The "Five Steps"

[Jimmy]

If you guys would become part of Christ's remnant church, The Bible Church, you wouldn't have this problem.

Well, sure, if wanted to worship the Bible instead of Christ!  What version of Bible Church are you, anyway?  KJV?  NIV?  Amplified? Geneva?  

Mock all you want.  Apparently, you don't love the truth, for if you agreed with God, you would agree with me, for I agree with God.

You have said that or similar a couple of times now.  I am not sure whether you actually think that or whether it is a little tongue in cheek.  Care to answer which?

[Bocephus]

If you guys would become part of Christ's remnant church, The Bible Church, you wouldn't have this problem.

Well, sure, if wanted to worship the Bible instead of Christ!  What version of Bible Church are you, anyway?  KJV?  NIV?  Amplified? Geneva?  

Mock all you want.  Apparently, you don't love the truth, for if you agreed with God, you would agree with me, for I agree with God.

You have said that or similar a couple of times now.  I am not sure whether you actually think that or whether it is a little tongue in cheek.  Care to answer which?

It was just a little ribbing to Marc and DCR

[stevehut]

It was a statement of the situation, not a recommendation of any particular action. 

Somehow I don't think you would have made that comment, unless you think they should be doing more...

[James.]

Well, just goes to show you can't read minds, so don't become a psychic.    If there are any "shoulds" to pass out, they would probably need to be distributed among all parties.

[Imabear]

Below is a link for those who want to check out the 5 steps and would like more information on the one true church.
http://www.bible.ca/indexsalvation.htm  (I stumbled upon this after following a link someone else posted on the boards.)
Here's a quote from further down the page:

In Psalms 127:1 we read,  "Except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it." No one has the right to start a church or religious organization that is different from the one Jesus built.  But we see hundreds of different kinds of churches that men have built, each with a different creed.  We must recognize the difference between the church the Lord built and the many counterfeit churches men have built.  Why not be a member of the church that Jesus built, the church of Christ so you can go to heaven.  This is a sad but serious situation; one that concerns me greatly and causes me much grief and sorrow to see honest people, who are honestly mistaken, laboring in vain. This is a supreme tragedy.

Why do certain verses from the Psalms apply to today, while others don't?  I'm confused.    Sorry guys, I guess I should have posted this under an IM topic. :)  Seriously,  I understand... I think.
 
Someone should help them update the site a bit.  It's not seeker-sensitive enough. :)
 
God Bless

[sidwms]

The Five Steps are without "The Beginning" from the Bible.

See my thread by that name.

[blituri]

After warning the Romans about musical idolatry at Mount Sinai as he did in 1 Corinthians 10, Paul who wrote Acts 22 said as he risked his life to preach the TRUE washing to those ready to murder him.

Rom 10:8 But what saith it?
         The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, [not your spirit]
         and in thy heart: that is,
         the word of FAITH, which we PREACH;

Paul MINISTERED the Spirit by preaching: Jesus said MY words are SPIRIT and LIFE.

Rom 10:9 That if thou
         shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus,
         and shalt BELIEVE in thine heart
         that God hath RAISED him from the DEAD,
         thou shalt be saved.

Rom 10:10 For with the heart
         man believeth unto righteousness; and
         with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

    Eisodos (g1529) ice'-od-os; from 1519 and 3598; an ENTRANCE (lit. or fig.): - COMING, entering) in (to).

K.C.Moser who has received his second incarnation, like most of the scholars among us, confuses righteousness with salvatin.  I have posted some of his quotes and just Bible in conext here.

http://www.piney.com/K.C.Moser.1.html

This will also link you to an online version of The Way of Salvation. He says that baptism just means repentence and does not save.

I have had this book since 1979 in Seattle and have marked it with lots of notes.

Rom 10:12 For there is NO DIFFERENCE between the Jew and the Greek:

Rom 10:13 for the SAME Lord over all is rich unto all THAT CALL UPON HIM.
         For whosoever shall CALL upon the NAME of the Lord shall be saved.

Peter repeated this from Joel and showed how tht was to be done.

CALLING ON THE NAME OF THE LORD IS ONLY BY BAPTISM

    And now why tarriest thou? arise,
         and BE BAPTIZED,
         and WASH away thy SINS,
         CALLING on the NAME of the LORD. Acts 22:16

Peter in Acts 2:38 says that God will give us A holy spirit when we are baptized IN THE NAME of Jesus Christ (not father, son and spirit)

 In 1 Peter he says that we APPEAL TO, REQUEST or CALL UPON God for A clear conscience.

    And corresponding to that, BAPTISM now SAVES you-- not the removal of dirt from the flesh,
         but an APPEAL to God for a good conscience--
         through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 1 Peter 3:21

THAT IS THE PLAN OF SALVATION IN ONE CHAPTER. It is simply the logical sequence which Pay repeats in several cycles.

[Imabear]

I was just at a Mennonite website and discovered these 5 steps:

    Confess. Confess that you have sinned and are a sinner.

    Believe. Believe that there is a God, and that God's son, Jesus, died and came back to life to get rid of your sin.

    Receive. Receive God's healing and forgiveness as you accept Jesus' healing love in your life.

    Live. Try to live in line with Jesus' teachings as expressed in God's word, the Bible, particularly the New Testament.

    Seek. Seek the guidance of God's Holy Spirit and the community of believers (the church) to understand the Bible and how to live the Christian life.

hmmm.... 

[Lee Freeman]

Ken, Moser was right. Baptism never saved anybody. But Jesus' death and resurrection-now that's saved many people.

Moser was opposing a legalistic approach to salvation that preached five arbitrary steps a person had to take to be saved culminating in baptism. The cross and resurrection was left totally out. In his 1934 FF piece "Can the Gospel Be Obeyed?" Moser commented:

"I have long noticed that most any position is tolerated just so it appears to exalt baptism, even at the expense of faith or the blood of Christ."

I remember when I was baptized at about 12 years old. Not once did the cross or grace enter my mind. Obedience yes. Correctly completing the five steps. Yes. Contemplating Jesus' death, burial and resurrection? Not so much.

Moser was right that biblically, "obeying the gospel" simply means believing in Jesus. Baptism is belief/faith in action. Baptism is a tangible symbol of our trusting faith in Jesus. The gospel is appropriated by baptism but it is no more the gospel than eating is food. If there was ever any doubt, Paul makes the distinction clear when in I Corinthians 1:17:

"For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel. . ."

I urge alll Christians, certainly all members of Churches of Christ, to read Moser's books and articles. You won't be disappointed.

Pax.

[DCR]

Ken, Moser was right. Baptism never saved anybody.

Does that mean Peter was wrong (1 Peter 3:21)? 

[blituri]

1 Pet. 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

1 Pet. 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient,
          when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah,
          while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is,
          eight souls were saved by water.

But, not REALLY: it was the ARK that saved them. But, not REALLY: it was God who saved them. But, but.

Now, Peter said that "eight souls were saved by water." The debate should end there: there is nothing you can do to turn that into a lie.

So, the only question that we who are not God have left is: "How were they saved BY water?"  If God said "raise your right hand and you will be saved" then raising the right hand saves because God transferred the power to an act of obedience.  But, but, He did not say "those who will not raise their right hand sall be lost." Fine: we know what saves and that is good enough for those who are OF TRUTH or OF FAITH.

Noah was a "righteous" man in that he did righteousness. He was SAVED in the physical sense because he OBEYED by FAITH.

Diasozo (g1295) dee-as-odze'-o; from 1223 and 4982; to save thoroughly, i.e. (by impl. or anal.) to cure, preserve, rescue, etc.: - bring safe, escape (safe), heal, make perfectly whole, save.

Heb.11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet,
         moved with fear,
         prepared an ark to the saving of his house;
         by the which he condemned the world,
         and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

Soteria (g4991) so-tay-ree'-ah; fem. of a der. of 4990 as (prop. abstr.) noun; rescue or safety (phys. or mor.): - deliver, health, salvation, save, saving.

The same Apostle who said "repent and be baptized FOR the remission of sins" AND you shall receive A holy spirit also said:

1 Pet. 3:21 The like figure whereunto
       even baptism doth also now save us

Those OF FAITH or OF TRUTH never attempt to trump the statement that BAPTISM DOTH ALSO NOW SAVE US.

For those with questions about HOW and WHEN Peter explained:

(not the putting away of the filth of the flesh,
         but the answer of a good conscience toward God,)
         by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Christ did not save anyone because He died or was resurrected: those who obey that FORM of teaching are THEN free from sin. But never before OBEDIENCE to what you believe in.

Answer ALWAYS means REQUEST. A person who REQUESTS salvation at baptism DOES NOT demand it as a WAGE for works performed OF WHICH they can boast. Therefore, to accuse CHRIST OBEYERS as legalistic is the MARK of a false teacher who DOES NOT have A holy spirit.

    Eperotema (g1906) ep-er-o'-tay-mah; from 1905; an inquiry: - answer.

    Eperotao (g1905) ep-er-o-tah'-o; from 1909 and 2065; to ask for, i.e. inquire, seek: -
      ask (after, questions), demand, desire, question.

God always uses instrumental means in doing His supernatural work.  Why would someone say BUT and begin to "go beyond that which is written" with the intention of telling Jesus and others that they were REALLY being legalistic.

Those who want to minimize the Bible with a dogma of faith only have NOT historic scholarship to back them up: it comes only from the preacher level of those who got caught in the BAPTISM DEBATE and made a major industry out of denying all known scholarly evidence:

Calvin had LOTS of things to say about baptism and he says one thing when tackling baptismal regeneration and quite another when speaking of what adults MUST do. Institutes Book 4.15.1

I answer, we are said to receive, procure, and obtain, whatever according to the perception of our faith is exhibited to us by the Lord, whether he then attests it for the first time, or gives additional confirmation to what he had previously attested.

All then that Ananias meant to say was, Be baptised, Paul,
       that you may be assured that your sins are forgiven you.
       In baptism, the Lord promises forgiveness of sins: receive it, and be secure.

I have no intention however, to detract from the power of baptism.

I would only add to the sign the substance and reality,
inasmuch as God works by external means.
But from this sacrament, as from all others, we gain nothing, unless in so far as we receive in faith.

If faith is wanting, it will be an evidence of our ingratitude by which we are proved guilty before God, for not believing the promise there given.

[Imabear]

Ken, Moser was right. Baptism never saved anybody.

Does that mean Peter was wrong (1 Peter 3:21)? 

Stirring the pot again I see.
I actually posted those steps because I thought it was a little odd that a group that is called "The Anabaptsts" who split off from the protestant movement primarily over the issue of baptism, didn't even mention baptism in their top 5. 
Although:

Live. Try to live in line with Jesus' teachings... and
Seek. Seek the guidance of God's Holy Spirit and the community of believers (the church) to understand the Bible and how to live the Christian life.

Probably covers it, even though not listed specifically.

[marc]

bump

[blituri]

No one ever denied putting their faith in the blood of Jesus Christ!

Baptism is CHRIST'S ORDAINED WAY to make that confession.  Peter said that BAPTISM SAVES because it is the way Jesus Christ SET UP as a WAY to request A holy Spirit or A good conscience.

Luke 7:29 And all the people that heard him, and the publicans,
        justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.
Luke 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyers
       rejected the counsel of God against themselves,
        being not baptized of him.

Peter said that the WAY to REQUEST that the shed blood be applied is BAPTISM IN WATER.
The way the Doctors of the Law and merchantile class DENY and teach others to DENY exactly what God in Christ commanded.
Those who OBEY in baptism are THEN FREE OF SIN.
FAITH ONLY is never a way to ask for the REMISSION OF SINS. So the ANTI-baptists and therefore ANTI-Christs build on the FOUNDATION of one single passage in the Bible.

Rejecting has the same meaning as Apistos in he that BELIEVETH NOT shall be damned. TO deny that "he that believeth AND is baptized SHALL BE saved" means to "reject God's will, to revolt, to be treacherous."

To JUSTIFY God is to confess that HE IS RIGHT in demanding that we be baptized.  You have to say that Jesus Christ was a liar in ALL of the baptism related passages to even QUESTION baptism.

John 12:42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers
       also many believed on him;
       but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him,
       lest they should be put out of the synagogue:
John 12:43 For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God

Do you REALLY think that BELIEVING SAVES when then and now they are in REVOLT against baptism?

I think that people who mumble against baptism also love the praise of men because ANTI-baptism and calling Jesus Christ a liar is the DRIVEN PURPOSE of most denominations.  I challenge the notion that the Church of Christ is hung up on baptism more than the denominations and wannabe frees are hung up on ANTI-baptism.  I find that strange and ignorant because I challenge any of them to find one of their historic scholars who said BAPTISM DOES NOT SAVE who didn't quickly add "WITHOUT FAITH." That was never to promote a one-step PATTERNISM for salvation but to repudiate sprinkling innocent infants.  Even the preacher level baptists don't know the difference between justification and salvation.  They PRACTICE justification by faith but NOT salvation by faith because a SAVED person is so because Jesus Christ has added you to HIS church.  You will not be in fellowship to lead or commune until you have been BAPTIZED.  So, the faith-only that the simple changelings lust to impose where they have no right to exist is based on a fraternal agreement with Baptists so that neither know what they are really doing.

To refuse to CONFESS Jesus Christ is to REJECT baptism which is the DECLARED COUNSEL as the OPERATIVE human end of the gospel.  There is NOT good news if you reject the blood by fuming about other people's motive.

NOT EVEN JESUS TAUGHT THE CORE GOSPEL: HE TAUGHT THE GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM OR THE CHURCH

Not many can be that dumb about baptism: they know that if they want to feed their face off the widows table they will HAVE to be in denial for FEAR of the denomination.  Within the Church of Christ I think they understand that there are more ANTI-baptism book buyers than the despised and rejected WAY.

20:24 But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself,
      so that I might finish my course with joy,
      and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus,
      to testify the gospel of the grace of God.

Acts 20:25 And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone
        preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.
Acts 20:26 Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.
Acts 20:27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.

We have shown that the CLERGY whom Jesus identified as hypocrites by pointing to speakers, singers and instrument players REJECTED the COUNSEL of God by REFUSING TO BE BAPTIZED.

The gospel of GRACE or the gospel of THE KINGDOM demands that you preach the WHOLE COUNSEL OF GOD.

Those who tamper with the baptism concept do NOT preache the Gospel of the kingdom because they simply cannot know the meaning of gospel which is not "seven facts ABOUT Jesus" with all the rest up for grabs.


 

[blituri]

sidwms says the Five Steps are without "The Beginning" from the Bible.

While I cannot translate that, you might look at all of the "saving" facts in Romans 10 and understand that CALLING ON THE NAME OF THE LORD is where you SIGN UP to serve someone.

You don't NEED five steps to make baptism MANDATORY:

Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou?
      arise, and be baptized,
      and wash away thy sins,
      Calling on the name of the Lord.

Since ONLY baptism is said to remit sins, you may be SAVED by faith only but then you are STILL IN YOUR SINS and you may have joked away your only chance to be FREE FROM SINS.