56 Questions that critics are afraid to answer.

[OldDad]

Heck no, I darn well don't intend to give a gosh-durned apology for that... Jeez.

[djconklin]

I didn't expect that you would.

You are made in the image of God.  You deserve to be treated with respect and dignity.  Satan, on the other hand, hates God and will use every dirty, low-down trick in the book to pry you away from Him. I will not be one of his instruments.

[OldDad]

3rd post that says the same thing (previous two are #3 and #8)!*  "Wow!" is an understatement.

 

Ellen G. White did NOT plagiarize--get the point, yet?!?

* I wonder how many sock puppets there will be.  What does this tell you about the critics of Ellen White and the SDA church?

Let's ignore the fact that you obviously don't know the meaning of "sock puppet"...

As early as the 1880's The Standard Dictionary gave the following definition of plagiarism: "The act of plagiarizing or appropriating the ideas, writings or inventions or another without due acknowledgment; especially, the stealing of passages, either word for word or in substance, from the writings of another, and publishing them as one's own; literary or artistic theft."

Clearly, that is precisely what EGW did - in fact, she withdrew from publication her 1883 book, "Sketches from the Life of Paul" when she was threatened with legal action by the publisher of an 1855 book, "Life and Epistles of the Apostle Paul" by Conybeare and Howson, two English authors.

[djconklin]

Let's ignore the fact that you obviously don't know the meaning of "sock puppet"...

"A sockpuppet is an online identity used for purposes of deception within an online community. In its earliest usage, a sockpuppet was a false identity through which a member of an Internet community speaks with or about himself or herself, pretending to be a different person,[1] like a ventriloquist manipulating a hand puppet.

In current usage, the perception of the term has been extended beyond second identities of people who already post in a forum to include other uses of misleading online identities. For example, a NY Times article claims that "sock-puppeting" is defined as "the act of creating a fake online identity to praise, defend or create the illusion of support for one’s self, allies or company."[2]" from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sockpuppet_(Internet)  

in fact, she withdrew from publication her 1883 book

Actually, the print run was allowed to sell out as EGW was writing a new book which became The Acts of the Apostles.

when she was threatened with legal action by the publisher of an 1855 book, "Life and Epistles of the Apostle Paul" by Conybeare and Howson, two English authors.

Never happened.  Produce the letter that made the threat--ask the website you got this from why they don't post the letter.  When the publisher was asked about it, sometime later, they said that had no knowledge of such a thing (and we have that letter--http://www.whiteestate.org/books/egwhc/EGWHCc29.html#sth20, page 456).

[djconklin]

Robinson, B. A. "Seventh-day Adventist Church Its origin, beliefs, practices, etc.," Retrieved Feb. 22, 2008, from http://www.religioustolerance.org/sda.htm.

He concluded (without seeing the type of study recommended by Dr. Veltman) that Conklin had already "demonstrate[d] that there is no proof of Ellen White's plagiarism."

[OldDad]

Let's ignore the fact that you obviously don't know the meaning of "sock puppet"...

"A sockpuppet is an online identity used for purposes of deception within an online community. In its earliest usage, a sockpuppet was a false identity through which a member of an Internet community speaks with or about himself or herself, pretending to be a different person,[1] like a ventriloquist manipulating a hand puppet.

In current usage, the perception of the term has been extended beyond second identities of people who already post in a forum to include other uses of misleading online identities. For example, a NY Times article claims that "sock-puppeting" is defined as "the act of creating a fake online identity to praise, defend or create the illusion of support for one’s self, allies or company."[2]" from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sockpuppet_(Internet) 

Do you mean to say that I also posted in this thread under the user names "zoonance" and "Wycliffe"?  It's a simple yes or no question, BTW.

[OldDad]

when she was threatened with legal action by the publisher of an 1855 book, "Life and Epistles of the Apostle Paul" by Conybeare and Howson, two English authors.

Never happened.  Produce the letter that made the threat--ask the website you got this from why they don't post the letter.  When the publisher was asked about it, sometime later, they said that had no knowledge of such a thing (and we have that letter--http://www.whiteestate.org/books/egwhc/EGWHCc29.html#sth20, page 456).

How shocking that a book published in 1855 no longer had copyright protection in 1924!!  And how shocking that since there was no copyright protection, the publisher could not pursue legal action!!!

Doesn't change the fact the EGW stole large portions of Conybeare and Howson's work.

[Bocephus]

"The colored people should not urge that they be placed on an equality with white people." - Ellen White, Testimonies, vol 9. P. 214

"Every species of animal which God had created were preserved in the ark. The confused species which God did not create, which were the result of amalgamation, were destroyed by the flood. Since the flood there has been amalgamation of man and beast, as may be seen in the almost endless varieties of species of animals, and in certain races of men."
Ellen White - Spiritual Gifts

[djconklin]

How shocking that a book published in 1855 no longer had copyright protection in 1924!!  And how shocking that since there was no copyright protection, the publisher could not pursue legal action!!!

Silly, the letter was written in 1924--as I noted "sometime latter."

Doesn't change the fact the EGW stole large portions of Conybeare and Howson's work.

1   125   3283   3.8075
2   42   3210   1.3084
3   115   2060   5.5825
4   13   3492   0.3723
5   74   2778   2.6638
6   28   2756   1.0160
7   33   2594   1.2722
8   45   1436   3.1337
9   118   3084   3.8262
10   101   3375   2.9926
11   63   2575   2.4466
12   18   2822   0.6378
13   191   3302   5.7844
14   99   2461   4.0228
15   12   6540   0.1835
16   84   3176   2.6448
17   176   3058   5.7554
18   81   3718   2.1786
19   159   1973   8.0588
20   606   5569   10.8817
21   222   3492   6.3574
22   43   1703   2.5250
23   37   2433   1.5208
24   60   3025   1.9835
25   31   2277   1.3614
26   129   2752   4.6875
27   0   3203   0.0000
28   76   999   7.6076
29   0   1515   0.0000
30   9   2438   0.3692
31   0   2664   0.0000
32   0   1838   0.0000

Average =   2790   91601   3.0458% -- so, this is a large number to you?  "Fair use" is 10%.

[djconklin]

"The colored people should not urge that they be placed on an equality with white people." - Ellen White, Testimonies, vol 9. P. 214

And when the Civil Rights movement took place 100 years later notice how easily it took place.

"Every species of animal which God had created were preserved in the ark. The confused species which God did not create, which were the result of amalgamation, were destroyed by the flood. Since the flood there has been amalgamation of man and beast, as may be seen in the almost endless varieties of species of animals, and in certain races of men."
Ellen White - Spiritual Gifts

1) Note that your source didn't tell you what page the quote is on.  Why didn't you ask "Why?"  Typically, but not always, when the critics don't tell you the page it is because the quote doesn't exist.

2) This is an old charge (chiefly based on how poorly people can read English) and has already been answered: http://www.whiteestate.org/books/egwhc/EGWHCc20.html; "We believe that the meaning of the key phrase in question is found by understanding it to read: “amalgamation of man and [of] beast.” Thus the passage would be speaking of the amalgamation of different races of mankind and the amalgamation of different races of animals. The grammatical construction and common usage permit us to understand “of” as being implied."

[OldDad]

1   125   3283   3.8075
2   42   3210   1.3084
3   115   2060   5.5825
4   13   3492   0.3723
5   74   2778   2.6638
6   28   2756   1.0160
7   33   2594   1.2722
8   45   1436   3.1337
9   118   3084   3.8262
10   101   3375   2.9926
11   63   2575   2.4466
12   18   2822   0.6378
13   191   3302   5.7844
14   99   2461   4.0228
15   12   6540   0.1835
16   84   3176   2.6448
17   176   3058   5.7554
18   81   3718   2.1786
19   159   1973   8.0588
20   606   5569   10.8817
21   222   3492   6.3574
22   43   1703   2.5250
23   37   2433   1.5208
24   60   3025   1.9835
25   31   2277   1.3614
26   129   2752   4.6875
27   0   3203   0.0000
28   76   999   7.6076
29   0   1515   0.0000
30   9   2438   0.3692
31   0   2664   0.0000
32   0   1838   0.0000

Average =   2790   91601   3.0458% -- so, this is a large number to you?  "Fair use" is 10%.

What are those, your Keeno numbers?

Fair use in a recent idea - I thought we had to play by the rules in the wide open 1880's when every author stole from other authors and it was "o.k."

I'd love to see your page by page analysis of both books.

[Bocephus]

"The colored people should not urge that they be placed on an equality with white people." - Ellen White, Testimonies, vol 9. P. 214

And when the Civil Rights movement took place 100 years later notice how easily it took place.

"Every species of animal which God had created were preserved in the ark. The confused species which God did not create, which were the result of amalgamation, were destroyed by the flood. Since the flood there has been amalgamation of man and beast, as may be seen in the almost endless varieties of species of animals, and in certain races of men."
Ellen White - Spiritual Gifts

1) Note that your source didn't tell you what page the quote is on.  Why didn't you ask "Why?"  Typically, but not always, when the critics don'ttell you the page it is because the quote doesn't exist.

2) This is an old charge (chiefly based on how poorly people can read English) and has already been answered: http://www.whiteestate.org/books/egwhc/EGWHCc20.html; "We believe that the meaning of the key phrase in question is found by understanding it to read: “amalgamation of man and [of] beast.” Thus the passage would be speaking of the amalgamation of different races of mankind and the amalgamation of different races of animals. The grammatical construction and common usage permit us to understand “of” as being implied."

She was a racist.  And her "visions" were caused by a head injury.  Next point:  If you didn't "revere" her so much, you wouldn't spend so much time being an Ellen White "apologist."

[djconklin]

What are those, your Keeno numbers?

I had to read that three times to realize that you were talking about gambling!  Which I don't do.  My apologies for assuming that you were intimately familar with the subject at hand.

The first column is the chapter number, the second is the number of similiar words between EGW's Sketches and Conybeare and Howson's work.  The third column is the number of words in the respective chapter in Sketches.  The fourth then is the percentage of the chapter that has similiar (but not necessarily borrowed) words.  So, the overall average is 3.046%.

Fair use in a recent idea

And your source for this claim is?

SIMMS v. STANTON et al. (two cases), Circuit Court, N.D. California, 75 F. 6; 1896 U.S. App. LEXIS 2752 (June 25, 1896).

Drone gives the following statement of what constitutes a "fair use." He says (page 394):

"The fair uses, other than those of legitimate quotation, which an author is privileged to make of a copyrighted work in the preparation of a rival or other publication, are restricted by recent English decisions to very narrow limits.... his composition must be the product of his own labor. If, to a material extent, he copies from the protected work, or appropriates the results there found, it is piracy."
   
And on page 427 he [Drone] says further:
   
"But there is nothing in the law of copyright to prevent any person who has obtained common materials from the original sources from using them in substantially the same manner, and for the same purpose, as they have been previously used, provided the arrangement is his own, and is not servilely copied from the work of another. Two authors, writing on the same subject, citing the same authorities, and taking the same illustrations and quotations from common sources, will naturally use such common materials for like purposes and in a similar manner. As far as citations of authorities, quotations, etc., are concerned, there may be a striking resemblance, amounting in some instances to substantial identity. This, however, does not amount to piracy, unless it appears that there has been servile copying from the preceding work."

I thought we had to play by the rules in the wide open 1880's

That would be best.

when every author stole from other authors

They didn't.

and it was "o.k."

It wasn't.

[djconklin]

I'd love to see your page by page analysis of both books.

The pdf file is 856 pages long; it will cost you $30.   Email me and I'll tell you how to get it.

[djconklin]

Do you mean to say that I also posted in this thread under the user names "zoonance" and "Wycliffe"?  It's a simple yes or no question, BTW.

I didn't look to see who wrote the posts other than to note the post numbers.