the meaning of "sing"

[blituri]

Revelation 15 was typified when God had rescued Israel, they had been baptized unto Moses, and the "spirit" or pillar guided them. The FIRST thing that happened is that God gave Moses a SONG which he and Aaron RECITED.  Miriam--bitter waters or rebellious, the prototypical usurping women--led the women to ESCAPE and she and they enacted a typical musical ritual of Hathor of whom she was a PROPHETESS (musician) by virtue of being attached to Pharoah's family.

Sistrum , i, n., = seistron, a metallic rattle which was used by the Egyptians in celebrating the rites of Isis, and in other lascivious festivals,-By the Jews, Vulg. 1 Reg. 18, 6 .--Hence sarcastically, as if used for a war - trumpet by the wanton Cleopatra,

Sistratus , a, um, adj. [sistrum] , having or bearing a sistrum: turba,i . e. priests of Isis, Mart. 12, 29, 19 .

The MASCULINE does not sing to a MALE God--to Apollo (Apollyon) being an exception: Moses and the MALES recited this song which was a typical TAUNT or boast song.

"In the first place, it will be noticed from the account of the triumphant rejoicing on the shore of the Red Sea that the men sang only: 'Then sang Moses and the children of Israel this song unto the Lord, and spake saying.'" (Girardeau, George, p. 33)

"In the second place, it was Miriam and the women who used instruments of music on the occasion: 'And Miriam, the prophetess, the sister of Aaron, took a timbrel in her hand; and all the women went after her with timbrels and with dances." (Girardeau, p. 33).

REAL MEN DIDN'T DO THAT UNTIL DAVID ;-)

The spirit OF Christ spoke through the PROPHETS to univerally condemn music as the MARK and CAUSE of rejecting the Word. Otherwise, to prophesy meant to MAKE SELF a prophets in a singing, dancing and musical sense.

Exodus 15:[20] sumpsit ergo Maria prophetis soror Aaron tympanum in manu egressaeque sunt omnes mulieres post eam orgasm tympanis et choris

God will afflict Miriam with leprosy when she claims to speak for God.  The first meaning of prophet in the PAGAN sense meant a charismatic, musical performer.  All dramatic performance is INTERPRETATION which is, according to Paul, just speaking in tongues.

Prophe-ta  I. a foreteller, SOOTHSAYER prophet... oraculorumque interpretes, sacerdotes Aegyptiorum, quos prophetas vocant, [Priestess of Egpt prophetess call out] Aegyptius, propheta primarius

The MUSES in Revelation 18:22 were also Musical Prophesiers whom Jesus will not recognize.

    PHRASE: Aegyptius, propheta primarius

        1.  Aegyptius,
        2.  Prophetai
        3.  Primarius I. one of the first, of the first rank, chief, principal, excellent, remarkable,
        primarius parasitus,

Because of musical idolatry at Mount Sinai the Israelites were DEAF to the Word of God until they turned or converted or were baptized into Christ (2 Cor 3)

As with the BEGINNING TYPE the ending ANTI-TYPE is spiritual and not OF THE FLESH.

In Revelation 15 note what happens:

Rev. 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: [probably figurative to fool the foolish]
        and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark,
        and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass,
        having the harps of God.

The harps of DAVID were created by DAVID: the Harps of God are created by God. We make melody which is well documented to mean "make the heart strings sing."

So my heart laments for Moab like a flute;
it laments like a flute for the men of Kir Hareseth. The wealth they acquired is gone. Je.48:36

My heart laments for Moab like a harp,
my inmost being for Kir Hareseth. Is.16:11

And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.Lu.1:47
Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: Ac.2:26

Hecuba Alas! a dreadful trial is near, it seems, [230] full of mourning, rich in tears. Yes, I too escaped death where death had been my due, and Zeus did not destroy me but is still preserving my life, that I may witness in my misery fresh sorrows surpassing all before. But if the bond may ask the free of things that do not GRIEVE them or WRENCH their heart-strings, you ought to speak in answer to my questions and I ought to hear what you have to say

Those who HOLD the harps of God--a well document symbol of revelation--can GRASP Revelation 15.

Secondly, they HOLD the harps and do not PLAY the harps. 2192.  echo can NEVER mean PLUCK or TWANG.

Echo Keep balanced, keep on guard 9. possess mentally, understand, do you understand? attend! listen!  know of a thing,

Only believers can HOLD: 1907.  epecho, ep-ekh´-o; from 1909 and 2192; to hold upon, i.e. (by implication) to retain; (by extension) to detain; (with implication, of 3563) to pay attention to: -- give (take) heed unto, hold forth, mark, stay.

The SOUNDS LIKE in Revelation 14 are all sounds that TERRORIZE: therefore, the angel to the living says PREACH THE GOSPEL.  Not SING the gospel.

The same Jesus still speaks PARABLES to fool the foolish:

"The Lyre, according to its primary significance, may by the psalmist be used figuratively for the Lord; accordingly to its secondary, for those who continually strike the chords of their souls under the direction of the Choir-master, the Lord. And if the people saved be called the lyre, it will be understood to be in consequence of their giving glory musically, through the inspiration of the Word and the knowledge of God, being struck by the Word so as to produce faith.

"You may take music in another way, as the ecclesiastical symphony at once of the law and the prophets, and the apostles along with the Gospel, and the harmony which obtained in each prophet, in the transitions of the persons. --(Clement of Alexandrian allegorizes instrumental music, Stromata, Book VI, Chapt XI, Ante-Nicene, II, p. 500).

    Rev. 15:3 And they
    sing [ODE] the song of Moses the servant of God,
             and the song of the Lamb,
    SAYING Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

You don't address a MASCULINE GOD with music: that is why Revelation 14 are sounds of JUDGMENT warning the living to PREACH THE GOSPEL.  And Revelation 17 speaks of the Mother of Harlots who uses "lusted after fruits" as also in Amos "baskets of summer FRUITS" and Revelation 18:23-23 identifies the singers and instrument players as SORCERERS: just like the usurping Miriam.

When you RECITE a poetic piece or address a "god" you SING to them. However, just as Moses and Aaron RECITED the Songs, these are

SAYING:  3004. le÷gw lego, leg´-o; a primary verb; properly, to “lay” forth, i.e. (figuratively) relate (in words (usually of systematic or set discourse;

Loquor  [Sanscr. lap-, to talk, whisper; to speak, talk, say (in the lang. of common life,
     in the tone of conversation; A. To speak, declare, show, indicate or express clear.

logik-os A. of or for speaking or speech, opposite to mousikê, D.H. Comp. 11; l. phantasia expressed in speech,

Mousikos II. of persons, skilled in music, musical, III. of things, elegant, delicate, brômata Diox.1 ; professional musicians,  mousikos kai melôn poêtês, hêdion ouden, oude -ôteron Philem.23 ; harmonious [in tune], fitting, trophê

Neither ODE not PSALMOS has ANY musical content:

5603. oide, o-day´; from 103; a chant or “ode” (the general term for any words sung...and 5568 [PSALMOS] still more specially, a Hebrew cantillation): song.

The SAYING with the "harps of God" continues:

Rev 15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name?
        for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee;
        for thy judgments are made manifest.

Paul commanded that we use ONE MIND and ONE MOUTH and "that which is written" as the only way to GLORIFY GOD.

G4352 proskuneō pros-koo-neh'-o From G4314 and probably a derivative of G2965 (meaning to kiss, like a dog licking his master’s hand); to fawn or crouch to, that is, (literally or figuratively) prostrate oneself in homage (do reverence to, adore):--worship

Now, try holding bowls and PLAYING literal harps while you do that.

[James Rondon]

what does "sing" mean?

It means "sing", without any regard to instrumental accompaniment, or lack thereof (the passages in Revelation you cited, when set alongside the usual "sing-only" prooftexts, are a great demonstration of this).

[JERRY C]

good morning!

taking a break between SAP problems.

JB, I like your comment, am I a musician?!
I feel music in my heart; "it thrills soul ..." (to quote an old hymn)
My son and son-in-law have dabbled with a Xn band.
you talk about a guitar "speaking in tongues"!!
sermons instruct; music inspires! (oversimplification)

and, JR, that is the basic point I was suggesting.
much ado about nothing is the RM instrumentation situation.

[DCR]

For those who even bother, let me just point out that any argument with blituri on this issue is futile.  He's quite impervious to any rationale that challenges his views on it.  I have no doubt it is all very crystal clear in his mind... regardless of how unconvincing and bizarre it is to the rest of it.

Those of us who have been here a while know that.  :)

[blituri]

I will be pervious to any command, example, historical reference or spiritual inslight that any church at any time in recorded history saw SINGING as an ACT of liturgy before the year 373.

Even then "melody as tunefulness belongs to the 19th century."

Otherwise, I remain impervious since almost all historical sowing of discord has been over the hallucinated term MUSIC in connection with conducting school of the Bible.

    "The first three centuries of the church witnessed many controversies; some of them concerned themselves directly with music. The most important of these issues were:

        (a) organized versus spontaneous praying and singing;
        (b) scriptural versus extrascriptural poems;
        (c) fusion with Hellenistic music;
        (d) vocal versus instrumental music;
        (e) the rise of monasticism and its influence upon ecclesiastical chant."
        (Interpreter's Dict of the Bible, Music, p. 467).

Da Monks! Da Monks! Da Monks in their idleness began to fiddle with the organ keys and discovered HARMONY after the year 1200.  Da Cappella (goat singers) as the Pope's castratos displaced the FALSETTOS of the Jews and existing Catholics and brought harmony "ORGANUM" into the church for the first time in the 1500s.

After the Catholics could not do what Paul hoped they would do and let the "knife slip" they composed TROUSER SONGS and that is the falsetto we call 'praise singing''

The first problem occurred when the doxologies of the Bible which were like Psalms were replaced by "a great number of spontaneous and highly individualized doxologies."
         However, the non-Biblical responses were ratified and codified
         at the second synod of Vaison in 529.

JUST AS THE SCRIBES AND PHARISEES DUBBED HYPOCRITES BY JESUS displaced the written word with their on dogma specificially to SILENCE the voice of God in the Word....

"The large displacement of the Psalter by other matter of praise in the Protestant Churches during the last one hundred years has been due,
        no so much to the lack of appreciation of the Psalms,
        as to the commercial enterprise of music publishers." (Int Std Bible Ency., Psalms, p. 2494B
 
In church, OPINION TRUMPS TRUTH, In Turkey Holler TRUTH trumps COMMERCE DRIVEN opinions: the imaginations of the human heart is evil continually.

As MUSIC means "to silence the voice of the victim" music was always to take the fight out of the "enemy" who might oppose their holding onto their property...

Hdt.1.155 Heredotus: Cyrus told how to take the FIGHT out of the enemy: [4] But pardon the Lydians, and give them this command so that they not revolt or pose a

    and order them to wear tunics under their cloaks
    and knee-boots on their feet,
    and to teach their sons lyre-playing [kitharizein]
    and song [psallein] and dance
    and shop-keeping [huckstering].
    And quickly, O king,
    you shall see them become women instead of men,
    so that you need not fear them, that they might revolt."

Paul called CORRUPTING THE WORD "selling learning at retail like a huckster."  All recorded history says that MUSIC is to silence the FLEECEES: certainly works doesn't it?

http://www.piney.com/Heredotus1.html

[JERRY C]

For those who even bother, let me just point out that any argument with blituri on this issue is futile.  He's quite impervious to any rationale that challenges his views on it.  I have no doubt it is all very crystal clear in his mind... regardless of how unconvincing and bizarre it is to the rest of it.

Those of us who have been here a while know that.  :)

in all sincerity, and humillity, do you think this applies in this context?!

Proverbs 10:19 (The Message)


19 The more talk, the less truth;
   the wise measure their words.

there was a time in my life when I nebulous and impervious.
but, His awakening me to my ignorance has humbled me, and perhaps re-directed me.

less is better?

[James Rondon]

How about Proverbs 26:4-5?

[JERRY C]

How about Proverbs 26:4-5?

HA!

I am reminded of the sage, Forrest Gump's "...stupid is as stupid does ..."

but, I think I will start a post about less is better; maybe least is best?!

[blituri]

IMpure religion was invented by Orpheus and the Lesbian women: the ultimate of defiling Homer was to take his poetry and set it to rhythmic songa and add instruments.

Clement of Alexander along with all early scholars marks as effeminate the wild rhetoricians, singers and instrument players.  The MARK is absolute and I suppose that calling those who will not PAY TO PLAY stupid may fool the fools.

http://www.piney.com/AnteClHeresVolII.html

Amphion of Thebes and Arion of Methymna were both minstrels, and both were renowned in story. They are celebrated in song to this day in the chorus of the Greeks;

    the one for having allured the fishes, {suckers]
    and the other for having surrounded Thebes with walls [Theaters for holy entertainment]
    by the power of music.

Another, a Thracian, a cunning master of his art (he also is the subject of a Hellenic legend), tamed the wild beasts by the mere might of song; and transplanted trees-oaks-by music.

Also "threskia" or IMpure worship is attributed to Orpheus: The Orphics were one of the SECTS which Paul SILENCED in Romans 14 and outlawed hallucinating music by:
        Outlawing doubtful disputations: songs or sermons derived from humans or humanoidics.
        Outlawing self-pleasure which parses to music
        Directly commanding speaking "that which is written."

Commentary on Vergil, Aeneid. book 6, line 645. [645]
        Orpheus was one of the mythical fathers of song,
        and his name was associated with revelations about the lower world,
        supposed to be preserved by secret societies (Dict. M. Orpheus),
        so that he is naturally made the harper who plays while the blessed spirits dance and sing.

He is called `sacerdos,' as in Hor. A. P. 391 he is called sacer interpresque deorum. The long robe was characteristic of musicians, as Cerda shows, comp. Prop. 3. 23. 16, Pythius in longa carmina veste sonat (of the statue of Apollo in the Palatine temple), and also Hor. A. P. 215, Ov. F. 6. 654, 688, where the long robes of the `tibicines' [flute players] are mentioned and accounted for. `orgasm veste' above v. 359. Elsewhere we have `in veste,' as 12. 169, puraque in veste sacerdos [Magos]

Interpres An agent, broker, explainer, interpreter, priest: Outlawed by Peter as "further expounding." Musical Worship Teams (blasphemy) claim to LEAD yu into the presence of God.

Hermeneus interpreter, expounder, broker. OUTLAWED

Thrêsk-eia , Ion. thrêsk-eiê , hê, ( [thrêskeuô] ) religious worship,
         cult, ritual, tou Apollônos SIG801 D (Delph., i A.D.); [Apollyon and the adulterous muses]
         hê peri tinos th. ib. 867.48 (Ephesus, ii A.D.):  [don't get drunk or PIPED DOWN with wine before singing]
         pl., rites, Hdt.2.37, [Feed]

AND warning of the locusts (cicalas, grasshoppers) as MUSES in John's reference:

I might tell you also the story of another, a brother to these-the subject of a myth, and a minstrel- Eunomos the Locrian and the Pythic grasshopper. A solemn Hellenic assembly had met at Pytho, to celebrate the death of the Pythic serpent, when Eunomos sang the reptile's epitaph.

And Psalm 41 MARKED the Judas Breed as creating "vocal and instrumental praise which was always a way to PANIC the enemy: He cast out the musical minstrels like dung."

Whether his ode was a hymn in praise of the serpent, or a dirge, I am not able to say. But there was a contest, and Eunomos was playing the lyre in the summer time: it was when the grasshoppers, warmed by the sun, were chirping beneath the leaves along the hills; but they were singing not to that dead dragon, but to God All-wise,-a lay unfettered by rule, better than the numbers of Eunomos.

The Locrian breaks a string. The grasshopper sprang on the neck of the instrument, and sang on it as on a branch; and the minstrel, adapting his strain to the grasshopper's song, made up for the want of the missing string. The grasshopper then was attracted by the song of Eunomos, as the fable represents, according to which also a brazen statue of Eunomos with his lyre, and the Locrian's ally in the contest, was erected at Pytho.

But of its own accord it flew to the lyre, and of its own accord sang, and was regarded by the Greeks as a musical performer.

How, let me ask, have you believed vain fables [sermons] and supposed animals to be charmed by music

    while Truth's shining face alone, as would seem appears to you disguised, and is looked on with incredulous eyes?

And so Cithaeron, and Helicon, and the mountains of the Odrysi, and the initiatory rites [Orgies or WRATH] of the Thracians mysteries of deceit, are hallowed and celebrated in hymns.

For me, I am pained at such calamities as form the subjects of tragedy, though but myths; but by you the records of miseries are turned into dramatic compositions.

But the dramas and the RAVING poets, now quite intoxicated, let us crown with ivy; and distracted outright as they are, in Bacchic fashion, with the satyrs, and the frenzied rabble, and the rest of the demon crew, let us confine to Cithaeron and Helicon, now antiquated.

But let us bring from above out of heaven, Truth, with Wisdom in all its brightness, and the sacred prophetic choir, down to the holy mount of God; and let Truth, darting her light to the most distant points, cast her rays all around on those that are involved in darkness, and deliver men from delusion, stretching out her very strong 1 right hand, which is wisdom, for their salvation.

And raising their eyes, and looking above, let them abandon Helicon and Cithaeron [Guitar mountain], and take up their abode in Sion. "For out of Sion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem,"  -the celestial Word, the true athlete crowned in the theatre of the whole universe.

HERE IS SOME REAL RAVING!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J471VobaZks&feature=related