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Author Topic: Why our unity movement failed?  (Read 28918 times)

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Offline Bon Voyage

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Re: Why our unity movement failed?
« Reply #105 on: Thu Nov 15, 2007 - 17:39:39 »

If the baptism was only to join a denomination, then I would probably agree with you.  But I believe it is more of a red herring than not.

A pink herring then?  ::smile::

Maybe.  It is definitely not as prevalent as some like to make it.

I don't know about Baptists everywhere, but every Baptist individual I know (mostly southern Baptist, but even more so with the independents I know) will defend to the death that they are ONLY baptized for the reason of "joining the church".

I walk among Baptists and I don't hear this. 

Must be yankee Baptists

Certainly a lot would say to be a member, you have to have been baptized in a church of like faith, but not that baptism is ONLY for membership.

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Re: Why our unity movement failed?
« Reply #105 on: Thu Nov 15, 2007 - 17:39:39 »

Offline Bon Voyage

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Re: Why our unity movement failed?
« Reply #106 on: Thu Nov 15, 2007 - 17:40:55 »
There are more baptists aroundhere than there are Adkinses (and there are more adkinses than little green frogs), and this isn't what the ones I know say, only what our people say about them. 

Ask one if you can join their church without being baptized into it.

It really depends on the church.  "Baptist" really doesn't have a meaning anymore.  And in some, your baptism would be invalid because it was not in a "church of like faith."  Just like some CofC's would not accept me because I didn't ponder the remission of sins when I got baptized.

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Re: Why our unity movement failed?
« Reply #106 on: Thu Nov 15, 2007 - 17:40:55 »

marc

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Re: Why our unity movement failed?
« Reply #107 on: Thu Nov 15, 2007 - 17:41:03 »
There are more baptists aroundhere than there are Adkinses (and there are more adkinses than little green frogs), and this isn't what the ones I know say, only what our people say about them. 

Ask one if you can join their church without being baptized into it.

That would be a non-sequitur.  You said they would say that this was the only reason for being baptized, not simply that baptism was needed to join their church.  Different question.  

Offline Brian Kelley

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Re: Why our unity movement failed?
« Reply #108 on: Thu Nov 15, 2007 - 19:05:24 »
Doesn't membership to a church that doesn't accept someone who is a baptized believer in Christ defeat the goal of unity anyway?

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Re: Why our unity movement failed?
« Reply #108 on: Thu Nov 15, 2007 - 19:05:24 »

marc

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Re: Why our unity movement failed?
« Reply #109 on: Thu Nov 15, 2007 - 19:56:38 »
Doesn't membership to a church that doesn't accept someone who is a baptized believer in Christ defeat the goal of unity anyway?

And the title of this thread is.... ::applause:: ...congratulations.  We have a winner. 

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Re: Why our unity movement failed?
« Reply #109 on: Thu Nov 15, 2007 - 19:56:38 »



Offline Jaime

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Re: Why our unity movement failed?
« Reply #110 on: Thu Nov 15, 2007 - 21:43:01 »
There are more baptists aroundhere than there are Adkinses (and there are more adkinses than little green frogs), and this isn't what the ones I know say, only what our people say about them. 

Ask one if you can join their church without being baptized into it.

That would be a non-sequitur.  You said they would say that this was the only reason for being baptized, not simply that baptism was needed to join their church.  Different question.  

Yeah I was a little nebulous there. However, my experience with Baptist folks in Texas, they will fight you if salvation is mentioned in the same sentence as Baptism. The way they explain it to me it is a command, but has nothing to do with salvation including the idea of remission of sin. And basically joining a or the church is very much a consumation of the commandment they are obeying in baptism. And since the one's I am aware of require Baptist baptism to be a member then yes Baptism's primary function is for church membership for those Baptists.

Like I said my daughter can not be a member of her husband's father's church, but her husband's baptist baptism would be accepted in our particular church of Christ for membership. Not a traditional c of C, btw.

I love all of my Baptist Brothers, but I do recognize as they do our different view of Baptism. It's just that oddly enough our church of Christ is quite a bit more progressive thinking about accepting others than the Baptist congregations in our community.

Offline peck

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Re: Why our unity movement failed?
« Reply #111 on: Fri Nov 16, 2007 - 01:04:48 »
 Do baptists accept Jesus as Lord...and do they not baptize..Does Jesus' words mean nothing..when he says believe and be baptized...If Jesus had said believe and have an understanding that baptism can save you...It would be different...

God bless,Peck

Offline Howie26

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Re: Why our unity movement failed?
« Reply #112 on: Fri Nov 16, 2007 - 08:23:26 »
Do baptists accept Jesus as Lord...and do they not baptize..Does Jesus' words mean nothing..when he says believe and be baptized...If Jesus had said believe and have an understanding that baptism can save you...It would be different...

God bless,Peck

I think when Jesus said the one who believes and is baptized shall be saved, an understanding of why he is being dunked under the water (i.e. to be saved) is implied.  The point I was trying to make is that it's just water; it's just a dunking in plain water - so, considering our true connection with God is by faith (an inner acceptance of Jesus as Lord), what goes on in our mind as we are baptized is important.  If, in my mind, I think this has nothing to do with salvation, then is it a true faith response to God?

Offline Bon Voyage

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Re: Why our unity movement failed?
« Reply #113 on: Fri Nov 16, 2007 - 08:31:58 »
Do baptists accept Jesus as Lord...and do they not baptize..Does Jesus' words mean nothing..when he says believe and be baptized...If Jesus had said believe and have an understanding that baptism can save you...It would be different...

God bless,Peck

I think when Jesus said the one who believes and is baptized shall be saved, an understanding of why he is being dunked under the water (i.e. to be saved) is implied.  The point I was trying to make is that it's just water; it's just a dunking in plain water - so, considering our true connection with God is by faith (an inner acceptance of Jesus as Lord), what goes on in our mind as we are baptized is important.  If, in my mind, I think this has nothing to do with salvation, then is it a true faith response to God?

So you don't believe Mark 16:16?

Offline Howie26

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Re: Why our unity movement failed?
« Reply #114 on: Fri Nov 16, 2007 - 08:53:41 »
Gary,

I think I get your question.  Mark 16:15 is the command to the disciples to preach the message of Jesus.  And whoever believes the message and is baptized in demonstration of his belief in that message will be saved.  This is what I understand Mark 16:16 to say.

Offline Johnb

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Re: Why our unity movement failed?
« Reply #115 on: Fri Nov 16, 2007 - 09:49:39 »
The question of baptism came up early in our movement.  When the Stone and Capbell groups merged this question came up.  The Campbells at first wanted to require baptism before one would be recognized as a member.  Stone insisted that it was not necessary to require baptism as a condition of acceptance.  Stone said not 1 in 100 have not been baptised.  He saw this as a stumbling block to unity.  Boy was he right.  The Campbells agreed for the sake of unity. 
Lee the Campbells thought baptism was very important but stopped short of requiring it as a basis of fellowship.

Offline Sherman Nobles

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Re: Why our unity movement failed?
« Reply #116 on: Fri Nov 16, 2007 - 10:17:28 »
Faith often implies doing something without understanding why.  Did Abraham understand why God commanded him to sacrifice Isaac?  I think not.  Did Moses understand why God told him to throw down his staff (the first time)? No.  Did the disciples understand why Jesus told them to cast their net on the other side of the boat? Obviously not.

We obey because we trust in the Lord, not because we know or understand why we are doing what He directs us to do.  Obedience is not contingent upon understanding but upon trust.  In fact, faith implies a lack of understanding far more than it implies the need for understanding. 

In my life, most of the time, understanding does not come until after the act of faith.  And sometimes, we never understand.  So obedience is not contingent upon understanding, but obedience is completely dependent upon trust/faith in the one leading us! 

Concerning baptism, I was baptized in the CoC when I was 9 for the forgiveness of sins, and as an expression of faith giving my life to the Lord.  Long-story-short.  Years later, when I was 24, after attending a CoC bible school studying to be a preacher, and preaching for a couple of years, I was challenged concerning the baptism in the Holy Spirit.  I started studying the issue and eventually received the baptism in the Holy Spirit evidenced by tongues, ecstatic praise, and various physical sensations.

A few months later, as I prayed about overcoming a very negative tendency to lust after women, the Lord spoke to me saying, "Well be baptized."  It didn't make sence to me, but I obeyed and was baptized not really understanding why.  Nothing supernatural happened at the baptism that I could tell.  But a couple of days later, I walked past a beautiful young lady in the parkinglot at work.  As I passed by her, I admired her beauty but did not have one lustful thought.  Just days before that I would have struggled terribly to curb the lustful thoughts I was having.  But not that day.  Once I reached the other side of the parkinglot, the Lord spoke to me saying, "Did you see that?"  I responded astutely, "What?"  He said, "You didn't lust after her!"  I could feel the pleasure in His voice!  Well, I had a little dance of praise right there in the parkinglot.  If anyone saw me, they might have thought I was crazy!  But I didn't care, I had been delivered from a stronghold of lust in my life!

So, though I was baptized not knowing why I was being baptized just acting on faith, the power of baptism to deliver me from sinful strongholds was effective in my life - apart from understanding.  So, I encourage all believers to be baptized because of their faith in Christ and He directs such in His Word.

Blessings,
Sherman

Offline Howie26

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Re: Why our unity movement failed?
« Reply #117 on: Fri Nov 16, 2007 - 10:50:28 »
Faith often implies doing something without understanding why.  Did Abraham understand why God commanded him to sacrifice Isaac?  I think not.  Did Moses understand why God told him to throw down his staff (the first time)? No.  Did the disciples understand why Jesus told them to cast their net on the other side of the boat? Obviously not.

We obey because we trust in the Lord, not because we know or understand why we are doing what He directs us to do.  Obedience is not contingent upon understanding but upon trust.  In fact, faith implies a lack of understanding far more than it implies the need for understanding.

I am trying to follow this line of thinking as I try to express my point of view.  Let me use this phrase that "faith implies a lack of understanding" and apply it to baptism:

Person 1 says, "I do not understand why we receive forgiveness of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit at the point of baptism (Acts 2:38), but I trust that when I submit to it, I will receive those promises."

Person 2 says, "I do not understand why Acts 2:38 says that we receive forgiveness of sins and the gift of the HOly Spirit at the point of baptism; therefore, since I don't understand it, I reject it.  I will be baptized, but not in order to receive forgiveness."

Which one is an example true faith?


Offline Sherman Nobles

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Re: Why our unity movement failed?
« Reply #118 on: Fri Nov 16, 2007 - 11:18:35 »
Actually, both are an example of faith.  We trust the Lord and therefore we obey, whether we understand what that particular scripture means or not.  People understand that scripture differently.  Of course, most in the CoC focus on being baptized "for" the forgiveness of sins, though "eis" is the Greek word and does not specifically mean "for" but can also mean "because of" or "with respect to".   And many even stop at vs. 38 and do not even mention the "gift of the Holy Spirit" when quoting that verse, just arguing over baptism's connection with the forgiveness of sins.  And that's people that have studied the word all of their lives.  The new believer is really clueless and dependent upon those who are discipling him/her.

Offline janine

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Re: Why our unity movement failed?
« Reply #119 on: Fri Nov 16, 2007 - 11:21:36 »
Well, thank God the Spirit shows up to do His part whether or not you realize He will.

Offline Howie26

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Re: Why our unity movement failed?
« Reply #120 on: Fri Nov 16, 2007 - 11:35:53 »
Quote
The new believer is really clueless and dependent upon those who are discipling him/her.

I don't think you give people enough credit here.  You cannot be clueless and accept the message of Jesus.  There are things you have to know in order to have faith and respond.

Also, is it possible that there are "believers" out there who know what the SCriptures say and deliberately twist it for their own use (2 peter 3:16)?  Is there ever a time when people are following false teachings that will lead to their condemnation (Matthew 7:21-23)?

I worry about a kind of unity that says, "Anything goes...as long as you're sincere."

Offline janine

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Re: Why our unity movement failed?
« Reply #121 on: Fri Nov 16, 2007 - 11:42:03 »
People need to figure out what they mean by "unity" and what they want to do with it once they define it.

Offline Sherman Nobles

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Re: Why our unity movement failed?
« Reply #122 on: Fri Nov 16, 2007 - 12:11:46 »
Well, thank God the Spirit shows up to do His part whether or not you realize He will.

Amen!

Offline Sherman Nobles

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Re: Why our unity movement failed?
« Reply #123 on: Fri Nov 16, 2007 - 12:22:25 »
Quote
The new believer is really clueless and dependent upon those who are discipling him/her.

I don't think you give people enough credit here.  You cannot be clueless and accept the message of Jesus.  There are things you have to know in order to have faith and respond.

Also, is it possible that there are "believers" out there who know what the SCriptures say and deliberately twist it for their own use (2 peter 3:16)?  Is there ever a time when people are following false teachings that will lead to their condemnation (Matthew 7:21-23)?

I worry about a kind of unity that says, "Anything goes...as long as you're sincere."

When the good news of God's love is preached, people receive Christ by faith in God's love.  Really the gospel can be summed up in Jn.3.16, the "Hope Diamond" of the scriptures as Max Lucado calls it. 

Of course there are false teachers out there that teach that Jesus is not The Christ the Son of the Living God.  And these people attempt to convince people of such evil.  So, "Anything goes...as long as you're sincere." is just not true.  Some people promote doing drugs and having spiritual experiences that way.  Of course, there is a lot of bad teaching and people leading others down paths of destruction.

But I believe the Gospel is really very simple and can be boiled down to "For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten Son, so that whoever believes in Him will not perish, but have everlasting life."  Jesus is the Gospel!

Concerning believers deliberately twisting scripture for their own purposes, I think we are all far more wicked and twisted than we realize.  We all are selfish and every thing we say and do is polluted by our selfishness.  And but for the grace of God, none of us would be saved!   I have been forgiven and recieved much grace; therfore I am quick to forgive others and walk in much grace towards them.  Truth is: I'm a mess and everyone I know is a mess!  The problem is: Sometimes I think others are a bigger mess than I am. 

Offline Howie26

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Re: Why our unity movement failed?
« Reply #124 on: Fri Nov 16, 2007 - 14:56:23 »
Sherman,

I appreciate that response, and it helps me to know that about you.  I have not been on this site for very long; just getting to know the thinking of some; and I love this format where anyone can say what he or she thinks.  I grew up in a church with an "our way or the highway" kind of leadership.  I reject that as radical-ism.  A healthy church environment is when people can express differing views and there still be the same level of love for each other.

I also reject another kind of radical-ism that implies it is wrong to correct people who have false views.  2 Tim. 3:16 tells us SCripture is for teaching us the right way to think and for correcting wrong thinking.  I think that if people have false views regarding matters such as baptism, we do them a disservice if we say, "That's okay that you think that; just as long as you believe in Jesus."  Really, I think it is genuine faith that compels us, once we've learned better, to change the way we think or act.  Now, how all that plays out in terms of unity, acceptance, etc., is truly a matter of wisdom, humility, and discernment.  And I welcome your prayers for me in this regard.

Offline Sherman Nobles

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Re: Why our unity movement failed?
« Reply #125 on: Fri Nov 16, 2007 - 15:59:57 »
Howie,

I appreciate your post and your passion to grow.  I been shown to be so radically wrong in many of my beliefs that I've come to trust in God all the more.  My trust is in Him to lead me into truth, and thankfully salvation is not dependent upon having all your doctrine correct, but upon faith in the finished work of Christ.  Also, salvation for me is not just a future hope, but it's a present reality with a future hope.  I am saved, acceptable to God, born of His Spirit, and seated with Christ in Heaven NOW, and I have a future hope of a greater realization of this present reality.   Salvation is the establishment of a very personal real relationship with the Lord.

Concerning correcting wrong thinking, absolutely we should be involved in discussing scripture and learning with and from eachother.  As you mentioned though, such has far more to do with our attitudes than it does with our knowledge or skill.  If we are humble, recognizing just how much of a mess we are, then we are open to what others share, even though it is radically different than what we've believed all of our lives.  However, the more pridiful we are, the more closed minded we are. 

We should be like the Bereans who 1, eagerly received the radical new information that Paul preached, and 2, were dilligent to study the scriptures to verify what he said was true.  Openness and Diligence - two keys to really growing in the Word.  And Openness requires both humility and faith. Humility - accurate assesment of one's own need of God. & Faith - both a faith in God to teach us and lead us into truth.  And an openness and/or trust in other people.  If we think everyone is wicked except us, then we are both prideful and deceived. 

Of course, opennes doesn't mean we are gullible; we need to have a healthy caution, but we don't need to be suspicious or fearful.  One of the assumptions that I have about myself is I assume that I am wrong in places, have errant doctrine, and need God to reveal the truth to me.  Thus I am quick to listen to what others say even though it's radically different than what I currently believe.  And even more so, I'm learning to listen for what i call, the Ring of Truth.  Truth has a "ring" to it. It reasonates deep inside your heart and has a power all on its own. 

Well, I'm just rambling.  I do pray that you and we all will be increasingly filled with God's Spirit and that we may come to an increased understanding of just how marvelous God's love and grace is towards us.

Blessings,
Sherman

Offline janine

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Re: Why our unity movement failed?
« Reply #126 on: Fri Nov 16, 2007 - 16:03:48 »
That thread title irks me every time I see it.

I don't think our unity movement has failed.  It's still in progress.

Did Jesus' movement, the one He started with teaching and healing and a great Passover meal in an upper room -- did that movement fail?  Why or why not?

Offline Sherman Nobles

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Re: Why our unity movement failed?
« Reply #127 on: Fri Nov 16, 2007 - 16:09:29 »
Yep, it aint over until the fat lady sings!    ::noworries::

Offline Johnb

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Re: Why our unity movement failed?
« Reply #128 on: Fri Nov 16, 2007 - 16:47:33 »
Perhaps there will be another "great awaking"  and a new unity movement that does finally work. But looking at the mass division in our movement I would say the fat lady sung.  Our unity movement has failed.  Later Johnb

Offline Brian Kelley

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Re: Why our unity movement failed?
« Reply #129 on: Fri Nov 16, 2007 - 16:55:23 »
I can share my own observations.  I don't know much about how the Church of Christ works.  I don't even know if we have one here in Augusta, GA.  However, I do know that most people around here regard the Church of Christ as just another minor denomination, and I've not heard anything different until I got to this site.  Not sure if that sheds any light on it or not, just some observations.

Offline peck

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Re: Why our unity movement failed?
« Reply #130 on: Sat Nov 17, 2007 - 02:05:24 »
In my opinion..We have faith as a unifing element..If our foundation is upon the rock that Jesus is the son of God...We are in a state of unity..

Religion is another thing...After we accept Jesus as Lord..It becomes a process...not faith..but an organization of our faith..

We all read the same verses but human weakness may cause variations of discernment..We don't agree with everyone's perception but we do agree with the words written on the pages of the bible..It's human effort to establish religion ...

But in my opinion,the rock that Jesus said he will build his church on, is not religion but faith in the work of God's son..then religion..The 1st century church was weak in religion but grace kept them safe ...but also grace taught them a better way...We can teach a better way to each other but to claim the kingdom of heaven for our own because we think we have the absolute truth is in bad taste..

Jesus remains the same and his work on earth is done..but religion is wishy washy...I was in a congregation that taught giving to orphans out of the church treasury was a sin..finally,I left because of religion(they do give an answer for their belief)..but in my opinion they organized their religion differently than myself...

But when I left,Jesus and his work stayed...and when I entered another  congregation.. Jesus and his work was there...Some folks rely on religion to save them after faith and gives them an excuse to put down the ministries of others...mainly brotherhood papers..

Just my thoughts and only what the bible means to me

God bless,Peck

Offline janine

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Re: Why our unity movement failed?
« Reply #131 on: Sat Nov 17, 2007 - 04:28:28 »
Hah, Brian, I'm sure your area in Georgia is crawling with folks connected to Restoration Movement churches. 

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Re: Why our unity movement failed?
« Reply #132 on: Sat Nov 17, 2007 - 04:43:45 »
Hah, Brian, I'm sure your area in Georgia is crawling with folks connected to Restoration Movement churches. 
Could be.  I don't know the difference, to tell you the truth.  Most churches around here have "baptist" in their name, whether they're affiliated with any baptist denomination or not.

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Re: Why our unity movement failed?
« Reply #133 on: Wed Aug 06, 2008 - 17:10:25 »
Just thought I would bump this to the top to get the discussion started on this new forum.  Did our unity movement fail?  Has the unity movement simply spread from us to the church at large?  Is unity still a noble goal?

Offline Imabear

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Re: Why our unity movement failed?
« Reply #134 on: Wed Aug 06, 2008 - 19:33:35 »
I don't know if this thread referring to unity among yourselves (CoC), or unity among the broader spectrum of Christians.
 
Unity is not the same as uniformity.  Diversity is a good thing. 
How would you feel if all the churches in your area had the same style service as the others?  (Maybe a style you don't "appreciate")
 
Some on these forums have referred to a reawakening in the Church.  This reawakening is not confined to individual groups (denominations).  Sure many will hold back, but God is moving in the hearts of those who are open to listening to His voice.  I see people from different backgrounds holding to slightly different doctrines working together to advance His kingdom... to be His hands and feet in their communities and around the world.  This is something we can all take part in.
 

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Re: Why our unity movement failed?
« Reply #135 on: Wed Aug 06, 2008 - 20:27:13 »
I don't think our unity movement failed; I think our methods failed.  But I believe the movement toward unity is taking hold now beyond our borders and that many of our congregations will join in.  We have the structure for this in place. 

And yes, I think that we can hold on to something of our identity while having unity with others. 

Offline phoebe

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Re: Why our unity movement failed?
« Reply #136 on: Thu Aug 07, 2008 - 09:16:37 »
Calling oneself a new institution is inherently divisive.

We should strive not to create something new, but to truly unite the denominations.  Invite people from all denominations to meet together.  Something to that effect.

We probably need to refrain from using devisive words like denomination (which refers to a division of the body of Christ)
That's why I suggested uniting them.  We shouldn't be afraid of the word, but of the division.  The denominations (divisions) exist, whether we like it or not.  We should work to unite the divisions, rather than keep them divided by avoiding them.

I guess that word denomination is a sore spot with me. "To ask someone which denomination you go to," is in reality literally saying, "which part of Christ's divided body do you attend?"

I know the intention is innocent enough, but I do wish there was a better way to verbalize it rather than using a synonym for division.  Maybe something like "what flavor of Christian are you?"

 ::shrug::

In my church of Christ upbringing, denomination, is sadly synonymous with false teachers.

Interesting. To me, it's like going to Europe and someone, seeing that I am American, asks me what state I live in. Not a big deal. I don't see them as divisions, but as parts that make the whole, like 50 states comprise the U.S.

I recognize that most denoms have Jesus as the Christ at the center of all their beliefs. That is the uniter-factor. Unity and uniformity are two very different things.

Being the properly raised CoC child, I was taught to (brainwashed into) believing that the CoC is not a denom. I was an adult in my 30's before I knew better. And even as I knew better, I still bristled at the question on the hospital patient admit form "What denomination?" Saying "Christian", as opposed to Jew of Buddhist or Muslim, didn't mean the same thing on paper that it meant to me. That was then. Now the question doesn't bother me. I'm glad it's asked! Now I say "Christ-follower",  and ::smile:: . It can't be checked on the form. It has to be written in.

There was a great line from "My Big Fat Greek Wedding". Something like not letting her 'Greekness' define her, but become part of who she is. I like that. I think it applies to those of us who love our heritage in the CoC, but want to grow it into something more.

Our SOF includes both names, "Christ Community Church" and "Church of Christ". It accurately defines us, but not in the way most people think. It doesn't define us, but is part of who we are.

Offline Johnb

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Re: Why our unity movement failed?
« Reply #137 on: Thu Aug 07, 2008 - 09:24:42 »
Marc said
I don't think our unity movement failed; I think our methods failed.  But I believe the movement toward unity is taking hold now beyond our borders and that many of our congregations will join in.  We have the structure for this in place. 

And yes, I think that we can hold on to something of our identity while having unity with others. 


Marc you make a good point.  When our movement started almost ever group claimed to have exclusive truth and would not reconized or fellowship one another.  While the rest of believers have come to accept one another and some of our group claim to have exclusive truth.  I also agree with the second statement.  I think that is why I ended up in the DoC.

Offline Lee Freeman

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Re: Why our unity movement failed?
« Reply #138 on: Thu Aug 07, 2008 - 09:30:47 »
I have researched and wondered over the years as to why our 19th century unity movement failed.  I was intended to be a unity movement.

    PROP. 1. THAT the church of Christ upon earth is essentially,
     intentionally, and constitutionally one; consisting of all those in
   every place that profess their faith in Christ and obedience to him
   in all things according to the scriptures, and that manifest the same
   by their tempers and conduct, and of none else as none else can be
   truly and properly called christians.
From Thomas Campbells declaration and address.

Here are some of the reasons I believe it failed.

1.  It was turned into a restoration movement

2. Campbell's theology was turned into a ridged pattern theology.

3. Men's desire for an intitution and power and authority.

4. The inability to understand God's grace

What think ye?  Later Johnb 

I think me that ye speaketh aright. Thou has verily hit the nail upon the head.

Our Movement became exactly the very kind of exclusivist, sectarian group that Stone and the Campbells were trying to get away from. We traded grace and inclusiveness for law and exclusiveness.

Pax.

Offline Barabbas

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Re: Why our unity movement failed?
« Reply #139 on: Thu Aug 07, 2008 - 10:22:18 »
I have researched and wondered over the years as to why our 19th century unity movement failed.  I was intended to be a unity movement.

    PROP. 1. THAT the church of Christ upon earth is essentially,
     intentionally, and constitutionally one; consisting of all those in
   every place that profess their faith in Christ and obedience to him
   in all things according to the scriptures, and that manifest the same
   by their tempers and conduct, and of none else as none else can be
   truly and properly called christians.
From Thomas Campbells declaration and address.

Here are some of the reasons I believe it failed.

1.  It was turned into a restoration movement

2. Campbell's theology was turned into a ridged pattern theology.

3. Men's desire for an intitution and power and authority.

4. The inability to understand God's grace

What think ye?  Later Johnb 

I think me that ye speaketh aright. Thou has verily hit the nail upon the head.

Our Movement became exactly the very kind of exclusivist, sectarian group that Stone and the Campbells were trying to get away from. We traded grace and inclusiveness for law and exclusiveness.

Pax.
 

I think Campbell believed in restoration from the very beginning as evidenced by his preface in his tome "The Christian System" that I have referred to before:

SINCE the full development of the great apostacy foretold by Prophets and Apostles, numerous attempts at reformation have been made. Three full centuries, carrying with them the destinies of countless millions, have passed into eternity since the Lutheran effort to dethrone the Man of Sin. During this period many great and wonderful changes have taken place in the political, literary, moral, and religious conditions of society. That the nations composing the western half of the Roman empire have already been greatly benefited by that effort, scientifically, politically, and morally, no person acquainted with either political or ecclesiastical history can reasonably doubt. Time, that great arbiter of human actions, that great revealer of secrets, has long decided that all the reformers of the Papacy have been public benefactors. And thus the Protestant Reformation is proved to have been one of the most splendid eras in the history of the world, and must long be regarded by the philosopher and the philanthropist as one of the most gracious interpositions in behalf of the whole human race.

Campbell's theology was provincial enough that in effect he was only talking to the Protestant divisions - RCC and Orthodox be damned.  Belief in the "great Apostacy" was a foregone conclusion in these Protestant camps and Campbell was only talking to them.  Campbell might have not been as rigid as some of his successors - but the seeds of sectarianism were there in the beginning.

 

     
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