Author Topic: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs  (Read 1468 times)

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Offline beam

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Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
« on: Sat Jun 15, 2019 - 09:36:53 »
SDAs like to dismiss Ellen's writing concerning photographs as being the cost back then.  The fact is that Ellen's angel told her that photographs are IDOLS and money should not be used to buy those idols.   Set aside the cost and consider the fact that the angel called the pictures idols.

During the night I was sorely distressed. A great burden rested upon me. I had been pleading with God to work in behalf of His people. My attention was called to the money which they have invested in photographs. I was taken from house to house, through the homes of our people, and as I went from room to room, my Instructor said, “Behold the idols which have accumulated!” {RH September 10, 1901, par. 1}

As I visited the homes of our people and our schools, I see that all the available space on tables, what-nots, and mantelpieces is filled up with photographs. On the right hand and on the left are seen the pictures of human faces. God desires this order of things to be changed. Were Christ on earth, He would say, “Take these things hence.” I have been instructed that these pictures are as so many idols, taking up the time and thought which should be sacredly devoted to God. {RH September 10, 1901, par. 2}
These photographs cost money. Is it consistent for us, knowing the work that is to be done at this time, to spend God’s money in producing pictures of our own faces and the faces of our friends? Should not every dollar that we can spare be used in the upbuilding of the cause of God? These pictures take money that should be sacredly devoted to God’s service; and they divert the mind from the truths of God’s word. {RH September 10, 1901, par. 3}
This making and exchanging photographs is a species of idolatry. Satan is doing all he can to eclipse heaven from our view. Let us not help him by making picture-idols. We need to reach a higher standard than these human faces suggest. The Lord says, “Thou shalt have no other gods before me.” Those who claim to believe in Christ need to realize that they are to reflect His image. It is His likeness that is to be kept before the mind. The words that are spoken are to be freighted with heavenly inspiration.
{RH September 10, 1901, par. 4}

Why have SDAs completely ignore Ellen's "instructor"?   Why are the SDA magazines full of these idols?   

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Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
« on: Sat Jun 15, 2019 - 09:36:53 »

Offline Amo

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Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
« Reply #1 on: Sat Jun 15, 2019 - 11:37:33 »
This again?

Offline beam

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Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
« Reply #2 on: Sat Jun 15, 2019 - 13:49:25 »
I realize you would like to hide it under a barrel.

Offline Amo

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Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
« Reply #3 on: Sat Jun 15, 2019 - 19:09:37 »
It has already been addressed. Broken record Beam would like to go over it again though. OK.

Quote
MESSAGES TO YOUNG PEOPLE, PAGE 316

Chapter 105—Self-gratification


As I visit the homes of our people and our schools, I see that all the available space on tables, what-nots, and mantelpieces is filled up with photographs. On the right hand and on the left are seen the pictures of human faces. God desires this order of things to be changed. Were Christ on earth, He would say, “Take these things hence.” I have been instructed that these pictures are as so many idols, taking up the time and thought which should be sacredly devoted to God.

These photographs cost money. Is it consistent for us, knowing the work that is to be done at this time, to spend God's money in producing pictures of our own faces and the faces of our friends? Should not every dollar that we can spare be used in the upbuilding of the cause of God? These pictures take money that should be sacredly devoted to God's service; and they divert the mind from the truths of God's Word.

A Species of Idolatry

This making and exchanging photographs is a species of idolatry. Satan is doing all he can to eclipse heaven from our view. Let us not help him by making picture-idols. We need to reach a higher standard than these human faces suggest. The Lord says, “Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.” Those who claim to believe in Christ need to realize that they are to reflect His image. It is His likeness that is to be kept before the mind. The words that are spoken are to be freighted with heavenly inspiration....

First Things First

Those who have taken part in the solemn rite of baptism have pledged themselves to seek for those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God; pledged themselves to labor earnestly for the salvation of sinners. God asks those who take His name, How are you using the powers that have been redeemed by the death of My Son? Are you doing all in your power to rise to a greater height in spiritual understanding? Are you adjusting your interests and actions in harmony with the momentous claims of eternity?

Let there be a reformation among the people of God. “Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.” Those upon whom the Lord has placed the burden of His work are struggling to proclaim the message, that souls perishing in ignorance may be warned. Can you not, by self-denial, do something to help them in their work? Arouse, and show by your unselfish zeal and earnestness that you are converted.

Every dollar is required in the work of saving souls. The money invested by the professed people of God in getting pictures made of human faces would support several missionaries in the field. Many small streams, when put together, swell into a large river. We embezzle our Lord's goods when we use for selfish pleasure the means which should be used to proclaim the last message of warning.

If you spend the Lord's money for self-gratification, how can you expect Him to continue to bestow His goods on you? How does the Master regard those who selfishly invest His money in photographs? That very money could have been used to purchase reading matter to send to those in the darkness of ignorance.

The truth that God has given us must be heralded to the world. We have been given the privilege of doing this work. We are to sow the seed of truth beside all waters. The Lord calls upon us to practice self-denial and self-sacrifice. The gospel demands entire consecration. The necessities of the cause demand all that we can give. Our indulgence in photographs has been a selfish gratification on our part, which bears silent witness against us. By this indulgence a large amount of wood, hay, and stubble has been brought to the foundation, to be consumed by the fires of the last day.


http://www.phototree.com/article_worth.htm

Quote
Cost of Photos in the 1800s - In Today's Value.

by Gary W. Clark

What Was the Real Cost of Your Ancestors' Photos?

Early photographs were very expensive; mostly due to high material costs, and few photographers with the required expertise.

For example, the daguerreotype, announced publicly in 1839, was a copper sheet, plated with silver, polished meticulously, then processed with a variety of chemicals. All of that even before the picture was taken.

Successive processes including the ambrotype, tintype, then paper photographs brought the price of a photograph down dramatically.

Economics of our Ancestors

The price of a photograph is part of our ancestor's economics. Many of us wonder why we do not have photographs of some ancestors. There may be many reasons: Photographs were passed to other branches of your tree, or the photos were lost or destroyed by natural disasters or fires. However, an overall reason for lack of photos may be the scarcity of them in the first place.

Many people, and certainly the pioneers of the 19th century lived off what they could produce from the land. Actual currency may have been very scarce for them. A frivolous photograph purchase would not take precedent over a bag of flour or beans to help feed the family. The ten dollar bill may have repesented months of expenses.

Published Photograph Prices

Photo prices from the 1800s are easy to track. They were advertised in newspapers, broadsides, and even on the back of the photographs themselves. PhotoTree has many examples of these, and shares the present value with you.

We have manually calculated our own present-day costs with cost-of-living indexes from various sources. Much to our delight, a website called Measuring Worth provides a handy calculator that allows you to enter an Initial Year, Initial Amount, and Desired Year; it then will calculate the present value of the initial amount. We have checked their calculated results against other indexes and the results are in a plausible range.

In addition to this simple calculator, the website has a wealth of information about historical costs, plus a calculator for the U.K. While much of it will appeal to the economist or accountants among you, it is written and presented in a very useful manner for all of us.


Sample Photograph Costs

Photo Type                    Original Cost                            Present Value
Daguerreotype: 1842          $2.50 - 6.00                           $81.20 - 195.00

Offline piecrust

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Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
« Reply #4 on: Sat Jun 15, 2019 - 19:37:01 »
Ellen had photographs taken of herself.  Did that mean she should be worshipped?   ::smile::

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Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
« Reply #4 on: Sat Jun 15, 2019 - 19:37:01 »



Offline Amo

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Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
« Reply #5 on: Sat Jun 15, 2019 - 19:41:28 »
Ellen had photographs taken of herself.  Did that mean she should be worshipped?   ::smile::

I don't know if she did. The general idea was not to waste to much time and money on self. Today's selfy society is a good example of where such can lead.

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Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
« Reply #6 on: Sat Jun 15, 2019 - 20:25:57 »
I don't know if she did. The general idea was not to waste to much time and money on self. Today's selfy society is a good example of where such can lead.


Here ya go. Now you have a face to go with the name.



A previously unknown photograph of Adventist Church co-founder Ellen G. White has surfaced among the aging documents of an Adventist physician who died in California in 1966.

The 1905 photo — which shows White walking outdoors with her son William and his wife, May — is the first new picture of White to turn up in decades, and its discovery is especially thrilling for White scholars because it provides a rare glimpse into her everyday life.

https://www.adventistreview.org/church-news/previously-unknown-photo-of-ellen-white-found

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Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
« Reply #7 on: Sat Jun 15, 2019 - 20:45:13 »
And here are James and Ellen White in younger years.




Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
« Reply #8 on: Sat Jun 15, 2019 - 22:38:17 »
And here are James and Ellen White in younger years.




One of the original American false teachers.

Offline current occupant2

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Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
« Reply #9 on: Sat Jun 15, 2019 - 23:13:14 »
It has already been addressed. Broken record Beam would like to go over it again though. OK.

http://www.phototree.com/article_worth.htm


Yes, SDA’s and their supporters continue to obfuscate the issue surrounding Ellen’s conflicting advice and practice concerning photographs. 


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Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
« Reply #10 on: Sat Jun 15, 2019 - 23:20:44 »
I don't know if she did. The general idea was not to waste to much time and money on self. Today's selfy society is a good example of where such can lead.

You are defending someone and you don’t even know all sides of the issue concerning their practice. 

Yes, it is on record that Ellen spoke of getting photographed and having photographs. 

You have already documented the extra expense of photographs back then - money that she wanted given to her pet projects of Adventism. 

As for time - yes photographs take much time - way more time than they do now and the cost more then than they do now in dollars that are adjusted for inflation. 

Your ‘iprophet’ is a joke. 

Offline beam

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Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
« Reply #11 on: Sun Jun 16, 2019 - 00:04:05 »
You are defending someone and you don’t even know all sides of the issue concerning their practice. 

Yes, it is on record that Ellen spoke of getting photographed and having photographs. 

You have already documented the extra expense of photographs back then - money that she wanted given to her pet projects of Adventism. 

As for time - yes photographs take much time - way more time than they do now and the cost more then than they do now in dollars that are adjusted for inflation. 

Your ‘iprophet’ is a joke.
Money and time are two things, but the real issue is her "instructor" told her photographs are IDOLS.  This is just another example of the two sides of Ellen. 

The flock was not to buy bicycles because they cost too much, but Ellen spent money at Dr Jackson getting her boys heads measured.  This voodoo was called phrenology and we know now it was a farce.  Ellen's angel must have been on vacation.

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Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
« Reply #12 on: Sun Jun 16, 2019 - 11:06:47 »
Yes, there are photos of EGW. Does that mean she contradicted her own advice? No, it does not. We don't know if she had them taken or they were taken by others. Nor did she condemn photos altogether, but rather wasting time and money on such with self in mind over God. Those who bring forth the accusation that she hypocritically practiced that which she preached against for others, will stand beside her in judgment and either receive commendation for pointing out truth, or condemnation for bearing false witness. So be it. Those who have twisted her words or the words of any other, will stand in judgment as liars. So be it. May God judge between us all, as He is and will.
« Last Edit: Sun Jun 16, 2019 - 11:21:11 by Amo »

Offline Amo

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Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
« Reply #13 on: Sun Jun 16, 2019 - 11:10:45 »
You are defending someone and you don’t even know all sides of the issue concerning their practice. 

Yes, it is on record that Ellen spoke of getting photographed and having photographs. 

You have already documented the extra expense of photographs back then - money that she wanted given to her pet projects of Adventism. 

As for time - yes photographs take much time - way more time than they do now and the cost more then than they do now in dollars that are adjusted for inflation. 

Your ‘iprophet’ is a joke.

Yes of course, because you do no all sides of the issues, practice, and motives of EGW, don't you? Even if she were a joke, correct or not, you will stand condemned before God for calling anyone our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ died for a joke.

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Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
« Reply #14 on: Sun Jun 16, 2019 - 11:20:04 »
Yes, SDA’s and their supporters continue to obfuscate the issue surrounding Ellen’s conflicting advice and practice concerning photographs.

Yes of course, co2 said so. Showing the very high price of photos during EGW's day when one of the problems EGW had with photos was their high cost, is obfuscating the issue. Stop being such a lefty progressive co2, by condemning facts as evil plots. Lefties are so confused by facts because what they choose to believe is not based upon them. To the contrary, their own testimony is passed off as indisputable truth, apart from the facts.
« Last Edit: Sun Jun 16, 2019 - 11:22:31 by Amo »

Offline Amo

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Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
« Reply #15 on: Sun Jun 16, 2019 - 11:25:49 »
Money and time are two things, but the real issue is her "instructor" told her photographs are IDOLS.  This is just another example of the two sides of Ellen. 

The flock was not to buy bicycles because they cost too much, but Ellen spent money at Dr Jackson getting her boys heads measured.  This voodoo was called phrenology and we know now it was a farce.  Ellen's angel must have been on vacation.

Beam, another self proclaimed expert of the issues, practice, and motives of EGW. Your reward or condemnation awaits you for such, just like the rest of us.

Offline piecrust

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Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
« Reply #16 on: Sun Jun 16, 2019 - 22:10:50 »
Beam, another self proclaimed expert of the issues, practice, and motives of EGW. Your reward or condemnation awaits you for such, just like the rest of us.

Why do you need to defend her?

Offline beam

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Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
« Reply #17 on: Mon Jun 17, 2019 - 21:55:21 »
Hi Amo, you are skirting the point, but we would expect that of you now wouldn't we?    The fact is that Ellen's "instructor" said that photos ARE idols.  Don't skirt the main fact of my opening statement.


"SDAs like to dismiss Ellen's writing concerning photographs as being the cost back then.  The fact is that Ellen's angel told her that photographs are IDOLS and money should not be used to buy those idols.   Set aside the cost and consider the fact that the angel called the pictures idols."

Do you have any of those idols in your home?   Just because they cost less today doesn't change the fact that they are idols.  But who pays any attention to the revered prophet?
« Last Edit: Mon Jun 17, 2019 - 21:59:33 by beam »

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Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
« Reply #18 on: Sat Jun 22, 2019 - 09:54:46 »
Why do you need to defend her?

Why do you need to attack her? I am only addressing the attacks. So many people think they know her so very well as to continually judge her motives and heart, things which only God knows about any of us. So what is concrete, but her writings themselves, and perhaps societal differences and views she addressed which are no longer the same today for whatever reasons. Such of course must be considered when addressing her writings and ideas.

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Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
« Reply #19 on: Sat Jun 22, 2019 - 10:29:29 »
Hi Amo, you are skirting the point, but we would expect that of you now wouldn't we?    The fact is that Ellen's "instructor" said that photos ARE idols.  Don't skirt the main fact of my opening statement.


"SDAs like to dismiss Ellen's writing concerning photographs as being the cost back then.  The fact is that Ellen's angel told her that photographs are IDOLS and money should not be used to buy those idols.   Set aside the cost and consider the fact that the angel called the pictures idols."

Do you have any of those idols in your home?   Just because they cost less today doesn't change the fact that they are idols.  But who pays any attention to the revered prophet?


How much time and money one is willing to spend upon any particular thing, is intricately connected to whether they are making an idol or not out of that particular thing or not. You do understand simple basic principles of idolatry Beam, do you not? You do know don't you, that idols are not just carved images or statues, do you not? So, how in your apparent great wisdom which has given you the ability to judge the motives and heart of EGW, do you determine what is idolatry, and what is not? Maybe the following links addressing a more modern form of what EGW was addressing, can shed some light.

https://www.gotquestions.org/selfie-culture.html

http://getyouranswersonline.com/onewebmedia/Present%20Day%20Idols%20%20-%20Selfies.pdf

http://www.jeremyawalker.com/uncategorized/201442is-the-selfie-a-form-of-idolatry-html/

https://biblereasons.com/idolatry/

http://www.edsteeleworship.com/2017/06/selfies-and-worship.html

https://guardianlv.com/2014/04/selfies-cause-narcissism-mental-illness-addiction-and-suicide/

The list goes on and on. Just type in selfies and idol worship in your search engine and observe. We've already been through this though. You are determined to prove EGW a false prophet. So be it. Condemnation or reward from God awaits you for the same. 


Offline beam

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Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
« Reply #20 on: Sat Jun 22, 2019 - 19:23:14 »
How much time and money one is willing to spend upon any particular thing, is intricately connected to whether they are making an idol or not out of that particular thing or not. You do understand simple basic principles of idolatry Beam, do you not? You do know don't you, that idols are not just carved images or statues, do you not? So, how in your apparent great wisdom which has given you the ability to judge the motives and heart of EGW, do you determine what is idolatry, and what is not? Maybe the following links addressing a more modern form of what EGW was addressing, can shed some light.

https://www.gotquestions.org/selfie-culture.html

http://getyouranswersonline.com/onewebmedia/Present%20Day%20Idols%20%20-%20Selfies.pdf

http://www.jeremyawalker.com/uncategorized/201442is-the-selfie-a-form-of-idolatry-html/


http://www.edsteeleworship.com/2017/06/selfies-and-worship.html

https://guardianlv.com/2014/04/selfies-cause-narcissism-mental-illness-addiction-and-suicide/

The list goes on and on. Just type in selfies and idol worship in your search engine and observe. We've already been through this though. You are determined to prove EGW a false prophet. So be it. Condemnation or reward from God awaits you for the same.
Amo, Amo, You will do anything to make the prophet a reality.  It was Ellen's instructor that called photographs Idols.  I merely quoted the words of the prophet.  Yes, many things can be idols, I agree with you.  In the case of photographs having them in ones' home would be having idols setting around.  if you really believe the prophet you will clear your home of all those idols.

I really do not have to judge the motives of Ellen.  It is as clear as the nose on my face that she was a farce and didn't heed most of what she tried to have her flock adhere.

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Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
« Reply #21 on: Mon Jun 24, 2019 - 23:55:40 »
I don't know if she did. The general idea was not to waste to much time and money on self. Today's selfy society is a good example of where such can lead.

You obviously are not aware of what is freely available......pictures of ellen.

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Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
« Reply #22 on: Tue Jun 25, 2019 - 20:03:06 »
Amo, Amo, You will do anything to make the prophet a reality.  It was Ellen's instructor that called photographs Idols.  I merely quoted the words of the prophet.  Yes, many things can be idols, I agree with you.  In the case of photographs having them in ones' home would be having idols setting around.  if you really believe the prophet you will clear your home of all those idols.

I really do not have to judge the motives of Ellen.  It is as clear as the nose on my face that she was a farce and didn't heed most of what she tried to have her flock adhere.

Beam, Beam, You will do anything to make the prophet false. Remember, I'm only responding to your accusations, you are the one initiating all of this. I just don't find your accusations very impressive or enlightened.  Will you now deny that all the Christians associating selfies with idolatry today is based upon the same principle EGW was addressing in her day? Are they all evil false prophets? I won't clear my home of anything according to your warped perceptions and accusations.


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Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
« Reply #23 on: Tue Jun 25, 2019 - 20:04:35 »
You obviously are not aware of what is freely available......pictures of ellen.

Please do enlighten me, and provide links to the numerous photos EGW had taken of herself to decorate her house with.

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Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
« Reply #24 on: Wed Jun 26, 2019 - 03:57:12 »
Please do enlighten me, and provide links to the numerous photos EGW had taken of herself to decorate her house with.

What she did with them I have no idea.  Some of those photos are in this thread.  Some of them graced her literature no doubt.  But they exist.  There are two gracing the Wikipedia entry about her.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellen_G._White


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Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
« Reply #25 on: Thu Jun 27, 2019 - 08:29:03 »
Beam, Beam, You will do anything to make the prophet false. Remember, I'm only responding to your accusations, you are the one initiating all of this. I just don't find your accusations very impressive or enlightened.  Will you now deny that all the Christians associating selfies with idolatry today is based upon the same principle EGW was addressing in her day? Are they all evil false prophets? I won't clear my home of anything according to your warped perceptions and accusations.
Your denial and defiance just once again proves that Adventistspick and choose what they want to believe concerning the writings of Ellen White.

I think if you really took her writings seriously you would clear your house of all what her "instructor" called idols.  You blame me for bringing up a fact and belittle me by writing that my comments are accusations.  How could that be Amo?  I only pasted what Ellen wrote.  Take it or leave it.  You are the one who puts your eggs in her basket.  You are the one who lets her writings dictate many of the things you do and don't do.

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Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
« Reply #26 on: Sat Jun 29, 2019 - 12:04:19 »
What she did with them I have no idea.  Some of those photos are in this thread.  Some of them graced her literature no doubt.  But they exist.  There are two gracing the Wikipedia entry about her.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellen_G._White

I guess when you are one of the most proliferate writers of all time, and travel the world lecturing, a lot of people end up taking your picture. The question is, did she have photos taken of herself and hang them all over her house? This is what she had a problem with, the time and money connected to doing the same. Although, I'm sure she would have something to say about todays selfies society, and sending pictures of yourself to everyone out there as well.

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Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
« Reply #27 on: Sat Jun 29, 2019 - 12:34:32 »
Your denial and defiance just once again proves that Adventistspick and choose what they want to believe concerning the writings of Ellen White.

I think if you really took her writings seriously you would clear your house of all what her "instructor" called idols.  You blame me for bringing up a fact and belittle me by writing that my comments are accusations.  How could that be Amo?  I only pasted what Ellen wrote.  Take it or leave it.  You are the one who puts your eggs in her basket.  You are the one who lets her writings dictate many of the things you do and don't do.

My refutation of your false insinuations and accusations are just that. They mean nothing you suggest they mean simply because you have said so. Just as your false insinuations and accusations against EGW mean nothing you suggest but in your own mind. You simply consider yourself a better judge of her character and intent than others, who themselves disagree with you and consider their judgment better than yours. God will determine her true character and intent for all disputers of the same when He returns.

The love of self above God is most certainly the base of the sin problem altogether. When photographs first came out and were very costly, spending a great deal of time taking them and money purchasing them, could obviously be an indication of such sinful selfish tendency. Today, 150 years later, times are very different. Almost anyone can take photos at any time at very little to no cost with their phones. Nevertheless, even todays Christians and others have realized the sinful and negative impacts of our selfies society. Are you denying that love of self above God is the root of sin, and can be manifested in may ways, including spending a great deal of time and money of pictures of ones self? Is this your superior wisdom that you wish to share?

The principle shared by EGW was true then and still remains true today, obsession with self in any form including spending a great deal of time and money on taking and displaying photos of ones self, is sinful. Pictures most certainly can be made into idols. Do you deny this?

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Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
« Reply #28 on: Sun Jun 30, 2019 - 00:51:20 »
I guess when you are one of the most proliferate writers of all time, and travel the world lecturing, a lot of people end up taking your picture. The question is, did she have photos taken of herself and hang them all over her house? This is what she had a problem with, the time and money connected to doing the same. Although, I'm sure she would have something to say about todays selfies society, and sending pictures of yourself to everyone out there as well.

You probably mean prolific.  But this means she is above the commandments she gave other people?  She SAT for photographs, she even SAT for at least one painting.  These were not snapshots, taking a photo back then was a production.

What she did with them was immaterial, she knew very well what she was doing.  Time and money....she spent both of photographs that she called idols.

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Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
« Reply #29 on: Sun Jun 30, 2019 - 07:51:02 »
Amen piecrust.

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Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
« Reply #30 on: Sun Jun 30, 2019 - 10:44:53 »
You probably mean prolific.  But this means she is above the commandments she gave other people?  She SAT for photographs, she even SAT for at least one painting.  These were not snapshots, taking a photo back then was a production.

What she did with them was immaterial, she knew very well what she was doing.  Time and money....she spent both of photographs that she called idols.

Either or is just fine. Her writings were numerous, published rapidly, spread around the world, and translated into many different languages. They also became abundant and produced much fruit.

You and your buddy Beam are choosing to center in on photographs as the idol, instead of individuals making them idols, which is what EGW addressed. You do this because of your personal agenda to attack and malign her character. If she had a thing specifically for photographs perhaps you would have a point, but she applied the same principle to far more than just photos. You ignore this, or more over don't even know about it because you don't care, you are simply in attack mode and have no regard for what the person you are attacking was really trying to convey to those she was addressing. Observe the following and understand the principle or underlying spiritual application of what EGW was addressing, not just your prejudiced immediate thoughts as anti-EGW antagonists.

Quote
We Shall Not Serve Any Graven Images, February 20

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them. Exodus 20:4, 5.
Our Creator demands our supreme devotion, our first allegiance. Anything which tends to abate our love for God, or to interfere with the service due Him, becomes thereby an idol. With some their lands, their houses, their merchandise, are the idols. Business enterprises are prosecuted with zeal and energy, while the service of God is made a secondary consideration. Family worship is neglected, secret prayer forgotten. Many claim to deal justly with their fellow-men, and seem to feel that in so doing they discharge their whole duty. But it is not enough to keep the last six commandments of the Decalogue. We are to love the Lord our God with all the heart. Nothing short of obedience to every precept ... can satisfy the claims of the divine law.
There are many whose hearts have been so hardened by prosperity that they forget God, and forget the wants of their fellow-men. Professed Christians adorn themselves with jewelry, laces, costly apparel, while the Lord's poor suffer for the necessaries of life. Men and women who claim redemption through a Saviour's blood will squander the means intrusted to them for the saving of other souls, and then grudging dole out their offerings for religion, giving liberally only when it will bring honor to themselves. These are idolaters.51The Signs of the Times, January 26, 1882.
Anything that diverts the mind from God assumes the form of an idol, and that is why there is so little power in the church today.52Ellen G. White Manuscript 2, 1893.
The second commandment forbids the worship of the true God by images or similitudes.... The mind, turned away from the infinite perfection of Jehovah, would be attracted to the creature rather than to the Creator.53Patriarchs and Prophets, 306.
God is a searcher of the heart. He distinguishes between true heart-service and idolatry.54Ellen G. White Manuscript 126, 1901.



TESTIMONIES FOR THE CHURCH, VOL. 6, PAGE 450

Practice economy in your homes. By many, idols are cherished and worshiped. Put away your idols. Give up your selfish pleasures. Do not, I entreat you, absorb means in embellishing your houses, for it is God's money, and it will be required of you again. Parents, for Christ’s sake do not use the Lord's money in pleasing the fancies of your children. Do not teach them to seek after style and ostentation in order to gain influence in the world. Will this incline them to save the souls for whom Christ died? No; it will create envy, jealousy, and evil surmising. Your children will be led to compete with the show and extravagance of the world, and to spend the Lord's money for that which is not essential to health or happiness.

I've shared many modern day views of idolatry with you addressing the same principles addressed by EGW above. Now you see the principle EGW was applying to photos which she also applied to all things one might make of more import than God in their lives, thus creating an idol within their hearts. You will ignore this of course and continue your ranting and raving, bearing false witness after false witness.  So be it.

There is nothing new under the sun. There has always been open warfare between the false prophets and the true prophets of God. You are attacking a woman who many consider a prophetess of God who pointed all to salvation in Christ Jesus and the holy scriptures as the final authority on all issues. You claim to be doing the same in your attacks upon her. One of you is certainly a false prophet, God will sort such out shortly.

Photographs are not idols, until people make them idols. Just like anything else. You judge EGW had photos taken for her own glory or gratification above God, you will meet her soon enough before God, and receive your reward of condemnation accordingly. I'll see you there if not before, since I contend you are twisting her words
and judging her motives above and beyond what you are able. Unless you profess straight up to actually be a prophet of God to whom He has revealed these motives. I don't think that is what you are saying though, is it?

No idols exist in and of themselves, people make things idols by placing them above God, or straight up making them their God.

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Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
« Reply #31 on: Sun Jun 30, 2019 - 22:53:02 »
Either or is just fine. Her writings were numerous, published rapidly, spread around the world, and translated into many different languages. They also became abundant and produced much fruit.

You and your buddy Beam are choosing to center in on photographs as the idol, instead of individuals making them idols, which is what EGW addressed. You do this because of your personal agenda to attack and malign her character. If she had a thing specifically for photographs perhaps you would have a point, but she applied the same principle to far more than just photos. You ignore this, or more over don't even know about it because you don't care, you are simply in attack mode and have no regard for what the person you are attacking was really trying to convey to those she was addressing. Observe the following and understand the principle or underlying spiritual application of what EGW was addressing, not just your prejudiced immediate thoughts as anti-EGW antagonists.

I've shared many modern day views of idolatry with you addressing the same principles addressed by EGW above. Now you see the principle EGW was applying to photos which she also applied to all things one might make of more import than God in their lives, thus creating an idol within their hearts. You will ignore this of course and continue your ranting and raving, bearing false witness after false witness.  So be it.

There is nothing new under the sun. There has always been open warfare between the false prophets and the true prophets of God. You are attacking a woman who many consider a prophetess of God who pointed all to salvation in Christ Jesus and the holy scriptures as the final authority on all issues. You claim to be doing the same in your attacks upon her. One of you is certainly a false prophet, God will sort such out shortly.

Photographs are not idols, until people make them idols. Just like anything else. You judge EGW had photos taken for her own glory or gratification above God, you will meet her soon enough before God, and receive your reward of condemnation accordingly. I'll see you there if not before, since I contend you are twisting her words
and judging her motives above and beyond what you are able. Unless you profess straight up to actually be a prophet of God to whom He has revealed these motives. I don't think that is what you are saying though, is it?

No idols exist in and of themselves, people make things idols by placing them above God, or straight up making them their God.
Well Amo I believe Ellen was on a rampage am sure you have justified having your photos setting around or hanging on the walls of your home and if I were a SDA I would have them too.  People don't idolize photographs.  I believe Ellen was on a rampage because the money wasn't coming in as the hierarchy expected and she used bicycles and photographs to chide the flock.  She made up the story and used her imaginary instructor as the one who indicated that photos are indeed idols.  You indicated that it was not the pictures that were idols, it was the people who possessed them.   Not so Amo.  The instructor was adamant that it was the photographs themselves.  She even said it was about the money that should have been given to the church.   Ellen was paid just like the preachers were.  Maybe she thought she wasn't going to get her pay.

You have justified having photos by twisting. the words of the instructor.    Then you tried to explain all of that to us.  Just like the many other flaws in her writings it is extremely had to cover for her.

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Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
« Reply #32 on: Mon Jul 01, 2019 - 22:28:23 »
Either or is just fine. Her writings were numerous, published rapidly, spread around the world, and translated into many different languages. They also became abundant and produced much fruit.

You and your buddy Beam are choosing to center in on photographs as the idol, instead of individuals making them idols, which is what EGW addressed. You do this because of your personal agenda to attack and malign her character.


My agenda is to proclaim the Gospel, which you seem allergic to, and ellen definitely was.  Malign her character?  The character of a false prophet?  I don't need to.  She has done that herself.

Just because a thing is numerous doesn't make it right.

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Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
« Reply #33 on: Fri Jul 05, 2019 - 10:48:58 »
My agenda is to proclaim the Gospel, which you seem allergic to, and ellen definitely was.  Malign her character?  The character of a false prophet?  I don't need to.  She has done that herself.

Just because a thing is numerous doesn't make it right.

BALONEY! We are here discussing EGW because your buddy Beam brought her up yet again, and you came here to back up Beams accusations. Are your accusations against EGW the Gospel? If not, then apparently you are not just about proclaiming the gospel. Apart from which, a gospel which abolishes the commandments of God which Jesus came to establish, is a false gospel. Idol worship or not is part of the gospel, which is about bringing people back to the worship of the one and only true God instead of idols which are only the worship of self.

No, numerous does not make right, nor was that my point at all. My point is pretty simple. Famous people who write many books, pamphlets, articles, and travel around the globe lecturing end up having a lot of photos taken of them with or without their consent or desire. Nor is allowing someone to take photos during such endeavors the same at all as spending large amounts of time and money having photos taken of yourself and decorating your home or other places with them. Like it or not, EGW was and is famous still to this day, compared to most. This no doubt has a lot to do with why there are many pictures of her. Nevertheless you are free to condemn her as a hypocrite and false prophet for this if you wish, God will address and finalize the issue when He appears.

Again though, your claim to be about the gospel alone when you are here backing up your buddy Beam who started this thread, doesn't seem very accurate. We are only here because you and Beam continue to bring up EGW with your accusations against her. Your claim that I am immune to the gospel is another accusation that God will address when He appears. Perhaps you should stick to addressing doctrine, rather than things about other people you cannot possibly know or properly judge. Such is conducive to a greater possibility of bearing false witness against ones neighbor.

The following link is provided for you just to show you how very much EGW actually did have to say about the gospel.

https://text.egwwritings.org/search.php?lang=en&collection=2&section=all&QUERY=gospel&Search=Search

Please do take some time to look through the 14217 references found in her writings concerning the gospel at the search engine linked above.

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Re: Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs
« Reply #34 on: Fri Jul 05, 2019 - 11:10:18 »
Well Amo I believe Ellen was on a rampage am sure you have justified having your photos setting around or hanging on the walls of your home and if I were a SDA I would have them too.  People don't idolize photographs.  I believe Ellen was on a rampage because the money wasn't coming in as the hierarchy expected and she used bicycles and photographs to chide the flock.  She made up the story and used her imaginary instructor as the one who indicated that photos are indeed idols.  You indicated that it was not the pictures that were idols, it was the people who possessed them.   Not so Amo.  The instructor was adamant that it was the photographs themselves.  She even said it was about the money that should have been given to the church.   Ellen was paid just like the preachers were.  Maybe she thought she wasn't going to get her pay.

You have justified having photos by twisting. the words of the instructor.    Then you tried to explain all of that to us.  Just like the many other flaws in her writings it is extremely had to cover for her.

More BALONEY! No question about it though, as you travel deeper and deeper into your accusations against EGW you are either traveling toward great reward for your efforts against a false prophet, or insuring your place in the lake of fire for bearing continuous false witness against a true prophetess of God. Again, perhaps you should stick to proving her claims wrong, rather than attacking her character and accusing her of things you cannot possibly know for sure. This way you will have just been wrong in the end, and not guilty of bearing false witness against another which is a ticket straight to the lake of fire.

The following quote is from the link provided below. Perhaps you will find it of interest. Or perhaps you can find another accusation to make within it.

https://whiteestate.org/legacy/issues-faq-egw-html/#faq-section-a6


Quote
Ellen G. White's Financial Affairs

Was Ellen White a millionaire?
Didn't Ellen White contradict her own teachings by dying in debt?
If Ellen White's writings are inspired, why are her books copyrighted and sold?
Didn't Ellen White contradict her own counsel when she sometimes sent tithe funds directly to needy ministers?

Was Ellen White a millionaire?

More than once in her ministry, Ellen White was confronted by reports that she was accumulating great wealth because of her book royalties. Here is her direct response to one detractor, written in 1897 while she lived in Australia:

"You have made reports in reference to me being rich. How did you know I was? For about ten years I have been working on borrowed property. Should I sell all that I have in my possession, I would not have sufficient to pay my outstanding debts.

"Where have I invested this money? You well know where. I have been the bank from which to draw to carry forward the work in this country. . . .

"I have borrowed money to do the work which must be done. Not one shilling of the donations sent me, from the least sum to larger amounts, has been used for myself. Our good Sister Wessels made me a present of a silk dress, and made me promise I would not sell it. But I thought that had she placed in my hands the amount the dress was worth, it would have been used in the cause of God.

"I see debts on our meetinghouses and it hurts my soul. I cannot but feel distress over the matter. I have invested money in the Parramatta church, in the Prospect church, in the Napier church, in the Ormondville church, in the Gisborne church, and in the education of students. I have sent persons to America that they might be fitted to return and do work in this country. If this is the way to become rich, I think it would be well for others to try it.

"All the royalty on my foreign books sold in America is sacredly dedicated to God for the education of students, that they may be fitted for the ministry. Thousands of dollars have been thus expended. Is this the way to accumulate money? The old story that Canright and others have circulated, that I was worth thirty thousand dollars, all fiction. It has increased to thirty thousand pounds, by report, since I came to Australia.

"I do not know where it is. I am using up my means, just as fast as it comes in, to carry forward the work in this country. If I had thirty thousand pounds, I would not have sent to Africa for the loan of one thousand pounds on which I am paying interest. If I could, I would get a loan of another thousand pounds, so that we might be able to put up the main school building.

"I have not thirty thousand pounds. I only wish I had a million dollars. I would do as I did in Sydney. I would put men in the field to labor, defraying their expenses from my own funds. We need one hundred men where we now have one in the field" (Letter 98a, 1897).

Six years later, in a private letter dated October 19, 1903, Ellen White wrote, "I have done all I could to help the cause of God with my means. I am paying interest on twenty thousand dollars, all of which I have invested in the work of God. And I shall continue to do all in my power to help to forward His work" (Letter 218, 1903).

Didn't Ellen White contradict her own teachings by dying in debt?

Ellen White wisely warned against the dangers of indebtedness, but when she died she owed nearly $90,000, with assets appraised at a little more than $65,000. This left a deficit of more than $20,000. Did Ellen White handle her finances irresponsibly and in complete disregard to her own counsels? When all the facts of her business affairs are considered, it is clear that Ellen White did not violate the spirit and intent of the counsel she gave concerning freedom from debt.

It should be noted that Ellen White did not advocate an extreme position on debt--that under no circumstances should one make any moves unless the money is in hand. She recognized that opportunities present themselves where the appropriate response is to move forward in faith, even if it is necessary to "borrow money and pay interest" (Counsels on Stewardship, p. 278).

In her own experience, most of Ellen White's borrowing was incurred during the later years of her life when, realizing the shortness of her days, she did some of her heaviest work in preparing new books, both in English and in other languages. There were only two ways in which such expenses of book preparation could be met--either in profits from former publishing (i.e., royalties), or by borrowing against anticipated royalties. Because of Ellen White's past generosity in contributing funds toward the work of the church, she was left to rely upon future earnings (royalties) to liquidate her debt. Part of that generosity consisted in her declining to receive royalties for non-English editions, and donating the royalties of her most popular later works, Christ's Object Lessons (1900) and The Ministry of Healing (1905), for the support of specific church projects. In the years following her death the continued sales of her publications entirely met her obligations, as she had anticipated. For a fuller discussion of Ellen White's indebtedness, see "Mrs. White's Indebtedness."