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Offline current occupant2

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Re: Christ's commandments
« Reply #210 on: Wed Jun 12, 2019 - 15:29:50 »
These Word's were a covenant, they just aren't the covenant the Christ promised to change.

And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the Lord hath made with you concerning all these words.

Are we still "enjoined" to this testament by the Blood of goats and calves? No, as the Christ promised in Jer. 31, no more animal blood for atonement. He will atone for our sin's Himself.

Jer. 31: 31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

"blood of the Testament" which God hath enjoined unto you"

This is the Covenant that became old and obsolete. Just like the Christ said when He promised the New Covenant.

Now it is the Blood of the Christ that God hath enjoined to His People. A new Testament built on better promises.

"I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people."

"for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

Better promises.

Your unbelief in these Scriptures do not make them void.

How did you manage to miss the words of Exodus 34:28 in my post. 

Can’t you even read the words in my post?  Why do you go off on tangents to what was posted?

You must have missed the question in my post...  here it is again....

PLEASE TELL US WHAT THE WORDS OF THE OLD COVENANT WERE...  ACCORDING TO THESE VERSES. 

And the Lord said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel. And he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water.

And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.
Exodus 34:27-28

Now tell us - what are the words of the Covenant? 

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Re: Christ's commandments
« Reply #210 on: Wed Jun 12, 2019 - 15:29:50 »

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Re: Christ's commandments
« Reply #211 on: Wed Jun 12, 2019 - 18:13:12 »
A covenant is an agreement between two or more parties.  What is the agreement presented in Exodus 34:27-28?  You keep asking that question. You must see something that I don't think is really there.  But perhaps you can enlighten us.  What is the covenant; what is the agreement?

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Re: Christ's commandments
« Reply #211 on: Wed Jun 12, 2019 - 18:13:12 »

Offline current occupant2

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Re: Christ's commandments
« Reply #212 on: Wed Jun 12, 2019 - 23:05:49 »
A covenant is an agreement between two or more parties.  What is the agreement presented in Exodus 34:27-28?  You keep asking that question. You must see something that I don't think is really there.  But perhaps you can enlighten us.  What is the covenant; what is the agreement?


TELL US 4WD.... 

WHAT did God write on the Tables?

Exodus 34:28 tells us us that God wrote the words of the Covenant on the tables -

That is why they are called ‘the tables of the Covenant’ in several places in the bible. 

What does Exodus 34:28 tell us that the words of the covenant were?

It tells us that the words of the Covenant were the words of the Ten Commandments. 


And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.
Exodus 34:27-28

Now tell us - what are the words of the Covenant?

Deuteronomy 4:13 makes it plain as well. 

And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.
Deuteronomy 4:13

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Re: Christ's commandments
« Reply #213 on: Thu Jun 13, 2019 - 06:02:36 »
It tells us that the words of the Covenant were the words of the Ten Commandments. 
What does that mean?  I think you are a bit confused.  I don't think you really know what a covenant is, let alone the Old Covenant.

Exo 24:7  Then he took the Book of the Covenant and read it in the hearing of the people. And they said, "All that the LORD has spoken we will do, and we will be obedient."

What was that Book of the Covenant?  What was in it?  A list of the 10 commandments?  That's all?  I don't think so.  Read and study Exodus 19:1-24:18 and you will at least begin to understand the covenant.

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Re: Christ's commandments
« Reply #213 on: Thu Jun 13, 2019 - 06:02:36 »

Offline GB

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Re: Christ's commandments
« Reply #214 on: Thu Jun 13, 2019 - 07:16:39 »
How did you manage to miss the words of Exodus 34:28 in my post. 

Can’t you even read the words in my post?  Why do you go off on tangents to what was posted?

You must have missed the question in my post...  here it is again....

PLEASE TELL US WHAT THE WORDS OF THE OLD COVENANT WERE...  ACCORDING TO THESE VERSES. 

And the Lord said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel. And he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water.

And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.
Exodus 34:27-28

Now tell us - what are the words of the Covenant?

I don't think you understand what a covenant is. A covenant is an agreement, in this case, an agreement between God and God's People. The 10 Commandments were only one aspect of the Covenant. Surely you know that.

This Covenant was, in part, the same Covenant God had with Abraham Isaac and Jacob.

Ex. 2:23 And it came to pass in process of time, that the king of Egypt died: and the children of Israel sighed by reason of the bondage, and they cried, and their cry came up unto God by reason of the bondage.

24 And God heard their groaning, and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob.

But in this Covenant with Abraham's Children, God "ADDED" Law to His Covenant with Abraham because of transgressions as Paul tells us (Gal. 3:19). This Added Law addressed a part of the Agreement, or covenant that had to do with how God's Laws were administered, and how to deal with transgression of God's Law. This Law was given to specifically the Levites. We know Abraham Had God's Laws, and an agreement/Covenant with Him. And we know Levi wasn't born until after Abraham was dead. So we know Abraham was justified "apart" from this Law.

So God had written down His Covenant with Abraham, and He also had written down Laws which Abraham didn't have. This Law dealt with how God's Laws are administered, and how transgression of God's Laws were atoned for.

These part of God's Covenant with Israel was to represent the sacrifice of the Christ, and was to be in effect until the Christ came and fulfilled this "Shadow" as it is called. Paul explains.

Gal. 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

So that brings us to the Creator of the New Covenant? Who, as He clearly stated, promised a time "after those days" when He would take over the duties of the Priesthood pertaining to the Administration of God's Commandments, and the "works of the Law" for atonement/justification of sins.

Yes, I know there are "many" who come in His Name, that preach the Christ "took away" the part of His Covenant with Abraham pertaining to God Commandments. But the Scriptures don't teach that, unless you omit many of them.





 

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Re: Christ's commandments
« Reply #214 on: Thu Jun 13, 2019 - 07:16:39 »



Offline current occupant2

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Re: Christ's commandments
« Reply #215 on: Thu Jun 13, 2019 - 07:49:40 »
What does that mean?  I think you are a bit confused.  I don't think you really know what a covenant is, let alone the Old Covenant.

Exo 24:7  Then he took the Book of the Covenant and read it in the hearing of the people. And they said, "All that the LORD has spoken we will do, and we will be obedient."

What was that Book of the Covenant?  What was in it?  A list of the 10 commandments?  That's all?  I don't think so.  Read and study Exodus 19:1-24:18 and you will at least begin to understand the covenant.


Awe yes...  the book of the Law.   

Exodus 24:1-8 tells us that it contained “all that the Lord has spoken”. 

That would have included at that time, at a minimum, all the words of Exodus 20:1-17, 22-26 and all of Chapters 21,22 and 23.

I don’t believe that the tables of the Covenant contained any less than that because of what we are told in Ex. 34:28 and Deut 4:13 that I quoted above.

Then there is the fact that the use of the word “commandments” in our english translations of the Bible is a mistranslation of the original Hebrew which does NOT use the Hebrew word for ‘commandments’ and that Hebrew word does not mean ‘commandments’.

The original Hebrew word ( they are called Aseret ha-D'varim) means ‘the ten sayings’ ‘the ten words’, ‘the ten things’ ‘the ten declarations’ or ‘the ten statements’ and is considered by the Jews to signify categories into which “all the words that the lord has spoken” (Ex. 24:1-8) fit. 

http://www.jewfaq.org/m/10.htm

Offline current occupant2

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Re: Christ's commandments
« Reply #216 on: Thu Jun 13, 2019 - 08:01:06 »
I don't think you understand what a covenant is. A covenant is an agreement, in this case, an agreement between God and God's People. The 10 Commandments were only one aspect of the Covenant. Surely you know that.

This Covenant was, in part, the same Covenant God had with Abraham Isaac and Jacob.

Ex. 2:23 And it came to pass in process of time, that the king of Egypt died: and the children of Israel sighed by reason of the bondage, and they cried, and their cry came up unto God by reason of the bondage.

24 And God heard their groaning, and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob.

But in this Covenant with Abraham's Children, God "ADDED" Law to His Covenant with Abraham because of transgressions as Paul tells us (Gal. 3:19). This Added Law addressed a part of the Agreement, or covenant that had to do with how God's Laws were administered, and how to deal with transgression of God's Law. This Law was given to specifically the Levites. We know Abraham Had God's Laws, and an agreement/Covenant with Him. And we know Levi wasn't born until after Abraham was dead. So we know Abraham was justified "apart" from this Law.

So God had written down His Covenant with Abraham, and He also had written down Laws which Abraham didn't have. This Law dealt with how God's Laws are administered, and how transgression of God's Laws were atoned for.

These part of God's Covenant with Israel was to represent the sacrifice of the Christ, and was to be in effect until the Christ came and fulfilled this "Shadow" as it is called. Paul explains.

Gal. 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

So that brings us to the Creator of the New Covenant? Who, as He clearly stated, promised a time "after those days" when He would take over the duties of the Priesthood pertaining to the Administration of God's Commandments, and the "works of the Law" for atonement/justification of sins.

Yes, I know there are "many" who come in His Name, that preach the Christ "took away" the part of His Covenant with Abraham pertaining to God Commandments. But the Scriptures don't teach that, unless you omit many of them.

Yes, ‘the ten commandments’ were much more than just the verses in Exodus 20:1-17.  Please read my post to 4WD. 

The words of the covenant were the word of ‘the ten statements’ that God made to the house of Jacob as identified in Exodus 19. 

The words of the Covenant were the words recorded in the Book of the Law that Moses wrote and dedicated with blood before the people as described in Exodus 24L:7,8.  The book of Hebrews describes this as the dedication of the FIRST COVENANT in Hebrews 9:18-20. 


The book of Hebrews also describes this ‘FIRST COVENANT’ as ‘taken away’.

Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. [Hebrews 10:9]

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Re: Christ's commandments
« Reply #217 on: Thu Jun 13, 2019 - 08:06:49 »
CO2,
It is sad.  As far as I can tell, you still have no idea what the covenant really was or what it was all about.  And it would appear that nothing anyone here can do will change that.

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Re: Christ's commandments
« Reply #218 on: Thu Jun 13, 2019 - 08:15:19 »
I don't think you understand what a covenant is. A covenant is an agreement, in this case, an agreement between God and God's People. The 10 Commandments were only one aspect of the Covenant. Surely you know that.

This Covenant was, in part, the same Covenant God had with Abraham Isaac and Jacob.

Ex. 2:23 And it came to pass in process of time, that the king of Egypt died: and the children of Israel sighed by reason of the bondage, and they cried, and their cry came up unto God by reason of the bondage.

24 And God heard their groaning, and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob.

But in this Covenant with Abraham's Children, God "ADDED" Law to His Covenant with Abraham because of transgressions as Paul tells us (Gal. 3:19). This Added Law addressed a part of the Agreement, or covenant that had to do with how God's Laws were administered, and how to deal with transgression of God's Law. This Law was given to specifically the Levites. We know Abraham Had God's Laws, and an agreement/Covenant with Him. And we know Levi wasn't born until after Abraham was dead. So we know Abraham was justified "apart" from this Law.

So God had written down His Covenant with Abraham, and He also had written down Laws which Abraham didn't have. This Law dealt with how God's Laws are administered, and how transgression of God's Laws were atoned for.

These part of God's Covenant with Israel was to represent the sacrifice of the Christ, and was to be in effect until the Christ came and fulfilled this "Shadow" as it is called. Paul explains.

Gal. 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

So that brings us to the Creator of the New Covenant? Who, as He clearly stated, promised a time "after those days" when He would take over the duties of the Priesthood pertaining to the Administration of God's Commandments, and the "works of the Law" for atonement/justification of sins.

Yes, I know there are "many" who come in His Name, that preach the Christ "took away" the part of His Covenant with Abraham pertaining to God Commandments. But the Scriptures don't teach that, unless you omit many of them.
Yor post is a bit confusing to me because I cannot find some of your reasoning in scripture.

Law dealing with morality issues are eternal.  Ritual laws were added as God saw fit and were taken away as God saw fit.  It must not have been a sin for Abraham to marry his half-sister or to have concubines.   At that point it was not a moral issue, so Abraham certainly didn't have the adultery law to deal with.   David, on the other hand, sinned taking Bathsheba as his wife.

Many of the laws found in the Sinai covenant are included in the new covenant of Jesus and many are not.   

For anyone to tell us that we are still under the jurisdiction of a failed Sinai covenant is ludicrous.  We are wholly under the jurisdiction of the new and better covenant.  Our covenant does not have the many ritual laws that were in the Sinai covenant and that includes the weekly Sabbath that has caused so many on this board to squirm around the issues we bring to the table.

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Re: Christ's commandments
« Reply #219 on: Thu Jun 13, 2019 - 08:20:36 »
CO2,
It is sad.  As far as I can tell, you still have no idea what the covenant really was or what it was all about.  And it would appear that nothing anyone here can do will change that.
You certainly have done little to explain what the covenant WAS.   If you cannot accept the fact that a covenant is an agreement and the words of the covenant are the rules of the agreement then may God help you to understand because any other explanation would be pure folly.

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Re: Christ's commandments
« Reply #220 on: Thu Jun 13, 2019 - 08:35:40 »
CO2,
It is sad.  As far as I can tell, you still have no idea what the covenant really was or what it was all about.  And it would appear that nothing anyone here can do will change that.

What is even ‘sadder’ is that you refuse to believe the word of God that tells you that the words of the covenant are the words of the 10 commandments. 

An ‘agreement’ means nothing if the content agreed upon is missing - and you clearly wish to remove the content of the covenant. 

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Re: Christ's commandments
« Reply #221 on: Thu Jun 13, 2019 - 09:27:49 »
You certainly have done little to explain what the covenant WAS.   If you cannot accept the fact that a covenant is an agreement and the words of the covenant are the rules of the agreement then may God help you to understand because any other explanation would be pure folly.
Perhaps you missed this --

A covenant is an agreement between two or more parties.  What is the agreement presented in Exodus 34:27-28?  You keep asking that question. You must see something that I don't think is really there.  But perhaps you can enlighten us.  What is the covenant; what is the agreement?

And perhaps you also missed this  ----
Exo 24:7  Then he took the Book of the Covenant and read it in the hearing of the people. And they said, "All that the LORD has spoken we will do, and we will be obedient."

What was that Book of the Covenant?  What was in it?  A list of the 10 commandments?  That's all?  I don't think so.  Read and study Exodus 19:1-24:18 and you will at least begin to understand the covenant.


That may not help you, but so be it.

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Re: Christ's commandments
« Reply #222 on: Thu Jun 13, 2019 - 09:29:35 »
What is even ‘sadder’ is that you refuse to believe the word of God that tells you that the words of the covenant are the words of the 10 commandments. 
That is true, but those ten commandments do not comprise the whole of the covenant.  That is why I referred you to Exodus , chapters 19-24.

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Re: Christ's commandments
« Reply #223 on: Thu Jun 13, 2019 - 09:57:25 »
That is true, but those ten commandments do not comprise the whole of the covenant.  That is why I referred you to Exodus , chapters 19-24.

Yes, ‘the ten commandments’ were much more than just the verses in Exodus 20:1-17.   

The words of the covenant were the word of ‘the ten statements’ that God made to the house of Jacob as identified in Exodus 19. 

The words of the Covenant were the words recorded in the Book of the Law that Moses wrote and dedicated with blood before the people as described in Exodus 24L:7,8.  The book of Hebrews describes this as the dedication of the FIRST COVENANT in Hebrews 9:18-20. 


The book of Hebrews also describes this ‘FIRST COVENANT’ as ‘taken away’.

Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. [Hebrews 10:9]

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Re: Christ's commandments
« Reply #224 on: Thu Jun 13, 2019 - 09:59:54 »
That is true, but those ten commandments do not comprise the whole of the covenant.  That is why I referred you to Exodus , chapters 19-24.


Awe yes...  the book of the Law.   

Exodus 24:1-8 tells us that it contained “all that the Lord has spoken”. 

That would have included at that time, at a minimum, all the words of Exodus 20:1-17, 22-26 and all of Chapters 21,22 and 23.

I don’t believe that the tables of the Covenant contained any less than that because of what we are told in Ex. 34:28 and Deut 4:13 that I quoted above.

Then there is the fact that the use of the word “commandments” in our english translations of the Bible is a mistranslation of the original Hebrew which does NOT use the Hebrew word for ‘commandments’ and that Hebrew word does not mean ‘commandments’.

The original Hebrew word ( they are called Aseret ha-D'varim) means ‘the ten sayings’ ‘the ten words’, ‘the ten things’ ‘the ten declarations’ or ‘the ten statements’ and is considered by the Jews to signify categories into which “all the words that the lord has spoken” (Ex. 24:1-8) fit. 

http://www.jewfaq.org/m/10.htm

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Re: Christ's commandments
« Reply #225 on: Thu Jun 13, 2019 - 14:23:58 »
Awe yes...  the book of the Law.   

Luk 24:44  Then he said to them, "These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled."

For what it is worth, most understand that when Jesus spoke of the law [or law of Moses] and the prophets, by the law He meant the first five books, the Pentateuch or the Torah.  Thus the Law and the Prophets and the Psalms actually constituted the entire Old Testament.

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Re: Christ's commandments
« Reply #226 on: Fri Jun 14, 2019 - 03:28:50 »
Quote
CO2: #223
The words of the Covenant were the words recorded in the Book of the Law that Moses wrote and dedicated with blood before the people as described in Exodus 24L:7,8.  The book of Hebrews describes this as the dedication of the FIRST COVENANT in Hebrews 9:18-20. 

The book of Hebrews also describes this ‘FIRST COVENANT’ as ‘taken away’.

Hebrews 9:18-20 is not about any <FIRST COVENANT> but about the "MINISTRATION" first started by GOD in Genesis 3:8 further, and first "MINISTERED" in Law-of-Writing, by GOD through Moses in Exodus 16 further.

This <Covenant> is nowhere described as <FIRST COVENANT> and was never <the dedication of the FIRST COVENANT> but the Old Testament "IN TIME PAST" application / execution / ministry / administration of GOD'S LAWS unto and until Jesus Christ "by (whom) GOD in these last days spoke" and is speaking.
« Last Edit: Sat Jun 15, 2019 - 12:01:46 by Gerhard Ebersöhn »

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Re: Christ's commandments
« Reply #227 on: Fri Jun 14, 2019 - 04:37:55 »
Hebrews 9:18-20 is not about any <FIRST COVENANT> but about the "MINISTRATION" first started by GOD in Genesis 3:8 further, and first "MINISTERED" in Law-of-Writing, by GOD through Moses in Exodus 16 further.

This "Covenant" is nowhere described as <FIRST COVENANT> and was never <the dedication of the FIRST COVENANT> but the Old Testament "IN TIME PAST" application / execution / ministry / administration of GOD'S LAWS unto and until Jesus Christ "by (whom) GOD in these days spoke" and is speaking.
 


Hebrews 9: 18 Therefore not even the FIRST COVENANT was inaugurated without blood. 19 For when every commandment of the law had been declared by Moses to all the people, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, 20saying, “This is the blood of the covenant that God commanded for you.”  (Emphasis mine)

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Re: Christ's commandments
« Reply #228 on: Fri Jun 14, 2019 - 07:21:14 »
Quote
author=beam link=topic=104020.msg1055140996#msg1055140996 date=1560431719]
Yor post is a bit confusing to me because I cannot find some of your reasoning in scripture.

Law dealing with morality issues are eternal.  Ritual laws were added as God saw fit and were taken away as God saw fit.  It must not have been a sin for Abraham to marry his half-sister or to have concubines.   At that point it was not a moral issue, so Abraham certainly didn't have the adultery law to deal with.   David, on the other hand, sinned taking Bathsheba as his wife.

There can be no doubt that Abram sinned before God called Him to "deny Himself" and follow Him in Gen. 12. And although it is not advised, and the practice was warned against, there is no Law of God making it a sin to marry more than one woman. Just like it is not a Law to drink to much wine, but it is advised against in wisdom for obvious reasons. King Solomon found the snares which come from multiple wives and his story is written for an example to us of what a "deacon" should be. But there is not a "LAW" against it.

There is a Law against killing a man and stealing His Wife.

2 Sam. 12:8 And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things.

9 Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon.

 David's sins were atoned for according to the Priesthood Laws joined to Israel on Sinai for the atonement of sins. (Shadow of the Christ's sacrifice) But Abraham did not have this Priesthood. He didn't have the ritual "works of the Law" for atonement as did David.

Your attempt to equate Abram's marriage to Sarah with David's murder of an innocent man, just to justify your own religious belief, is a perfect example of what Jesus warned of. I know you mean well, but you should really consider the Christ's Words regarding what sin actually is before teaching about them.

Quote
Many of the laws found in the Sinai covenant are included in the new covenant of Jesus and many are not. 

This is your religious belief, just like the teaching that God created 613 different Laws for His people to obey.

The Christ, in His infinite wisdom, tells us exactly what the New Covenant is. He said "This is the Covenant". He teaches that it wasn't "God's Law" that became obsolete, or even parts of God's Law that became obsolete. He teaches the exact opposite. "Not one jot or title shall pass". He teaches it is the manner in which God's Laws are administered, and the manner in which transgression of God's Law is atoned for.

As For God's Law themselves, He said He writes them on His Peoples heart. I assume from experience that this is so we can understand them, and not forget them in this evil time.

Quote
For anyone to tell us that we are still under the jurisdiction of a failed Sinai covenant is ludicrous.  We are wholly under the jurisdiction of the new and better covenant.

All I'm doing is showing you in your own Bible what the Christ, the creator of His New Covenant, teaches us His New Covenant is.

When you say "for anyone to tell us", are you also including the Christ Himself?

Quote
  Our covenant does not have the many ritual laws that were in the Sinai covenant and that includes the weekly Sabbath that has caused so many on this board to squirm around the issues we bring to the table.

This is true, YOUR covenant does not include the Sabbath of the Christ that HE created for His people.




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Re: Christ's commandments
« Reply #229 on: Fri Jun 14, 2019 - 08:11:35 »
David's sins were atoned for according to the Priesthood Laws joined to Israel on Sinai for the atonement of sins.
What do you think that means?   That is, what was accomplished in that atonement according to the Old Covenant? What did such atonement do or gain for David?

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Re: Christ's commandments
« Reply #230 on: Fri Jun 14, 2019 - 08:46:32 »
What do you think that means?   That is, what was accomplished in that atonement according to the Old Covenant? What did such atonement do or gain for David?

I am only pointing out Biblical facts 4WD. I'm not making a case for what the "Works" actually did, only pointing out that the Works were Law until "After those days".

And that the "Works of the Law" that David were under regarding atonement, are different than the Law Abraham was under regarding atonement. In fact, the Work's of the Law regarding atonement wasn't "ADDED" until 430 years after Abraham, as it is written.

This is just a Biblical Fact. You may find these facts weird, but they are Biblical Facts just the same.






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Re: Christ's commandments
« Reply #231 on: Fri Jun 14, 2019 - 08:52:24 »
I am only pointing out Biblical facts 4WD. I'm not making a case for what the "Works" actually did, only pointing out that the Works were Law until "After those days".

And that the "Works of the Law" that David were under regarding atonement, are different than the Law Abraham was under regarding atonement. In fact, the Work's of the Law regarding atonement wasn't "ADDED" until 430 years after Abraham, as it is written.

This is just a Biblical Fact. You may find these facts weird, but they are Biblical Facts just the same.
No, that is not Biblical Fact.  That is your interpretation.  Your views on what constitutes "works of Law" that Paul and other NT writers spoke of is not at all typical, to the point of just plain weird.

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Re: Christ's commandments
« Reply #232 on: Fri Jun 14, 2019 - 16:53:26 »
No, that is not Biblical Fact.  That is your interpretation.  Your views on what constitutes "works of Law" that Paul and other NT writers spoke of is not at all typical, to the point of just plain weird.

Well that is your religious opinion.

I think it is weird to imply that Loving God and Loving your neighbor as yourself were the "works of the Law" that the Pharisees were trying to be justified by.

But I must say that it is most definitely a Biblical fact that David and Abraham were under different "laws" where atonement is concerned. Abraham didn't have the Levitical Priesthood while David did. It is a Biblical fact that the Levitical Priesthood wasn't "ADDED" until 430 years after Abraham. I could teach as you, that this is my private understanding, but that would be a falsehood. This isn't my private interpretation as you would have others believe. It is Biblical fact, and you will not be able to prove otherwise using the Bible. You haven't brought any scriptural support for your unbelief in this Biblical fact, because biblical support for your unbelief doesn't exist.

You just don't believe it.

I'm OK with that.



 






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Re: Christ's commandments
« Reply #233 on: Sat Jun 15, 2019 - 06:20:05 »
This isn't my private interpretation as you would have others believe.
It is really sad just how often we get that really stupid comment from people.  Here at the forum, for example, you write about this and about that and then claim it to be "biblical fact".  Here is a fact; when you quote scripture, that can be considered, within the limits of accuracy and completeness of existing translations, biblical fact.  Any thing you say, other than the actual quote, is not biblical fact, it is your interpretation.

It is absolutely amazing that you or anyone else would think otherwise.

Quote from: GB
I think it is weird to imply that Loving God and Loving your neighbor as yourself were the "works of the Law" that the Pharisees were trying to be justified by.
I think itt would be weird too if anyone implied that.  But I don't know anyone here who has.  I can't believe anyone would even think that, let alone try to convince anyone else of that.


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Re: Christ's commandments
« Reply #234 on: Sat Jun 15, 2019 - 10:25:27 »
Quote
author=4WD link=topic=104020.msg1055141107#msg1055141107 date=1560597605]
It is really sad just how often we get that really stupid comment from people.  Here at the forum, for example, you write about this and about that and then claim it to be "biblical fact".  Here is a fact; when you quote scripture, that can be considered, within the limits of accuracy and completeness of existing translations, biblical fact.  Any thing you say, other than the actual quote, is not biblical fact, it is your interpretation.

And yet you only offer your own words in opposition. this is because the Word's of the Bible do not refute what I call "Biblical Facts", otherwise you would have posted them.

This understanding I have goes against "YOUR" religion. It doesn't go against any of the Word's of the Bible. It is Biblical Fact that David was under the Levitical Priesthood. And it is a Biblical Fact that Abraham was not. You may not believe this truth, it may go against your religious traditions, but you can't refute it using God's Words.

So it is not "my" interpretation that David was under a different Law than Abraham where atonement is concerned. This is a simple Biblical Fact that can be shown you in your own Bible.

Think about why it is so important for you to reject this Biblical Fact. Why would you do such a thing?

Quote
It is absolutely amazing that you or anyone else would think otherwise.
 I think itt would be weird too if anyone implied that.  But I don't know anyone here who has.  I can't believe anyone would even think that, let alone try to convince anyone else of that.

You and "many" others who come in Christ's Name, preach that Paul is speaking about the whole Law of God when He is speaking about the Pharisees trying to be justified by "works of the Law".

When you are shown in your own Bible, that God gave specific "Works" for the atonement of sins, to the Levites for a Priesthood, you ignore it, just as you deny that Abraham and David were under different "Laws" where atonement is concerned calling it "my interpretation".

You believe, it seems, as "many" others, that the Jews were trying to get the Gentiles and the Galatians to follow God's Laws for justification of sins. To deny that is simply being dishonest. You have even denied that there was a "Law" pertaining to justification given by God to Levites. Saying instead that God "ADDED" His entire Law, including the command to Love Him and Love your neighbors, 430 years after Abraham was Blessed for obeying God's Commandments as if they were not included in the Laws and Commandments the Christ gave Abraham which he obeyed.

So then given you, and the entire mainstream religious body for the most part, preach that the Work's of the Law Paul speaks to, are not the "works" given the Levites for atonement that the Jews were still promoting in Paul's time, but are the "works" of the entire Law including the First and Greatest Commandment, along with the 2nd.

Thus implying that the Jews were "bewitching" the Galatians by preaching to them they will receive the Spirit by keeping "all" of God's Laws including, but not limited to "Loving God and loving their neighbors.

How can this not be true given your own words regarding the "works of the Law" Paul spoke to?

The Christ has prophesied about the "works of the Law" many times in His Law and Prophets.

Micah 6:6 Wherewith shall I come before the LORD, and bow myself before the high God? shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves of a year old?

7 Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?

8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

The Jews were not teaching this, they were still promoting "burnt offering" while omitting the "weightier matters of the Law" like mercy, judgment and Faith. At least according to the Jesus of the Bible.

But if you refuse to accept the simple Biblical fact that Abraham didn't have the Levitical Priesthood, while David did, how can you expect to "know" other truths?












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Re: Christ's commandments
« Reply #235 on: Sat Jun 15, 2019 - 12:14:39 »
But if you refuse to accept the simple Biblical fact that Abraham didn't have the Levitical Priesthood, while David did, how can you expect to "know" other truths?
No one here that I know of has ever denied that the Levitical priesthood was instituted after Abraham.

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Re: Christ's commandments
« Reply #236 on: Sat Jun 15, 2019 - 12:59:46 »
Quote
Piecrust: #227
Hebrews 9: 18 Therefore not even the FIRST COVENANT was inaugurated without blood. 19 For when every commandment of the law had been declared by Moses to all the people, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, 20saying, “This is the blood of the covenant that God commanded for you.”  (Emphasis mine)

18Ὅθεν οὐδὲ ἡ πρώτη χωρὶς αἵματος ἐνκεκαίνισται. 19λαληθείσης γὰρ πάσης ἐντολῆς κατὰ τὸν νόμον ὑπὸ Μωϋσέως παντὶ τῷ λαῷ, λαβὼν τὸ αἷμα τῶν μόσχων καὶ τῶν τράγων μετὰ ὕδατος καὶ ἐρίου κοκκίνου καὶ ὑσσώπου, αὐτό τε τὸ βιβλίον καὶ πάντα τὸν λαὸν ἐράντισεν,

Greek: "the first" ... no word <COVENANT>.
So also Berean Literal.
DBT, ERV, Young's Literal "first tabernacle"
CEV "first promise"
KJV "first testament" cursive
KJV "first covenant" cursive
Aramaic "in the first there was an order of ministry and a worldly sanctuary"

THE WHOLE CONTEXT in Hebrews 9 is about CONTRASTING the SERVICE of ANIMAL sacrifices ADMINISTERED by earthly priests with Christ's Ministration of the New Covenant.

"The first MINISTRATION" is the correct rendering and interpretation. 'Covenant' is the wrong word. The Roman Catholics and Dispensationalists with this one word make of Jesus' whole Ministry of God's Eternal COVENANT of Grace, the abomination of desolation!   



« Last Edit: Sun Jun 16, 2019 - 00:05:47 by Gerhard Ebersöhn »

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Re: Christ's commandments
« Reply #237 on: Sat Jun 15, 2019 - 13:41:07 »
18Ὅθεν οὐδὲ ἡ πρώτη χωρὶς αἵματος ἐνκεκαίνισται. 19λαληθείσης γὰρ πάσης ἐντολῆς κατὰ τὸν νόμον ὑπὸ Μωϋσέως παντὶ τῷ λαῷ, λαβὼν τὸ αἷμα τῶν μόσχων καὶ τῶν τράγων μετὰ ὕδατος καὶ ἐρίου κοκκίνου καὶ ὑσσώπου, αὐτό τε τὸ βιβλίον καὶ πάντα τὸν λαὸν ἐράντισεν,

Greek: "the first" ... no word <COVENANT>.
So also Berean Literal.
DBT, ERV, Young's Literal "first tabernacle"
CEV "first promise"
KJV "first testament" cursive
KJV "first covenant" cursive
Aramaic "in the first there was an order of ministry and a worldly sanctuary"

THE WHOLE CONTEXT in Hebrews 9 is about CONTRASTING the SERVICE of ANIMAL sacrifices ADMINISTERED by earthly priests with Christ's Ministration of the New Covenant.

"The first MINISTRATION" is the correct rendering and interpretation. 'Covenant' is the wrong word. The Roman Catholics and Evangelicals with this one word make of Jesus' whole Ministry of God's Eternal COVENANT of Grace, the abomination of desolation!
Nah, you are a little off base here.  Clearly the writer here is contrasting the the old and new covenants.

Heb 9:16  ὅπου γὰρ διαθήκη, θάνατον ἀνάγκη φέρεσθαι τοῦ διαθεμένου·
Heb 9:17  διαθήκη γὰρ ἐπὶ νεκροῖς βεβαία, ἐπεὶ μήποτε ἰσχύει ὅτε ζῇ ὁ διαθέμενος.

διαθήκη--covenant or testament.

Heb 9:18  ῞Οθεν οὐδ᾿ ἡ πρώτη χωρὶς αἵματος ἐγκεκαίνισται·

Clearly theπ "ρώτη", meaning first, in verse 18 is referring to the διαθήκη spoken of in verses 16-17.  Either covenant, as in the ESV, or testament, as in the KJV, is appropriate. (I think covenant is best.)

Heb 9:15  Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.
Heb 9:16  For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established.
Heb 9:17  For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive.
Heb 9:18  Therefore not even the first covenant was inaugurated without blood.
Heb 9:19  For when every commandment of the law had been declared by Moses to all the people, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people,
Heb 9:20  saying, "This is the blood of the διαθήκη covenant that God commanded for you." 

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Re: Christ's commandments
« Reply #238 on: Sat Jun 15, 2019 - 14:19:11 »
No one here that I know of has ever denied that the Levitical priesthood was instituted after Abraham.

When I made this point, you called it "my interpretation", I must have misunderstood you. How long after Abraham does the scriptures teach the Levitical Priesthood was instituted?

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Re: Christ's commandments
« Reply #239 on: Sat Jun 15, 2019 - 17:23:47 »
When I made this point, you called it "my interpretation", I must have misunderstood you. How long after Abraham does the scriptures teach the Levitical Priesthood was instituted?
Why does it matter whether it was one year or a thousand?

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Re: Christ's commandments
« Reply #240 on: Sun Jun 16, 2019 - 02:12:22 »
Quote
4WD: #237
Nah, you are a little off base here.  Clearly the writer here is contrasting the the old and new covenants.

Heb 9:16  ὅπου γὰρ διαθήκη, θάνατον ἀνάγκη φέρεσθαι τοῦ διαθεμένου·
Heb 9:17  διαθήκη γὰρ ἐπὶ νεκροῖς βεβαία, ἐπεὶ μήποτε ἰσχύει ὅτε ζῇ ὁ διαθέμενος.

διαθήκη--covenant or testament.

Heb 9:18  ῞Οθεν οὐδ᾿ ἡ πρώτη χωρὶς αἵματος ἐγκεκαίνισται·

Clearly theπ "πρώτη", meaning first, in verse 18 is referring to the διαθήκη spoken of in verses 16-17.  Either covenant, as in the ESV, or testament, as in the KJV, is appropriate. (I think covenant is best.)

Heb 9:15  Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.
Heb 9:16  For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established.
Heb 9:17  For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive.
Heb 9:18  Therefore not even the first covenant was inaugurated without blood.
Heb 9:19  For when every commandment of the law had been declared by Moses to all the people, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people,
Heb 9:20  saying, "This is the blood of the διαθήκη covenant that God commanded for you."

Clearly "πρώτη" in verse 18 is NOT <referring to the διαθήκη spoken of in verses 16-17>.

It is for certain that the blood mentioned in these verses was the blood of animals to which death was "administered" by mortal priests. Hebrews 9:18, 'hothen' "FROM WHICH CIRCUMSTANCE -because of the death of these animal, blood-sacrifices- IT FOLLOWS that the first MINISTRATION (NOT <covenant>!) was initiated / administered not without blood."

The whole point with saying this ABOUT ANIMAL SACRIFICE, was, to stress that the Covenant "He" - Christ, was the Administrator and Mediator of - was "a New Covenant", in fact THE NEW and ETERNAL Covenant of God's grace, "so that those who are called may receive the Promise of Eternal Inheritance".

Therefore Hebrews 9:20, "This is the blood of the διαθήκη covenant that God commanded for you" is GOD'S Covenant for Israel UNTIL CHRIST. Not Moses, but GOD instructed it. In its appropriate time-setting it was God's Eternal Covenant of Grace. BUT IT NEVER WAS <the old covenant> which has always been the undertaking and oath of faithfulness which man pledged and no sooner broke.

In its time the ministration of blood sacrifice was how God maintained his Presence in the lost world.
Jesus' Priesthood though was not a continuation of "the blood of the διαθήκη covenant that God commanded for you (Israel)", “since a Death has occurred that (really) REDEEMS them from the transgressions”. Therefore the Sacrifice Christ made of Himself brought an end to blood sacrifices seeing THAT HE POURED OUT HIS SOUL "so that those who are called may receive the Promise of Eternal Inheritance". 




« Last Edit: Sun Jun 16, 2019 - 02:28:50 by Gerhard Ebersöhn »

Offline Gerhard Ebersöhn

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Re: Christ's commandments
« Reply #241 on: Sun Jun 16, 2019 - 04:47:30 »
Quote
4WD: #211
A covenant is an agreement between two or more parties.  What is the agreement presented in Exodus 34:27-28?  You keep asking that question. You must see something that I don't think is really there.  But perhaps you can enlighten us.  What is the covenant; what is the agreement?

No covenant of God is <an agreement between two or more parties> independent of one another, least The New Covenant of God's Eternal Purpose in Christ which He (unilaterally) covenanted in Eternal Council and Full Fellowship of God the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, and IN TIME FOR THE TIME GOD PURPOSED, the LORD "wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments." Exodus 34:28. These were NEW and ETERNAL Covenant "words", "for you" the children of Israel. They were NOT words of any 'old covenant'-so-called because they were not words of man, but of God.

God has ever had but ONE and as He, Eternal, Covenant, the Covenant of his Grace through Jesus Christ, in all of the Scriptures and through all ages, the only, "New Covenant".


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Re: Christ's commandments
« Reply #242 on: Sun Jun 16, 2019 - 07:04:54 »
What ever.

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Re: Christ's commandments
« Reply #243 on: Sun Jun 16, 2019 - 07:39:26 »
Why does it matter whether it was one year or a thousand?

LOL, OK 4WD.

 

     
anything