Author Topic: The "Five Steps"  (Read 41144 times)

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Offline Serenity432001

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Re: The "Five Steps"
« Reply #35 on: Thu Aug 14, 2008 - 07:18:28 »
Nice post, DCR...

IMO, the purpose of contrasting the two men in Luke 18:10-14 was to show how some (the Pharisee) thought of themselves to be without sin....why? Because this is how many of the Jews viewed themselves through the keeping of the law. They thought it made them right with God. It was a case of one man thinking he had no sin to be repentant of because he thought he was already clean, and then the other man, a despised tax collector, humbly asking God for forgiveness of sins that he freely admits to....a big difference.


Exactly!   Thank goodness we don't have that same struggle today!! ::smile::

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Re: The "Five Steps"
« Reply #35 on: Thu Aug 14, 2008 - 07:18:28 »

Offline DCR

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Re: The "Five Steps"
« Reply #36 on: Thu Aug 14, 2008 - 07:41:06 »
It seems that Walter Scott's original "five" has a lot going for it, that seems to have been lost with the "five steps" that we are more familiar with.  Just to take a closer look...

Quote
Faith to change the heart.


So, faith here is said to be involved in changing the heart.  That hardly sounds like mental assent only.  It also seems to allude to Peter's statement in Acts 15:9 about hearts being cleansed by faith.  The response all begins with and goes back to faith.

Quote
Repentance to change the life.


Sometimes, it seems that "repentance" is often confused with merely asking for forgiveness and being "sorry" for one's sins.  Repentance, of course, actually entails making changes in one's life.

Quote
Baptism to change the state.


No real comment here, as we discuss the purpose and function of baptism on this forum aplenty.  As far as what changes in regard to the "state" in baptism depends on one's understanding about what happens in and with baptism.

Quote
Remission of sins to cleanse the guilt.


I find it interesting that "remission of sins" here is actually listed separately from baptism.  It is a point in and of itself.  

Quote
The gift of the Holy Spirit to make one a participant in the Divine Nature.


This is profound in that includes the Holy Spirit in the equation.  It also appears to allude to 2 Peter 1:4, where we are said to be "partakers of the divine nature."  That particular Scripture, I never heard referred to much.

Perhaps, if I may take the liberty of reading more into Scott's paradigm than what he actually says, the first three points of this construct (faith, repentance, and baptism) are our response to the gospel.  But, the last two (remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit) are God's doing and God's action on us.  Baptism could even be said to be the turning point from us to God.

The "five" we know are centered on our response (our hearing, our believing, our repenting, our confessing, our being baptized).  But, in Scott's original "five," remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit are listed as two points separately, which are God's doing.

« Last Edit: Thu Aug 14, 2008 - 07:54:54 by DCR »

Offline stevehut

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Re: The "Five Steps"
« Reply #37 on: Thu Aug 14, 2008 - 08:08:03 »
Same could be said of the altar call, tears, and sinner's prayer.

???  ?

Ummm...no.  These are thoroughly modern inventions that have no basis in the gospel. 

marc

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Re: The "Five Steps"
« Reply #38 on: Thu Aug 14, 2008 - 08:24:59 »
I'll look it up, but memory (and I've read this in the last couple of weeks, but my memory's still not trustworthy) tells me that Scott originally had 6 points and cut them down to five so he could do the finger exercise involving having listeners make a fist they didn't open until they got home, and then repeat what they learned to someone else as they opened the fingers. Anyway, what I remember is that the first three (believe, repent, be baptized) were what man did and the next three, including remission of sins, is what God did, which would be why remission of sins would be listed separately.

edit:  According to The Encyclopedia of the Stone-Campbell Movement the sixth step was Eternal Life. I want this book.

Offline Jimbob

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Re: The "Five Steps"
« Reply #39 on: Thu Aug 14, 2008 - 08:37:30 »
Same could be said of the altar call, tears, and sinner's prayer.

???  ?

Ummm...no.  These are thoroughly modern inventions that have no basis in the gospel. 
Ummm...yes.  The point was not about whether or not they were biblical, but whether or not they can be insincere, actions born of something other than genuine faith.  Context, context, context.

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Re: The "Five Steps"
« Reply #39 on: Thu Aug 14, 2008 - 08:37:30 »



Offline Jimbob

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Re: The "Five Steps"
« Reply #40 on: Thu Aug 14, 2008 - 08:38:20 »
I'll look it up, but memory (and I've read this in the last couple of weeks, but my memory's still not trustworthy) tells me that Scott originally had 6 points and cut them down to five so he could do the finger exercise involving having listeners make a fist they didn't open until they got home, and then repeat what they learned to someone else as they opened the fingers. Anyway, what I remember is that the first three (believe, repent, be baptized) were what man did and the next three, including remission of sins, is what God did, which would be why remission of sins would be listed separately.

edit:  According to The Encyclopedia of the Stone-Campbell Movement the sixth step was Eternal Life. I want this book.
I bit the bullet (it's a tad expensive), and I think it was well worth it.

Offline DCR

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Re: The "Five Steps"
« Reply #41 on: Thu Aug 14, 2008 - 10:35:25 »
Anyway, what I remember is that the first three (believe, repent, be baptized) were what man did and the next three, including remission of sins, is what God did, which would be why remission of sins would be listed separately.


Excellent.  I'm glad I wasn't just dreaming that up then.  I've thumbed through the Encyclopedia of the S-C Movement before but that's about it.  I should fork out the money for it.

Offline DCR

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Re: The "Five Steps"
« Reply #42 on: Thu Aug 14, 2008 - 10:45:38 »
Does anyone know who developed the modified "five steps" that we are more familiar with today (hear, believe, repent, confess, be baptized)?

I suppose it could be one of those things of unknown origin that just spread through the preachers' schools and publications. 

marc

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Re: The "Five Steps"
« Reply #43 on: Thu Aug 14, 2008 - 11:56:56 »
Does anyone know who developed the modified "five steps" that we are more familiar with today (hear, believe, repent, confess, be baptized)?

I suppose it could be one of those things of unknown origin that just spread through the preachers' schools and publications. 

I don't know if he was the first, but according to Reviving the Ancient Faith in 1848 published The Beginning Corner; or, The Church of Christ Identified, an orthodoxy for the RMthat included seven "original marks". 

Number five was, "...its TERMS OF ADMISSION. These are Faith, Repentence, Confession, and Baptism, in the order here presented, and in their Biblical import and application...."

This included everything but "hear", I suppose, and seemed to be the next modification of Scott.

Offline DCR

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Re: The "Five Steps"
« Reply #44 on: Thu Aug 14, 2008 - 12:11:19 »
Does anyone know who developed the modified "five steps" that we are more familiar with today (hear, believe, repent, confess, be baptized)?

I suppose it could be one of those things of unknown origin that just spread through the preachers' schools and publications. 

I don't know if he was the first, but according to Reviving the Ancient Faith in 1848 published The Beginning Corner; or, The Church of Christ Identified, an orthodoxy for the RMthat included seven "original marks". 

Number five was, "...its TERMS OF ADMISSION. These are Faith, Repentence, Confession, and Baptism, in the order here presented, and in their Biblical import and application...."

This included everything but "hear", I suppose, and seemed to be the next modification of Scott.

Do you remember what the name of this person who wrote this was (I think you may have inadvertently left it out)?

1848 would have been the era of people such as Tolbert Fanning and Benjamin Franklin (not to be confused with the American historical Ben Franklin).  I guess Campbell was still active during that time as well.
« Last Edit: Thu Aug 14, 2008 - 13:54:46 by DCR »

marc

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Re: The "Five Steps"
« Reply #45 on: Thu Aug 14, 2008 - 12:15:39 »
Sorry. John R. Howard.

Offline stevehut

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Re: The "Five Steps"
« Reply #46 on: Thu Aug 14, 2008 - 13:13:45 »
Ummm...yes.  The point was not about whether or not they were biblical, but whether or not they can be insincere


??? ?

Why should sincerity matter with an altar call?  IT'S A FALSEHOOD!!  All the sincerity in the world won't help.

Offline DCR

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Re: The "Five Steps"
« Reply #47 on: Thu Aug 14, 2008 - 13:20:16 »
Ummm...yes.  The point was not about whether or not they were biblical, but whether or not they can be insincere


??? ?

Why should sincerity matter with an altar call?  IT'S A FALSEHOOD!!  All the sincerity in the world won't help.

??? ?

I think you're missing the point.

Ironically, I think jmg3rd was actually agreeing with/supporting what you were saying.

You referred to true faith being absent in any religious practice.  He merely responded in agreement and cited examples such as altar calls and sinner's prayers, etc.  Then, you misinterpreted his response as somehow giving approval for those practices. 

You see disagreement where there is none.  ::noworries::

Offline Jimbob

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Re: The "Five Steps"
« Reply #48 on: Thu Aug 14, 2008 - 13:34:56 »
1848 would have been the era of people such as Tolbert Fanning and Benjamin Franklin (not to be confused with the American historical Ben Franklin).  I guess Campbell was still active during that time as well.
Just as an aside, this is an original printing of the Franklin v. Hume debate, sitting on my shelf behind me.

« Last Edit: Fri Aug 15, 2008 - 09:03:54 by DCR »

Offline Jimbob

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Re: The "Five Steps"
« Reply #49 on: Thu Aug 14, 2008 - 14:02:24 »
Btw, nosing around Google books I came across this...

  Interesting since Creflo Dollar isn't exactly an RM kinda guy, more a health/wealth guy.

Offline Bon Voyage

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Re: The "Five Steps"
« Reply #50 on: Thu Aug 14, 2008 - 14:11:17 »
Btw, nosing around Google books I came across this...

  Interesting since Creflo Dollar isn't exactly an RM kinda guy, more a health/wealth guy.


Well,  Creflo seems to have misplaced the 6th step, which is "Give money to Creflo."

Offline stevehut

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Re: The "Five Steps"
« Reply #51 on: Thu Aug 14, 2008 - 22:10:47 »
Maybe I'm just not keeping up, but...

What's wrong with the five steps?

Are they the wrong steps, or....??   ???

Offline Bon Voyage

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Re: The "Five Steps"
« Reply #52 on: Thu Aug 14, 2008 - 23:28:21 »
Maybe I'm just not keeping up, but...

What's wrong with the five steps?

Are they the wrong steps, or....??   ???

Find the the Five Steps in the Bible in one passage.  If you can't, it was invented by man.

Offline stevehut

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Re: The "Five Steps"
« Reply #53 on: Fri Aug 15, 2008 - 00:03:13 »
Find the the Five Steps in the Bible in one passage.  If you can't, it was invented by man.

Why does it need to be all in one place?

Are some or all of the steps not supported in the Bible?   ???

marc

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Re: The "Five Steps"
« Reply #54 on: Fri Aug 15, 2008 - 07:48:44 »
The problem is that this is presented as something that came down from God.  This is the Only Way to teach it (unless you add that sixth "live faithful unto death" step).  At least that's the way it was presented when I was young (and I still hear it presented).  You can tell a church is a false church is they use some other way that was invented by man.  Investigate the Bible, and this is what you find.  If you need help finding it, let me help you.

I'm serious.  I still hear this regularly.

Problem is, it's an artificial construct that was cobbled together using another construct and edited, likely because someone didn't want the Holy Spirit included as one of the steps. 

Offline stevehut

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Re: The "Five Steps"
« Reply #55 on: Fri Aug 15, 2008 - 08:05:01 »
The problem is that this is presented as something that came down from God. 

Then what would you suggest as an alternative?

Which one of the steps doesn't belong? 

Are they in the wrong order?

Is something missing?   ???


Offline Jimmy

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Re: The "Five Steps"
« Reply #56 on: Fri Aug 15, 2008 - 08:13:21 »
Maybe I'm just not keeping up, but...

What's wrong with the five steps?

Are they the wrong steps, or....??   ???

Find the the Five Steps in the Bible in one passage.  If you can't, it was invented by man.

Find anywhere in the Bible that says salvation by faith alone.  If you can't, it was invented by man.

Offline stevehut

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Re: The "Five Steps"
« Reply #57 on: Fri Aug 15, 2008 - 08:23:06 »
I don't understand, Jimmy.   ???  The 5 steps presented here, don't say that.

Offline Jimmy

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Re: The "Five Steps"
« Reply #58 on: Fri Aug 15, 2008 - 08:49:04 »
I don't understand, Jimmy.   ???  The 5 steps presented here, don't say that.

Gary contended that if you can't find all five steps in one place in the Bible then the five steps must be invented by man and not Biblical.

On the other side we have those who would declare that salvation is by faith alone.  I was attempting to counter Gary's arguement by handing his own statement back to him.

At least in the case of the so-called five steps, they are all mentioned in the Bible as leading to salvation.  Nowhere is it ever said in the Bible that faith alone leads to salvation.

Offline Bon Voyage

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Re: The "Five Steps"
« Reply #59 on: Fri Aug 15, 2008 - 09:01:46 »
Maybe I'm just not keeping up, but...

What's wrong with the five steps?

Are they the wrong steps, or....??   ???

Find the the Five Steps in the Bible in one passage.  If you can't, it was invented by man.

Find anywhere in the Bible that says salvation by faith alone.  If you can't, it was invented by man.

I don't believe in "Faith Alone."  Try again.

Offline zoonance

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Re: The "Five Steps"
« Reply #60 on: Fri Aug 15, 2008 - 12:55:16 »
It is clear that the SIX "steps" are all from scripture - from the most casual reading, without a PhD in theology.  What isn't nearly quite as clear is the idea that heaven is on the seventh step and the only way to assure getting there is by numerical order.   However, the steps are too high to skip.   Outside of the normative revealed relationship between preaching and responding, the Word he left us states: One is not going to enter heaven if they have not heard the Word, believes the message of Jesus, repents of their sin, confesses Him as Lord, immersed in water (for forgiveness of sins, to participate in the DBR, clothe yourself with Christ, etc.), remains faithful to the end to receive the crown of life.      Recognizing that these are expected responses of the faithful is not foreighn to new testament christianity.   Fighting over the details and chronological, structural responses to a humbled spirit when the gospel penetrates the soul is not particularly productive.   It shouldn't be the anomaly that a believer, dedicated to Him and his Word would claim to have not believed, not repented, not confessed his name, not have been immersed, not be living in the light as He is in the light.  etc.   

marc

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Re: The "Five Steps"
« Reply #61 on: Fri Aug 15, 2008 - 13:12:06 »
The problem is that this is presented as something that came down from God. 

Then what would you suggest as an alternative?




Stop worrying about steps.  If it were important to have specific steps laid out in order, the Biblical writers could have done it. 

Commit to Christ.  That's all, and it includes everything.  Remember, Jesus simplified (see his summary of the commandments); He didn't complicate. He went to the heart of things.

Offline DCR

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Re: The "Five Steps"
« Reply #62 on: Fri Aug 15, 2008 - 13:20:14 »
I'm serious.  I still hear this regularly.

I couldn't even tell you the last time I heard the Five Steps listed in a sermon.  In fact, I don't believe I've ever heard them listed at the congregation where I now attend.  Ever.  And, I've been there regularly for almost six years now.

Then again, I'm in Nashville, a hotbed of liberalism.  ::playingguitar::

Offline Bon Voyage

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Re: The "Five Steps"
« Reply #63 on: Fri Aug 15, 2008 - 13:21:41 »
I'm serious.  I still hear this regularly.

I couldn't even tell you the last time I heard the Five Steps listed in a sermon.  I don't ever remember hearing it at the congregation where I now attend.  Ever.

Then again, I'm in Nashville, a hotbed of liberalism.  ::playingguitar::

That might be a good thing, considering the 5 steps are man created.

And if anyone disagrees with me, then they are worse than Joel Osteen.   ::smile::

Offline DCR

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Re: The "Five Steps"
« Reply #64 on: Fri Aug 15, 2008 - 13:23:09 »
And if anyone disagrees with me, then they are worse than Joel Osteen.   ::smile::

...or Chris Tomlin.

Offline Bon Voyage

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Re: The "Five Steps"
« Reply #65 on: Fri Aug 15, 2008 - 13:26:08 »
And if anyone disagrees with me, then they are worse than Joel Osteen.   ::smile::

...or Chris Tomlin.

I wasn't trying to be that mean.

marc

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Re: The "Five Steps"
« Reply #66 on: Fri Aug 15, 2008 - 14:18:34 »
I haven't heard them in close to two days.

Offline stevehut

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Re: The "Five Steps"
« Reply #67 on: Fri Aug 15, 2008 - 16:16:06 »
1- Stop worrying about steps. 

2- If it were important to have specific steps laid out in order, the Biblical writers could have done it. 

3- Commit to Christ.  That's all, and it includes everything. 

4- Remember, Jesus simplified

1- I'm not.   ::noworries::

2- You don't believe in expostitory preaching?  ???

3- How?  You don't suppose some people might need to this explained, in practical terms?

4- 5 steps is complicated?   rofl

marc

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Re: The "Five Steps"
« Reply #68 on: Fri Aug 15, 2008 - 17:47:01 »
Well, apparently some people can't understand things unless they're laid out in numbered order, but the above post is a very good example of how meaning can be lost or misconstrued when this is done.  And number two makes no sense at all.

But please, please, please don't edit my posts after putting them in a quote box.    A numbered list and a paragraph are very different things.

Offline stevehut

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Re: The "Five Steps"
« Reply #69 on: Fri Aug 15, 2008 - 18:15:38 »
Marc, I certainly understand how a misguided believer can cobble together a collection of verses to "prove" or "disprove" anything they want.  (Hence, 30,000 denominations.)  No doubt, I've been down that route many times in the past 40 years.

And yes, I understand the hazards of creeds and oversimplified statements of faith.

Still -- do you disagree with the individual principles in the 5-step list?

(And btw, expository preaching means that you single out several verses to illustrate a point.)