Author Topic: Annihilationism, do the Wicked Perish  (Read 949 times)

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Offline Hobie

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Annihilationism, do the Wicked Perish
« on: Fri Apr 29, 2016 - 05:32:24 »
First I have to wait for the powers that be to give guidance/rule on whether this can be discussed in the SDA forum, from my recollection it was allowed. But we shall see.

Offline Hobie

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Re: Annihilationism, do the Wicked Perish
« Reply #1 on: Sat May 28, 2016 - 02:20:03 »
Well lets take a look at what the Bible says will happen to the Wicked...

Job 21:30 King James Version (KJV)

"30 That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath."

Psalm 37:10 King James Version (KJV)

"10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be."

Psalm 37:20 King James Version (KJV)

"20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away."

Psalm 37:28 King James Version (KJV)

"28 For the Lord loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off."

Psalm 37:38 King James Version (KJV)

"38 But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off."

Psalm 73:17-18 King James Version (KJV)

"17 Until I went into the sanctuary of God; then understood I their end.18 Surely thou didst set them in slippery places: thou castedst them down into destruction."

Psalm 92:7 King James Version (KJV)

"7 When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:"

Psalm 104:35 King James Version (KJV)

"35 Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the Lord, O my soul. Praise ye the Lord."

Psalm 145:20 King James Version (KJV)

"20 The Lord preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy."

Proverbs 2:22 King James Version (KJV)

"22 But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it."

Nahum 1:9-10 King James Version (KJV)

"9 What do ye imagine against the Lord? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.10 For while they be folden together as thorns, and while they are drunken as drunkards, they shall be devoured as stubble fully dry."

Malachi 4:1King James Version (KJV)

"4 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch."

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 King James Version (KJV)

"8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;"

2 Peter 2:6 King James Version (KJV)

"6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;"

2 Peter 2:9-12  King James Version (KJV)
9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

2 Peter 3:7 King James Version (KJV)

"7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

2 Peter 3:9-10 King James Version (KJV)

"9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. "

Revelation 20:9 King James Version (KJV)

"9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."

Revelation 21:8 King James Version (KJV)

"8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."





And the words of Christ...

Matthew 7:13 King James Version (KJV)

"13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:"

Matthew 10:28 King James Version (KJV)

"28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

Matthew 13:40-42 King James Version (KJV)

"40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

Matthew 25:41 King James Version (KJV)

"41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:"

Luke 13:3 King James Version (KJV)

"3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish."

John 3:14-16 King James Version (KJV)

"14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.



Offline Hobie

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Re: Annihilationism, do the Wicked Perish
« Reply #2 on: Sat Jul 23, 2016 - 18:00:11 »
Now here is a good overview by my fathers old classmate, Samuele Bacchiocchi:

"The Greek philosopher Socrates (470-399 B. C.) traveled to Egypt to consult the Egyptians on their teachings on the immortality of the soul. Upon his return to Greece, he imparted this teaching to his most famous pupil, Plato (428-348 B. C.).
            In his book, The Phaedo, Plato recounts Socrates' final conversation with his friends on the last day of his life. He was condemned to die by drinking hemlock for corrupting the youths of Athens by teaching them "atheism," that is, the rejection of the gods. The setting was an Athenian prison and the time the summer of 399 B. C. Socrates spent his last day discussing the origin, nature, and destiny of the human soul with his closest friends.
            In the dialogue Socrates repeatedly declares death to be "the separation of the soul from the body" in which it is encased. His language is strikingly similar to that of many Christian churches today....

In Phaedo, Plato explains that there is a judgement after death for all souls, according to the deeds done in the body. The righteous souls go to heaven and the wicked to hell.5 

This teaching found its way first into Hellenistic Judaism especially through the influence of  Philo Judaeus (ca. 20 B.C. A. D. 47) and later into Christianity especially through the influence of Tertullian (ca. 155-230), Origen (ca. 185-254), Augustine (354-430), and Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274). These writers attempted to blend the Platonic view of the immortality of the soul with the biblical teachings on the resurrection of the body....

The Greek philosophers Socrates and Philo adopted the Egyptian belief in life after death, but redefined it in terms of an immaterial, immortal soul that leaves the prison house of the mortal body at death. They viewed death as the separation of the soul from the body.

This dualistic teaching found its way into the Christian church toward the end of the second century. It was promoted first by Tertullian, and later on by Origen, Augustine, and Thomas Aquinas. For them death meant the destruction of the body, which enables the immortal soul to continue to live in either the beatitude of Paradise or in the eternal torment of Hell.

The belief in the survival of the soul contributed to the development of the doctrine of Purgatory, a place where the souls of the dead are purified by suffering the temporal punishment of their sins before ascending to Paradise.

The Reformers rejected as unbiblical and unreasonable the practice of buying and selling indulgences to reduce the stay of the souls of departed relatives in Purgatory. However, they continued to believe in the conscious existence of souls either in Paradise or Hell..." THE IMMORTALITY OF THE SOUL, POPULAR BELIEFS: ARE THEY BIBLICAL?  by Samuele Bacchiocchi excerpts from part I and IV.

The Bible warns us of those who try to change the true word of scripture or bring in false doctrines to deceive...

2 Timothy 4:3-5 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. 5 But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

The Wicked will not receive the truth and will perish...

2 Thessalonians 2:8-12 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

The Wicked will destroyed in the end like tares burned in the fire...

Matthew 13:39-40
"39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world."

The Wicked will receive the reword for their works at the end, they are not in hell with some pitchfork wielding devil....
Revelation 22:12
"12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be."

The Wicked will be burned up and nothing will remain, just ashes.

Malachi 4:1-3
"1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts."

The wicked do not burn forever, they will be consumed by the fire at the end and vanish like smoke....

Psalm 21:9
"9 Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine anger: the Lord shall swallow them up in his wrath, and the fire shall devour them."

Psalm 37:10
"10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be."

Psalm 37:20
"20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.."

Isaiah 1:28
 “And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed”

The Wicked will receive the opposite of everlasting life and perish, or ceasing to exist....

John 3:16
"16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

« Last Edit: Sat Jul 23, 2016 - 18:02:39 by Hobie »

Offline Hobie

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Re: Annihilationism, do the Wicked Perish
« Reply #3 on: Tue Jun 18, 2019 - 06:51:50 »
Here is even more text that show what happens to the wicked..


Psalm 1:4   
The wicked are not so, But they are like chaff which the wind drives away.
 
Psalm 1:6   
For the LORD knows the way of the righteous, But the way of the wicked will perish.
 
Job 38:13   
That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, And the wicked be shaken out of it?
 
Ezekiel 33:8   
"When I say to the wicked, 'O wicked man, you will surely die,' and you do not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but his blood I will require from your hand.
 
Job 13:16   
"This also will be my salvation, For a godless man may not come before His presence.

John 9:31   
"We know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is God-fearing and does His will, He hears him.
 
1 Corinthians 6:9   
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
 
Isaiah 48:22   
"There is no peace for the wicked," says the LORD.
 
Isaiah 57:21   
"There is no peace," says my God, "for the wicked."
 
Isaiah 3:11   
Woe to the wicked! It will go badly with him, For what he deserves will be done to him.

Psalm 37:9-10   
For evildoers will be cut off, But those who wait for the LORD, they will inherit the land. Yet a little while and the wicked man will be no more; And you will look carefully for his place and he will not be there.
 
Psalm 37:20   
But the wicked will perish; And the enemies of the LORD will be like the glory of the pastures, They vanish--like smoke they vanish away.

Psalm 37:34   
Wait for the LORD and keep His way, And He will exalt you to inherit the land; When the wicked are cut off, you will see it.
 
2 Samuel 23:6   
"But the worthless, every one of them will be thrust away like thorns, Because they cannot be taken in hand;

Job 18:5   
"Indeed, the light of the wicked goes out, And the flame of his fire gives no light.
 
Job 11:20   
"But the eyes of the wicked will fail, And there will be no escape for them; And their hope is to breathe their last."
 
Job 21:28   
"For you say, 'Where is the house of the nobleman, And where is the tent, the dwelling places of the wicked?'

Offline Hobie

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Re: Annihilationism, do the Wicked Perish
« Reply #4 on: Fri Nov 22, 2019 - 07:28:33 »
Here is a good presentation on the issue...
"It is commonly believed that at death the righteous go immediately to heaven, and the wicked forthwith to hell, where they are punished. There are persons, how ever, who believe that the wicked are punished in this life for their sins. They argue that when a man is cast into prison, or perhaps is executed on the gallows, he is then suffering punishment for his iniquities. In a way this is true, but not strictly so. That he thus suffers, there can be no doubt, but such suffering is not primarily the penalty for his sins. He suffers in this life the penalty for his crimes. The state punishes for infraction of human laws, but its punishments are meted out for crimes, not sins. Sin is infringement of the divine law, the Decalogue, the commandments of God. And God will be the judge, and will mete out punishment according to His justice.

 It is, of course, true that in this life men may lose their health because of wrong habits of living. Men may drink to excess and not only suffer all kinds of sickness but also incur premature death. But these consequences do not constitute actual punishment for sin. They are the physical results of wrongdoing. Punishment for sin, as such, will finally be meted out when the wicked stand before the bar of God and receive the just rewards of their deeds....

Neither evil angels nor wicked men are  now  receiving final punishment for their transgressions. Such punishments are still future. In the days when Jesus was on earth, the devils asked Him, "Art thou come hither to torment us  before the time?" (Matt. 8:29). Evil angels are "reserved unto judgment" (2 Peter 2:4), or "unto the judgment of the great day" (Jude 6). Concerning the wicked we read that God reserves "the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished" (2 Peter 2:9)......
 
Reasons for Rejecting Eternal Torment

We reject the doctrine of eternal torment for the following major reasons:

 1. Because everlasting life is a gift of God (Rom. 6:23). The wicked do not possess this—they "shall not see life" (John 3:36); "no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him" (1 John 3:15).

 2. Because eternal torment would perpetuate and immortalize sin, suffering, and woe, and contradict, we believe, divine revelation, which envisions the time when these things shall be no more (Rev. 21:4).

 3. Because it seems to us to provide a plague spot in the universe of God throughout eternity, and would seem to indicate that it is impossible for God Himself ever to abolish it.

 4. Because in our thinking, it would detract from the attribute of love as seen in the character of God, and postulates the concept of a wrath which is never appeased.

 5. Because the Scriptures teach that the atoning work of Christ is to "put away sin" (Heb. 9:26)—first from the individual, and ultimately from the universe. The full fruition of Christ's sacrificial, atoning work will be seen not only in a redeemed people but in a restored heaven and earth (Eph. 1:14)." http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/books/qod/q42.htm

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Re: Annihilationism, do the Wicked Perish
« Reply #4 on: Fri Nov 22, 2019 - 07:28:33 »



Offline beam

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Re: Annihilationism, do the Wicked Perish
« Reply #5 on: Sun Nov 24, 2019 - 07:49:05 »

We reject the doctrine of eternal torment for the following major reasons:

 1. Because everlasting life is a gift of God (Rom. 6:23). The wicked do not possess this—they "shall not see life" (John 3:36); "no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him" (1 John 3:15).

 2. Because eternal torment would perpetuate and immortalize sin, suffering, and woe, and contradict, we believe, divine revelation, which envisions the time when these things shall be no more (Rev. 21:4).

 3. Because it seems to us to provide a plague spot in the universe of God throughout eternity, and would seem to indicate that it is impossible for God Himself ever to abolish it.

 4. Because in our thinking, it would detract from the attribute of love as seen in the character of God, and postulates the concept of a wrath which is never appeased.

 5. Because the Scriptures teach that the atoning work of Christ is to "put away sin" (Heb. 9:26)—first from the individual, and ultimately from the universe. The full fruition of Christ's sacrificial, atoning work will be seen not only in a redeemed people but in a restored heaven and earth (Eph. 1:14)."

You certainly did a through study of life after death of those who do not believe in Jesus Christ as Savior and love others as He loves us.  One thing we have in common, the wicked will perish.  Just using a bit of common sense tells us that only the righteous have eternal life, so it should be clear that the unrighteous do not and will die.  When scripture is presented properly like you presented it the case should be closed on what happens to the wicked. 

Are you aware as to what happens to the righteous according to Isaiah 65?   According to him man will live to be over 100 years old.  Here lets read what He is telling us.

New Heavens and a New Earth
17 “See, I will create
    new heavens and a new earth.
The former things will not be remembered,
    nor will they come to mind.
18 But be glad and rejoice forever
    in what I will create,
for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight
    and its people a joy.
19 I will rejoice over Jerusalem
    and take delight in my people;
the sound of weeping and of crying
    will be heard in it no more.

20“Never again will there be in it
    an infant who lives but a few days,
    or an old man who does not live out his years;
the one who dies at a hundred
    will be thought a mere child;
the one who fails to reach a hundred
    will be considered accursed.

21 They will build houses and dwell in them;
    they will plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22 No longer will they build houses and others live in them,
    or plant and others eat.
For as the days of a tree,
    so will be the days of my people;

my chosen ones will long enjoy
    the work of their hands.
23 They will not labor in vain,
    nor will they bear children doomed to misfortune;
for they will be a people blessed by the Lord,
    they and their descendants with them.
24 Before they call I will answer;
    while they are still speaking I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb will feed together,
    and the lion will eat straw like the ox,
    and dust will be the serpent’s food.
They will neither harm nor destroy
    on all my holy mountain,”
says the Lord.


So, if we behave in Heaven, according to Isaiah we are guaranteed at least 100 years and maybe like the redwoods several hundred years.   After that we die and what happens then?

Offline 4WD

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Re: Annihilationism, do the Wicked Perish
« Reply #6 on: Sun Nov 24, 2019 - 07:55:03 »
Jesus said,  "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell" (Mat 10:28). What do you think He meant by "destroy both soul and body in hell"?
 

Offline Hobie

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Re: Annihilationism, do the Wicked Perish
« Reply #7 on: Fri Dec 06, 2019 - 17:58:22 »
Jesus said,  "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell" (Mat 10:28). What do you think He meant by "destroy both soul and body in hell"?
The soul was used to designate the whole of man as you could be killed in the first death but yet God can resurrect you. But those He destroys in the Lake of Fire in the second death will be separated completely.