Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs

[Amo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXwshKfg9-Y

Good sermon on idols and the second commandment. Anything can be made an idol if or when it is put above God in our lives.

[piecrust]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXwshKfg9-Y

Good sermon on idols and the second commandment. Anything can be made an idol if or when it is put above God in our lives.

Well yes.  The sabbath and the law spring to mind.

[beam]

More BALONEY! No question about it though, as you travel deeper and deeper into your accusations against EGW you are either traveling toward great reward for your efforts against a false prophet, or insuring your place in the lake of fire for bearing continuous false witness against a true prophetess of God. Again, perhaps you should stick to proving her claims wrong, rather than attacking her character and accusing her of things you cannot possibly know for sure. This way you will have just been wrong in the end, and not guilty of bearing false witness against another which is a ticket straight to the lake of fire.

The following quote is from the link provided below. Perhaps you will find it of interest. Or perhaps you can find another accusation to make within it.

https://whiteestate.org/legacy/issues-faq-egw-html/#faq-section-a6

  Hi Amo, you can deny that the "instructor" said that photographs are idols just as you deny all of the other problematic issues we present.  You can call what I write "baloney" but that doesn't change facts.  You deny that scripture says what it does as in 2Cor3:7-11 but that doesn't change the fact that Paul wrote that the 10 commandments were done away.    Having gone through the fire of Adventism it is wonderful to know that Ellen White was not what she pretended to be.  I can look straight into your eyes and proclaim that I am saved.  I know that there is no such thing as the investigative judgment.   To think that the Savior of this World is sitting in a room deciding whether or not someone is worthy of salvation and has been doing that since 1844 is ludicrous.   Ellen's story about the plan of salvation being an afterthought is also ludicrous, but there you are with your big guns trying to make us believe all of that malarky is true.

[Amo]

Well yes.  The sabbath and the law spring to mind.

Anything does mean anything.

[Amo]

Beam -

Hi Amo, you can deny that the "instructor" said that photographs are idols just as you deny all of the other problematic issues we present.  You can call what I write "baloney" but that doesn't change facts.

Thank you for giving me permission to deny what I wish. However, I do not deny that photographs were called idols. I just understand that nothing is an idol until one makes it an idol, which apparently you do not. A carved statue is just that, a carved statue. If some one however, decides to idolize that statue and state it represents their chosen deity, it then becomes an idol to them. However, it still remains just a statue to others who have done no such thing. So it is with all idols. You simply refuse this truth, because it does not lend credence to your accusation against EGW. So be it.

Beam -

You deny that scripture says what it does as in 2Cor3:7-11 but that doesn't change the fact that Paul wrote that the 10 commandments were done away.

2 Cor 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart. 4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward: 5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God; 6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. 7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: 8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. 10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. 11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious. 12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: 13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: 14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. 15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. 16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

Since when is writings God’s law upon the hearts of Jesus’ followers and not just in stone, abolishing the law? What sense does that make? The letter of the law condemns and kills, leading us to Christ for salvation. The saved have the law fulfilled within through the Spirit. This is life not death. It establishes the law, not abolishes it. The condemnation of the law has been taken away and abolished for those in Christ, not the law itself. What does establishing the law in one’s heart by the Spirit have to do with abolishing the law?

Rom 8:1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

You do the same thing with Paul’s writings, that you do with EGW’s. You take one statement and make it what you want it to be, and then refuse all else written by them on the matter which contradicts what you have created. They will both condemn you in the judgment. It is the carnal mind that is not subject to the law of God and neither can be. Your false gospel claims the saved are not subject to God’s law and need not be. Paul’s gospel says the righteousness of God’s law is fulfilled within the believer by the Spirit, by faith. This most obviously establishes the law within the believer, not abolishes it. Your gospel is false and refuses all scripture which testifies of the establishment God’s law in and through our Savior and Lord Jesus Christ. So be it.

Mt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Beam -

Having gone through the fire of Adventism it is wonderful to know that Ellen White was not what she pretended to be.  I can look straight into your eyes and proclaim that I am saved.

Your words are apparently very convincing to yourself, they have not convinced me of anything, but your willingness to bring forth accusations and twist and mutilate the words and intentions of others. No one will ever be saved by proclaiming of themselves that they are saved, including you. Jesus Christ will pronounce your sentence when He returns, then you will stand justified or condemned like the rest of us. His word is truth, ours is not. From what I have seen, you do not believe much of His word.

Beam -

I know that there is no such thing as the investigative judgment.

You know nothing and are deceived. God absolutely will judge the entire world before He returns and our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will bring His reward with Him, just as scripture testifies.

Mt 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. 16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Beam -

To think that the Savior of this World is sitting in a room deciding whether or not someone is worthy of salvation and has been doing that since 1844 is ludicrous.

I have never believed Christ is sitting in a room since 1844. Not any room anything like we know or understand in any case. I believe scripture which states He is in the temple in heaven interceding for humanity, which has everything to do with our salvation or not by the way, and therefore by extension our judgment. Neither EGW or myself are confined to your narrow minded, judgmental, and erroneous claims and or accusations. These are the confines of your own mind and imagination, not mine or anyone else’s who does not take them on as their own.

Rom 8:31:What shall we then say to these things?If God be for us, who can be against us? 32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. 34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Heb 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God. 20 And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest: 21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:) 22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament. 23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death: 24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. 25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Heb 8:1Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; 2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer. 4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law: 5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount. 6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is the High Priest of this new covenant era. He intercedes for us in the true “tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man”. That intercession for us or not, has everything to do with one’s eternal salvation or not, and therefore also the judgement of every individual in regards to the same. Any and all who abandon that intercession or are cut off from it, are lost. God alone judges who will and who will not be saved by that intercession.

Ellen’s story about the plan of salvation being an afterthought is also ludicrous, but there you are with your big guns trying to make us believe all of that malarky is true.

To the contrary, you are a liar. It is as I have said. You have taken what she wrote in one place, twisted it into what you want it to have said, and ignore or reject anything else she has said which contradicts your twisted lying application of her words. Unless you repent, you stand a liar bearing false witness before God and humanity. The following quotes from EGW directly contradict your false accusations, you simply choose to ignore and reject them. This, just as you ignore and reject scripture which contradicts your false gospel. Emphasis in the following quotes is mine.

The plan for our redemption was not an afterthought, a plan formulated after the fall of Adam. It was a revelation of “the mystery which hath been kept in silence through times eternal.” Romans 16:25, R.V. It was an unfolding of the principles that from eternal ages have been the foundation of God's throne.... God did not ordain that sin should exist, but He foresaw its existence, and made provision to meet the terrible emergency.(The Desire of Ages, 22.)


Compassion for the Unsaved—But how few of us regard the salvation of sinners in the light in which it is viewed by the heavenly universe,—as a plan devised from eternity in the mind of God! How few of us are heart to heart with the Redeemer in this solemn, closing work! There is scarcely a tithe of the compassion that there should be for souls unsaved. There are so many to be warned, and yet how few sympathize with God sufficiently to be anything or nothing if only they can see souls won to Christ!(Gospel Workers, 116 (1915))

The words that Christ uttered were not mere sentiment or opinion. They were pure, unadulterated truth. Suppositions and fables never passed His lips. False theories He met as dangerous evils. “No lie is of the truth,” He declared. [1 John 2:21.] He bore a message that unfolded truth of the highest order. “What is the chaff to the wheat,” He said when He heard the words of prevarication and deception. [Jeremiah 23:28.] Science was not the theme upon which Christ dwelt. But gospel truth—the truth which had been framed from eternity—entered into His every purpose. His life was one of pure, holy, disinterested benevolence—a life unmarred by the slightest taint of selfishness.(Ms 140, 1903)

Chapter 10—The Science of Salvation the First of Sciences

The plan of salvation had its place in the counsels of the Infinite from all eternity. The gospel is the revelation of God's love to men, and means everything that is essential to the happiness and well-being of humanity. The work of God in the earth is of immeasurable importance, and it is Satan's special object to crowd it out of sight and mind, that he may make his specious devices effectual in the destruction of those for whom Christ died. It is his purpose to cause the discoveries of men to be exalted above the wisdom of God. When the mind is engrossed with the conceptions and theories of men to the exclusion of the wisdom of God, it is stamped with idolatry. Science, falsely so-called, has been exalted above God, nature above its Maker, and how can God look upon such wisdom?(CHRISTIAN EDUCATION, PAGE 83)


Before Creation, May 1

The terms of this oneness between God and man in the great covenant of redemption were arranged with Christ from all eternity. The covenant of grace was revealed to the patriarchs. The covenant made with Abraham ... was a covenant confirmed by God in Christ, the very same gospel which is preached to us.... Paul speaks of the gospel, the preaching of Jesus Christ, as “the revelation of the mystery, which hath been kept in silence through times eternal, but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, is made known unto all the nations unto obedience of faith” (Romans 16:25, 26, R.V.) (GOD’S AMAZING GRACE, PAGE 129)

August 24, 1891
Christ our Hope

The covenant of grace is not a new truth, for it existed in the mind of God from all eternity. This is why it is called the everlasting covenant. The plan of redemption was not conceived after the fall of man to cure the dreadful evil; the apostle Paul speaks of the gospel, the preaching of Jesus Christ, as “the revelation of the mystery, which hath been kept in silence through times eternal, but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, is made known unto all the nations unto obedience of faith.” (THE SIGNS OF THE TIMES)


The keenest human discernment cannot understand the length and breadth and depth and height of the plan which reaches from everlasting to everlasting—a depth which reaches to the lowest state of human degradation and misery, a height that reaches to the throne of Jehovah. Those who looked upon the pallid face of the Son of God could have no just conceptions of his sufferings. As every divine and human aid failed, and the noble Sufferer stood alone, the terror of darkness and despair gathered about his soul. When Christ cried out, “My God, my God why hast thou forsaken me?” his divinity did not come to his aid to help him see that his case was perfectly free. Not a ray of brightness illuminated that dying struggle. Not a pang of the death sentence was spared the Son of God. The word of the Lord was, “The soul that sinneth, it shall die.” [Ezekiel 18:4.] The sentence of death which God had pronounced against every transgressor of his law, must be executed against the Son of God.(Ms 205,1899)


Before Sin Arose, God Had a Plan

God and Christ knew from the beginning, of the apostasy of Satan and of the fall of Adam through the deceptive power of the apostate. The plan of salvation was designed to redeem the fallen race, to give them another trial. Christ was appointed to the office of Mediator from the creation of God, set up from everlasting to be our substitute and surety.(Selected Messages 1:250)

Known unto God are all His works, and from eternal ages the covenant of grace (unmerited favor) existed in the mind of God. It is called the everlasting covenant; for the plan of salvation was not conceived after the fall of man, but it was that which was “kept in silence through times eternal, but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, is made known unto all the nations unto obedience of faith.” Romans 16:25, 26, A.R.V.(The Signs of the Times, December 15, 1914.)

Rev 21:6  And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

[beam]

Hi Amo, while you are finding all the places Ellen did get it correct about the plan of Salvation I thought you might want to mull this one over in your mind.  You have accused me of a lot of bad things Amo.  I am wondering what you will accuse me of for posting the following?  You really scraped the bottom when you called me a liar.  Is that how Adventism treaches their flocks to treat others? 


Ellen on the plan of salvation after the fall of man.


That was the plan of salvation after the fall of man Amo.  In this account the accompanying angel was right there instructing her.  Now lets be fair Amo, which of her accounts of the plan should one believe.  This account has an angel from Heaven giving her the "wisdom" to write the account.
Ellen's account of the plan of salvation formulated after the fall of man: Early Writings pages 149-153
Sorrow filled heaven, as it was realized that man was lost, and that world which God had created was to be filled with mortals doomed to misery, sickness, and death, and there was no way of escape for the offender. The whole family of Adam must die. I saw the lovely Jesus and beheld an expression of sympathy and sorrow upon His countenance. Soon I saw Him approach the exceeding bright light which enshrouded the Father. Said my accompanying angel, He is in close converse with His Father. The anxiety of the angels seemed to be intense while Jesus was communing with His Father. Three times He was shut in by the glorious light about the Father, and the third time He came from the Father, His person could be seen. His countenance was calm, free from all perplexity and doubt, and shone with benevolence and loveliness, such as words cannot express. He then made known to the angelic host that a way of escape had been made for lost man. He told them that He had been pleading with His Father, and had offered to give His life a ransom, to take the sentence of death upon Himself, that through Him man might find pardon; that through the merits of His blood, and obedience to the law of God, they could have the favor of God, and be brought into the beautiful garden, and eat of the fruit of the tree of life.

At first the angels could not rejoice; for their Commander concealed nothing from them, but opened
150
before them the plan of salvation. Jesus told them that He would stand between the wrath of His Father and guilty man, that He would bear iniquity and scorn, and but few would receive Him as the Son of God. Nearly all would hate and reject Him. He would leave all His glory in heaven, appear upon earth as a man, humble Himself as a man, become acquainted by His own experience with the various temptations with which man would be beset, that He might know how to succor those who should be tempted; and that finally, after His mission as a teacher would be accomplished, He would be delivered into the hands of men, and endure almost every cruelty and suffering that Satan and his angels could inspire wicked men to inflict; that He would die the cruelest of deaths, hung up between the heavens and the earth as a guilty sinner; that He would suffer dreadful hours of agony, which even angels could not look upon, but would veil their faces from the sight. Not merely agony of body would He suffer, but mental agony, that with which bodily suffering could in no wise be compared. The weight of the sins of the whole world would be upon Him. He told them He would die and rise again the third day, and would ascend to His Father to intercede for wayward, guilty man.
[/size]
[/size]The angels prostrated themselves before Him. They offered their lives. Jesus said to them that He would by His death save many, that the life of an angel could not pay the debt. His life alone could be accepted of His Father as a ransom for man. Jesus also told them that they would have a part to act, to be with Him and at different times strengthen Him; that He would take man's fallen nature, and His strength would not be even equal with theirs; that they would be witnesses of His humiliation and great sufferings; and that as they would witness His sufferings, and the
[/size] 151
[/size] hatred of men toward Him, they would be stirred with the deepest emotion, and through their love for Him would wish to rescue and deliver Him from His murderers; but that they must not interfere to prevent anything they should behold; and that they should act a part in His resurrection; that the plan of salvation was devised, and His Father had accepted the plan.[/color]
[/size]
[/size]With a holy sadness Jesus comforted and cheered the angels and informed them that hereafter those whom He should redeem would be with Him, and that by His death He should ransom many and destroy him who had the power of death. And His Father would give Him the kingdom and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, and He would possess it forever and ever. Satan and sinners would be destroyed, nevermore to disturb heaven or the purified new earth. Jesus bade the heavenly host be reconciled to the plan that His Father had accepted and rejoice that through His death fallen man could again be exalted to obtain favor with God and enjoy heaven.
[/size]
[/size]Then joy, inexpressible joy, filled heaven. And the heavenly host sang a song of praise and adoration. They touched their harps and sang a note higher than they had done before, for the great mercy and condescension of God in yielding up His dearly Beloved to die for a race of rebels. Praise and adoration were poured forth for the self-denial and sacrifice of Jesus; that He would consent to leave the bosom of His Father, and choose a life of suffering and anguish, and die an ignominious death to give life to others.
[/size]
[/size]Said the angel, "Think ye that the Father yielded up His dearly beloved Son without a struggle? No, no. It was even a struggle with the God of heaven, whether to let guilty man perish, or to give His beloved Son to die for Him." Angels were so interested for man's
[/size] 152
[/size] salvation that there could be found among them those who would yield their glory and give their life for perishing man, "But," said my accompanying angel, "that would avail nothing. The transgression was so great that an angel's life would not pay the debt. Nothing but the death and intercessions of His son would pay the debt and save lost man from hopeless sorrow and misery."  .......[/color]
[/size]
I am sure that those who are reading our posts will be waiting for how you will escape this one.[/font]

[Amo]

Hi Amo, while you are finding all the places Ellen did get it correct about the plan of Salvation I thought you might want to mull this one over in your mind.  You have accused me of a lot of bad things Amo.  I am wondering what you will accuse me of for posting the following?  You really scraped the bottom when you called me a liar.  Is that how Adventism treaches their flocks to treat others? 


Ellen on the plan of salvation after the fall of man.


That was the plan of salvation after the fall of man Amo.  In this account the accompanying angel was right there instructing her.  Now lets be fair Amo, which of her accounts of the plan should one believe.  This account has an angel from Heaven giving her the "wisdom" to write the account.
Ellen's account of the plan of salvation formulated after the fall of man: Early Writings pages 149-153
Sorrow filled heaven, as it was realized that man was lost, and that world which God had created was to be filled with mortals doomed to misery, sickness, and death, and there was no way of escape for the offender. The whole family of Adam must die. I saw the lovely Jesus and beheld an expression of sympathy and sorrow upon His countenance. Soon I saw Him approach the exceeding bright light which enshrouded the Father. Said my accompanying angel, He is in close converse with His Father. The anxiety of the angels seemed to be intense while Jesus was communing with His Father. Three times He was shut in by the glorious light about the Father, and the third time He came from the Father, His person could be seen. His countenance was calm, free from all perplexity and doubt, and shone with benevolence and loveliness, such as words cannot express. He then made known to the angelic host that a way of escape had been made for lost man. He told them that He had been pleading with His Father, and had offered to give His life a ransom, to take the sentence of death upon Himself, that through Him man might find pardon; that through the merits of His blood, and obedience to the law of God, they could have the favor of God, and be brought into the beautiful garden, and eat of the fruit of the tree of life.

At first the angels could not rejoice; for their Commander concealed nothing from them, but opened
150
before them the plan of salvation. Jesus told them that He would stand between the wrath of His Father and guilty man, that He would bear iniquity and scorn, and but few would receive Him as the Son of God. Nearly all would hate and reject Him. He would leave all His glory in heaven, appear upon earth as a man, humble Himself as a man, become acquainted by His own experience with the various temptations with which man would be beset, that He might know how to succor those who should be tempted; and that finally, after His mission as a teacher would be accomplished, He would be delivered into the hands of men, and endure almost every cruelty and suffering that Satan and his angels could inspire wicked men to inflict; that He would die the cruelest of deaths, hung up between the heavens and the earth as a guilty sinner; that He would suffer dreadful hours of agony, which even angels could not look upon, but would veil their faces from the sight. Not merely agony of body would He suffer, but mental agony, that with which bodily suffering could in no wise be compared. The weight of the sins of the whole world would be upon Him. He told them He would die and rise again the third day, and would ascend to His Father to intercede for wayward, guilty man.
[/size]
[/size]The angels prostrated themselves before Him. They offered their lives. Jesus said to them that He would by His death save many, that the life of an angel could not pay the debt. His life alone could be accepted of His Father as a ransom for man. Jesus also told them that they would have a part to act, to be with Him and at different times strengthen Him; that He would take man's fallen nature, and His strength would not be even equal with theirs; that they would be witnesses of His humiliation and great sufferings; and that as they would witness His sufferings, and the
[/size] 151
[/size] hatred of men toward Him, they would be stirred with the deepest emotion, and through their love for Him would wish to rescue and deliver Him from His murderers; but that they must not interfere to prevent anything they should behold; and that they should act a part in His resurrection; that the plan of salvation was devised, and His Father had accepted the plan.[/color]
[/size]
[/size]With a holy sadness Jesus comforted and cheered the angels and informed them that hereafter those whom He should redeem would be with Him, and that by His death He should ransom many and destroy him who had the power of death. And His Father would give Him the kingdom and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, and He would possess it forever and ever. Satan and sinners would be destroyed, nevermore to disturb heaven or the purified new earth. Jesus bade the heavenly host be reconciled to the plan that His Father had accepted and rejoice that through His death fallen man could again be exalted to obtain favor with God and enjoy heaven.
[/size]
[/size]Then joy, inexpressible joy, filled heaven. And the heavenly host sang a song of praise and adoration. They touched their harps and sang a note higher than they had done before, for the great mercy and condescension of God in yielding up His dearly Beloved to die for a race of rebels. Praise and adoration were poured forth for the self-denial and sacrifice of Jesus; that He would consent to leave the bosom of His Father, and choose a life of suffering and anguish, and die an ignominious death to give life to others.
[/size]
[/size]Said the angel, "Think ye that the Father yielded up His dearly beloved Son without a struggle? No, no. It was even a struggle with the God of heaven, whether to let guilty man perish, or to give His beloved Son to die for Him." Angels were so interested for man's
[/size] 152
[/size] salvation that there could be found among them those who would yield their glory and give their life for perishing man, "But," said my accompanying angel, "that would avail nothing. The transgression was so great that an angel's life would not pay the debt. Nothing but the death and intercessions of His son would pay the debt and save lost man from hopeless sorrow and misery."  .......[/color]
[/size]
I am sure that those who are reading our posts will be waiting for how you will escape this one.[/font]

You are a liar, who thinks they know what someone else believed better than they did and expressed. Latching on to written words which serve your own twisted purpose of lying accusations, and ignoring and rejecting all else spoken upon the same subject to the contrary. As though you or anyone else could cover every angle of any issue in just a few paragraphs of writing. So you attack that written in a few paragraphs and reject all else written which expounds upon the same because it contradicts your false lying accusations concerning those few paragraphs. You are of course free to continue your twisted lying rants. At your own peril I might add.

[beam]

Wow!!! you true nature has reared its ugly head.  I quote the supposed prophet and you go off on a rage.  Your going off because I introduced the truth of what she wrote?    May I remind you that I didn't make all that up, I merely copied and pasted the words she wrote.   Notice that her angel was there telling her those things

Is her account true?  Was the plan of salvation an afterthought?   I am convinced it was all falsehood.

[Amo]

Wow!!! you true nature has reared its ugly head.  I quote the supposed prophet and you go off on a rage.  Your going off because I introduced the truth of what she wrote?    May I remind you that I didn't make all that up, I merely copied and pasted the words she wrote.   Notice that her angel was there telling her those things

Is her account true?  Was the plan of salvation an afterthought?   I am convinced it was all falsehood.

You are of course free to be convinced of whatever you wish, and make what ever twisted accusations you wish, as is obvious. Yes, my true nature includes allowing others to speak and expound upon what they actually believe in more than just one place or article or book. Your nature is to take this or that statement from others and make it what you want apart from or in contradiction to their own testimony elsewhere. To me, you are the falsehood, the liar.

We have been through this before, but you are a broken record, so here we are again. As already addressed in prior posts regarding this issue, actual events transpiring in relation to the creation, fall, and salvation of humanity in heaven and on earth, does not equal violation of God's foreknowledge. If nothing was ever supposed to happen if or when God knew it was coming, then nothing would ever happen, or even be. We actually did fall, God actually did implement the plan of salvation, Christ actually did die for us, He actually is our High Priest interceding for us now before the Father, the gospel actually has and continues to be given to the world that they might be saved, biblical prophecy actually has and continues to be fulfilled as history unfolds and is actually happening, Christ will actually return bringing His reward with Him, and so on, and so on. God knew all of this was going to happen ions ago, or from the beginning. The fact that it has been and is happening in no way shape or form means it is not real, or false because some how just because it actually happens, God therefore didn't know about it. This is your problem, your brain fart. Not God's or anyone else's. God knows the beginning from the end, not His creations. They continually learn and come to understand God better through His interactions with them as those living His foreknowledge not sharing it.

We learn through what we actually experience in this life God has given us. Therefore did God create us to actually experience what He has always known. It is all for His creation. He doesn't need to know anything. We only know what He has told us and what we experience through Him.

[current occupant2]

You are of course free to be convinced of whatever you wish, and make what ever twisted accusations you wish, as is obvious. Yes, my true nature includes allowing others to speak and expound upon what they actually believe in more than just one place or article or book. Your nature is to take this or that statement from others and make it what you want apart from or in contradiction to their own testimony elsewhere. To me, you are the falsehood, the liar.

We have been through this before, but you are a broken record, so here we are again. As already addressed in prior posts regarding this issue, actual events transpiring in relation to the creation, fall, and salvation of humanity in heaven and on earth, does not equal violation of God's foreknowledge. If nothing was ever supposed to happen if or when God knew it was coming, then nothing would ever happen, or even be. We actually did fall, God actually did implement the plan of salvation, Christ actually did die for us, He actually is our High Priest interceding for us now before the Father, the gospel actually has and continues to be given to the world that they might be saved, biblical prophecy actually has and continues to be fulfilled as history unfolds and is actually happening, Christ will actually return bringing His reward with Him, and so on, and so on. God knew all of this was going to happen ions ago, or from the beginning. The fact that it has been and is happening in no way shape or form means it is not real, or false because some how just because it actually happens, God therefore didn't know about it. This is your problem, your brain fart. Not God's or anyone else's. God knows the beginning from the end, not His creations. They continually learn and come to understand God better through His interactions with them as those living His foreknowledge not sharing it.

We learn through what we actually experience in this life God has given us. Therefore did God create us to actually experience what He has always known. It is all for His creation. He doesn't need to know anything. We only know what He has told us and what we experience through Him.

Why do you continue to create these rabbit trails, red herrings and straw man arguments when Ellen was clearly told by here angel/spirit guide that PHOTOGRAPHS ARE IDOLS. 

[seekingHiswisdom]

Why do you continue to create these rabbit trails, red herrings and straw man arguments when Ellen was clearly told by here angel/spirit guide that PHOTOGRAPHS ARE IDOLS.

Then why did she partake of such?

[beam]

Hi Amo,  So, I am a liar and my post falsehood.  You judge me for copy and pasting a direct excerpt from the hand of the prophet?   I don't stoop so low as to label any other person who posts hostel remarks, so I won't begin with you.   Forgive me Lord for my thoughts.

Your kind of remarks comes from those who are backed into a corner and have nothing to add to the debate, so you revert to personal attack.  It is never too late to try to be nice to others.

[Amo]

Why do you continue to create these rabbit trails, red herrings and straw man arguments when Ellen was clearly told by here angel/spirit guide that PHOTOGRAPHS ARE IDOLS.

Why don't you you pay more attention to who is saying what? Your buddy Beam brought up the photographs are idols rabbit trail, and all the others on this thread. I am just addressing those rabbit trails.

[Amo]

Hi Amo,  So, I am a liar and my post falsehood.  You judge me for copy and pasting a direct excerpt from the hand of the prophet?   I don't stoop so low as to label any other person who posts hostel remarks, so I won't begin with you.   Forgive me Lord for my thoughts.

Your kind of remarks comes from those who are backed into a corner and have nothing to add to the debate, so you revert to personal attack.  It is never too late to try to be nice to others.

More twisted baloney! She wrote what you quoted, she also wrote what I quoted. You reject her testimony I quoted, and pretend it does not exist, so you can maintain your false accusations concerning what she believed. This is what I judge a lie. Nevertheless, you will no doubt continue to twist my and all other words that don't support your accusations. So be it.

[beam]

More twisted baloney! She wrote what you quoted, she also wrote what I quoted. You reject her testimony I quoted, and pretend it does not exist, so you can maintain your false accusations concerning what she believed. This is what I judge a lie. Nevertheless, you will no doubt continue to twist my and all other words that don't support your accusations. So be it.

Finally you agree she wrote what I quoted.   Tell me your thoughts on why she would write something that is not true and even include a supposed angel that came from God in Heaven?   Would a true prophet ever deceive people into believing a blatant lie?  Yet you still defend her to the hilt, why?   You can't help but see she wrote something that was not true.  She made another statement that Isn't true and paraphrasing she wrote that not one word that I write are my own thoughts.  I don't have time to look up where and when she wrote that.  Well, certainly her story about the plan of salvation was not the truth, so what inspired her to write such a lie?  One thing comes to mind, satan.

[seekingHiswisdom]

Finally you agree she wrote what I quoted.   Tell me your thoughts on why she would write something that is not true and even include a supposed angel that came from God in Heaven?   Would a true prophet ever deceive people into believing a blatant lie?  Yet you still defend her to the hilt, why?   You can't help but see she wrote something that was not true.  She made another statement that Isn't true and paraphrasing she wrote that not one word that I write are my own thoughts.  I don't have time to look up where and when she wrote that.  Well, certainly her story about the plan of salvation was not the truth, so what inspired her to write such a lie?  One thing comes to mind, satan.

supposed angel: I see as a problem as there is no proof.

 so what inspired her to write such a lie?

The exact same thing that inspired Joseph Smith to make the "unwitnessed" claims he made that started his religion.

Satan?  Possibly

[piecrust]

More twisted baloney! She wrote what you quoted, she also wrote what I quoted. You reject her testimony I quoted, and pretend it does not exist, so you can maintain your false accusations concerning what she believed. This is what I judge a lie. Nevertheless, you will no doubt continue to twist my and all other words that don't support your accusations. So be it.

why do you accept the words of a false profit?

[Amo]

Finally you agree she wrote what I quoted.   Tell me your thoughts on why she would write something that is not true and even include a supposed angel that came from God in Heaven?   Would a true prophet ever deceive people into believing a blatant lie?  Yet you still defend her to the hilt, why?   You can't help but see she wrote something that was not true.  She made another statement that Isn't true and paraphrasing she wrote that not one word that I write are my own thoughts.  I don't have time to look up where and when she wrote that.  Well, certainly her story about the plan of salvation was not the truth, so what inspired her to write such a lie?  One thing comes to mind, satan.

More twisted lies, misdirection, and misinformation. You even begin with a false pretense, I never denied she wrote what you quoted. I only rightly accused you of doing what you did, are doing, and continually do, twist the words of others to your own ends and eventual destruction. Those professing to be God's people who put more time and money into photographs or anything else above God Himself and their service to Him, are worshiping the idol they have created. This is the truth, and you are a lair for rejecting this truth. When humanity meets God face to face, we will clearly and concisely understand this truth. Those who have not put Him first, will end along with all that was also put before Him.

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Rev 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: 21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

This world is filled with the idols humans raise above God in their every day lives. When photographs first came out and were very time consuming and expensive, they most certainly could have become idols of those who would put to much of the same into them, just as anything else can be likewise. Are photographs the works of God's hands, or of humanities? Spending to much time, money, and effort upon the works of fallen humanity over and above works of God's design and will is and always will be a form of idolatry. This is what EGW was addressing, which you deny. You say she was a false prophet for addressing such, I say you are a false prophet for twisting her words and warnings to your own ends. All liars will burn in the lake of fire. At least one of us and or EGW will burn there, if not both or all of us. So be it. God's judgment and will be done.

[Amo]

why do you accept the words of a false profit?

I don't, which is why I reject your false testimony.

[Amo]

supposed angel: I see as a problem as there is no proof.

 so what inspired her to write such a lie?

The exact same thing that inspired Joseph Smith to make the "unwitnessed" claims he made that started his religion.

Satan?  Possibly

So, all saints who have ever seen and or shared about seeing angles or testimony given to them from angels is a lie? Therefore scripture by extension concerning the same as well? Perhaps you should expound. There are angels, and many people have seen them.

[seekingHiswisdom]

So, all saints who have ever seen and or shared about seeing angles or testimony given to them from angels is a lie? Therefore scripture by extension concerning the same as well? Perhaps you should expound. There are angels, and many people have seen them.

Yes, there are many people who have seen angels. Would it surprise you to know that I believe I ( and my mother) did once?

I did not say, nor do I mean that all  who have ever seen and or shared about seeing angles or testimony given to them from angels is a lie.

What I find troubling are those who have their one on one times with angels who are "instructed" in certain ways or about certain things that first have not been able to be supported in the bible.

Example... What Ellen said about photographs and idolatry. As conveyed by her angel

Plus these are troubling to me:

An Analysis of the Most Shocking and Embarrassing Statements of Ellen G. White
 
By D. Anderson

Amalgamation - A Denominational Embarrassment -- A statement appearing in 1864 indicates that "certain races of men" are a result of the "amalgamation of man and beast." What is amalgamation? Which races are the product of amalgamation? Why was this statement removed from later publications of this book? Widely recognized as the most embarrassing statement penned by Sister White!

Those Tall People of Jupiter -- In her infamous "solar system" vision Mrs. White not only saw Jupiter as having only four moons, but she also saw it inhabited by "a tall, majestic people, so unlike the inhabitants of earth." Is there evidence of life on Jupiter?

Embarrassing Failed Prophecies -- Over and over again, Mrs. White made specific predications about the return of Christ. Examine these prophecies for yourself.

https://www.searchingthescriptures.net/main_pages/answering_cults/seventh_day_adventism/analysis_whites_embarrassing_statements.htm


Example...  Mormon women are not allowed to wear sleeveless dresses. Sleeves should fully cover the shoulder and the upper portion of the arm, including the underarm andshirts with cap sleeves should not be worn alone. But they are allowed to do photographs.

And

What Joseph Smith said about the angel Morani who convinced him that he was a prophet and he set about to interpret those golden plates. He put his own authority over the authority of Scripture. He added his own revelation to the Bible’s revelation and took it upon himself to identify and correct what he claimed were errors in Scripture.

He believed that the Bible was corrupt and insufficient and for that reason both took away from, and added to, God’s written revelation.

He also claimed that his own revelations from God were the only access point to the true gospel that had apparently been lost. Mormon historian Richard Bushman says the “signal feature” of Smith’s life was “his sense of being guided by revelation.” He placed himself above all previous revelations and interpretations of the Bible—even those of Christ himself.
https://www.challies.com/articles/the-false-teachers-joseph-smith/

Just two examples of things that are so far removed from the mainstream Christianity that is debated here on a daily basis....

There are others but these two have formed quite a religious following each quite different then the other.

AND THERE IS NO WAY TO PROVE EITHER WAS RIGHT OR WRONG.

But would you not think that somewhere along the way there would be similarities?

Those who base only on the bible have a hard copy, hold in your hand textbook.

And let us not dismiss too casually those who once in a while come to GC claiming to be in touch or having been given guidance
from God, or and angel, or whatever. For there could be one who is the next Ellen White, Joseph Smith, or even Marshall Applewhite or David Koresh.

We always manage to chase them away....

Would Ellen White or Joseph Smith not also have been chased away by GC members?

If you are comfortable with her and her teachings. Fine. Just know that her visitations from that angel were not different then those that other have had.... there just is going off in different directions.

[piecrust]

I don't, which is why I reject your false testimony.

But you do.  You accept the words of ellen as being equal to that of scripture.  So why do you?

[beam]

More twisted lies, misdirection, and misinformation. You even begin with a false pretense, I never denied she wrote what you quoted.

Come on Amo, you have skirted the issue from the beginning.  You still will not admit she wrote that the plan of salvation came after the fall of man.  All you do and have done is to try to defame me for bringing up the real truth.   Please tell all the lurkers where I have lied.   Copying and pasting her exact words on the subject is not lying now, is it?

I only rightly accused you of doing what you did, are doing, and continually do, twist the words of others to your own ends and eventual destruction.

Accusing me and not telling me where and how certainly is not "rightly" now, is it?

Those professing to be God's people who put more time and money into photographs or anything else above God Himself and their service to Him, are worshiping the idol they have created.

Why cannot you admit that Ellen wrote that her "instructor" told her that photographs are idols period?  Not because they were very costly, but because making pictures of oneself is creating an idol.

This is the truth, and you are a lair for rejecting this truth.

When backed up against a wall all you do is spew hatred and a lie.  I never ever wrote anything about having too much of anything would or would not be an idol.  Certainly, photographs could be idols no matter what they cost.  Clothes, homes, cars, money or any other commodity could become idols.   

When humanity meets God face to face, we will clearly and concisely understand this truth. Those who have not put Him first, will end along with all that was also put before Him.

Where do you stand when you write falsehood and write defamation and accusation?

This world is filled with the idols humans raise above God in their every day lives. When photographs first came out and were very time consuming and expensive, they most certainly could have become idols of those who would put to much of the same into them, just as anything else can be likewise. Are photographs the works of God's hands, or of humanities? Spending to much time, money, and effort upon the works of fallen humanity over and above works of God's design and will is and always will be a form of idolatry. This is what EGW was addressing, which you deny. You say she was a false prophet for addressing such, I say you are a false prophet for twisting her words and warnings to your own ends. All liars will burn in the lake of fire. At least one of us and or EGW will burn there, if not both or all of us. So be it. God's judgment and will be done.

There you go trying to defend the false prophet again.  First, she wrote that the plan of salvation came after the fall of man and then she finally wrote that the plan was before.  She never denied she was wrong about the first writing.   What is such a blatant lie and damning to her is that she wrote that it was her instructor from Heaven who gave her all that information.    How can you deny that what I wrote is not the truth?  How can you in your right mind call me a liar when the evidence is right here in front of you?  OY! brother, get real.

[Amo]

Same old same old crap. At least seekingHiswisdom brought something different to the table. Not new, just different, which has already been addressed in the past on these threads. Rave on false prophets, I will continue to address your ravings at my convenience.

[seekingHiswisdom]

Rave on false prophets, I will continue to address your ravings at my convenience.

Yes, by all means let it be at your convenience.

BUT PLEASE... as you do address us, explain , as if to a first grader, why we are wrong.... and do so with proof.

You have all the proof when you post 'your' ravings in the political forum about the Vatican/Pope.  Here, not so much.

Can you document where these are wrong from my reply last evening?

But before addressing them let me definitively state that I am not at all against Ellen White, nor am I against Joseph Smith.
I , personally have high respect for anyone who believes they were selected by God to be a messenger to us. (I have penpalled with a couple over the years ... until their weirdness came out)

Both have brought certain truths to the table of Christianity, even though they do not concur with each other. That in and of itself is not necessarily bad.

Posters here cannot concur on baptism and here we have an actual written "manuscript" of a textbook for our use. And in multiple books of our textbook written by different inspired people. Nor can we concur on which actual day the crucifixion happened

But to place ones eternity into the hands of an individual or two that got their understanding by "divine inspiration" as both White and Smith did without corroboration of a tangible source or by witness makes me very nervous. It makes me nervous that there are not more people who came forward with the same messages of either of these two to verify that it really came from God. Our bible is from more than one.

At least Smith had those alledged gold tablets that HE took upon himself to transcribe.Which resulted in the Book of Mormon that is claimed to have had 8 witnesses in one account and 11 in another... ( http://www.mrm.org/eleven-witnesses)  Of course those tablets disappeared, to never be seen again

But those 3 children ... The Roman Catholic ones... who saw "Mary " at Fatima had each other as witnesses as to what they were told.. and the crowd who came to see the miracle.... many did see a "dancing" sun, though not all.

So can you prove the following to be errors?

By D. Anderson

Amalgamation - A Denominational Embarrassment -- A statement appearing in 1864 indicates that "certain races of men" are a result of the "amalgamation of man and beast." What is amalgamation? Which races are the product of amalgamation? Why was this statement removed from later publications of this book? Widely recognized as the most embarrassing statement penned by Sister White!

Those Tall People of Jupiter -- In her infamous "solar system" vision Mrs. White not only saw Jupiter as having only four moons, but she also saw it inhabited by "a tall, majestic people, so unlike the inhabitants of earth." Is there evidence of life on Jupiter?

Embarrassing Failed Prophecies -- Over and over again, Mrs. White made specific predications about the return of Christ. Examine these prophecies for yourself.

https://www.searchingthescriptures.net/main_pages/answering_cults/seventh_day_adventism/analysis_whites_embarrassing_statements.htm
_____________________

One final thought about photographs.

My thoughts only.... no documentation.

When Ellen came about and wrote and spoke against photography.... ( which seems to me that since there are those of hers she was of the mind do as I say, not as I do)
this was during a time that it is well known that native Americans would never agree to have their photographs takes because
they felt that a captured image was taking their soul.

Ellen had to have know this and I just think that it possible she somehow had that influence what she believe she was instructed.

Something is off on this that she would "quote" a messenger of God then turn her own back on that message..... 

[Amo]

Yes, by all means let it be at your convenience.

BUT PLEASE... as you do address us, explain , as if to a first grader, why we are wrong.... and do so with proof.

You have all the proof when you post 'your' ravings in the political forum about the Vatican/Pope.  Here, not so much.

Can you document where these are wrong from my reply last evening?

But before addressing them let me definitively state that I am not at all against Ellen White, nor am I against Joseph Smith.
I , personally have high respect for anyone who believes they were selected by God to be a messenger to us. (I have penpalled with a couple over the years ... until their weirdness came out)

Both have brought certain truths to the table of Christianity, even though they do not concur with each other. That in and of itself is not necessarily bad.

Posters here cannot concur on baptism and here we have an actual written "manuscript" of a textbook for our use. And in multiple books of our textbook written by different inspired people. Nor can we concur on which actual day the crucifixion happened

But to place ones eternity into the hands of an individual or two that got their understanding by "divine inspiration" as both White and Smith did without corroboration of a tangible source or by witness makes me very nervous. It makes me nervous that there are not more people who came forward with the same messages of either of these two to verify that it really came from God. Our bible is from more than one.

At least Smith had those alledged gold tablets that HE took upon himself to transcribe.Which resulted in the Book of Mormon that is claimed to have had 8 witnesses in one account and 11 in another... ( http://www.mrm.org/eleven-witnesses)  Of course those tablets disappeared, to never be seen again

But those 3 children ... The Roman Catholic ones... who saw "Mary " at Fatima had each other as witnesses as to what they were told.. and the crowd who came to see the miracle.... many did see a "dancing" sun, though not all.

So can you prove the following to be errors?

By D. Anderson

Amalgamation - A Denominational Embarrassment -- A statement appearing in 1864 indicates that "certain races of men" are a result of the "amalgamation of man and beast." What is amalgamation? Which races are the product of amalgamation? Why was this statement removed from later publications of this book? Widely recognized as the most embarrassing statement penned by Sister White!

Those Tall People of Jupiter -- In her infamous "solar system" vision Mrs. White not only saw Jupiter as having only four moons, but she also saw it inhabited by "a tall, majestic people, so unlike the inhabitants of earth." Is there evidence of life on Jupiter?

Embarrassing Failed Prophecies -- Over and over again, Mrs. White made specific predications about the return of Christ. Examine these prophecies for yourself.

https://www.searchingthescriptures.net/main_pages/answering_cults/seventh_day_adventism/analysis_whites_embarrassing_statements.htm
_____________________

One final thought about photographs.

My thoughts only.... no documentation.

When Ellen came about and wrote and spoke against photography.... ( which seems to me that since there are those of hers she was of the mind do as I say, not as I do)
this was during a time that it is well known that native Americans would never agree to have their photographs takes because
they felt that a captured image was taking their soul.

Ellen had to have know this and I just think that it possible she somehow had that influence what she believe she was instructed.

Something is off on this that she would "quote" a messenger of God then turn her own back on that message..... 

Yes, I will get around to addressing that which you have gleaned from anti-EGW internet sites. It seems there is no end to EGW experts who have never really read her writings to begin with. Perhaps you are different as Beam claims to be, have you read much of EGW's writings? Her attackers on these boards are great at quoting her, and then making her testimony they quoted out to be what it was never meant to be. Then they ignore all of her writings quoted which do actually address their accusations because they contradict the same. This idol issue is maintained by ignoring the principles of what constitutes idol worship in order to maintain the idea that an idol is an actual material thing as apposed to the worship of a material thing by the individual. Anything can be made an idol by someone, while it never will be an idol for another. It is what is done with photographs or anything else that can make them an idol, not the thing itself. The childish raving of the false prophets on this issue, is to the effect that EGW did not understand this basic truth, and exclusively meant that photographs themsleves are idols, instead of people making them idols by putting to much time and money into them. These liars insist it is as they say, regardless of EGW's clear and concise testimony to the opposite effect. Now you wish to join them, so be it. They may ignore the following words of EGW for now which clarify that which they are deliberately obfuscating, but they will be brought back before them in the judgment as a testimony against their false witness.

MEDICAL MINISTRY, PAGE 226

The Law of Faith and Works

Let all examine their own hearts, to see if they are not cherishing that which is a positive injury to them, and in the place of opening the door of the heart to let Jesus, the Sun of Righteousness in, are complaining of the dearth of the Spirit of God. Let these search for their idols, and cast them out. Let them cut away every unhealthful indulgence in eating or drinking. Let them bring their daily practice into harmony with nature's laws. By doing, as well as believing, an atmosphere will be created about the soul that will be a savor of life unto life.—Manuscript 86, 1897.

SDA BIBLE COMMENTARY, VOL. 2 (EGW), PAGE 1011

Chapter 7

3. Modern Forms of Idolatry—Many who bear the name of Christians are serving other gods besides the Lord. Our Creator demands our supreme devotion, our first allegiance. Anything which tends to abate our love for God, or to interfere with the service due Him, becomes thereby an idol. With some their lands, their houses, their merchandise, are the idols. Business enterprises are prosecuted with zeal and energy, while the service of God is made a secondary consideration. Family worship is neglected, secret prayer is forgotten. Many claim to deal justly with their fellow men, and seem to feel that in so doing they discharge their whole duty. But it is not enough to keep the last six commandments of the decalogue. We are to love the Lord our God with all the heart. Nothing short of obedience to every precept—nothing less than supreme love to God as well as equal love to our fellow man—can satisfy the claims of the divine law.
There are many whose hearts have been so hardened by prosperity that they forget God, and forget the wants of their fellow man. Professed Christians adorn themselves with jewelry, laces, costly apparel, while the Lord's poor suffer for the necessaries of life. Men and women who claim redemption through a Saviour's blood will squander the means intrusted to them for the saving of other souls, and then grudgingly dole out their offerings for religion, giving liberally only when it will bring honor to themselves. These are idolaters (The Signs of the Times, January 26, 1882).

COUNSELS ON STEWARDSHIP, PAGE 37

If ever there was a time when sacrifices should be made, it is now. My brethren and sisters, practice economy in your homes. Put away the idols that you have placed before God. Give up your selfish pleasures. Do not, I beg of you, spend means in embellishing your houses; for your money belongs to God, and to Him you must give an account for its use. Do not use the Lord's money to gratify the fancies of your children. Teach them that God has a claim on all they possess, and that nothing can ever cancel this claim.

COUNSELS ON STEWARDSHIP, PAGE 220

Blinded by Love of the World

The cause of God is to hold the first place in our plans and affections. There is need of bearing a straight message concerning the indulgence of self while the cause of God is in need of means. Some are so cold and backslidden that they do not realize that they are setting their affections on earthly treasure, which is soon to be swept away forever. The love of the world is binding them about, like a thick garment; and unless they change their course, they will not know how precious it is to practice self-denial for Christ's sake. All our idols, our love of the world, must be expelled from the heart.

COUNSELS ON STEWARDSHIP, PAGE 288

Were the thousand channels of selfishness cut off that now exist, and the means directed in the right channel, there would be a large revenue flowing into the treasury. Many purchase idols with money that should go to the house of God. No one can practice real benevolence without practicing genuine self-denial. Self-denial and the cross lie directly in the path of every Christian who is truly following Christ. Jesus says: “If any man will come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me.” Will every soul consider the fact that Christian discipleship includes self-denial, self-sacrifice, even to the laying down of life itself, if need be, for the sake of Him who has given His life for the life of the world?

Twisting EGW's words to mean that all photo's are idols, does not make her turn her back upon testimony that spending to much time and money on photo's makes then idols, just because there are photo's of her. These are the accusations of false lying prophets.

You should be careful yourself seekingHiswisdom, that you don't fall into the trap of bearing the false witness of others. None who bear false witness against another will inhabit heaven. Make sure you know for yourself that which you are professing or accusing, don't go down with another's ship. Are you now a prophet of God? A women says an angel told her that putting to much time and money into photographs of one's self is a form of idol worship, you say that is not true and that she got her warning against making photographs an idol from indians thinking photos steal ones soul. Did God reveal such to you, or are you guessing?

Anyone who places their eternity in the hands of any but Christ are lost souls, EGW said as much many times over. I don't know why you brought such up.

As far as the comments you have taken from others concerning Jupiter, yes there is no doubt life on Jupiter as well as other planets within our solar system. They belong however to dimensions humanity is not longer privy to since the fall. No doubt they can see and interact with the angels also which we cannot to see or hear from inside the box of our fallen world. Even scientists believe there are at least ten dimensions. When the Lord returns our eyes will be opened and we will see many things all around us we have not been aware of at present.

I will look into the amalgamation claim, I have addressed it before years ago, but do not remember all the details involved.

[Amo]

https://text.egwwritings.org/publicationtoc.php?bookCode=Amal&lang=en&collection=2&section=all

The above link is apparently all about the amalgamation issue. I don't have time right now to examine it, but you might want to seekingHiswisdom, to get more than one side of the claim or accusation.

[seekingHiswisdom]

Yes, I will get around to addressing that which you have gleaned from anti-EGW internet sites. It seems there is no end to EGW experts who have never really read her writings to begin with. Perhaps you are different as Beam claims to be, have you read much of EGW's writings? Her attackers on these boards are great at quoting her, and then making her testimony they quoted out to be what it was never meant to be. Then they ignore all of her writings quoted which do actually address their accusations because they contradict the same. This idol issue is maintained by ignoring the principles of what constitutes idol worship in order to maintain the idea that an idol is an actual material thing as apposed to the worship of a material thing by the individual. Anything can be made an idol by someone, while it never will be an idol for another. It is what is done with photographs or anything else that can make them an idol, not the thing itself. The childish raving of the false prophets on this issue, is to the effect that EGW did not understand this basic truth, and exclusively meant that photographs themsleves are idols, instead of people making them idols by putting to much time and money into them. These liars insist it is as they say, regardless of EGW's clear and concise testimony to the opposite effect. Now you wish to join them, so be it. They may ignore the following words of EGW for now which clarify that which they are deliberately obfuscating, but they will be brought back before them in the judgment as a testimony against their false witness.

Twisting EGW's words to mean that all photo's are idols, does not make her turn her back upon testimony that spending to much time and money on photo's makes then idols, just because there are photo's of her. These are the accusations of false lying prophets.

You should be careful yourself seekingHiswisdom, that you don't fall into the trap of bearing the false witness of others. None who bear false witness against another will inhabit heaven. Make sure you know for yourself that which you are professing or accusing, don't go down with another's ship. Are you now a prophet of God? A women says an angel told her that putting to much time and money into photographs of one's self is a form of idol worship, you say that is not true and that she got her warning against making photographs an idol from indians thinking photos steal ones soul. Did God reveal such to you, or are you guessing?

Anyone who places their eternity in the hands of any but Christ are lost souls, EGW said as much many times over. I don't know why you brought such up.

As far as the comments you have taken from others concerning Jupiter, yes there is no doubt life on Jupiter as well as other planets within our solar system. They belong however to dimensions humanity is not longer privy to since the fall. No doubt they can see and interact with the angels also which we cannot to see or hear from inside the box of our fallen world. Even scientists believe there are at least ten dimensions. When the Lord returns our eyes will be opened and we will see many things all around us we have not been aware of at present.

I will look into the amalgamation claim, I have addressed it before years ago, but do not remember all the details involved.

     have you read much of EGW's writings? 

As yet, not as much as I have of other people who have had their own personal inspired messages that has caused them to at minimum write about them or at best actually be responsible for starting another branch of a "Christian" religion.

But there is much available and as I can I shall.

I owe it to another quasi kindred soul... ie. woman.

    This idol issue is maintained by ignoring the principles of what constitutes idol worship in order to maintain the idea that an idol is an actual material thing as apposed to the worship of a material thing by the individual 

I will confess to being intrigued by the title of this thread. It is what made me search for pictures of herself. Just seems like a contradiction unless she specifically found nothing wrong with photographs

 But I have seen nothing in writing that would indicate that.

By things that I have read of her I know it was common for her to be "slain in the spirit", though her family did not call it that, they just describe it.  I am familiar with the appearances but have never experienced.... And it was during these times that she often got
her guidance.

HONESTLY... I believe this much more then Joseph Smith out smoking who knows what when he was first told all religions are bad.

But I also think it possible that if she had been exposed to talk of native Americans abhorring photographs it well could have been
in her mind and during some "experience" it manifested itself. And it came through in thought of idol worship, not losing a soul as she would not subscribe to that idea at all.  Not at all unlike a dream that is so vivid as to be believed but can be traced to something seen or heard in the recent past.

THAT IS NOT FALSELY ACCUSING HER OF ANYTHING.

But lets say I am.... Go right ahead and add it to my increasing list of no nos that will need to be answered for. I will own that also.

If you are happy following her. I am happy for you.

I lived 72 years... 60 in conscious awareness of following the guidelines of my church that has been a lie all of my life by what they believe and taught. And only recently learned about that.

I should not have said anything cause I have not taken the plank out of my own eye. I retract everything I said.
 

[beam]

Hi Seeking,  if you are interested Amo wrote the following: "Anything can be made an idol by someone, while it never will be an idol for another. It is what is done with photographs or anything else that can make them an idol, not the thing itself. The childish raving of the false prophets on this issue, is to the effect that EGW did not understand this basic truth, and exclusively meant that photographs themsleves are idols, instead of people making them idols by putting to much time and money into them."  He is in his writings making an excuse for Ellen White by saying she didn't understand the basic truth that he goes on to present.   The real problem with his analysis is that Ellen was only stating what the "instructor" told her.  In many of her "visions" she would say it was her "instructor" or she would precede her vision with "I was shown" or "my angel".  She wanted her readers to know that what she said or wrote was not her own doing it was her, in the case of photographs, instructor.   It was the instructor who told her that photographs are idols.  She could have bee as dumb as a box of rocks on the subject, but certainly, someone from Heaven would not tell her something that was not true.  The instructor bit made it sound official.

[seekingHiswisdom]

Hi Seeking,  if you are interested Amo wrote the following: "Anything can be made an idol by someone, while it never will be an idol for another. It is what is done with photographs or anything else that can make them an idol, not the thing itself. The childish raving of the false prophets on this issue, is to the effect that EGW did not understand this basic truth, and exclusively meant that photographs themsleves are idols, instead of people making them idols by putting to much time and money into them."  He is in his writings making an excuse for Ellen White by saying she didn't understand the basic truth that he goes on to present.   The real problem with his analysis is that Ellen was only stating what the "instructor" told her.  In many of her "visions" she would say it was her "instructor" or she would precede her vision with "I was shown" or "my angel".  She wanted her readers to know that what she said or wrote was not her own doing it was her, in the case of photographs, instructor.   It was the instructor who told her that photographs are idols.  She could have bee as dumb as a box of rocks on the subject, but certainly, someone from Heaven would not tell her something that was not true.  The instructor bit made it sound official.

For the sake of clarity to one who is not as smart, admittedly, as the rest of you or the resident board genius yes I am interested in reading , learning and trying to come to an understanding of where and why you all believe and feel as you do. (NOTE please, I did not say to sway my personal beliefs and what I have come to understand)

So I thank you for your explanation of what you believe Amo meant by writing what he did.

You say " She wanted her readers to know that what she said or wrote was not her own doing it was her, in the case of photographs, instructor."

I ask if that is not what every prophet ( I use that term loosely) claims. That they get their knowledge and ideas from above, or an angel, or even a spirit guide?

That should be considered standard operating procedure to be able to lead another in the direction toward God that one may be trying to do.

That is NO different , IMHO, then all the authors in the Holy Bible having claimed, or someone else claimed for them that what they wrote was inspired from God. And even supported by Jesus when He said " “It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.' ”

Marshall Applewhite believed he was instructed from above. David Koresh believed he was instructed from above. Jim Jones believe he was instructed from  above..... and they all had their respective followers.

So for me it is a given that they do believe this.

But where I have my difficulty is believing... and this is believing ANY religion now.... if she actually was told that about photographs. Or if it is something that came to mind only that she thought came from above?

We will never know.

If she truly, in her heart believed this and it was the use of a photograph that was at fault, why would she have them,, more then one, taken of herself knowing that it would confuse her followers without a solid explanation that could be carried down through the generations.

OR.... is it possible she had her photographs taken before she said the instructor told her?

IDK.... and have no time to check out dates right now....

Do you know? Does Amo know?

[beam]

Hi seeking, I wonder if you missed the point of my post to you.  Amo made an excuse for Ellen tell us she didn't understand.  The fact is that all ellen did was to parrot the instructors words.  the instructor said photographs are Idols nothing more and nothing less.  There are so many things that Ellen wrote that her followers have to cover.  I was a SDA for many years and during that time I learned many things that do not support Ellen's being a true prophet.

[seekingHiswisdom]

Hi seeking, I wonder if you missed the point of my post to you.  Amo made an excuse for Ellen tell us she didn't understand.  The fact is that all ellen did was to parrot the instructors words.  the instructor said photographs are Idols nothing more and nothing less.  There are so many things that Ellen wrote that her followers have to cover.  I was a SDA for many years and during that time I learned many things that do not support Ellen's being a true prophet.

No I did not miss it.

As to the excuse that " Amo made an excuse for Ellen tell us she didn't understand. "

If she was amiss on something like this, that she herself felt exempt from WHAT ELSE did she not understand?

I ask... Would God let someone carry a message that they did not fully understand as to be able to explain it if asked?

I wonder.

My understanding of a prophet is an individual who is regarded as being in contact by a divine being and speaks on that entity's behalf, serving as an intermediary with humans by delivering messages or teachings from the supernatural source to other people.

Her parroting what she says she heard would not diminish that title.

But unlike the men of old who wrote the "inspired" things of God, that were incorporated into the Holy Bible... while accounts may differ somewhat... they all back up each other.

My problem lies with any single individual who says my "instructor" said such and such.

It may be so but it is not provable, yet millions of people over the years have placed their ultimate eternity on what one woman said, that can not be proven, any more then it can be "proven" that God actually told Joseph Smith that all religions were bad and  "When Joseph Smith was 14 years old, he wanted to know which church he should join, so he asked God in sincere prayer. In response to this prayer, God the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ, appeared to Joseph and told him the true Church of Jesus Christ was not on the earth and They had chosen Joseph to restore it"
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/topics/joseph-smith/testimony?lang=eng

So we have 2 opposing people, in many ways.... neither with witness corroboration. Yet each with millions of followers.

For me, it is troubling.

[beam]

I agree.  The 19th century produced a bunch of "leaders".  Mary Baker Eddy, Taze Russell, Thomas and Alexander Campbell and Amy Semple Mcpherson to name a few.  The difference between all of these and Ellen White is that Ellen had a serious head injury when she was a child that more than likely cause her disturbed mind.

[Amo]

As yet, not as much as I have of other people who have had their own personal inspired messages that has caused them to at minimum write about them or at best actually be responsible for starting another branch of a "Christian" religion.

But there is much available and as I can I shall.

I owe it to another quasi kindred soul... ie. woman.

I will confess to being intrigued by the title of this thread. It is what made me search for pictures of herself. Just seems like a contradiction unless she specifically found nothing wrong with photographs

 But I have seen nothing in writing that would indicate that.

By things that I have read of her I know it was common for her to be "slain in the spirit", though her family did not call it that, they just describe it.  I am familiar with the appearances but have never experienced.... And it was during these times that she often got
her guidance.

HONESTLY... I believe this much more then Joseph Smith out smoking who knows what when he was first told all religions are bad.

But I also think it possible that if she had been exposed to talk of native Americans abhorring photographs it well could have been
in her mind and during some "experience" it manifested itself. And it came through in thought of idol worship, not losing a soul as she would not subscribe to that idea at all.  Not at all unlike a dream that is so vivid as to be believed but can be traced to something seen or heard in the recent past.

THAT IS NOT FALSELY ACCUSING HER OF ANYTHING.

But lets say I am.... Go right ahead and add it to my increasing list of no nos that will need to be answered for. I will own that also.

If you are happy following her. I am happy for you.

I lived 72 years... 60 in conscious awareness of following the guidelines of my church that has been a lie all of my life by what they believe and taught. And only recently learned about that.

I should not have said anything cause I have not taken the plank out of my own eye. I retract everything I said.

If agreeing with another's views regarding scriptural doctrine or principles equals being their follower, then anyone who has ever read the views of others regrading the same and agreed with those views, is their follower as well. That is going to include just about every bible believer. I invite you as I have many others to show us just what biblical doctrines or principles of the SDA denomination, originated with EGW, or cannot be found in scripture.

When you stated - 

so what inspired her to write such a lie?

you conclusively stated that she was a liar. Now, either she is a liar, or you are, or perhaps both. No way around it.

I supplied you, and all here, with conclusive statements from EGW concerning idol worship. To the effect that people make idols of many different things by placing them above God in their lives. This is what she believed and wrote concerning the same. Nevertheless, you and others choose to ignore this and insist she specifically contradicts her own testimony and stated beliefs regarding idols, and believes photographs themselves are in fact idols above and apart from what people do with them. This even though she specifically addresses spending to much time and money on them in her testimony of them being idols. This is what you have chosen to believe someone else believes, not what their own testimony regarding idols declares. This is just what people do with scripture all the time. They take some words of scripture they like and make them mean what they wish, while disregarding other scripture which addresses the same issue yet contradicts what they have chosen to believe. The argue against or ignore the scriptures which add more light to the topic. So be it. God will judge how all have handled His word, and the words of each other. Those found to be twisting the intent of God's words and those of others will be found false witnesses. Here is more for you to consider, from the pen of the one you are addressing.

COUNSELS ON STEWARDSHIP, PAGE 298

Chapter 58—A Plea for Economy

There should be no extravagance in building fine homes, in buying costly furniture, in indulging in worldly dress, or in providing luxurious food; but in everything let us think of the souls for whom Christ has died. Let selfishness and pride die. Let none continue to expend means to multiply pictures to be sent to their friends. Let us save every dollar that can be saved, that the matchless charms of Christ may be presented before the souls of the perishing.
Satan will suggest many ways in which you may expend money. But if it is spent for self-gratification,—for unnecessary things, no matter how trifling their cost,—it is not spent for the glory of God. Let us look well to this matter, and see if we are denying ourselves as we should. Are we making sacrifices, that we may send the light of truth to the lost? ...

STEPS TO CHRIST, PAGE 118

Thank God for the bright pictures which He has presented to us. Let us group together the blessed assurances of His love, that we may look upon them continually: The Son of God leaving His Father's throne, clothing His divinity with humanity, that He might rescue man from the power of Satan; His triumph in our behalf, opening heaven to men, revealing to human vision the presence chamber where the Deity unveils His glory; the fallen race uplifted from the pit of ruin into which sin had plunged it, and brought again into connection with the infinite God, and having endured the divine test through faith in our Redeemer, clothed in the righteousness of Christ, and exalted to His throne—these are the pictures which God would have us contemplate.

THE BIBLE ECHO

November 19, 1894

Christ's Mission of Love

[A discourse given on the camp ground at Ashfield, N.S.W., Oct 21, 1894.]
Mrs. E. G. White

Is there not enough in nature to reveal God's love, and draw our hearts to Him? Look at the lofty trees; look at the spires of grass that clothe our earth with its green velvet carpet; look at the flowers which our God has provided because He is a lover of the beautiful.
When I was in Colorado some years since, I visited an art gallery, and there were groups of people standing before the pictures as if entranced, and praising the human artist. At evening as I was walking through the town, I saw the glory of the sunset. The bright beams were shining upon the snowcapped mountains, and it seemed as if the portals of heaven were opened, and its glory were streaming through. Persons were continually passing along the street, but none looked at the sight. My companion and myself were gazing upon it in rapture. I could discern in it heaven's beauty; I could see heaven's glory shining from the gates ajar, that we might conceive the beauty of what was within. But the crowds did not look upon the scene. That is the way God is treated.
How many go out into the garden with their children, and as they point them to the beautiful flowers say, “This is an expression of the love of God to you”? This would lead their minds up through nature to nature's God. Would not this be far more profitable to your children than taking them to all the shows and amusements of a demoralizing nature that would absorb their attention so that they forget God?

HOMEWARD BOUND, PAGE 206

God Is Owner, July 1

This is an obligation that rests upon every human being. It has to do with the whole sphere of human activity. Whether we recognize it or not, we are stewards, supplied from God with talents and facilities and placed in the world to do a work appointed by Him.
Money is not ours; houses and grounds, pictures and furniture, garments and luxuries, do not belong to us. We are pilgrims, we are strangers. We have only a grant of those things that are necessary for health and life. . . . Our temporal blessings are given us in trust, to prove whether we can be entrusted with eternal riches. If we endure the proving of God, then we shall receive that purchased possession which is to be our own—glory, honor, and immortality.

THE BIBLE ECHO

January 14, 1901

“No Other Gods Before Me”

Every true child of God will be sifted as wheat, and in the sifting process every cherished pleasure which diverts the mind from God must be sacrificed. In many families the mantel-shelves, stands, and tables are filled with ornaments and pictures. Albums, filled with photographs of the family and the photographs of their friends, are placed where they will attract the attention of visitors. Thus the thoughts, which should be upon God and heavenly interests are brought down to common things. Is not this a species of idolatry? Should not the money thus spent have been used to bless humanity, to relieve the suffering, to clothe the naked, and to feed the hungry? Should it not have been placed in the Lord's treasury to advance His cause and build up His kingdom in the earth?
This matter is of great importance, and it is urged upon you to save from the sin of idolatry. Blessing would come to your souls if you would obey the word spoken by the Holy One of Israel, “Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.” Many are creating unnecessary cares and anxieties for themselves by devoting time and thought to the unnecessary ornaments with which their houses are filled. The power of God is needed to arouse them from this devotion; for to all intents and purposes it is idolatry.
He who searches the heart desires to win His people from every species of idolatry. Let the word of God, the blessed Book of Life, occupy the table now filled with useless ornaments. Spend your money in buying books which will be the means of enlightening the mind in regard to present truth. The time you waste in moving and dusting the multitudinous ornaments in your house, spend in writing a few lines to your friends, in sending papers or leaflets or little books to some one who knows not the truth. Grasp the word of the Lord as the treasure of infinite wisdom and love; this is the guide book which points out the path to heaven. It points us to the sin-pardoning Saviour, saying, “Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.” Oh, that you would search the Scriptures with prayerful hearts, and a spirit of surrender to God. O that you would search your hearts as with a lighted candle, and discover and break the finest thread that binds you to worldly habits, which divert the mind from God. Plead with God to show you every practice which draws your thoughts and affections from Him. God has given His holy law to man as His measure of character. By this law you may see and overcome every defect in your character. You may sever yourself from every idol, and link yourself to the throne of God by the golden chain of grace and truth. The apostle writes:
“Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good. Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another; not slothful in business, fervent in spirit; serving the Lord; rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer; distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality.” Romans 12:9-13.

If a picture is worth a thousand words, then what are those words saying? If we have a whole lot of pictures around the house, that's a whole lot of words. What are those words about? Today pictures are easy. They once required far more time and money to procure and exhibit, nevertheless, they still have much to say.

[Amo]

Hi seeking, I wonder if you missed the point of my post to you.  Amo made an excuse for Ellen tell us she didn't understand.  The fact is that all ellen did was to parrot the instructors words.  the instructor said photographs are Idols nothing more and nothing less.  There are so many things that Ellen wrote that her followers have to cover.  I was a SDA for many years and during that time I learned many things that do not support Ellen's being a true prophet.

You certainly have not shown us anything here so convincing but in your own mind apparently. There is no excuse for any of us, nor will there be one. We will all stand before God and either be covered by the saving blood of Christ or not. A that time, all issues will  be resolved, including this one. Either you and your's, or EGW will be exonerated while the other is condemned for bearing false witness. Or both will be condemned. These are the possibilities. I'm not making excuses for EGW, just pointing out your false witnessing.