Oak Hills Church (A Church of Christ) - Belief Statement

[notreligus]

http://oakhillschurch.com/beliefs/

"Our salvation is based on what God has done for us through Jesus Christ."

[MeMyself]

what is your feeling on that statement, if I may ask?

[Jaime]

http://oakhillschurch.com/beliefs/

"Our salvation is based on what God has done for us through Jesus Christ."

I wholeheartedly agree with this sentence.

[mommydi]

But if you read the fine print -

salvation is available for any who put their trust in Christ as Savior (Romans 3:23, 6:23; John 3:16). Those trusting Christ should repent of sin, confess their faith, and be baptized (Romans 10:9; Acts 2:38)

Salvation is "available" for those who put their trust in Christ - but they still repent, confess, and be baptized.

I find that term "available" kind of odd, for some reason. I'll have to think about it....
Not to overthink this too much, but I find many progressive cofC's find a more gentler way to restate one must be baptized as part of the salvation process. Some will agree or disagree, but that's just my observation.

[Jaime]

I think "available" is appropriate because salvation is offered to all. Not all will accept it. Personally I believe that confessing, repenting and being baptized comprises the acceptance of and faith response to the free gift we cannot earn.

My progressive cofc congregations' belief statement is almost word for word from Oak Hills. In fact I think we copied most it. I agree with you Mommydi, our statement is somewhat gentler than I prefer.

Here is our church's belief statement (not 100% ratified by Jaime):

http://www.gcrcc.org/core-beliefs

TC has already accused me of attending a Baptist church. 

[Texas Conservative]

I think "available" is appropriate because salvation is offered to all. Not all will accept it. Personally I believe that confessing, repenting and being baptized comprises the acceptance of and faith response to the free gift we cannot earn.

My progressive cofc congregations' belief statement is almost word for word from Oak Hills. In fact I think we copied most it. I agree with you Mommydi, our statement is somewhat gentler than I prefer.

Here is our church's belief statement (not 100% ratified by Jaime):

http://www.gcrcc.org/core-beliefs

TC has already accused me of attending a Baptist church. 

Other than weekly communion, very,  very baptist.

[Texas Conservative]

But if you read the fine print -

salvation is available for any who put their trust in Christ as Savior (Romans 3:23, 6:23; John 3:16). Those trusting Christ should repent of sin, confess their faith, and be baptized (Romans 10:9; Acts 2:38)

Salvation is "available" for those who put their trust in Christ - but they still repent, confess, and be baptized.

I find that term "available" kind of odd, for some reason. I'll have to think about it....
Not to overthink this too much, but I find many progressive cofC's find a more gentler way to restate one must be baptized as part of the salvation process. Some will agree or disagree, but that's just my observation.

I tend to think the way it is stated has a mistaken direction.  The responsibility by Jesus was given to those making disciples to baptize them.  Now, it kinda makes it look like a product brochure.

No one in the 1st century would understand our arguments about must or not.  It was much more Git R Done and move on.  I think the very question of  "must" or "necessary" reeks of individualism on one side and disobedience on the other by pitting doctrines of Christ against each other.

[mommydi]

I tend to think the way it is stated has a mistaken direction.  The responsibility by Jesus was given to those making disciples to baptize them.  Now, it kinda makes it look like a product brochure.

No one in the 1st century would understand our arguments about must or not.  It was much more Git R Done and move on.  I think the very question of  "must" or "necessary" reeks of individualism on one side and disobedience on the other by pitting doctrines of Christ against each other.

I agree. I doubt many in the first century understood and hashed out every nuance pertaining to baptism. Like you say - it was probably more like "Git R Done and move on."

[Jaime]

Jaime agrees.

Who knows where this could lead?!

[Jaime]

There is an interesting video on the link I provided about our church. If you click the history button, it sort of chronicles our congregations transition from a traditional cofc to a progressive cofc.

[Texas Conservative]

There is an interesting video on the link I provided about our church. If you click the history button, it sort of chronicles our congregations transition from a traditional cofc to a progressive cofc.

Where is the video for being baptist?

[Jaime]

Watch it and see what you think. It describes some of the mindset the church had to move towards being known as more of an ecumenical group rather than a sectarian group.

[Snargles]

Throughout much of CoC history a "belief statement" would have been considered a creed and therefore a denominational innovation. "No creed but the Bible" we used to say.

[Mere Nick]

We should stick to what was asked of people back in the day before they were baptized, such as the Ethiopian.  While the statement may be true, it really only reflects the beliefs of the one who wrote it at the time it was written and those who later said they believed it, too. 

[4WD]

Throughout much of CoC history a "belief statement" would have been considered a creed and therefore a denominational innovation. "No creed but the Bible" we used to say.

Snargles, I don't think that is quite true.  A creed was usually considered to a statement of belief established and authorized by the denominational hierarchy.  What a given congregation might say publicly about what they believe is not typically considered a creed.

And while we might put out a statement on a website about what we believe, our motto is still "No creed but the Bible".

[Jaime]

Throughout much of CoC history a "belief statement" would have been considered a creed and therefore a denominational innovation. "No creed but the Bible" we used to say.

I don't necessarily think a belief statement is a creed, but in the age of websites, it is an attempt to show outsiders exactly what the congregation believes about some of the bigger questions that people may have. Push come to shove, most if not all congregations of every flavor would claim No creed but the Bible. The old "Speak where the Bible speaks and silence where the Bible is silent", might be too general and too rigid to some for a cursory look see. Just my thoughts.

[Mere Nick]

Jaime, the statement doesn't tell what the congregation believes.  It tells what the one who wrote it and the ones who approved its dissemination believed at the time it was distributed.  The one from your congregation doesn't tell me what you believe.  You tell me what you believe.  To paraphrase Campbell, such statements might be true, but should not be the least bit binding upon you or anyone else unless you see it for yourself in the scriptures.  There's lots of things in these statements that I bet that lots of Christians, especially young and/or new Christians haven't even considered.   

[Jaime]

As I said Nick, I personally believe those belief statements are designed to soften some of the stances that they fear might serve to run off folks before they give such a congregation a chance. I think there thought is let's get 'em in here because if we don't there is no hope that we might affect their walk anyway. It's all marketing in the day of the internet and trying to not offend right off the bat (which can happen with a sof cofc based on people's past perceptions of such). It might seem dishonest, but in our congregation, I really believe the list reflects the predominant beliefs. Granted, the beliefs in our congregation are not homogenous and probably few congregations are if any. There are a few things I disagree with, but if I went somewhere else, there would be many more things I would disagree with. My list of "essentials" has definitely shrunk over the years.

[Snargles]

If the elders of my congregation made up a Belief Statement it would include: No IM, no speaking women, we are the only ones going to heaven, no dancing, no clapping, no drinking, no interaction with the denoms, we aren't a denom, no action of the HS outside the word, and we were founded in AD 33. As Nick noted, that wouldn't tell what the congregation believes, it is what our leaders think we should believe.

[4WD]

If the elders of my congregation made up a Belief Statement it would include: No IM, no speaking women, we are the only ones going to heaven, no dancing, no clapping, no drinking, no interaction with the denoms, we aren't a denom, no action of the HS outside the word, and we were founded in AD 33. As Nick noted, that wouldn't tell what the congregation believes, it is what our leaders think we should believe.

And you still attend that congregation      

[Snargles]

4WD: "And you still attend that congregation       "

It took me a long time to work through this but I came to realize that although the universal church is perfect, the local congregations are made up of imperfect people who have imperfect beliefs and expectations. I can be a part of the body of Christ even though I disagree with my local leaders. If there was a more progressive congregation within reasonable driving distance I would go there but driving an hour to get to Sunday morning services isn't the answer because we all need to interact with fellow Christians on a regular basis and I can't drive an hour to go to Bible classes, work days and get togethers. Some would suggest a house church but a group of 10 people, if I could find that many in this conservative part of the county, couldn't have much impact on a community and would come across as a collection of cranks who can't fit in a regular church. I soldier on, hoping for change.

[Jaime]

Snargles, I told this story several years ago here, but I will tell it again because I think it is relevant.

A few years ago when I was leasing oil and gas rights from some farmers and ranchers in the Texas panhandle, I came to a farmer's house one evening and sat down and conducted my business and later we had a good talk about Spiritual things. Come to find out, Charlie was an ex-cofc preacher. He told me he had attended some of my congregation's special events over the years back in Midland. He said he really enjoyed being there with some open minded folks. I had also told him that I really miss my congregation's weekly prayer breakfasts/bible studies as well as being with my 200 or so brothers in a multi-denominational city wide Bible study on Monday nights called Community Bible Study. He invited me to a local prayer breakfast/Bible study in the Baptist church on Wednesday morning in a town about 30 miles away. Wednesday morning about 6:30 I showed up and met all the really great guys from different denominations but mostly Methodists and Baptists, and saw Charlie again. We had a great country breakfast and then we grabbed our Bibles and were about to begin the Bible study. I looked up and lo and behold Charlie was standing at the front of the class with a podium in front of him. He and I were the lone cofc-ers in the group as I later found out. I was really glad to see such a great spirit in the room among men from various church backgrounds. We were one in Christ in that hour. To Notreligious' astonishment, Charlie never mentioned baptism. The next day, I went to the courthouse to do some research and I saw the county clerk and her assistant who were both from a very conservative cofc and they knew that I was also cofc. I gleefully told them about my experiences the previous morning at the Baptist church and that I was so excited to see that Charlie ______ was leading the lesson! They both grimaced and glared at me saying, "I can't believe Charlie would do such a thing." I snapped back at them, "What in the world.......? What greater opportunity than a cofc preacher leading a Bible Study in a room of 45 or 50 Methodist and Baptist men?!" Needless to say they weren't amused.  Charlie had gone off the reservation, apparently.

[Mere Nick]

That is horrible that he would do such a thing, Jaime.  Jesus would never talk to anyone who didn't see things just like he did.  Oh, wait, never mind.

[Kenneth Sublett]

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith;
        and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:1 And YOU hath he QUICKENED, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

PARALLEL:
Col. 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Col. 2:13  And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he QUICKENED together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Forgiveness of sins gives one A holy spirit. or A good conscience.

Saved or made Safe from What?

The starry host was "Sabazianism" and being a goyim or national religion was called "demonism".  God turned the people over to worship the starry host because of idolatry at Mount Sinai which was beyond redemption

Saved or Kept Safe by Grace through faith FROM WHAT.

Ephesians 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this WORLD,
        according to the prince of the power of the air,
        the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

The World or Kosmos is defined as the ecumenical or the kingdom of the Devil. Jesus died for everyone but He does not pray for the WORLD. His is the WAY (Road, Pattern) called a SECT and almost no one finds their way through the narrow gate.

Kosmos , ho,  natgural, II.rnament, decoration, esp. of women; “hieros k.” OGI90.40 (Rosetta, ii B. C.): pl., ornaments, A.Ag.1271; “hoi peri to sōma k.” Isoc.2.32: metaph., of ornaments of speech, such as epithets, Id.9.9 (pl.), Arist.Rh.1408a14, Po.1457b2, 1458a33; hadumelē k. keladein to sing sweet songs of praise, Pi.O.11 (10).13 (s.v.l.).

Hēdu^-melēs , Dor. had- , Aeol. ad- , es, A. sweet-singing, “khelidoi” Anacr.67, cf. Sapph.122（Comp.), Pi.N.2.25; sweet-sounding, “xoana” S.Fr.238, etc.: poet. fem., “hēdumeleia surigx” Nonn.D.29.287.

Surigx , iggos, hē, A. shepherd's pipe, Panspipe, “aulōn suriggōn t' enopē” Il.10.13; “nomēes LAWS terpomenoi surigxi” 18.526; “suriggōn enopē” h.Merc.512; “hupo ligurōn suriggōn hiesan audēn” Hes.Sc.278; “ou molpan suriggos ekhōn” S.Ph.213 (lyr.); kalaminē s. Ar.Fr.719; “kat' agrous tois nomeusi surigx an tis eiē” Pl.R.399d.
2. cat-call, whistle, hiss, as in theatres, Id.Lg.700c; cf. “surizō” 11.2, surigmos:—the last part of the nomos Puthikos was called surigges, prob. because it imitated the dying hisses of the serpent Pytho, Str.9.3.10.
3. mouthpiece of the aulos,

[Kenneth Sublett]

MOMMIDI: No one in the 1st century would understand our arguments about must or not.  It was much more Git R Done and move on.  I think the very question of  "must" or "necessary" reeks of individualism on one side and disobedience on the other by pitting doctrines of Christ against each other."

THAT'S TRUE AND WE NEED TO UNDERSTAND WHY THIS IS A MARK OF THE LITTLE FLOCK OF LOST SPIRITS JESUS WAS SENT TO RESCUE. Many [most] are invited but FEW [mikros] are chosen

Baptism is FOR or in order that Remission of Sins. 

THEY WILL JUST DO IT BECAUSE THEY RECOGNIZE THE SIGN:
Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his WORD were baptized: and the same day there were ADDED UNTO THEM about three thousand souls.
Acts 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the CHURCH daily such as should be saved.
ASV the Lord added 19to them day by day those that 20were saved.

God as WORD or LIGHT or SPIRIT is made known by Jesus of Nazareth: the Logos is the REGULATIVE PRINCIPLE which is God's principle for not going beyond that which is written.

Baptism is the way to call upon God to request A good conscience or A holy spirit. That is why Peter says that BAPTISM SAVES.

Mark 16 in prophecy by the Spirit OF Christ

Is. 1:16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
Is. 1:17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
Is. 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
Is. 1:19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
Is. 1:20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it

[notreligus]

Piney.Com nonsense.   

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/what-on-earth-is-piney-com/

[Kenneth Sublett]

A Church of Christ is built upon or EDUCATED by the Prophets and Apostles: God breathed (spirit) and the prophets by the Spirit OF Christ defined the Church of Christ both inclusively and exclusively.

It is clear that almost no one posing as a teacher has ever read the prophets or the story line of the Jewish terminal fall from grace.

This is the NONESENSE I just posted which is the Spirit OF Christ speaking.  Blame God!!

Is. 1:16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
Is. 1:17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
Is. 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.  [This gives one A holy spirit]
Is. 1:19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
Is. 1:20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it

BELIEF or Faith or PISTIS includes to COMPLY

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world,
        and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mark 16:16 He that believeth [compies] and is baptized shall be saved;
        but he that believeth not [will not comply] shall be damned.

g4100.  pisteuo, pist-yoo´-o; from 4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well-being to Christ): — believe(-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.
2. comply, hōs oukh hupeixōn oude pisteusōn legeis; S.OT625, cf. 646 ;
Opposite to apisteō, Id.Tr.1228

APISTOS doesn't mean "just don't yet believe."  refuse to comply, disbelieve, distrust, “was distrusted, i.e. no one could be sure of knowing,  apeitheō, disobey to be faithless 

Those who refuse or DISPUTE the Prophecy by the Spirit and the Command of Jesus are OF THE WORLD and are not one of the Lost Sheep or spirits Jesus was sent to GO SEEK and rescue form the world. The World is the Kosmos or the ECUMENICAL or the kingdom of the Devil.  Jesus doesn't PRAY for those of the WORLD or who are FROM BELOW.

1Pet. 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

That's why they love to call Piney INSANE. I would worry if it were otherwise.

[notreligus]

A Church of Christ is built upon or EDUCATED by the Prophets and Apostles: God breathed (spirit) and the prophets by the Spirit OF Christ defined the Church of Christ both inclusively and exclusively.

It is clear that almost no one posing as a teacher has ever read the prophets or the story line of the Jewish terminal fall from grace.

This is the NONESENSE I just posted which is the Spirit OF Christ speaking.  Blame God!!

Is. 1:16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
Is. 1:17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
Is. 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.  [This gives one A holy spirit]
Is. 1:19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
Is. 1:20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it

BELIEF or Faith or PISTIS includes to COMPLY

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world,
        and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mark 16:16 He that believeth [compies] and is baptized shall be saved;
        but he that believeth not [will not comply] shall be damned.

g4100.  pisteuo, pist-yoo´-o; from 4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well-being to Christ): — believe(-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.
2. comply, hōs oukh hupeixōn oude pisteusōn legeis; S.OT625, cf. 646 ;
Opposite to apisteō, Id.Tr.1228

APISTOS doesn't mean "just don't yet believe."  refuse to comply, disbelieve, distrust, “was distrusted, i.e. no one could be sure of knowing,  apeitheō, disobey to be faithless 

Those who refuse or DISPUTE the Prophecy by the Spirit and the Command of Jesus are OF THE WORLD and are not one of the Lost Sheep or spirits Jesus was sent to GO SEEK and rescue form the world. The World is the Kosmos or the ECUMENICAL or the kingdom of the Devil.  Jesus doesn't PRAY for those of the WORLD or who are FROM BELOW.

1Pet. 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

That's why they love to call Piney INSANE. I would worry if it were otherwise.

If you knew the source of righteousness you'd find out that you are the one who blasphemes God and His Son.   

I don't condemn you, the Word of God does.  And this is just as Jesus told the Jews in John Chapter Five.

2Cor 5:21  For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

[Kenneth Sublett]

You never get a FREE GIFT unless you accept it.
Jesus could do anything He wished to do:  He wished and commanded that to become a DISCIPLE the first step was to readily obey what the Teacher commands.  He said that those who Believeth Not or Apistos says I WILL NOT COMPLY and they will be damned

Rom. 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom. 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom. 6:3 Know ye not, that SO MANY of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ  [no others]
        were baptized into his death?

Jesus was dead when he went into the tomb.
He came OUT of the tomb alive.
Therefore in this type or "pattern meant to be imitated" Jesus was not alive before he was buried.

Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death:
        that LIKE AS Christ was RAISED up from the dead by the glory of the Father,
        even so we also should walk in newness of LIFE. Rom 6:4

This "baptism" is a LIKENESS of Jesus being PLANTED into the tomb. We are not baptized INTO the holy spirit.

For IF we have been planted together in the likeness (Form) of his death,
        we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Rom 6:5

Know ye not, that to whom ye YIELD yourselves servants to OBEY,
        his servants ye are to whom ye OBEY;
        whether of sin unto death,
        or of OBEDIENCE unto righteousness? Rom 6:16

But God be thanked,
        that ye were the servants of sin,
        but ye have  OBEYED from the heart
        that form [Pattern] of doctrine which was delivered you. Ro.6:17

Being THEN made free from sin,
        ye became the servants of righteousness. Rom 6:18

Rom. 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh:
        for as ye have YIELDED your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity;
        even so now YIELDED your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
Rom. 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin,
        ye were free from righteousness.
Rom. 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed?
        for the end of those things is death.
Rom. 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God,
        ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Rom. 6:23 For the wages of sin is death;
        but the GIFT of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Acts 2 promises us the gift of A holy spirit because baptism is the time and place where we request A good conscience 1 Peter 3:21
No one is said to have sins remitted other than when they OBEY that form or pattern which can be IMITATED.

Heb. 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn,
        which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the SPIRITS of just men made perfect,

Jesus was sent to lost spirits who are IN he World but not OF the world.  There is no point in trying to refute Jesus because,

Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized:
        and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Their spirits are not translated into the heavenly kingdom until the accept the first command of Jesus their rescuer.