Re-Baptism, Knowledge of Remission of Sins Necessary?, Etc.

[Jaime]

coc does not place so much emphasis on baptism that it overrides heart changing faith or repentance.  It does place so much emphasis on baptism because so many refute its association with heart changing faith and repentance.  Overtime, the desire to prove a point has driven the emphasis in teaching but not at the expense of faith and repentance.   I am sure that there may be exceptions as there are always the exceptions in every broad brush paintings.

Some do, some don't.  It isn't a monolithic fellowship.

I agree with Zoo on this. Sometimes the detractors of scriptural baptism are so adamant, it seems we, (the cofc) have lost our focus. It seems to us that others were unduly deleting an important part of the whole process. In our aggressive defense of baptism, it appeared that's all we were concerned about. To us, leaving out baptism as part of the plan of salvation would be like leaving out faith, or confession, or repentence.

People mistook our zeal as thinking faith was secondary to baptism. No cofc person I know of thinks that. Baptism is important to our total FAITH response, but does not minimize faith. I can understand the rub though.

Because no person you know of thinks that doesn't mean there aren't some.  I know personally of CofC folks who put baptism as equal to faith.

I don't doubt that you do. It has just been my experience that sometimes non-cofc folks misunderstand what they think they know about cofc folks; however, I do know that you have some interesting personal experiences in that regard.

[HRoberson]

I have a question that I do not really know how to answer to where it satisfies everyone so I will ask it here and maybe someone can give a satisfactory answer that all can accept.

Lets say everyone agrees that Christ through his Apostles commanded everyone to be baptized. The question is how can one say that it is not a salvation issue regardless of the belief of just what it entails.
 
If Christ said that we are to if we do not is our faith where it should be? If we do not would it not be considered rebellion against Christ will?

It seems to me that regardless of what we think baptism is or for or whatever the simple fact that Christ said to do it would make it a salvation issue would it not?

If Christ commanded everyone to be baptized, then yes.

The question to me seems to be whether the practice is a local Jewish practice, or something necessary for every non-Jew to do.

Acts 2:39 says "The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call."

It seems to me that if someone reads the first gospel and at the end sees Jesus saying for folks to get baptized, then it seems getting baptized for the simple reason Jesus said so is a faithful response.  But then, I've had folks, maybe some like the folks Gary knows, who figure that still ain't good enough.  There does seem to be a very vocal (probably) minority that isn't ever satisfied unless you are in total agreement with them on all things, and then if you are they figure you're trying to pull something.

I don't know why someone, having been recently convinced of Gospel's truth and being urged to be baptized, would not be. I suppose that happens.

On the other hand, it is the promise that is for all people, not necessarily a Jewish ritual cleansing.

It is more difficult to get around the Great Commission where disciples are told to go baptize people in response to those people's conviction by the Gospel. The question remains though, whether in absolute terms, a Jewish rite was intended to be bound on Gentiles.

It does seem instructive though, that early converts, including Gentiles, were baptized.

[Mere Nick]

It is more difficult to get around the Great Commission where disciples are told to go baptize people in response to those people's conviction by the Gospel. The question remains though, whether in absolute terms, a Jewish rite was intended to be bound on Gentiles.

It does seem instructive though, that early converts, including Gentiles, were baptized.

Yes they were.  And baptism is certainly seems a prefered rite, imo, to having some dude take something sharp to the tallywacker.

[yogi bear]

OK this thread has brought up another question I have that I would like to see answered.

I keep reading wording such as "not necessarily a Jewish ritual cleansing.

When I see the bold part above it says to me that we think that the Jews was the one to dream up this but when I read the word of God it screams out that it was God that planned this.

Just what is it that is being said? Are we trying to give the Jews credit for baptism or what are we saying when we word it like above.

[HRoberson]

Well, since I said it, let me explain what I meant.

It is quite possible that God uses things that make sense to us, to make his points.

The Jews developed a ritual of washing themselves before going to Temple, or synagogue, as a sign of repentance and becoming clean before entering the presence of God.

This ritual cleansing - in hewn tubs large enough to wade into - was not commanded by God, but developed over time. It became to be a normative behavior for Jews and could very well simply have been incorporated as the expected method of responding to God - for Jews.

Similarly, shepherding isn't a God-demanded behavior, but the stories that Jesus told had quite a bit to do with that way of life. That is so, though, because it was familiar, not because it was God-ordained that they or anyone else should pursue that line of work.

[yogi bear]

OK I see what you are saying but I thought that God started it back in the old covenant even. kinda like if you had defiled your self you had to cleanse your clothes and self before you be part of the tribe. I know I am wording this all wrong and may be way off cue I will have to go back to the old testament and reread it. I do not remember off the top of the head just where i read it so give me some time and I will get back to you on this.

[HRoberson]

OK I see what you are saying but I thought that God started it back in the old covenant even. kinda like if you had defiled your self you had to cleanse your clothes and self before you be part of the tribe. I know I am wording this all wrong and may be way off cue I will have to go back to the old testament and reread it. I do not remember off the top of the head just where i read it so give me some time and I will get back to you on this.

Cleansing is in the Old Testament. Wading into a pool before approaching God isn't.

[yogi bear]

So you are saying that the Jews took the cleansing and transformed it to ritual dipping then God took that and changed it to baptism?

[HRoberson]

So you are saying that the Jews took the cleansing and transformed it to ritual dipping then God took that and changed it to baptism?

I'm saying God incorporated something that made sense to the folks to whom He was talking.

[yogi bear]

Oh I see but how does that line up with he had his plan before they were even in the playing field?

[HRoberson]

Oh I see but how does that line up with he had his plan before they were even in the playing field?

I don't know that I believe that baptism was "in the plan," except perhaps as God may have known that the Jews were going to develop ritual ablution.

[yogi bear]

OK I see but really do not understand. I had always thought God had it all planned out and would have already known that he would use this means to connect us to the cross. I have a lot of learning to do I guess.

[HRoberson]

OK I see but really do not understand. I had always thought God had it all planned out and would have already known that he would use this means to connect us to the cross. I have a lot of learning to do I guess.

I don't buy the entirety of God sees all of history and the future as though it's on video tape that He can look forward and back on whenever He cares to. I have Open Theology leanings and therefore believe that God gets to make stuff up as He goes along.

[yogi bear]

I can relate to that but I thought that I had read that God had known How he was going to redeem man before he even created man. I see somewhat the same line of thinking that you mentioned also but did not think that it was on redemption. I just for some reason had thought that God knew that before hand.

[HRoberson]

I can relate to that but I thought that I had read that God had known How he was going to redeem man before he even created man. I see somewhat the same line of thinking that you mentioned also but did not think that it was on redemption. I just for some reason had thought that God knew that before hand.

God knew He was going to send/come as Jesus.

The specifics of our expected response may be locally determined.