New
          Testament (authority). There is no such authority (1 Pet 4:11).

Offline Barabbas

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Re: Instrumental Music in Worship
« Reply #82 on: Fri May 22, 2009 - 09:55:06 »
I find it amazing what petty issues people will use to one-up each other...  ::help::

Is it petty to follow the Scriptures? In the Scriptures vocal music is authorized (cf Eph 5:19; Col 3:16; Mt 26:30; Acts 16:25; 1 Cor 14:15; James 5:13)
Biblical authority (2 Tim 3:16-17; 1 Pet 4:11) is determined in three ways:
1. Commands: Two types of commands
                               Generic - Specific
2. Examples Two types of examples
                               Binding - Non-Binding
3. Inference That which is necessary to obey (do) that which is specified

Can mechanical music be justified by the word of God (the authority)?
A. Is it a command?
         Not a single verse that authorizes instruments of music in the worship of the New  
         Testament church.
B. Is there a New Testament example?
          After the church came into existence - not one case of disciples using instruments
          of music in worship.
          Earliest: Sanction of Pope Vitalian (670 A.D.)
C. Does the Bible infer its use?  NO!
          Every place in the Scripture where the N.T. church worshipped in song -
          instruments are not found.
D. Is it Scriptural?
          To be Scriptural - the action must be authorized (sanctioned) by the New
          Testament (authority). There is no such authority (1 Pet 4:11).


What scripture can you give that says the Bible is only interpreted by command, example, and necessary inference.  Why are some scriptures in the Old testament interpreted not with CENI but typologically? - like Matthew 2:15.  If the Bible is not ONLY interpreted through CENI, please give us the over-arching principle to determine how one knows where CENI is used and where it is not.  What principle do you use that determines a binding vs a non-binding command with CENI like foot washing or women covering their head? 

In other words - how do you maintain consistency and not just revert to language saying it should be self-evident.  I heard the non-instrumental position many times growing up in the Church of Christ and it's still not self evident to me.  It obviously is not self-evident since many interpret the Bible differently.   No offense, but to one looking from the outside-in it seems that this interpretation is more dependent on the temperament of the individual doing the interpreting than a objective approach to scriptures.   ::smile::

Offline koscheiman

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Re: Instrumental Music in Worship
« Reply #83 on: Fri May 22, 2009 - 11:55:00 »
I find it amazing what petty issues people will use to one-up each other...  ::help::

Is it petty to follow the Scriptures? In the Scriptures vocal music is authorized (cf Eph 5:19; Col 3:16; Mt 26:30; Acts 16:25; 1 Cor 14:15; James 5:13)
Biblical authority (2 Tim 3:16-17; 1 Pet 4:11) is determined in three ways:
1. Commands: Two types of commands
                               Generic - Specific
2. Examples Two types of examples
                               Binding - Non-Binding
3. Inference That which is necessary to obey (do) that which is specified

Can mechanical music be justified by the word of God (the authority)?
A. Is it a command?
         Not a single verse that authorizes instruments of music in the worship of the New  
         Testament church.
B. Is there a New Testament example?
          After the church came into existence - not one case of disciples using instruments
          of music in worship.
          Earliest: Sanction of Pope Vitalian (670 A.D.)
C. Does the Bible infer its use?  NO!
          Every place in the Scripture where the N.T. church worshipped in song -
          instruments are not found.
D. Is it Scriptural?
          To be Scriptural - the action must be authorized (sanctioned) by the New
          Testament (authority). There is no such authority (1 Pet 4:11).


What scripture can you give that says the Bible is only interpreted by command, example, and necessary inference.  Why are some scriptures in the Old testament interpreted not with CENI but typologically? - like Matthew 2:15.  If the Bible is not ONLY interpreted through CENI, please give us the over-arching principle to determine how one knows where CENI is used and where it is not.  What principle do you use that determines a binding vs a non-binding command with CENI like foot washing or women covering their head? 

In other words - how do you maintain consistency and not just revert to language saying it should be self-evident.  I heard the non-instrumental position many times growing up in the Church of Christ and it's still not self evident to me.  It obviously is not self-evident since many interpret the Bible differently.   No offense, but to one looking from the outside-in it seems that this interpretation is more dependent on the temperament of the individual doing the interpreting than a objective approach to scriptures.   ::smile::

I am sorry but I do not know what you mean by CENI.

marc

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Re: Instrumental Music in Worship
« Reply #84 on: Fri May 22, 2009 - 12:01:09 »
Command
Example
Necessary
Inference.

Offline koscheiman

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Re: Instrumental Music in Worship
« Reply #85 on: Fri May 22, 2009 - 12:32:46 »
I find it amazing what petty issues people will use to one-up each other...  ::help::

Is it petty to follow the Scriptures? In the Scriptures vocal music is authorized (cf Eph 5:19; Col 3:16; Mt 26:30; Acts 16:25; 1 Cor 14:15; James 5:13)
Biblical authority (2 Tim 3:16-17; 1 Pet 4:11) is determined in three ways:
1. Commands: Two types of commands
                               Generic - Specific
2. Examples Two types of examples
                               Binding - Non-Binding
3. Inference That which is necessary to obey (do) that which is specified

Can mechanical music be justified by the word of God (the authority)?
A. Is it a command?
         Not a single verse that authorizes instruments of music in the worship of the New  
         Testament church.
B. Is there a New Testament example?
          After the church came into existence - not one case of disciples using instruments
          of music in worship.
          Earliest: Sanction of Pope Vitalian (670 A.D.)
C. Does the Bible infer its use?  NO!
          Every place in the Scripture where the N.T. church worshipped in song -
          instruments are not found.
D. Is it Scriptural?
          To be Scriptural - the action must be authorized (sanctioned) by the New
          Testament (authority). There is no such authority (1 Pet 4:11).


What scripture can you give that says the Bible is only interpreted by command, example, and necessary inference.  Why are some scriptures in the Old testament interpreted not with CENI but typologically? - like Matthew 2:15.  If the Bible is not ONLY interpreted through CENI, please give us the over-arching principle to determine how one knows where CENI is used and where it is not.  What principle do you use that determines a binding vs a non-binding command with CENI like foot washing or women covering their head? 

In other words - how do you maintain consistency and not just revert to language saying it should be self-evident.  I heard the non-instrumental position many times growing up in the Church of Christ and it's still not self evident to me.  It obviously is not self-evident since many interpret the Bible differently.   No offense, but to one looking from the outside-in it seems that this interpretation is more dependent on the temperament of the individual doing the interpreting than a objective approach to scriptures.   ::smile::

The Bible is not solely interpreted by command, example, and necessary inference. But it is a fact that all commands come back to direct command, example, and necessary inference. As for instrumental music in worship there is not one direct command, example, or necessary inference to be found in the New Testament.

Offline zoonance

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Re: Instrumental Music in Worship
« Reply #86 on: Fri May 22, 2009 - 12:47:03 »
Wrangling over the word/idea of "authorized" appears to be the key.   What you or I think it means is less likely to be the "authorized" view of God's unless it is His definition.  Determine the idea of "authorization" first.  If the NT is a body of 'authorized versus nonauthorized' material then an argument can be made.  If the NT includes anything or excludes anything for any other purpose than to delineate 'authorized by God' stuff, then any argument whose Base IS firmly grounded on the idea of authorized by God to be His Will begins to fall apart.

In other words, where does the idea of "authorization" come from? *especially with details (which isn't the same as being obedient when called to obey, repent when called to repent, etc.)

Offline zoonance

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Re: Instrumental Music in Worship
« Reply #87 on: Fri May 22, 2009 - 12:48:25 »
I think IM might be "synagogue" in nature.   An invention by man, accepted by God, worshipped in by Jesus.  Not one word about it being nonauthorized because it wasn't an issue.  Issues of God are recorded.  Nonissues aren't.


Again "Where does the idea of 'authorized" come from?   Can man be guilty of inventing issues that aren't His?

Offline koscheiman

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Re: Instrumental Music in Worship
« Reply #88 on: Fri May 22, 2009 - 13:19:53 »
The Old Testament and the New Testament are written differently. In the Old Testament God spelled out what was authorized and what was not by presenting His will in the form of "you shall" and "you shall not". In Jeremiah 31 the prophet speaking for the LORD says "I will make a new covenant...not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers...I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people." As you can see the new covenant (or Testament) was to be different from the old. One of those differences was in the way God commanded or authorized an action and how He let it be known that an action was not authorized. Instead of "you shall" and "you shall not" He commanded by direct command, apostolic example, or necessary inference. No more "you shall not." Therefore we can know if there is no command in one of its three forms it is not authorized by God.
It is true than man tends to interpret Scripture differently from one another this has given rise to the many denominations. But God gave one interpretation and for the most part He made it easy to interpret correctly. It is when man thinks they know better than God or they let their pride get in the way that different interprtations arise. ::smile::

Offline gospel

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Re: Instrumental Music in Worship
« Reply #89 on: Fri May 22, 2009 - 13:39:33 »
Quote
I think IM might be "synagogue" in nature.   An invention by man, accepted by God, worshipped in by Jesus.  Not one word about it being nonauthorized because it wasn't an issue.  Issues of God are recorded.  Nonissues aren't

Either I am missing something

or

This debate is unbelievably ridiculous!!

If I am missing something then all that I'm about to say is horribly off point and off topic you all get a really good laugh...but hopefully I am not ...here goes

Without question God created, sound, the mechanics of sound,  the harmonics of sound, the beauty of harmony and the beauty of dissonance in music, in fact the mathematics of the universe are the part of the properties that make up the wondrous miraculous components of music itself....i.e  A = 440 vibrations per second, meaning the note A is the result of something vibrating 440 times in a second. If anyone on this board does not understand the intimacy God has with measurement and mathematics, they really need to altogether reread the bible under the influence of the Holy Spirit...sorry but its true... the measurements of Noah's Ark, the Tabernacle, the Ark of the Covenant were specifically dictated by God and indeed the dimensions of the very foundations of the universe were laid by God.

That stated

Preaching against music instrumental or vocal is akin to preaching against the sun the moon and the stars because some people worship astrology

Preaching against music is akin to preaching against mathematics because some people worship numerology

Was not David anointed when he played the Harp? Is not anointing God's ability?

2 Chron5;1 Thus all the work that Solomon made for the house of the LORD was finished: and Solomon brought in all the things that David his father had dedicated; and the silver, and the gold, and all the instruments, put he among the treasures of the house of God.

While the musician was playing, the LORD's power came over Elisha 2 Kings 3:15

The LORD God is my strength, and he will make my feet like hinds' feet, and he will make me to walk on my high places. To the chief singer on my stringed instruments. Hab 3:19

And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was on Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him
. 2 Sam 16:23


Meanwhile, David and all the house of Israel were celebrating before the LORD with all kinds of instruments made of fir wood, and with lyres, harps, tambourines, castanets and cymbals. 2 Sam 2:6

David and all Israel were celebrating before God with all their might, even with songs and with lyres, harps, tambourines, cymbals and with trumpets. 1 Chron 13:8

I can literally post scriptures all day that support instrumental music.
The bible does not preach against it....therefore all doctrines that teach that it does have inferred it and not read it.

Its a man made doctrine, therefore compromises the intent of God's Word

thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that Mark 7:13

Offline Barabbas

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Re: Instrumental Music in Worship
« Reply #90 on: Fri May 22, 2009 - 13:55:08 »
Quote
He commanded by direct command, apostolic example, or necessary inference. No more "you shall not." Therefore we can know if there is no command in one of its three forms it is not authorized by God.

Flesh this out a little bit.  I've searched many a time and not found this statement about the 3 forms of interpretation in the Bible.  I have found many other examples of different types of interpretation.  Jesus was very creative when he used "the sign of Jonah" to foretell his death and resurrection.  Peter interprets Noah and the flood to symbolize baptism in 1 Peter 3:21.  Jesus says in Matthew 5:13 that "until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished". 

There's at least enough in scripture that would make me at least question whether this command, example, and necessary inference method of interpretation is so critical that our whole salvation is dependent on it ... especially since there is nothing directly said about it in the Bible.  It seems to be wholly dependent on the reasoning of man, and if that's the case then I'm afraid the foundation is built upon sand.   ::eatingpopcorn:

Offline Barabbas

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Re: Instrumental Music in Worship
« Reply #91 on: Fri May 22, 2009 - 13:57:23 »

I can literally post scriptures all day that support instrumental music.
The bible does not preach against it....therefore all doctrines that teach that it does have inferred it and not read it.

Its a man made doctrine, therefore compromises the intent of God's Word

thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that Mark 7:13


Good point.

marc

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Re: Instrumental Music in Worship
« Reply #92 on: Fri May 22, 2009 - 14:09:45 »
Quote
I think IM might be "synagogue" in nature.   An invention by man, accepted by God, worshipped in by Jesus.  Not one word about it being nonauthorized because it wasn't an issue.  Issues of God are recorded.  Nonissues aren't

Either I am missing something

or

This debate is unbelievably ridiculous!!


You're not really missing anything, but some of the posts that seem serious are sarcastic.  Problem is, some aren't.

blituri

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Re: Instrumental Music in Worship
« Reply #93 on: Fri May 22, 2009 - 16:18:11 »
GOSPEL says lots of things but he cannot find a single example of congregational singing with instrumental accompaniment in the Qahal, synagogue or Church of Christ in the wilderness.  I am afraid that gospel is lifting quotes from a lexicon and like the scholars does not care enough to understand the context.

A=440 was not invented by God and the word TEACH that which is written would never sound 440 as a tuneful note: melody as tunefulness belongs to the 19th century. Because none of the Bible is METRICAL you could not sing tunefully to save your life.  Harmony, not related to melody, was not invented by God or people would have sung harmony before about 1200 when the monks and professionals discovered that they had ten fingers AFTER the invention of the organ. Even then, you could not and no one DID do congregational singing with the organ accompanying.

Hab 3:1 A prayer of Habakkuk the prophet upon Shigionoth.

A PRAYER IS NOT A SONG AS IN TUNEFUL:

H8605 tephillâh tef-il-law' From H6419 ; intercession, supplication; by implication a hymn:—prayer.

Shigionoth is a poem set to music and signals a judgmental message:

Shiggayown (h7692) shig-gaw-yone' from 7686; prop. aberration, i. e. (tech.) a dithyramb or rambling poem: - Shiggaion, Shigionoth

Shagah (h7686) shaw-gaw'; a prim. root; to stray (caus. mislead), usually (fig.) to mistake, espec. (mor.) to transgress; by extens. (through the idea of intoxication) to reel, (fig.) be enraptured: - (cause to) go astray, deceive, err, be ravished, sin through ignorance, (let, make to) wander.

But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment. Is.28:7

WINE is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise. Pr.20:1

IF YOU OFFERED A PRAYER WITH JESUS IT WOULD BE SPEAKING AND NOT SINGING

blue]Matt 26:30And when they had sung G5214 an hymn G5214  they went G1831 out into G1519 the mount G3735 of Olives G1636.

[30] Kai humnêsantes exêlthon eis to Oros tôn Elaiôn.

    Humneo in Prose, celebrate in a hymn, commemorate, 2 .descant upon, in song or speech, II. tell over and over again, harp upon, repeat, recite, Proverbs 1:20, sing, recite the form of the law, Id.Lg.871a: chant X.Ages.11.2[/color]

Hab 3:19 The Lord God is my strength, and he will make my feet like hinds feet, and he will make me to walk upon mine high places. To the chief singer on my stringed instruments.

Was added for CANTILLATION and singing TO a harp meant plucking the harp and then matching YOUR single note to the instruments's note.  The word is CANTILLATION which added emphasis for rhythm but NOT a tune.

This word, in The Companion Bible, stands in the subscriptions of eight Psalms, that is to say, 3, 5, 53, 54, 60 (singular), 66, 75, and Habakkuk 3. (Not in the super-scriptions of Psalms 4, 6, 54, 55, 61 (singular with 'al instead of Beth), 67, and 76).

The word does not MEAN to play an instrument: the context is of STRIKING his heart.

Stringed Instruments is:
H5058 negıynâh negıynath neg-ee-naw', neg-ee-nath' From H5059 ; properly instrumental music;
by implication a stringed instrument;
by extension a poem set to music;
specifically an epigram:—stringed instrument, musick, Neginoth [plural], song.

    "Neginoth" is from nagan, to strike, or smite. Hence it has hitherto been associated with the striking of the strings of some musical instruments! But why should the striking be connected with strings? Is there no other kind of smiting known? Why may it not refer to the stroke of affliction, or smiting with words? In deed, it is so associated in Lamentations 3:63 : "I am he whom they smite [with their words]". In all these Neginoth Psalms there is the note deliverance from personal smitings. See 3:2; 5:6; 53:1; 54:3; 60:3, 5, 11; 66:10 -12; 75:4, 5. We have the verb again in 77:7, "I call to remembrance my song", or my stroke of affliction. So in Isaiah 38:20, "We will sing, or make songs", or we will make songs concerning my stroke, or afflictions. In Habakkuk 3:19 we may, in the same way, understand it as "relating to my smitings", that is to say, those referred to in verse 16.

The prophets--by the Spirit of Christ--universally define the Civil-Military-Clergy Complex as robbers or parasites: they were IMPOSED as part of the CURSE of God turning them over to worship the starry host and serpents BECAUSE of musical idolatry at Mount Sinnai. The righteous population were EXCLUDED from the curse of the sacrificial system and attended synagogue or church in the wilderness which OUTLAWED "vocal or instrumental rejoicing" whichwas intended to frighten the enemy and threaten them with a sexual rapture. The same is true of ELISHA: the HARP was a MARK that God was going to DESTROY the food supply of the Ahab-Jezebel people.  Amos and Isaiah use the instrument to MARK or identify those people being starved for the Word of God.

blituri

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Re: Instrumental Music in Worship
« Reply #94 on: Fri May 22, 2009 - 16:53:14 »
Meanwhile, David and all the house of Israel were celebrating before the LORD with all kinds of instruments made of fir wood, and with lyres, harps, tambourines, castanets and cymbals. 2 Sam 2:6

David and all Israel were celebrating before God with all their might, even with songs and with lyres, harps, tambourines, cymbals and with trumpets. 1 Chron 13:8

I can literally post scriptures all day that support instrumental music.
The bible does not preach against it....therefore all doctrines that teach that it does have inferred it and not read it.


NO YOU CANNOT FIND A JOT OR TITTLE OF THE USE OF MUSIC IN THE SPIRITUAL WORSHIP OF RIGHTEOUS PEOPLE: Instruments from Genesis to Revelation point to the Mother of Harlots religion. So, don't forget that before David ALL religious NOISE was made by females. After David who was abandoned to worship the STARRY HOSTS at a Jebusite High Place, the names of the guilds, the instruments, the style of singing and the dress were ALL female. That continues in the Catholic church.

David had sinned so that he could NEVER return to the presence of God so God permitted him an ALTERNATIVE altar at a pagan worship center INSTEAD of killing him.  When David went naked and DANCED it is said that he DANCED THE WOMAN'S PART. That is why he boasted that he had made himself VILE but the camp following slave women HONORED HIM.

2 Sam 6:5 And David and all the house of Israel played before the Lord
on all manner of instruments made of fir wood
even on harps, and on psalteries, and on timbrels,
and on cornets, and on cymbals.

Playing instruments always involved sexual play as at Mount Sinai. We will look at that aspect later.

Quasten notes that the tambourine , like in Augustine,

    "had already occupied an important position in the cult of the Egyptians, for its sound, which was deep and hollow, expelled the demons. The rhythmic musical character of the tambourine was highly suited to induce psychic stimulation."( p. 37)

Salax , a-cis, adj. [salio; cf. sagax, from sagio] .
I. Fond of leaping, esp. of male animals, lustful, lecherous, salacious: galli, Varr. R. R. 3, 9, 5 : aries, Ov. F. 4, 771 : salaciora animalia, Lact. Opif. Dei, 14: salacissimi mares, Col. 7, 9, 1 ; 8, 2, 9: cauda, Hor. S. 1, 2, 45 .--Vulgarly applied to Priapus: deus, Auct. Priap. 14, 1; 34, 1; and sarcastically: salacissimus Juppiter, Sen. ap. Lact. 1, 16, 10.--

II. Poet. transf., that provokes lust, provocative: erucae, Ov. R. Am. 799 : bulbi, Mart. 3, 75, 3 : herba, i.e. eruca, Ov. A. A. 2, 422 ; Mart. 10, 48, 10.

Ov. A. A. 2, 422 Ovid's Art of Love: Book II
and you will have the very opposite of complacency in the athletes Greece, in the inactivity of peace, feeds up. And the wrestler's art is a devil's thing. The devil wrestled with, and crushed to death, the first human beings. Its very attitude has power in it of the serpent kind, firm to hold-tortures to clasp-slippery to glide away. You have no need of crowns; why do you strive to get pleasures from crowns?

People PRETEND that God is silent when He shouts. The baker put the hole in the donut for a purpose and NOT for street people to FILL IN.

THE DANCING BY DAVID

2 Sam 6:14 And David danced before the Lord with all his might;
and David was girded with a linen ephod.

2 Samuel 6.[14] et David saltabat totis viribus ante Dominum porro David erat accinctus ephod lineo [15] et David et omnis domus Israhelducebant arcam testamenti Domini in iubilo et in clangore bucinae

"The ritual dance was probably widespread in the ancient East. David's performance has Egyptian parallels. Seti I, the father of Rameses II, and three other Pharaohs are said to have danced before a deity, and Asiatic monuments attest the custom elsewhere... The description of David's dance: he 'danced before Jehovah with all his might... leaping and dancing before Jeh' (2 S 6: 14-16) suggests three features that particular display and the mode of dancing which it represented: violent exertion, leaping (Mephassez) and whirling round (mekharker) . Perhaps the whirling dance of Islam is a modern parallel to the last." (Int Std Bible Ency., Games, p. 1170).

PUKING from the spinning DANCE WAS PROOF THAT THE GODS WERE INDWELLING: CLAPPING IN HEBREW ALSO MEANS VOMIT.

Here is David's PRAISE word as KING of a nation ABANDONED to worship the starry host like all pagan nations. However, not in the VILEST slaughter system could speakers, singers or instrument players come close or enter into the holy places. They were outside performing what is called EXORCISM and not spiritual worship.



2 Sam 6:20 Then David returned to bless his household.
And Michal the daughter of Saul came out to meet David,
and said, How glorious was the king of Israel to day,
who uncovered himself to day
in the eyes of the handmaids of his servants,
as one of the vain fellows shamelessly uncovereth himself

Nu-do I. to make naked or bare; to strip, bare, lay bare, expose to view, uncover (syn.: exuo, detego, revelo).

Scurra , ae, m. 1. A city buffoon, droll, jester (usually in the suite of wealthy persons, and accordingly a kind of parasite; syn.: -Of the clown in a pantomime, Juv. 13, sannio, parasitus)

Sannio , o-nis, m. [sanna] , I. one who makes mimicking grimaces, a buffoon (cf. scurra), Cic. de Or. 2, 61, 251; id. Fam. 9, 16, 10; Amm. 14, 6, 16.

Parasi-tus , i, m., = parasitos, lit. one who eats with another; hence, I. In gen., a guest (pure Lat. conviva): parasiti Jovis, the gods, Varr. ap. Aug. Civ. Dei, 6, 7; App. M. 10, p. 246, 35.--Hence, parasitus Phoebi, a player, actor, Mart. 9, 29, 9.--
II. In partic., in a bad sense, one who, by flattery and buffoonery, manages to live at another's expense, a sponger, toad-eater, parasite (syn. scurra): nos parasiti planius ...

However, people are correct: God never said Thou shalt not go naked and sing and dance and play with the girls.  ALL performing arts are identified as HYPOCRITES as Jesus pointed to Isaiah and Ezekiel to mark the Scribes and Pharisees as hypocrites by naming speakers, singers and instrument players.  Yet, God never said "Thou shalt NOT perform the role of hypocrite."  If anyone is inclinec then I feel certain that God does not care: he would say "eat, drink and be merry" because YOUR words are more important than MY words.

I would get some girls and all of the FEMALE instruments, sing, dance, play and strip off my clothes next Sunday or I might feel like a hypocrite.

marc

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Re: Instrumental Music in Worship
« Reply #95 on: Fri May 22, 2009 - 18:23:59 »
The Old Testament and the New Testament are written differently. In the Old Testament God spelled out what was authorized and what was not by presenting His will in the form of "you shall" and "you shall not". In Jeremiah 31 the prophet speaking for the LORD says "I will make a new covenant...not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers...I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people." As you can see the new covenant (or Testament) was to be different from the old. One of those differences was in the way God commanded or authorized an action and how He let it be known that an action was not authorized. Instead of "you shall" and "you shall not" He commanded by direct command, apostolic example, or necessary inference. No more "you shall not." Therefore we can know if there is no command in one of its three forms it is not authorized by God.
It is true than man tends to interpret Scripture differently from one another this has given rise to the many denominations. But God gave one interpretation and for the most part He made it easy to interpret correctly. It is when man thinks they know better than God or they let their pride get in the way that different interprtations arise. ::smile::


So we're left with this?



Find the five acts of worship in the above picture.

blituri

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Re: Instrumental Music in Worship
« Reply #96 on: Fri May 22, 2009 - 21:47:42 »
There were no acts of worship under the Patriarchal system or by the spiritual people who lived UNDER the Law of Moses which was to regulate the NATIONAL system turned over to worship the starry host. Many Jews believe that the synagogue existed at any time God spoke to men like Abraham who had the mission of being a blessing to the nations: how better than to teach God's Word which had been radicalized on Clay tablets.

Our federal government has its Civil-Military-Clergy Complex which regulates the SECULAR AFFAIRS: there is nothing done by the NATIONAL GOVERNMENT which had or intended to have any effect on the human spirit.  All governments have their own priestly class: for instance they will tell you at National Cathedral that YOU are not a participant but a SPECTATOR.  Under the Monarchy YOU could not even be a spectator of what God CONFINED inside the gates or camp.

On the REST day the Civil Government and its priestly class were PROFANING the Sabbath (a musical, polluting, prostituting word) without consequence because it had been ABANDONED to worship the pagan gods AND to carry out the captivity and death sentence imposed at Mount Sinai.

If our Civil government has a STATE ritual to greet and impress visiting opponents, the Marine Corp Band or some other LEVITE type musical performance is called for.  This was to IMPRESS the visitors and the PRAISE singing meaning to "make self vile" was a threat to anyone who did not go away understanding that Israel was not to be tampered with.

Jacob had warned as PROPHECY or some one doing a retrospective NOT to attend the gatherings of the tribe of LEVI.  If you were not of this very ancient GUILD which operated in Egypt and later had Canaanite names denoting slavery or bondage, YOU were not permitted to be INSIDE THE CAMP during the animal slaughter.  This was not God's command but God's ABANDONMENT of them to conduct their most ancient, superstitious rituals:

You ritually murder your god periodically
The King becomes the agent of the gods and you kill the KING
The King wises up and picks a SCAPEGOAT using animals.
But sacrificial music was always to SILENCE the voice of the victim: God or Christ at the cross.

As NOT part of the tribe of Levi which Father Jacob warned you about, YOU were put "outside the camp" to find the TRUE God.
In the case of the Temple Dedication, the NOISE signalled God to SHUT DOWN the unwanted Temple.  However, the NON Levi people were OUTSIDE THE CAMP: they prayed to God and God answered from HEAVEN.

HERE IS THE DIRECT COMMAND NOT TO TRY TO RESTORE THE CURSE ALL OF THE MUSICAL DISCORDERS BOAST ABOUT RESTORING.

Heb. 13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you,
        who have spoken unto you the word of God: [only]
        whose faith follow,
        considering the end of their conversation.

That would APPEAR to exclude the words of a favorite false teacher?

The examples of the synagogue and church and common sense is that you take the Word as it has been given to you.  You READ the whole thought pattern.  You show parallel passages.  At the end of a period of time you would be--as those who discussed the Declaration and Address--competent DISCIPLES.  Devotion to the WORD has been the primary emphasis of the Church of Christ until recently. No preacher who is a student of the Word IN CONTEXT will ever have to worry about writing sermons: just open the Bible and it is easy on you and the DISCIPLES go away having LEARNED: Learning or giving heed to the Word is Paul's primary worship word. The Lord's Supper is step one in evangelism.

Increasingly "scholars" are promoting a RETURN to the Law of Moses to define our faith and WORSHIP SERVICES. That makes sense because the Monarchy had been abandoned to the old Babylonianism and the mark of the END TIME will be a sudden rise of performance speakers, singers and instrument players John called sorcerers.

Heb. 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

He outlawed instrumental praise for the synagogue: he never changed the LAW.

Heb. 13:9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines.
        For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats,
        which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.

Heb. 13:10 We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle.
Heb. 13:11 For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp.

Heb. 13:12 Wherefore Jesus also,
        that he might sanctify the people with his own blood,
        suffered without the gate.

The Levites performing EXORCISM as the prophesying word proves were INSIDE the camp but NEVER inside of a HOUSE.
The synagogue and the RIGHTEOUS people were always OUTSIDE the camp and NEVER participated in the vile animal slaughter as a VIRTUAL attempt to murder their gods (now the Astrial gods)

HERE IS A DIRECT COMMAND

Heb. 13:13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp,
        bearing his reproach.
Heb. 13:14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.
Heb. 13:15 By him therefore
        let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually,
        that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.

And Christ creates the FRUIT of the lips which is the Word of God--ONLY

Is. 57:19 I create the fruit of the lips; Peace, peace to him that is far off, and to him that is near, saith the LORD; and I will heal him.

In Isaiah 58 Christ in Spirit OUTLAWS speaking your own words.

A SUPERNATURAL SIGN OF LYING WONDERS: there is not a jot or tittle of MUSICAL content from Genesis to Revelation. The instruments were called "machines for doing hard work" and God calls it NOISE and not MUSIC.  No one ever held church (synagogue) service with a PRAISE SERVICE--that was outlawed in the wilderness.  The SABBATH means REST and is never defined as a WORSHIP service.  If you go to Jerusalem to worship you FALL ON YOUR FACE and don't engage in singing with instrumental accompaniment.  If you truly worship as the early church did in the outer court: you teach the apostles doctrine and how better to do evangelism every day.  If you worship in YOUR SPIRIT whatever you do will focus on the WORDS OF CHRIST.

On the other  hand 100% of the Babylon tablets, the Bible, contemporaneous writers, the Classical writers, all of the historical theologians and all founders of denominations define it as a VILE ACT to claim to treat God with reverence and Godly fear AND play machines which they often confess BRINGS ON A SEXUAL feeling they had with their wives.

How do YOU suppose that the MASSES are in a virtual hysteria to FORCE people to bow when they pipe when ALL recorded evidence MARKS them as performing SORCERY (Rev 18:23 for instance and all musical terms).

THE SCRIPTURES ARE QUITE CLEAR BUT IF YOU DON'T KNOW THE PLOT THEN A SENTENCE OUT OF CONTEXT MEANS THAT SOMEONE IS TRYING TO FOOL YOU AND KEEP YOU IGNORANT OF THE WORD.

You cannot be rich and famous with a mega-temple complex and be faithful to the Word: Jesus made a promise. So, don't GO OUT to the latest show.

And Nadab and Abihu died, when they offered strange fire before the Lord. Numbers 26:61

And those that were numbered of them were twenty and three thousand, all males from a month old and upward: for they were not numbered among the children of Israel, because there was no inheritance given them among the children of Israel. Numbers 26:62


 
« Last Edit: Fri May 22, 2009 - 21:55:58 by blituri »

Offline gospel

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Re: Instrumental Music in Worship
« Reply #97 on: Tue May 26, 2009 - 11:49:21 »
Quote
Quote
Quote
I think IM might be "synagogue" in nature.   An invention by man, accepted by God, worshipped in by Jesus.  Not one word about it being nonauthorized because it wasn't an issue.  Issues of God are recorded.  Nonissues aren't

Quote
Either I am missing something

or

This debate is unbelievably ridiculous!!


Quote
You're not really missing anything, but some of the posts that seem serious are sarcastic.  Problem is, some aren't
.

Thanks I needed to know that!! ::smile::

Offline gospel

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Re: Instrumental Music in Worship
« Reply #98 on: Tue May 26, 2009 - 12:27:39 »
Quote
When David went naked and DANCED it is said that he DANCED THE WOMAN'S PART. That is why he boasted that he had made himself VILE but the camp following slave women HONORED HIM.

 rofl

This is nonsense!!! Some of the things some of you are spewing is scary to the point of horrifying. You have been distracted from the Gospel and are focused on a diversion that is unfruitful, contentious and in no way constructive.

Do any of you actually minister and evangelize in your neighborhoods, the surrounding communities or the nations of  the world?
I really hope not because clearly you have fallen sway to ministering man made traditions handed down to you by those who themselves were in error.
Some of you are getting further and further away from the Gospel and more and more caught up in tradition by using your intellect to scour through the bible for anything that will help you support and concoct all sorts of extravagant means to support your contentions.
You're using the scripture to ban, castigate and denounce that which God has ordained and blessed and the scriptures clearly do not condemn. Michal condemned David for praising God. This should be a BIG clue and a decisive factor of which side of the fence you want to be on

let us read..

 Michal the daughter of Saul had no child to the day of her death. 2 Samuel 6:23

This passage makes it clear that Michal remained unfruitful as a result and because of her criticism of David.
 
It can be concluded therefore that criticism of those that praise God out of heart of pure heart of worship of Him results in spiritual bareness and unfruitfulness.
That is why dry empty worship services are often the result of this sort of teaching.

God the Creator of the Universe is the Mind behind all Creation. God is the Genuis behind the miracle, the mathematics and the mechanics of sound, harmony and melody...NOT THE DEVIL!!

To say otherwise is to say that the Devil is a creative being....He is not, He has no power to Create and to pervert that which God has created.
Therefore music that glorifies God and the Lord Jesus is music that is being used for the purpose for which all things were created...TO GLORIFY GOD!

Go back to and never stray from the fundamentals. Below are a few fundamentals that ever Bible believing Christian should know

1. God created all things
2. All Things in Creation were created to glorify God
3. Music is one of those things


These are fundamental principles that over-ride all manner of  theoretical, intellectual cold empty hearted, meaningless rhetoric. Furthermore no manner how persuasive those arguments may seem... they all derive from a "spirit of religion" and are totally void of God's intent and purpose and makes his Word of non effect!
 
Now lets look at Psalm 150

1 Praise the LORD!
Praise God in His sanctuary;
Praise Him in His mighty expanse.
2 Praise Him for His mighty deeds;
Praise Him according to His excellent greatness.

verses 1 and 2 tell us who to praise and why

3 Praise Him with trumpet sound;
Praise Him with harp and lyre.
4 Praise Him with timbrel and dancing;
Praise Him with stringed instruments and pipe.
5 Praise Him with loud cymbals;
Praise Him with resounding cymbals.


Verses 3,4 and 5 tell us how


6 Let everything that has breath praise the LORD.
Praise the LORD!

Verse 6  tells us who

I suggest you follow the instruction in verse 6 and quit wasting time on unproductive unedifying controversies...

I suggest you sing a hymn, after all the Lord and the disciples did

After singing a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives. Mark 14:26

Jesus was the one telling the story of the prodigal son...he went on to say the following.....

“Now his older son was in the field, and when he came and approached the house, he heard music and dancing. “And he summoned one of the servants and began inquiring what these things could be. Luke 15:25,26

Some of you are like the older son....you hear music, singing and dancing and say
"what could this be?"

The reason he needed to have the celebration explained was clear.....
He missed the point!
« Last Edit: Tue May 26, 2009 - 13:42:48 by gospel »

marc

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Re: Instrumental Music in Worship
« Reply #99 on: Tue May 26, 2009 - 12:31:55 »
It's best not to read Blituri's posts without taking the proper medication first.

Offline gospel

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Re: Instrumental Music in Worship
« Reply #100 on: Tue May 26, 2009 - 12:38:21 »
Quote
It's best not to read Blituri's posts without taking the proper medication first.

Thanks for that suggestion I'll keep that in mind

 ::smile::

Offline Mere Nick

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Re: Instrumental Music in Worship
« Reply #101 on: Tue May 26, 2009 - 12:42:54 »
It's best not to read Blituri's posts without taking the proper medication first.

It's not legal.


blituri

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Re: Instrumental Music in Worship
« Reply #102 on: Wed May 27, 2009 - 21:36:53 »
Actually, as they say, Faithful and decent Michal who refused to go out with David and the CAMP FOLLOWERS was totally disgusted with David's naked and salacious dance: his singing, dancing naked and "making himself vile" with the servant girls is defined as ACTING THE WOMAN'S PART.

Lu-do  B. To play, sport, frisk, frolic an ad pugnandum,A. To sport, play with any thing, to practise as a pastime, amuse one's self with any thing. Especially., to play on an instrument of music, to make or compose music or song: B. To sport, dally, wanton (cf. "amorous play,"

FOR THIS AFFRONT GOD ABANDONED THEM TO WORSHIP THE STARRY HOST SAYS STEPHEN CONNECTING AMOS AND THE MUSICAL IDOLATRY OF A TRINITY OF GODS AT MOUNT SINAI. 

However, David as one of those kings selected to lead the people into captivity and death, felt threatened by the little woman so he managed to have all of Saul's DNA erradicated including offering one up for HUMAN SACRIFICE. Only one cripple was spared and that was because of Abner.  It is stated and possible that these were Michal's children so DAVID like all oriental potentates ERADICATED the competion.  To think that God PUNISHED Michal because she questioned what David called MAKING MYSELF VILE proves that people will do ANYTHING to USE musicians to BLEED WORSHIP from God and His Word: that is the Lucifer-Zoe principle.

God always calls it NOISE: praise or singing means to make self vile and is the root of the word LUCIFER.  It means to ring, resound, re-echo with houling, cry out, wail, yelling or shrieks: The Jewish Encyclopedia says that the easterns would hear the church "singing" as screeching and screaming: that's what I hear with all of the new style a cappella taking the name of God in vain when GOD HAS NOT SPOKEN to them.

Jer. 48:36 Therefore mine heart shall sound for Moab like pipes, and mine heart shall sound like pipes for the men of Kir-heres: because the riches that he hath gotten are perished.

You missed card class 101a--at ACU, LU or some U: God abandoned the Civil-Military-Clergy to worship the starry host and David's whirling dance was in imitation of the wandering stars.  If you got drunk and puked they thought that the spirits were inside. David was rising up to PLAY as they did at Mount Sinai AND God abandoned them to that worshipl.  Reading 101 would tell you that God abandoned the LEVI tribe to perform this "killing the gods" rituals INSIDE CLOSED CITY GATES. That is why the tribe of Levi HAD NO INHERITANCE.

2 Sam 6:20 Then David returned to bless his household.
       And Michal the daughter of Saul came out to meet David,
       and said, How glorious was the king of Israel to day,
       who uncovered himself to day
       in the eyes of the handmaids of his servants,
       as one of the vain fellows shamelessly uncovereth himself

    Nu-do I. to make naked or bare; to strip, bare, lay bare, expose to view, uncover (syn.: exuo, detego, revelo).

    Scurra , ae, m. 1. A city buffoon, droll, jester (usually in the suite of wealthy persons, and accordingly a kind of parasite;
    syn.: -Of the clown in a pantomime, Juv. 13, sannio, parasitus)


ALL SUCH SINGER/DANCER/INSTRUMENTALISTS WERE CALLED PARASITES BECAUSE THEY PRODUCED NOTHING OF VALUE AND ATE UP THE WIDOW'S LIVING. CHRIST in the prophets called them robbers and parasites IMPOSED because of sin: they stil are.

When God pours out His WRATH in the Hebrew He sends Jesters and buffons: the Wrath Paul warned about includes the singing, clapping and playing instruments which is God sending you a strong delusion: it is called ORGY.

Sannio , o-nis, m. [sanna] , I. one who makes mimicking grimaces, a buffoon (cf. scurra), Cic. de Or. 2, 61, 251; id. Fam. 9, 16, 10; Amm. 14, 6, 16.

Parasi-tus , i, m., = parasitos, lit. one who eats with another; hence, I. In gen., a guest (pure Lat. conviva): parasiti Jovis, the gods, Varr. ap. Aug. Civ. Dei, 6, 7; App. M. 10, p. 246, 35.--Hence, parasitus Phoebi, a player, actor, Mart. 9, 29, 9.--

II. In partic., in a bad sense, one who, by flattery and buffoonery, manages to live at another's expense, a sponger, toad-eater, parasite (syn. scurra): nos parasiti planius ... Quasi mures semper edimus alienum cibum, etc., Plaut. Capt. 1, 1, 7 ; cf. id. Pers. 1, 3, 3; id. Stich. 2, 1, 42: parasitorum in comoediis assentatio, Cic. Lael. 26, 98 : edaces parasiti, Hor. Ep. 2, 1, 173 ; Juv. 1, 139. --Comically, of a whip: ne ulmos parasitos faciat, that he will make his elm-twigs stick to me like parasites, i. e. give me a sound flogging, Plaut. Ep. 2, 3, 5.--The tutelar deity of parasites was Hercules, Plaut. Curc. 2, 3, 79.


The god of the parasites as the Abomination of Desolation including music and sexuality in the holy places was Hercules or Herakles who introduces sexual perversion. 

Jesus marked the Scribes and Pharisees (rewriting for fun and profit) as hypocrites by pointing to rhetoricians, singers and instrument players. This was a MARK of people who had no intention of teaching the truth and an audience who had no intention of learning "that which has been taught."  Hypocrite firstly points to performance preaching and nextly to CANTUS or singing which is defined as "charming" or "Sorcery" (Re 18).  The sons of the Devil are those who "speak on their own." So, that leaves you out in the heat with the captors having taken you captive and you clap for them all the way and get VIOLENT when people suggest that you have been CULTIFIED.

You do NOT -- even if you could hallucinate singing in School of the Bible with Jesus as teacher -- "sing that which is written with one mind and one mouth" defined as Scripture in Rom 15.  You do not use SPIRIT which is the Word of Christ (John 6:63; col 3).  You do not SPEAK but sing: SPEAK is by definition OPPOSITE to poetry or music which no one ever believed and still do not believe because "people set their lies to melody to deceive the simple."

Both the singing AND melody is IN THE HEART which is the only place God listens--worship IN THE SPIRIT is a place.

That is because singing as in our sense always meant WITCHCRAFT or SORCERY: someone easily slipping lies past your rational or spiritual mind.

Why would an adult even think about the MUSIC word if the president of your company is holding weekly classes to train future executives? 

How come it is this prophesied EXPLOSION OF KNOWLEDGE which has the only generation without out a clue about God and His Word.  It's in the Book so giggle all the way: I dont' get paid either way.  But MOST are about at the "drink the KoolAid" stage.

Offline koscheiman

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Re: Instrumental Music in Worship
« Reply #103 on: Thu May 28, 2009 - 00:19:26 »
Actually, as they say, Faithful and decent Michal who refused to go out with David and the CAMP FOLLOWERS was totally disgusted with David's naked and salacious dance: his singing, dancing naked and "making himself vile" with the servant girls is defined as ACTING THE WOMAN'S PART.

Lu-do  B. To play, sport, frisk, frolic an ad pugnandum,A. To sport, play with any thing, to practise as a pastime, amuse one's self with any thing. Especially., to play on an instrument of music, to make or compose music or song: B. To sport, dally, wanton (cf. "amorous play,"

FOR THIS AFFRONT GOD ABANDONED THEM TO WORSHIP THE STARRY HOST SAYS STEPHEN CONNECTING AMOS AND THE MUSICAL IDOLATRY OF A TRINITY OF GODS AT MOUNT SINAI. 

However, David as one of those kings selected to lead the people into captivity and death, felt threatened by the little woman so he managed to have all of Saul's DNA erradicated including offering one up for HUMAN SACRIFICE. Only one cripple was spared and that was because of Abner.  It is stated and possible that these were Michal's children so DAVID like all oriental potentates ERADICATED the competion.  To think that God PUNISHED Michal because she questioned what David called MAKING MYSELF VILE proves that people will do ANYTHING to USE musicians to BLEED WORSHIP from God and His Word: that is the Lucifer-Zoe principle.

God always calls it NOISE: praise or singing means to make self vile and is the root of the word LUCIFER.  It means to ring, resound, re-echo with houling, cry out, wail, yelling or shrieks: The Jewish Encyclopedia says that the easterns would hear the church "singing" as screeching and screaming: that's what I hear with all of the new style a cappella taking the name of God in vain when GOD HAS NOT SPOKEN to them.

Jer. 48:36 Therefore mine heart shall sound for Moab like pipes, and mine heart shall sound like pipes for the men of Kir-heres: because the riches that he hath gotten are perished.

You missed card class 101a--at ACU, LU or some U: God abandoned the Civil-Military-Clergy to worship the starry host and David's whirling dance was in imitation of the wandering stars.  If you got drunk and puked they thought that the spirits were inside. David was rising up to PLAY as they did at Mount Sinai AND God abandoned them to that worshipl.  Reading 101 would tell you that God abandoned the LEVI tribe to perform this "killing the gods" rituals INSIDE CLOSED CITY GATES. That is why the tribe of Levi HAD NO INHERITANCE.

2 Sam 6:20 Then David returned to bless his household.
       And Michal the daughter of Saul came out to meet David,
       and said, How glorious was the king of Israel to day,
       who uncovered himself to day
       in the eyes of the handmaids of his servants,
       as one of the vain fellows shamelessly uncovereth himself

    Nu-do I. to make naked or bare; to strip, bare, lay bare, expose to view, uncover (syn.: exuo, detego, revelo).

    Scurra , ae, m. 1. A city buffoon, droll, jester (usually in the suite of wealthy persons, and accordingly a kind of parasite;
    syn.: -Of the clown in a pantomime, Juv. 13, sannio, parasitus)


ALL SUCH SINGER/DANCER/INSTRUMENTALISTS WERE CALLED PARASITES BECAUSE THEY PRODUCED NOTHING OF VALUE AND ATE UP THE WIDOW'S LIVING. CHRIST in the prophets called them robbers and parasites IMPOSED because of sin: they stil are.

When God pours out His WRATH in the Hebrew He sends Jesters and buffons: the Wrath Paul warned about includes the singing, clapping and playing instruments which is God sending you a strong delusion: it is called ORGY.

Sannio , o-nis, m. [sanna] , I. one who makes mimicking grimaces, a buffoon (cf. scurra), Cic. de Or. 2, 61, 251; id. Fam. 9, 16, 10; Amm. 14, 6, 16.

Parasi-tus , i, m., = parasitos, lit. one who eats with another; hence, I. In gen., a guest (pure Lat. conviva): parasiti Jovis, the gods, Varr. ap. Aug. Civ. Dei, 6, 7; App. M. 10, p. 246, 35.--Hence, parasitus Phoebi, a player, actor, Mart. 9, 29, 9.--

II. In partic., in a bad sense, one who, by flattery and buffoonery, manages to live at another's expense, a sponger, toad-eater, parasite (syn. scurra): nos parasiti planius ... Quasi mures semper edimus alienum cibum, etc., Plaut. Capt. 1, 1, 7 ; cf. id. Pers. 1, 3, 3; id. Stich. 2, 1, 42: parasitorum in comoediis assentatio, Cic. Lael. 26, 98 : edaces parasiti, Hor. Ep. 2, 1, 173 ; Juv. 1, 139. --Comically, of a whip: ne ulmos parasitos faciat, that he will make his elm-twigs stick to me like parasites, i. e. give me a sound flogging, Plaut. Ep. 2, 3, 5.--The tutelar deity of parasites was Hercules, Plaut. Curc. 2, 3, 79.


The god of the parasites as the Abomination of Desolation including music and sexuality in the holy places was Hercules or Herakles who introduces sexual perversion. 

Jesus marked the Scribes and Pharisees (rewriting for fun and profit) as hypocrites by pointing to rhetoricians, singers and instrument players. This was a MARK of people who had no intention of teaching the truth and an audience who had no intention of learning "that which has been taught."  Hypocrite firstly points to performance preaching and nextly to CANTUS or singing which is defined as "charming" or "Sorcery" (Re 18).  The sons of the Devil are those who "speak on their own." So, that leaves you out in the heat with the captors having taken you captive and you clap for them all the way and get VIOLENT when people suggest that you have been CULTIFIED.

You do NOT -- even if you could hallucinate singing in School of the Bible with Jesus as teacher -- "sing that which is written with one mind and one mouth" defined as Scripture in Rom 15.  You do not use SPIRIT which is the Word of Christ (John 6:63; col 3).  You do not SPEAK but sing: SPEAK is by definition OPPOSITE to poetry or music which no one ever believed and still do not believe because "people set their lies to melody to deceive the simple."

Both the singing AND melody is IN THE HEART which is the only place God listens--worship IN THE SPIRIT is a place.

That is because singing as in our sense always meant WITCHCRAFT or SORCERY: someone easily slipping lies past your rational or spiritual mind.

Why would an adult even think about the MUSIC word if the president of your company is holding weekly classes to train future executives? 

How come it is this prophesied EXPLOSION OF KNOWLEDGE which has the only generation without out a clue about God and His Word.  It's in the Book so giggle all the way: I dont' get paid either way.  But MOST are about at the "drink the KoolAid" stage.

AmI reading correctly? You are opposed to acapella singing as wel as instrumental music.

Offline Mere Nick

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Re: Instrumental Music in Worship
« Reply #104 on: Thu May 28, 2009 - 07:50:18 »
However, people are correct: God never said Thou shalt not go naked and sing and dance and play with the girls.  . . .

I would get some girls and all of the FEMALE instruments, sing, dance, play and strip off my clothes next Sunday  . . .

Sounds pretty cool to me.

 

     
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