The "Five Steps"

[stevehut]

There is still an ICOC congregation in the area, and I think they've left behind most of the ways of their past, but they still won't have much to do with the other RM congregations.

   ?  What would you have them do differently?

[James.]

It was a statement of the situation, not a recommendation of any particular action. 

[DCR]

I have to admit I have not been blessed to have read this whole thread, (my time is limited here now), but seems like the same ol' thing, where we put our focus, on what "we do" versus, what "God has done".

Why does it have to be one versus the other?  We should focus on what God has done... but not to the exclusion of focusing on what we do.  When I read the teachings of Jesus, the writings of Paul, and other epistles, I actually see a great deal of focus and time spent on what "we do."

More precisely stated, maybe it's not wrong to focus on what we do.  But, maybe at times, we're focusing on the wrong things, in terms of what we do.

[marc]

Our congregation split pretty much because of this.  I think we made the mistake of using some vocabulary that they used and attending some events where they were. We didn't practice any of the "discipling" techniques, but "Crossroads" was a convenient label when we started doing things people weren't comfortable with.  Kind of funny, we were called "liberal" and "Crossroads" at the same time, which is as bizarre and agend-driven as calling someone a "liberal fascist".

Oops.  Forget I said that.  

My impression, though, was that the more "progressive" (or "liberal") churches was where they tended to be.  Of course, what "liberal" meant then is not the same as what "liberal" means now.  But, they targeted churches with youth and/or college-age groups.  Particularly, "youth ministers" were held under the microscope of suspicion.  The "youth minister" was seen as a liberal innovation by some anyway.  And, that added fuel to the fire.

I remember articles about this being posted on the front of church bulletins.

I hadn't seen this, and this is what I'd like to start a new thread about, but when you look at it, the whole discipling movement that overwhelmed us in the seventies was the seed of all of this.  It's interesting that many of the churches that were involved with discipling also emphasized grace (see the Sunset influence, for example), but the campus movement that started in Florida ended up going the other direction.  Both may have had more similar focuses than we realize (I can't say for sure about Crossroads-Boston, but they were appearing on the same venues as the more grace-oriented discipling churches), including the idea that we can know that we're saved--something that was a new concept to many of us from conservative churches--but they ended up approachign it from different angles.

I know our grace focus ended up with the idea that God forgives us even if we don't have a constant prayer on our lips as long as we're "walking in the light".  I'm not sure where the other movement went with this.  Istm that those I knew in the seventies who were influenced by this movement (including the staff at Williamstown School of Preaching) would have agreed with this, but added that walking in the light meant an unwavering focus.  I don't know what direction things went after this became The Boston Movement.

[DCR]

I was baptized in the Los Angeles Church of Christ in October 1990.  Six years ago, (in search of a cheap house and to be near my wife's family) I moved across town to a smaller affiliate.  www.avchurch.org, the site is a work-in-progress.

I have never been a fire-breathing defender of the movement, as I do realize that many of the criticisms are/were valid.  But as a group, we've made some progress in the past few years.

Thank you for clearing this up, steve.  I, like some others, have had some trouble figuring out exactly where you're coming from, up until now... though I can understand a hesitancy in volunteering affiliation with the ICOC.

[marc]

Considering that some of us are even hesitant to use the same language because of having stones thrown at us in the past, yeah, it's understandable.

[Bocephus]

If you guys would become part of Christ's remnant church, The Bible Church, you wouldn't have this problem.

[memmy]

I have to admit I have not been blessed to have read this whole thread, (my time is limited here now), but seems like the same ol' thing, where we put our focus, on what "we do" versus, what "God has done".

Why does it have to be one versus the other?  We should focus on what God has done... but not to the exclusion of focusing on what we do.  When I read the teachings of Jesus, the writings of Paul, and other epistles, I actually see a great deal of focus and time spent on what "we do."

More precisely stated, maybe it's not wrong to focus on what we do.  But, maybe at times, we're focusing on the wrong things, in terms of what we do.

Depends I guess, on how you look at it all.

I believe that what is done in us is not of ourselves but the work of the Holy Spirit working in us, so therefore, He is the one growing us, not what steps we take. Of course we need to be open to follow Him though. By faith in what He has done, in that alone, He can work wonders in our lives.

Again, read Romans 4, please.

Blessings, Memmy

[marc]

If you guys would become part of Christ's remnant church, The Bible Church, you wouldn't have this problem.

Well, sure, if wanted to worship the Bible instead of Christ!  What version of Bible Church are you, anyway?  KJV?  NIV?  Amplified? Geneva?  

[DCR]

I have to admit I have not been blessed to have read this whole thread, (my time is limited here now), but seems like the same ol' thing, where we put our focus, on what "we do" versus, what "God has done".

Why does it have to be one versus the other?  We should focus on what God has done... but not to the exclusion of focusing on what we do.  When I read the teachings of Jesus, the writings of Paul, and other epistles, I actually see a great deal of focus and time spent on what "we do."

More precisely stated, maybe it's not wrong to focus on what we do.  But, maybe at times, we're focusing on the wrong things, in terms of what we do.

Depends I guess, on how you look at it all.

I believe that what is done in us is not of ourselves but the work of the Holy Spirit working in us, so therefore, He is the one growing us, not what steps we take. Of course we need to be open to follow Him though. By faith in what He has done, in that alone, He can work wonders in our lives.

Again, read Romans 4, please.

Blessings, Memmy

And, I have also been critical of the concept of "steps" in this thread.

By the way, given you haven't read the whole thread, I hope you haven't judged the tenor or thinking of people based on a few posts.  The initial posts on the thread were actually split from another thread.  And, my first post on the thread is actually somewhat tongue-in-cheek (as evidenced by the smiley, I hope) just to stimulate some thoughts/points for discussion.

In this thread, we've looked at the origin of the "five step plan" and have discussed some pros and cons of it... as well as how it was originally intended versus how people have gone off track with it.  There's nothing wrong with doing that, I don't think.

[DCR]

If you guys would become part of Christ's remnant church, The Bible Church, you wouldn't have this problem.

Well, sure, if wanted to worship the Bible instead of Christ!  What version of Bible Church are you, anyway?  KJV?  NIV?  Amplified? Geneva?  

Probably Jerome's Vulgate... would be my guess. 

[memmy]

DCR, I am sure not trying to single you out. Since I haven't read the majority of this thread, I just was commenting on your one comment since I could relate to it, I suppose.

Sorry if that made you feel bad, as that is not my intention.

I just wish I didn't get so far behind here as I have been lately. If you miss out awhile you sure get too far behind to get it all in.

Blessings, Memmy

[DCR]

DCR, I am sure not trying to single you out. Since I haven't read the majority of this thread, I just was commenting on your one comment since I could relate to it, I suppose.

Sorry if that made you feel bad, as that is not my intention.

I just wish I didn't get so far behind here as I have been lately. If you miss out awhile you sure get too far behind to get it all in.

Blessings, Memmy

That's okay.  I just didn't want you to misunderstand where I was coming from.

[Bocephus]

If you guys would become part of Christ's remnant church, The Bible Church, you wouldn't have this problem.

Well, sure, if wanted to worship the Bible instead of Christ!  What version of Bible Church are you, anyway?  KJV?  NIV?  Amplified? Geneva?  

Mock all you want.  Apparently, you don't love the truth, for if you agreed with God, you would agree with me, for I agree with God.

[marc]

Won't answer directly, huh?  It's obvious you have something to hide.  Could it be that your Bible Church worships The Message?