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Offline s1n4m1n

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The Lord's Supper an offering to God
« on: Wed Aug 27, 2008 - 14:09:33 »
Has anyone come across any coC preacher, teachers or writers proposing to "restore" the Lord's Supper as an offering to God?

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The Lord's Supper an offering to God
« on: Wed Aug 27, 2008 - 14:09:33 »

Offline stevehut

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Re: The Lord's Supper an offering to God
« Reply #1 on: Wed Aug 27, 2008 - 14:19:48 »
 ???  ?

I don't even understand that question...

Offline s1n4m1n

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Re: The Lord's Supper an offering to God
« Reply #2 on: Wed Aug 27, 2008 - 14:36:49 »
By "offering" I essentially mean a sacrifice or an oblation. But I used "offering" because of the concept of "offering to God" the Lord's Supper.

Offline Jimbob

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Re: The Lord's Supper an offering to God
« Reply #3 on: Wed Aug 27, 2008 - 16:06:22 »
As you know, many teach the opposite, that the the sacrifice was one time for all time, and that the supper is not a sacrifice, but a celebration of a sacrifice already offered by Christ Himself, when He entered into the hagia hagion.

Quote
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. 8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, 16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. 18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. (Hebrews 10 KJV)

IOW, nope.

Offline s1n4m1n

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Re: The Lord's Supper an offering to God
« Reply #4 on: Wed Aug 27, 2008 - 16:51:38 »
James,

I'm sure it would be a minority view bordering on infinitesimally small, but I was wondering if it was universally rejected among coC, RM types.

Also I tried to be more vague by using the term "offering", to allow a greater expanse of opinion. Does every "offering" have to be a sin offering? Do we offer anything to God? Does Hebrew 10 say that there are no other offerings at all?

« Last Edit: Wed Aug 27, 2008 - 17:10:22 by s1n4m1n »

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Re: The Lord's Supper an offering to God
« Reply #4 on: Wed Aug 27, 2008 - 16:51:38 »



Offline stevehut

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Re: The Lord's Supper an offering to God
« Reply #5 on: Wed Aug 27, 2008 - 17:37:03 »
Last time I checked, the Eucharist was an extension of the Passover meal.  It's something you eat, not something you sacrifice.   ::bowing::  And it has nothing to do with petitioning for the forgiveness of sins.

Offline Jimbob

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Re: The Lord's Supper an offering to God
« Reply #6 on: Wed Aug 27, 2008 - 20:33:56 »
James,

I'm sure it would be a minority view bordering on infinitesimally small, but I was wondering if it was universally rejected among coC, RM types.
You asked, I answered from what I've seen.  Sorry it didn't fit the expected mold.  (<--btw, not intended as crankily as it might sound)


Quote
Does Hebrew 10 say that there are no other offerings at all?
Nope.  But again, telling what I've seen and known of, which was the question.  Haven't heard a single one call for the supper to be "restored" to an "offering."  There has been a big trend of people quoting JM Hicks to move in the opposite direction from such a thought (altar v. fellowship meal), so it's probably an increasingly less likely probability.

Offline s1n4m1n

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Re: The Lord's Supper an offering to God
« Reply #7 on: Wed Aug 27, 2008 - 22:24:17 »
James,

I'm sure it would be a minority view bordering on infinitesimally small, but I was wondering if it was universally rejected among coC, RM types.
You asked, I answered from what I've seen.  Sorry it didn't fit the expected mold.  (<--btw, not intended as crankily as it might sound)


Quote
Does Hebrew 10 say that there are no other offerings at all?
Nope.  But again, telling what I've seen and known of, which was the question.  Haven't heard a single one call for the supper to be "restored" to an "offering."  There has been a big trend of people quoting JM Hicks to move in the opposite direction from such a thought (altar v. fellowship meal), so it's probably an increasingly less likely probability.

James,

No problem. I was hoping there was some work somewhere on it.

Ken

Offline s1n4m1n

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Re: The Lord's Supper an offering to God
« Reply #8 on: Wed Aug 27, 2008 - 22:44:34 »
Last time I checked, the Eucharist was an extension of the Passover meal.  It's something you eat, not something you sacrifice.   ::bowing::  And it has nothing to do with petitioning for the forgiveness of sins.

Actually the Passover was something they sacrificed, the Paschal Lamb. Many sacrifices involved eating.

If I recall correctly the Passover wasn't a sacrifice for sins but a memorial sacrifice for God freeing Israel from bondage.


Offline DCR

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Re: The Lord's Supper an offering to God
« Reply #9 on: Thu Aug 28, 2008 - 00:20:58 »
Last time I checked, the Eucharist was an extension of the Passover meal.  It's something you eat, not something you sacrifice.   ::bowing::  And it has nothing to do with petitioning for the forgiveness of sins.

Actually the Passover was something they sacrificed, the Paschal Lamb. Many sacrifices involved eating.

If I recall correctly the Passover wasn't a sacrifice for sins but a memorial sacrifice for God freeing Israel from bondage.



Notice that in the Passover, that the sacrifice was done first... then they ate.

The Lord's Supper is in much the same way, isn't it?  The sacrifice was done first (Jesus on the cross).  Then we eat.

I don't know if it's accurate to say that we actually do the sacrifice each time, since that was done once for all.  One difference at work, however, is that they physically sacrificed the lamb each year and then ate the actual meat from the lamb.

Things are a bit different for us in this sense.

da525382

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Re: The Lord's Supper an offering to God
« Reply #10 on: Thu Aug 28, 2008 - 07:54:06 »
I think the more scriptural imagery and centered-ness is that of ourselves being a continuous, "living" sacrifice. 

Offline stevehut

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Re: The Lord's Supper an offering to God
« Reply #11 on: Thu Aug 28, 2008 - 08:56:07 »
I don't know if it's accurate to say that we actually do the sacrifice each time, since that was done once for all. 

Nope.  That's what they do in a Catholic Mass, and it's one of the reasons why John Calvin protested.

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Re: The Lord's Supper an offering to God
« Reply #12 on: Thu Aug 28, 2008 - 11:04:37 »
I think the more scriptural imagery and centered-ness is that of ourselves being a continuous, "living" sacrifice. 

You've nailed it Da, manna to you. 

Offline notofmyown

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Re: The Lord's Supper an offering to God
« Reply #13 on: Thu Aug 28, 2008 - 15:21:34 »
We were studying about communion the past few weeks, its amazing to see the changes in this meal throughout the centuries.... (they don't teach you all this stuff in Sunday School.....thats a plug for your book Ste.) the table being replaced by the "altar"...... we made some serious changes in the way we do this.

Offline Johnb

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Re: The Lord's Supper an offering to God
« Reply #14 on: Thu Aug 28, 2008 - 17:11:47 »
It is my understanding that the LS should be the focal point of the assembly.  Often folks can tell even from the architecture of the building the place the LS has in that assembly.  In some churches It is center and raised to show it importance.  In most denominational churches it is the pulpit that is raised and centered.  In the CoC the baptistery is also raised and centered.  In many denominational churches it is hid in the back and just brought out a few times a year for members only.  I would like to see it back in its rightful place. IMO the focal point of the assembly.

Offline zoonance

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Re: The Lord's Supper an offering to God
« Reply #15 on: Thu Aug 28, 2008 - 17:16:21 »
I was in charge of putting the pews back a few weeks ago following a need for the use of the auditorium and I directed them to be placed in a diamond shape pointing toward the communion table and off the pulpit a bit explaining that we tend to focus and center our attention on the master of ceremonies instead of the table.   (Not sure if the preacher appreciated my remark!)*Two rows on each side of the room slanted so that the people sitting in them face the table. 


Offline James Rondon

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Re: The Lord's Supper an offering to God
« Reply #16 on: Thu Aug 28, 2008 - 18:41:13 »
By centering our attention on the pulpit and the preacher, our attention is then centered on the preaching of the word.

Offline Johnb

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Re: The Lord's Supper an offering to God
« Reply #17 on: Thu Aug 28, 2008 - 20:36:58 »
James said
By centering our attention on the pulpit and the preacher, our attention is then centered on the preaching of the word.

Was a preacher the focal point of the early church assembly?  I read often of the assembly meeting togather to share the LS.  I never read in the NT of the assembly meeting togather for thepurpose of listening to a preacher.  In fact it appears through the NT and historical records that several men taught and spoke in the assembly and it was not dominated by the least effective form of teaching the lecture. 

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Re: The Lord's Supper an offering to God
« Reply #18 on: Thu Aug 28, 2008 - 20:44:27 »
If this focus-on-the-thing-we-value-most was 100% accurate, we'd have the dining area front and center.  ::lookaround::

Offline s1n4m1n

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Re: The Lord's Supper an offering to God
« Reply #19 on: Fri Aug 29, 2008 - 08:33:24 »
We were studying about communion the past few weeks, its amazing to see the changes in this meal throughout the centuries.... (they don't teach you all this stuff in Sunday School.....thats a plug for your book Ste.) the table being replaced by the "altar"...... we made some serious changes in the way we do this.

I dunno, it seems the altar aspect has been there since the beginning. Christ did say "This is my body" and "This is my blood" and the apostle Paul makes a comparison between the Lord's Supper and altar worship (1 Corinthians 10:16-18). Hebrews 13:10 flat out declares that "we have an altar from which those who serve the tabernacle have no right to eat."

Offline Jimbob

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Re: The Lord's Supper an offering to God
« Reply #20 on: Fri Aug 29, 2008 - 08:49:41 »
I was in charge of putting the pews back a few weeks ago following a need for the use of the auditorium and I directed them to be placed in a diamond shape pointing toward the communion table and off the pulpit a bit explaining that we tend to focus and center our attention on the master of ceremonies instead of the table.   (Not sure if the preacher appreciated my remark!)*Two rows on each side of the room slanted so that the people sitting in them face the table. 


It doesn't matter which way you point the pews, Jesus if the MC.

Offline Jimbob

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Re: The Lord's Supper an offering to God
« Reply #21 on: Fri Aug 29, 2008 - 08:50:54 »
If this focus-on-the-thing-we-value-most was 100% accurate, we'd have the dining area front and center.  ::lookaround::
With a salad bar and a three minute timer for that guy to sit down and stop reading his Bible near the hot rolls.

Offline stevehut

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Re: The Lord's Supper an offering to God
« Reply #22 on: Fri Aug 29, 2008 - 09:16:25 »
I directed them to be placed in a diamond shape pointing toward the communion table and off the pulpit a bit explaining that we tend to focus and center our attention on the master of ceremonies instead of the table. 

This has been a controversy of church architecture for centuries.  A lot of churches have the pulpit off to one side, for this very reason.

Some believe the communion is the most important element of worship, others believe it's the preaching of the word (not the MC, in particular.) 

Over the past 10-15 years, many Catholic churches are being remodeled with the altar in the center of the sanctuary, and the pews on all sides facing the altar.  From what I hear, this is done to force the people to look at each other and fellowship -- the very thing that most Cath's have been taught from infancy not to do.

Much ado about nothing, methinks.  Either you're worshipping God, or ya ain't.

Offline zoonance

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Re: The Lord's Supper an offering to God
« Reply #23 on: Fri Aug 29, 2008 - 12:19:09 »
Architecture matters though.  It speaks.    What is it saying?     

Offline Jimbob

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Re: The Lord's Supper an offering to God
« Reply #24 on: Fri Sep 05, 2008 - 09:58:00 »
From what I hear, this is done to force the people to look at each other and fellowship -- the very thing that most Cath's have been taught from infancy not to do.
I suppose this is going off-topic a bit, but I don't think this is accurate that they've been taught not to look at each other and fellowship.  Do you have a reference?

Offline Jimbob

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Re: The Lord's Supper an offering to God
« Reply #25 on: Fri Sep 05, 2008 - 10:03:11 »
Architecture matters though.  It speaks.
Indeed it does, whether intentional or not.

Quote
What is it saying?    


Here's a pic of one I've seen (a CofC preacher took me there to show me the baptistery), what does it say?






Offline Bon Voyage

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Re: The Lord's Supper an offering to God
« Reply #26 on: Fri Sep 05, 2008 - 10:07:44 »
I contend that worship is not the only primary reason for the assembly.

Offline Jimbob

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Re: The Lord's Supper an offering to God
« Reply #27 on: Fri Sep 05, 2008 - 10:08:06 »
We were studying about communion the past few weeks, its amazing to see the changes in this meal throughout the centuries.... (they don't teach you all this stuff in Sunday School.....thats a plug for your book Ste.) the table being replaced by the "altar"...... we made some serious changes in the way we do this.

I dunno, it seems the altar aspect has been there since the beginning. Christ did say "This is my body" and "This is my blood" and the apostle Paul makes a comparison between the Lord's Supper and altar worship (1 Corinthians 10:16-18). Hebrews 13:10 flat out declares that "we have an altar from which those who serve the tabernacle have no right to eat."
Interesting point from Hebrews, Ken.  

Are you considering this (or asking us to consider this) from the pov of the supper being a participation in the sacrifice of Christ on the cross, or the pov of it being a sacrifice more akin to a worship offering/fellowship offering sort of thing, where it was not about propitiation, but celebration and thanksgiving?

Offline Jimbob

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Re: The Lord's Supper an offering to God
« Reply #28 on: Fri Sep 05, 2008 - 10:08:36 »
I contend that worship is not the only primary reason for the assembly.
Agreed.  Care to elaborate?

Offline Bon Voyage

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Re: The Lord's Supper an offering to God
« Reply #29 on: Fri Sep 05, 2008 - 10:10:46 »
I contend that worship is not the only primary reason for the assembly.
Agreed.  Care to elaborate?

Fellowship, the building up of the body, etc.

Offline DCR

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Re: The Lord's Supper an offering to God
« Reply #30 on: Fri Sep 05, 2008 - 10:24:23 »
Here's a pic of one I've seen (a CofC preacher took me there to show me the baptistery), what does it say?

Would you mind saying what kind of church this is where these pictures were made?

Offline DCR

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Re: The Lord's Supper an offering to God
« Reply #31 on: Fri Sep 05, 2008 - 10:27:14 »
I contend that worship is not the only primary reason for the assembly.
Agreed.  Care to elaborate?

Fellowship, the building up of the body, etc.

It could be that our definition of "worship" is more limited than what God has in mind.  It could be said that things you said are ways in which we worship, it seems to me.

Offline Bon Voyage

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Re: The Lord's Supper an offering to God
« Reply #32 on: Fri Sep 05, 2008 - 10:28:49 »
I contend that worship is not the only primary reason for the assembly.
Agreed.  Care to elaborate?

Fellowship, the building up of the body, etc.

It could be that our definition of "worship" is more limited than what God has in mind.  Those things you state are forms of worship, it seems to me.

I won't slam all churches, but a very good percentage do a very poor job with fellowship, building each other up, etc.  The focus seems to be on a "service."

Offline Jimbob

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Re: The Lord's Supper an offering to God
« Reply #33 on: Fri Sep 05, 2008 - 10:54:15 »
Here's a pic of one I've seen (a CofC preacher took me there to show me the baptistery), what does it say?

Would you mind saying what kind of church this is where these pictures were made?
Catholic church in NY.

Offline Jimbob

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Re: The Lord's Supper an offering to God
« Reply #34 on: Fri Sep 05, 2008 - 10:54:44 »
I contend that worship is not the only primary reason for the assembly.
Agreed.  Care to elaborate?

Fellowship, the building up of the body, etc.

It could be that our definition of "worship" is more limited than what God has in mind.  It could be said that things you said are ways in which we worship, it seems to me.
True enough.

 

     
anything