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Christian Interests => Organized Religion and Religious Movements Discussions => Seventh Day Adventist Forum => Topic started by: beam on Sat Jun 15, 2019 - 09:36:53

Title: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: beam on Sat Jun 15, 2019 - 09:36:53
SDAs like to dismiss Ellen's writing concerning photographs as being the cost back then.  The fact is that Ellen's angel told her that photographs are IDOLS and money should not be used to buy those idols.   Set aside the cost and consider the fact that the angel called the pictures idols.

During the night I was sorely distressed. A great burden rested upon me. I had been pleading with God to work in behalf of His people. My attention was called to the money which they have invested in photographs. I was taken from house to house, through the homes of our people, and as I went from room to room, my Instructor said, “Behold the idols which have accumulated!” {RH September 10, 1901, par. 1}

As I visited the homes of our people and our schools, I see that all the available space on tables, what-nots, and mantelpieces is filled up with photographs. On the right hand and on the left are seen the pictures of human faces. God desires this order of things to be changed. Were Christ on earth, He would say, “Take these things hence.” I have been instructed that these pictures are as so many idols, taking up the time and thought which should be sacredly devoted to God. {RH September 10, 1901, par. 2}
These photographs cost money. Is it consistent for us, knowing the work that is to be done at this time, to spend God’s money in producing pictures of our own faces and the faces of our friends? Should not every dollar that we can spare be used in the upbuilding of the cause of God? These pictures take money that should be sacredly devoted to God’s service; and they divert the mind from the truths of God’s word. {RH September 10, 1901, par. 3}
This making and exchanging photographs is a species of idolatry. Satan is doing all he can to eclipse heaven from our view. Let us not help him by making picture-idols. We need to reach a higher standard than these human faces suggest. The Lord says, “Thou shalt have no other gods before me.” Those who claim to believe in Christ need to realize that they are to reflect His image. It is His likeness that is to be kept before the mind. The words that are spoken are to be freighted with heavenly inspiration. {RH September 10, 1901, par. 4}

Why have SDAs completely ignore Ellen's "instructor"?   Why are the SDA magazines full of these idols?   
Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: Amo on Sat Jun 15, 2019 - 11:37:33
This again?
Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: beam on Sat Jun 15, 2019 - 13:49:25
I realize you would like to hide it under a barrel.
Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: Amo on Sat Jun 15, 2019 - 19:09:37
It has already been addressed. Broken record Beam would like to go over it again though. OK.

Quote
MESSAGES TO YOUNG PEOPLE, PAGE 316

Chapter 105—Self-gratification


As I visit the homes of our people and our schools, I see that all the available space on tables, what-nots, and mantelpieces is filled up with photographs. On the right hand and on the left are seen the pictures of human faces. God desires this order of things to be changed. Were Christ on earth, He would say, “Take these things hence.” I have been instructed that these pictures are as so many idols, taking up the time and thought which should be sacredly devoted to God.

These photographs cost money. Is it consistent for us, knowing the work that is to be done at this time, to spend God's money in producing pictures of our own faces and the faces of our friends? Should not every dollar that we can spare be used in the upbuilding of the cause of God? These pictures take money that should be sacredly devoted to God's service; and they divert the mind from the truths of God's Word.

A Species of Idolatry

This making and exchanging photographs is a species of idolatry. Satan is doing all he can to eclipse heaven from our view. Let us not help him by making picture-idols. We need to reach a higher standard than these human faces suggest. The Lord says, “Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.” Those who claim to believe in Christ need to realize that they are to reflect His image. It is His likeness that is to be kept before the mind. The words that are spoken are to be freighted with heavenly inspiration....

First Things First

Those who have taken part in the solemn rite of baptism have pledged themselves to seek for those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God; pledged themselves to labor earnestly for the salvation of sinners. God asks those who take His name, How are you using the powers that have been redeemed by the death of My Son? Are you doing all in your power to rise to a greater height in spiritual understanding? Are you adjusting your interests and actions in harmony with the momentous claims of eternity?

Let there be a reformation among the people of God. “Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.” Those upon whom the Lord has placed the burden of His work are struggling to proclaim the message, that souls perishing in ignorance may be warned. Can you not, by self-denial, do something to help them in their work? Arouse, and show by your unselfish zeal and earnestness that you are converted.

Every dollar is required in the work of saving souls. The money invested by the professed people of God in getting pictures made of human faces would support several missionaries in the field. Many small streams, when put together, swell into a large river. We embezzle our Lord's goods when we use for selfish pleasure the means which should be used to proclaim the last message of warning.

If you spend the Lord's money for self-gratification, how can you expect Him to continue to bestow His goods on you? How does the Master regard those who selfishly invest His money in photographs? That very money could have been used to purchase reading matter to send to those in the darkness of ignorance.

The truth that God has given us must be heralded to the world. We have been given the privilege of doing this work. We are to sow the seed of truth beside all waters. The Lord calls upon us to practice self-denial and self-sacrifice. The gospel demands entire consecration. The necessities of the cause demand all that we can give. Our indulgence in photographs has been a selfish gratification on our part, which bears silent witness against us. By this indulgence a large amount of wood, hay, and stubble has been brought to the foundation, to be consumed by the fires of the last day.


http://www.phototree.com/article_worth.htm

Quote
Cost of Photos in the 1800s - In Today's Value.

by Gary W. Clark

What Was the Real Cost of Your Ancestors' Photos?

Early photographs were very expensive; mostly due to high material costs, and few photographers with the required expertise.

For example, the daguerreotype, announced publicly in 1839, was a copper sheet, plated with silver, polished meticulously, then processed with a variety of chemicals. All of that even before the picture was taken.

Successive processes including the ambrotype, tintype, then paper photographs brought the price of a photograph down dramatically.

Economics of our Ancestors

The price of a photograph is part of our ancestor's economics. Many of us wonder why we do not have photographs of some ancestors. There may be many reasons: Photographs were passed to other branches of your tree, or the photos were lost or destroyed by natural disasters or fires. However, an overall reason for lack of photos may be the scarcity of them in the first place.

Many people, and certainly the pioneers of the 19th century lived off what they could produce from the land. Actual currency may have been very scarce for them. A frivolous photograph purchase would not take precedent over a bag of flour or beans to help feed the family. The ten dollar bill may have repesented months of expenses.

Published Photograph Prices

Photo prices from the 1800s are easy to track. They were advertised in newspapers, broadsides, and even on the back of the photographs themselves. PhotoTree has many examples of these, and shares the present value with you.

We have manually calculated our own present-day costs with cost-of-living indexes from various sources. Much to our delight, a website called Measuring Worth provides a handy calculator that allows you to enter an Initial Year, Initial Amount, and Desired Year; it then will calculate the present value of the initial amount. We have checked their calculated results against other indexes and the results are in a plausible range.

In addition to this simple calculator, the website has a wealth of information about historical costs, plus a calculator for the U.K. While much of it will appeal to the economist or accountants among you, it is written and presented in a very useful manner for all of us.


Sample Photograph Costs

Photo Type                    Original Cost                            Present Value
Daguerreotype: 1842          $2.50 - 6.00                           $81.20 - 195.00
Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: piecrust on Sat Jun 15, 2019 - 19:37:01
Ellen had photographs taken of herself.  Did that mean she should be worshipped?   ::smile::
Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: Amo on Sat Jun 15, 2019 - 19:41:28
Ellen had photographs taken of herself.  Did that mean she should be worshipped?   ::smile::

I don't know if she did. The general idea was not to waste to much time and money on self. Today's selfy society is a good example of where such can lead.
Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: 139.72 on Sat Jun 15, 2019 - 20:25:57
I don't know if she did. The general idea was not to waste to much time and money on self. Today's selfy society is a good example of where such can lead.


Here ya go. Now you have a face to go with the name.

(http://i63.tinypic.com/wqrmvk.jpg)

A previously unknown photograph of Adventist Church co-founder Ellen G. White has surfaced among the aging documents of an Adventist physician who died in California in 1966.

The 1905 photo — which shows White walking outdoors with her son William and his wife, May — is the first new picture of White to turn up in decades, and its discovery is especially thrilling for White scholars because it provides a rare glimpse into her everyday life.

https://www.adventistreview.org/church-news/previously-unknown-photo-of-ellen-white-found
Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: 139.72 on Sat Jun 15, 2019 - 20:45:13
And here are James and Ellen White in younger years.

(http://i66.tinypic.com/10zcmsp.jpg)

Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: Texas Conservative on Sat Jun 15, 2019 - 22:38:17
And here are James and Ellen White in younger years.

([url]http://i66.tinypic.com/10zcmsp.jpg[/url])


One of the original American false teachers.
Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: current occupant2 on Sat Jun 15, 2019 - 23:13:14
It has already been addressed. Broken record Beam would like to go over it again though. OK.

[url]http://www.phototree.com/article_worth.htm[/url]


Yes, SDA’s and their supporters continue to obfuscate the issue surrounding Ellen’s conflicting advice and practice concerning photographs. 

Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: current occupant2 on Sat Jun 15, 2019 - 23:20:44
I don't know if she did. The general idea was not to waste to much time and money on self. Today's selfy society is a good example of where such can lead.

You are defending someone and you don’t even know all sides of the issue concerning their practice. 

Yes, it is on record that Ellen spoke of getting photographed and having photographs. 

You have already documented the extra expense of photographs back then - money that she wanted given to her pet projects of Adventism. 

As for time - yes photographs take much time - way more time than they do now and the cost more then than they do now in dollars that are adjusted for inflation. 

Your ‘iprophet’ is a joke. 
Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: beam on Sun Jun 16, 2019 - 00:04:05
You are defending someone and you don’t even know all sides of the issue concerning their practice. 

Yes, it is on record that Ellen spoke of getting photographed and having photographs. 

You have already documented the extra expense of photographs back then - money that she wanted given to her pet projects of Adventism. 

As for time - yes photographs take much time - way more time than they do now and the cost more then than they do now in dollars that are adjusted for inflation. 

Your ‘iprophet’ is a joke.
Money and time are two things, but the real issue is her "instructor" told her photographs are IDOLS.  This is just another example of the two sides of Ellen. 

The flock was not to buy bicycles because they cost too much, but Ellen spent money at Dr Jackson getting her boys heads measured.  This voodoo was called phrenology and we know now it was a farce.  Ellen's angel must have been on vacation.
Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: Amo on Sun Jun 16, 2019 - 11:06:47
Yes, there are photos of EGW. Does that mean she contradicted her own advice? No, it does not. We don't know if she had them taken or they were taken by others. Nor did she condemn photos altogether, but rather wasting time and money on such with self in mind over God. Those who bring forth the accusation that she hypocritically practiced that which she preached against for others, will stand beside her in judgment and either receive commendation for pointing out truth, or condemnation for bearing false witness. So be it. Those who have twisted her words or the words of any other, will stand in judgment as liars. So be it. May God judge between us all, as He is and will.
Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: Amo on Sun Jun 16, 2019 - 11:10:45
You are defending someone and you don’t even know all sides of the issue concerning their practice. 

Yes, it is on record that Ellen spoke of getting photographed and having photographs. 

You have already documented the extra expense of photographs back then - money that she wanted given to her pet projects of Adventism. 

As for time - yes photographs take much time - way more time than they do now and the cost more then than they do now in dollars that are adjusted for inflation. 

Your ‘iprophet’ is a joke.

Yes of course, because you do no all sides of the issues, practice, and motives of EGW, don't you? Even if she were a joke, correct or not, you will stand condemned before God for calling anyone our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ died for a joke.
Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: Amo on Sun Jun 16, 2019 - 11:20:04
Yes, SDA’s and their supporters continue to obfuscate the issue surrounding Ellen’s conflicting advice and practice concerning photographs.

Yes of course, co2 said so. Showing the very high price of photos during EGW's day when one of the problems EGW had with photos was their high cost, is obfuscating the issue. Stop being such a lefty progressive co2, by condemning facts as evil plots. Lefties are so confused by facts because what they choose to believe is not based upon them. To the contrary, their own testimony is passed off as indisputable truth, apart from the facts.
Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: Amo on Sun Jun 16, 2019 - 11:25:49
Money and time are two things, but the real issue is her "instructor" told her photographs are IDOLS.  This is just another example of the two sides of Ellen. 

The flock was not to buy bicycles because they cost too much, but Ellen spent money at Dr Jackson getting her boys heads measured.  This voodoo was called phrenology and we know now it was a farce.  Ellen's angel must have been on vacation.

Beam, another self proclaimed expert of the issues, practice, and motives of EGW. Your reward or condemnation awaits you for such, just like the rest of us.
Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: piecrust on Sun Jun 16, 2019 - 22:10:50
Beam, another self proclaimed expert of the issues, practice, and motives of EGW. Your reward or condemnation awaits you for such, just like the rest of us.

Why do you need to defend her?
Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: beam on Mon Jun 17, 2019 - 21:55:21
Hi Amo, you are skirting the point, but we would expect that of you now wouldn't we?    The fact is that Ellen's "instructor" said that photos ARE idols.  Don't skirt the main fact of my opening statement.


"SDAs like to dismiss Ellen's writing concerning photographs as being the cost back then.  The fact is that Ellen's angel told her that photographs are IDOLS and money should not be used to buy those idols.   Set aside the cost and consider the fact that the angel called the pictures idols."

Do you have any of those idols in your home?   Just because they cost less today doesn't change the fact that they are idols.  But who pays any attention to the revered prophet?
Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: Amo on Sat Jun 22, 2019 - 09:54:46
Why do you need to defend her?

Why do you need to attack her? I am only addressing the attacks. So many people think they know her so very well as to continually judge her motives and heart, things which only God knows about any of us. So what is concrete, but her writings themselves, and perhaps societal differences and views she addressed which are no longer the same today for whatever reasons. Such of course must be considered when addressing her writings and ideas.
Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: Amo on Sat Jun 22, 2019 - 10:29:29
Hi Amo, you are skirting the point, but we would expect that of you now wouldn't we?    The fact is that Ellen's "instructor" said that photos ARE idols.  Don't skirt the main fact of my opening statement.


"SDAs like to dismiss Ellen's writing concerning photographs as being the cost back then.  The fact is that Ellen's angel told her that photographs are IDOLS and money should not be used to buy those idols.   Set aside the cost and consider the fact that the angel called the pictures idols."

Do you have any of those idols in your home?   Just because they cost less today doesn't change the fact that they are idols.  But who pays any attention to the revered prophet?


How much time and money one is willing to spend upon any particular thing, is intricately connected to whether they are making an idol or not out of that particular thing or not. You do understand simple basic principles of idolatry Beam, do you not? You do know don't you, that idols are not just carved images or statues, do you not? So, how in your apparent great wisdom which has given you the ability to judge the motives and heart of EGW, do you determine what is idolatry, and what is not? Maybe the following links addressing a more modern form of what EGW was addressing, can shed some light.

https://www.gotquestions.org/selfie-culture.html

http://getyouranswersonline.com/onewebmedia/Present%20Day%20Idols%20%20-%20Selfies.pdf

http://www.jeremyawalker.com/uncategorized/201442is-the-selfie-a-form-of-idolatry-html/

https://biblereasons.com/idolatry/

http://www.edsteeleworship.com/2017/06/selfies-and-worship.html

https://guardianlv.com/2014/04/selfies-cause-narcissism-mental-illness-addiction-and-suicide/

The list goes on and on. Just type in selfies and idol worship in your search engine and observe. We've already been through this though. You are determined to prove EGW a false prophet. So be it. Condemnation or reward from God awaits you for the same. 

Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: beam on Sat Jun 22, 2019 - 19:23:14
How much time and money one is willing to spend upon any particular thing, is intricately connected to whether they are making an idol or not out of that particular thing or not. You do understand simple basic principles of idolatry Beam, do you not? You do know don't you, that idols are not just carved images or statues, do you not? So, how in your apparent great wisdom which has given you the ability to judge the motives and heart of EGW, do you determine what is idolatry, and what is not? Maybe the following links addressing a more modern form of what EGW was addressing, can shed some light.

[url]https://www.gotquestions.org/selfie-culture.html[/url]

[url]http://getyouranswersonline.com/onewebmedia/Present%20Day%20Idols%20%20-%20Selfies.pdf[/url]

[url]http://www.jeremyawalker.com/uncategorized/201442is-the-selfie-a-form-of-idolatry-html/[/url]


[url]http://www.edsteeleworship.com/2017/06/selfies-and-worship.html[/url]

[url]https://guardianlv.com/2014/04/selfies-cause-narcissism-mental-illness-addiction-and-suicide/[/url]

The list goes on and on. Just type in selfies and idol worship in your search engine and observe. We've already been through this though. You are determined to prove EGW a false prophet. So be it. Condemnation or reward from God awaits you for the same.
Amo, Amo, You will do anything to make the prophet a reality.  It was Ellen's instructor that called photographs Idols.  I merely quoted the words of the prophet.  Yes, many things can be idols, I agree with you.  In the case of photographs having them in ones' home would be having idols setting around.  if you really believe the prophet you will clear your home of all those idols.

I really do not have to judge the motives of Ellen.  It is as clear as the nose on my face that she was a farce and didn't heed most of what she tried to have her flock adhere.
Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: piecrust on Mon Jun 24, 2019 - 23:55:40
I don't know if she did. The general idea was not to waste to much time and money on self. Today's selfy society is a good example of where such can lead.

You obviously are not aware of what is freely available......pictures of ellen.
Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: Amo on Tue Jun 25, 2019 - 20:03:06
Amo, Amo, You will do anything to make the prophet a reality.  It was Ellen's instructor that called photographs Idols.  I merely quoted the words of the prophet.  Yes, many things can be idols, I agree with you.  In the case of photographs having them in ones' home would be having idols setting around.  if you really believe the prophet you will clear your home of all those idols.

I really do not have to judge the motives of Ellen.  It is as clear as the nose on my face that she was a farce and didn't heed most of what she tried to have her flock adhere.

Beam, Beam, You will do anything to make the prophet false. Remember, I'm only responding to your accusations, you are the one initiating all of this. I just don't find your accusations very impressive or enlightened.  Will you now deny that all the Christians associating selfies with idolatry today is based upon the same principle EGW was addressing in her day? Are they all evil false prophets? I won't clear my home of anything according to your warped perceptions and accusations.

Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: Amo on Tue Jun 25, 2019 - 20:04:35
You obviously are not aware of what is freely available......pictures of ellen.

Please do enlighten me, and provide links to the numerous photos EGW had taken of herself to decorate her house with.
Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: piecrust on Wed Jun 26, 2019 - 03:57:12
Please do enlighten me, and provide links to the numerous photos EGW had taken of herself to decorate her house with.

What she did with them I have no idea.  Some of those photos are in this thread.  Some of them graced her literature no doubt.  But they exist.  There are two gracing the Wikipedia entry about her.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellen_G._White

Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: beam on Thu Jun 27, 2019 - 08:29:03
Beam, Beam, You will do anything to make the prophet false. Remember, I'm only responding to your accusations, you are the one initiating all of this. I just don't find your accusations very impressive or enlightened.  Will you now deny that all the Christians associating selfies with idolatry today is based upon the same principle EGW was addressing in her day? Are they all evil false prophets? I won't clear my home of anything according to your warped perceptions and accusations.
Your denial and defiance just once again proves that Adventistspick and choose what they want to believe concerning the writings of Ellen White.

I think if you really took her writings seriously you would clear your house of all what her "instructor" called idols.  You blame me for bringing up a fact and belittle me by writing that my comments are accusations.  How could that be Amo?  I only pasted what Ellen wrote.  Take it or leave it.  You are the one who puts your eggs in her basket.  You are the one who lets her writings dictate many of the things you do and don't do.
Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: Amo on Sat Jun 29, 2019 - 12:04:19
What she did with them I have no idea.  Some of those photos are in this thread.  Some of them graced her literature no doubt.  But they exist.  There are two gracing the Wikipedia entry about her.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellen_G._White

I guess when you are one of the most proliferate writers of all time, and travel the world lecturing, a lot of people end up taking your picture. The question is, did she have photos taken of herself and hang them all over her house? This is what she had a problem with, the time and money connected to doing the same. Although, I'm sure she would have something to say about todays selfies society, and sending pictures of yourself to everyone out there as well.
Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: Amo on Sat Jun 29, 2019 - 12:34:32
Your denial and defiance just once again proves that Adventistspick and choose what they want to believe concerning the writings of Ellen White.

I think if you really took her writings seriously you would clear your house of all what her "instructor" called idols.  You blame me for bringing up a fact and belittle me by writing that my comments are accusations.  How could that be Amo?  I only pasted what Ellen wrote.  Take it or leave it.  You are the one who puts your eggs in her basket.  You are the one who lets her writings dictate many of the things you do and don't do.

My refutation of your false insinuations and accusations are just that. They mean nothing you suggest they mean simply because you have said so. Just as your false insinuations and accusations against EGW mean nothing you suggest but in your own mind. You simply consider yourself a better judge of her character and intent than others, who themselves disagree with you and consider their judgment better than yours. God will determine her true character and intent for all disputers of the same when He returns.

The love of self above God is most certainly the base of the sin problem altogether. When photographs first came out and were very costly, spending a great deal of time taking them and money purchasing them, could obviously be an indication of such sinful selfish tendency. Today, 150 years later, times are very different. Almost anyone can take photos at any time at very little to no cost with their phones. Nevertheless, even todays Christians and others have realized the sinful and negative impacts of our selfies society. Are you denying that love of self above God is the root of sin, and can be manifested in may ways, including spending a great deal of time and money of pictures of ones self? Is this your superior wisdom that you wish to share?

The principle shared by EGW was true then and still remains true today, obsession with self in any form including spending a great deal of time and money on taking and displaying photos of ones self, is sinful. Pictures most certainly can be made into idols. Do you deny this?
Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: piecrust on Sun Jun 30, 2019 - 00:51:20
I guess when you are one of the most proliferate writers of all time, and travel the world lecturing, a lot of people end up taking your picture. The question is, did she have photos taken of herself and hang them all over her house? This is what she had a problem with, the time and money connected to doing the same. Although, I'm sure she would have something to say about todays selfies society, and sending pictures of yourself to everyone out there as well.

You probably mean prolific.  But this means she is above the commandments she gave other people?  She SAT for photographs, she even SAT for at least one painting.  These were not snapshots, taking a photo back then was a production.

What she did with them was immaterial, she knew very well what she was doing.  Time and money....she spent both of photographs that she called idols.
Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: beam on Sun Jun 30, 2019 - 07:51:02
Amen piecrust.
Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: Amo on Sun Jun 30, 2019 - 10:44:53
You probably mean prolific.  But this means she is above the commandments she gave other people?  She SAT for photographs, she even SAT for at least one painting.  These were not snapshots, taking a photo back then was a production.

What she did with them was immaterial, she knew very well what she was doing.  Time and money....she spent both of photographs that she called idols.

Either or is just fine. Her writings were numerous, published rapidly, spread around the world, and translated into many different languages. They also became abundant and produced much fruit.

You and your buddy Beam are choosing to center in on photographs as the idol, instead of individuals making them idols, which is what EGW addressed. You do this because of your personal agenda to attack and malign her character. If she had a thing specifically for photographs perhaps you would have a point, but she applied the same principle to far more than just photos. You ignore this, or more over don't even know about it because you don't care, you are simply in attack mode and have no regard for what the person you are attacking was really trying to convey to those she was addressing. Observe the following and understand the principle or underlying spiritual application of what EGW was addressing, not just your prejudiced immediate thoughts as anti-EGW antagonists.

Quote
We Shall Not Serve Any Graven Images, February 20

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them. Exodus 20:4, 5.
Our Creator demands our supreme devotion, our first allegiance. Anything which tends to abate our love for God, or to interfere with the service due Him, becomes thereby an idol. With some their lands, their houses, their merchandise, are the idols. Business enterprises are prosecuted with zeal and energy, while the service of God is made a secondary consideration. Family worship is neglected, secret prayer forgotten. Many claim to deal justly with their fellow-men, and seem to feel that in so doing they discharge their whole duty. But it is not enough to keep the last six commandments of the Decalogue. We are to love the Lord our God with all the heart. Nothing short of obedience to every precept ... can satisfy the claims of the divine law.
There are many whose hearts have been so hardened by prosperity that they forget God, and forget the wants of their fellow-men. Professed Christians adorn themselves with jewelry, laces, costly apparel, while the Lord's poor suffer for the necessaries of life. Men and women who claim redemption through a Saviour's blood will squander the means intrusted to them for the saving of other souls, and then grudging dole out their offerings for religion, giving liberally only when it will bring honor to themselves. These are idolaters.51The Signs of the Times, January 26, 1882.
Anything that diverts the mind from God assumes the form of an idol, and that is why there is so little power in the church today.52Ellen G. White Manuscript 2, 1893.
The second commandment forbids the worship of the true God by images or similitudes.... The mind, turned away from the infinite perfection of Jehovah, would be attracted to the creature rather than to the Creator.53Patriarchs and Prophets, 306.
God is a searcher of the heart. He distinguishes between true heart-service and idolatry.54Ellen G. White Manuscript 126, 1901.



TESTIMONIES FOR THE CHURCH, VOL. 6, PAGE 450

Practice economy in your homes. By many, idols are cherished and worshiped. Put away your idols. Give up your selfish pleasures. Do not, I entreat you, absorb means in embellishing your houses, for it is God's money, and it will be required of you again. Parents, for Christ’s sake do not use the Lord's money in pleasing the fancies of your children. Do not teach them to seek after style and ostentation in order to gain influence in the world. Will this incline them to save the souls for whom Christ died? No; it will create envy, jealousy, and evil surmising. Your children will be led to compete with the show and extravagance of the world, and to spend the Lord's money for that which is not essential to health or happiness.

I've shared many modern day views of idolatry with you addressing the same principles addressed by EGW above. Now you see the principle EGW was applying to photos which she also applied to all things one might make of more import than God in their lives, thus creating an idol within their hearts. You will ignore this of course and continue your ranting and raving, bearing false witness after false witness.  So be it.

There is nothing new under the sun. There has always been open warfare between the false prophets and the true prophets of God. You are attacking a woman who many consider a prophetess of God who pointed all to salvation in Christ Jesus and the holy scriptures as the final authority on all issues. You claim to be doing the same in your attacks upon her. One of you is certainly a false prophet, God will sort such out shortly.

Photographs are not idols, until people make them idols. Just like anything else. You judge EGW had photos taken for her own glory or gratification above God, you will meet her soon enough before God, and receive your reward of condemnation accordingly. I'll see you there if not before, since I contend you are twisting her words
and judging her motives above and beyond what you are able. Unless you profess straight up to actually be a prophet of God to whom He has revealed these motives. I don't think that is what you are saying though, is it?

No idols exist in and of themselves, people make things idols by placing them above God, or straight up making them their God.
Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: beam on Sun Jun 30, 2019 - 22:53:02
Either or is just fine. Her writings were numerous, published rapidly, spread around the world, and translated into many different languages. They also became abundant and produced much fruit.

You and your buddy Beam are choosing to center in on photographs as the idol, instead of individuals making them idols, which is what EGW addressed. You do this because of your personal agenda to attack and malign her character. If she had a thing specifically for photographs perhaps you would have a point, but she applied the same principle to far more than just photos. You ignore this, or more over don't even know about it because you don't care, you are simply in attack mode and have no regard for what the person you are attacking was really trying to convey to those she was addressing. Observe the following and understand the principle or underlying spiritual application of what EGW was addressing, not just your prejudiced immediate thoughts as anti-EGW antagonists.

I've shared many modern day views of idolatry with you addressing the same principles addressed by EGW above. Now you see the principle EGW was applying to photos which she also applied to all things one might make of more import than God in their lives, thus creating an idol within their hearts. You will ignore this of course and continue your ranting and raving, bearing false witness after false witness.  So be it.

There is nothing new under the sun. There has always been open warfare between the false prophets and the true prophets of God. You are attacking a woman who many consider a prophetess of God who pointed all to salvation in Christ Jesus and the holy scriptures as the final authority on all issues. You claim to be doing the same in your attacks upon her. One of you is certainly a false prophet, God will sort such out shortly.

Photographs are not idols, until people make them idols. Just like anything else. You judge EGW had photos taken for her own glory or gratification above God, you will meet her soon enough before God, and receive your reward of condemnation accordingly. I'll see you there if not before, since I contend you are twisting her words
and judging her motives above and beyond what you are able. Unless you profess straight up to actually be a prophet of God to whom He has revealed these motives. I don't think that is what you are saying though, is it?

No idols exist in and of themselves, people make things idols by placing them above God, or straight up making them their God.
Well Amo I believe Ellen was on a rampage am sure you have justified having your photos setting around or hanging on the walls of your home and if I were a SDA I would have them too.  People don't idolize photographs.  I believe Ellen was on a rampage because the money wasn't coming in as the hierarchy expected and she used bicycles and photographs to chide the flock.  She made up the story and used her imaginary instructor as the one who indicated that photos are indeed idols.  You indicated that it was not the pictures that were idols, it was the people who possessed them.   Not so Amo.  The instructor was adamant that it was the photographs themselves.  She even said it was about the money that should have been given to the church.   Ellen was paid just like the preachers were.  Maybe she thought she wasn't going to get her pay.

You have justified having photos by twisting. the words of the instructor.    Then you tried to explain all of that to us.  Just like the many other flaws in her writings it is extremely had to cover for her.
Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: piecrust on Mon Jul 01, 2019 - 22:28:23
Either or is just fine. Her writings were numerous, published rapidly, spread around the world, and translated into many different languages. They also became abundant and produced much fruit.

You and your buddy Beam are choosing to center in on photographs as the idol, instead of individuals making them idols, which is what EGW addressed. You do this because of your personal agenda to attack and malign her character.


My agenda is to proclaim the Gospel, which you seem allergic to, and ellen definitely was.  Malign her character?  The character of a false prophet?  I don't need to.  She has done that herself.

Just because a thing is numerous doesn't make it right.
Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: Amo on Fri Jul 05, 2019 - 10:48:58
My agenda is to proclaim the Gospel, which you seem allergic to, and ellen definitely was.  Malign her character?  The character of a false prophet?  I don't need to.  She has done that herself.

Just because a thing is numerous doesn't make it right.

BALONEY! We are here discussing EGW because your buddy Beam brought her up yet again, and you came here to back up Beams accusations. Are your accusations against EGW the Gospel? If not, then apparently you are not just about proclaiming the gospel. Apart from which, a gospel which abolishes the commandments of God which Jesus came to establish, is a false gospel. Idol worship or not is part of the gospel, which is about bringing people back to the worship of the one and only true God instead of idols which are only the worship of self.

No, numerous does not make right, nor was that my point at all. My point is pretty simple. Famous people who write many books, pamphlets, articles, and travel around the globe lecturing end up having a lot of photos taken of them with or without their consent or desire. Nor is allowing someone to take photos during such endeavors the same at all as spending large amounts of time and money having photos taken of yourself and decorating your home or other places with them. Like it or not, EGW was and is famous still to this day, compared to most. This no doubt has a lot to do with why there are many pictures of her. Nevertheless you are free to condemn her as a hypocrite and false prophet for this if you wish, God will address and finalize the issue when He appears.

Again though, your claim to be about the gospel alone when you are here backing up your buddy Beam who started this thread, doesn't seem very accurate. We are only here because you and Beam continue to bring up EGW with your accusations against her. Your claim that I am immune to the gospel is another accusation that God will address when He appears. Perhaps you should stick to addressing doctrine, rather than things about other people you cannot possibly know or properly judge. Such is conducive to a greater possibility of bearing false witness against ones neighbor.

The following link is provided for you just to show you how very much EGW actually did have to say about the gospel.

https://text.egwwritings.org/search.php?lang=en&collection=2&section=all&QUERY=gospel&Search=Search

Please do take some time to look through the 14217 references found in her writings concerning the gospel at the search engine linked above.
Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: Amo on Fri Jul 05, 2019 - 11:10:18
Well Amo I believe Ellen was on a rampage am sure you have justified having your photos setting around or hanging on the walls of your home and if I were a SDA I would have them too.  People don't idolize photographs.  I believe Ellen was on a rampage because the money wasn't coming in as the hierarchy expected and she used bicycles and photographs to chide the flock.  She made up the story and used her imaginary instructor as the one who indicated that photos are indeed idols.  You indicated that it was not the pictures that were idols, it was the people who possessed them.   Not so Amo.  The instructor was adamant that it was the photographs themselves.  She even said it was about the money that should have been given to the church.   Ellen was paid just like the preachers were.  Maybe she thought she wasn't going to get her pay.

You have justified having photos by twisting. the words of the instructor.    Then you tried to explain all of that to us.  Just like the many other flaws in her writings it is extremely had to cover for her.

More BALONEY! No question about it though, as you travel deeper and deeper into your accusations against EGW you are either traveling toward great reward for your efforts against a false prophet, or insuring your place in the lake of fire for bearing continuous false witness against a true prophetess of God. Again, perhaps you should stick to proving her claims wrong, rather than attacking her character and accusing her of things you cannot possibly know for sure. This way you will have just been wrong in the end, and not guilty of bearing false witness against another which is a ticket straight to the lake of fire.

The following quote is from the link provided below. Perhaps you will find it of interest. Or perhaps you can find another accusation to make within it.

https://whiteestate.org/legacy/issues-faq-egw-html/#faq-section-a6


Quote
Ellen G. White's Financial Affairs

Was Ellen White a millionaire?
Didn't Ellen White contradict her own teachings by dying in debt?
If Ellen White's writings are inspired, why are her books copyrighted and sold?
Didn't Ellen White contradict her own counsel when she sometimes sent tithe funds directly to needy ministers?

Was Ellen White a millionaire?

More than once in her ministry, Ellen White was confronted by reports that she was accumulating great wealth because of her book royalties. Here is her direct response to one detractor, written in 1897 while she lived in Australia:

"You have made reports in reference to me being rich. How did you know I was? For about ten years I have been working on borrowed property. Should I sell all that I have in my possession, I would not have sufficient to pay my outstanding debts.

"Where have I invested this money? You well know where. I have been the bank from which to draw to carry forward the work in this country. . . .

"I have borrowed money to do the work which must be done. Not one shilling of the donations sent me, from the least sum to larger amounts, has been used for myself. Our good Sister Wessels made me a present of a silk dress, and made me promise I would not sell it. But I thought that had she placed in my hands the amount the dress was worth, it would have been used in the cause of God.

"I see debts on our meetinghouses and it hurts my soul. I cannot but feel distress over the matter. I have invested money in the Parramatta church, in the Prospect church, in the Napier church, in the Ormondville church, in the Gisborne church, and in the education of students. I have sent persons to America that they might be fitted to return and do work in this country. If this is the way to become rich, I think it would be well for others to try it.

"All the royalty on my foreign books sold in America is sacredly dedicated to God for the education of students, that they may be fitted for the ministry. Thousands of dollars have been thus expended. Is this the way to accumulate money? The old story that Canright and others have circulated, that I was worth thirty thousand dollars, all fiction. It has increased to thirty thousand pounds, by report, since I came to Australia.

"I do not know where it is. I am using up my means, just as fast as it comes in, to carry forward the work in this country. If I had thirty thousand pounds, I would not have sent to Africa for the loan of one thousand pounds on which I am paying interest. If I could, I would get a loan of another thousand pounds, so that we might be able to put up the main school building.

"I have not thirty thousand pounds. I only wish I had a million dollars. I would do as I did in Sydney. I would put men in the field to labor, defraying their expenses from my own funds. We need one hundred men where we now have one in the field" (Letter 98a, 1897).

Six years later, in a private letter dated October 19, 1903, Ellen White wrote, "I have done all I could to help the cause of God with my means. I am paying interest on twenty thousand dollars, all of which I have invested in the work of God. And I shall continue to do all in my power to help to forward His work" (Letter 218, 1903).

Didn't Ellen White contradict her own teachings by dying in debt?

Ellen White wisely warned against the dangers of indebtedness, but when she died she owed nearly $90,000, with assets appraised at a little more than $65,000. This left a deficit of more than $20,000. Did Ellen White handle her finances irresponsibly and in complete disregard to her own counsels? When all the facts of her business affairs are considered, it is clear that Ellen White did not violate the spirit and intent of the counsel she gave concerning freedom from debt.

It should be noted that Ellen White did not advocate an extreme position on debt--that under no circumstances should one make any moves unless the money is in hand. She recognized that opportunities present themselves where the appropriate response is to move forward in faith, even if it is necessary to "borrow money and pay interest" (Counsels on Stewardship, p. 278).

In her own experience, most of Ellen White's borrowing was incurred during the later years of her life when, realizing the shortness of her days, she did some of her heaviest work in preparing new books, both in English and in other languages. There were only two ways in which such expenses of book preparation could be met--either in profits from former publishing (i.e., royalties), or by borrowing against anticipated royalties. Because of Ellen White's past generosity in contributing funds toward the work of the church, she was left to rely upon future earnings (royalties) to liquidate her debt. Part of that generosity consisted in her declining to receive royalties for non-English editions, and donating the royalties of her most popular later works, Christ's Object Lessons (1900) and The Ministry of Healing (1905), for the support of specific church projects. In the years following her death the continued sales of her publications entirely met her obligations, as she had anticipated. For a fuller discussion of Ellen White's indebtedness, see "Mrs. White's Indebtedness."



Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: Amo on Fri Jul 05, 2019 - 11:13:26
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXwshKfg9-Y

Good sermon on idols and the second commandment. Anything can be made an idol if or when it is put above God in our lives.
Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: piecrust on Sat Jul 06, 2019 - 01:34:07
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXwshKfg9-Y

Good sermon on idols and the second commandment. Anything can be made an idol if or when it is put above God in our lives.

Well yes.  The sabbath and the law spring to mind.
Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: beam on Sat Jul 06, 2019 - 07:13:06
More BALONEY! No question about it though, as you travel deeper and deeper into your accusations against EGW you are either traveling toward great reward for your efforts against a false prophet, or insuring your place in the lake of fire for bearing continuous false witness against a true prophetess of God. Again, perhaps you should stick to proving her claims wrong, rather than attacking her character and accusing her of things you cannot possibly know for sure. This way you will have just been wrong in the end, and not guilty of bearing false witness against another which is a ticket straight to the lake of fire.

The following quote is from the link provided below. Perhaps you will find it of interest. Or perhaps you can find another accusation to make within it.

https://whiteestate.org/legacy/issues-faq-egw-html/#faq-section-a6
  Hi Amo, you can deny that the "instructor" said that photographs are idols just as you deny all of the other problematic issues we present.  You can call what I write "baloney" but that doesn't change facts.  You deny that scripture says what it does as in 2Cor3:7-11 but that doesn't change the fact that Paul wrote that the 10 commandments were done away.    Having gone through the fire of Adventism it is wonderful to know that Ellen White was not what she pretended to be.  I can look straight into your eyes and proclaim that I am saved.  I know that there is no such thing as the investigative judgment.   To think that the Savior of this World is sitting in a room deciding whether or not someone is worthy of salvation and has been doing that since 1844 is ludicrous.   Ellen's story about the plan of salvation being an afterthought is also ludicrous, but there you are with your big guns trying to make us believe all of that malarky is true.

Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: Amo on Sat Jul 06, 2019 - 11:16:33
Well yes.  The sabbath and the law spring to mind.

Anything does mean anything.
Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: Amo on Sat Jul 06, 2019 - 20:33:15
Beam -
Quote
Hi Amo, you can deny that the "instructor" said that photographs are idols just as you deny all of the other problematic issues we present.  You can call what I write "baloney" but that doesn't change facts.

Thank you for giving me permission to deny what I wish. However, I do not deny that photographs were called idols. I just understand that nothing is an idol until one makes it an idol, which apparently you do not. A carved statue is just that, a carved statue. If some one however, decides to idolize that statue and state it represents their chosen deity, it then becomes an idol to them. However, it still remains just a statue to others who have done no such thing. So it is with all idols. You simply refuse this truth, because it does not lend credence to your accusation against EGW. So be it.

Beam -
Quote
You deny that scripture says what it does as in 2Cor3:7-11 but that doesn't change the fact that Paul wrote that the 10 commandments were done away.

2 Cor 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart. 4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward: 5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God; 6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. 7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: 8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. 10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. 11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious. 12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: 13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: 14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. 15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. 16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

Since when is writings God’s law upon the hearts of Jesus’ followers and not just in stone, abolishing the law? What sense does that make? The letter of the law condemns and kills, leading us to Christ for salvation. The saved have the law fulfilled within through the Spirit. This is life not death. It establishes the law, not abolishes it. The condemnation of the law has been taken away and abolished for those in Christ, not the law itself. What does establishing the law in one’s heart by the Spirit have to do with abolishing the law?

Rom 8:1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

You do the same thing with Paul’s writings, that you do with EGW’s. You take one statement and make it what you want it to be, and then refuse all else written by them on the matter which contradicts what you have created. They will both condemn you in the judgment. It is the carnal mind that is not subject to the law of God and neither can be. Your false gospel claims the saved are not subject to God’s law and need not be. Paul’s gospel says the righteousness of God’s law is fulfilled within the believer by the Spirit, by faith. This most obviously establishes the law within the believer, not abolishes it. Your gospel is false and refuses all scripture which testifies of the establishment God’s law in and through our Savior and Lord Jesus Christ. So be it.

Mt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Beam -
Quote
Having gone through the fire of Adventism it is wonderful to know that Ellen White was not what she pretended to be.  I can look straight into your eyes and proclaim that I am saved.

Your words are apparently very convincing to yourself, they have not convinced me of anything, but your willingness to bring forth accusations and twist and mutilate the words and intentions of others. No one will ever be saved by proclaiming of themselves that they are saved, including you. Jesus Christ will pronounce your sentence when He returns, then you will stand justified or condemned like the rest of us. His word is truth, ours is not. From what I have seen, you do not believe much of His word.

Beam -
Quote
I know that there is no such thing as the investigative judgment.

You know nothing and are deceived. God absolutely will judge the entire world before He returns and our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will bring His reward with Him, just as scripture testifies.

Mt 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. 16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Beam -
Quote
To think that the Savior of this World is sitting in a room deciding whether or not someone is worthy of salvation and has been doing that since 1844 is ludicrous.

I have never believed Christ is sitting in a room since 1844. Not any room anything like we know or understand in any case. I believe scripture which states He is in the temple in heaven interceding for humanity, which has everything to do with our salvation or not by the way, and therefore by extension our judgment. Neither EGW or myself are confined to your narrow minded, judgmental, and erroneous claims and or accusations. These are the confines of your own mind and imagination, not mine or anyone else’s who does not take them on as their own.

Rom 8:31:What shall we then say to these things?If God be for us, who can be against us? 32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. 34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Heb 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God. 20 And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest: 21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:) 22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament. 23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death: 24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. 25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Heb 8:1Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; 2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer. 4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law: 5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount. 6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is the High Priest of this new covenant era. He intercedes for us in the true “tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man”. That intercession for us or not, has everything to do with one’s eternal salvation or not, and therefore also the judgement of every individual in regards to the same. Any and all who abandon that intercession or are cut off from it, are lost. God alone judges who will and who will not be saved by that intercession.

Quote
Ellen’s story about the plan of salvation being an afterthought is also ludicrous, but there you are with your big guns trying to make us believe all of that malarky is true.

To the contrary, you are a liar. It is as I have said. You have taken what she wrote in one place, twisted it into what you want it to have said, and ignore or reject anything else she has said which contradicts your twisted lying application of her words. Unless you repent, you stand a liar bearing false witness before God and humanity. The following quotes from EGW directly contradict your false accusations, you simply choose to ignore and reject them. This, just as you ignore and reject scripture which contradicts your false gospel. Emphasis in the following quotes is mine.

Quote
The plan for our redemption was not an afterthought, a plan formulated after the fall of Adam. It was a revelation of “the mystery which hath been kept in silence through times eternal.” Romans 16:25, R.V. It was an unfolding of the principles that from eternal ages have been the foundation of God's throne.... God did not ordain that sin should exist, but He foresaw its existence, and made provision to meet the terrible emergency.(The Desire of Ages, 22.)


Compassion for the Unsaved—But how few of us regard the salvation of sinners in the light in which it is viewed by the heavenly universe,—as a plan devised from eternity in the mind of God! How few of us are heart to heart with the Redeemer in this solemn, closing work! There is scarcely a tithe of the compassion that there should be for souls unsaved. There are so many to be warned, and yet how few sympathize with God sufficiently to be anything or nothing if only they can see souls won to Christ!(Gospel Workers, 116 (1915))

The words that Christ uttered were not mere sentiment or opinion. They were pure, unadulterated truth. Suppositions and fables never passed His lips. False theories He met as dangerous evils. “No lie is of the truth,” He declared. [1 John 2:21.] He bore a message that unfolded truth of the highest order. “What is the chaff to the wheat,” He said when He heard the words of prevarication and deception. [Jeremiah 23:28.] Science was not the theme upon which Christ dwelt. But gospel truth—the truth which had been framed from eternity—entered into His every purpose. His life was one of pure, holy, disinterested benevolence—a life unmarred by the slightest taint of selfishness.(Ms 140, 1903)

Chapter 10—The Science of Salvation the First of Sciences

The plan of salvation had its place in the counsels of the Infinite from all eternity. The gospel is the revelation of God's love to men, and means everything that is essential to the happiness and well-being of humanity. The work of God in the earth is of immeasurable importance, and it is Satan's special object to crowd it out of sight and mind, that he may make his specious devices effectual in the destruction of those for whom Christ died. It is his purpose to cause the discoveries of men to be exalted above the wisdom of God. When the mind is engrossed with the conceptions and theories of men to the exclusion of the wisdom of God, it is stamped with idolatry. Science, falsely so-called, has been exalted above God, nature above its Maker, and how can God look upon such wisdom?(CHRISTIAN EDUCATION, PAGE 83)


Before Creation, May 1

The terms of this oneness between God and man in the great covenant of redemption were arranged with Christ from all eternity. The covenant of grace was revealed to the patriarchs. The covenant made with Abraham ... was a covenant confirmed by God in Christ, the very same gospel which is preached to us.... Paul speaks of the gospel, the preaching of Jesus Christ, as “the revelation of the mystery, which hath been kept in silence through times eternal, but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, is made known unto all the nations unto obedience of faith” (Romans 16:25, 26, R.V.) (GOD’S AMAZING GRACE, PAGE 129)

August 24, 1891
Christ our Hope

The covenant of grace is not a new truth, for it existed in the mind of God from all eternity. This is why it is called the everlasting covenant. The plan of redemption was not conceived after the fall of man to cure the dreadful evil; the apostle Paul speaks of the gospel, the preaching of Jesus Christ, as “the revelation of the mystery, which hath been kept in silence through times eternal, but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, is made known unto all the nations unto obedience of faith.” (THE SIGNS OF THE TIMES)


The keenest human discernment cannot understand the length and breadth and depth and height of the plan which reaches from everlasting to everlasting—a depth which reaches to the lowest state of human degradation and misery, a height that reaches to the throne of Jehovah. Those who looked upon the pallid face of the Son of God could have no just conceptions of his sufferings. As every divine and human aid failed, and the noble Sufferer stood alone, the terror of darkness and despair gathered about his soul. When Christ cried out, “My God, my God why hast thou forsaken me?” his divinity did not come to his aid to help him see that his case was perfectly free. Not a ray of brightness illuminated that dying struggle. Not a pang of the death sentence was spared the Son of God. The word of the Lord was, “The soul that sinneth, it shall die.” [Ezekiel 18:4.] The sentence of death which God had pronounced against every transgressor of his law, must be executed against the Son of God.(Ms 205,1899)


Before Sin Arose, God Had a Plan

God and Christ knew from the beginning, of the apostasy of Satan and of the fall of Adam through the deceptive power of the apostate. The plan of salvation was designed to redeem the fallen race, to give them another trial. Christ was appointed to the office of Mediator from the creation of God, set up from everlasting to be our substitute and surety.(Selected Messages 1:250)

Known unto God are all His works, and from eternal ages the covenant of grace (unmerited favor) existed in the mind of God. It is called the everlasting covenant; for the plan of salvation was not conceived after the fall of man, but it was that which was “kept in silence through times eternal, but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, is made known unto all the nations unto obedience of faith.” Romans 16:25, 26, A.R.V.(The Signs of the Times, December 15, 1914.)

Rev 21:6  And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: beam on Sat Jul 06, 2019 - 21:17:19
Hi Amo, while you are finding all the places Ellen did get it correct about the plan of Salvation I thought you might want to mull this one over in your mind.  You have accused me of a lot of bad things Amo.  I am wondering what you will accuse me of for posting the following?  You really scraped the bottom when you called me a liar.  Is that how Adventism treaches their flocks to treat others? 


Ellen on the plan of salvation after the fall of man.


That was the plan of salvation after the fall of man Amo.  In this account the accompanying angel was right there instructing her.  Now lets be fair Amo, which of her accounts of the plan should one believe.  This account has an angel from Heaven giving her the "wisdom" to write the account.
Ellen's account of the plan of salvation formulated after the fall of man: Early Writings pages 149-153
Sorrow filled heaven, as it was realized that man was lost, and that world which God had created was to be filled with mortals doomed to misery, sickness, and death, and there was no way of escape for the offender. The whole family of Adam must die. I saw the lovely Jesus and beheld an expression of sympathy and sorrow upon His countenance. Soon I saw Him approach the exceeding bright light which enshrouded the Father. Said my accompanying angel, He is in close converse with His Father. The anxiety of the angels seemed to be intense while Jesus was communing with His Father. Three times He was shut in by the glorious light about the Father, and the third time He came from the Father, His person could be seen. His countenance was calm, free from all perplexity and doubt, and shone with benevolence and loveliness, such as words cannot express. He then made known to the angelic host that a way of escape had been made for lost man. He told them that He had been pleading with His Father, and had offered to give His life a ransom, to take the sentence of death upon Himself, that through Him man might find pardon; that through the merits of His blood, and obedience to the law of God, they could have the favor of God, and be brought into the beautiful garden, and eat of the fruit of the tree of life.

At first the angels could not rejoice; for their Commander concealed nothing from them, but opened
150
before them the plan of salvation. Jesus told them that He would stand between the wrath of His Father and guilty man, that He would bear iniquity and scorn, and but few would receive Him as the Son of God. Nearly all would hate and reject Him. He would leave all His glory in heaven, appear upon earth as a man, humble Himself as a man, become acquainted by His own experience with the various temptations with which man would be beset, that He might know how to succor those who should be tempted; and that finally, after His mission as a teacher would be accomplished, He would be delivered into the hands of men, and endure almost every cruelty and suffering that Satan and his angels could inspire wicked men to inflict; that He would die the cruelest of deaths, hung up between the heavens and the earth as a guilty sinner; that He would suffer dreadful hours of agony, which even angels could not look upon, but would veil their faces from the sight. Not merely agony of body would He suffer, but mental agony, that with which bodily suffering could in no wise be compared. The weight of the sins of the whole world would be upon Him. He told them He would die and rise again the third day, and would ascend to His Father to intercede for wayward, guilty man.
[/size]
[/size]The angels prostrated themselves before Him. They offered their lives. Jesus said to them that He would by His death save many, that the life of an angel could not pay the debt. His life alone could be accepted of His Father as a ransom for man. Jesus also told them that they would have a part to act, to be with Him and at different times strengthen Him; that He would take man's fallen nature, and His strength would not be even equal with theirs; that they would be witnesses of His humiliation and great sufferings; and that as they would witness His sufferings, and the
[/size] 151
[/size] hatred of men toward Him, they would be stirred with the deepest emotion, and through their love for Him would wish to rescue and deliver Him from His murderers; but that they must not interfere to prevent anything they should behold; and that they should act a part in His resurrection; that the plan of salvation was devised, and His Father had accepted the plan.[/color]
[/size]
[/size]With a holy sadness Jesus comforted and cheered the angels and informed them that hereafter those whom He should redeem would be with Him, and that by His death He should ransom many and destroy him who had the power of death. And His Father would give Him the kingdom and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, and He would possess it forever and ever. Satan and sinners would be destroyed, nevermore to disturb heaven or the purified new earth. Jesus bade the heavenly host be reconciled to the plan that His Father had accepted and rejoice that through His death fallen man could again be exalted to obtain favor with God and enjoy heaven.
[/size]
[/size]Then joy, inexpressible joy, filled heaven. And the heavenly host sang a song of praise and adoration. They touched their harps and sang a note higher than they had done before, for the great mercy and condescension of God in yielding up His dearly Beloved to die for a race of rebels. Praise and adoration were poured forth for the self-denial and sacrifice of Jesus; that He would consent to leave the bosom of His Father, and choose a life of suffering and anguish, and die an ignominious death to give life to others.
[/size]
[/size]Said the angel, "Think ye that the Father yielded up His dearly beloved Son without a struggle? No, no. It was even a struggle with the God of heaven, whether to let guilty man perish, or to give His beloved Son to die for Him." Angels were so interested for man's
[/size] 152
[/size] salvation that there could be found among them those who would yield their glory and give their life for perishing man, "But," said my accompanying angel, "that would avail nothing. The transgression was so great that an angel's life would not pay the debt. Nothing but the death and intercessions of His son would pay the debt and save lost man from hopeless sorrow and misery."  .......[/color]
[/size]
I am sure that those who are reading our posts will be waiting for how you will escape this one.[/font]

Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: Amo on Sun Jul 07, 2019 - 11:28:41
Hi Amo, while you are finding all the places Ellen did get it correct about the plan of Salvation I thought you might want to mull this one over in your mind.  You have accused me of a lot of bad things Amo.  I am wondering what you will accuse me of for posting the following?  You really scraped the bottom when you called me a liar.  Is that how Adventism treaches their flocks to treat others? 


Ellen on the plan of salvation after the fall of man.


That was the plan of salvation after the fall of man Amo.  In this account the accompanying angel was right there instructing her.  Now lets be fair Amo, which of her accounts of the plan should one believe.  This account has an angel from Heaven giving her the "wisdom" to write the account.
Ellen's account of the plan of salvation formulated after the fall of man: Early Writings pages 149-153
Sorrow filled heaven, as it was realized that man was lost, and that world which God had created was to be filled with mortals doomed to misery, sickness, and death, and there was no way of escape for the offender. The whole family of Adam must die. I saw the lovely Jesus and beheld an expression of sympathy and sorrow upon His countenance. Soon I saw Him approach the exceeding bright light which enshrouded the Father. Said my accompanying angel, He is in close converse with His Father. The anxiety of the angels seemed to be intense while Jesus was communing with His Father. Three times He was shut in by the glorious light about the Father, and the third time He came from the Father, His person could be seen. His countenance was calm, free from all perplexity and doubt, and shone with benevolence and loveliness, such as words cannot express. He then made known to the angelic host that a way of escape had been made for lost man. He told them that He had been pleading with His Father, and had offered to give His life a ransom, to take the sentence of death upon Himself, that through Him man might find pardon; that through the merits of His blood, and obedience to the law of God, they could have the favor of God, and be brought into the beautiful garden, and eat of the fruit of the tree of life.

At first the angels could not rejoice; for their Commander concealed nothing from them, but opened
150
before them the plan of salvation. Jesus told them that He would stand between the wrath of His Father and guilty man, that He would bear iniquity and scorn, and but few would receive Him as the Son of God. Nearly all would hate and reject Him. He would leave all His glory in heaven, appear upon earth as a man, humble Himself as a man, become acquainted by His own experience with the various temptations with which man would be beset, that He might know how to succor those who should be tempted; and that finally, after His mission as a teacher would be accomplished, He would be delivered into the hands of men, and endure almost every cruelty and suffering that Satan and his angels could inspire wicked men to inflict; that He would die the cruelest of deaths, hung up between the heavens and the earth as a guilty sinner; that He would suffer dreadful hours of agony, which even angels could not look upon, but would veil their faces from the sight. Not merely agony of body would He suffer, but mental agony, that with which bodily suffering could in no wise be compared. The weight of the sins of the whole world would be upon Him. He told them He would die and rise again the third day, and would ascend to His Father to intercede for wayward, guilty man.
[/size]
[/size]The angels prostrated themselves before Him. They offered their lives. Jesus said to them that He would by His death save many, that the life of an angel could not pay the debt. His life alone could be accepted of His Father as a ransom for man. Jesus also told them that they would have a part to act, to be with Him and at different times strengthen Him; that He would take man's fallen nature, and His strength would not be even equal with theirs; that they would be witnesses of His humiliation and great sufferings; and that as they would witness His sufferings, and the
[/size] 151
[/size] hatred of men toward Him, they would be stirred with the deepest emotion, and through their love for Him would wish to rescue and deliver Him from His murderers; but that they must not interfere to prevent anything they should behold; and that they should act a part in His resurrection; that the plan of salvation was devised, and His Father had accepted the plan.[/color]
[/size]
[/size]With a holy sadness Jesus comforted and cheered the angels and informed them that hereafter those whom He should redeem would be with Him, and that by His death He should ransom many and destroy him who had the power of death. And His Father would give Him the kingdom and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, and He would possess it forever and ever. Satan and sinners would be destroyed, nevermore to disturb heaven or the purified new earth. Jesus bade the heavenly host be reconciled to the plan that His Father had accepted and rejoice that through His death fallen man could again be exalted to obtain favor with God and enjoy heaven.
[/size]
[/size]Then joy, inexpressible joy, filled heaven. And the heavenly host sang a song of praise and adoration. They touched their harps and sang a note higher than they had done before, for the great mercy and condescension of God in yielding up His dearly Beloved to die for a race of rebels. Praise and adoration were poured forth for the self-denial and sacrifice of Jesus; that He would consent to leave the bosom of His Father, and choose a life of suffering and anguish, and die an ignominious death to give life to others.
[/size]
[/size]Said the angel, "Think ye that the Father yielded up His dearly beloved Son without a struggle? No, no. It was even a struggle with the God of heaven, whether to let guilty man perish, or to give His beloved Son to die for Him." Angels were so interested for man's
[/size] 152
[/size] salvation that there could be found among them those who would yield their glory and give their life for perishing man, "But," said my accompanying angel, "that would avail nothing. The transgression was so great that an angel's life would not pay the debt. Nothing but the death and intercessions of His son would pay the debt and save lost man from hopeless sorrow and misery."  .......[/color]
[/size]
I am sure that those who are reading our posts will be waiting for how you will escape this one.[/font]


You are a liar, who thinks they know what someone else believed better than they did and expressed. Latching on to written words which serve your own twisted purpose of lying accusations, and ignoring and rejecting all else spoken upon the same subject to the contrary. As though you or anyone else could cover every angle of any issue in just a few paragraphs of writing. So you attack that written in a few paragraphs and reject all else written which expounds upon the same because it contradicts your false lying accusations concerning those few paragraphs. You are of course free to continue your twisted lying rants. At your own peril I might add.
Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: beam on Sun Jul 07, 2019 - 13:43:23
Wow!!! you true nature has reared its ugly head.  I quote the supposed prophet and you go off on a rage.  Your going off because I introduced the truth of what she wrote?    May I remind you that I didn't make all that up, I merely copied and pasted the words she wrote.   Notice that her angel was there telling her those things

Is her account true?  Was the plan of salvation an afterthought?   I am convinced it was all falsehood.
Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: Amo on Fri Jul 12, 2019 - 10:37:28
Wow!!! you true nature has reared its ugly head.  I quote the supposed prophet and you go off on a rage.  Your going off because I introduced the truth of what she wrote?    May I remind you that I didn't make all that up, I merely copied and pasted the words she wrote.   Notice that her angel was there telling her those things

Is her account true?  Was the plan of salvation an afterthought?   I am convinced it was all falsehood.

You are of course free to be convinced of whatever you wish, and make what ever twisted accusations you wish, as is obvious. Yes, my true nature includes allowing others to speak and expound upon what they actually believe in more than just one place or article or book. Your nature is to take this or that statement from others and make it what you want apart from or in contradiction to their own testimony elsewhere. To me, you are the falsehood, the liar.

We have been through this before, but you are a broken record, so here we are again. As already addressed in prior posts regarding this issue, actual events transpiring in relation to the creation, fall, and salvation of humanity in heaven and on earth, does not equal violation of God's foreknowledge. If nothing was ever supposed to happen if or when God knew it was coming, then nothing would ever happen, or even be. We actually did fall, God actually did implement the plan of salvation, Christ actually did die for us, He actually is our High Priest interceding for us now before the Father, the gospel actually has and continues to be given to the world that they might be saved, biblical prophecy actually has and continues to be fulfilled as history unfolds and is actually happening, Christ will actually return bringing His reward with Him, and so on, and so on. God knew all of this was going to happen ions ago, or from the beginning. The fact that it has been and is happening in no way shape or form means it is not real, or false because some how just because it actually happens, God therefore didn't know about it. This is your problem, your brain fart. Not God's or anyone else's. God knows the beginning from the end, not His creations. They continually learn and come to understand God better through His interactions with them as those living His foreknowledge not sharing it.

We learn through what we actually experience in this life God has given us. Therefore did God create us to actually experience what He has always known. It is all for His creation. He doesn't need to know anything. We only know what He has told us and what we experience through Him.
Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: current occupant2 on Fri Jul 12, 2019 - 13:17:10
You are of course free to be convinced of whatever you wish, and make what ever twisted accusations you wish, as is obvious. Yes, my true nature includes allowing others to speak and expound upon what they actually believe in more than just one place or article or book. Your nature is to take this or that statement from others and make it what you want apart from or in contradiction to their own testimony elsewhere. To me, you are the falsehood, the liar.

We have been through this before, but you are a broken record, so here we are again. As already addressed in prior posts regarding this issue, actual events transpiring in relation to the creation, fall, and salvation of humanity in heaven and on earth, does not equal violation of God's foreknowledge. If nothing was ever supposed to happen if or when God knew it was coming, then nothing would ever happen, or even be. We actually did fall, God actually did implement the plan of salvation, Christ actually did die for us, He actually is our High Priest interceding for us now before the Father, the gospel actually has and continues to be given to the world that they might be saved, biblical prophecy actually has and continues to be fulfilled as history unfolds and is actually happening, Christ will actually return bringing His reward with Him, and so on, and so on. God knew all of this was going to happen ions ago, or from the beginning. The fact that it has been and is happening in no way shape or form means it is not real, or false because some how just because it actually happens, God therefore didn't know about it. This is your problem, your brain fart. Not God's or anyone else's. God knows the beginning from the end, not His creations. They continually learn and come to understand God better through His interactions with them as those living His foreknowledge not sharing it.

We learn through what we actually experience in this life God has given us. Therefore did God create us to actually experience what He has always known. It is all for His creation. He doesn't need to know anything. We only know what He has told us and what we experience through Him.

Why do you continue to create these rabbit trails, red herrings and straw man arguments when Ellen was clearly told by here angel/spirit guide that PHOTOGRAPHS ARE IDOLS. 
Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: seekingHiswisdom on Fri Jul 12, 2019 - 17:04:49
Why do you continue to create these rabbit trails, red herrings and straw man arguments when Ellen was clearly told by here angel/spirit guide that PHOTOGRAPHS ARE IDOLS.

Then why did she partake of such?
Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: beam on Fri Jul 12, 2019 - 20:25:49
Hi Amo,  So, I am a liar and my post falsehood.  You judge me for copy and pasting a direct excerpt from the hand of the prophet?   I don't stoop so low as to label any other person who posts hostel remarks, so I won't begin with you.   Forgive me Lord for my thoughts.

Your kind of remarks comes from those who are backed into a corner and have nothing to add to the debate, so you revert to personal attack.  It is never too late to try to be nice to others.
Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: Amo on Sun Jul 14, 2019 - 13:54:10
Why do you continue to create these rabbit trails, red herrings and straw man arguments when Ellen was clearly told by here angel/spirit guide that PHOTOGRAPHS ARE IDOLS.

Why don't you you pay more attention to who is saying what? Your buddy Beam brought up the photographs are idols rabbit trail, and all the others on this thread. I am just addressing those rabbit trails.
Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: Amo on Sun Jul 14, 2019 - 13:58:39
Hi Amo,  So, I am a liar and my post falsehood.  You judge me for copy and pasting a direct excerpt from the hand of the prophet?   I don't stoop so low as to label any other person who posts hostel remarks, so I won't begin with you.   Forgive me Lord for my thoughts.

Your kind of remarks comes from those who are backed into a corner and have nothing to add to the debate, so you revert to personal attack.  It is never too late to try to be nice to others.

More twisted baloney! She wrote what you quoted, she also wrote what I quoted. You reject her testimony I quoted, and pretend it does not exist, so you can maintain your false accusations concerning what she believed. This is what I judge a lie. Nevertheless, you will no doubt continue to twist my and all other words that don't support your accusations. So be it.
Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: beam on Mon Jul 15, 2019 - 07:01:35
More twisted baloney! She wrote what you quoted, she also wrote what I quoted. You reject her testimony I quoted, and pretend it does not exist, so you can maintain your false accusations concerning what she believed. This is what I judge a lie. Nevertheless, you will no doubt continue to twist my and all other words that don't support your accusations. So be it.
Finally you agree she wrote what I quoted.   Tell me your thoughts on why she would write something that is not true and even include a supposed angel that came from God in Heaven?   Would a true prophet ever deceive people into believing a blatant lie?  Yet you still defend her to the hilt, why?   You can't help but see she wrote something that was not true.  She made another statement that Isn't true and paraphrasing she wrote that not one word that I write are my own thoughts.  I don't have time to look up where and when she wrote that.  Well, certainly her story about the plan of salvation was not the truth, so what inspired her to write such a lie?  One thing comes to mind, satan.
Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: seekingHiswisdom on Mon Jul 15, 2019 - 11:21:29
Finally you agree she wrote what I quoted.   Tell me your thoughts on why she would write something that is not true and even include a supposed angel that came from God in Heaven?   Would a true prophet ever deceive people into believing a blatant lie?  Yet you still defend her to the hilt, why?   You can't help but see she wrote something that was not true.  She made another statement that Isn't true and paraphrasing she wrote that not one word that I write are my own thoughts.  I don't have time to look up where and when she wrote that.  Well, certainly her story about the plan of salvation was not the truth, so what inspired her to write such a lie?  One thing comes to mind, satan.

supposed angel: I see as a problem as there is no proof.

 so what inspired her to write such a lie?

The exact same thing that inspired Joseph Smith to make the "unwitnessed" claims he made that started his religion.

Satan?  Possibly
Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: piecrust on Mon Jul 15, 2019 - 22:35:58
More twisted baloney! She wrote what you quoted, she also wrote what I quoted. You reject her testimony I quoted, and pretend it does not exist, so you can maintain your false accusations concerning what she believed. This is what I judge a lie. Nevertheless, you will no doubt continue to twist my and all other words that don't support your accusations. So be it.

why do you accept the words of a false profit?
Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: Amo on Sat Jul 20, 2019 - 12:41:56
Finally you agree she wrote what I quoted.   Tell me your thoughts on why she would write something that is not true and even include a supposed angel that came from God in Heaven?   Would a true prophet ever deceive people into believing a blatant lie?  Yet you still defend her to the hilt, why?   You can't help but see she wrote something that was not true.  She made another statement that Isn't true and paraphrasing she wrote that not one word that I write are my own thoughts.  I don't have time to look up where and when she wrote that.  Well, certainly her story about the plan of salvation was not the truth, so what inspired her to write such a lie?  One thing comes to mind, satan.

More twisted lies, misdirection, and misinformation. You even begin with a false pretense, I never denied she wrote what you quoted. I only rightly accused you of doing what you did, are doing, and continually do, twist the words of others to your own ends and eventual destruction. Those professing to be God's people who put more time and money into photographs or anything else above God Himself and their service to Him, are worshiping the idol they have created. This is the truth, and you are a lair for rejecting this truth. When humanity meets God face to face, we will clearly and concisely understand this truth. Those who have not put Him first, will end along with all that was also put before Him.

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Rev 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: 21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

This world is filled with the idols humans raise above God in their every day lives. When photographs first came out and were very time consuming and expensive, they most certainly could have become idols of those who would put to much of the same into them, just as anything else can be likewise. Are photographs the works of God's hands, or of humanities? Spending to much time, money, and effort upon the works of fallen humanity over and above works of God's design and will is and always will be a form of idolatry. This is what EGW was addressing, which you deny. You say she was a false prophet for addressing such, I say you are a false prophet for twisting her words and warnings to your own ends. All liars will burn in the lake of fire. At least one of us and or EGW will burn there, if not both or all of us. So be it. God's judgment and will be done.
Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: Amo on Sat Jul 20, 2019 - 12:42:44
why do you accept the words of a false profit?

I don't, which is why I reject your false testimony.
Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: Amo on Sat Jul 20, 2019 - 12:46:19
supposed angel: I see as a problem as there is no proof.

 so what inspired her to write such a lie?

The exact same thing that inspired Joseph Smith to make the "unwitnessed" claims he made that started his religion.

Satan?  Possibly

So, all saints who have ever seen and or shared about seeing angles or testimony given to them from angels is a lie? Therefore scripture by extension concerning the same as well? Perhaps you should expound. There are angels, and many people have seen them.
Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: seekingHiswisdom on Sat Jul 20, 2019 - 20:47:34
So, all saints who have ever seen and or shared about seeing angles or testimony given to them from angels is a lie? Therefore scripture by extension concerning the same as well? Perhaps you should expound. There are angels, and many people have seen them.

Yes, there are many people who have seen angels. Would it surprise you to know that I believe I ( and my mother) did once?

I did not say, nor do I mean that all  who have ever seen and or shared about seeing angles or testimony given to them from angels is a lie.

What I find troubling are those who have their one on one times with angels who are "instructed" in certain ways or about certain things that first have not been able to be supported in the bible.

Example... What Ellen said about photographs and idolatry. As conveyed by her angel

Plus these are troubling to me:

An Analysis of the Most Shocking and Embarrassing Statements of Ellen G. White
 
By D. Anderson

Amalgamation - A Denominational Embarrassment -- A statement appearing in 1864 indicates that "certain races of men" are a result of the "amalgamation of man and beast." What is amalgamation? Which races are the product of amalgamation? Why was this statement removed from later publications of this book? Widely recognized as the most embarrassing statement penned by Sister White!

Those Tall People of Jupiter -- In her infamous "solar system" vision Mrs. White not only saw Jupiter as having only four moons, but she also saw it inhabited by "a tall, majestic people, so unlike the inhabitants of earth." Is there evidence of life on Jupiter?

Embarrassing Failed Prophecies -- Over and over again, Mrs. White made specific predications about the return of Christ. Examine these prophecies for yourself.

https://www.searchingthescriptures.net/main_pages/answering_cults/seventh_day_adventism/analysis_whites_embarrassing_statements.htm


Example...  Mormon women are not allowed to wear sleeveless dresses. Sleeves should fully cover the shoulder and the upper portion of the arm, including the underarm andshirts with cap sleeves should not be worn alone. But they are allowed to do photographs.

And

What Joseph Smith said about the angel Morani who convinced him that he was a prophet and he set about to interpret those golden plates. He put his own authority over the authority of Scripture. He added his own revelation to the Bible’s revelation and took it upon himself to identify and correct what he claimed were errors in Scripture.

He believed that the Bible was corrupt and insufficient and for that reason both took away from, and added to, God’s written revelation.

He also claimed that his own revelations from God were the only access point to the true gospel that had apparently been lost. Mormon historian Richard Bushman says the “signal feature” of Smith’s life was “his sense of being guided by revelation.” He placed himself above all previous revelations and interpretations of the Bible—even those of Christ himself.
https://www.challies.com/articles/the-false-teachers-joseph-smith/

Just two examples of things that are so far removed from the mainstream Christianity that is debated here on a daily basis....

There are others but these two have formed quite a religious following each quite different then the other.

AND THERE IS NO WAY TO PROVE EITHER WAS RIGHT OR WRONG.

But would you not think that somewhere along the way there would be similarities?

Those who base only on the bible have a hard copy, hold in your hand textbook.

And let us not dismiss too casually those who once in a while come to GC claiming to be in touch or having been given guidance
from God, or and angel, or whatever. For there could be one who is the next Ellen White, Joseph Smith, or even Marshall Applewhite or David Koresh.

We always manage to chase them away....

Would Ellen White or Joseph Smith not also have been chased away by GC members?

If you are comfortable with her and her teachings. Fine. Just know that her visitations from that angel were not different then those that other have had.... there just is going off in different directions.

Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: piecrust on Sun Jul 21, 2019 - 02:09:19
I don't, which is why I reject your false testimony.

But you do.  You accept the words of ellen as being equal to that of scripture.  So why do you?
Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: beam on Sun Jul 21, 2019 - 08:06:02
More twisted lies, misdirection, and misinformation. You even begin with a false pretense, I never denied she wrote what you quoted.
Come on Amo, you have skirted the issue from the beginning.  You still will not admit she wrote that the plan of salvation came after the fall of man.  All you do and have done is to try to defame me for bringing up the real truth.   Please tell all the lurkers where I have lied.   Copying and pasting her exact words on the subject is not lying now, is it?

Quote
I only rightly accused you of doing what you did, are doing, and continually do, twist the words of others to your own ends and eventual destruction.
Accusing me and not telling me where and how certainly is not "rightly" now, is it?


Quote
Those professing to be God's people who put more time and money into photographs or anything else above God Himself and their service to Him, are worshiping the idol they have created.
Why cannot you admit that Ellen wrote that her "instructor" told her that photographs are idols period?  Not because they were very costly, but because making pictures of oneself is creating an idol.


Quote
This is the truth, and you are a lair for rejecting this truth.

When backed up against a wall all you do is spew hatred and a lie.  I never ever wrote anything about having too much of anything would or would not be an idol.  Certainly, photographs could be idols no matter what they cost.  Clothes, homes, cars, money or any other commodity could become idols.   


Quote
When humanity meets God face to face, we will clearly and concisely understand this truth. Those who have not put Him first, will end along with all that was also put before Him.
Where do you stand when you write falsehood and write defamation and accusation?



Quote
This world is filled with the idols humans raise above God in their every day lives. When photographs first came out and were very time consuming and expensive, they most certainly could have become idols of those who would put to much of the same into them, just as anything else can be likewise. Are photographs the works of God's hands, or of humanities? Spending to much time, money, and effort upon the works of fallen humanity over and above works of God's design and will is and always will be a form of idolatry. This is what EGW was addressing, which you deny. You say she was a false prophet for addressing such, I say you are a false prophet for twisting her words and warnings to your own ends. All liars will burn in the lake of fire. At least one of us and or EGW will burn there, if not both or all of us. So be it. God's judgment and will be done.
There you go trying to defend the false prophet again.  First, she wrote that the plan of salvation came after the fall of man and then she finally wrote that the plan was before.  She never denied she was wrong about the first writing.   What is such a blatant lie and damning to her is that she wrote that it was her instructor from Heaven who gave her all that information.    How can you deny that what I wrote is not the truth?  How can you in your right mind call me a liar when the evidence is right here in front of you?  OY! brother, get real.
Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: Amo on Sun Jul 21, 2019 - 09:57:32
Same old same old crap. At least seekingHiswisdom brought something different to the table. Not new, just different, which has already been addressed in the past on these threads. Rave on false prophets, I will continue to address your ravings at my convenience.
Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: seekingHiswisdom on Sun Jul 21, 2019 - 10:52:02
Rave on false prophets, I will continue to address your ravings at my convenience.


Yes, by all means let it be at your convenience.

BUT PLEASE... as you do address us, explain , as if to a first grader, why we are wrong.... and do so with proof.

You have all the proof when you post 'your' ravings in the political forum about the Vatican/Pope.  Here, not so much.

Can you document where these are wrong from my reply last evening?

But before addressing them let me definitively state that I am not at all against Ellen White, nor am I against Joseph Smith.
I , personally have high respect for anyone who believes they were selected by God to be a messenger to us. (I have penpalled with a couple over the years ... until their weirdness came out)

Both have brought certain truths to the table of Christianity, even though they do not concur with each other. That in and of itself is not necessarily bad.

Posters here cannot concur on baptism and here we have an actual written "manuscript" of a textbook for our use. And in multiple books of our textbook written by different inspired people. Nor can we concur on which actual day the crucifixion happened ::amen!::

But to place ones eternity into the hands of an individual or two that got their understanding by "divine inspiration" as both White and Smith did without corroboration of a tangible source or by witness makes me very nervous. It makes me nervous that there are not more people who came forward with the same messages of either of these two to verify that it really came from God. Our bible is from more than one.

At least Smith had those alledged gold tablets that HE took upon himself to transcribe.Which resulted in the Book of Mormon that is claimed to have had 8 witnesses in one account and 11 in another... ( http://www.mrm.org/eleven-witnesses)  ::pondering:: Of course those tablets disappeared, to never be seen again

But those 3 children ... The Roman Catholic ones... who saw "Mary " at Fatima had each other as witnesses as to what they were told.. and the crowd who came to see the miracle.... many did see a "dancing" sun, though not all.

So can you prove the following to be errors?

By D. Anderson

Amalgamation - A Denominational Embarrassment -- A statement appearing in 1864 indicates that "certain races of men" are a result of the "amalgamation of man and beast." What is amalgamation? Which races are the product of amalgamation? Why was this statement removed from later publications of this book? Widely recognized as the most embarrassing statement penned by Sister White!

Those Tall People of Jupiter -- In her infamous "solar system" vision Mrs. White not only saw Jupiter as having only four moons, but she also saw it inhabited by "a tall, majestic people, so unlike the inhabitants of earth." Is there evidence of life on Jupiter?

Embarrassing Failed Prophecies -- Over and over again, Mrs. White made specific predications about the return of Christ. Examine these prophecies for yourself.

https://www.searchingthescriptures.net/main_pages/answering_cults/seventh_day_adventism/analysis_whites_embarrassing_statements.htm
_____________________

One final thought about photographs.

My thoughts only.... no documentation.

When Ellen came about and wrote and spoke against photography.... ( which seems to me that since there are those of hers she was of the mind do as I say, not as I do)
this was during a time that it is well known that native Americans would never agree to have their photographs takes because
they felt that a captured image was taking their soul.

Ellen had to have know this and I just think that it possible she somehow had that influence what she believe she was instructed.

Something is off on this that she would "quote" a messenger of God then turn her own back on that message.....  ::tippinghat::





Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: Amo on Sun Jul 21, 2019 - 12:13:05
Yes, by all means let it be at your convenience.

BUT PLEASE... as you do address us, explain , as if to a first grader, why we are wrong.... and do so with proof.

You have all the proof when you post 'your' ravings in the political forum about the Vatican/Pope.  Here, not so much.

Can you document where these are wrong from my reply last evening?

But before addressing them let me definitively state that I am not at all against Ellen White, nor am I against Joseph Smith.
I , personally have high respect for anyone who believes they were selected by God to be a messenger to us. (I have penpalled with a couple over the years ... until their weirdness came out)

Both have brought certain truths to the table of Christianity, even though they do not concur with each other. That in and of itself is not necessarily bad.

Posters here cannot concur on baptism and here we have an actual written "manuscript" of a textbook for our use. And in multiple books of our textbook written by different inspired people. Nor can we concur on which actual day the crucifixion happened ::amen!::

But to place ones eternity into the hands of an individual or two that got their understanding by "divine inspiration" as both White and Smith did without corroboration of a tangible source or by witness makes me very nervous. It makes me nervous that there are not more people who came forward with the same messages of either of these two to verify that it really came from God. Our bible is from more than one.

At least Smith had those alledged gold tablets that HE took upon himself to transcribe.Which resulted in the Book of Mormon that is claimed to have had 8 witnesses in one account and 11 in another... ( [url]http://www.mrm.org/eleven-witnesses[/url])  ::pondering:: Of course those tablets disappeared, to never be seen again

But those 3 children ... The Roman Catholic ones... who saw "Mary " at Fatima had each other as witnesses as to what they were told.. and the crowd who came to see the miracle.... many did see a "dancing" sun, though not all.

So can you prove the following to be errors?

By D. Anderson

Amalgamation - A Denominational Embarrassment -- A statement appearing in 1864 indicates that "certain races of men" are a result of the "amalgamation of man and beast." What is amalgamation? Which races are the product of amalgamation? Why was this statement removed from later publications of this book? Widely recognized as the most embarrassing statement penned by Sister White!

Those Tall People of Jupiter -- In her infamous "solar system" vision Mrs. White not only saw Jupiter as having only four moons, but she also saw it inhabited by "a tall, majestic people, so unlike the inhabitants of earth." Is there evidence of life on Jupiter?

Embarrassing Failed Prophecies -- Over and over again, Mrs. White made specific predications about the return of Christ. Examine these prophecies for yourself.

[url]https://www.searchingthescriptures.net/main_pages/answering_cults/seventh_day_adventism/analysis_whites_embarrassing_statements.htm[/url]
_____________________

One final thought about photographs.

My thoughts only.... no documentation.

When Ellen came about and wrote and spoke against photography.... ( which seems to me that since there are those of hers she was of the mind do as I say, not as I do)
this was during a time that it is well known that native Americans would never agree to have their photographs takes because
they felt that a captured image was taking their soul.

Ellen had to have know this and I just think that it possible she somehow had that influence what she believe she was instructed.

Something is off on this that she would "quote" a messenger of God then turn her own back on that message.....  ::tippinghat::


Yes, I will get around to addressing that which you have gleaned from anti-EGW internet sites. It seems there is no end to EGW experts who have never really read her writings to begin with. Perhaps you are different as Beam claims to be, have you read much of EGW's writings? Her attackers on these boards are great at quoting her, and then making her testimony they quoted out to be what it was never meant to be. Then they ignore all of her writings quoted which do actually address their accusations because they contradict the same. This idol issue is maintained by ignoring the principles of what constitutes idol worship in order to maintain the idea that an idol is an actual material thing as apposed to the worship of a material thing by the individual. Anything can be made an idol by someone, while it never will be an idol for another. It is what is done with photographs or anything else that can make them an idol, not the thing itself. The childish raving of the false prophets on this issue, is to the effect that EGW did not understand this basic truth, and exclusively meant that photographs themsleves are idols, instead of people making them idols by putting to much time and money into them. These liars insist it is as they say, regardless of EGW's clear and concise testimony to the opposite effect. Now you wish to join them, so be it. They may ignore the following words of EGW for now which clarify that which they are deliberately obfuscating, but they will be brought back before them in the judgment as a testimony against their false witness.

Quote
MEDICAL MINISTRY, PAGE 226

The Law of Faith and Works

Let all examine their own hearts, to see if they are not cherishing that which is a positive injury to them, and in the place of opening the door of the heart to let Jesus, the Sun of Righteousness in, are complaining of the dearth of the Spirit of God. Let these search for their idols, and cast them out. Let them cut away every unhealthful indulgence in eating or drinking. Let them bring their daily practice into harmony with nature's laws. By doing, as well as believing, an atmosphere will be created about the soul that will be a savor of life unto life.—Manuscript 86, 1897.

SDA BIBLE COMMENTARY, VOL. 2 (EGW), PAGE 1011

Chapter 7

3. Modern Forms of Idolatry—Many who bear the name of Christians are serving other gods besides the Lord. Our Creator demands our supreme devotion, our first allegiance. Anything which tends to abate our love for God, or to interfere with the service due Him, becomes thereby an idol. With some their lands, their houses, their merchandise, are the idols. Business enterprises are prosecuted with zeal and energy, while the service of God is made a secondary consideration. Family worship is neglected, secret prayer is forgotten. Many claim to deal justly with their fellow men, and seem to feel that in so doing they discharge their whole duty. But it is not enough to keep the last six commandments of the decalogue. We are to love the Lord our God with all the heart. Nothing short of obedience to every precept—nothing less than supreme love to God as well as equal love to our fellow man—can satisfy the claims of the divine law.
There are many whose hearts have been so hardened by prosperity that they forget God, and forget the wants of their fellow man. Professed Christians adorn themselves with jewelry, laces, costly apparel, while the Lord's poor suffer for the necessaries of life. Men and women who claim redemption through a Saviour's blood will squander the means intrusted to them for the saving of other souls, and then grudgingly dole out their offerings for religion, giving liberally only when it will bring honor to themselves. These are idolaters (The Signs of the Times, January 26, 1882).

COUNSELS ON STEWARDSHIP, PAGE 37

If ever there was a time when sacrifices should be made, it is now. My brethren and sisters, practice economy in your homes. Put away the idols that you have placed before God. Give up your selfish pleasures. Do not, I beg of you, spend means in embellishing your houses; for your money belongs to God, and to Him you must give an account for its use. Do not use the Lord's money to gratify the fancies of your children. Teach them that God has a claim on all they possess, and that nothing can ever cancel this claim.

COUNSELS ON STEWARDSHIP, PAGE 220

Blinded by Love of the World

The cause of God is to hold the first place in our plans and affections. There is need of bearing a straight message concerning the indulgence of self while the cause of God is in need of means. Some are so cold and backslidden that they do not realize that they are setting their affections on earthly treasure, which is soon to be swept away forever. The love of the world is binding them about, like a thick garment; and unless they change their course, they will not know how precious it is to practice self-denial for Christ's sake. All our idols, our love of the world, must be expelled from the heart.

COUNSELS ON STEWARDSHIP, PAGE 288

Were the thousand channels of selfishness cut off that now exist, and the means directed in the right channel, there would be a large revenue flowing into the treasury. Many purchase idols with money that should go to the house of God. No one can practice real benevolence without practicing genuine self-denial. Self-denial and the cross lie directly in the path of every Christian who is truly following Christ. Jesus says: “If any man will come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me.” Will every soul consider the fact that Christian discipleship includes self-denial, self-sacrifice, even to the laying down of life itself, if need be, for the sake of Him who has given His life for the life of the world?


Twisting EGW's words to mean that all photo's are idols, does not make her turn her back upon testimony that spending to much time and money on photo's makes then idols, just because there are photo's of her. These are the accusations of false lying prophets.

You should be careful yourself seekingHiswisdom, that you don't fall into the trap of bearing the false witness of others. None who bear false witness against another will inhabit heaven. Make sure you know for yourself that which you are professing or accusing, don't go down with another's ship. Are you now a prophet of God? A women says an angel told her that putting to much time and money into photographs of one's self is a form of idol worship, you say that is not true and that she got her warning against making photographs an idol from indians thinking photos steal ones soul. Did God reveal such to you, or are you guessing?

Anyone who places their eternity in the hands of any but Christ are lost souls, EGW said as much many times over. I don't know why you brought such up.

As far as the comments you have taken from others concerning Jupiter, yes there is no doubt life on Jupiter as well as other planets within our solar system. They belong however to dimensions humanity is not longer privy to since the fall. No doubt they can see and interact with the angels also which we cannot to see or hear from inside the box of our fallen world. Even scientists believe there are at least ten dimensions. When the Lord returns our eyes will be opened and we will see many things all around us we have not been aware of at present.

I will look into the amalgamation claim, I have addressed it before years ago, but do not remember all the details involved.

Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: Amo on Sun Jul 21, 2019 - 12:28:14
https://text.egwwritings.org/publicationtoc.php?bookCode=Amal&lang=en&collection=2&section=all

The above link is apparently all about the amalgamation issue. I don't have time right now to examine it, but you might want to seekingHiswisdom, to get more than one side of the claim or accusation.
Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: seekingHiswisdom on Sun Jul 21, 2019 - 16:32:28
Yes, I will get around to addressing that which you have gleaned from anti-EGW internet sites. It seems there is no end to EGW experts who have never really read her writings to begin with. Perhaps you are different as Beam claims to be, have you read much of EGW's writings? Her attackers on these boards are great at quoting her, and then making her testimony they quoted out to be what it was never meant to be. Then they ignore all of her writings quoted which do actually address their accusations because they contradict the same. This idol issue is maintained by ignoring the principles of what constitutes idol worship in order to maintain the idea that an idol is an actual material thing as apposed to the worship of a material thing by the individual. Anything can be made an idol by someone, while it never will be an idol for another. It is what is done with photographs or anything else that can make them an idol, not the thing itself. The childish raving of the false prophets on this issue, is to the effect that EGW did not understand this basic truth, and exclusively meant that photographs themsleves are idols, instead of people making them idols by putting to much time and money into them. These liars insist it is as they say, regardless of EGW's clear and concise testimony to the opposite effect. Now you wish to join them, so be it. They may ignore the following words of EGW for now which clarify that which they are deliberately obfuscating, but they will be brought back before them in the judgment as a testimony against their false witness.

Twisting EGW's words to mean that all photo's are idols, does not make her turn her back upon testimony that spending to much time and money on photo's makes then idols, just because there are photo's of her. These are the accusations of false lying prophets.

You should be careful yourself seekingHiswisdom, that you don't fall into the trap of bearing the false witness of others. None who bear false witness against another will inhabit heaven. Make sure you know for yourself that which you are professing or accusing, don't go down with another's ship. Are you now a prophet of God? A women says an angel told her that putting to much time and money into photographs of one's self is a form of idol worship, you say that is not true and that she got her warning against making photographs an idol from indians thinking photos steal ones soul. Did God reveal such to you, or are you guessing?

Anyone who places their eternity in the hands of any but Christ are lost souls, EGW said as much many times over. I don't know why you brought such up.

As far as the comments you have taken from others concerning Jupiter, yes there is no doubt life on Jupiter as well as other planets within our solar system. They belong however to dimensions humanity is not longer privy to since the fall. No doubt they can see and interact with the angels also which we cannot to see or hear from inside the box of our fallen world. Even scientists believe there are at least ten dimensions. When the Lord returns our eyes will be opened and we will see many things all around us we have not been aware of at present.

I will look into the amalgamation claim, I have addressed it before years ago, but do not remember all the details involved.

Quote
     have you read much of EGW's writings? 

As yet, not as much as I have of other people who have had their own personal inspired messages that has caused them to at minimum write about them or at best actually be responsible for starting another branch of a "Christian" religion.

But there is much available and as I can I shall.

I owe it to another quasi kindred soul... ie. woman.

Quote
    This idol issue is maintained by ignoring the principles of what constitutes idol worship in order to maintain the idea that an idol is an actual material thing as apposed to the worship of a material thing by the individual 

I will confess to being intrigued by the title of this thread. It is what made me search for pictures of herself. Just seems like a contradiction unless she specifically found nothing wrong with photographs

 But I have seen nothing in writing that would indicate that.

By things that I have read of her I know it was common for her to be "slain in the spirit", though her family did not call it that, they just describe it.  I am familiar with the appearances but have never experienced.... And it was during these times that she often got
her guidance.

HONESTLY... I believe this much more then Joseph Smith out smoking who knows what when he was first told all religions are bad.

But I also think it possible that if she had been exposed to talk of native Americans abhorring photographs it well could have been
in her mind and during some "experience" it manifested itself. And it came through in thought of idol worship, not losing a soul as she would not subscribe to that idea at all.  Not at all unlike a dream that is so vivid as to be believed but can be traced to something seen or heard in the recent past.

THAT IS NOT FALSELY ACCUSING HER OF ANYTHING.

But lets say I am.... Go right ahead and add it to my increasing list of no nos that will need to be answered for. I will own that also.

If you are happy following her. I am happy for you.

I lived 72 years... 60 in conscious awareness of following the guidelines of my church that has been a lie all of my life by what they believe and taught. And only recently learned about that.

I should not have said anything cause I have not taken the plank out of my own eye. I retract everything I said.
 










Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: beam on Sun Jul 21, 2019 - 20:08:52
Hi Seeking,  if you are interested Amo wrote the following: "Anything can be made an idol by someone, while it never will be an idol for another. It is what is done with photographs or anything else that can make them an idol, not the thing itself. The childish raving of the false prophets on this issue, is to the effect that EGW did not understand this basic truth, and exclusively meant that photographs themsleves are idols, instead of people making them idols by putting to much time and money into them."  He is in his writings making an excuse for Ellen White by saying she didn't understand the basic truth that he goes on to present.   The real problem with his analysis is that Ellen was only stating what the "instructor" told her.  In many of her "visions" she would say it was her "instructor" or she would precede her vision with "I was shown" or "my angel".  She wanted her readers to know that what she said or wrote was not her own doing it was her, in the case of photographs, instructor.   It was the instructor who told her that photographs are idols.  She could have bee as dumb as a box of rocks on the subject, but certainly, someone from Heaven would not tell her something that was not true.  The instructor bit made it sound official.
Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: seekingHiswisdom on Mon Jul 22, 2019 - 07:47:44
Hi Seeking,  if you are interested Amo wrote the following: "Anything can be made an idol by someone, while it never will be an idol for another. It is what is done with photographs or anything else that can make them an idol, not the thing itself. The childish raving of the false prophets on this issue, is to the effect that EGW did not understand this basic truth, and exclusively meant that photographs themsleves are idols, instead of people making them idols by putting to much time and money into them."  He is in his writings making an excuse for Ellen White by saying she didn't understand the basic truth that he goes on to present.   The real problem with his analysis is that Ellen was only stating what the "instructor" told her.  In many of her "visions" she would say it was her "instructor" or she would precede her vision with "I was shown" or "my angel".  She wanted her readers to know that what she said or wrote was not her own doing it was her, in the case of photographs, instructor.   It was the instructor who told her that photographs are idols.  She could have bee as dumb as a box of rocks on the subject, but certainly, someone from Heaven would not tell her something that was not true.  The instructor bit made it sound official.

For the sake of clarity to one who is not as smart, admittedly, as the rest of you or the resident board genius yes I am interested in reading , learning and trying to come to an understanding of where and why you all believe and feel as you do. (NOTE please, I did not say to sway my personal beliefs and what I have come to understand)

So I thank you for your explanation of what you believe Amo meant by writing what he did.

You say " She wanted her readers to know that what she said or wrote was not her own doing it was her, in the case of photographs, instructor."

I ask if that is not what every prophet ( I use that term loosely) claims. That they get their knowledge and ideas from above, or an angel, or even a spirit guide?

That should be considered standard operating procedure to be able to lead another in the direction toward God that one may be trying to do.

That is NO different , IMHO, then all the authors in the Holy Bible having claimed, or someone else claimed for them that what they wrote was inspired from God. And even supported by Jesus when He said " “It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.' ”

Marshall Applewhite believed he was instructed from above. David Koresh believed he was instructed from above. Jim Jones believe he was instructed from  above..... and they all had their respective followers.

So for me it is a given that they do believe this.

But where I have my difficulty is believing... and this is believing ANY religion now.... if she actually was told that about photographs. Or if it is something that came to mind only that she thought came from above?

We will never know.

If she truly, in her heart believed this and it was the use of a photograph that was at fault, why would she have them,, more then one, taken of herself knowing that it would confuse her followers without a solid explanation that could be carried down through the generations.

OR.... is it possible she had her photographs taken before she said the instructor told her?

IDK.... and have no time to check out dates right now....

Do you know? Does Amo know?







Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: beam on Mon Jul 22, 2019 - 19:25:05
Hi seeking, I wonder if you missed the point of my post to you.  Amo made an excuse for Ellen tell us she didn't understand.  The fact is that all ellen did was to parrot the instructors words.  the instructor said photographs are Idols nothing more and nothing less.  There are so many things that Ellen wrote that her followers have to cover.  I was a SDA for many years and during that time I learned many things that do not support Ellen's being a true prophet.
Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: seekingHiswisdom on Tue Jul 23, 2019 - 08:01:53
Hi seeking, I wonder if you missed the point of my post to you.  Amo made an excuse for Ellen tell us she didn't understand.  The fact is that all ellen did was to parrot the instructors words.  the instructor said photographs are Idols nothing more and nothing less.  There are so many things that Ellen wrote that her followers have to cover.  I was a SDA for many years and during that time I learned many things that do not support Ellen's being a true prophet.

No I did not miss it.

As to the excuse that " Amo made an excuse for Ellen tell us she didn't understand. "

If she was amiss on something like this, that she herself felt exempt from WHAT ELSE did she not understand?

I ask... Would God let someone carry a message that they did not fully understand as to be able to explain it if asked?

I wonder.

My understanding of a prophet is an individual who is regarded as being in contact by a divine being and speaks on that entity's behalf, serving as an intermediary with humans by delivering messages or teachings from the supernatural source to other people.

Her parroting what she says she heard would not diminish that title.

But unlike the men of old who wrote the "inspired" things of God, that were incorporated into the Holy Bible... while accounts may differ somewhat... they all back up each other.

My problem lies with any single individual who says my "instructor" said such and such.

It may be so but it is not provable, yet millions of people over the years have placed their ultimate eternity on what one woman said, that can not be proven, any more then it can be "proven" that God actually told Joseph Smith that all religions were bad and  "When Joseph Smith was 14 years old, he wanted to know which church he should join, so he asked God in sincere prayer. In response to this prayer, God the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ, appeared to Joseph and told him the true Church of Jesus Christ was not on the earth and They had chosen Joseph to restore it"
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/topics/joseph-smith/testimony?lang=eng

So we have 2 opposing people, in many ways.... neither with witness corroboration. Yet each with millions of followers.

For me, it is troubling.







Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: beam on Tue Jul 23, 2019 - 20:07:32
I agree.  The 19th century produced a bunch of "leaders".  Mary Baker Eddy, Taze Russell, Thomas and Alexander Campbell and Amy Semple Mcpherson to name a few.  The difference between all of these and Ellen White is that Ellen had a serious head injury when she was a child that more than likely cause her disturbed mind.
Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: Amo on Fri Jul 26, 2019 - 10:13:45
As yet, not as much as I have of other people who have had their own personal inspired messages that has caused them to at minimum write about them or at best actually be responsible for starting another branch of a "Christian" religion.

But there is much available and as I can I shall.

I owe it to another quasi kindred soul... ie. woman.

I will confess to being intrigued by the title of this thread. It is what made me search for pictures of herself. Just seems like a contradiction unless she specifically found nothing wrong with photographs

 But I have seen nothing in writing that would indicate that.

By things that I have read of her I know it was common for her to be "slain in the spirit", though her family did not call it that, they just describe it.  I am familiar with the appearances but have never experienced.... And it was during these times that she often got
her guidance.

HONESTLY... I believe this much more then Joseph Smith out smoking who knows what when he was first told all religions are bad.

But I also think it possible that if she had been exposed to talk of native Americans abhorring photographs it well could have been
in her mind and during some "experience" it manifested itself. And it came through in thought of idol worship, not losing a soul as she would not subscribe to that idea at all.  Not at all unlike a dream that is so vivid as to be believed but can be traced to something seen or heard in the recent past.

THAT IS NOT FALSELY ACCUSING HER OF ANYTHING.

But lets say I am.... Go right ahead and add it to my increasing list of no nos that will need to be answered for. I will own that also.

If you are happy following her. I am happy for you.

I lived 72 years... 60 in conscious awareness of following the guidelines of my church that has been a lie all of my life by what they believe and taught. And only recently learned about that.

I should not have said anything cause I have not taken the plank out of my own eye. I retract everything I said.

If agreeing with another's views regarding scriptural doctrine or principles equals being their follower, then anyone who has ever read the views of others regrading the same and agreed with those views, is their follower as well. That is going to include just about every bible believer. I invite you as I have many others to show us just what biblical doctrines or principles of the SDA denomination, originated with EGW, or cannot be found in scripture.

When you stated - 
Quote
so what inspired her to write such a lie?
you conclusively stated that she was a liar. Now, either she is a liar, or you are, or perhaps both. No way around it.

I supplied you, and all here, with conclusive statements from EGW concerning idol worship. To the effect that people make idols of many different things by placing them above God in their lives. This is what she believed and wrote concerning the same. Nevertheless, you and others choose to ignore this and insist she specifically contradicts her own testimony and stated beliefs regarding idols, and believes photographs themselves are in fact idols above and apart from what people do with them. This even though she specifically addresses spending to much time and money on them in her testimony of them being idols. This is what you have chosen to believe someone else believes, not what their own testimony regarding idols declares. This is just what people do with scripture all the time. They take some words of scripture they like and make them mean what they wish, while disregarding other scripture which addresses the same issue yet contradicts what they have chosen to believe. The argue against or ignore the scriptures which add more light to the topic. So be it. God will judge how all have handled His word, and the words of each other. Those found to be twisting the intent of God's words and those of others will be found false witnesses. Here is more for you to consider, from the pen of the one you are addressing.

Quote
COUNSELS ON STEWARDSHIP, PAGE 298

Chapter 58—A Plea for Economy

There should be no extravagance in building fine homes, in buying costly furniture, in indulging in worldly dress, or in providing luxurious food; but in everything let us think of the souls for whom Christ has died. Let selfishness and pride die. Let none continue to expend means to multiply pictures to be sent to their friends. Let us save every dollar that can be saved, that the matchless charms of Christ may be presented before the souls of the perishing.
Satan will suggest many ways in which you may expend money. But if it is spent for self-gratification,—for unnecessary things, no matter how trifling their cost,—it is not spent for the glory of God. Let us look well to this matter, and see if we are denying ourselves as we should. Are we making sacrifices, that we may send the light of truth to the lost? ...

STEPS TO CHRIST, PAGE 118

Thank God for the bright pictures which He has presented to us. Let us group together the blessed assurances of His love, that we may look upon them continually: The Son of God leaving His Father's throne, clothing His divinity with humanity, that He might rescue man from the power of Satan; His triumph in our behalf, opening heaven to men, revealing to human vision the presence chamber where the Deity unveils His glory; the fallen race uplifted from the pit of ruin into which sin had plunged it, and brought again into connection with the infinite God, and having endured the divine test through faith in our Redeemer, clothed in the righteousness of Christ, and exalted to His throne—these are the pictures which God would have us contemplate.

THE BIBLE ECHO

November 19, 1894

Christ's Mission of Love

[A discourse given on the camp ground at Ashfield, N.S.W., Oct 21, 1894.]
Mrs. E. G. White

Is there not enough in nature to reveal God's love, and draw our hearts to Him? Look at the lofty trees; look at the spires of grass that clothe our earth with its green velvet carpet; look at the flowers which our God has provided because He is a lover of the beautiful.
When I was in Colorado some years since, I visited an art gallery, and there were groups of people standing before the pictures as if entranced, and praising the human artist. At evening as I was walking through the town, I saw the glory of the sunset. The bright beams were shining upon the snowcapped mountains, and it seemed as if the portals of heaven were opened, and its glory were streaming through. Persons were continually passing along the street, but none looked at the sight. My companion and myself were gazing upon it in rapture. I could discern in it heaven's beauty; I could see heaven's glory shining from the gates ajar, that we might conceive the beauty of what was within. But the crowds did not look upon the scene. That is the way God is treated.
How many go out into the garden with their children, and as they point them to the beautiful flowers say, “This is an expression of the love of God to you”? This would lead their minds up through nature to nature's God. Would not this be far more profitable to your children than taking them to all the shows and amusements of a demoralizing nature that would absorb their attention so that they forget God?

HOMEWARD BOUND, PAGE 206

God Is Owner, July 1

This is an obligation that rests upon every human being. It has to do with the whole sphere of human activity. Whether we recognize it or not, we are stewards, supplied from God with talents and facilities and placed in the world to do a work appointed by Him.
Money is not ours; houses and grounds, pictures and furniture, garments and luxuries, do not belong to us. We are pilgrims, we are strangers. We have only a grant of those things that are necessary for health and life. . . . Our temporal blessings are given us in trust, to prove whether we can be entrusted with eternal riches. If we endure the proving of God, then we shall receive that purchased possession which is to be our own—glory, honor, and immortality.

THE BIBLE ECHO

January 14, 1901

“No Other Gods Before Me”

Every true child of God will be sifted as wheat, and in the sifting process every cherished pleasure which diverts the mind from God must be sacrificed. In many families the mantel-shelves, stands, and tables are filled with ornaments and pictures. Albums, filled with photographs of the family and the photographs of their friends, are placed where they will attract the attention of visitors. Thus the thoughts, which should be upon God and heavenly interests are brought down to common things. Is not this a species of idolatry? Should not the money thus spent have been used to bless humanity, to relieve the suffering, to clothe the naked, and to feed the hungry? Should it not have been placed in the Lord's treasury to advance His cause and build up His kingdom in the earth?
This matter is of great importance, and it is urged upon you to save from the sin of idolatry. Blessing would come to your souls if you would obey the word spoken by the Holy One of Israel, “Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.” Many are creating unnecessary cares and anxieties for themselves by devoting time and thought to the unnecessary ornaments with which their houses are filled. The power of God is needed to arouse them from this devotion; for to all intents and purposes it is idolatry.
He who searches the heart desires to win His people from every species of idolatry. Let the word of God, the blessed Book of Life, occupy the table now filled with useless ornaments. Spend your money in buying books which will be the means of enlightening the mind in regard to present truth. The time you waste in moving and dusting the multitudinous ornaments in your house, spend in writing a few lines to your friends, in sending papers or leaflets or little books to some one who knows not the truth. Grasp the word of the Lord as the treasure of infinite wisdom and love; this is the guide book which points out the path to heaven. It points us to the sin-pardoning Saviour, saying, “Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.” Oh, that you would search the Scriptures with prayerful hearts, and a spirit of surrender to God. O that you would search your hearts as with a lighted candle, and discover and break the finest thread that binds you to worldly habits, which divert the mind from God. Plead with God to show you every practice which draws your thoughts and affections from Him. God has given His holy law to man as His measure of character. By this law you may see and overcome every defect in your character. You may sever yourself from every idol, and link yourself to the throne of God by the golden chain of grace and truth. The apostle writes:
“Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good. Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another; not slothful in business, fervent in spirit; serving the Lord; rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer; distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality.” Romans 12:9-13.

If a picture is worth a thousand words, then what are those words saying? If we have a whole lot of pictures around the house, that's a whole lot of words. What are those words about? Today pictures are easy. They once required far more time and money to procure and exhibit, nevertheless, they still have much to say.

Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: Amo on Fri Jul 26, 2019 - 10:25:53
Hi seeking, I wonder if you missed the point of my post to you.  Amo made an excuse for Ellen tell us she didn't understand.  The fact is that all ellen did was to parrot the instructors words.  the instructor said photographs are Idols nothing more and nothing less.  There are so many things that Ellen wrote that her followers have to cover.  I was a SDA for many years and during that time I learned many things that do not support Ellen's being a true prophet.

You certainly have not shown us anything here so convincing but in your own mind apparently. There is no excuse for any of us, nor will there be one. We will all stand before God and either be covered by the saving blood of Christ or not. A that time, all issues will  be resolved, including this one. Either you and your's, or EGW will be exonerated while the other is condemned for bearing false witness. Or both will be condemned. These are the possibilities. I'm not making excuses for EGW, just pointing out your false witnessing.
Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: Amo on Fri Jul 26, 2019 - 10:30:15
Hi seeking, I wonder if you missed the point of my post to you.  Amo made an excuse for Ellen tell us she didn't understand.  The fact is that all ellen did was to parrot the instructors words.  the instructor said photographs are Idols nothing more and nothing less.  There are so many things that Ellen wrote that her followers have to cover.  I was a SDA for many years and during that time I learned many things that do not support Ellen's being a true prophet.

A little reader comprehension might help on this one. I didn't say EGW didn't understand.
Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: Amo on Fri Jul 26, 2019 - 10:36:50
No I did not miss it.

As to the excuse that " Amo made an excuse for Ellen tell us she didn't understand. "

If she was amiss on something like this, that she herself felt exempt from WHAT ELSE did she not understand?

I ask... Would God let someone carry a message that they did not fully understand as to be able to explain it if asked?

I wonder.

My understanding of a prophet is an individual who is regarded as being in contact by a divine being and speaks on that entity's behalf, serving as an intermediary with humans by delivering messages or teachings from the supernatural source to other people.

Her parroting what she says she heard would not diminish that title.

But unlike the men of old who wrote the "inspired" things of God, that were incorporated into the Holy Bible... while accounts may differ somewhat... they all back up each other.

My problem lies with any single individual who says my "instructor" said such and such.

It may be so but it is not provable, yet millions of people over the years have placed their ultimate eternity on what one woman said, that can not be proven, any more then it can be "proven" that God actually told Joseph Smith that all religions were bad and  "When Joseph Smith was 14 years old, he wanted to know which church he should join, so he asked God in sincere prayer. In response to this prayer, God the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ, appeared to Joseph and told him the true Church of Jesus Christ was not on the earth and They had chosen Joseph to restore it"
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/topics/joseph-smith/testimony?lang=eng

So we have 2 opposing people, in many ways.... neither with witness corroboration. Yet each with millions of followers.

For me, it is troubling.

More reader comprehension issues. EGW understood and expressed very well what she believed about idolatry as the many quotes I have supplied reveal. Her accusers on this thread simply choose not to apply those principles, since doing such does not support their accusation.
Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: beam on Fri Jul 26, 2019 - 11:55:50
More reader comprehension issues. EGW understood and expressed very well what she believed about idolatry as the many quotes I have supplied reveal. Her accusers on this thread simply choose not to apply those principles, since doing such does not support their accusation.
Then why did Ellen quote her "instructor" as saying that photographs are idols?   Why did sh deceive the flock by writing those words?
Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: Amo on Sat Jul 27, 2019 - 09:59:52
Then why did Ellen quote her "instructor" as saying that photographs are idols?   Why did sh deceive the flock by writing those words?

She didn't deceive anyone. She explained why they could be idols even in the quotes you supplied, you simply choose to ignore this, and then twist and mutilate her words to your own ends. Apparently, she had much greater insight than you do concerning what her instructor meant, and what constitutes idolatry. Emphasis in the following quotes is mine.

Quote
COUNSELS ON STEWARDSHIP, PAGE 26

Death to All Piety


Christ is our example. He gave His life as a sacrifice for us, and He asks us to give our lives as a sacrifice for others. Thus we may cast out the selfishness which Satan is constantly striving to implant in our hearts. This selfishness is death to all piety, and can be overcome only by manifesting love to God and to our fellow men. Christ will not permit one selfish person to enter the courts of heaven. No covetous person can pass through the pearly gates; for all covetousness is idolatry.—The Review and Herald, July 11, 1899.

COUNSELS ON STEWARDSHIP, PAGE 84

Robbing God


To have your name on the church book does not make you a Christian. You are to bring your gifts to the altar of sacrifice, cooperating with God to the utmost of your ability, that through you He may reveal the beauty of His truth. Withhold nothing from the Saviour. All is His. You would have nothing to give did He not first give to you.
Selfishness has come in, and has appropriated to itself that which belongs to God. This is covetousness, which is idolatry. Men monopolize that which God has lent them, as though it were their own property, to do with as they please. When their power to grasp wealth is gratified, they think that their possessions make them of value in the sight of God. This is a snare, a deception of Satan. What does outward pomp and show avail? What do men and women gain by pride and self-indulgence? “What shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?” Worldly treasure is fleeting. Only through Christ can we obtain eternal riches. The wealth that He gives is beyond all computation. Having found God, you are supremely rich in the contemplation of His treasure. “Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love Him.”

COUNSELS ON STEWARDSHIP, PAGE 295

Many spend considerable sums for photographs to give to their friends. Picture taking is carried to extravagant lengths, and encourages a species of idolatry. How much more pleasing to God it would be if all this means were invested in publications which would direct souls to Christ and the precious truths for this time! The money wasted on needless things would supply many a table with reading matter on present truth, which would prove a savor of life unto life.

MEDICAL MINISTRY, PAGE 147

God calls upon all who claim to be Christians to elevate the standard of righteousness, and to purify themselves even as He is pure. “Be ye holy in all manner of conversation.” “If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above.... Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with Him in glory. Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: for which things’ sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience.” “Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; as obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance;” for you are to walk in the light, while you have the light; “but as He which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.”—Letter 6a, 1890.

Simplicity in Furnishing

MEDICAL MINISTRY, PAGE 167

Less expensively furnished rooms than you desire will be in accordance with the work God has given us to do in these last days. Your ideas are not molded and fashioned by a true practical idea of what it means to walk humbly with God. You look upon appearance as the great means of lifting you up to success. This is a delusion. You seek to make an appearance that is not in any way appropriate to the work God has given you to do, an appearance which it would require a large sum of money to keep up. We cannot consent to have the rooms of the sanitarium furnished in accordance with the idolatry of the age, even if this will bring an increase of patronage. Christian influence is of more value than this.
A desire for outside appearance is like a canker which is ever eating into the vitals. Appearance is a merciless tyrant. You need to guard against your inclination for show and entertainment.

SPECIAL TESTIMONIES ON EDUCATION, PAGE 210

These faithful youth were cast into the fire, but God manifested his power for the deliverance of his servants. One like unto the Son of God walked with them in the midst of the flame, and when they were brought forth, not even the smell of fire had passed on them. “Then Nebuchadnezzar spake, and said, Blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego, who hath sent his angel, and delivered his servants that trusted in him, and have changed the king's word, and yielded their bodies, that they might not serve nor worship any god, except their own God.”
Thus these youth, imbued with the Holy Spirit, declared to the whole nation their faith, that He whom they worshiped was the only true and living God. This demonstration of their own faith was the most eloquent presentation of their principles. In order to impress idolaters with the power and greatness of the living God, his servants must reveal their own reverence for God. They must make it manifest that he is the only object of their honor and worship, and that no consideration, not even the preservation of life itself, can induce them to make the least concession to idolatry.

I have quoted many of EGW's statements regarding idols and idolatry, there are still more. You choose to ignore all else but the one you twist to your own end in identifying EGW as a liar, which depends solely upon ignoring everything else she has said about idolatry. As though that one statements contradicts all else. This is your delusion, not hers or mine or anyone else's that does not care to take it upon themselves.
Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: seekingHiswisdom on Sat Jul 27, 2019 - 12:31:43
Then why did Ellen quote her "instructor" as saying that photographs are idols?   Why did sh deceive the flock by writing those words?

This is precisely my question.

You know... she was not altogether wrong in this by any means. Today there are hundreds of thousands of people world wide that look upon photographs of stars and musicians and even politicians with stars in their eyes , lut in their hearts and worship coursing through them.

But the way she presented things is nothing but confusing.... It is as if she was saying "Do as I say, not as I do."

Amo said

Quote
     I have quoted many of EGW's statements regarding idols and idolatry, there are still more. You choose to ignore all else but the one you twist to your own end in identifying EGW as a liar, which depends solely upon ignoring everything else she has said about idolatry. As though that one statements contradicts all else. This is your delusion, not hers or mine or anyone else's that does not care to take it upon themselves.   

NO, she did that herself.

You provided Ellens statements regarding idolatry ..... good.

But she never clarified what others, beside myself , might find as a contrast.

When Jesus walked the earth He lived the life He preached. When questioned He explained.... often by parable but......

She should never have had a photograph taken. That one act makes her seem to be not a liar so much as arrogant above others .

 1 Timothy 2:12
12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.

Was written and incorporated into Holy Canon for a reason. Why?

By all understanding Ellen was a woman. An obviously very charismatic one to have people follow her.
Was Timothy wrong?

OH I am sure you are wondering about myself and why I post things here.

I can assure you I am not a prophet, nor am I here to teach anyone anything from God. As my username tells you I seek His wisdom.

Quote
    More reader comprehension issues. EGW understood and expressed very well what she believed about idolatry as the many quotes I have supplied reveal. Her accusers on this thread simply choose not to apply those principles, since doing such does not support their accusation.   

Reader comprehension issues. Same as the rest of the GC posts being debated in a hot and heavy manner.

Quote
  If agreeing with another's views regarding scriptural doctrine or principles equals being their follower, then anyone who has ever read the views of others regrading the same and agreed with those views, is their follower as well. That is going to include just about every bible believer. I invite you as I have many others to show us just what biblical doctrines or principles of the SDA denomination, originated with EGW, or cannot be found in scripture.   

"If agreeing with another's views regarding scriptural doctrine or principles equals being their follower, then anyone who has ever read the views of others regrading the same and agreed with those views, is their follower as well"

Seriously? 

"is their follower as well"

That would qualify as being a Christian.  ::shrug::

For the most part all the mainline protestant religions believe in the end goal. So yes, I follow them.... and I learn from them all...
including SDA.

And yes, I have a lot of issues with all of them... for man screws up pretty much everything he touches and no two people understand the same. You have been here long enough to know that surly.

I have not been a "single church" person since the mid 1980s.

Even Joseph  Smith's had a point or two... insistence that women wear long sleeves for modesty because that truth is born and evidenced today  in seeing too many bra straps and peeks in the side of a short sleeve.

BUt he was not infallible, and neither was Ellen.

NO church is 100% right and no church is 100% wrong.

And when one finds something oddly out about their church of choice, they should embrace the opportunity to know about it, and see what they can find out about it.











Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: Amo on Sun Jul 28, 2019 - 11:16:03
This is precisely my question.

You know... she was not altogether wrong in this by any means. Today there are hundreds of thousands of people world wide that look upon photographs of stars and musicians and even politicians with stars in their eyes , lut in their hearts and worship coursing through them.

But the way she presented things is nothing but confusing.... It is as if she was saying "Do as I say, not as I do."

Amo said

NO, she did that herself.

You provided Ellens statements regarding idolatry ..... good.

But she never clarified what others, beside myself , might find as a contrast.

When Jesus walked the earth He lived the life He preached. When questioned He explained.... often by parable but......

She should never have had a photograph taken. That one act makes her seem to be not a liar so much as arrogant above others .

 1 Timothy 2:12
12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.

Was written and incorporated into Holy Canon for a reason. Why?

By all understanding Ellen was a woman. An obviously very charismatic one to have people follow her.
Was Timothy wrong?

OH I am sure you are wondering about myself and why I post things here.

I can assure you I am not a prophet, nor am I here to teach anyone anything from God. As my username tells you I seek His wisdom.

Reader comprehension issues. Same as the rest of the GC posts being debated in a hot and heavy manner.

"If agreeing with another's views regarding scriptural doctrine or principles equals being their follower, then anyone who has ever read the views of others regrading the same and agreed with those views, is their follower as well"

Seriously? 

"is their follower as well"

That would qualify as being a Christian.  ::shrug::

For the most part all the mainline protestant religions believe in the end goal. So yes, I follow them.... and I learn from them all...
including SDA.

And yes, I have a lot of issues with all of them... for man screws up pretty much everything he touches and no two people understand the same. You have been here long enough to know that surly.

I have not been a "single church" person since the mid 1980s.

Even Joseph  Smith's had a point or two... insistence that women wear long sleeves for modesty because that truth is born and evidenced today  in seeing too many bra straps and peeks in the side of a short sleeve.

BUt he was not infallible, and neither was Ellen.

NO church is 100% right and no church is 100% wrong.

And when one finds something oddly out about their church of choice, they should embrace the opportunity to know about it, and see what they can find out about it.

Same argument built upon the same faulty premise. You presume EGW meant all photos are themsleves idols, regardless of how very much she wrote and explained about idols to the contrary. Even that which is quoted to the effect you are trying to purvey, states the reason they can be idols, to much time and money being spent upon them. You yourself admit of this truth yet deny it for EGW who expressed it so many times, and even in the quotes that are twisted by the deceived to mean what they wish. This is how deception is, those who choose to believe a lie, cannot see the truth right in front of their faces.

You also presume that EGW spent a whole lot of time and money producing photo's of herself. Or are you a professed prophet saying you know she did? If she did, she was hypocritical, if she didn't, you are promoting a lie. By the way, EGW was a selfish sinner, just like the rest of us. There is no question that she was a hypocrite, just like the rest of us. Prophets are selfish sinners just like the rest of us. None of them are or were perfect, and when they lift up the perfect standards of God, it is God they are lifting up not themselves.
When I or any other Christians lift up the standards of Christ, we are lifting up that which is far above us, not what we ourselves are claiming to be. He is the standard, we most certainly are not.

Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God So Loved the World 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Without question, someone taking a lot of photos of self or someone else and spending a lot of time and money doing so and displaying such, is lifting up something other than Christ. As you yourself admit. Why will you not allow for EGW to have meant the same, when she wrote and expressed the same so very many times? What motivates you to do such?
 
Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: seekingHiswisdom on Sun Jul 28, 2019 - 12:34:43
Same argument built upon the same faulty premise. You presume EGW meant all photos are themsleves idols, regardless of how very much she wrote and explained about idols to the contrary. Even that which is quoted to the effect you are trying to purvey, states the reason they can be idols, to much time and money being spent upon them. You yourself admit of this truth yet deny it for EGW who expressed it so many times, and even in the quotes that are twisted by the deceived to mean what they wish. This is how deception is, those who choose to believe a lie, cannot see the truth right in front of their faces.

You also presume that EGW spent a whole lot of time and money producing photo's of herself. Or are you a professed prophet saying you know she did? If she did, she was hypocritical, if she didn't, you are promoting a lie. By the way, EGW was a selfish sinner, just like the rest of us. There is no question that she was a hypocrite, just like the rest of us. Prophets are selfish sinners just like the rest of us. None of them are or were perfect, and when they lift up the perfect standards of God, it is God they are lifting up not themselves.
When I or any other Christians lift up the standards of Christ, we are lifting up that which is far above us, not what we ourselves are claiming to be. He is the standard, we most certainly are not.

Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God So Loved the World 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Without question, someone taking a lot of photos of self or someone else and spending a lot of time and money doing so and displaying such, is lifting up something other than Christ. As you yourself admit. Why will you not allow for EGW to have meant the same, when she wrote and expressed the same so very many times? What motivates you to do such?

What motivates me to do such ::doh::

No matter what I would write you simply are incapable of understanding.

I am not calling Ellen a liar, but you do not even read or understand that.

I will say she was a poor communicator in some things. And that creates confusion to many.

You are clear on her meaning.

But you cannot read what I have written and understand me.
Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: beam on Sun Jul 28, 2019 - 20:00:32
Amo insists that I am a liar and Ellen didn't write that photographs are idoles.  I am going to repaste the OP statement that she wrote.   








SDAs like to dismiss Ellen's writing concerning photographs as being the cost back then.  The fact is that Ellen's angel told her that photographs are IDOLS and money should not be used to buy those idols.   Set aside the cost and consider the fact that the angel called the pictures idols.

During the night I was sorely distressed. A great burden rested upon me. I had been pleading
with God to work in behalf of His people. My attention was called to the money which they
have invested in photographs. I was taken from house to house, through the homes of our
 people, and as I went from room to room, my Instructor said, “Behold the idols which
have accumulated!” {RH September 10, 1901, par. 1}

As I visited the homes of our people and our schools, I see that all the available space on
tables, what-nots, and mantelpieces is filled up with photographs. On the right hand and
on the left are seen the pictures of human faces. God desires this order of things to be
changed. Were Christ on earth, He would say, “Take these things hence.” I have
been instructed that these pictures are as so many idols,taking up the time and
thought which should be sacredly devoted to God. {RH September 10, 1901, par. 2}
These photographs cost money. Is it consistent for us, knowing the work that is to be
done at this time, to spend God’s money in producing pictures of our own faces and the
faces of our friends? Should not every dollar that we can spare be used in the upbuilding
of the cause of God? These pictures take money that should be sacredly devoted to God’s
service; and they divert the mind from the truths of God’s word. {RH September 10, [size=78%]1901, par. 3}[/size][/size][size=78%] [/size]
[/size]This making and exchanging photographs is a species of idolatry. [size=78%]Satan is doing
all he can to eclipse heaven from our view. Let us not help him by making picture-idols.
We need to reach a higher standard than these human faces suggest. The Lord says, “Thou
 that they are to reflect His image. It is His likeness that is to be kept before the mind.
The words that are spoken are to be freighted with heavenly inspiration. {RH September 10,
1901, par. 4}

Why have SDAs completely ignored Ellen's "instructor"?   Why are the SDA magazines full of these idols?   
[/size][size=0.85em]


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Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: seekingHiswisdom on Sun Jul 28, 2019 - 20:58:01
Amo insists that I am a liar and Ellen didn't write that photographs are idoles.  I am going to repaste the OP statement that she wrote.   








SDAs like to dismiss Ellen's writing concerning photographs as being the cost back then.  The fact is that Ellen's angel told her that photographs are IDOLS and money should not be used to buy those idols.   Set aside the cost and consider the fact that the angel called the pictures idols.

During the night I was sorely distressed. A great burden rested upon me. I had been pleading
with God to work in behalf of His people. My attention was called to the money which they
have invested in photographs. I was taken from house to house, through the homes of our
 people, and as I went from room to room, my Instructor said, “Behold the idols which
have accumulated!” {RH September 10, 1901, par. 1}

As I visited the homes of our people and our schools, I see that all the available space on
tables, what-nots, and mantelpieces is filled up with photographs. On the right hand and
on the left are seen the pictures of human faces. God desires this order of things to be
changed. Were Christ on earth, He would say, “Take these things hence.” I have
been instructed that these pictures are as so many idols,taking up the time and
thought which should be sacredly devoted to God. {RH September 10, 1901, par. 2}
These photographs cost money. Is it consistent for us, knowing the work that is to be
done at this time, to spend God’s money in producing pictures of our own faces and the
faces of our friends? Should not every dollar that we can spare be used in the upbuilding
of the cause of God? These pictures take money that should be sacredly devoted to God’s
service; and they divert the mind from the truths of God’s word. {RH September 10, [size=78%]1901, par. 3}[/size][/size][size=78%] [/size]
[/size]This making and exchanging photographs is a species of idolatry. [size=78%]Satan is doing
all he can to eclipse heaven from our view. Let us not help him by making picture-idols.
We need to reach a higher standard than these human faces suggest. The Lord says, “Thou
 that they are to reflect His image. It is His likeness that is to be kept before the mind.
The words that are spoken are to be freighted with heavenly inspiration. {RH September 10,
1901, par. 4}

Why have SDAs completely ignored Ellen's "instructor"?   Why are the SDA magazines full of these idols?   
[/size][size=0.85em]


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I have been accused of calling Ellen a liar or that I am... which ever, it does not bother me cause neither is true....

I keep repeating I do not believe she was a liar. I do believe she was deceived in this. I personally believe that all " alleged" modern day prophets (including those back for 200 or 300 years are somewhat deceived with no evidence to corroborate what they are saying other then the listeners eager for enlightenment.

Your opening quote says... and this is from Ellen... "During the night I was sorely distressed. A great burden rested upon me. I had been pleading with God to work in behalf of His people. My attention was called to the money which they
have invested in photographs. I was taken from house to house, through the homes of our people, and as I went from room to room, my........."

She had been distressed and pleading and praying? with God to work on behalf of his people.........  This is not at all unlike those of us who pray nightly for God to take care of His people and our country, but not one of us... certainly not I... has come forward with a solution that was sent down that something we are doing or buying should not be done and the money from that should go to the church and to God's work....

It further states: "These photographs cost money. Is it consistent for us, knowing the work that is to be  done at this time, to spend God’s money in producing pictures of our own faces and the faces of our friends? Should not every dollar that we can spare be used in the upbuilding of the cause of God? These pictures take money that should be sacredly devoted to God’s
service; and they divert the mind from the truths of God’s word.

I had asked if Ellen had been told photos are or can be idols then why did she partake, and then I asked if anyone knew when she had hers taken? If before the instructor told her then no problem.

Of course, it is possible Ellen never paid a penny for any photos... that they were taken of her due to her standing.

But I notice the date on what you posted.... 1901... and then went looking and found this from 1905......

It bothers me.... and I AM NOT picking on her.

EVERY SINGLE RELIGION THAT PROFESSES CHRISTIANITY HAS ITS FAULTS. MINE LIKELY BEING THE WORST.

From Adventis Review

It shows White with her son William “Willie” C. White and his wife, May Lacey White, walking across the campus of what was then the newest Adventist college. The date 1905 is scrawled on the bottom left-hand corner of the print.

https://www.adventistreview.org/church-news/rare-photo-provides-a-walk-with-ellen-white-down-memory-lane

I think, though I do not speak for him that Amos trying to tell us she has been misquoted as she herself has said.

From Ellen
…Ellen White had been expressing concerns about Adventists quoting her writings and drawing conclusions that she did not intend.
https://lightbearers.org/blog/the-ellen-white-you-thought-you-knew/

That certainly can be quite understandable. It would upset me also. It does cause those here do not understand things I say and draw conclusions that were not intended.

Still  seems so odd that everyone who has founded a religion... Christian.... has been guided and told something different.

Ellen...  ::tippinghat::... my hat is off to you. I just think you got some things wrong.













Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: beam on Tue Jul 30, 2019 - 13:23:32
Quote
Ellen...  ... my hat is off to you. I just think you got some things wrong.

Great perception,  Would not getting some things wrong make her a false prophet?
Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: seekingHiswisdom on Tue Jul 30, 2019 - 14:10:44

Great perception,  Would not getting some things wrong make her a false prophet?



NO... NOT AT ALL.

Let see if I can explain this understandable.

A prophet is an individual who is regarded as being in contact with a divine being and is said to speak on that entity's behalf.

A false prophet is one who falsely claims the gift of prophecy or divine inspiration, or to speak for God, or who makes such claims for evil ends.

From: Testing Prophets

"There are no perfect prophets. Even the Old Testament prophets got things wrong at times. God allows his prophets to make mistakes to keep them humble and to prevent the church from becoming too dependent on them."

http://kingwatch.co.nz/Prophetic_Ministry/testing_prophets.htm

This certainly means that Ellen WAS NOT a false prophet at all.  It means she was human.

It has not escaped me, not should it you that every church founded on the words of a "prophet" is basically different in what their prophets were told or "instructed."

To me this means that no single church  can be considered infallible.

Not the Roman Catholics, Not the mainline Protestants, Not the Mormons (Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints) . Not the Jehovah Witnesses, Not the c of C nor the C of E , and Not the Seventh Day Adventists..... NOT ONE.

But just as it is said above " God allows his prophets to make mistakes to keep them humble and to prevent the church from becoming too dependent on them" I believe he permits this within the church itself to keep people from becoming to dependent on the church and not focused on Him only.



Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: beam on Tue Jul 30, 2019 - 21:49:10
So, your conclusion is Ellen didn't lie.  I take a definite issue with your opinion.  She said her "instructor", who came here from Heaven, by the way, told her photographs are idols.   Instructors from Heaven lying???  Does that sound like something someone from Heaven would do???

When was the plan of salvation formulated?  This is not a trick question.   After I get your answer I will reveal something unbelievable that supposedly came from Heaven.   It just might lead to your changing your mind about true prophets revealing false information.   Oral Roberts, prophet, did some great things, but he certainly was anything but a true prophet. 
Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: seekingHiswisdom on Wed Jul 31, 2019 - 20:11:01
So, your conclusion is Ellen didn't lie.  I take a definite issue with your opinion.  She said her "instructor", who came here from Heaven, by the way, told her photographs are idols.   Instructors from Heaven lying???  Does that sound like something someone from Heaven would do???

When was the plan of salvation formulated?  This is not a trick question.   After I get your answer I will reveal something unbelievable that supposedly came from Heaven.   It just might lead to your changing your mind about true prophets revealing false information.   Oral Roberts, prophet, did some great things, but he certainly was anything but a true prophet.


I say Ellen herself did not lie. I do believe she believe what she said and therefore she did not lie.

Yes, agreed, she said her instructor told her photos are idols.

But I never said I believe Ellen was a prophet.  I also never said that I believe her instructor was from heaven.

A lot of people... have delusional experiences of seeing and hearing things in their lives.

Look at all the people who show up on GC from time to time claiming to have "word from above".

NOT a single one of them has been believed... Why was Ellen?  Why was Joseph Smith? Why was Marshall Applewhite?

Ellen had a horrible accident that she recounts here.

"While I was but a child, my parents removed from Gorham to Portland, Maine. Here, at the age of nine years, an accident happened to me which was to affect my whole life. In company with my twin sister and one of our schoolmates, I was crossing a common in the city of Portland, when a girl about thirteen years of age, becoming angry at some trifle, threw a stone that hit me on the nose. I was stunned by the blow, and fell senseless to the ground.

When consciousness returned, I found myself in a merchant's store. A kind stranger offered to take me home in his carriage, but I, not realizing my weakness, told him that I preferred to walk. Those present were not aware that my injury was so serious, and allowed me to go; but after walking only a few rods, I grew faint and dizzy. My twin sister and my schoolmate carried me home.

I have no recollection of anything further for some time after the accident. My mother said that I noticed nothing, but lay in a stupor for three weeks. No one but herself thought it possible for me to recover, but for some reason she felt that I would live."

http://www.ellenwhite.info/ellen_white_life_1a.htm

Now... I have read that when she had her "visions or visitations" it seemed as if she were slain in the Spirit. (DO I NEED TO EXPLAIN THAT?)

I have also read that she would suffer things similar to epileptic seizures.

We actually have no way to know who or what she experienced and if it was real or the result of her childhood accident.

BUT LET US ASSUME THAT SHE ACTUALLY DID HAVE AN INSTRUCTOR WHO SAID PHOTOGRAPHS WERE IDOLS.

This actually makes sense in that she was very disapproving of the Catholic Church and they, of course, have many statues and pictures that people pray to and light candles to ........ and wanting to be certain to distance her beliefs and church from the RCC would be logical in the elimination of anything that could be construed to be similar to them.

Perhaps the instructor regarded photographs as violation of the 2nd commandment.......

   “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My Commandments.

It could well be that she was instructed because of this or her mind gave her that idea.

But that still would not explain why she would have hers taken.... (Even though Amo has tried to explain that was not what she meant.)

I will finish my comments on her to say I do not think she lied deliberately. But I think it more then possible she  could have been deceived  from a damaged portion of her own brain or simply not understanding. Especially when I have read

In describing Ellen White’s mental state while in vision, Hodder and Couperus state respectively that she “lost consciousness”22 or “was unaware of her surroundings”. 23 The record also shows that although she was usually amnesic concerning some of the content of her visions immediately upon regaining consciousness, she was later able to recall what she had seen in great detail

https://whiteestate.org/legacy/issues-visions-html/

You ask.

Quote
      When was the plan of salvation formulated?  This is not a trick question.   After I get your answer I will reveal something unbelievable that supposedly came from Heaven.   It just might lead to your changing your mind about true prophets revealing false information.   Oral Roberts, prophet, did some great things, but he certainly was anything but a true prophet.       


Well, I am going to give you an answer that not a single other soul on GC or that you are likely to encounter will agree with because of the why I believe this.

I say the plan of salvation was formed at some point before Adam was created. Not before the beginning of creation because I am not one of those evolutionist believers or that the earth is necessarily trillions of years old. And I am definitely not a YE believer.

I believe Adam was the set point for salvation to begin.

As to the Oral Roberts prophet idea, agreed he was not but  yes he did some great things.. In fact, my ophthalmologist graduated from Oral Roberts University. And if you want him to he will pray with you before he operates.... which I appreciate.



Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: beam on Wed Jul 31, 2019 - 22:10:03
I say Ellen herself did not lie. I do believe she believe what she said and therefore she did not lie.

Yes, agreed, she said her instructor told her photos are idols.

But I never said I believe Ellen was a prophet.  I also never said that I believe her instructor was from heaven.

A lot of people... have delusional experiences of seeing and hearing things in their lives.

Look at all the people who show up on GC from time to time claiming to have "word from above".

NOT a single one of them has been believed... Why was Ellen?  Why was Joseph Smith? Why was Marshall Applewhite?

Ellen had a horrible accident that she recounts here.

"While I was but a child, my parents removed from Gorham to Portland, Maine. Here, at the age of nine years, an accident happened to me which was to affect my whole life. In company with my twin sister and one of our schoolmates, I was crossing a common in the city of Portland, when a girl about thirteen years of age, becoming angry at some trifle, threw a stone that hit me on the nose. I was stunned by the blow, and fell senseless to the ground.

When consciousness returned, I found myself in a merchant's store. A kind stranger offered to take me home in his carriage, but I, not realizing my weakness, told him that I preferred to walk. Those present were not aware that my injury was so serious, and allowed me to go; but after walking only a few rods, I grew faint and dizzy. My twin sister and my schoolmate carried me home.

I have no recollection of anything further for some time after the accident. My mother said that I noticed nothing, but lay in a stupor for three weeks. No one but herself thought it possible for me to recover, but for some reason she felt that I would live."

[url]http://www.ellenwhite.info/ellen_white_life_1a.htm[/url]

Now... I have read that when she had her "visions or visitations" it seemed as if she were slain in the Spirit. (DO I NEED TO EXPLAIN THAT?)

I have also read that she would suffer things similar to epileptic seizures.

We actually have no way to know who or what she experienced and if it was real or the result of her childhood accident.

BUT LET US ASSUME THAT SHE ACTUALLY DID HAVE AN INSTRUCTOR WHO SAID PHOTOGRAPHS WERE IDOLS.

This actually makes sense in that she was very disapproving of the Catholic Church and they, of course, have many statues and pictures that people pray to and light candles to ........ and wanting to be certain to distance her beliefs and church from the RCC would be logical in the elimination of anything that could be construed to be similar to them.

Perhaps the instructor regarded photographs as violation of the 2nd commandment.......

   “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My Commandments.

It could well be that she was instructed because of this or her mind gave her that idea.

But that still would not explain why she would have hers taken.... (Even though Amo has tried to explain that was not what she meant.)

I will finish my comments on her to say I do not think she lied deliberately. But I think it more then possible she  could have been deceived  from a damaged portion of her own brain or simply not understanding. Especially when I have read

In describing Ellen White’s mental state while in vision, Hodder and Couperus state respectively that she “lost consciousness”22 or “was unaware of her surroundings”. 23 The record also shows that although she was usually amnesic concerning some of the content of her visions immediately upon regaining consciousness, she was later able to recall what she had seen in great detail

[url]https://whiteestate.org/legacy/issues-visions-html/[/url]

I agree her head injury affected her brain.

Quote
You ask.

Well, I am going to give you an answer that not a single other soul on GC or that you are likely to encounter will agree with because of the why I believe this.

I say the plan of salvation was formed at some point before Adam was created. Not before the beginning of creation because I am not one of those evolutionist believers or that the earth is necessarily trillions of years old. And I am definitely not a YE believer.

I believe Adam was the set point for salvation to begin.

As to the Oral Roberts prophet idea, agreed he was not but  yes he did some great things.. In fact, my ophthalmologist graduated from Oral Roberts University. And if you want him to he will pray with you before he operates.... which I appreciate.
The following is another conflicting statement with what you believe and the Bible teaches.  Notice it was her angel this time.  I don't believe angels lie, do you?

 Sorrow filled heaven, as it was realized that man was lost ... I saw the lovely Jesus and beheld an expression of sympathy and sorrow upon His countenance. Soon I saw Him approach the exceeding bright light which enshrouded His Father. Said my accompanying angel, He is in close converse with the Father.... Three times He was shut in by the glorious light about the Father, and the third time He came from the Father, His person could be seen.... He then made known to the angelic host that a way of escape had been made for lost man. He told them that He had been pleading with His Father, and had offered to give His life a ransom, to take the sentence of death upon Himself ... Jesus bade the heavenly host be reconciled to the plan that His Father had accepted... Early Writings, pp. 149-151.
Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: seekingHiswisdom on Thu Aug 01, 2019 - 10:13:15
I agree her head injury affected her brain.
The following is another conflicting statement with what you believe and the Bible teaches.  Notice it was her angel this time.  I don't believe angels lie, do you?

 Sorrow filled heaven, as it was realized that man was lost ... I saw the lovely Jesus and beheld an expression of sympathy and sorrow upon His countenance. Soon I saw Him approach the exceeding bright light which enshrouded His Father. Said my accompanying angel, He is in close converse with the Father.... Three times He was shut in by the glorious light about the Father, and the third time He came from the Father, His person could be seen.... He then made known to the angelic host that a way of escape had been made for lost man. He told them that He had been pleading with His Father, and had offered to give His life a ransom, to take the sentence of death upon Himself ... Jesus bade the heavenly host be reconciled to the plan that His Father had accepted... Early Writings, pp. 149-151.

 Before I go on I will remind you that I said you and others will not agree
with what I have come to believe. This is not the thread, or even forum to get into that, and frankly I am not up to the task of defending what I see as I read the Holy Bible.. I am not filled with the Holy Spirit,according to some and therefore unable to read and understand without those here telling me what it says .  ::tippinghat:: But that does not offset what I see as I study.

Here is a question to ask yourself.

Of what you copied and pasted Jesus said... or so Ellen believed

 "Sorrow filled heaven, as it was realized that man was lost ... I saw the lovely Jesus and beheld an expression of sympathy and sorrow upon His countenance. Soon I saw Him approach the exceeding bright light which enshrouded His Father. Said my accompanying angel, He is in close converse with the Father.... Three times He was shut in by the glorious light about the Father, and the third time He came from the Father, His person could be seen....

 He then made known to the angelic host that a way of escape had been made for lost man. He told them that He had been pleading with His Father, and had offered to give His life a ransom, to take the sentence of death upon Himself ... Jesus bade the heavenly host be reconciled to the plan that His Father had accepted... Early Writings"

QUESTION:

When exactly did Jesus beg the Father to allow him to die for humanity?

Was it during the observation of the 3 times she saw Jesus conversing with the Father during that specific vision,
as if it was currently at that moment agreed upon?
Or could it have been a flash back to the decision made and agreed upon that
may have been a coupe thousand years earlier?

Ellen had originally, before her visions, been a Methodist.

Methodists believe in the Holy Trinity.

The following influenced Ellen from a very young age.


The following are five beliefs that set Methodists apart from other Protestant Christians.

1. Logic and Reason: The most fundamental distinction of Methodist teaching is that people must use logic and reason in all matters of faith. Methodism has its roots in 18th century Anglicanism. Its founder was a Church of England minister, John Wesley (1703-1791), who, according to BBC, "sought to challenge the religious assumptions of the day. He and others met regularly for bible study and prayer, to receive communion and do acts of charity. They became known as "The Holy Club" or "Methodists" because of the methodical way in which they carried out their Christian faith."

2. Evangelism and mission: A unique feature of American Methodism is the observance of the season of Kingdomtide, which encompasses the last 13 weeks before Advent. During Kingdomtide, Methodists are encouraged to do charitable work and alleviate the suffering of the poor. Methodism is characterized by its emphasis on helping the poor and the average person. These ideals are put into practice by the establishment of hospitals, universities, orphanages, soup kitchens, and schools.

3. Covenant Services: Most Methodist churches annually follow the call of John Wesley for a renewal of their covenant with God. It is common for each congregation to hold an annual Covenant Service on the first Sunday of the year. The original covenant prayer given by John Wesley is still widely used, with minor modifications.

4. Inclusiveness: Methodists are convinced that building loving relationships with others through social service is a means of working towards the inclusiveness of God's love. Most Methodists teach that Christ died for all of humanity, not just for a limited group, and thus everyone is entitled to God's grace and protection. In theology, this view denies that God has pre-ordained an elect number of people to eternal bliss while others are doomed to hell no matter what they do in life.

5. Music: Methodism is known for its rich musical tradition. Singing is a big part of the Methodist Church service. Charles Wesley, brother of the church founder, was instrumental in writing some 6,000 hymns, and many other eminent hymn writers come from the Methodist tradition.

   
https://www.newsmax.com/fastfeatures/methodists-protestant-beliefs-christians/2015/04/02/id/635806/

QUESTION continued: So I go back to asking when did this "begging " of Jesus to God begin?

You say;

The following is another conflicting statement with what you believe and the Bible teaches.  Notice it was her angel this time.  I don't believe angels lie, do you?

Do angels lie?

Let's use the Bible to tell us:

Isaiah 14:12-1 King James Version (KJV)
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
"God created Satan as one of Heaven's most beautiful angels. Lucifer means "light-bearer" and was referred to as the "morning star." However, the devil was jealous and rebelled against God. Isaiah 14:12 says, "How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!" The devil's prideful revolt and greed for power turned him into a self-proclaimed enemy of God. He wanted to replace God in every way. Regardless of what name he is called, he is not on equal footing with God.
https://www.allaboutspirituality.org/fallen-angels-faq.htm

John 8:44 King James Version (KJV)
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

So for me that would be an unequivocable  YES and is biblically supported.

Ellen's recount of Jesus begging his Father to implement a plan to have Himself killed IS NOT

QUESTION: Assuming you believe in the Trinity... many here donot...
We have God the Father, God the Son.etc......

If you do not believe in the Trinity but just that God is God and Jesus is His son

WHO is Jesus' mother?

One final note about Ellen.... WHICH DOES NOT MATTER ONE IOTA. Just for those who may be reading here and not know.

Ellen racial mix was that of a Mulatto.

"James White along with his mulatto wife, Ellen White also moved westward to Saratoga, to Rochester, New York to Ohio on onward to Battle Creek, Michigan where they lived among the Colored people. [p. 12]"


[Ellen] could relate with the plight of the mulatto and slave groups for these were her people. [p. 13]

https://whiteestate.org/legacy/issues-genealogy-html/

BTW... appears she was baptised at age 14

In 1840, at age 12, her family became involved with the Millerite movement. As she attended William Miller's lectures, she felt guilty for her sins and was filled with terror about being eternally lost. She describes herself as spending nights in tears and prayer and being in this condition for several months. On June 26, 1842, she was baptized by John Hobart in Casco Bay in Portland, Maine, and eagerly awaited Jesus to come again.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellen_G._White

So Beam: I know you are disagreeing with me. Most do. It is alright.....

But I thank you for these exchanges because since looking into Ellen's background.. I have developed an immense respect for her.

I did not say I believe her to be a prophet. But I do respect her. She was working as a minority of race as well as the handicap of gender. That says a lot.
Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: beam on Sat Aug 03, 2019 - 07:50:47
Ellen wrote in other places that the plan of salvation was formulated before the foundation of the Earth.  She at first wrote a false account in Early Writings and later wrote the truth.  I have to wonder how many people were influenced by the writing in Early Writings.


Ellen and flock early on did not believe in the Trinity according to historians.  I stopped studying her writings when I found that she plagiarized much of her writings and actually lied about having visions.  I am so thankful that I was able to see the real truth and that I am no longer associated.
Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: Amo on Sat Aug 03, 2019 - 11:02:01
Amo insists that I am a liar and Ellen didn't write that photographs are idoles.  I am going to repaste the OP statement that she wrote.   


SDAs like to dismiss Ellen's writing concerning photographs as being the cost back then.  The fact is that Ellen's angel told her that photographs are IDOLS and money should not be used to buy those idols.   Set aside the cost and consider the fact that the angel called the pictures idols.

During the night I was sorely distressed. A great burden rested upon me. I had been pleading
with God to work in behalf of His people. My attention was called to the money which they
have invested in photographs. I was taken from house to house, through the homes of our
 people, and as I went from room to room, my Instructor said, “Behold the idols which
have accumulated!” {RH September 10, 1901, par. 1}

As I visited the homes of our people and our schools, I see that all the available space on
tables, what-nots, and mantelpieces is filled up with photographs. On the right hand and
on the left are seen the pictures of human faces. God desires this order of things to be
changed. Were Christ on earth, He would say, “Take these things hence.” I have
been instructed that these pictures are as so many idols,taking up the time and
thought which should be sacredly devoted to God. {RH September 10, 1901, par. 2}
These photographs cost money. Is it consistent for us, knowing the work that is to be
done at this time, to spend God’s money in producing pictures of our own faces and the
faces of our friends? Should not every dollar that we can spare be used in the upbuilding
of the cause of God? These pictures take money that should be sacredly devoted to God’s
service; and they divert the mind from the truths of God’s word. {RH September 10, [size=78%]1901, par. 3}[/size][/size][size=78%] [/size]
[/size]This making and exchanging photographs is a species of idolatry. [size=78%]Satan is doing
all he can to eclipse heaven from our view. Let us not help him by making picture-idols.
We need to reach a higher standard than these human faces suggest. The Lord says, “Thou
 that they are to reflect His image. It is His likeness that is to be kept before the mind.
The words that are spoken are to be freighted with heavenly inspiration. {RH September 10,
1901, par. 4}

Why have SDAs completely ignored Ellen's "instructor"?   Why are the SDA magazines full of these idols?   
[/size][size=0.85em]


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We are not the one's ignoring things, you are.

Quote
THE REVIEW AND HERALD

September 10, 1901

“No Other Gods Before Me”

Mrs. E. G. White
During the night I was sorely distressed. A great burden rested upon me. I had been pleading with God to work in behalf of His people. My attention was called to the money which they have invested in photographs. I was taken from house to house, through the homes of our people, and as I went from room to room, my Instructor said, “Behold the idols which have accumulated!”
As I visited the homes of our people and our schools, I see that all the available space on tables, what-nots, and mantelpieces is filled up with photographs. On the right hand and on the left are seen the pictures of human faces. God desires this order of things to be changed. Were Christ on earth, He would say, “Take these things hence.” I have been instructed that these pictures are as so many idols, taking up the time and thought which should be sacredly devoted to God.
These photographs cost money. Is it consistent for us, knowing the work that is to be done at this time, to spend God's money in producing pictures of our own faces and the faces of our friends? Should not every dollar that we can spare be used in the upbuilding of the cause of God? These pictures take money that should be sacredly devoted to God's service; and they divert the mind from the truths of God's word.
This making and exchanging photographs is a species of idolatry. Satan is doing all he can to eclipse heaven from our view. Let us not help him by making picture-idols. We need to reach a higher standard than these human faces suggest. The Lord says, “Thou shalt have no other gods before me.” Those who claim to believe in Christ need to realize that they are to reflect His image. It is His likeness that is to be kept before the mind. The words that are spoken are to be freighted with heavenly inspiration.


You choose to ignore the reasons given for these photos to be considered idols. You insist EGW and the angel are saying all photos are idols even though as one part of the quote conclusively states, we are not to help Satan by "making" picture idols. We make them idols when we put to much time and money into them, directing peoples attention to ourselves and or families or whatever, rather than God in Christ Jesus. As I have stated over and over again, you are the one ignoring what is right in front of your face, that you may bear false witness and spread your lies. So be it.

Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: Amo on Sat Aug 03, 2019 - 11:21:33
Ellen wrote in other places that the plan of salvation was formulated before the foundation of the Earth.  She at first wrote a false account in Early Writings and later wrote the truth.  I have to wonder how many people were influenced by the writing in Early Writings.


Ellen and flock early on did not believe in the Trinity according to historians.  I stopped studying her writings when I found that she plagiarized much of her writings and actually lied about having visions.  I am so thankful that I was able to see the real truth and that I am no longer associated.

Same old broken record lies and crap. As though God actually allowing events to play out and explaining things along the way, equals, He didn't know about it to begin with. You have rejected truth and now because of this, simply cannot any longer see it right in front of your face. You draw illogical and false conclusions because your reasoning is damaged by the rejection of truth.

As I have already pointed out several times. If God wouldn't bother allowing for the acting out and explanation of the events connected with His creations, He would not bother ever creating anything, since without question He already knows the future of all His creations. Nevertheless here we are, the creation, fall, and God's redemption all playing out and being explained to His own by Him as events unfold. Your perception is warped by rejection of the truth.

Here we are, bring forth your proof of plagiarizing, rejection of the Father, Son, and or Holy spirit, and lying about visions. I find your proofs to be very lacking as such at all.
Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: beam on Sun Aug 04, 2019 - 05:20:11
Same old broken record lies and crap. As though God actually allowing events to play out and explaining things along the way, equals, He didn't know about it to begin with. You have rejected truth and now because of this, simply cannot any longer see it right in front of your face. You draw illogical and false conclusions because your reasoning is damaged by the rejection of truth.
When backed into a corner spewing hatefulness is your only defense albeit the poorest way. 

Quote
As I have already pointed out several times. If God wouldn't bother allowing for the acting out and explanation of the events connected with His creations, He would not bother ever creating anything, since without question He already knows the future of all His creations. Nevertheless here we are, the creation, fall, and God's redemption all playing out and being explained to His own by Him as events unfold. Your perception is warped by rejection of the truth.
Oh, so now her explanation is a play?   A play that happened after man had fallen.  Really a stupid way to defend what is not defendable.

Quote
Here we are, bring forth your proof of plagiarizing, rejection of the Father, Son, and or Holy spirit, and lying about visions. I find your proofs to be very lacking as such at all.
And I find your head buried in the sand concerning all the proof we have that she certainly did plagiarize big time.
Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: seekingHiswisdom on Sun Aug 04, 2019 - 08:26:37
So, your conclusion is Ellen didn't lie.  I take a definite issue with your opinion.  She said her "instructor", who came here from Heaven, by the way, told her photographs are idols.   

She said......... HE SAID. Can you prove to me her instructor did not say that?

Better yet ........YOU prove to me that her instructor came from Heaven.

We had 3 children who witnessed, more than once, the woman who gave birth to Jesus, by the name of Mary, appear to these 3 children in 1917. 102 years ago.

Between May and October of 1917 three shepherd children, Lucia Santos and her cousins Jacinta and Francisco Marto, reported visions of a luminous lady believed to be the Virgin Mary. She appeared to the children in the Cova da Iria fields outside the hamlet of Aljustrel near Fatima, Portugal. She appeared to them on the 13th day of each month at approximately noon.

Then , in order to prove her being real she performed what has been referred to as a miracle.

"The story of a famous miracle in Fátima, Portugal, began in May 1917, when three children (ages 7, 9, and 10) claimed to have encountered the Virgin Mary on their way home from tending a flock of sheep. The oldest girl, Lucia, was the only one to speak to her, and Mary told the children that she would reappear to them on the thirteenth day of the next six months. She then vanished.

It was Mary's final appearance, on Oct. 13, 1917, that became the most famous. In his book "Looking for a Miracle," Joe Nickell states that "an estimated 70,000 people were in attendance at the site, anticipating the Virgin's final visit and with many fully expecting that she would work a great miracle. As before, the figure appeared, and again only to the children. Identifying herself as 'the Lady of the Rosary,' she urged repentance and the building of a chapel at the site. After predicting an end to [World War I] and giving the children certain undisclosed visions, the lady lifted her hands to the sky. Thereupon Lucia exclaimed, 'The sun!' As everyone gazed upward, and saw that a silvery disc had emerged from behind clouds, they experienced what is known [as] a 'sun miracle'."

Not everyone reported the same thing; some present claimed they saw the sun dance around the heavens; others said the sun zoomed toward Earth in a zigzag motion that caused them to fear that it might collide with our planet (or, more likely, burn it up). Some people reported seeing brilliant colors spin out of the sun in a psychedelic, pinwheel pattern, and thousands of others present didn't see anything unusual at all."

https://www.livescience.com/29290-fatima-miracle.html

So,here we have 3 children that Mary prophesied to and spoke with and instructed.

Followed up by many who actually saw something happen with the sun.

I am the farthest thing on the boards from a Catholic apologist.

Not because I do not believe that Mary did not appear to these children, but I believe that man, through the centuries, has gotten more wrong in that religion then they got right.

I only bring this up because we have more then a single person witnessing something happening and more then one hearing instructions.

Unlike Ellen who would go into a seizure, or perhaps a trance and her nameless instructor talked only to her .

Even, Joseph Smith... who may well have been smoking whatever when he first believed he was hearing from an angel of God, had some kind of a Golden Tablet that he, himself, undertook todecipher..... before they disappeared to never be seen again...

At least ............

"Joseph Smith was careful to obey the command from the Lord that he not show the plates to others. As he translated the Book of Mormon, Joseph learned that special witnesses would be called to bear testimony of the ancient record written on metal plates. He was quite relieved when he was permitted to show the plates to several witnesses. Those witnesses were then commanded to testify of their experience to others and to write their testimonies concerning the Book of Mormon."
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/new-era/2007/07/what-did-the-golden-plates-look-like?lang=eng

I'm not discounting anyone who has , or claims to have,a vision or instruction from above....


Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: seekingHiswisdom on Sun Aug 04, 2019 - 08:54:40
Ellen wrote in other places that the plan of salvation was formulated before the foundation of the Earth.  She at first wrote a false account in Early Writings and later wrote the truth.  I have to wonder how many people were influenced by the writing in Early Writings.


Ellen and flock early on did not believe in the Trinity according to historians.  I stopped studying her writings when I found that she plagiarized much of her writings and actually lied about having visions.  I am so thankful that I was able to see the real truth and that I am no longer associated.

Ellen wrote in other places that the plan of salvation was formulated before the foundation of the Earth.  She at first wrote a false account in Early Writings and later wrote the truth.  I have to wonder how many people were influenced by the writing in Early Writings.

What DO YOU believe to be the truth?

Yes, I find it troublesome that one changes their mind after having talked of being told from an instructor.

Or were her early writings based on what she read and studied herself and not from the Instructor?

As to how many people were influenced by her early writings....

First: Does it matter?

Next: Did she teach anything that would be anti Jesus or Anti God?

If she wrote of wrong things, as she interpreted what she thought she was told and people got it wrong... SO WHAT.

As long as God/Jesus were the center of their lives what else mattered.

If folks were following her, and had properfaith within their hearts, it should not matter because I firmly believe that God would know these folks and that their heart and faith were seeking only Him/Them.

As to her stop believing in the Trinity....

Originally Methodist ( who believes) seems natural to fall away when you feel you have knowledge they didn't.

I see no problem with those that originally believed even if she herself was wrong.

If you do not believe those who are your spiritual believers then what do you believe in?

I know... those here will say the Bible. I agree.YOU DO NOT need a church, you need God/Jesus..



Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: Amo on Sun Aug 04, 2019 - 11:08:19
Ellen wrote in other places that the plan of salvation was formulated before the foundation of the Earth.  She at first wrote a false account in Early Writings and later wrote the truth.  I have to wonder how many people were influenced by the writing in Early Writings.

What DO YOU believe to be the truth?

Yes, I find it troublesome that one changes their mind after having talked of being told from an instructor.

Or were her early writings based on what she read and studied herself and not from the Instructor?

As to how many people were influenced by her early writings....

First: Does it matter?

Next: Did she teach anything that would be anti Jesus or Anti God?

If she wrote of wrong things, as she interpreted what she thought she was told and people got it wrong... SO WHAT.

As long as God/Jesus were the center of their lives what else mattered.

If folks were following her, and had properfaith within their hearts, it should not matter because I firmly believe that God would know these folks and that their heart and faith were seeking only Him/Them.

As to her stop believing in the Trinity....

Originally Methodist ( who believes) seems natural to fall away when you feel you have knowledge they didn't.

I see no problem with those that originally believed even if she herself was wrong.

If you do not believe those who are your spiritual believers then what do you believe in?

I know... those here will say the Bible. I agree.YOU DO NOT need a church, you need God/Jesus..

How do you and Beam know that EGW changed her mind? How do you know what she believed or not before the vision she shared? How does relating the details of the vision concerning events which transpired in heaven, equal EGW believing the plan of salvation was an afterthought? It does not. Presumption alone is the basis for this mindset. Presumption based upon the thoughts of an already prejudiced mind I might add, with the exact intention of accusing EGW of being a false prophet.

Sharing the vision does not equal EGW sharing her thoughts on whether the plan of salvation was an afterthought or not. She simply shared events that she was told took place. The mentality applied is equivalent to accusing Christians who preach the gospel to the effect that Christ was crucified for our salvation, means they think such was an after thought, since the event actually did transpire even though God already knew the end from the beginning. Why do you both continue to completely ignore the obvious faulty premise of this false accusation? As though God's foreknowledge means events concerning that foreknowledge have no need to happen and do not happen. This is foolishness. We are all living these events.
Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: Amo on Sun Aug 04, 2019 - 11:13:30
When backed into a corner spewing hatefulness is your only defense albeit the poorest way. 
Oh, so now her explanation is a play?   A play that happened after man had fallen.  Really a stupid way to defend what is not defendable.
And I find your head buried in the sand concerning all the proof we have that she certainly did plagiarize big time.

Now your acting like a lefty progressive. As though stating some facts is hatefulness, you forgot to add racist.

If what she described can only be a play because of God's foreknowledge, then your entire life and all existence and experience by created beings is just an act because of God's foreknowledge. Your accusation and argument is built upon extremely faulty premise.

Put up, bring it. Show us the plagiarism, don't just spew accusations.
Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: beam on Tue Aug 06, 2019 - 22:25:06
Hi Amo, There is plenty of ammunition concerning Ellen's plagiarism and the excuses abound.  Since you have already placed your head in the sand concerning all the other instances where she wrote untruths it would be a waste of my time to post her stealing from other authors. http://www.bible.ca/7-WL-exhibits-I-was-shown.htm
Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: seekingHiswisdom on Wed Aug 07, 2019 - 17:52:11
How do you and Beam know that EGW changed her mind? How do you know what she believed or not before the vision she shared? How does relating the details of the vision concerning events which transpired in heaven, equal EGW believing the plan of salvation was an afterthought? It does not. Presumption alone is the basis for this mindset. Presumption based upon the thoughts of an already prejudiced mind I might add, with the exact intention of accusing EGW of being a false prophet.

Sharing the vision does not equal EGW sharing her thoughts on whether the plan of salvation was an afterthought or not. She simply shared events that she was told took place. The mentality applied is equivalent to accusing Christians who preach the gospel to the effect that Christ was crucified for our salvation, means they think such was an after thought, since the event actually did transpire even though God already knew the end from the beginning. Why do you both continue to completely ignore the obvious faulty premise of this false accusation? As though God's foreknowledge means events concerning that foreknowledge have no need to happen and do not happen. This is foolishness. We are all living these events.

This you wrote in reply to my

Quote
    Ellen wrote in other places that the plan of salvation was formulated before the foundation of the Earth.  She at first wrote a false account in Early Writings and later wrote the truth.  I have to wonder how many people were influenced by the writing in Early Writings.

What DO YOU believe to be the truth?

Yes, I find it troublesome that one changes their mind after having talked of being told from an instructor.

Or were her early writings based on what she read and studied herself and not from the Instructor?

As to how many people were influenced by her early writings....

First: Does it matter?

Next: Did she teach anything that would be anti Jesus or Anti God?

If she wrote of wrong things, as she interpreted what she thought she was told and people got it wrong... SO WHAT.

As long as God/Jesus were the center of their lives what else mattered.

If folks were following her, and had properfaith within their hearts, it should not matter because I firmly believe that God would know these folks and that their heart and faith were seeking only Him/Them.

As to her stop believing in the Trinity....

Originally Methodist ( who believes) seems natural to fall away when you feel you have knowledge they didn't.

I see no problem with those that originally believed even if she herself was wrong.

If you do not believe those who are your spiritual believers then what do you believe in?

I know... those here will say the Bible. I agree.YOU DO NOT need a church, you need God/Jesus..       

If you will look carefully where you quoted me from you will see it was in reply to Beam. NOT my beliefs. However:

If she changed her mind after first believing an instructor told her something, then she got it wrong in the first place.

Do I know specifically what she changed her mind on. No, nut

That tells me she would be no prophet and the likelihood that her injury as a child was affecting something in her brain.

God does not make mistakes and God does not mislead people.

She was a Methodist before she was a "prophet". Before she was visited by her instructor. After such she changed .

As to her thoughts on salvation....

I have read this.



Origins of the Apparent Contradictions:


The original list of alleged contradictions was compiled by two gentlemen whom we will simply refer to as "Brothers D&D" to protect their identities (these letters do not appear in either of their real initials).  It is our hope that these two men will one day reconsider their position and we do not wish to do anything to jeopardize that.   We advise the reader to claim John 16:13 ("Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth") as you go over this list. All quotes from both Ellen White and the Bible are shown here exactly as they are on the original list.

https://whiteestate.org/legacy/issues-contradictions-html/

The 53 Questions:
1. WAS THE PLAN OF SALVATION MADE AFTER THE FALL?

 EGW: YES "The kingdom of grace was instituted immediately after the fall of man, when a plan was devised for the redemption of the guilty race" (Great Controversy, p. 347).

 BIBLE: NO    "For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you
were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, but with the
precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake" (1 Peter 1:18-20).

 BIBLE: NO    "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in
his sight" (Ephesians 1:4).

Here D&D quote Ellen White saying that the "kingdom of grace" was instituted and the plan was "devised" immediately after the fall.  

What they failed to quote was Ellen White's statements that the plan had actually existed long before that (see Desire of Ages, p. 22, third paragraph in particular):  "The plan for our redemption was not an afterthought, a plan formulated after the fall of Adam..."  And this statement in the same book, p. 147: "...every act of Christ's life on earth was in fulfillment of the plan that had existed from the days of eternity."  There are numerous statements like this in her writings.  To get a balanced view of what Ellen White really said about this issue (and in its proper context) we recommend the chapter entitled "The Plan of Redemption" in the book Patriarchs and Prophets.

The Bible has several texts like the ones listed above placing the Plan of Salvation before the creation of the world, but Revelation 13:8 is a bit ambiguous and says that Jesus was slain at the foundation of the world not before (KJV, NKJV, NIV, AMP, Weymouth, Young's, LTV).  Technically Christ was slain "from the days of eternity" was He not?  Did the prophet John make a mistake?  No.  The plan had to go into effect at the Fall of Adam and Eve, but when did Infinite Wisdom foresee sin and the need for a Savior?  From the days of eternity, of course.

(Some may point out that some versions of the Bible use "the foundation of the world" to refer to when the Lamb's Book was written as opposed to when the Lamb was slain.  However, the majority of the Bible scholars who put together the English Bible translations did not come to this conclusion.  Of the major Bible versions King James,  New King James, NIV, AMP, Weymouth, Young's, and LTV (Green) all point to "slain;" (the NIV says in the margin that it could be written the other way, and the AMP renders it both ways in the text itself).  NASB has it pointing to the "Book," with the margin stating that it could be referring to "slain."  The RSV and Darby do word it so that the "foundation" is referring to the writing in the Lamb's Book.  Yet even without this text, Ellen White's statements don't contradict anything the Bible says in this regard.  She agreed that the plan had been in existence from "the days of eternity.")

The problem here has nothing to do with Ellen White, but with our finite minds trying to grasp how a God who knows the future ever "plans" anything and when?  After all, no matter what He does, He already knew He was going to do it, so when did He really decide to do anything?  God's ways are "past finding out." (Job 9:10)  This infinite subject is too much for the human mind.  We're talking about Omniscience here.  There are many examples in the Bible where God does something, and it seems it is not what He had originally "planned" to do.  For just a small sample:

— Casting Satan out of heaven (Rev. 12:7-9).  (When was that plan "devised"?)
— God Rejecting King Saul (1 Sam. 16:1)
— The plan in heaven as to how to get King Ahab to perish at Ramothgilead (1 Kings 22:19-22).
— God deciding not to do what He originally planned to do to the evil man or nation that repents (Jer. 26:3; 18:8).
— God deciding to answer the prayers of those who persevere in their petitions (Luke 18:7,8; 11:5-9).
— God deciding to destroy the earth with a flood (Gen. 6:6).
— God allowing King Hezekiah to live an additional 15 years after telling him he was about to die (2 Kings 20:1-6).

Now, when were these plans "devised"?  God knew "from the days of eternity" exactly what He was going to do, and when He would do it.  It is hard for us to understand how God can "make" any plans while already knowing the future perfectly.  This is not a contradiction at all, but rather a subject that simply cannot be explained by (or to) mere human beings.

____________________________________________ .
It is incomplete statements that either are the truth of what she truly believed or would be misleading to those who heard assuming suce came from above.

Afterthought...........??? Never said that.  But if she had.... that does not fall in line with what is quoted about her above.

You will note that it took 2 brothers to piece this together to "explain" her.

But I will say, I just do not see her being a prophet the same way you do.

She was, however, a heck of a woman.





Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: seekingHiswisdom on Wed Aug 07, 2019 - 17:56:12
Now your acting like a lefty progressive. As though stating some facts is hatefulness, you forgot to add racist.

If what she described can only be a play because of God's foreknowledge, then your entire life and all existence and experience by created beings is just an act because of God's foreknowledge. Your accusation and argument is built upon extremely faulty premise.

Put up, bring it. Show us the plagiarism, don't just spew accusations.

Well, just because you are an anti-Trumper does not give you license to bring up the race card.

There has been nothing in these posts that would indicate that .

Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: Amo on Sat Aug 10, 2019 - 10:59:18
This you wrote in reply to my

If you will look carefully where you quoted me from you will see it was in reply to Beam. NOT my beliefs. However:

If she changed her mind after first believing an instructor told her something, then she got it wrong in the first place.

Do I know specifically what she changed her mind on. No, nut

That tells me she would be no prophet and the likelihood that her injury as a child was affecting something in her brain.

God does not make mistakes and God does not mislead people.

She was a Methodist before she was a "prophet". Before she was visited by her instructor. After such she changed .

As to her thoughts on salvation....

I have read this.



Origins of the Apparent Contradictions:


The original list of alleged contradictions was compiled by two gentlemen whom we will simply refer to as "Brothers D&D" to protect their identities (these letters do not appear in either of their real initials).  It is our hope that these two men will one day reconsider their position and we do not wish to do anything to jeopardize that.   We advise the reader to claim John 16:13 ("Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth") as you go over this list. All quotes from both Ellen White and the Bible are shown here exactly as they are on the original list.

https://whiteestate.org/legacy/issues-contradictions-html/

The 53 Questions:
1. WAS THE PLAN OF SALVATION MADE AFTER THE FALL?

 EGW: YES "The kingdom of grace was instituted immediately after the fall of man, when a plan was devised for the redemption of the guilty race" (Great Controversy, p. 347).

 BIBLE: NO    "For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you
were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, but with the
precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake" (1 Peter 1:18-20).

 BIBLE: NO    "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in
his sight" (Ephesians 1:4).

Here D&D quote Ellen White saying that the "kingdom of grace" was instituted and the plan was "devised" immediately after the fall.  

What they failed to quote was Ellen White's statements that the plan had actually existed long before that (see Desire of Ages, p. 22, third paragraph in particular):  "The plan for our redemption was not an afterthought, a plan formulated after the fall of Adam..."  And this statement in the same book, p. 147: "...every act of Christ's life on earth was in fulfillment of the plan that had existed from the days of eternity."  There are numerous statements like this in her writings.  To get a balanced view of what Ellen White really said about this issue (and in its proper context) we recommend the chapter entitled "The Plan of Redemption" in the book Patriarchs and Prophets.

The Bible has several texts like the ones listed above placing the Plan of Salvation before the creation of the world, but Revelation 13:8 is a bit ambiguous and says that Jesus was slain at the foundation of the world not before (KJV, NKJV, NIV, AMP, Weymouth, Young's, LTV).  Technically Christ was slain "from the days of eternity" was He not?  Did the prophet John make a mistake?  No.  The plan had to go into effect at the Fall of Adam and Eve, but when did Infinite Wisdom foresee sin and the need for a Savior?  From the days of eternity, of course.

(Some may point out that some versions of the Bible use "the foundation of the world" to refer to when the Lamb's Book was written as opposed to when the Lamb was slain.  However, the majority of the Bible scholars who put together the English Bible translations did not come to this conclusion.  Of the major Bible versions King James,  New King James, NIV, AMP, Weymouth, Young's, and LTV (Green) all point to "slain;" (the NIV says in the margin that it could be written the other way, and the AMP renders it both ways in the text itself).  NASB has it pointing to the "Book," with the margin stating that it could be referring to "slain."  The RSV and Darby do word it so that the "foundation" is referring to the writing in the Lamb's Book.  Yet even without this text, Ellen White's statements don't contradict anything the Bible says in this regard.  She agreed that the plan had been in existence from "the days of eternity.")

The problem here has nothing to do with Ellen White, but with our finite minds trying to grasp how a God who knows the future ever "plans" anything and when?  After all, no matter what He does, He already knew He was going to do it, so when did He really decide to do anything?  God's ways are "past finding out." (Job 9:10)  This infinite subject is too much for the human mind.  We're talking about Omniscience here.  There are many examples in the Bible where God does something, and it seems it is not what He had originally "planned" to do.  For just a small sample:

— Casting Satan out of heaven (Rev. 12:7-9).  (When was that plan "devised"?)
— God Rejecting King Saul (1 Sam. 16:1)
— The plan in heaven as to how to get King Ahab to perish at Ramothgilead (1 Kings 22:19-22).
— God deciding not to do what He originally planned to do to the evil man or nation that repents (Jer. 26:3; 18:8).
— God deciding to answer the prayers of those who persevere in their petitions (Luke 18:7,8; 11:5-9).
— God deciding to destroy the earth with a flood (Gen. 6:6).
— God allowing King Hezekiah to live an additional 15 years after telling him he was about to die (2 Kings 20:1-6).

Now, when were these plans "devised"?  God knew "from the days of eternity" exactly what He was going to do, and when He would do it.  It is hard for us to understand how God can "make" any plans while already knowing the future perfectly.  This is not a contradiction at all, but rather a subject that simply cannot be explained by (or to) mere human beings.

____________________________________________ .
It is incomplete statements that either are the truth of what she truly believed or would be misleading to those who heard assuming suce came from above.

Afterthought...........??? Never said that.  But if she had.... that does not fall in line with what is quoted about her above.

You will note that it took 2 brothers to piece this together to "explain" her.

But I will say, I just do not see her being a prophet the same way you do.

She was, however, a heck of a woman.

My point was simple. EGW sharing the details of a vision regarding events transpiring in heaven in relation to humanities salvation, does not equal her giving an account of what she believed concerning the time at which this plan was conceived. She clearly and concisely stated her beliefs regarding the same in other places to the effect that the plan was from eternity. The presumption that she had to change her mind regarding the same is based upon the presumption that she ever believed that the plan of salvation was an afterthought. She never said such a thing, nor was she suggesting such a thing in sharing her vision. This presumption is foisted upon her by those who wish her to be a false prophet. It is created in their own minds, with no real substance. Nevertheless, prophets most certainly can be and have been wrong before when speaking and or acting according to their own understanding, and have been corrected. They are not all knowing as God is, and can and do learn.
Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: Amo on Sat Aug 10, 2019 - 11:05:23
Well, just because you are an anti-Trumper does not give you license to bring up the race card.

There has been nothing in these posts that would indicate that .

I was being sarcastic. I am not a anti-Trumper thumper, or lefty progressive race card dealer.
Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: seekingHiswisdom on Sat Aug 10, 2019 - 20:25:46
I was being sarcastic. I am not a anti-Trumper thumper, or lefty progressive race card dealer.

 ::tippinghat:: Glad to hear it.
Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: Amo on Sun Aug 25, 2019 - 20:21:35
Hi Amo, There is plenty of ammunition concerning Ellen's plagiarism and the excuses abound.  Since you have already placed your head in the sand concerning all the other instances where she wrote untruths it would be a waste of my time to post her stealing from other authors. [url]http://www.bible.ca/7-WL-exhibits-I-was-shown.htm[/url]


https://whiteestate.org/legacy/issues-whitelie-html/

I have not placed my head in the sand concerning your false accusations against EGW. I have, am now, and will continue to refute your false claims. Since your latest is just the provision of a link making your accusations for you, I have respond in like manner with a link refuting the same.
Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: 4WD on Mon Aug 26, 2019 - 05:33:48
This presumption is foisted upon her by those who wish her to be a false prophet.
If she claims to be a prophet, and she does/did even if not directly, then she is at best a false prophet.
Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: Amo on Mon Aug 26, 2019 - 22:26:00
If she claims to be a prophet, and she does/did even if not directly, then she is at best a false prophet.

So, no more gift of prophecy among God's people? When do you believe the started?
Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: beam on Thu Aug 29, 2019 - 10:42:34
https://whiteestate.org/legacy/issues-whitelie-html/

I have not placed my head in the sand concerning your false accusations against EGW. I have, am now, and will continue to refute your false claims. Since your latest is just the provision of a link making your accusations for you, I have respond in like manner with a link refuting the same.
What would you expect the White Estate to say Amo?  A person that is programmed to believe something is not likely to see anyother point of view.
Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: Amo on Sat Aug 31, 2019 - 14:39:32
What would you expect the White Estate to say Amo?  A person that is programmed to believe something is not likely to see anyother point of view.

Is everyone who disagrees with you or the anti-EGW's of the link you provided, necessarily programmed? Who programmed you for forty years? Who deprogrammed you?
Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: beam on Sat Sep 07, 2019 - 08:45:58
Hi Amo, I give all the praise to the Holy Spirit for prompting me to start studying scripture instead of allowing the SDA prophet to tell me what is true.  There is a vast difference you know.  The prophet had me believing that I had to abide by the ministry of death, the 10 commandments written in stone.  2Cor3:6-11.   Had I realized that the 10 are not Christian's guide and were only for the guidance of Israel and ended at the Cross along with all of the laws of the Sinai covenant I would not have submitted myself to 40 years of SDA programming. 

I now know that I am not saved by keeping a day that I was never able to keep in the first place.  The prophet wrote:  It means eternal salvation to keep the Sabbath holy unto the Lord. God says: "Them that honor Me I will honor." {6T 356.4}

I now know that the SDA church teaches that one must tithe or lose their salvation is nothing but a lie.   Tithing was a law contained in the Sinai covenant and only included Israelites that raised livestock and or crops.  Jesus would not have been a tithe payer under the laws of the Sinai covenant.  And the fact is that Christians are not under the laws of the Sinai covenant.   The prophet wrote: The man who will rob God is cultivating traits of character that will cut him off from admittance into the family of God above. (6T 391.1)

    Those who have used the  tithe  money to supply the common necessities of the house of God, have taken the money that should go to sustain ministers in doing His work, in preparing the way for Christ's second appearing. Just as surely as you do this work, you misapply the resources which God has told you to retain in His treasure house, that it may be full, to be used in His service. This work is something of which all who have taken a part in should be ashamed. They have used their influence to withdraw from God's treasury a fund that is consecrated to a sacred purpose. From those who do this, the blessing of the Lord will be removed. The  tithe  money must be kept sacred. . . . {1MR 183.1}
 

I now know that the SDA belief in the Investigative Judgement is a complete farce.  Jesus our all-knowing God is sitting in a room and has been for 175 years going over every name to see if they are able to be saved????  I was told to never say I am saved and you know something, maybe I wasn't because I never proclaimed the promises God has given us throughout the Holy Writ.   Actually, I knew I wasn't saved because I was never able to "keep" the Sabbath.  Isaiah 58.

I now know that Jesus will never forsake me and leave me without His grace as the prophet has written will happen before He returns.  Matthew 28:20
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.  AMEN!

I now know that it is a terrible belief that it is alright to abort babies as the SDA church believes.

I now know that the SDA prophet plagiarized in many parts of her writings and that her visions were not from God.  Many of those visions have been made known on the SDA forum and, of course, tried to be refuted by the faithful.

Yep Amo, I am now programmed with the power Jesus, of the Holy Spirit and scripture.
   
Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen. Jude 24-25

Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: Amo on Sat Sep 07, 2019 - 10:16:04
Hi Amo, I give all the praise to the Holy Spirit for prompting me to start studying scripture instead of allowing the SDA prophet to tell me what is true.  There is a vast difference you know.  The prophet had me believing that I had to abide by the ministry of death, the 10 commandments written in stone.  2Cor3:6-11.   Had I realized that the 10 are not Christian's guide and were only for the guidance of Israel and ended at the Cross along with all of the laws of the Sinai covenant I would not have submitted myself to 40 years of SDA programming. 

I now know that I am not saved by keeping a day that I was never able to keep in the first place.  The prophet wrote:  It means eternal salvation to keep the Sabbath holy unto the Lord. God says: "Them that honor Me I will honor." {6T 356.4}

I now know that the SDA church teaches that one must tithe or lose their salvation is nothing but a lie.   Tithing was a law contained in the Sinai covenant and only included Israelites that raised livestock and or crops.  Jesus would not have been a tithe payer under the laws of the Sinai covenant.  And the fact is that Christians are not under the laws of the Sinai covenant.   The prophet wrote: The man who will rob God is cultivating traits of character that will cut him off from admittance into the family of God above. (6T 391.1)

    Those who have used the  tithe  money to supply the common necessities of the house of God, have taken the money that should go to sustain ministers in doing His work, in preparing the way for Christ's second appearing. Just as surely as you do this work, you misapply the resources which God has told you to retain in His treasure house, that it may be full, to be used in His service. This work is something of which all who have taken a part in should be ashamed. They have used their influence to withdraw from God's treasury a fund that is consecrated to a sacred purpose. From those who do this, the blessing of the Lord will be removed. The  tithe  money must be kept sacred. . . . {1MR 183.1}
 

I now know that the SDA belief in the Investigative Judgement is a complete farce.  Jesus our all-knowing God is sitting in a room and has been for 175 years going over every name to see if they are able to be saved????  I was told to never say I am saved and you know something, maybe I wasn't because I never proclaimed the promises God has given us throughout the Holy Writ.   Actually, I knew I wasn't saved because I was never able to "keep" the Sabbath.  Isaiah 58.

I now know that Jesus will never forsake me and leave me without His grace as the prophet has written will happen before He returns.  Matthew 28:20
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.  AMEN!

I now know that it is a terrible belief that it is alright to abort babies as the SDA church believes.

I now know that the SDA prophet plagiarized in many parts of her writings and that her visions were not from God.  Many of those visions have been made known on the SDA forum and, of course, tried to be refuted by the faithful.

Yep Amo, I am now programmed with the power Jesus, of the Holy Spirit and scripture.
   
Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen. Jude 24-25

I've been an SDA for about 39 years now, and I have never believed the rubbish you proclaimed above. Seems to me, you have been deceived more than once.
Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: beam on Sat Sep 07, 2019 - 22:05:58
I've been an SDA for about 39 years now, and I have never believed the rubbish you proclaimed above. Seems to me, you have been deceived more than once.
It is true Amo.  I am sorry to break the news to you.  Deep in your heart you know it is not rubbish.  It is very hard to learn the real truth after being in what we thought was the truth.    People kept telling me until I turned them off and they let me go my own way.  That is how it is my friend.
Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: Amo on Fri Sep 13, 2019 - 11:01:21
It is true Amo.  I am sorry to break the news to you.  Deep in your heart you know it is not rubbish.  It is very hard to learn the real truth after being in what we thought was the truth.    People kept telling me until I turned them off and they let me go my own way.  That is how it is my friend.

That is how it is for short sighted, self centered individuals who think their experience defines the experience of all others. You have no idea how it is for anyone other than yourself. That is what a relationship with God is all about, He knows and does completely understand as no other can for each of us. Being able to relate and share, is not at all knowing how it actually is for another. This is God's privilege alone. You do not know how it is or was for me, or anyone else for that matter. Thinking you do in simple accordance with your own experience, leads nowhere, and absolutely is no standard of truth at all.

I know it to be rubbish, and I have never believed the rubbish. I'm sorry you apparently did, and then were deceived into believing all other SDA's were and are just like you. You had and still have wrong ideas about SDA and biblical teaching. When you realized this, instead of admitting of it, you just trashed all of it according to those wrong ideas as though everyone else had them as well. At least that is what I perceive of your experience, but who am I. I certainly know that we have had very different experiences as SDA's, come to very different conclusions regarding what SDA teaching actually is, and what the bible actually teaches.
Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: beam on Fri Sep 20, 2019 - 07:34:38
Hi Amo, you are right, I don't know everyone's experience.  I have many Adventist friends and what they tell me and what I am able to observe most do have doubts about the "special" beliefs.   I have a daughter that is still a member although she knows their prophet was not what the church has built her up to be.   She had 16 years of SDA training  Her whole life revolves around the church since she is a teacher in the system and her husband is a life long SDA.    Both of her adult children have left Adventism and not because of rebellion.  They left because they could see what they were taught did not meet what they now believe scripture teaches.   

What I reveal in my posts are not just my ideas.  Former Adventists want Adventists to know the other side of the story.  We do have an agenda to spread the Good News to our Adventist friends and families we have left behind.  There are many stories of success and praise from those who chose to take the challenge and deep study the belief system.   Former Adventist's produce a magazine called Proclamation which has many thought-provoking articles.   It is free for the asking.
Title: Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
Post by: Amo on Sat Sep 21, 2019 - 12:02:37
Hi Amo, you are right, I don't know everyone's experience.  I have many Adventist friends and what they tell me and what I am able to observe most do have doubts about the "special" beliefs.   I have a daughter that is still a member although she knows their prophet was not what the church has built her up to be.   She had 16 years of SDA training  Her whole life revolves around the church since she is a teacher in the system and her husband is a life long SDA.    Both of her adult children have left Adventism and not because of rebellion.  They left because they could see what they were taught did not meet what they now believe scripture teaches.   

What I reveal in my posts are not just my ideas.  Former Adventists want Adventists to know the other side of the story.  We do have an agenda to spread the Good News to our Adventist friends and families we have left behind.  There are many stories of success and praise from those who chose to take the challenge and deep study the belief system.   Former Adventist's produce a magazine called Proclamation which has many thought-provoking articles.   It is free for the asking.

Everyone is of course entitled to believe as they wish. I have engaged in much dialogue and debate with many anti SDA's throughout the years. I find their arguments and accusations to be very weak at best. Most are built upon faulty premise, or presumption. None have convinced me that their stance is more biblical than that of SDA's. I've been to former SDA pages, but none of them provide opportunity to refute their false claims, as I see it. Does Proclamation have an internet site? Do they allow for any response to their accusations? Probably not. If so, please share the link, I would be happy to read and respond to their articles.