Ellen and Her "Instructor" Concerning Photographs

[Amo]

Hi seeking, I wonder if you missed the point of my post to you.  Amo made an excuse for Ellen tell us she didn't understand.  The fact is that all ellen did was to parrot the instructors words.  the instructor said photographs are Idols nothing more and nothing less.  There are so many things that Ellen wrote that her followers have to cover.  I was a SDA for many years and during that time I learned many things that do not support Ellen's being a true prophet.

A little reader comprehension might help on this one. I didn't say EGW didn't understand.

[Amo]

No I did not miss it.

As to the excuse that " Amo made an excuse for Ellen tell us she didn't understand. "

If she was amiss on something like this, that she herself felt exempt from WHAT ELSE did she not understand?

I ask... Would God let someone carry a message that they did not fully understand as to be able to explain it if asked?

I wonder.

My understanding of a prophet is an individual who is regarded as being in contact by a divine being and speaks on that entity's behalf, serving as an intermediary with humans by delivering messages or teachings from the supernatural source to other people.

Her parroting what she says she heard would not diminish that title.

But unlike the men of old who wrote the "inspired" things of God, that were incorporated into the Holy Bible... while accounts may differ somewhat... they all back up each other.

My problem lies with any single individual who says my "instructor" said such and such.

It may be so but it is not provable, yet millions of people over the years have placed their ultimate eternity on what one woman said, that can not be proven, any more then it can be "proven" that God actually told Joseph Smith that all religions were bad and  "When Joseph Smith was 14 years old, he wanted to know which church he should join, so he asked God in sincere prayer. In response to this prayer, God the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ, appeared to Joseph and told him the true Church of Jesus Christ was not on the earth and They had chosen Joseph to restore it"
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/topics/joseph-smith/testimony?lang=eng

So we have 2 opposing people, in many ways.... neither with witness corroboration. Yet each with millions of followers.

For me, it is troubling.

More reader comprehension issues. EGW understood and expressed very well what she believed about idolatry as the many quotes I have supplied reveal. Her accusers on this thread simply choose not to apply those principles, since doing such does not support their accusation.

[beam]

More reader comprehension issues. EGW understood and expressed very well what she believed about idolatry as the many quotes I have supplied reveal. Her accusers on this thread simply choose not to apply those principles, since doing such does not support their accusation.

Then why did Ellen quote her "instructor" as saying that photographs are idols?   Why did sh deceive the flock by writing those words?

[Amo]

Then why did Ellen quote her "instructor" as saying that photographs are idols?   Why did sh deceive the flock by writing those words?

She didn't deceive anyone. She explained why they could be idols even in the quotes you supplied, you simply choose to ignore this, and then twist and mutilate her words to your own ends. Apparently, she had much greater insight than you do concerning what her instructor meant, and what constitutes idolatry. Emphasis in the following quotes is mine.

COUNSELS ON STEWARDSHIP, PAGE 26

Death to All Piety

Christ is our example. He gave His life as a sacrifice for us, and He asks us to give our lives as a sacrifice for others. Thus we may cast out the selfishness which Satan is constantly striving to implant in our hearts. This selfishness is death to all piety, and can be overcome only by manifesting love to God and to our fellow men. Christ will not permit one selfish person to enter the courts of heaven. No covetous person can pass through the pearly gates; for all covetousness is idolatry.—The Review and Herald, July 11, 1899.

COUNSELS ON STEWARDSHIP, PAGE 84

Robbing God

To have your name on the church book does not make you a Christian. You are to bring your gifts to the altar of sacrifice, cooperating with God to the utmost of your ability, that through you He may reveal the beauty of His truth. Withhold nothing from the Saviour. All is His. You would have nothing to give did He not first give to you.
Selfishness has come in, and has appropriated to itself that which belongs to God. This is covetousness, which is idolatry. Men monopolize that which God has lent them, as though it were their own property, to do with as they please. When their power to grasp wealth is gratified, they think that their possessions make them of value in the sight of God. This is a snare, a deception of Satan. What does outward pomp and show avail? What do men and women gain by pride and self-indulgence? “What shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?” Worldly treasure is fleeting. Only through Christ can we obtain eternal riches. The wealth that He gives is beyond all computation. Having found God, you are supremely rich in the contemplation of His treasure. “Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love Him.”

COUNSELS ON STEWARDSHIP, PAGE 295

Many spend considerable sums for photographs to give to their friends. Picture taking is carried to extravagant lengths, and encourages a species of idolatry. How much more pleasing to God it would be if all this means were invested in publications which would direct souls to Christ and the precious truths for this time! The money wasted on needless things would supply many a table with reading matter on present truth, which would prove a savor of life unto life.

MEDICAL MINISTRY, PAGE 147

God calls upon all who claim to be Christians to elevate the standard of righteousness, and to purify themselves even as He is pure. “Be ye holy in all manner of conversation.” “If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above.... Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with Him in glory. Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: for which things’ sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience.” “Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; as obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance;” for you are to walk in the light, while you have the light; “but as He which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.”—Letter 6a, 1890.

Simplicity in Furnishing

MEDICAL MINISTRY, PAGE 167

Less expensively furnished rooms than you desire will be in accordance with the work God has given us to do in these last days. Your ideas are not molded and fashioned by a true practical idea of what it means to walk humbly with God. You look upon appearance as the great means of lifting you up to success. This is a delusion. You seek to make an appearance that is not in any way appropriate to the work God has given you to do, an appearance which it would require a large sum of money to keep up. We cannot consent to have the rooms of the sanitarium furnished in accordance with the idolatry of the age, even if this will bring an increase of patronage. Christian influence is of more value than this.
A desire for outside appearance is like a canker which is ever eating into the vitals. Appearance is a merciless tyrant. You need to guard against your inclination for show and entertainment.

SPECIAL TESTIMONIES ON EDUCATION, PAGE 210

These faithful youth were cast into the fire, but God manifested his power for the deliverance of his servants. One like unto the Son of God walked with them in the midst of the flame, and when they were brought forth, not even the smell of fire had passed on them. “Then Nebuchadnezzar spake, and said, Blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego, who hath sent his angel, and delivered his servants that trusted in him, and have changed the king's word, and yielded their bodies, that they might not serve nor worship any god, except their own God.”
Thus these youth, imbued with the Holy Spirit, declared to the whole nation their faith, that He whom they worshiped was the only true and living God. This demonstration of their own faith was the most eloquent presentation of their principles. In order to impress idolaters with the power and greatness of the living God, his servants must reveal their own reverence for God. They must make it manifest that he is the only object of their honor and worship, and that no consideration, not even the preservation of life itself, can induce them to make the least concession to idolatry.

I have quoted many of EGW's statements regarding idols and idolatry, there are still more. You choose to ignore all else but the one you twist to your own end in identifying EGW as a liar, which depends solely upon ignoring everything else she has said about idolatry. As though that one statements contradicts all else. This is your delusion, not hers or mine or anyone else's that does not care to take it upon themselves.

[seekingHiswisdom]

Then why did Ellen quote her "instructor" as saying that photographs are idols?   Why did sh deceive the flock by writing those words?

This is precisely my question.

You know... she was not altogether wrong in this by any means. Today there are hundreds of thousands of people world wide that look upon photographs of stars and musicians and even politicians with stars in their eyes , lut in their hearts and worship coursing through them.

But the way she presented things is nothing but confusing.... It is as if she was saying "Do as I say, not as I do."

Amo said

     I have quoted many of EGW's statements regarding idols and idolatry, there are still more. You choose to ignore all else but the one you twist to your own end in identifying EGW as a liar, which depends solely upon ignoring everything else she has said about idolatry. As though that one statements contradicts all else. This is your delusion, not hers or mine or anyone else's that does not care to take it upon themselves.   

NO, she did that herself.

You provided Ellens statements regarding idolatry ..... good.

But she never clarified what others, beside myself , might find as a contrast.

When Jesus walked the earth He lived the life He preached. When questioned He explained.... often by parable but......

She should never have had a photograph taken. That one act makes her seem to be not a liar so much as arrogant above others .

 1 Timothy 2:12
12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.

Was written and incorporated into Holy Canon for a reason. Why?

By all understanding Ellen was a woman. An obviously very charismatic one to have people follow her.
Was Timothy wrong?

OH I am sure you are wondering about myself and why I post things here.

I can assure you I am not a prophet, nor am I here to teach anyone anything from God. As my username tells you I seek His wisdom.

    More reader comprehension issues. EGW understood and expressed very well what she believed about idolatry as the many quotes I have supplied reveal. Her accusers on this thread simply choose not to apply those principles, since doing such does not support their accusation.   

Reader comprehension issues. Same as the rest of the GC posts being debated in a hot and heavy manner.

  If agreeing with another's views regarding scriptural doctrine or principles equals being their follower, then anyone who has ever read the views of others regrading the same and agreed with those views, is their follower as well. That is going to include just about every bible believer. I invite you as I have many others to show us just what biblical doctrines or principles of the SDA denomination, originated with EGW, or cannot be found in scripture.   

"If agreeing with another's views regarding scriptural doctrine or principles equals being their follower, then anyone who has ever read the views of others regrading the same and agreed with those views, is their follower as well"

Seriously? 

"is their follower as well"

That would qualify as being a Christian. 

For the most part all the mainline protestant religions believe in the end goal. So yes, I follow them.... and I learn from them all...
including SDA.

And yes, I have a lot of issues with all of them... for man screws up pretty much everything he touches and no two people understand the same. You have been here long enough to know that surly.

I have not been a "single church" person since the mid 1980s.

Even Joseph  Smith's had a point or two... insistence that women wear long sleeves for modesty because that truth is born and evidenced today  in seeing too many bra straps and peeks in the side of a short sleeve.

BUt he was not infallible, and neither was Ellen.

NO church is 100% right and no church is 100% wrong.

And when one finds something oddly out about their church of choice, they should embrace the opportunity to know about it, and see what they can find out about it.

[Amo]

This is precisely my question.

You know... she was not altogether wrong in this by any means. Today there are hundreds of thousands of people world wide that look upon photographs of stars and musicians and even politicians with stars in their eyes , lut in their hearts and worship coursing through them.

But the way she presented things is nothing but confusing.... It is as if she was saying "Do as I say, not as I do."

Amo said

NO, she did that herself.

You provided Ellens statements regarding idolatry ..... good.

But she never clarified what others, beside myself , might find as a contrast.

When Jesus walked the earth He lived the life He preached. When questioned He explained.... often by parable but......

She should never have had a photograph taken. That one act makes her seem to be not a liar so much as arrogant above others .

 1 Timothy 2:12
12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.

Was written and incorporated into Holy Canon for a reason. Why?

By all understanding Ellen was a woman. An obviously very charismatic one to have people follow her.
Was Timothy wrong?

OH I am sure you are wondering about myself and why I post things here.

I can assure you I am not a prophet, nor am I here to teach anyone anything from God. As my username tells you I seek His wisdom.

Reader comprehension issues. Same as the rest of the GC posts being debated in a hot and heavy manner.

"If agreeing with another's views regarding scriptural doctrine or principles equals being their follower, then anyone who has ever read the views of others regrading the same and agreed with those views, is their follower as well"

Seriously? 

"is their follower as well"

That would qualify as being a Christian. 

For the most part all the mainline protestant religions believe in the end goal. So yes, I follow them.... and I learn from them all...
including SDA.

And yes, I have a lot of issues with all of them... for man screws up pretty much everything he touches and no two people understand the same. You have been here long enough to know that surly.

I have not been a "single church" person since the mid 1980s.

Even Joseph  Smith's had a point or two... insistence that women wear long sleeves for modesty because that truth is born and evidenced today  in seeing too many bra straps and peeks in the side of a short sleeve.

BUt he was not infallible, and neither was Ellen.

NO church is 100% right and no church is 100% wrong.

And when one finds something oddly out about their church of choice, they should embrace the opportunity to know about it, and see what they can find out about it.

Same argument built upon the same faulty premise. You presume EGW meant all photos are themsleves idols, regardless of how very much she wrote and explained about idols to the contrary. Even that which is quoted to the effect you are trying to purvey, states the reason they can be idols, to much time and money being spent upon them. You yourself admit of this truth yet deny it for EGW who expressed it so many times, and even in the quotes that are twisted by the deceived to mean what they wish. This is how deception is, those who choose to believe a lie, cannot see the truth right in front of their faces.

You also presume that EGW spent a whole lot of time and money producing photo's of herself. Or are you a professed prophet saying you know she did? If she did, she was hypocritical, if she didn't, you are promoting a lie. By the way, EGW was a selfish sinner, just like the rest of us. There is no question that she was a hypocrite, just like the rest of us. Prophets are selfish sinners just like the rest of us. None of them are or were perfect, and when they lift up the perfect standards of God, it is God they are lifting up not themselves.
When I or any other Christians lift up the standards of Christ, we are lifting up that which is far above us, not what we ourselves are claiming to be. He is the standard, we most certainly are not.

Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God So Loved the World 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Without question, someone taking a lot of photos of self or someone else and spending a lot of time and money doing so and displaying such, is lifting up something other than Christ. As you yourself admit. Why will you not allow for EGW to have meant the same, when she wrote and expressed the same so very many times? What motivates you to do such?
 

[seekingHiswisdom]

Same argument built upon the same faulty premise. You presume EGW meant all photos are themsleves idols, regardless of how very much she wrote and explained about idols to the contrary. Even that which is quoted to the effect you are trying to purvey, states the reason they can be idols, to much time and money being spent upon them. You yourself admit of this truth yet deny it for EGW who expressed it so many times, and even in the quotes that are twisted by the deceived to mean what they wish. This is how deception is, those who choose to believe a lie, cannot see the truth right in front of their faces.

You also presume that EGW spent a whole lot of time and money producing photo's of herself. Or are you a professed prophet saying you know she did? If she did, she was hypocritical, if she didn't, you are promoting a lie. By the way, EGW was a selfish sinner, just like the rest of us. There is no question that she was a hypocrite, just like the rest of us. Prophets are selfish sinners just like the rest of us. None of them are or were perfect, and when they lift up the perfect standards of God, it is God they are lifting up not themselves.
When I or any other Christians lift up the standards of Christ, we are lifting up that which is far above us, not what we ourselves are claiming to be. He is the standard, we most certainly are not.

Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God So Loved the World 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Without question, someone taking a lot of photos of self or someone else and spending a lot of time and money doing so and displaying such, is lifting up something other than Christ. As you yourself admit. Why will you not allow for EGW to have meant the same, when she wrote and expressed the same so very many times? What motivates you to do such?

What motivates me to do such

No matter what I would write you simply are incapable of understanding.

I am not calling Ellen a liar, but you do not even read or understand that.

I will say she was a poor communicator in some things. And that creates confusion to many.

You are clear on her meaning.

But you cannot read what I have written and understand me.

[beam]

Amo insists that I am a liar and Ellen didn't write that photographs are idoles.  I am going to repaste the OP statement that she wrote.   








SDAs like to dismiss Ellen's writing concerning photographs as being the cost back then.  The fact is that Ellen's angel told her that photographs are IDOLS and money should not be used to buy those idols.   Set aside the cost and consider the fact that the angel called the pictures idols.

During the night I was sorely distressed. A great burden rested upon me. I had been pleading
with God to work in behalf of His people. My attention was called to the money which they
have invested in photographs. I was taken from house to house, through the homes of our
people, and as I went from room to room, my Instructor said, “Behold the idols which
have accumulated!” {RH September 10, 1901, par. 1}

As I visited the homes of our people and our schools, I see that all the available space on
tables, what-nots, and mantelpieces is filled up with photographs. On the right hand and
on the left are seen the pictures of human faces. God desires this order of things to be
changed. Were Christ on earth, He would say, “Take these things hence.” I have
been instructed that these pictures are as so many idols,taking up the time and
thought which should be sacredly devoted to God. {RH September 10, 1901, par. 2}
These photographs cost money. Is it consistent for us, knowing the work that is to be
done at this time, to spend God’s money in producing pictures of our own faces and the
faces of our friends? Should not every dollar that we can spare be used in the upbuilding
of the cause of God? These pictures take money that should be sacredly devoted to God’s
service; and they divert the mind from the truths of God’s word. {RH September 10, [size=78%]1901, par. 3}[/size][/size][size=78%] [/size]
[/size]This making and exchanging photographs is a species of idolatry. [size=78%]Satan is doing
all he can to eclipse heaven from our view. Let us not help him by making picture-idols.
We need to reach a higher standard than these human faces suggest. The Lord says, “Thou
that they are to reflect His image. It is His likeness that is to be kept before the mind.
The words that are spoken are to be freighted with heavenly inspiration. {RH September 10,
1901, par. 4}

Why have SDAs completely ignored Ellen's "instructor"?   Why are the SDA magazines full of these idols?   

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[seekingHiswisdom]

Amo insists that I am a liar and Ellen didn't write that photographs are idoles.  I am going to repaste the OP statement that she wrote.   








SDAs like to dismiss Ellen's writing concerning photographs as being the cost back then.  The fact is that Ellen's angel told her that photographs are IDOLS and money should not be used to buy those idols.   Set aside the cost and consider the fact that the angel called the pictures idols.

During the night I was sorely distressed. A great burden rested upon me. I had been pleading
with God to work in behalf of His people. My attention was called to the money which they
have invested in photographs. I was taken from house to house, through the homes of our
people, and as I went from room to room, my Instructor said, “Behold the idols which
have accumulated!” {RH September 10, 1901, par. 1}

As I visited the homes of our people and our schools, I see that all the available space on
tables, what-nots, and mantelpieces is filled up with photographs. On the right hand and
on the left are seen the pictures of human faces. God desires this order of things to be
changed. Were Christ on earth, He would say, “Take these things hence.” I have
been instructed that these pictures are as so many idols,taking up the time and
thought which should be sacredly devoted to God. {RH September 10, 1901, par. 2}
These photographs cost money. Is it consistent for us, knowing the work that is to be
done at this time, to spend God’s money in producing pictures of our own faces and the
faces of our friends? Should not every dollar that we can spare be used in the upbuilding
of the cause of God? These pictures take money that should be sacredly devoted to God’s
service; and they divert the mind from the truths of God’s word. {RH September 10, [size=78%]1901, par. 3}[/size][/size][size=78%] [/size]
[/size]This making and exchanging photographs is a species of idolatry. [size=78%]Satan is doing
all he can to eclipse heaven from our view. Let us not help him by making picture-idols.
We need to reach a higher standard than these human faces suggest. The Lord says, “Thou
that they are to reflect His image. It is His likeness that is to be kept before the mind.
The words that are spoken are to be freighted with heavenly inspiration. {RH September 10,
1901, par. 4}

Why have SDAs completely ignored Ellen's "instructor"?   Why are the SDA magazines full of these idols?   

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I have been accused of calling Ellen a liar or that I am... which ever, it does not bother me cause neither is true....

I keep repeating I do not believe she was a liar. I do believe she was deceived in this. I personally believe that all " alleged" modern day prophets (including those back for 200 or 300 years are somewhat deceived with no evidence to corroborate what they are saying other then the listeners eager for enlightenment.

Your opening quote says... and this is from Ellen... "During the night I was sorely distressed. A great burden rested upon me. I had been pleading with God to work in behalf of His people. My attention was called to the money which they
have invested in photographs. I was taken from house to house, through the homes of our people, and as I went from room to room, my........."

She had been distressed and pleading and praying? with God to work on behalf of his people.........  This is not at all unlike those of us who pray nightly for God to take care of His people and our country, but not one of us... certainly not I... has come forward with a solution that was sent down that something we are doing or buying should not be done and the money from that should go to the church and to God's work....

It further states: "These photographs cost money. Is it consistent for us, knowing the work that is to be  done at this time, to spend God’s money in producing pictures of our own faces and the faces of our friends? Should not every dollar that we can spare be used in the upbuilding of the cause of God? These pictures take money that should be sacredly devoted to God’s
service; and they divert the mind from the truths of God’s word.

I had asked if Ellen had been told photos are or can be idols then why did she partake, and then I asked if anyone knew when she had hers taken? If before the instructor told her then no problem.

Of course, it is possible Ellen never paid a penny for any photos... that they were taken of her due to her standing.

But I notice the date on what you posted.... 1901... and then went looking and found this from 1905......

It bothers me.... and I AM NOT picking on her.

EVERY SINGLE RELIGION THAT PROFESSES CHRISTIANITY HAS ITS FAULTS. MINE LIKELY BEING THE WORST.

From Adventis Review

It shows White with her son William “Willie” C. White and his wife, May Lacey White, walking across the campus of what was then the newest Adventist college. The date 1905 is scrawled on the bottom left-hand corner of the print.

https://www.adventistreview.org/church-news/rare-photo-provides-a-walk-with-ellen-white-down-memory-lane

I think, though I do not speak for him that Amos trying to tell us she has been misquoted as she herself has said.

From Ellen
…Ellen White had been expressing concerns about Adventists quoting her writings and drawing conclusions that she did not intend.
https://lightbearers.org/blog/the-ellen-white-you-thought-you-knew/

That certainly can be quite understandable. It would upset me also. It does cause those here do not understand things I say and draw conclusions that were not intended.

Still  seems so odd that everyone who has founded a religion... Christian.... has been guided and told something different.

Ellen...  ... my hat is off to you. I just think you got some things wrong.

[beam]

Ellen...  ... my hat is off to you. I just think you got some things wrong.

Great perception,  Would not getting some things wrong make her a false prophet?

[seekingHiswisdom]

Great perception,  Would not getting some things wrong make her a false prophet?

NO... NOT AT ALL.

Let see if I can explain this understandable.

A prophet is an individual who is regarded as being in contact with a divine being and is said to speak on that entity's behalf.

A false prophet is one who falsely claims the gift of prophecy or divine inspiration, or to speak for God, or who makes such claims for evil ends.

From: Testing Prophets

"There are no perfect prophets. Even the Old Testament prophets got things wrong at times. God allows his prophets to make mistakes to keep them humble and to prevent the church from becoming too dependent on them."

http://kingwatch.co.nz/Prophetic_Ministry/testing_prophets.htm

This certainly means that Ellen WAS NOT a false prophet at all.  It means she was human.

It has not escaped me, not should it you that every church founded on the words of a "prophet" is basically different in what their prophets were told or "instructed."

To me this means that no single church  can be considered infallible.

Not the Roman Catholics, Not the mainline Protestants, Not the Mormons (Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints) . Not the Jehovah Witnesses, Not the c of C nor the C of E , and Not the Seventh Day Adventists..... NOT ONE.

But just as it is said above " God allows his prophets to make mistakes to keep them humble and to prevent the church from becoming too dependent on them" I believe he permits this within the church itself to keep people from becoming to dependent on the church and not focused on Him only.

[beam]

So, your conclusion is Ellen didn't lie.  I take a definite issue with your opinion.  She said her "instructor", who came here from Heaven, by the way, told her photographs are idols.   Instructors from Heaven lying???  Does that sound like something someone from Heaven would do???

When was the plan of salvation formulated?  This is not a trick question.   After I get your answer I will reveal something unbelievable that supposedly came from Heaven.   It just might lead to your changing your mind about true prophets revealing false information.   Oral Roberts, prophet, did some great things, but he certainly was anything but a true prophet. 

[seekingHiswisdom]

So, your conclusion is Ellen didn't lie.  I take a definite issue with your opinion.  She said her "instructor", who came here from Heaven, by the way, told her photographs are idols.   Instructors from Heaven lying???  Does that sound like something someone from Heaven would do???

When was the plan of salvation formulated?  This is not a trick question.   After I get your answer I will reveal something unbelievable that supposedly came from Heaven.   It just might lead to your changing your mind about true prophets revealing false information.   Oral Roberts, prophet, did some great things, but he certainly was anything but a true prophet.

I say Ellen herself did not lie. I do believe she believe what she said and therefore she did not lie.

Yes, agreed, she said her instructor told her photos are idols.

But I never said I believe Ellen was a prophet.  I also never said that I believe her instructor was from heaven.

A lot of people... have delusional experiences of seeing and hearing things in their lives.

Look at all the people who show up on GC from time to time claiming to have "word from above".

NOT a single one of them has been believed... Why was Ellen?  Why was Joseph Smith? Why was Marshall Applewhite?

Ellen had a horrible accident that she recounts here.

"While I was but a child, my parents removed from Gorham to Portland, Maine. Here, at the age of nine years, an accident happened to me which was to affect my whole life. In company with my twin sister and one of our schoolmates, I was crossing a common in the city of Portland, when a girl about thirteen years of age, becoming angry at some trifle, threw a stone that hit me on the nose. I was stunned by the blow, and fell senseless to the ground.

When consciousness returned, I found myself in a merchant's store. A kind stranger offered to take me home in his carriage, but I, not realizing my weakness, told him that I preferred to walk. Those present were not aware that my injury was so serious, and allowed me to go; but after walking only a few rods, I grew faint and dizzy. My twin sister and my schoolmate carried me home.

I have no recollection of anything further for some time after the accident. My mother said that I noticed nothing, but lay in a stupor for three weeks. No one but herself thought it possible for me to recover, but for some reason she felt that I would live."

http://www.ellenwhite.info/ellen_white_life_1a.htm

Now... I have read that when she had her "visions or visitations" it seemed as if she were slain in the Spirit. (DO I NEED TO EXPLAIN THAT?)

I have also read that she would suffer things similar to epileptic seizures.

We actually have no way to know who or what she experienced and if it was real or the result of her childhood accident.

BUT LET US ASSUME THAT SHE ACTUALLY DID HAVE AN INSTRUCTOR WHO SAID PHOTOGRAPHS WERE IDOLS.

This actually makes sense in that she was very disapproving of the Catholic Church and they, of course, have many statues and pictures that people pray to and light candles to ........ and wanting to be certain to distance her beliefs and church from the RCC would be logical in the elimination of anything that could be construed to be similar to them.

Perhaps the instructor regarded photographs as violation of the 2nd commandment.......

   “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My Commandments.

It could well be that she was instructed because of this or her mind gave her that idea.

But that still would not explain why she would have hers taken.... (Even though Amo has tried to explain that was not what she meant.)

I will finish my comments on her to say I do not think she lied deliberately. But I think it more then possible she  could have been deceived  from a damaged portion of her own brain or simply not understanding. Especially when I have read

In describing Ellen White’s mental state while in vision, Hodder and Couperus state respectively that she “lost consciousness”22 or “was unaware of her surroundings”. 23 The record also shows that although she was usually amnesic concerning some of the content of her visions immediately upon regaining consciousness, she was later able to recall what she had seen in great detail

https://whiteestate.org/legacy/issues-visions-html/

You ask.

      When was the plan of salvation formulated?  This is not a trick question.   After I get your answer I will reveal something unbelievable that supposedly came from Heaven.   It just might lead to your changing your mind about true prophets revealing false information.   Oral Roberts, prophet, did some great things, but he certainly was anything but a true prophet.       

Well, I am going to give you an answer that not a single other soul on GC or that you are likely to encounter will agree with because of the why I believe this.

I say the plan of salvation was formed at some point before Adam was created. Not before the beginning of creation because I am not one of those evolutionist believers or that the earth is necessarily trillions of years old. And I am definitely not a YE believer.

I believe Adam was the set point for salvation to begin.

As to the Oral Roberts prophet idea, agreed he was not but  yes he did some great things.. In fact, my ophthalmologist graduated from Oral Roberts University. And if you want him to he will pray with you before he operates.... which I appreciate.

[beam]

I say Ellen herself did not lie. I do believe she believe what she said and therefore she did not lie.

Yes, agreed, she said her instructor told her photos are idols.

But I never said I believe Ellen was a prophet.  I also never said that I believe her instructor was from heaven.

A lot of people... have delusional experiences of seeing and hearing things in their lives.

Look at all the people who show up on GC from time to time claiming to have "word from above".

NOT a single one of them has been believed... Why was Ellen?  Why was Joseph Smith? Why was Marshall Applewhite?

Ellen had a horrible accident that she recounts here.

"While I was but a child, my parents removed from Gorham to Portland, Maine. Here, at the age of nine years, an accident happened to me which was to affect my whole life. In company with my twin sister and one of our schoolmates, I was crossing a common in the city of Portland, when a girl about thirteen years of age, becoming angry at some trifle, threw a stone that hit me on the nose. I was stunned by the blow, and fell senseless to the ground.

When consciousness returned, I found myself in a merchant's store. A kind stranger offered to take me home in his carriage, but I, not realizing my weakness, told him that I preferred to walk. Those present were not aware that my injury was so serious, and allowed me to go; but after walking only a few rods, I grew faint and dizzy. My twin sister and my schoolmate carried me home.

I have no recollection of anything further for some time after the accident. My mother said that I noticed nothing, but lay in a stupor for three weeks. No one but herself thought it possible for me to recover, but for some reason she felt that I would live."

http://www.ellenwhite.info/ellen_white_life_1a.htm

Now... I have read that when she had her "visions or visitations" it seemed as if she were slain in the Spirit. (DO I NEED TO EXPLAIN THAT?)

I have also read that she would suffer things similar to epileptic seizures.

We actually have no way to know who or what she experienced and if it was real or the result of her childhood accident.

BUT LET US ASSUME THAT SHE ACTUALLY DID HAVE AN INSTRUCTOR WHO SAID PHOTOGRAPHS WERE IDOLS.

This actually makes sense in that she was very disapproving of the Catholic Church and they, of course, have many statues and pictures that people pray to and light candles to ........ and wanting to be certain to distance her beliefs and church from the RCC would be logical in the elimination of anything that could be construed to be similar to them.

Perhaps the instructor regarded photographs as violation of the 2nd commandment.......

   “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My Commandments.

It could well be that she was instructed because of this or her mind gave her that idea.

But that still would not explain why she would have hers taken.... (Even though Amo has tried to explain that was not what she meant.)

I will finish my comments on her to say I do not think she lied deliberately. But I think it more then possible she  could have been deceived  from a damaged portion of her own brain or simply not understanding. Especially when I have read

In describing Ellen White’s mental state while in vision, Hodder and Couperus state respectively that she “lost consciousness”22 or “was unaware of her surroundings”. 23 The record also shows that although she was usually amnesic concerning some of the content of her visions immediately upon regaining consciousness, she was later able to recall what she had seen in great detail

https://whiteestate.org/legacy/issues-visions-html/

I agree her head injury affected her brain.

You ask.

Well, I am going to give you an answer that not a single other soul on GC or that you are likely to encounter will agree with because of the why I believe this.

I say the plan of salvation was formed at some point before Adam was created. Not before the beginning of creation because I am not one of those evolutionist believers or that the earth is necessarily trillions of years old. And I am definitely not a YE believer.

I believe Adam was the set point for salvation to begin.

As to the Oral Roberts prophet idea, agreed he was not but  yes he did some great things.. In fact, my ophthalmologist graduated from Oral Roberts University. And if you want him to he will pray with you before he operates.... which I appreciate.

The following is another conflicting statement with what you believe and the Bible teaches.  Notice it was her angel this time.  I don't believe angels lie, do you?

 Sorrow filled heaven, as it was realized that man was lost ... I saw the lovely Jesus and beheld an expression of sympathy and sorrow upon His countenance. Soon I saw Him approach the exceeding bright light which enshrouded His Father. Said my accompanying angel, He is in close converse with the Father.... Three times He was shut in by the glorious light about the Father, and the third time He came from the Father, His person could be seen.... He then made known to the angelic host that a way of escape had been made for lost man. He told them that He had been pleading with His Father, and had offered to give His life a ransom, to take the sentence of death upon Himself ... Jesus bade the heavenly host be reconciled to the plan that His Father had accepted... Early Writings, pp. 149-151.

[seekingHiswisdom]

I agree her head injury affected her brain.
The following is another conflicting statement with what you believe and the Bible teaches.  Notice it was her angel this time.  I don't believe angels lie, do you?

 Sorrow filled heaven, as it was realized that man was lost ... I saw the lovely Jesus and beheld an expression of sympathy and sorrow upon His countenance. Soon I saw Him approach the exceeding bright light which enshrouded His Father. Said my accompanying angel, He is in close converse with the Father.... Three times He was shut in by the glorious light about the Father, and the third time He came from the Father, His person could be seen.... He then made known to the angelic host that a way of escape had been made for lost man. He told them that He had been pleading with His Father, and had offered to give His life a ransom, to take the sentence of death upon Himself ... Jesus bade the heavenly host be reconciled to the plan that His Father had accepted... Early Writings, pp. 149-151.

 Before I go on I will remind you that I said you and others will not agree
with what I have come to believe. This is not the thread, or even forum to get into that, and frankly I am not up to the task of defending what I see as I read the Holy Bible.. I am not filled with the Holy Spirit,according to some and therefore unable to read and understand without those here telling me what it says .  But that does not offset what I see as I study.

Here is a question to ask yourself.

Of what you copied and pasted Jesus said... or so Ellen believed

 "Sorrow filled heaven, as it was realized that man was lost ... I saw the lovely Jesus and beheld an expression of sympathy and sorrow upon His countenance. Soon I saw Him approach the exceeding bright light which enshrouded His Father. Said my accompanying angel, He is in close converse with the Father.... Three times He was shut in by the glorious light about the Father, and the third time He came from the Father, His person could be seen....

 He then made known to the angelic host that a way of escape had been made for lost man. He told them that He had been pleading with His Father, and had offered to give His life a ransom, to take the sentence of death upon Himself ... Jesus bade the heavenly host be reconciled to the plan that His Father had accepted... Early Writings"

QUESTION:

When exactly did Jesus beg the Father to allow him to die for humanity?

Was it during the observation of the 3 times she saw Jesus conversing with the Father during that specific vision,
as if it was currently at that moment agreed upon?
Or could it have been a flash back to the decision made and agreed upon that
may have been a coupe thousand years earlier?

Ellen had originally, before her visions, been a Methodist.

Methodists believe in the Holy Trinity.

The following influenced Ellen from a very young age.


The following are five beliefs that set Methodists apart from other Protestant Christians.

1. Logic and Reason: The most fundamental distinction of Methodist teaching is that people must use logic and reason in all matters of faith. Methodism has its roots in 18th century Anglicanism. Its founder was a Church of England minister, John Wesley (1703-1791), who, according to BBC, "sought to challenge the religious assumptions of the day. He and others met regularly for bible study and prayer, to receive communion and do acts of charity. They became known as "The Holy Club" or "Methodists" because of the methodical way in which they carried out their Christian faith."

2. Evangelism and mission: A unique feature of American Methodism is the observance of the season of Kingdomtide, which encompasses the last 13 weeks before Advent. During Kingdomtide, Methodists are encouraged to do charitable work and alleviate the suffering of the poor. Methodism is characterized by its emphasis on helping the poor and the average person. These ideals are put into practice by the establishment of hospitals, universities, orphanages, soup kitchens, and schools.

3. Covenant Services: Most Methodist churches annually follow the call of John Wesley for a renewal of their covenant with God. It is common for each congregation to hold an annual Covenant Service on the first Sunday of the year. The original covenant prayer given by John Wesley is still widely used, with minor modifications.

4. Inclusiveness: Methodists are convinced that building loving relationships with others through social service is a means of working towards the inclusiveness of God's love. Most Methodists teach that Christ died for all of humanity, not just for a limited group, and thus everyone is entitled to God's grace and protection. In theology, this view denies that God has pre-ordained an elect number of people to eternal bliss while others are doomed to hell no matter what they do in life.

5. Music: Methodism is known for its rich musical tradition. Singing is a big part of the Methodist Church service. Charles Wesley, brother of the church founder, was instrumental in writing some 6,000 hymns, and many other eminent hymn writers come from the Methodist tradition.

   
https://www.newsmax.com/fastfeatures/methodists-protestant-beliefs-christians/2015/04/02/id/635806/

QUESTION continued: So I go back to asking when did this "begging " of Jesus to God begin?

You say;

The following is another conflicting statement with what you believe and the Bible teaches.  Notice it was her angel this time.  I don't believe angels lie, do you?

Do angels lie?

Let's use the Bible to tell us:

Isaiah 14:12-1 King James Version (KJV)
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
"God created Satan as one of Heaven's most beautiful angels. Lucifer means "light-bearer" and was referred to as the "morning star." However, the devil was jealous and rebelled against God. Isaiah 14:12 says, "How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!" The devil's prideful revolt and greed for power turned him into a self-proclaimed enemy of God. He wanted to replace God in every way. Regardless of what name he is called, he is not on equal footing with God.
https://www.allaboutspirituality.org/fallen-angels-faq.htm

John 8:44 King James Version (KJV)
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

So for me that would be an unequivocable  YES and is biblically supported.

Ellen's recount of Jesus begging his Father to implement a plan to have Himself killed IS NOT

QUESTION: Assuming you believe in the Trinity... many here donot...
We have God the Father, God the Son.etc......

If you do not believe in the Trinity but just that God is God and Jesus is His son

WHO is Jesus' mother?

One final note about Ellen.... WHICH DOES NOT MATTER ONE IOTA. Just for those who may be reading here and not know.

Ellen racial mix was that of a Mulatto.

"James White along with his mulatto wife, Ellen White also moved westward to Saratoga, to Rochester, New York to Ohio on onward to Battle Creek, Michigan where they lived among the Colored people. [p. 12]"


[Ellen] could relate with the plight of the mulatto and slave groups for these were her people. [p. 13]

https://whiteestate.org/legacy/issues-genealogy-html/

BTW... appears she was baptised at age 14

In 1840, at age 12, her family became involved with the Millerite movement. As she attended William Miller's lectures, she felt guilty for her sins and was filled with terror about being eternally lost. She describes herself as spending nights in tears and prayer and being in this condition for several months. On June 26, 1842, she was baptized by John Hobart in Casco Bay in Portland, Maine, and eagerly awaited Jesus to come again.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellen_G._White

So Beam: I know you are disagreeing with me. Most do. It is alright.....

But I thank you for these exchanges because since looking into Ellen's background.. I have developed an immense respect for her.

I did not say I believe her to be a prophet. But I do respect her. She was working as a minority of race as well as the handicap of gender. That says a lot.

[beam]

Ellen wrote in other places that the plan of salvation was formulated before the foundation of the Earth.  She at first wrote a false account in Early Writings and later wrote the truth.  I have to wonder how many people were influenced by the writing in Early Writings.


Ellen and flock early on did not believe in the Trinity according to historians.  I stopped studying her writings when I found that she plagiarized much of her writings and actually lied about having visions.  I am so thankful that I was able to see the real truth and that I am no longer associated.

[Amo]

Amo insists that I am a liar and Ellen didn't write that photographs are idoles.  I am going to repaste the OP statement that she wrote.   


SDAs like to dismiss Ellen's writing concerning photographs as being the cost back then.  The fact is that Ellen's angel told her that photographs are IDOLS and money should not be used to buy those idols.   Set aside the cost and consider the fact that the angel called the pictures idols.

During the night I was sorely distressed. A great burden rested upon me. I had been pleading
with God to work in behalf of His people. My attention was called to the money which they
have invested in photographs. I was taken from house to house, through the homes of our
people, and as I went from room to room, my Instructor said, “Behold the idols which
have accumulated!” {RH September 10, 1901, par. 1}

As I visited the homes of our people and our schools, I see that all the available space on
tables, what-nots, and mantelpieces is filled up with photographs. On the right hand and
on the left are seen the pictures of human faces. God desires this order of things to be
changed. Were Christ on earth, He would say, “Take these things hence.” I have
been instructed that these pictures are as so many idols,taking up the time and
thought which should be sacredly devoted to God. {RH September 10, 1901, par. 2}
These photographs cost money. Is it consistent for us, knowing the work that is to be
done at this time, to spend God’s money in producing pictures of our own faces and the
faces of our friends? Should not every dollar that we can spare be used in the upbuilding
of the cause of God? These pictures take money that should be sacredly devoted to God’s
service; and they divert the mind from the truths of God’s word. {RH September 10, [size=78%]1901, par. 3}[/size][/size][size=78%] [/size]
[/size]This making and exchanging photographs is a species of idolatry. [size=78%]Satan is doing
all he can to eclipse heaven from our view. Let us not help him by making picture-idols.
We need to reach a higher standard than these human faces suggest. The Lord says, “Thou
that they are to reflect His image. It is His likeness that is to be kept before the mind.
The words that are spoken are to be freighted with heavenly inspiration. {RH September 10,
1901, par. 4}

Why have SDAs completely ignored Ellen's "instructor"?   Why are the SDA magazines full of these idols?   

[/size][size=0.85em]


Report to moderator    72.161.41.6[/size][size=0.85em][/font]


[/color]Report to moderator    72.161.41.6

[/size][/b]

We are not the one's ignoring things, you are.

THE REVIEW AND HERALD

September 10, 1901

“No Other Gods Before Me”

Mrs. E. G. White
During the night I was sorely distressed. A great burden rested upon me. I had been pleading with God to work in behalf of His people. My attention was called to the money which they have invested in photographs. I was taken from house to house, through the homes of our people, and as I went from room to room, my Instructor said, “Behold the idols which have accumulated!”
As I visited the homes of our people and our schools, I see that all the available space on tables, what-nots, and mantelpieces is filled up with photographs. On the right hand and on the left are seen the pictures of human faces. God desires this order of things to be changed. Were Christ on earth, He would say, “Take these things hence.” I have been instructed that these pictures are as so many idols, taking up the time and thought which should be sacredly devoted to God.
These photographs cost money. Is it consistent for us, knowing the work that is to be done at this time, to spend God's money in producing pictures of our own faces and the faces of our friends? Should not every dollar that we can spare be used in the upbuilding of the cause of God? These pictures take money that should be sacredly devoted to God's service; and they divert the mind from the truths of God's word.This making and exchanging photographs is a species of idolatry. Satan is doing all he can to eclipse heaven from our view. Let us not help him by making picture-idols. We need to reach a higher standard than these human faces suggest. The Lord says, “Thou shalt have no other gods before me.” Those who claim to believe in Christ need to realize that they are to reflect His image. It is His likeness that is to be kept before the mind. The words that are spoken are to be freighted with heavenly inspiration.

You choose to ignore the reasons given for these photos to be considered idols. You insist EGW and the angel are saying all photos are idols even though as one part of the quote conclusively states, we are not to help Satan by "making" picture idols. We make them idols when we put to much time and money into them, directing peoples attention to ourselves and or families or whatever, rather than God in Christ Jesus. As I have stated over and over again, you are the one ignoring what is right in front of your face, that you may bear false witness and spread your lies. So be it.

[Amo]

Ellen wrote in other places that the plan of salvation was formulated before the foundation of the Earth.  She at first wrote a false account in Early Writings and later wrote the truth.  I have to wonder how many people were influenced by the writing in Early Writings.


Ellen and flock early on did not believe in the Trinity according to historians.  I stopped studying her writings when I found that she plagiarized much of her writings and actually lied about having visions.  I am so thankful that I was able to see the real truth and that I am no longer associated.

Same old broken record lies and crap. As though God actually allowing events to play out and explaining things along the way, equals, He didn't know about it to begin with. You have rejected truth and now because of this, simply cannot any longer see it right in front of your face. You draw illogical and false conclusions because your reasoning is damaged by the rejection of truth.

As I have already pointed out several times. If God wouldn't bother allowing for the acting out and explanation of the events connected with His creations, He would not bother ever creating anything, since without question He already knows the future of all His creations. Nevertheless here we are, the creation, fall, and God's redemption all playing out and being explained to His own by Him as events unfold. Your perception is warped by rejection of the truth.

Here we are, bring forth your proof of plagiarizing, rejection of the Father, Son, and or Holy spirit, and lying about visions. I find your proofs to be very lacking as such at all.

[beam]

Same old broken record lies and crap. As though God actually allowing events to play out and explaining things along the way, equals, He didn't know about it to begin with. You have rejected truth and now because of this, simply cannot any longer see it right in front of your face. You draw illogical and false conclusions because your reasoning is damaged by the rejection of truth.

When backed into a corner spewing hatefulness is your only defense albeit the poorest way. 

As I have already pointed out several times. If God wouldn't bother allowing for the acting out and explanation of the events connected with His creations, He would not bother ever creating anything, since without question He already knows the future of all His creations. Nevertheless here we are, the creation, fall, and God's redemption all playing out and being explained to His own by Him as events unfold. Your perception is warped by rejection of the truth.

Oh, so now her explanation is a play?   A play that happened after man had fallen.  Really a stupid way to defend what is not defendable.

Here we are, bring forth your proof of plagiarizing, rejection of the Father, Son, and or Holy spirit, and lying about visions. I find your proofs to be very lacking as such at all.

And I find your head buried in the sand concerning all the proof we have that she certainly did plagiarize big time.

[seekingHiswisdom]

So, your conclusion is Ellen didn't lie.  I take a definite issue with your opinion.  She said her "instructor", who came here from Heaven, by the way, told her photographs are idols.   

She said......... HE SAID. Can you prove to me her instructor did not say that?

Better yet ........YOU prove to me that her instructor came from Heaven.

We had 3 children who witnessed, more than once, the woman who gave birth to Jesus, by the name of Mary, appear to these 3 children in 1917. 102 years ago.

Between May and October of 1917 three shepherd children, Lucia Santos and her cousins Jacinta and Francisco Marto, reported visions of a luminous lady believed to be the Virgin Mary. She appeared to the children in the Cova da Iria fields outside the hamlet of Aljustrel near Fatima, Portugal. She appeared to them on the 13th day of each month at approximately noon.

Then , in order to prove her being real she performed what has been referred to as a miracle.

"The story of a famous miracle in Fátima, Portugal, began in May 1917, when three children (ages 7, 9, and 10) claimed to have encountered the Virgin Mary on their way home from tending a flock of sheep. The oldest girl, Lucia, was the only one to speak to her, and Mary told the children that she would reappear to them on the thirteenth day of the next six months. She then vanished.

It was Mary's final appearance, on Oct. 13, 1917, that became the most famous. In his book "Looking for a Miracle," Joe Nickell states that "an estimated 70,000 people were in attendance at the site, anticipating the Virgin's final visit and with many fully expecting that she would work a great miracle. As before, the figure appeared, and again only to the children. Identifying herself as 'the Lady of the Rosary,' she urged repentance and the building of a chapel at the site. After predicting an end to [World War I] and giving the children certain undisclosed visions, the lady lifted her hands to the sky. Thereupon Lucia exclaimed, 'The sun!' As everyone gazed upward, and saw that a silvery disc had emerged from behind clouds, they experienced what is known [as] a 'sun miracle'."

Not everyone reported the same thing; some present claimed they saw the sun dance around the heavens; others said the sun zoomed toward Earth in a zigzag motion that caused them to fear that it might collide with our planet (or, more likely, burn it up). Some people reported seeing brilliant colors spin out of the sun in a psychedelic, pinwheel pattern, and thousands of others present didn't see anything unusual at all."

https://www.livescience.com/29290-fatima-miracle.html

So,here we have 3 children that Mary prophesied to and spoke with and instructed.

Followed up by many who actually saw something happen with the sun.

I am the farthest thing on the boards from a Catholic apologist.

Not because I do not believe that Mary did not appear to these children, but I believe that man, through the centuries, has gotten more wrong in that religion then they got right.

I only bring this up because we have more then a single person witnessing something happening and more then one hearing instructions.

Unlike Ellen who would go into a seizure, or perhaps a trance and her nameless instructor talked only to her .

Even, Joseph Smith... who may well have been smoking whatever when he first believed he was hearing from an angel of God, had some kind of a Golden Tablet that he, himself, undertook todecipher..... before they disappeared to never be seen again...

At least ............

"Joseph Smith was careful to obey the command from the Lord that he not show the plates to others. As he translated the Book of Mormon, Joseph learned that special witnesses would be called to bear testimony of the ancient record written on metal plates. He was quite relieved when he was permitted to show the plates to several witnesses. Those witnesses were then commanded to testify of their experience to others and to write their testimonies concerning the Book of Mormon."
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/new-era/2007/07/what-did-the-golden-plates-look-like?lang=eng

I'm not discounting anyone who has , or claims to have,a vision or instruction from above....

[seekingHiswisdom]

Ellen wrote in other places that the plan of salvation was formulated before the foundation of the Earth.  She at first wrote a false account in Early Writings and later wrote the truth.  I have to wonder how many people were influenced by the writing in Early Writings.


Ellen and flock early on did not believe in the Trinity according to historians.  I stopped studying her writings when I found that she plagiarized much of her writings and actually lied about having visions.  I am so thankful that I was able to see the real truth and that I am no longer associated.

Ellen wrote in other places that the plan of salvation was formulated before the foundation of the Earth.  She at first wrote a false account in Early Writings and later wrote the truth.  I have to wonder how many people were influenced by the writing in Early Writings.

What DO YOU believe to be the truth?

Yes, I find it troublesome that one changes their mind after having talked of being told from an instructor.

Or were her early writings based on what she read and studied herself and not from the Instructor?

As to how many people were influenced by her early writings....

First: Does it matter?

Next: Did she teach anything that would be anti Jesus or Anti God?

If she wrote of wrong things, as she interpreted what she thought she was told and people got it wrong... SO WHAT.

As long as God/Jesus were the center of their lives what else mattered.

If folks were following her, and had properfaith within their hearts, it should not matter because I firmly believe that God would know these folks and that their heart and faith were seeking only Him/Them.

As to her stop believing in the Trinity....

Originally Methodist ( who believes) seems natural to fall away when you feel you have knowledge they didn't.

I see no problem with those that originally believed even if she herself was wrong.

If you do not believe those who are your spiritual believers then what do you believe in?

I know... those here will say the Bible. I agree.YOU DO NOT need a church, you need God/Jesus..

[Amo]

Ellen wrote in other places that the plan of salvation was formulated before the foundation of the Earth.  She at first wrote a false account in Early Writings and later wrote the truth.  I have to wonder how many people were influenced by the writing in Early Writings.

What DO YOU believe to be the truth?

Yes, I find it troublesome that one changes their mind after having talked of being told from an instructor.

Or were her early writings based on what she read and studied herself and not from the Instructor?

As to how many people were influenced by her early writings....

First: Does it matter?

Next: Did she teach anything that would be anti Jesus or Anti God?

If she wrote of wrong things, as she interpreted what she thought she was told and people got it wrong... SO WHAT.

As long as God/Jesus were the center of their lives what else mattered.

If folks were following her, and had properfaith within their hearts, it should not matter because I firmly believe that God would know these folks and that their heart and faith were seeking only Him/Them.

As to her stop believing in the Trinity....

Originally Methodist ( who believes) seems natural to fall away when you feel you have knowledge they didn't.

I see no problem with those that originally believed even if she herself was wrong.

If you do not believe those who are your spiritual believers then what do you believe in?

I know... those here will say the Bible. I agree.YOU DO NOT need a church, you need God/Jesus..

How do you and Beam know that EGW changed her mind? How do you know what she believed or not before the vision she shared? How does relating the details of the vision concerning events which transpired in heaven, equal EGW believing the plan of salvation was an afterthought? It does not. Presumption alone is the basis for this mindset. Presumption based upon the thoughts of an already prejudiced mind I might add, with the exact intention of accusing EGW of being a false prophet.

Sharing the vision does not equal EGW sharing her thoughts on whether the plan of salvation was an afterthought or not. She simply shared events that she was told took place. The mentality applied is equivalent to accusing Christians who preach the gospel to the effect that Christ was crucified for our salvation, means they think such was an after thought, since the event actually did transpire even though God already knew the end from the beginning. Why do you both continue to completely ignore the obvious faulty premise of this false accusation? As though God's foreknowledge means events concerning that foreknowledge have no need to happen and do not happen. This is foolishness. We are all living these events.

[Amo]

When backed into a corner spewing hatefulness is your only defense albeit the poorest way. 
Oh, so now her explanation is a play?   A play that happened after man had fallen.  Really a stupid way to defend what is not defendable.
And I find your head buried in the sand concerning all the proof we have that she certainly did plagiarize big time.

Now your acting like a lefty progressive. As though stating some facts is hatefulness, you forgot to add racist.

If what she described can only be a play because of God's foreknowledge, then your entire life and all existence and experience by created beings is just an act because of God's foreknowledge. Your accusation and argument is built upon extremely faulty premise.

Put up, bring it. Show us the plagiarism, don't just spew accusations.

[beam]

Hi Amo, There is plenty of ammunition concerning Ellen's plagiarism and the excuses abound.  Since you have already placed your head in the sand concerning all the other instances where she wrote untruths it would be a waste of my time to post her stealing from other authors. http://www.bible.ca/7-WL-exhibits-I-was-shown.htm

[seekingHiswisdom]

How do you and Beam know that EGW changed her mind? How do you know what she believed or not before the vision she shared? How does relating the details of the vision concerning events which transpired in heaven, equal EGW believing the plan of salvation was an afterthought? It does not. Presumption alone is the basis for this mindset. Presumption based upon the thoughts of an already prejudiced mind I might add, with the exact intention of accusing EGW of being a false prophet.

Sharing the vision does not equal EGW sharing her thoughts on whether the plan of salvation was an afterthought or not. She simply shared events that she was told took place. The mentality applied is equivalent to accusing Christians who preach the gospel to the effect that Christ was crucified for our salvation, means they think such was an after thought, since the event actually did transpire even though God already knew the end from the beginning. Why do you both continue to completely ignore the obvious faulty premise of this false accusation? As though God's foreknowledge means events concerning that foreknowledge have no need to happen and do not happen. This is foolishness. We are all living these events.

This you wrote in reply to my

    Ellen wrote in other places that the plan of salvation was formulated before the foundation of the Earth.  She at first wrote a false account in Early Writings and later wrote the truth.  I have to wonder how many people were influenced by the writing in Early Writings.

What DO YOU believe to be the truth?

Yes, I find it troublesome that one changes their mind after having talked of being told from an instructor.

Or were her early writings based on what she read and studied herself and not from the Instructor?

As to how many people were influenced by her early writings....

First: Does it matter?

Next: Did she teach anything that would be anti Jesus or Anti God?

If she wrote of wrong things, as she interpreted what she thought she was told and people got it wrong... SO WHAT.

As long as God/Jesus were the center of their lives what else mattered.

If folks were following her, and had properfaith within their hearts, it should not matter because I firmly believe that God would know these folks and that their heart and faith were seeking only Him/Them.

As to her stop believing in the Trinity....

Originally Methodist ( who believes) seems natural to fall away when you feel you have knowledge they didn't.

I see no problem with those that originally believed even if she herself was wrong.

If you do not believe those who are your spiritual believers then what do you believe in?

I know... those here will say the Bible. I agree.YOU DO NOT need a church, you need God/Jesus..       

If you will look carefully where you quoted me from you will see it was in reply to Beam. NOT my beliefs. However:

If she changed her mind after first believing an instructor told her something, then she got it wrong in the first place.

Do I know specifically what she changed her mind on. No, nut

That tells me she would be no prophet and the likelihood that her injury as a child was affecting something in her brain.

God does not make mistakes and God does not mislead people.

She was a Methodist before she was a "prophet". Before she was visited by her instructor. After such she changed .

As to her thoughts on salvation....

I have read this.



Origins of the Apparent Contradictions:


The original list of alleged contradictions was compiled by two gentlemen whom we will simply refer to as "Brothers D&D" to protect their identities (these letters do not appear in either of their real initials).  It is our hope that these two men will one day reconsider their position and we do not wish to do anything to jeopardize that.   We advise the reader to claim John 16:13 ("Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth") as you go over this list. All quotes from both Ellen White and the Bible are shown here exactly as they are on the original list.

https://whiteestate.org/legacy/issues-contradictions-html/

The 53 Questions:
1. WAS THE PLAN OF SALVATION MADE AFTER THE FALL?

 EGW: YES "The kingdom of grace was instituted immediately after the fall of man, when a plan was devised for the redemption of the guilty race" (Great Controversy, p. 347).

 BIBLE: NO    "For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you
were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, but with the
precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake" (1 Peter 1:18-20).

 BIBLE: NO    "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in
his sight" (Ephesians 1:4).

Here D&D quote Ellen White saying that the "kingdom of grace" was instituted and the plan was "devised" immediately after the fall.

What they failed to quote was Ellen White's statements that the plan had actually existed long before that (see Desire of Ages, p. 22, third paragraph in particular):  "The plan for our redemption was not an afterthought, a plan formulated after the fall of Adam..."  And this statement in the same book, p. 147: "...every act of Christ's life on earth was in fulfillment of the plan that had existed from the days of eternity."  There are numerous statements like this in her writings.  To get a balanced view of what Ellen White really said about this issue (and in its proper context) we recommend the chapter entitled "The Plan of Redemption" in the book Patriarchs and Prophets.

The Bible has several texts like the ones listed above placing the Plan of Salvation before the creation of the world, but Revelation 13:8 is a bit ambiguous and says that Jesus was slain at the foundation of the world not before (KJV, NKJV, NIV, AMP, Weymouth, Young's, LTV).  Technically Christ was slain "from the days of eternity" was He not?  Did the prophet John make a mistake?  No.  The plan had to go into effect at the Fall of Adam and Eve, but when did Infinite Wisdom foresee sin and the need for a Savior?  From the days of eternity, of course.

(Some may point out that some versions of the Bible use "the foundation of the world" to refer to when the Lamb's Book was written as opposed to when the Lamb was slain.  However, the majority of the Bible scholars who put together the English Bible translations did not come to this conclusion.  Of the major Bible versions King James,  New King James, NIV, AMP, Weymouth, Young's, and LTV (Green) all point to "slain;" (the NIV says in the margin that it could be written the other way, and the AMP renders it both ways in the text itself).  NASB has it pointing to the "Book," with the margin stating that it could be referring to "slain."  The RSV and Darby do word it so that the "foundation" is referring to the writing in the Lamb's Book.  Yet even without this text, Ellen White's statements don't contradict anything the Bible says in this regard.  She agreed that the plan had been in existence from "the days of eternity.")

The problem here has nothing to do with Ellen White, but with our finite minds trying to grasp how a God who knows the future ever "plans" anything and when?  After all, no matter what He does, He already knew He was going to do it, so when did He really decide to do anything?  God's ways are "past finding out." (Job 9:10)  This infinite subject is too much for the human mind.  We're talking about Omniscience here.  There are many examples in the Bible where God does something, and it seems it is not what He had originally "planned" to do.  For just a small sample:

— Casting Satan out of heaven (Rev. 12:7-9).  (When was that plan "devised"?)
— God Rejecting King Saul (1 Sam. 16:1)
— The plan in heaven as to how to get King Ahab to perish at Ramothgilead (1 Kings 22:19-22).
— God deciding not to do what He originally planned to do to the evil man or nation that repents (Jer. 26:3; 18:8).
— God deciding to answer the prayers of those who persevere in their petitions (Luke 18:7,8; 11:5-9).
— God deciding to destroy the earth with a flood (Gen. 6:6).
— God allowing King Hezekiah to live an additional 15 years after telling him he was about to die (2 Kings 20:1-6).

Now, when were these plans "devised"?  God knew "from the days of eternity" exactly what He was going to do, and when He would do it.  It is hard for us to understand how God can "make" any plans while already knowing the future perfectly.  This is not a contradiction at all, but rather a subject that simply cannot be explained by (or to) mere human beings.

____________________________________________ .
It is incomplete statements that either are the truth of what she truly believed or would be misleading to those who heard assuming suce came from above.

Afterthought........... Never said that.  But if she had.... that does not fall in line with what is quoted about her above.

You will note that it took 2 brothers to piece this together to "explain" her.

But I will say, I just do not see her being a prophet the same way you do.

She was, however, a heck of a woman.

[seekingHiswisdom]

Now your acting like a lefty progressive. As though stating some facts is hatefulness, you forgot to add racist.

If what she described can only be a play because of God's foreknowledge, then your entire life and all existence and experience by created beings is just an act because of God's foreknowledge. Your accusation and argument is built upon extremely faulty premise.

Put up, bring it. Show us the plagiarism, don't just spew accusations.

Well, just because you are an anti-Trumper does not give you license to bring up the race card.

There has been nothing in these posts that would indicate that .

[Amo]

This you wrote in reply to my

If you will look carefully where you quoted me from you will see it was in reply to Beam. NOT my beliefs. However:

If she changed her mind after first believing an instructor told her something, then she got it wrong in the first place.

Do I know specifically what she changed her mind on. No, nut

That tells me she would be no prophet and the likelihood that her injury as a child was affecting something in her brain.

God does not make mistakes and God does not mislead people.

She was a Methodist before she was a "prophet". Before she was visited by her instructor. After such she changed .

As to her thoughts on salvation....

I have read this.



Origins of the Apparent Contradictions:


The original list of alleged contradictions was compiled by two gentlemen whom we will simply refer to as "Brothers D&D" to protect their identities (these letters do not appear in either of their real initials).  It is our hope that these two men will one day reconsider their position and we do not wish to do anything to jeopardize that.   We advise the reader to claim John 16:13 ("Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth") as you go over this list. All quotes from both Ellen White and the Bible are shown here exactly as they are on the original list.

https://whiteestate.org/legacy/issues-contradictions-html/

The 53 Questions:
1. WAS THE PLAN OF SALVATION MADE AFTER THE FALL?

 EGW: YES "The kingdom of grace was instituted immediately after the fall of man, when a plan was devised for the redemption of the guilty race" (Great Controversy, p. 347).

 BIBLE: NO    "For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you
were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, but with the
precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake" (1 Peter 1:18-20).

 BIBLE: NO    "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in
his sight" (Ephesians 1:4).

Here D&D quote Ellen White saying that the "kingdom of grace" was instituted and the plan was "devised" immediately after the fall.

What they failed to quote was Ellen White's statements that the plan had actually existed long before that (see Desire of Ages, p. 22, third paragraph in particular):  "The plan for our redemption was not an afterthought, a plan formulated after the fall of Adam..."  And this statement in the same book, p. 147: "...every act of Christ's life on earth was in fulfillment of the plan that had existed from the days of eternity."  There are numerous statements like this in her writings.  To get a balanced view of what Ellen White really said about this issue (and in its proper context) we recommend the chapter entitled "The Plan of Redemption" in the book Patriarchs and Prophets.

The Bible has several texts like the ones listed above placing the Plan of Salvation before the creation of the world, but Revelation 13:8 is a bit ambiguous and says that Jesus was slain at the foundation of the world not before (KJV, NKJV, NIV, AMP, Weymouth, Young's, LTV).  Technically Christ was slain "from the days of eternity" was He not?  Did the prophet John make a mistake?  No.  The plan had to go into effect at the Fall of Adam and Eve, but when did Infinite Wisdom foresee sin and the need for a Savior?  From the days of eternity, of course.

(Some may point out that some versions of the Bible use "the foundation of the world" to refer to when the Lamb's Book was written as opposed to when the Lamb was slain.  However, the majority of the Bible scholars who put together the English Bible translations did not come to this conclusion.  Of the major Bible versions King James,  New King James, NIV, AMP, Weymouth, Young's, and LTV (Green) all point to "slain;" (the NIV says in the margin that it could be written the other way, and the AMP renders it both ways in the text itself).  NASB has it pointing to the "Book," with the margin stating that it could be referring to "slain."  The RSV and Darby do word it so that the "foundation" is referring to the writing in the Lamb's Book.  Yet even without this text, Ellen White's statements don't contradict anything the Bible says in this regard.  She agreed that the plan had been in existence from "the days of eternity.")

The problem here has nothing to do with Ellen White, but with our finite minds trying to grasp how a God who knows the future ever "plans" anything and when?  After all, no matter what He does, He already knew He was going to do it, so when did He really decide to do anything?  God's ways are "past finding out." (Job 9:10)  This infinite subject is too much for the human mind.  We're talking about Omniscience here.  There are many examples in the Bible where God does something, and it seems it is not what He had originally "planned" to do.  For just a small sample:

— Casting Satan out of heaven (Rev. 12:7-9).  (When was that plan "devised"?)
— God Rejecting King Saul (1 Sam. 16:1)
— The plan in heaven as to how to get King Ahab to perish at Ramothgilead (1 Kings 22:19-22).
— God deciding not to do what He originally planned to do to the evil man or nation that repents (Jer. 26:3; 18:8).
— God deciding to answer the prayers of those who persevere in their petitions (Luke 18:7,8; 11:5-9).
— God deciding to destroy the earth with a flood (Gen. 6:6).
— God allowing King Hezekiah to live an additional 15 years after telling him he was about to die (2 Kings 20:1-6).

Now, when were these plans "devised"?  God knew "from the days of eternity" exactly what He was going to do, and when He would do it.  It is hard for us to understand how God can "make" any plans while already knowing the future perfectly.  This is not a contradiction at all, but rather a subject that simply cannot be explained by (or to) mere human beings.

____________________________________________ .
It is incomplete statements that either are the truth of what she truly believed or would be misleading to those who heard assuming suce came from above.

Afterthought........... Never said that.  But if she had.... that does not fall in line with what is quoted about her above.

You will note that it took 2 brothers to piece this together to "explain" her.

But I will say, I just do not see her being a prophet the same way you do.

She was, however, a heck of a woman.

My point was simple. EGW sharing the details of a vision regarding events transpiring in heaven in relation to humanities salvation, does not equal her giving an account of what she believed concerning the time at which this plan was conceived. She clearly and concisely stated her beliefs regarding the same in other places to the effect that the plan was from eternity. The presumption that she had to change her mind regarding the same is based upon the presumption that she ever believed that the plan of salvation was an afterthought. She never said such a thing, nor was she suggesting such a thing in sharing her vision. This presumption is foisted upon her by those who wish her to be a false prophet. It is created in their own minds, with no real substance. Nevertheless, prophets most certainly can be and have been wrong before when speaking and or acting according to their own understanding, and have been corrected. They are not all knowing as God is, and can and do learn.

[Amo]

Well, just because you are an anti-Trumper does not give you license to bring up the race card.

There has been nothing in these posts that would indicate that .

I was being sarcastic. I am not a anti-Trumper thumper, or lefty progressive race card dealer.

[seekingHiswisdom]

I was being sarcastic. I am not a anti-Trumper thumper, or lefty progressive race card dealer.

  Glad to hear it.

[Amo]

Hi Amo, There is plenty of ammunition concerning Ellen's plagiarism and the excuses abound.  Since you have already placed your head in the sand concerning all the other instances where she wrote untruths it would be a waste of my time to post her stealing from other authors. http://www.bible.ca/7-WL-exhibits-I-was-shown.htm

https://whiteestate.org/legacy/issues-whitelie-html/

I have not placed my head in the sand concerning your false accusations against EGW. I have, am now, and will continue to refute your false claims. Since your latest is just the provision of a link making your accusations for you, I have respond in like manner with a link refuting the same.

[4WD]

This presumption is foisted upon her by those who wish her to be a false prophet.

If she claims to be a prophet, and she does/did even if not directly, then she is at best a false prophet.

[Amo]

If she claims to be a prophet, and she does/did even if not directly, then she is at best a false prophet.

So, no more gift of prophecy among God's people? When do you believe the started?

[beam]

https://whiteestate.org/legacy/issues-whitelie-html/

I have not placed my head in the sand concerning your false accusations against EGW. I have, am now, and will continue to refute your false claims. Since your latest is just the provision of a link making your accusations for you, I have respond in like manner with a link refuting the same.

What would you expect the White Estate to say Amo?  A person that is programmed to believe something is not likely to see anyother point of view.

[Amo]

What would you expect the White Estate to say Amo?  A person that is programmed to believe something is not likely to see anyother point of view.

Is everyone who disagrees with you or the anti-EGW's of the link you provided, necessarily programmed? Who programmed you for forty years? Who deprogrammed you?

[beam]

Hi Amo, I give all the praise to the Holy Spirit for prompting me to start studying scripture instead of allowing the SDA prophet to tell me what is true.  There is a vast difference you know.  The prophet had me believing that I had to abide by the ministry of death, the 10 commandments written in stone.  2Cor3:6-11.   Had I realized that the 10 are not Christian's guide and were only for the guidance of Israel and ended at the Cross along with all of the laws of the Sinai covenant I would not have submitted myself to 40 years of SDA programming. 

I now know that I am not saved by keeping a day that I was never able to keep in the first place.  The prophet wrote: It means eternal salvation to keep the Sabbath holy unto the Lord. God says: "Them that honor Me I will honor." {6T 356.4}

I now know that the SDA church teaches that one must tithe or lose their salvation is nothing but a lie.   Tithing was a law contained in the Sinai covenant and only included Israelites that raised livestock and or crops.  Jesus would not have been a tithe payer under the laws of the Sinai covenant.  And the fact is that Christians are not under the laws of the Sinai covenant.   The prophet wrote: The man who will rob God is cultivating traits of character that will cut him off from admittance into the family of God above. (6T 391.1)

    Those who have used the  tithe  money to supply the common necessities of the house of God, have taken the money that should go to sustain ministers in doing His work, in preparing the way for Christ's second appearing. Just as surely as you do this work, you misapply the resources which God has told you to retain in His treasure house, that it may be full, to be used in His service. This work is something of which all who have taken a part in should be ashamed. They have used their influence to withdraw from God's treasury a fund that is consecrated to a sacred purpose. From those who do this, the blessing of the Lord will be removed. The  tithe  money must be kept sacred. . . . {1MR 183.1}
 

I now know that the SDA belief in the Investigative Judgement is a complete farce.  Jesus our all-knowing God is sitting in a room and has been for 175 years going over every name to see if they are able to be saved?  I was told to never say I am saved and you know something, maybe I wasn't because I never proclaimed the promises God has given us throughout the Holy Writ.   Actually, I knew I wasn't saved because I was never able to "keep" the Sabbath.  Isaiah 58.

I now know that Jesus will never forsake me and leave me without His grace as the prophet has written will happen before He returns.  Matthew 28:20
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.  AMEN!

I now know that it is a terrible belief that it is alright to abort babies as the SDA church believes.

I now know that the SDA prophet plagiarized in many parts of her writings and that her visions were not from God.  Many of those visions have been made known on the SDA forum and, of course, tried to be refuted by the faithful.

Yep Amo, I am now programmed with the power Jesus, of the Holy Spirit and scripture.
   
Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen. Jude 24-25