Why our unity movement failed?

[marc]

Guest-teaching the adult Bible class Sunday, I asked if people knew who Barton Stone was.  One person raised her hand.  I then asked who knew who Alexander Campbell was, and everyone's hand went up.

Kind of interesting, if expected.  While we're in a state that partially owes its existence to Mr. Campbell, Mr. Stone actually lived closer to our congregation.  But Campbell triumphed, I guess.

______________

btw, a comment about the guest preacher for meeting thing: why do we insist on advertising the guest preacher's hometown?  I never got that.  Come to a soul-stirring series of Gospel Meetings with Brother John Bean of Rutabega, Georgia.

Man, I wasn't going to come, but then you mentioned he's from Rutabega!  I'm impressed.

I've noticed that Southern Gospel groups advertise their appearances the same way.

[stevehut]

Generally speaking, I believe it's a good idea for someone other than the regular minister to preach now and then.  Otherwise, the people are tempted to idolize the preacher because they can't imagine the congregation without him.

Also, most preachers don't spend their whole career.  Or if nothing else, they eventually die.  So if you have a guest preacher from time to time, it helps the people adjust in a transition.

Or how about this?  In any congregation of over 20 members, surely there must be a (lay)man who can pinch-hit in the pulpit occasionally.

[Mere Nick]

Generally speaking, I believe it's a good idea for someone other than the regular minister to preach now and then.  Otherwise, the people are tempted to idolize the preacher because they can't imagine the congregation without him.

Also, most preachers don't spend their whole career.  Or if nothing else, they eventually die.  So if you have a guest preacher from time to time, it helps the people adjust in a transition.

Or how about this?  In any congregation of over 20 members, surely there must be a (lay)man who can pinch-hit in the pulpit occasionally.

It's not that I have a problem with other folks getting up there, but if you are doing something like a "gospel meeting" or a "revival" and trying to attract locals, it seems better to have the regular guy.

[marc]

...or maybe the guy from the Methodist church up the road? 

[Mere Nick]

A Methodist preacher at a COC gospel meeting?  Yeah, sometime after Nancy Pelosi is the Republican nominee for president.

[zoonance]

Generally speaking, I believe it's a good idea for someone other than the regular minister to preach now and then.  Otherwise, the people are tempted to idolize the preacher because they can't imagine the congregation without him.

Also, most preachers don't spend their whole career.  Or if nothing else, they eventually die.  So if you have a guest preacher from time to time, it helps the people adjust in a transition.

Or how about this?  In any congregation of over 20 members, surely there must be a (lay)man who can pinch-hit in the pulpit occasionally.

I idolize your Stevie and can't imagine the Forum without you!

[DCR]

Or how about this?  In any congregation of over 20 members, surely there must be a (lay)man who can pinch-hit in the pulpit occasionally.

Here's the irony, though, based on my experience.  It seems like the bigger the congregation is, the less likely it is that a regular guy in the pews with no official position will ever preach.  At bigger congregations, there are "associate ministers" who fill in when the main guy is out... or else guest speakers are invited to come out.

At some of the much smaller churches I've been to, if the regular minister happened to be out, then someone else within the congregation might be asked to speak, who otherwise may have no official anything other than being a regular attendee of that congregation.

There are actually some "Mutual Edification" CofCs that are opposed to located preachers.  They just rotate who does the preaching and teaching.

[marc]

A Methodist preacher at a COC gospel meeting?  Yeah, sometime after Nancy Pelosi is the Republican nominee for president.

Or, at the church where I grew up, a few months back.  These have been a series of unity meetings, not pure Gospel Meetings, but the community turnout has been very good.

So is McCain going to be okay with the Pelosi thing?

[Imabear]

A Methodist preacher at a COC gospel meeting?  Yeah, sometime after Nancy Pelosi is the Republican nominee for president.

Or, at the church where I grew up, a few months back.  These have been a series of unity meetings, not pure Gospel Meetings, but the community turnout has been very good.

I fear that whole congregation is headed for www.thegapingmaw.com or www.gapingmaws.com

[Barabbas]

As for Roman Catholics, Campbell's understanding allowed him to fellowship a Roman Catholic who had been scripturally immersed (assuing such a thing happened). Because belief and baptism were the only prerequisites for becoming a Christian and a member of the Church. Technically such a person could retain all or some of his Catholic views, so long as he held them privately and didn't use them as tests of fellowship. Campbell would then own that person as a brother or sister. In an ecumenical meeting at Lexington, Kentucky in 1841, he stated:

Whatever in faith, in piety, and morality is catholic, or universally admitted by all parties, shall be adopted as the basis of union.

He often expressed this "catholic rule for unity" in terms of the seven "facts" of Ephesians 4:4-6 (one body, one Spirit, one hope, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all). On the basis of Ephesians 4, Campbell believed that "we must fraternize with all who practically own one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one body, one Spirit, one hope, one God and Father of all" and "with all such we must maintain the unity of spirit in the bonds of peace." In his 1860 address to the American Christian Missionary Society, he refered to these as the seven hills of the "true Zion of Israel's God." They are the seven "divinely constructed and instituted pillars" which are "alone sufficient, and the all-sufficient foundation--the indestructible basis--of Christ's kingdom on this earth, and of man's spiritual and eternal salvation in the full enjoyment of himself, his Creator, his Redeemer."

Right, but Campbell was rather dogmatic in his ecumenism - was he not?    He insisted on certain behavior - that is maintaining silence when it did not fit his view of those 7 pillars.  He insisted on submission to his view of what was central in Christian beliefs.  For instance if one taught tran-substantiation - I have no doubt that he would have insisted on silence of that teaching in order to maintain some sort of fellowship, despite the insistance of other christians that this was a central pillar to them.

I'm not sure how one gets around the divisiveness.  For instance his view of one baptism (perhaps believers baptism and immersion?  or perhaps not?)  would cause many differences among believers in the years to come.  As talented and intelligent as Campbell is, there  seems to me to be a great deal of naivety in his outlook when looked at from at historical perspective.  Don't get me wrong,  I think there was much admirable about Campbell wanting to unite christians under one banner - I just think it was doomed to failure early on due to some fundamental stances that he took.

[Sherman Nobles]

Generally speaking, I believe it's a good idea for someone other than the regular minister to preach now and then.  Otherwise, the people are tempted to idolize the preacher because they can't imagine the congregation without him.

Also, most preachers don't spend their whole career.  Or if nothing else, they eventually die.  So if you have a guest preacher from time to time, it helps the people adjust in a transition.

Or how about this?  In any congregation of over 20 members, surely there must be a (lay)man who can pinch-hit in the pulpit occasionally.

It's not that I have a problem with other folks getting up there, but if you are doing something like a "gospel meeting" or a "revival" and trying to attract locals, it seems better to have the regular guy.

I suppose it depends on how evangelistic your minister is.  Not only is the pastor/teacher a gift of Christ, but so is the evangelist.  And though we're all called to share the gospel, some people are radically gifted in doing so and in training others to do so.  So having an evangelist do an outreach for your church could be a very good thing.

[Mere Nick]

Some folks get along better at a distance.       Like being on the Forum?  

Mmm hmm.

[Mere Nick]

A Methodist preacher at a COC gospel meeting?  Yeah, sometime after Nancy Pelosi is the Republican nominee for president.

Or, at the church where I grew up, a few months back.  These have been a series of unity meetings, not pure Gospel Meetings, but the community turnout has been very good.

So is McCain going to be okay with the Pelosi thing?

I just can't see this happening at our congregation anytime soon.  Nothing much was said a few years back when a Roman Catholic priest helped at a funeral service at our building, but it wasn't an official WORSHIP SERVICE.  There's probably lots of folks who wouldn't mind, but then, there are enough who probably would to where it just won't happen.  Kinda like Pelosi and an oil drilling vote.

[Mere Nick]

Generally speaking, I believe it's a good idea for someone other than the regular minister to preach now and then.  Otherwise, the people are tempted to idolize the preacher because they can't imagine the congregation without him.

Also, most preachers don't spend their whole career.  Or if nothing else, they eventually die.  So if you have a guest preacher from time to time, it helps the people adjust in a transition.

Or how about this?  In any congregation of over 20 members, surely there must be a (lay)man who can pinch-hit in the pulpit occasionally.

It's not that I have a problem with other folks getting up there, but if you are doing something like a "gospel meeting" or a "revival" and trying to attract locals, it seems better to have the regular guy.

I suppose it depends on how evangelistic your minister is.  Not only is the pastor/teacher a gift of Christ, but so is the evangelist.  And though we're all called to share the gospel, some people are radically gifted in doing so and in training others to do so.  So having an evangelist do an outreach for your church could be a very good thing.

I can see your point.  It just seems preferable to have visitors considering becoming part of the congregation listen to the one they will normally listen to if they start coming regular.  Its just a personal preference of mine, that's all it is.

[Johnb]

My personal preferance is not to have a rgular preacher or any preacher in the assembly for that matter.