one word on restoration

[blituri]

Speaking of KoolAid:

I recently read about a man who had never read the text take all of the "instrument" passages connected to the terminal curse of the sacrificial system and -- ignoring the story line-- said that God COMMANDED instrumental praise and we MUST NOT disobey.

Now, a restored church as a school of the Bible would have 4500 members (claimed to be 6400) Bible literate and have escorted the man out to an institution.  However, it looks like about 3500 of the members -- in the words of Paul --"loved to be fooled."  Now, much later the GROWTH pattern still mostly hoovers below 4,000.

Another man using the same recorded sermons taught the same "black lies" of the "white paper" circulated around.  When he announced "we gonna DRINK it down" 300 of the 900 members immediately or rapidly walked out. That still leaves 600 members who APPLAUDED the deliberate sowing of discord.

That is why Jesus fired the doctors of the Law who take away the key to knowledge and put the WORD in the hands of faithful elders who were commanded to "teach that which has been taught." That was the PATTERN of the Restoration movement but it didn't take long for those Paul insinuated were robbers to restore the old denominational patternism of dominant pastors.

So, "fools love to be fooled" and that is why the Church of Christ as ekklesia will always be invisible and inaudible as the kingdom within where we have to go OUTSIDE the masses to learn of Jesus and suffer the required reproaches.

[ex cathedra]

if you want to 'restore ' the christian faith, then one has to start at the beginning.  they would have to believe:

1. a literal 6 day creation
2. a global flood
3. abraham and descendents existed
4. joseph and the israelites lived in egypt and eventually became slaves
5. that God chose moses, brought the plagues
6. that God had moses lead the people out of egypt on the exodus
7. after 40 years of wandering God brought them into thepromised land,
8. that God chose joshua to lead the conquest
9. that there was a united kingdom lead by saul, david & solomon
10. there was a divided kingdom
11. there was a restoring before a final captivity
12. jesus lived and died and rose again
13. the apostles spread the correct gospel
14. the Bible is infallible and correct evenwhen it comes to women preachers.
15. God's order of things & women's subission to their spouses.
16. Christ returning for His people.
17. heaven, final judgment & hell.

if you do not believe God then why would you call yourself a christian? for then you will be saying that God sinned somewhere and that is just not possible.

the list is not even elementry.

That Jesus rose bodly from the dead .
That Jonah lived in a large fish for 3 days untill that fish spit him up on dry land
that Jesus does not lie about his body and blood being in the sacrament of communion.
That God interveined in that battle IN A MIRACULOUS WAY  and the sun stood still.
that Jesus feed five thousand with a little boy lunch of a  few fish and a little bread ,
that peter was able to walk on water as long as he kept his eyes on Jesus
that every single miracle in the bible is historical fact 
That Gods promises in the sacrament of baptism that he makes in the bible are just as true.
THAT God in a miraculous way allowed the rich man  to see past the void that seperates heaven and hell.
That Jesus blood HAS MADE ATONEMENT NOT JUST FOR YOU AND I BUT THE WHOLE WORLD.
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THAT God is  three person yet one in essance
That God in eternity HAS CHOSEN THOSE WHO WOULD BELIEVE AND BE SAVED AND ITS MENS OWN FAULT IF THEY DO NOT BELIEVE AND ARE LOST.

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 When the opponent in a theological debate said to
Luther, “Das reumbt sich nicht,

[Donald Raby]

If it is so easy to spot false gospels why do cultic groups like the Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses have so many members? And why is it so difficult for these people to come out of said cult groups?

I have visited these forums a few times and have followed your studies. I commend you for deep study of historical material.
In answer to your question quoted above: THEY WORK HARD at what they do and persist. That makes them neither right nor wrong. The doctrine they bring is either the doctrine of Christ or is is not. Therein is the need to study and show thyself approved.

This is intended for discussion and not a judgement against Lee. I feel that I can learn and agree with Calvin, Luther, Augustine and Campbell as examples of men who have studied deeply. However I must reject as Campbell did the teaching of total depravity and all that appends to it. In his effort he sought to restore the ancient order, or Go Back to Christ alone. I hesitate to use Sola Christ or all the reformation creedo, but it is a fact that in America some core beliefs are the basis of Restoration Movement. I am a follower of Christ, not Campbell or Stone. I am sure as the discussion on Lunneberg letter on another forum shows that Campbell became overwhelmed with questions and seemed to waffle somewhat. That still is not our final standard.

Christ sent the apostles into the world to preach repentance and remission of sins through the death burial and resurrection of Christ. They left us an inspired message in the New Testament books that we can trust is what they did in obeying the Lord.
Ephesians 4 is a good platform for us to estabish unity and have the same mind  Those seven ones are defined by what the apostles and prophets did and wrote. Therefore if we follow Restorationism we follow men as they have diverged into CoC, Christian Churches, Disciples of Christ and a host of other splinters.. If we follow Christ we will be united by him and kept one by following the faith once delivered for all.  Thank You, Donald Raby

[blituri]

Christ ordained the Qahal, synagogue or church in the wilderness: this was to quarantine the spiritual thread from the sacrificial system after the musical idolatry at Mount Sinai and God turned them over to worship the starry host. That is exactly what happened under the Civil-Military-Clergy complex. Christ speaking only through the prophets for the spiritual thread called them robbers and parasites. That is what God through Samuel promised them when they fired Him and demanded a king like the nations.  Christ said through the prophets that they wanted to worship like the nations and they is what they did.

The synagogue or church in the wilderness was INCLUSIVE of REST (sabbath not saturday), reading and rehearsing the Word of God -- only.  That would be in the heads of any competent elder of small groups.
      Rest in Greek is the word PAUO almost totally dedicated to mean STOP the speaking, singing, playing
      and whatever Jesus called laded burden or "spiritual anxiety created by religious rituals" and Paul called
      self-pleasure which in both Greek and Latin radically outlaws all of the performing or hypocritic arts
      and crafts.  That will be PERFECTLY CLEAR if you grasp that what we call church (in error) was a
      SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE--only.

That was EXCLUSIVE of vocal or instrumental rejoicing which is something even Simple Simon would not do when God's Word (only) was being taught.

That synagogue which was ordained by Christ (the Rock, Water, Spirit, Manna etal) was defacto The Church of Christ.

That never changed and in fact quarantined those not of Levi from the sacrificial system quite identical to their old Egyptian or Greek or Canaanite or Babylonianism.  That is why many people including the Greeks were ready for the Gospel:

Acts 15:21 For Moses
       of old time hath
       in every city them
       that preach him,
       being read in the synagogues
       every sabbath day.

That is what Jesus exampled, what he commanded with the word ekklesia (synagogue), what Paul practiced and commanded and what the historic church practiced. To that Christ ordained, Paul explained and the church maintained the Lord's Supper as an act of evangelism.

No one thought of singing as an ACT you do in what the Campbell's called A School of Christ until  the year 373 when the Syriac people introduced singing in the West and split the church never to be restored as the Catholic church.

No one thought at preaching was an ACT until about the same time: preacing and music says the Catholics was added "because it was common to all pagan sects."

There was no command or role requiring funding and so there was no law of tithing or law of giving. The historic record is that "those who prospered during the week might give something to the DESTITUTE but only if willing."

So, you CAN restore the Church of Christ which began as recorded in the wilderness.

Since the command was to READ and the word SPEAK is defined to EXCLUDE poetry or music, and since the Campbell part of the restoration movement just moving John Calvin's Restoration movement forward a bit, you can define church as A SCHOOL OF CHRIST and you can define worship as READING AND MUSING the Word  of God (only).  You observe the Lord's Supper defined as an act of evangelism and you DISmiss yourselves as you were commanded to ASSEMBLE yourselves with not role for an assembler.

As the church in the wilderness was a Set Time Place, it continued as the synagogue (which allowed no preaching or singing) and the ekklesia (not church) was also a Set Time Place so that everyone knew when and where to assemble.  Based on the Ekklesia, there was an CONTACT MAN elected for the year who got expenses paid.  When Paul addressed letters the carrier knew the elder who received correspondence.

The PURPOSE DRIVING the Church was to READ or SPEAK "that which is written" or the elders taught "that which had been taught." No one was given the right or need to "private interprete" which means to FURTHER EXPOUND.  A Jesus or a Josephus would be a competent Bible scholar by the age of 12 or 14 and having read the text "as it was written" they would know the context most don't know whatever the education.

If you read that you would understand that the Bible is not a history of the universe but a history of the Hebrew people: The first five books were written AFTER the fall from grace doing musical idolatry. It is an inverted version of the legends they had always studied and to describe the BABYLONIANISM they were doomed to return too--BECAUSE of musical idolatry at Mount Sinai which gave The Book of The Covenant of Grace the back of their hand. Paul told the Jews in Corinth that they had always been blind and would not be able to read BLACK text on BROWN paper until they turned or converted to Christ which is equated to what happens in baptism.

Everyone in an early restoration church could meet for BIBLE STUDY and discuss their DIVERSITIES elsewhere (Paul excluded these diversities or doubtful disputations) in Romans 14.

That is just about the way John Calvin defined what he called his Restoration Movement with a pretty dandy paper on adult baptism and bad news for pastor people who didn't have a job.

You DISCUSS the creation account (a spiritual recreation) and do NOT let little Silly Sammy make a GROWTH INDUSTRY out of what day of the week the WHOLE UNIVERS was created.  You can have your own opinion.

[blituri]

I am sure as the discussion on Lunneberg letter on another forum shows that Campbell became overwhelmed with questions and seemed to waffle somewhat. That still is not our final standard.

In the Lunenburg correspondence Campbell would rather have an unbaptized honest man as a frfiend than a baptized sinner. So would we all.

Since He thought of himself as a Christian when he was a Presbyterian he allowed some slack for people who were badly informed but had had no opportunity to learn better.

However, he cut no slack for anyone who could rightly have known about baptism if he really wanted to be a Christian.  He considered those beyond the pale who REFUSED to teach baptism on the basis that they MIGHT be Christians (with a Capital "C").

If there were CHRISTIANS (baptized) in the SECTS he said that they SHOULD COME OUT OF BABYLON.

The Church would be a better place if we just READ the letters and follow up where the Baptists gloated that HAD old Campbell on their side. That was when he defined the difference between one who lived by christian principles and a CHRISTIAN who must have been baptized.  No one can be mistaken about baptism if they just READ THE TEXT.  In no sense did Campbell's tollerance mean that he FELLOWSHIPPED in the sense of meeting with, endoring and supporting them.  He thought that people were pretty off centered for thinking that he had gone to all of the trouble if he believed that the SECTS were already saved. Campbell would preach anywher: but not until the organ and organist was "sat down."

That's why church should be a place of READING and DISCUSSION and not a place for someone to drag in the latest scholarly work.  It will all sort itself out IF you do not chain the Bible to the pulpit.

The historic Church of Christ has remained fairly faithful to being a WORD CENTERED fellowship until the TURF BATTLERS took over.

[Lee Freeman]

Campbell allowed for a person who had mistaken the outward baptism to posesses the inward, so that, he would much rather fellowship a non-sectarian paido-baptist than a sectarian immersionist any day of the week. He stated that he did indeed, find true Christians scattered amongst all the sects, yet called for them to come out of them and  be "Christians only." Campbell had been convinced that the unity of the Church would speed the evangelization of the world, which itself would hasten the advent of the millennium (Campbell was postmillennial while Stone, Scott, Lipscomb, Harding, etc. were premil.). Of course Campbell was disappointed that it didn't work out that way. He deeply lamented the sectarian spirit of many of his own followers, lamenting in the 1841 Millennial Harbinger that his brethren had some two dozen newspapers and from many of them, it was difficult to ascertain what the aims and goals of the Movement were.

The Lunenburg Letter was occasioned, possibly by the controversy started by Dr. John Thomas, over whether Baptist baptisms or other immersions done without knowledge of or reference to, remission of sins, wwere valid. Thomas said No, and urged rebaptism, while Campbell said Yes, citing his own baptism as an example. He and several members of his family had been immersed by Baptist Elder Matthias Luce in 1812 without any reference to remission of sins. So if such baptisms were invalid, so was Campbell's. Yet Campbell never felt it necessary to be rebaptized.

But both Thomas and Alexander Campbell deeply regretted their estrangement with their Baptist brethren (their words). As late as 1866, when Campbell was on his deathbed, he was praying for an official union with the Christians/Disciples and the Baptists of that part of Virginia. The Campbells originally intended to remain afiliated with the Baptists so long as they were free to study and preach their beliefs. They eventually felt compelled to separate from the Baptists when they were pressed to adopt the Philadelphia Confession of faith.

Pax.

Lee.

[Johnb]

Quote Lee  The problem is that according to Paul the devil masquerades as an angel of light, so its difficult sometimes, esp. for spiritually immature people, to know the difference. In real life its not as simple as quoting a Bible verse at people and making their troubles disappear. Many deceivers and false teachers are really good at spinning their warped doctrines to make them seem orthodox. I think with maturity comes (or should come) better discernment.

I certainly understand how people can and have, and continue to be wounded by organized religion. To a large extent its our own fault that people get turned off by what we're offering. The "organized" church does have a habit of continually squabbling and fighting among itself and of shooting its wounded. But as you say the answer isn't throwing out the Bible, or theology, or structure and discipline. The answer is for Christians to be more Christ-like, stop fighting all the time, and truly be the family of God.


Pure wisdom Lee.  Amen! and thanks.

[lancelot]

if you want to 'restore ' the christian faith, then one has to start at the beginning.  they would have to believe:

1. a literal 6 day creation
2. a global flood
3. abraham and descendents existed
4. joseph and the israelites lived in egypt and eventually became slaves
5. that God chose moses, brought the plagues
6. that God had moses lead the people out of egypt on the exodus
7. after 40 years of wandering God brought them into thepromised land,
8. that God chose joshua to lead the conquest
9. that there was a united kingdom lead by saul, david & solomon
10. there was a divided kingdom
11. there was a restoring before a final captivity
12. jesus lived and died and rose again
13. the apostles spread the correct gospel
14. the Bible is infallible and correct evenwhen it comes to women preachers.
15. God's order of things & women's subission to their spouses.
16. Christ returning for His people.
17. heaven, final judgment & hell.

if you do not believe God then why would you call yourself a christian? for then you will be saying that God sinned somewhere and that is just not possible.

I don't see any problems with that.

Lancelot