GCM Home | Bible Search | Rules | Donate | Bookstore | RSS | Facebook | Twitter

Author Topic: Why our unity movement failed?  (Read 27842 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Bon Voyage

  • Global Moderator
  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16049
  • Manna: 408
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Why our unity movement failed?
« Reply #105 on: November 15, 2007, 04:39:39 PM »

If the baptism was only to join a denomination, then I would probably agree with you.  But I believe it is more of a red herring than not.

A pink herring then?  ::smile::

Maybe.  It is definitely not as prevalent as some like to make it.

I don't know about Baptists everywhere, but every Baptist individual I know (mostly southern Baptist, but even more so with the independents I know) will defend to the death that they are ONLY baptized for the reason of "joining the church".

I walk among Baptists and I don't hear this. 

Must be yankee Baptists

Certainly a lot would say to be a member, you have to have been baptized in a church of like faith, but not that baptism is ONLY for membership.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Why our unity movement failed?
« Reply #105 on: November 15, 2007, 04:39:39 PM »

Offline Bon Voyage

  • Global Moderator
  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16049
  • Manna: 408
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Why our unity movement failed?
« Reply #106 on: November 15, 2007, 04:40:55 PM »
There are more baptists aroundhere than there are Adkinses (and there are more adkinses than little green frogs), and this isn't what the ones I know say, only what our people say about them. 

Ask one if you can join their church without being baptized into it.

It really depends on the church.  "Baptist" really doesn't have a meaning anymore.  And in some, your baptism would be invalid because it was not in a "church of like faith."  Just like some CofC's would not accept me because I didn't ponder the remission of sins when I got baptized.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Why our unity movement failed?
« Reply #106 on: November 15, 2007, 04:40:55 PM »

Offline marc

  • The Force
  • *********
  • Posts: 27306
  • Manna: 580
  • *text removed*
    • View Profile
Re: Why our unity movement failed?
« Reply #107 on: November 15, 2007, 04:41:03 PM »
There are more baptists aroundhere than there are Adkinses (and there are more adkinses than little green frogs), and this isn't what the ones I know say, only what our people say about them. 

Ask one if you can join their church without being baptized into it.

That would be a non-sequitur.  You said they would say that this was the only reason for being baptized, not simply that baptism was needed to join their church.  Different question.  

Offline Brian Kelley

  • Member of God's one church
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 847
  • Manna: 7
  • Gender: Male
  • Saint Brian
    • View Profile
Re: Why our unity movement failed?
« Reply #108 on: November 15, 2007, 06:05:24 PM »
Doesn't membership to a church that doesn't accept someone who is a baptized believer in Christ defeat the goal of unity anyway?

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Why our unity movement failed?
« Reply #108 on: November 15, 2007, 06:05:24 PM »

Offline marc

  • The Force
  • *********
  • Posts: 27306
  • Manna: 580
  • *text removed*
    • View Profile
Re: Why our unity movement failed?
« Reply #109 on: November 15, 2007, 06:56:38 PM »
Doesn't membership to a church that doesn't accept someone who is a baptized believer in Christ defeat the goal of unity anyway?

And the title of this thread is.... ::applause:: ...congratulations.  We have a winner. 

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Why our unity movement failed?
« Reply #109 on: November 15, 2007, 06:56:38 PM »



Online Jaime

  • (Pronounced Hi-Me, not Ja-Me)
  • Global Moderator
  • King James Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 24904
  • Manna: 522
  • Gender: Male
  • The Oil Patch is Crude
    • View Profile
Re: Why our unity movement failed?
« Reply #110 on: November 15, 2007, 08:43:01 PM »
There are more baptists aroundhere than there are Adkinses (and there are more adkinses than little green frogs), and this isn't what the ones I know say, only what our people say about them. 

Ask one if you can join their church without being baptized into it.

That would be a non-sequitur.  You said they would say that this was the only reason for being baptized, not simply that baptism was needed to join their church.  Different question.  

Yeah I was a little nebulous there. However, my experience with Baptist folks in Texas, they will fight you if salvation is mentioned in the same sentence as Baptism. The way they explain it to me it is a command, but has nothing to do with salvation including the idea of remission of sin. And basically joining a or the church is very much a consumation of the commandment they are obeying in baptism. And since the one's I am aware of require Baptist baptism to be a member then yes Baptism's primary function is for church membership for those Baptists.

Like I said my daughter can not be a member of her husband's father's church, but her husband's baptist baptism would be accepted in our particular church of Christ for membership. Not a traditional c of C, btw.

I love all of my Baptist Brothers, but I do recognize as they do our different view of Baptism. It's just that oddly enough our church of Christ is quite a bit more progressive thinking about accepting others than the Baptist congregations in our community.

Offline peck

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1518
  • Manna: 165
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Why our unity movement failed?
« Reply #111 on: November 16, 2007, 12:04:48 AM »
 Do baptists accept Jesus as Lord...and do they not baptize..Does Jesus' words mean nothing..when he says believe and be baptized...If Jesus had said believe and have an understanding that baptism can save you...It would be different...

God bless,Peck

Offline Howie26

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 66
  • Manna: 3
    • View Profile
Re: Why our unity movement failed?
« Reply #112 on: November 16, 2007, 07:23:26 AM »
Do baptists accept Jesus as Lord...and do they not baptize..Does Jesus' words mean nothing..when he says believe and be baptized...If Jesus had said believe and have an understanding that baptism can save you...It would be different...

God bless,Peck

I think when Jesus said the one who believes and is baptized shall be saved, an understanding of why he is being dunked under the water (i.e. to be saved) is implied.  The point I was trying to make is that it's just water; it's just a dunking in plain water - so, considering our true connection with God is by faith (an inner acceptance of Jesus as Lord), what goes on in our mind as we are baptized is important.  If, in my mind, I think this has nothing to do with salvation, then is it a true faith response to God?

Offline Bon Voyage

  • Global Moderator
  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16049
  • Manna: 408
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Why our unity movement failed?
« Reply #113 on: November 16, 2007, 07:31:58 AM »
Do baptists accept Jesus as Lord...and do they not baptize..Does Jesus' words mean nothing..when he says believe and be baptized...If Jesus had said believe and have an understanding that baptism can save you...It would be different...

God bless,Peck

I think when Jesus said the one who believes and is baptized shall be saved, an understanding of why he is being dunked under the water (i.e. to be saved) is implied.  The point I was trying to make is that it's just water; it's just a dunking in plain water - so, considering our true connection with God is by faith (an inner acceptance of Jesus as Lord), what goes on in our mind as we are baptized is important.  If, in my mind, I think this has nothing to do with salvation, then is it a true faith response to God?

So you don't believe Mark 16:16?

Offline Howie26

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 66
  • Manna: 3
    • View Profile
Re: Why our unity movement failed?
« Reply #114 on: November 16, 2007, 07:53:41 AM »
Gary,

I think I get your question.  Mark 16:15 is the command to the disciples to preach the message of Jesus.  And whoever believes the message and is baptized in demonstration of his belief in that message will be saved.  This is what I understand Mark 16:16 to say.

Online Johnb

  • Global Moderator
  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10295
  • Manna: 149
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Why our unity movement failed?
« Reply #115 on: November 16, 2007, 08:49:39 AM »
The question of baptism came up early in our movement.  When the Stone and Capbell groups merged this question came up.  The Campbells at first wanted to require baptism before one would be recognized as a member.  Stone insisted that it was not necessary to require baptism as a condition of acceptance.  Stone said not 1 in 100 have not been baptised.  He saw this as a stumbling block to unity.  Boy was he right.  The Campbells agreed for the sake of unity. 
Lee the Campbells thought baptism was very important but stopped short of requiring it as a basis of fellowship.

Offline Sherman Nobles

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3294
  • Manna: 272
  • Gender: Male
  • "For God so loved...."
    • View Profile
Re: Why our unity movement failed?
« Reply #116 on: November 16, 2007, 09:17:28 AM »
Faith often implies doing something without understanding why.  Did Abraham understand why God commanded him to sacrifice Isaac?  I think not.  Did Moses understand why God told him to throw down his staff (the first time)? No.  Did the disciples understand why Jesus told them to cast their net on the other side of the boat? Obviously not.

We obey because we trust in the Lord, not because we know or understand why we are doing what He directs us to do.  Obedience is not contingent upon understanding but upon trust.  In fact, faith implies a lack of understanding far more than it implies the need for understanding. 

In my life, most of the time, understanding does not come until after the act of faith.  And sometimes, we never understand.  So obedience is not contingent upon understanding, but obedience is completely dependent upon trust/faith in the one leading us! 

Concerning baptism, I was baptized in the CoC when I was 9 for the forgiveness of sins, and as an expression of faith giving my life to the Lord.  Long-story-short.  Years later, when I was 24, after attending a CoC bible school studying to be a preacher, and preaching for a couple of years, I was challenged concerning the baptism in the Holy Spirit.  I started studying the issue and eventually received the baptism in the Holy Spirit evidenced by tongues, ecstatic praise, and various physical sensations.

A few months later, as I prayed about overcoming a very negative tendency to lust after women, the Lord spoke to me saying, "Well be baptized."  It didn't make sence to me, but I obeyed and was baptized not really understanding why.  Nothing supernatural happened at the baptism that I could tell.  But a couple of days later, I walked past a beautiful young lady in the parkinglot at work.  As I passed by her, I admired her beauty but did not have one lustful thought.  Just days before that I would have struggled terribly to curb the lustful thoughts I was having.  But not that day.  Once I reached the other side of the parkinglot, the Lord spoke to me saying, "Did you see that?"  I responded astutely, "What?"  He said, "You didn't lust after her!"  I could feel the pleasure in His voice!  Well, I had a little dance of praise right there in the parkinglot.  If anyone saw me, they might have thought I was crazy!  But I didn't care, I had been delivered from a stronghold of lust in my life!

So, though I was baptized not knowing why I was being baptized just acting on faith, the power of baptism to deliver me from sinful strongholds was effective in my life - apart from understanding.  So, I encourage all believers to be baptized because of their faith in Christ and He directs such in His Word.

Blessings,
Sherman

Offline Howie26

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 66
  • Manna: 3
    • View Profile
Re: Why our unity movement failed?
« Reply #117 on: November 16, 2007, 09:50:28 AM »
Faith often implies doing something without understanding why.  Did Abraham understand why God commanded him to sacrifice Isaac?  I think not.  Did Moses understand why God told him to throw down his staff (the first time)? No.  Did the disciples understand why Jesus told them to cast their net on the other side of the boat? Obviously not.

We obey because we trust in the Lord, not because we know or understand why we are doing what He directs us to do.  Obedience is not contingent upon understanding but upon trust.  In fact, faith implies a lack of understanding far more than it implies the need for understanding.

I am trying to follow this line of thinking as I try to express my point of view.  Let me use this phrase that "faith implies a lack of understanding" and apply it to baptism:

Person 1 says, "I do not understand why we receive forgiveness of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit at the point of baptism (Acts 2:38), but I trust that when I submit to it, I will receive those promises."

Person 2 says, "I do not understand why Acts 2:38 says that we receive forgiveness of sins and the gift of the HOly Spirit at the point of baptism; therefore, since I don't understand it, I reject it.  I will be baptized, but not in order to receive forgiveness."

Which one is an example true faith?


Offline Sherman Nobles

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3294
  • Manna: 272
  • Gender: Male
  • "For God so loved...."
    • View Profile
Re: Why our unity movement failed?
« Reply #118 on: November 16, 2007, 10:18:35 AM »
Actually, both are an example of faith.  We trust the Lord and therefore we obey, whether we understand what that particular scripture means or not.  People understand that scripture differently.  Of course, most in the CoC focus on being baptized "for" the forgiveness of sins, though "eis" is the Greek word and does not specifically mean "for" but can also mean "because of" or "with respect to".   And many even stop at vs. 38 and do not even mention the "gift of the Holy Spirit" when quoting that verse, just arguing over baptism's connection with the forgiveness of sins.  And that's people that have studied the word all of their lives.  The new believer is really clueless and dependent upon those who are discipling him/her.

Offline janine

  • Guardian-Patroller of Lee's Outer Darkness
  • Global Moderator
  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14001
  • Manna: 370
  • Gender: Female
  • Good Stuff
    • View Profile
Re: Why our unity movement failed?
« Reply #119 on: November 16, 2007, 10:21:36 AM »
Well, thank God the Spirit shows up to do His part whether or not you realize He will.