one word on restoration

[archaeologist2]

if you want to 'restore ' the christian faith, then one has to start at the beginning.  they would have to believe:

1. a literal 6 day creation
2. a global flood
3. abraham and descendents existed
4. joseph and the israelites lived in egypt and eventually became slaves
5. that God chose moses, brought the plagues
6. that God had moses lead the people out of egypt on the exodus
7. after 40 years of wandering God brought them into thepromised land,
8. that God chose joshua to lead the conquest
9. that there was a united kingdom lead by saul, david & solomon
10. there was a divided kingdom
11. there was a restoring before a final captivity
12. jesus lived and died and rose again
13. the apostles spread the correct gospel
14. the Bible is infallible and correct evenwhen it comes to women preachers.
15. God's order of things & women's subission to their spouses.
16. Christ returning for His people.
17. heaven, final judgment & hell.

if you do not believe God then why would you call yourself a christian? for then you will be saying that God sinned somewhere and that is just not possible.

[JERRY C]

MSWord counted two hundred and "one word"s??

 

[Charles Sloan]

You lose a great deal on points 1 and 2.

[archaeologist2]

MSWord counted two hundred and "one word"s??

there is always one in a crowd...

You lose a great deal on points 1 and 2.

no i do not lose, those who do not believe lose.

--------------------------------------------------

a second word, there are many vulnerable people out there who have been hurt by the 'organized' church and because of that they are searching.  if one is going to try to 'restore' christinaity, then they need to walk with God and not with their own desires or what they want to believe.

restoration is open to great deception by the devil because people are rejecting beliefs, and rules found in the organized church.  such acts, allow for lies to enter into aperson's belief system because they cannot accept what the Bible says. they want something that tells them what they want to hear and not the truth.

to restore the church one has to do it God's way, not their own and it takes much soul searching and to already have the truth before one can even hope to begin.  then they must wait for the guidance of the Holy Spirit or it is all for naught.  one cannot just arbitrarily say the translations, the organized church is wrong without having God direct them.

even then they could be in a position similar to joseph smith and mohammad who claimed angels told them to start a new church/religion. then they would be tools of the devil not God.  one cannot dismiss the influence or the work of the evil one for thenthey areripe for deception and in being led astray.

also, one cannot use their hurts, their anger, their hatred etc. to start a new church, for such things will allow the wrong influence and God did not say to use those items to find the truth.  one has to remain with what the Bible says to get what God wants, which means using honesty ndother such characteristics that are of God.

one cannot use misguided interpretations or misapplied interpretations to guide them for then again, they would be wrong and opening the door for satan to work and destroy  people's faith.

one cannot change God's word nor accept those who do nor can they place science or archaeology, etc.,  above what God says for then they are not of God and call Him a liar.  if the so do then God is obviously not with them and their efforts and beliefs are in vain as they raise fallible, secular fields higher than Him and that is sin.

if one says they believe God then they must believe Him despite what the world says.  so the task of restoration is not done in structure but in belief.

[Charles Sloan]

You lose a great deal on points 1 and 2.

no i do not lose, those who do not believe lose.

What do they lose exactly?

[Lee Freeman]

When Alexander Campbell (one of the "co-founders" of the 19th century Stone-Campbell Reformation, often popularly referred to as the "Restoration Movement" and the subject of this part of the Theology Forum) claimed to be "restoring" NT Christianity what he meant was a restoration of certain items of church worship/teaching/order that he believed had been negelected in the 1800 years since the church was founded, what he termed the "ancient order." Hence his 1824/1825 Christian Baptist series A Restoration of the Ancient Order of Things. Campbell's idea was that these teachings would become self-evident through an honest examination of the scriptures by any reasonably intelligent, honest person; if everyone adapted this restrored "ancient order," it would go a long way towards facilitating the unity of a divided church, which in turn would facilitate the spread of the gospel, which would itself facilitate the coming of the millennium (Campbell was a post-millennialist). However, even though believing these items were self-evident, he observed that not everyone agreed with him, hence he refused to be dogmatic over the exact particulars of his ancient order, and when he observed that people weren't signing onboard for his restorastionist platform in droves and that many of his disciples were making the ancient order into a test of fellowship and the end of his efforts, rather than a means to Christian unity, he adjusted his thinking somewhat, writing and speaking more about a "catholic" (universal) unity based upon those core doctrines all orthodox Protestant sects already held in common, the "seven ones" of Ephesians 4.

Pax.

[blituri]

The gospel: come to me all ye that labor and are heavy laden and I will give you rest  and "come learn of me."

The ekklesia does not originate anything: it hears evidence, debates or discusses it and reaches a conclusion. It like the Greek synagogue is a "word only" assembly for education.

Like the synagogue the syllagosmus meant:

To collect or assemble the people,
Hear the evidence
And then collect or assemble the thoughts of that presented evidence.

Paul's assembly or gathering words are always forms of "synagobue" which was devoted to a systematic reading of the Word from end to end and commentary was to explain any unclear doctrine and admonish everyone to obey "that read portion." That is exactly what Paul commanded Timothy and what the historic church obeyed before the first east-west split over introducing the ACT of singing. That was about the same time that "preaching" as in violating Peter's law against "private interpretation" which means "further expounding" by embellishing.

Because the Bible is a library and synagogue or ekklesia is "a school of the Bible. and we are DISCIPLES and Christianity is a discipline, the members do not have the standing to pass judgment but to read and discuss it. Like much ancient education, great EPICS (never lyrics) were read or recited because they had some redeeming value in inculcating values.

THE LADED BURDEN Jesus died to remove along with the Burden Laders is explained as:

D.5.4  Demosthenes [5] While I am well aware, Athenians, that to talk in this assembly about oneself and one's own speeches is a very profitable practice, if one has the necessary effrontery, I feel that it is so vulgar and so offensive that, though I see the necessity, I shrink from it. I believe, however, that you will form a better judgement of what I am going to propose, if I remind you of a few things that I have said on former occasions.

Sermonizing still makes me cringe.

[Barabbas]

Great  - another list.  It sure was easier when I only had to remember the "5 steps".

[archaeologist2]

a third word on this topic:

people need to sek out the source of their rejection of things of God. If it is of God then one needs to apply it properly without condemnation, without anger, without sin.  if it is not of God then one has to do spiritual warfare to get right with God and remove the evil influences that are deceiving you.

if you truly love God you would not be looking to the secular world for your answers or spiritual guidance.  the Bible is very clear about how the unbelievers cannot grasp biblical truths.

consider the source, is a good watchword to help guide one in knowing if they are listening to the truth from God or deception from the devil.  anyone who tells you something different than what Jesus and the apostles have said--do not listen and Jesus knows that the devil is alive and working in the world, so YOU must take that fact into consideration.

it does no good to throw all of the Bible and Jesus out just because an 'organized' church does things different than the world. the world does not want God's ways thus they are going to look for any alternative they can , package it to  look nice and appealing thn promote it as the next best thing.

the world is never right and if one feels attracted to their ways then it is not the organized church with the problem but you and you need to deal with it with God's help.

[Lee Freeman]

The problem is that according to Paul the devil masquerades as an angel of light, so its difficult sometimes, esp. for spiritually immature people, to know the difference. In real life its not as simple as quoting a Bible verse at people and making their troubles disappear. Many deceivers and false teachers are really good at spinning their warped doctrines to make them seem orthodox. I think with maturity comes (or should come) better discernment.

I certainly understand how people can and have, and continue to be wounded by organized religion. To a large extent its our own fault that people get turned off by what we're offering. The "organized" church does have a habit of continually squabbling and fighting among itself and of shooting its wounded. But as you say the answer isn't throwing out the Bible, or theology, or structure and discipline. The answer is for Christians to be more Christ-like, stop fighting all the time, and truly be the family of God.

Pax.

[zoonance]

You lose a great deal on points 1 and 2.

That pesky evidence again.

[archaeologist2]

The problem is that according to Paul the devil masquerades as an angel of light, so its difficult sometimes, esp. for spiritually immature people, to know the difference

criteria are found in the Bible that tells a believer who is of God and who isn't.

Many deceivers and false teachers are really good at spinning their warped doctrines to make them seem orthodox. I think with maturity comes (or should come) better discernment.

'if the preach any other gospel...'  it is not too hard to tell.

I certainly understand how people can and have, and continue to be wounded by organized religion. To a large extent its our own fault that people get turned off by what we're offering. The "organized" church does have a habit of continually squabbling and fighting among itself and of shooting its wounded.

at least you recognize one of the problems.  the trouble is everybody is trying to hard to be spiritual or to please God that they forget how they are to act.

[archaeologist2]

That pesky evidence again.

that is why one has to use 'faith'.  'without faith you cannot please God'.

[Charles Sloan]

You lose a great deal on points 1 and 2.

That pesky evidence again.

I have seen you snipe this a number of times, what evidence are you referring to exactly?

[Lee Freeman]

The problem is that according to Paul the devil masquerades as an angel of light, so its difficult sometimes, esp. for spiritually immature people, to know the difference

criteria are found in the Bible that tells a believer who is of God and who isn't.

Many deceivers and false teachers are really good at spinning their warped doctrines to make them seem orthodox. I think with maturity comes (or should come) better discernment.

'if the preach any other gospel...'  it is not too hard to tell.

I certainly understand how people can and have, and continue to be wounded by organized religion. To a large extent its our own fault that people get turned off by what we're offering. The "organized" church does have a habit of continually squabbling and fighting among itself and of shooting its wounded.

at least you recognize one of the problems.  the trouble is everybody is trying to hard to be spiritual or to please God that they forget how they are to act.

If it is so easy to spot false gospels why do cultic groups like the Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses have so many members? And why is it so difficult for these people to come out of said cult groups?

I would say that's is easy for some people to spot a false gospel, but not others. Take the Judaizers in Galatia, for example. Or the heresy that carried away the Colossian church. Maybe it has something to do with spiritual maturity and discernment. Plus I wouldn't underestimate the charisma of the Joseph Smiths, David Khoreshes and Jim Joneses of the world, that can entice and persuade otherwise smart, savvy people into joining their cults. To me, looking back, its obvious that the Peoples' Temple was a cult and Jim Jones was insane, yet 900 plus people at the time either didn't pick up on that, or only did so too late to escape the poisoned Kool-aid.

Pax.