Author Topic: The "Five Steps"  (Read 41145 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

marc

  • Guest
Re: The "Five Steps"
« Reply #70 on: Fri Aug 15, 2008 - 18:40:54 »
Hmmm..I've always been taught that expository preaching centers on a certain passage and brings out the meaning of that passage. Your definition sounds more like topical preaching.

I believe mostly in using context to determine meaning, btw.

I don't believe in cobbling together a creed in a certin order and teaching it as REVEALED SCRIPTURE, which is what is done with the five steps. 

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: The "Five Steps"
« Reply #70 on: Fri Aug 15, 2008 - 18:40:54 »

Offline stevehut

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3769
  • Manna: 70
  • Gender: Male
Re: The "Five Steps"
« Reply #71 on: Fri Aug 15, 2008 - 18:52:21 »
Topical, oh yes.   ::doh::  Nevermind about that one.

Now, given the concessions that I made in my previous post...

Do you disagree with the individual principles in the 5-step list?  Do you not believe that they are a part of the equation?

I ask this, in part, because I recently attended a recruiting meeting for the Gideons.  (They scouted dozens of churches in our area, and our elders decided to send me, of all people   ::shrug::)  Their approach for evangelism is to stand on a street corner, hand out New Testaments to anyone and everyone without a word of discussion.  Then, the person is expected to read the NT, go through the Sinner's Prayer in the back, and find a good church.

But I don't believe in the Sinner's Prayer.

I don't believe in just giving someone a book and walking away.  They need to be taught.

And I have a perfectly good church.  Why should I tell them, "Go find one?"

OK, sermon over.  Thoughts?



marc

  • Guest
Re: The "Five Steps"
« Reply #72 on: Fri Aug 15, 2008 - 19:11:19 »
Not as such, but I think we have systemized them beyond practical use, and for that reason I prefer not to use them that way.  And honestly, I think including "hear" is kind of silly.  Just personal opinion.

Interestingly, Gospel Minutes occasionally points out that they (or at least the elder Mr. Thurman) don't really think "confess" should be included, since confess is really just saying out loud that you believe.

I think the five-step-program turns everything into process (for want of a better word, since everything is in a sense a process--here I use the word to mean a step-by-step program, a set of dirctions not unlike one you'd use to put together a shelf) when what we should be doing is introducing people to a new way of life in Jesus.  When I do a formal-type invitation (I only speak occasionally), I usually connect the decision with a change of life, a faith that results in a new life in Christ.  I tend to mention baptism in this context--surrendering ourselves to Him and rising to live, as the old folks say, a new(ness of) life.

I'd rather couch it as a surrender to Christ than as a bunch of things to do.  To me, this becomes more meaningful that way.

----------------

On another note, I do topical preaching, but I try not to use just a list of unconnected scripture.  I'd rather use just a few scriptures and delve at least a little into the context.

Offline Bon Voyage

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 16049
  • Manna: 408
  • Gender: Male
Re: The "Five Steps"
« Reply #73 on: Fri Aug 15, 2008 - 19:40:52 »
Topical, oh yes.   ::doh::  Nevermind about that one.

Now, given the concessions that I made in my previous post...

Do you disagree with the individual principles in the 5-step list?  Do you not believe that they are a part of the equation?

I ask this, in part, because I recently attended a recruiting meeting for the Gideons.  (They scouted dozens of churches in our area, and our elders decided to send me, of all people   ::shrug::)  Their approach for evangelism is to stand on a street corner, hand out New Testaments to anyone and everyone without a word of discussion.  Then, the person is expected to read the NT, go through the Sinner's Prayer in the back, and find a good church.

But I don't believe in the Sinner's Prayer.

I don't believe in just giving someone a book and walking away.  They need to be taught.

And I have a perfectly good church.  Why should I tell them, "Go find one?"

OK, sermon over.  Thoughts?




Are you CofC?  If so, do CofC's ever work with The Gideons?

Offline stevehut

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3769
  • Manna: 70
  • Gender: Male
Re: The "Five Steps"
« Reply #74 on: Fri Aug 15, 2008 - 19:59:48 »
Not as such, but I think we have systemized them beyond practical use, and for that reason I prefer not to use them that way. 

Well, I don't know how they do things where you come from.  But when I lead a Bible study, I don't just tell them the bullet points and the proof texts.  I have a discussion about each one, and maybe a couple of other supporting verses.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: The "Five Steps"
« Reply #74 on: Fri Aug 15, 2008 - 19:59:48 »



Offline DCR

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 11300
  • Manna: 432
  • Gender: Male
Re: The "Five Steps"
« Reply #75 on: Fri Aug 15, 2008 - 20:02:44 »
I know very little about the Gideons.  To me, they were always the mysterious unseen who place Bibles in hotel rooms.


Offline Bon Voyage

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 16049
  • Manna: 408
  • Gender: Male
Re: The "Five Steps"
« Reply #76 on: Fri Aug 15, 2008 - 20:15:06 »
I know very little about the Gideons.  To me, they were always the mysterious unseen who place Bibles in hotel rooms.

I've seen them quite a bit in my circles.

Offline stevehut

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3769
  • Manna: 70
  • Gender: Male
Re: The "Five Steps"
« Reply #77 on: Fri Aug 15, 2008 - 20:40:31 »
Are you CofC?  If so, do CofC's ever work with The Gideons?

Let's say that I've spent some time around coc people.  And the moment that the Gideons told me they teach the Sinner's Prayer, I knew that no serious coc person would work with them.

But the funny thing is, many of the people I met at this meeting, identified themselves as Methodists, Presbyterians, and other Protestants who "officially" teach that salvation is to be attained through repentance and baptism (and not a simplistic prayer).

Offline Imabear

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3154
  • Manna: 165
  • Gender: Female
Re: The "Five Steps"
« Reply #78 on: Sat Aug 16, 2008 - 08:30:07 »
Are you CofC?  If so, do CofC's ever work with The Gideons?

Let's say that I've spent some time around coc people.  And the moment that the Gideons told me they teach the Sinner's Prayer, I knew that no serious coc person would work with them.

But the funny thing is, many of the people I met at this meeting, identified themselves as Methodists, Presbyterians, and other Protestants who "officially" teach that salvation is to be attained through repentance and baptism (and not a simplistic prayer)
I have known a few Gideons in my life.  I think placing Bibles in hotel and hospital rooms and handing them out is a good thing.  People have found salvation by reading the gospel message. 

About the sinner's prayer, I believe you're seeing the sinner's prayer as something different than it was meant to be. 
It's not meant to be used in a vacuum.  It's a tool, a step.  That's all.

Edit:  I had posted something else here, but after thinking it through, I realized what I posted was in error.
« Last Edit: Sat Aug 16, 2008 - 11:31:18 by w8ing4daybreak »

Offline stevehut

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3769
  • Manna: 70
  • Gender: Male
Re: The "Five Steps"
« Reply #79 on: Sat Aug 16, 2008 - 08:53:11 »
1- I think placing Bibles in hotel and hospital rooms and handing them out is a good thing. 

2- People have found salvation by reading the gospel message. 

3- It's not meant to be used in a vacuum. 



1- Me too.

2- Without someone to teach them?  Perhaps, but I'm not going to bet the farm on that do-it-yourself approach.

3- In the Gideon plan, yes it certainly is.


Offline zoonance

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8529
  • Manna: 233
  • Gender: Male
Re: The "Five Steps"
« Reply #80 on: Sat Aug 16, 2008 - 13:07:01 »
1- I think placing Bibles in hotel and hospital rooms and handing them out is a good thing. 

2- People have found salvation by reading the gospel message. 

3- It's not meant to be used in a vacuum. 



1- Me too.

2- Without someone to teach them?  Perhaps, but I'm not going to bet the farm on that do-it-yourself approach.

3- In the Gideon plan, yes it certainly is.






2.   Really?  kind of sounds like "If people would only read the New Testament, they would clearly and obviously find the truth and we would all be the only True church, etc etc etc"

Offline stevehut

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3769
  • Manna: 70
  • Gender: Male
Re: The "Five Steps"
« Reply #81 on: Sat Aug 16, 2008 - 13:09:14 »
I don't understand, zoo.   ::shrug::

Offline zoonance

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8529
  • Manna: 233
  • Gender: Male
Re: The "Five Steps"
« Reply #82 on: Sat Aug 16, 2008 - 13:15:41 »
I don't understand, zoo.   ::shrug::


You don't?   really?

Offline stevehut

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3769
  • Manna: 70
  • Gender: Male
Re: The "Five Steps"
« Reply #83 on: Sat Aug 16, 2008 - 13:16:59 »

Offline Bon Voyage

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 16049
  • Manna: 408
  • Gender: Male
Re: The "Five Steps"
« Reply #84 on: Sat Aug 16, 2008 - 14:02:00 »
1- I think placing Bibles in hotel and hospital rooms and handing them out is a good thing. 

2- People have found salvation by reading the gospel message. 

3- It's not meant to be used in a vacuum. 



1- Me too.

2- Without someone to teach them?  Perhaps, but I'm not going to bet the farm on that do-it-yourself approach.

3- In the Gideon plan, yes it certainly is.






2.   Really?  kind of sounds like "If people would only read the New Testament, they would clearly and obviously find the truth and we would all be the only True church, etc etc etc"

The old "you plant corn you get corn, you plant the New Testament, you get Christians, not Baptists or Methodists" line.

Offline stevehut

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3769
  • Manna: 70
  • Gender: Male
Re: The "Five Steps"
« Reply #85 on: Sat Aug 16, 2008 - 14:05:50 »

The old "you plant corn you get corn, you plant the New Testament, you get Christians, not Baptists or Methodists" line.

Hey, even corn needs to be fertilized and cultivated, in order to get the result you want.

Every new believer needs to be taught.

Offline Bon Voyage

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 16049
  • Manna: 408
  • Gender: Male
Re: The "Five Steps"
« Reply #86 on: Sat Aug 16, 2008 - 14:17:14 »

The old "you plant corn you get corn, you plant the New Testament, you get Christians, not Baptists or Methodists" line.

Hey, even corn needs to be fertilized and cultivated, in order to get the result you want.

Every new believer needs to be taught.

Zoo's comment is about the line some in the CofC used that if folks were to read the New Testament completely objectively, they would agree with those particular CofC'ers on all matters pertaining to doctrine.

Offline zoonance

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8529
  • Manna: 233
  • Gender: Male
Re: The "Five Steps"
« Reply #87 on: Sat Aug 16, 2008 - 15:34:27 »

The old "you plant corn you get corn, you plant the New Testament, you get Christians, not Baptists or Methodists" line.

Hey, even corn needs to be fertilized and cultivated, in order to get the result you want.

Every new believer needs to be taught.


fertilized and cultivated corn still yields corn.   More productive, usable, edible fruits, but still 100% corn.    Taught what?

Offline stevehut

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3769
  • Manna: 70
  • Gender: Male
Re: The "Five Steps"
« Reply #88 on: Sat Aug 16, 2008 - 18:46:16 »
if folks were to read the New Testament completely objectively, they would agree with those particular CofC'ers on all matters pertaining to doctrine.

Can you become a nuclear physicist simply reading a book on nuclear physics?  I don't think so.  No matter how good the book is, every student needs to be taught.

As for "complete objectivity" I'm not so sure that is generally possible.  Every human over age 10 has baggage.  We all have our pre-existing beliefs and biases, which will color our understandings of Scripture.

savedbyhim

  • Guest
Re: The "Five Steps"
« Reply #89 on: Sat Aug 16, 2008 - 20:08:18 »
1- I think placing Bibles in hotel and hospital rooms and handing them out is a good thing. 

2- People have found salvation by reading the gospel message. 

3- It's not meant to be used in a vacuum. 



1- Me too.

2- Without someone to teach them?  Perhaps, but I'm not going to bet the farm on that do-it-yourself approach.

3- In the Gideon plan, yes it certainly is.


I found salvation without anyone else teaching me what the Bible says...and it wasn't some misguided faith either. In fact, before I even knew what a denomination was I was already filled with the spiritual love, joy, and peace that comes from God's truth. When I was baptized it wasn't because someone had told me to do it, it was because I read it in the Bible myself. So, what were you saying about the "do-it-yourself approach?"

Anyway, I think that giving out Bibles in places where people can use them is a very good idea. I wish that more than the Gideons had that lofty idea.  My old church gave out Bibles at the local hospital and from what I heard it was a successful thing for them to do. No doctrines were outlined, nothing presented with a "we will teach you" kind of thing....just free Bibles for those who needed one at the hospital. Pretty good thinking, if you ask me.


Offline stevehut

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3769
  • Manna: 70
  • Gender: Male
Re: The "Five Steps"
« Reply #90 on: Sat Aug 16, 2008 - 20:36:28 »
 ::headscratch::

I wouldn't boast about that record, saved. 

God has wired all of us to need each other.  It is not a virtue, to proudly go it alone.

Offline Serenity432001

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7264
  • Manna: 488
  • Gender: Female
Re: The "Five Steps"
« Reply #91 on: Sun Aug 17, 2008 - 06:05:12 »
I think its good to have a healthy balance.  Its good to learn from others and be open to what they say BUT, we need to have our own faith and not our parents or our teachers.  I was taught very well as a child and am grateful for that teaching but, when I became an adult, I started questioning some of it and rightfully so.  I didn't really get a relationship with God from just being taught.  I had to seek and find for myself.   I've also seen much teaching be destructive and just plain wrong so we certainly want to be careful that we are not being dependent upon others for all our teaching but to be dependent upon God that He guide and guard us. 

Offline Serenity432001

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7264
  • Manna: 488
  • Gender: Female
Re: The "Five Steps"
« Reply #92 on: Sun Aug 17, 2008 - 06:11:25 »
::headscratch::

I wouldn't boast about that record, saved. 

God has wired all of us to need each other.  It is not a virtue, to proudly go it alone.

Imo, what saved did was to seek and find.  God has made it so all who seek will find so that tells me that we don't have to have someone else.  God is everywhere and speaks to us through creation and all sorts of ways including but not limited to other people.   I do agree that we are wired to need one another but if our real dependence is not first and foremost on God, others could get us in a heap of trouble.

Offline stevehut

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3769
  • Manna: 70
  • Gender: Male
Re: The "Five Steps"
« Reply #93 on: Sun Aug 17, 2008 - 08:07:46 »
I was taught very well as a child and am grateful for that teaching but, when I became an adult, I started questioning some of it and rightfully so.  I didn't really get a relationship with God from just being taught.  I had to seek and find for myself.   

Yup   ::nodding::

Offline stevehut

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3769
  • Manna: 70
  • Gender: Male
Re: The "Five Steps"
« Reply #94 on: Sun Aug 17, 2008 - 08:09:11 »
God has made it so all who seek will find so that tells me that we don't have to have someone else. 

 ???  ?

Doesn't sound like biblical Christianity to me.

savedbyhim

  • Guest
Re: The "Five Steps"
« Reply #95 on: Sun Aug 17, 2008 - 11:19:36 »
::headscratch::

I wouldn't boast about that record, saved. 

God has wired all of us to need each other.  It is not a virtue, to proudly go it alone.

I'm quite proud and confident of my conversion to Christ, and I do not apologize to you or anyone else for it. The word of God points to Christ and in my case it led me straight to Him (after several months of reading). I did not have to be a Bible Scholar to do it, nor did it require someone to point it all out to me in their own interpretation of things.....I was able to read the Bible and figure out what God required of me on my own. The word of God is poured out by the Holy Spirit and it does not return void. It accomplishes exactly what it is intended to accomplish when someone opens their heart to it and really wants to learn what it means.

Also, I never said that I was going it alone....I'm very involved in the body of Christ and have been for many years. And just as the word of God says, "by their fruits you shall know them," you can bet that I know who is my brother in Christ and those who just belong to some religious faction.

savedbyhim

  • Guest
Re: The "Five Steps"
« Reply #96 on: Sun Aug 17, 2008 - 11:21:12 »
::headscratch::

I wouldn't boast about that record, saved. 

God has wired all of us to need each other.  It is not a virtue, to proudly go it alone.

Imo, what saved did was to seek and find.  God has made it so all who seek will find so that tells me that we don't have to have someone else.  God is everywhere and speaks to us through creation and all sorts of ways including but not limited to other people.   I do agree that we are wired to need one another but if our real dependence is not first and foremost on God, others could get us in a heap of trouble.
Thanks Lisa...manna to you for just being nice!

Offline stevehut

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3769
  • Manna: 70
  • Gender: Male
Re: The "Five Steps"
« Reply #97 on: Sun Aug 17, 2008 - 16:52:37 »
I do agree that we are wired to need one another but if our real dependence is not first and foremost on God, others could get us in a heap of trouble.

I couldn't agree more, Serenity.   ::nodding::

And generally, I get in a bigger heap when I try to go it alone.  I tried for years.

Offline stevehut

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3769
  • Manna: 70
  • Gender: Male
Re: The "Five Steps"
« Reply #98 on: Sun Aug 17, 2008 - 16:55:28 »
1- I do not apologize to you or anyone else for it.

2- I did not have to be a Bible Scholar to do it,

3- nor did it require someone to point it all out to me in their own interpretation of things.

4- those who just belong to some religious faction.

1- Good.  I wouldn't expect you to.

2- Me either.

3- I don't think the Bible needs to be "interpreted."  About 99% means exactly what it says.

4- ??? ?

Offline Serenity432001

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7264
  • Manna: 488
  • Gender: Female
Re: The "Five Steps"
« Reply #99 on: Sun Aug 17, 2008 - 23:25:28 »
God has made it so all who seek will find so that tells me that we don't have to have someone else. 

 ???  ?

Doesn't sound like biblical Christianity to me.

If you'll read the rest of my post it should clear up the confusion.  I'm not saying we don't need other people at all but I am saying that God can be found through creation and other resources as well as other people. 

Offline stevehut

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3769
  • Manna: 70
  • Gender: Male
Re: The "Five Steps"
« Reply #100 on: Mon Aug 18, 2008 - 00:04:43 »
I'm not confused, Serenity.   ::tippinghat::  I read and understood every word.

I am well aware that many people are apprehensive about churches, because they've been burned before and don't know who to trust.  Still, the self-dependence route is not a good long-term plan.

Offline Serenity432001

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7264
  • Manna: 488
  • Gender: Female
Re: The "Five Steps"
« Reply #101 on: Mon Aug 18, 2008 - 06:43:57 »
I'm not confused, Serenity.   ::tippinghat::  I read and understood every word.

I am well aware that many people are apprehensive about churches, because they've been burned before and don't know who to trust.  Still, the self-dependence route is not a good long-term plan.

My bad.  I misunderstood this symbol  ??? to mean you were confused.

I also understand what you are saying as far as not a good long-term plan but I think your and I discussion originated with what you said to saved and that wasn't about long term.  It was about beginnings and I just believe God has made it so if necessary He can be found even if man were on an island. I think we are all in agreement that we do need one another though and to stay on the island isn't the best way to go.

Offline stevehut

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3769
  • Manna: 70
  • Gender: Male
Re: The "Five Steps"
« Reply #102 on: Mon Aug 18, 2008 - 08:02:51 »
your and I discussion originated with what you said to saved and that wasn't about long term.  It was about beginnings

Isn't the "beginnings" the most important part to get right?   ::lookaround::  I went through the motions of religion for most of my life, but until I received my initial salvation (not by myself), it was just rituals and words.

marc

  • Guest
Re: The "Five Steps"
« Reply #103 on: Mon Aug 18, 2008 - 08:09:08 »
If the "beginnings" are presented as ritual and words, as I've seen happen often, then what follows often will be the same.

The beginnings part that's the most vital and relevant to the rest of our lives involves a commitment to Christ, imho.

Offline stevehut

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3769
  • Manna: 70
  • Gender: Male
Re: The "Five Steps"
« Reply #104 on: Mon Aug 18, 2008 - 08:34:45 »
The beginnings part that's the most vital and relevant to the rest of our lives involves a commitment to Christ, imho.

I don't think most people have a problem with that, in principle.  But exactly what does that mean?  This is why we need a teacher.  Especially with regard to the doctrine of salvation.  Left to my own devices, I came up with all kinds of fanciful ideas.

 

     
anything