56 Questions that critics are afraid to answer.

[djconklin]

New whopper:

Mrs. White also says of pork that it is nourishing and strengthening food:Testimonies, Volume 1, p.206

[djconklin]

Today's whopper:

"What prophetess would say that God made a mistake, just to cover her own errors and failed prophecies?"

[current occupant]

So - "plagiarism was rampant at the time" is supposed to be a defense?

Plagiarism back then was taking the whole.  If you borrowed bits and pieces, polished them and put them in new settings then it wasn't considered plagiarism.  See Macfarlane's book for more detail.

I thought all her stuff came to her in visions.

That shows a "verbal inspiration" assumption.  She never taught that and her assistants certainly never practiced it--if they had they wouldn't have edited her writings and would have saved her original manuscripts.

So the admission is, yes she did plagiarize,

No, she did NOT plagiarize; the claimants are lying through their teeth and are selling you a pig in a poke.

but so did everybody else back then?

It was not a common practice.  There were cases of actual plagiarism.  The plagiarists were sued and lost in court (Dana is one example that I recall; one Thomas D. Shuplee was accused by another author and her publisher.  In that case, the Presbyterian Board of Directors took the unsold copies and pulped them and destroyed the plates.)  Note that Ellen G. White was never threatened with a lawsuit over her alleged plagiarisms--why not?

Note also that while the New York Times ran over 1,000 articles on plagiarism during her lifetime, none of the artciles refer to Ellen G. White.  The best the critics can do is to point to a newspaper with a circulation of about 200 at best.

Seems to me that a newspaper would know a real instance of plagiarism.  They published the article without qualification.  It is all the more convincing as any evidence I've seen presented anywhere else.

[current occupant]

1. Did Ellen G. White plagiarise?
2. Did Ellen G. White plagiarize by paraphrasing?
3. Was she was a millionaire?
4. Did she accumulate property while telling everyone else not to?
5. Did Fannie Bolton write Steps to Christ?
6. Did she engage in "wholesale plagiarism" of Conybeare and Howson?
7. Was she threatened with a lawsuit over her alleged plagiarism?
8. Did she take a dozen servants with her to Australia?
9. Did she plagiarize 80-90%("and possibly more" according to some web sites)?
10. Did she predict the San Francisco earthquake after it happened?
11. Did she say that only vegetarians will be saved?
12. Did she say that only sabbatarians will be saved?
13. Did the Library of Congress not allow her book The Great Controversy into the library because of the plagiarisms involved?
14. Was an entire chapter of Sketches from the Life of Paul was “taken entirely” from a sermon by Melvill?$5 will get you a ebook that answers the question for you.
15. Is it true that “there is no point in the entire chapter that had not already come to Mevill before her”?
16. Did she say that she saw people on Jupiter?
17. Did she made repeated claims that Jesus was coming in specific years?
18. Did she asked Washburn and Crisler to undertake a research of the Life of Christ and then appropriated it and published it as Desire of Ages?
19. Did she contradict Scripture (53, or 75, or "much more than 75") times?
20. Did she contradict herself?
21. Did she predict that England would enter into the American Civil War?
22. Did she copy her first vision from Foy?
23. Did she predicted that someone would be healed (and yet he died)?
24. Do SDA’s “worship” Ellen G. White?
25. Did Dr. Veltman prove that Ellen G. White plagiarized?
26. Were Ellen G. White’s visions were the result of a head injury during childhood?

Some can be answered in as little as 5 minutes. I have yet to meet one critic who spends that much time finding the truth on anything and never on the above.

When they err on such simple things as these, why should you believe anything they have to say about more complex questions, like what the Bible says or means?

Hi David.

Because you post these excerpts from critics as questions that are devoid of any original contextual statements and without any corroborating links, it would seem that the intent is to provide a smokescreen of hyperbole phrased in such a way as to make the group of those you see as critics of Adventism appear as foolish as possible.

No doubt, the phrasing of some of these questions does make the individual who, perhaps, made them appear uninformed while others have been crafted in such a way as to deflect the unflattering to Adventism truth of the situation.
 
This list and the additions to it are as uninformed on your part as the general SDA assertion recognized by most current members that people who leave the SDA church do so because they have been hurt.  There is a consistent denial that anyone can study their way out of the SDA church and still remain a Christian.

In the organizational system of the SDA church, there are only two ways that someone who becomes a member can have their names remove from the record of church membership

1.   death
2.   apostasy

There is no provision for transfer of a believer's membership outside of the SDA system.

Even someone who has been hurt by the doctrines of the SDA church and doesn’t realize the doctrinal source has to admit apostasy in order to fully divorce themselves from the emotional and spiritual abuse the belief system of the denomination engenders.

[djconklin]

Seems to me that a newspaper would know a real instance of plagiarism.  They published the article without qualification.  It is all the more convincing as any evidence I've seen presented anywhere else.

Which newspaper and which article are you referring to?  I referred to the NYT which ran over 1000 articles on plagiarism and not a single one is on Ellen G. White.

[current occupant]

Seems to me that a newspaper would know a real instance of plagiarism.  They published the article without qualification.  It is all the more convincing as any evidence I've seen presented anywhere else.

Which newspaper and which article are you referring to?  I referred to the NYT which ran over 1000 articles on plagiarism and not a single one is on Ellen G. White.

just follow the link!!

The same link was provided in the second post in this thread as well.

Seems that there is a lack of serious consideration for the replies to your posts when you don't read them or the links provided.

[djconklin]

Because you post these excerpts from critics as questions that are devoid of any original contextual statements and without any corroborating links, it would seem that the intent is to provide a smokescreen of hyperbole phrased in such a way as to make the group of those you see as critics of Adventism appear as foolish as possible.

I have assumed in presenting the list that anyone who is at least vaguely familiar with the SDA church would have run across these claims at least once before.  Secondly, I assumed that it wouldn't be too hard for anyone on the Internet to know how to search the web on these topics.  For instance, I just did a search on Yahoo for "Ellen G. White" plagiarism and got 9,500 hits.  Thirdly, if one actually read the list and hit item #2 one could recall one grade school education in which one learned to paraphrase and so one would know automaticaly that that one was false--what did that take?  One to two minutes?  On the 3rd item a search for "Ellen G. White" millionaire yields 834 hits.

No doubt, the phrasing of some of these questions does make the individual who, perhaps, made them appear uninformed while others have been crafted in such a way as to deflect the unflattering to Adventism truth of the situation.

An example or two would have been nice support for this claim.
 

This list and the additions to it are as uninformed on your part ...

My study on the plagiarism question has been going on now for seven years, the bibliography is 635 items long and I havbe been published on the subject in a scholarly, refereed journal on the subject.  So, I think I can say that I am quite well-informed--you have slandered me without knowing me--thus, it is you who is uninformed.

In the organizational system of the SDA church, there are only two ways that someone who becomes a member can have their names remove from the record of church membership

1.   death
2.   apostasy

There is no provision for transfer of a believer's membership outside of the SDA system.

Actually there are three more methods:

3) one can be disfellowshipped for persisting in known sin--we did it once in my local church.
4) you can request that your name be removed.
5) if you fail to come to church for a number of years the church may send a letter asking if you intend to reurn.  If not, they will remove your name from the books.

May I ask what was your source ofthis misinformation?

Even someone who has been hurt by the doctrines of the SDA church and doesn’t realize the doctrinal source has to admit apostasy in order to fully divorce themselves from the emotional and spiritual abuse the belief system of the denomination engenders.

Again, this is compeletly false and basic Christian doctrines have never hurt anyone.

[djconklin]

just follow the link!!

I did that; I didn't see an article--it took me to a web page.  That's why I asked a simple question.  Which newspaper and which article?

[current occupant]

just follow the link!!

I did that; I didn't see an article--it took me to a web page.  That's why I asked a simple question.  Which newspaper and which article?

There is a link to a copy of the newspaper in question on that web page.

[djconklin]

From the 2nd post:

#1 and #2 are pretty much slam dunks - and since they are true, the other questions don't really matter.

Actually, my article shows that Ellen White was not a plagiarist.  Secondly, the data that I had already posted on the web (http://dedication.www3.50megs.com/David/index.html) convinced one outsider that she was not a plagiarist:

Robinson, B. A. "Seventh-day Adventist Church Its origin, beliefs, practices, etc.," Retrieved Feb. 22, 2008, from http://www.religioustolerance.org/sda.htm.

He concluded (without seeing the type of study recommended by Dr. Veltman) that Conklin had already "demonstrate[d] that there is no proof of Ellen White's plagiarism."

Third, we should note that you were taught back in grade school to paraphrase because it is a legitimate literary activity.

So the question becomes: if they were willing to lie to you about such simple things, how can you trust their judgment on anything more complex?  Now, it may be that they didn't know that they were lying.  But, to date, I haven't seen a single critic admit that they were wrong on anything on the list.  Nor, have I seen any of them disown the more outrageous claims--this should be the easiest step of all.  Finally, we should note that some of these claims can be disposed of in 5 minutes or less and yet none of the critics have spent that 5 minutes or less to deal with even one of the claims.  Why is that?  Are they too busy to study, but not busy enough to tell more lies about Ellen G. White or me?

[djconklin]

just follow the link!!

I did that; I didn't see an article--it took me to a web page.  That's why I asked a simple question.  Which newspaper and which article?

There is a link to a copy of the newspaper in question on that web page.

If it is the newspaper I think you are talking about I didn't see it.  Could you please go to the web page, click on the article and then cut-and-paste that link?

[current occupant]

Because you post these excerpts from critics as questions that are devoid of any original contextual statements and without any corroborating links, it would seem that the intent is to provide a smokescreen of hyperbole phrased in such a way as to make the group of those you see as critics of Adventism appear as foolish as possible.

I have assumed in presenting the list that anyone who is at least vaguely familiar with the SDA church would have run across these claims at least once before.  Secondly, I assumed that it wouldn't be too hard for anyone on the Internet to know how to search the web on these topics.  For instance, I just did a search on Yahoo for "Ellen G. White" plagiarism and got 9,500 hits.  Thirdly, if one actually read the list and hit item #2 one could recall one grade school education in which one learned to paraphrase and so one would know automaticaly that that one was false--what did that take?  One to two minutes?  On the 3rd item a search for "Ellen G. White" millionaire yields 834 hits.

no doubt you, as an unapologetic SDA apologist, will have a blanket dismissal for any and all criticisms of your church.  Your presentation of this list then assumes that all who might read it will be familiar with SDAism and it's foibles.  It ignores those, who in innocence of previous exposure to the unusual teachings of SDAism,  come upon your rancorous claims of foolish assertions and have nothing for reference.  I'm thinking there will be references supplied in the future.

[current occupant]

just follow the link!!

I did that; I didn't see an article--it took me to a web page.  That's why I asked a simple question.  Which newspaper and which article?

There is a link to a copy of the newspaper in question on that web page.

If it is the newspaper I think you are talking about I didn't see it.  Could you please go to the web page, click on the article and then cut-and-paste that link?

I guess I should be glad to oblige.  The more exposure this gets - the better it is.

http://www.nonsda.org/egw/egw77.shtml

http://www.nonsda.org/egw/images/healdsburg.gif

I

[current occupant]

No doubt, the phrasing of some of these questions does make the individual who, perhaps, made them appear uninformed while others have been crafted in such a way as to deflect the unflattering to Adventism truth of the situation.

An example or two would have been nice support for this claim.
 

coming in the future - please stand by!!

[djconklin]

no doubt you, as an unapologetic SDA apologist,

Never heard of such an animal.  But, in any case, I have never been an apologist for anything.  What I do is analyze arguments.

For example, Bible critics claim that the Bible is filled with errors and contradictions.  And they present long lists that seem to confirm their claim.  So, what I did was to look at some simple cliams to see if they were logical, factual, etc..  I found that these were created because the critics were reading the texts woodenly, simplistically and literalistically.  Now, was I an apologist?  No, I simple analyzed their claims.

will have a blanket dismissal for any and all criticisms of your church.

Hardly.  I haven't looked at all the claims that have been made.

Your presentation of this list then assumes that all who might read it will be familiar with SDAism and it's foibles.

Would they be on this forum and this particular thread if they didn't at least have vague familairity?  Did you read my previous post where you made this claim?

 It ignores those, who in innocence of previous exposure to the unusual teachings of SDAism,  come upon your rancorous claims of foolish assertions and have nothing for reference.  I'm thinking there will be references supplied in the future.

So far, I haven't made any rancorous statements.  That's the second time you have lied about me--why?  References for what?  I already told you about that in the previous post--didn't you read it?