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Author Topic: A challenge to my beliefs  (Read 4933 times)

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todd_vetter33

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A challenge to my beliefs
« on: Sun Oct 25, 2009 - 19:33:25 »
With much of the Christian world all making good cases for a Friday crucifixion, Thursday crucifixion, and even a Wednesday crucifixion; all built on the bible with the verses they choose as truth to define their perceptions while ignoring other portions of bible verses and historical testimony, I decided to take it upon myself to test all that I could find on this topic and put it all to the test using the Prophecies and time as God defined it as a baseline for truth. It is said that scripture is of no personal interpretation (speculation). What I have found is pretty solid and amazing yet it poses new questions that have been answered by much of my findings. I am however curious what your answers will be to my questions, but first I would like you to review the answers I objectively present in the link referenced study so that you will be able to present why your understanding is more or less correct than what I have discovered and objectively displayed.

Knowing that Christ stated that he fulfilled all things written into the laws of Moses I looked for and found a 4 day timed specific prophecy in exodus 12 regarding the Lamb which Christianity claims Christ to be per the testimony of John the Baptist.

Why does the bible in it's current state of Preservation not illustrate the fulfillment of the 4 day prophecy in Exodus 12. In exodus 12 the Lamb (Christ) was to be chosen by the people on the tenth day of the first month. On the 14th day Christ (the Lamb) was to be killed. The only event that fits this symbolism of the Lamb being chosen by the people is the triumphal entry, yet the bible does not illustrate this being fulfilled since the anointing At Bethany according to John places the triumphal entry on the 9th Day of the first month. Both Matt and Mark place the anointing Event 2 days before Passover (12 Nissan) and if the triumphal entry happened the next day (13 Nissan), you still do not have the Lamb being chosen by the people on the 10th day per the Law of Moses which Christ claimed to have fulfilled.

There is a non canonized Gospel that was found in 1877 in a monastery in Tibet which illustrates exodus 12 in fulfillment. It also illustrates many other amazing testimonies. If there is a Gospel that is more complete (96 continuous Chapters) and illustrates prophecy fulfillment where the bible does not.  This exposes Error in the bible gospels. Why does the bible have Errors when people today claim it is infallible? By making false statements are they in Spirit and in Truth? Can they not hear God's voice which does tell the full truth?
 
If the official story regarding the history of the 4 gospels was truth, why is this study able to give solid credible evidence that the 4 bible gospels came from a single written gospel source? Page 31

The study gives a great deal of Credibility to the concept of God's word being perfect and that Christ was God's Son.  Problem presented is that Christianity's definition of God's word is incorrect and they Make God look like a Liar by misrepresenting God's word..

Here is a link that I have built which causes me to ask questions and provide the information which provokes the questions. Can you find any page of testimony presented that is not telling the truth based on what is presented?

By page 37, do you believe the information presented illustrates accurately enough why the Christian world is divided and in a state of denominational confusion?

Can you answer any of these questions with certain truth after reviewing the information which provokes the questions?

Are your answers speculation based on traditions and human imagination or as God’s child did he speak the truth in your ear to answer these question since God's children hear God's voice?

http://www.thedeathandresurection.com/pdf/the%20death%20and%20resurrection.pdf


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A challenge to my beliefs
« on: Sun Oct 25, 2009 - 19:33:25 »

todd_vetter33

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Re: A challenge to my beliefs
« Reply #1 on: Sun Oct 25, 2009 - 19:34:34 »
It appears someone thought they were doing God a service by removing this thread from the forum.  We know what prophecy says about them!  The lesson about pride and the ignorance it causes was for the eyes of many and God gave a treasure to invest.  The unfaithful servant buried the treasure to invest.  What happenes to that servant?
« Last Edit: Sun Oct 25, 2009 - 21:11:37 by todd_vetter33 »

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Re: A challenge to my beliefs
« Reply #1 on: Sun Oct 25, 2009 - 19:34:34 »

todd_vetter33

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Re: A challenge to my beliefs
« Reply #2 on: Sun Oct 25, 2009 - 21:41:19 »
This thread will illustrate why every word of this testimony is truth from God yet the second half is found in half truth with a twist in your bibles today.  do you have the courage to walk through the valley of the Shadow you were born with?

Jeremiah 16: 19-20  This Bible verse changes meaning between bible versions and bares witness to the lies we received if God’s word is unchanging
19 O LORD, my strength and my fortress, My refuge in the day of affliction, The Gentiles shall come to You From the ends of the earth and say, “Surely our fathers have inherited lies, Worthlessness and unprofitable things.

Offline robert two

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Re: A challenge to my beliefs
« Reply #3 on: Tue Mar 02, 2010 - 20:45:25 »
 I am looking for the answer to Jesus was 3 days and three night dead.
If it only said three days it would be okay. Then it brings JONAH into this as well. So we have problems.

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Re: A challenge to my beliefs
« Reply #3 on: Tue Mar 02, 2010 - 20:45:25 »

ex cathedra

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Re: A challenge to my beliefs
« Reply #4 on: Tue Mar 02, 2010 - 21:18:27 »

Good friday Jesus died and rose again sunday



THIS IS COVERED IN THE 6TH COMMANDMENT OF BIBLE INTERPETATIONS

TORWARD THE END


to a Hebrew, each day starts with the evening before (Genesis 1:5).

learn more its posted in the lutheran faith group section


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Re: A challenge to my beliefs
« Reply #4 on: Tue Mar 02, 2010 - 21:18:27 »



Offline robert two

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Re: A challenge to my beliefs
« Reply #5 on: Fri Mar 05, 2010 - 23:33:24 »
 There has to be an honest answer to the 3 days & 3 nights issue here.

Offline Cathlodox

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Re: A challenge to my beliefs
« Reply #6 on: Wed Mar 10, 2010 - 21:56:46 »
Jesus was crucified on the sixth day of the Jewish week, the Resurrection took place the following 1st day of the week, in the morning. The Calendar we use today was not the calendar Jews used at the time of Jesus. The crucifixion took place on the Jewish 6th day of the week which would have been considered Wed according to the Julian calendar which mutated into the Gregorian we now use.

Offline djconklin

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Re: A challenge to my beliefs
« Reply #7 on: Wed Mar 10, 2010 - 22:16:02 »
Quote
The Calendar we use today was not the calendar Jews used at the time of Jesus.

The weekly cycle has never been changed.  The Jews then worshipped on the Sabbath and they still do today.

The only thing that changed in the changeover from the Julian to the Gregorian was the number of the day: Something like Tuesday the 12 was followed by Wednesday the 25th.

Offline Cathlodox

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Re: A challenge to my beliefs
« Reply #8 on: Thu Mar 11, 2010 - 00:52:04 »

Quote from: conklin
The weekly cycle has never been changed.  The Jews then worshipped on the Sabbath and they still do today.

The Sabbath was calculated differently back then. The Jews always worshipped on the Sabbath and they still do. It's just a different calculation.

Quote from: conklin
The only thing that changed in the changeover from the Julian to the Gregorian was the number of the day: Something like Tuesday the 12 was followed by Wednesday the 25th.

The issue is not from the Julian to the Gregorian. The calculation changed from the ancient Hebrew calendar to the actual Julian.

Offline djconklin

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Re: A challenge to my beliefs
« Reply #9 on: Thu Mar 11, 2010 - 04:43:25 »

Quote from: conklin
The weekly cycle has never been changed.  The Jews then worshipped on the Sabbath and they still do today.

The Sabbath was calculated differently back then. The Jews always worshipped on the Sabbath and they still do. It's just a different calculation.

And the proof would be?

Quote
Quote from: conklin
The only thing that changed in the changeover from the Julian to the Gregorian was the number of the day: Something like Tuesday the 12 was followed by Wednesday the 25th.

The issue is not from the Julian to the Gregorian. The calculation changed from the ancient Hebrew calendar to the actual Julian.
You broght up the change from the Julian to the Gregorian, now you change it to a Jewish to Julian and yuou've offered no proof for this claim.

Offline Cathlodox

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Re: A challenge to my beliefs
« Reply #10 on: Thu Mar 11, 2010 - 23:20:50 »
Quote from: conklin
The weekly cycle has never been changed.  The Jews then worshipped on the Sabbath and they still do today.

Quote from: cathlodox
The Sabbath was calculated differently back then. The Jews always worshipped on the Sabbath and they still do. It's just a different calculation.
[/quote]

Quote from: conklin
And the proof would be?

Jewish Encyclopedia, do you accept that?

Quote from: Jewish Encyclopedia, Sabbath
The origin of the Sabbath, as well as the true meaning of the name, is uncertain. The earliest Biblical passages which mention it (Ex. xx. 10, xxxiv. 21; Deut. v. 14; Amos viii. 5) presuppose its previous existence, and analysis of all the references to it in the canon makes it plain that its observance was neither general nor altogether spontaneous in either pre-exilic or post-exilic Israel. It was probably originally connected in some manner with the cult of the moon, as indeed is suggested by the frequent mention of Sabbath and New-Moon festivals in the same sentence (Isa. i. 13; Amos viii. 5; H Kings iv. 23). The old Semites worshiped the moon and the stars (Hommel, "Der Gestirndienst der Alten Araber"). Nomads and shepherds, they regarded the night as benevolent, the day with its withering heat as malevolent. In this way the moon ("Sinai" = "moon ["sin"] mountain") became central in their pantheon. The moon, however, has four phases in approximately 28 days, and it seemingly comes to a standstill every seven days. Days on which the deity rested were considered taboo, or ill-omened. New work could not be begun, nor unfinished work continued, on such days. The original meaning of "Shabbat" conveys this idea (the derivation from "sheba'" is entirely untenable). If, as was done by Prof. Sayce (in his Hibbert Lectures) and by Jastrow (in "American Journal of Theology," April, 1898), it can be identified in the form "shabbaton" with the "Shabattum" of the Assyrian list of foreign words, which is defined as "um nuḥ libbi" = "day of propitiation" (Jensen, in "Sabbath-School Times," 1892), it is a synonym for "'Aẓeret" and means a day on which one's actions are restricted, because the deity has to be propitiated. If, with Toy (in "Jour. Bib. Lit." xviii. 194), it is assumed that the signification is "rest," or "season of rest" (from the verb "to rest," "to cease [from labor]"; though "divider" and "division of time" are likewise said to have been the original significations; comp. also Barth, "Nominalbildungen," and Lagarde, "Nominalbildung"), the day is so designated because, being taboo, it demands abstinence from work and other occupations. The Sabbath depending, in Israel's nomadic period, upon the observation of the phases of the moon, it could not, according to this view, be a fixed day.

Now, for your Bible lesson.

"And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt saying, This month shall be unto you the beginning of months: it shall be the first month of the year to you. Exodus 12,1
 
 
"And Moses wrote their goings out according to their journeys by the commandment of the LORD: and these are their journeys according to their goings out. And they departed from Rameses in the first month, on the fifteenth day of the first month; on the morrow after the passover the children of Israel went out with an high hand in the sight of all the Egyptians. Numbers 33, 1-3
 
Now, counting from the "New Moon", Passover the 14th is ALWAYS on the 6th "day" of the week. In the above Scripture the Children of Israel left Eqypt "on the morrow" or the next day after Passover.
 
Here is the simple math,
 
New Moon Day (1), Day 2, Day 3, Day 4, Day 5, Day 6, Day 7, Day 8, Day 9, Day 10, Day 11, Day 12, Day 13, Day 14 (Passover), Day 15 (Sabbath Day)
 
Day 1 (New Moon) and Day 14 (Passover) have been identified.  We know from Deut 16,1 that God brought the Children out of Egypt "by night" the day after the Passover. We know that the New Moon day is the first day of the first month of the first year because God commanded the Hebrews to keep the Passover Lamb up to the 14th day of the first month then to kill it.
 

If you go back and look at the "simple math" you will see that the 15th day, by default, is the Sabbath. Counting back 7 days identifies the 8th day as also a Sabbath. Day 1 can't be the Sabbath because it's the first day, of the first month of the first year and there is never a time where the New Moon day is the Sabbath, it's impossible. Counting forward from the 15th day we can identify the 22nd and 29th day as Sabbath days as well. This is the first Biblical month. The second month is laid out identical.
 
 
On the 15th Day of the Second month of the Exodus from Egypt the Children complained to Moses. Notice what happens. God tells Moses on the 15th Day that He will rain bread from heaven and test the Children to see if they will walk in His law or not.
 
On Day 15 God instructs Moses what to instruct the Children. If you read Exodus 16 you will see on the evening of the "15th day of the month" God caused quail to blow into the camp of the Children of Israel and the next morning manna started to fall. Day 15 = The Sabbath,  plus 16th day (1st day of manna), 17th day (2nd day of Manna), 18th day (3rd day of Manna), 19th day (4th day of Manna), 20th day (5th day of manna), 21st day (6th day of Manna) whereas the Children are to gather twice as much manna because on the 22 day there will be no manna because that day is the Sabbath day. The math works out the same way as it did from the Exodus of Egypt with the Sabbath being on the 8th, 15th, 22nd and 29th day from the New Moon. That's two months wereas the Sabbaths were on the identical days of the same Lunar Calendar.
 
Is there ever three months in a row in the Gregorian Calendar where the Sabbath falls on the exact same days? Of course not, because the Gregorian is a solar Calendar and does not count or start from the New Moon.

It's exactly as the Jewish Encyclopedia stated it to be: The Sabbath depending, in Israel's nomadic period, upon the observation of the phases of the moon, it could not, according to this view, be a fixed day.



Quote from: conklin
The only thing that changed in the changeover from the Julian to the Gregorian was the number of the day: Something like Tuesday the 12 was followed by Wednesday the 25th.

Yeah, I realize that. That's not the point.

Quote from: cathlodox
The issue is not from the Julian to the Gregorian. The calculation changed from the ancient Hebrew calendar to the actual Julian.

Quote from: conklin
You broght up the change from the Julian to the Gregorian, now you change it to a Jewish to Julian and yuou've offered no proof for this claim.

See above and re-produce two concurrent months with the sabbath falling on the identical days within the months on either a Julian or Gregorian Calendar.

Offline djconklin

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Re: A challenge to my beliefs
« Reply #11 on: Fri Mar 12, 2010 - 09:40:58 »
Quote
It's exactly as the Jewish Encyclopedia stated it to be: The Sabbath depending, in Israel's nomadic period, upon the observation of the phases of the moon, it could not, according to this view, be a fixed day.

"according to this view" i.e., "upon the observation of the moon"--the Jews didn't depend on the observation of the phases of the moon.  The Sabbath starts when the SUN goes down on the sixth day and ends when the SUN goes down on the seventh day.

Offline Cathlodox

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Re: A challenge to my beliefs
« Reply #12 on: Fri Mar 12, 2010 - 11:03:19 »

Quote from: conklin
"according to this view" i.e., "upon the observation of the moon"--the Jews didn't depend on the observation of the phases of the moon.  The Sabbath starts when the SUN goes down on the sixth day and ends when the SUN goes down on the seventh day.

"It could NOT, according to this view BE a Fixed day". In other words, within the Lunar month, there would be 6 days of work followed by a seventh day Sabbath.

I gave you the exodus calendation and demonstrated concurrent months in the Bible which had the Sabbaths falling on the same specific days in those concurrent months. It's now your turn to replicate that with our Gregorian Calendar.


Offline djconklin

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Re: A challenge to my beliefs
« Reply #13 on: Fri Mar 12, 2010 - 12:07:56 »
 ::frustrated::

The Jews didn't use the MOON to figure out which day was the Sabbath.  They used the SUN and counted to SEVEN.

Quote
I gave you the exodus calendation and demonstrated concurrent months in the Bible
If you did I miss4d it.  BTW, the Sabbath began at Creation not Exodus!

Offline Cathlodox

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Re: A challenge to my beliefs
« Reply #14 on: Fri Mar 12, 2010 - 15:09:21 »

Quote from: conklin
The Jews didn't use the MOON to figure out which day was the Sabbath.  They used the SUN and counted to SEVEN.

Then duplicate what I demonstrated on a Gregorian calendar - you can pick any year to do it in.

Quote from: conklin
BTW, the Sabbath began at Creation not Exodus!

then you should have no problem duplicating what Exodus shows. Give me a couple months where the sabbath falls on the exact same days two months in a row. That should be easy for one so convinced they are correct.

Offline djconklin

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Re: A challenge to my beliefs
« Reply #15 on: Fri Mar 12, 2010 - 18:19:21 »
Quote
Then duplicate what I demonstrated on a Gregorian calendar

1) To repeat: I have't seen you demonstrate anything.
2) I don't use the calendar to figure out which day is the Sabbath; I can count to seven.

Quote
then you should have no problem duplicating what Exodus shows.
I don't use Exodus to figure out which day is the Sabbath.  I use Gen. 1:2-2:3.

Offline Cathlodox

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Re: A challenge to my beliefs
« Reply #16 on: Fri Mar 12, 2010 - 18:35:44 »
Then how do you justify that the 8th day of 1st month in the exodus was the Sabbath as the 8th day was also the sabbath in the 2nd and 3rd month as well. I am asking you to duplicate this on a Gregorian calendar for any "two months" in a row. Like the NIKE add says; 'just do it'! You asked for proof, I gave it to you so deal with it.

Offline djconklin

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Re: A challenge to my beliefs
« Reply #17 on: Fri Mar 12, 2010 - 18:38:20 »
Then how do you justify that the 8th day of 1st month in the exodus was the Sabbath as the 8th day was also the sabbath in the 2nd and 3rd month as well. I am asking you to duplicate this on a Gregorian calendar for any "two months" in a row. Like the NIKE add says; 'just do it'! You asked for proof, I gave it to you so deal with it.

Where are you pulling this claim from?  Secondly, the Sabbath is based on the day of the week, not the month.  Thridly, you haven't given any proof.  All you've done is make claims.

Offline Cathlodox

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Re: A challenge to my beliefs
« Reply #18 on: Fri Mar 12, 2010 - 20:30:55 »
Quote from: conklin
Where are you pulling this claim from?  Secondly, the Sabbath is based on the day of the week, not the month.  Thridly, you haven't given any proof.  All you've done is make claims.

Are you reading my posts? I've already laid it out for you. I'll go slower this time.

Month 1

Exodus 12: 1st month of the 1st year for Israel

Exodus 12:6 Passover lamb slain on the 14th day, at sunset.

Exodus 12:22 No one is to leave their house until the morning of the 15th day.

Deut 16:1: The exodus started on the night of the 15th day ( after the sun went down )


Month 2

Exodus 16: On the 15th day of the second month God blows in quail ( after the sun goes down ).

Bread from heaven starts to fall the next morning.

16th day = day one of bread / 17th day = day two of bread / 18th day = day three of bread / 19th day = day four of bread / 20th day = day five of bread / day 21 = day six of bread and day 22 = day "7" NO BREAD. Do you agree that the 22nd day of the second month Moses left Egypt was the Sabbath? A simple yes or no will be fine.

If the 22nd day of the 2nd month was the Sabbath it does not take very difficult math to count 7 days past the 22nd day to arive at the 29th day, which according to the way I count would have been another Sabbath in a hypothetical situation which suggests the Sabbath was being observed previous to God giving at the Mountain ( if that makes any sense ). The same math works in reverse and identifies the 15th day as well as the 8th day also being a Sabbath.

The 3rd month works out the exact same way, i.e. "In the third month after the Israelites left Egypt on the very day they came to the desert of Sinai" Exodus 19:1. You would agree that the Children of Israel left Egypt on the 15th day of the 1st month of the 1st year to them, right?

If we reverse the 2nd month back 7 days from what I assume you will agree is the Sabbath we arrive on the 15th day which one would logically assume would also be a Sabbath then count back 7 more days and end up on the 8th day which is also logcial to assume is a Sabbath. This is exactly what the Jewish source I quoted told you. The New Moon started the months in ancient Israel. It also is exactly what the Early Church Father stated.

There, now produce 2 back to back months using a Gregorian OR Julian calendar and have the Sabbaths for the months fall on the identical days for those two months. 

It would have been easier had you just accepted the Jewish source.



Offline djconklin

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Re: A challenge to my beliefs
« Reply #19 on: Fri Mar 12, 2010 - 21:06:59 »
Quote
Are you reading my posts? I've already laid it out for you.

Actually, this is the first time you've laid out these texts for us.  In your post from yesterday you refer to "Exod 12,1" and then you jumped to Num. 33:1-3

Quote
"And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt saying, This month shall be unto you the beginning of months: it shall be the first month of the year to you. Exodus 12,1

Note that this says nothing about the weekly cycle.  You should also know that the Jews had two calendars operating simultaneously.

Quote
Exodus 12:6 Passover lamb slain on the 14th day, at sunset.

Hmm, where does it say that Passover has to occur on the Sabbath?  Would there be a Passover every single week?  Nope!  But, there is a Sabbath.  In our calendar the Sabbath falls on what we call Saturday--every single week, week in and week out.

Offline Cathlodox

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Re: A challenge to my beliefs
« Reply #20 on: Sat Mar 13, 2010 - 02:25:28 »
Quote from: conklin
Actually, this is the first time you've laid out these texts for us.  In your post from yesterday you refer to "Exod 12,1" and then you jumped to Num. 33:1-3

I laid out the first two months - go back and re-read it.

Quote from: conklin
Note that this says nothing about the weekly cycle.  You should also know that the Jews had two calendars operating simultaneously.

That's an invention of your own mind - there wasn't a perpetual cycle of weeks of 7 days in Ancient Israel. The first day, the second day, the third day, etc, etc, etc. If the Jewish religious calendar 'floated' through a series of 7 day weeks you would logically have the "new moon day" landing square onto the Sabbath several times a year and that is impossible.

1 Chron 23:31 : and at every presentation of a burnt offering to the LORD on the Sabbaths and on the New Moons and on the set feasts, by number according to the ordinance governing them, regularly before the LORD;
Quote
Exodus 12:6 Passover lamb slain on the 14th day, at sunset.

Ps 83:3 : Blow the trumpet at the time of the New Moon, At the full moon, on our solemn feast day.

Quote from: conklin
Hmm, where does it say that Passover has to occur on the Sabbath?  Would there be a Passover every single week?  Nope!  But, there is a Sabbath.  In our calendar the Sabbath falls on what we call Saturday--every single week, week in and week out.

Bone - up on your Bible history. The Passover is once per year, ON a specific "date."

Lev 23:5 : In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD's passover.

Show me your silver bullet text that says Friday / Saturday or anything other Roman week day name. After Jerusalem was sacked by the Roman Army Rome disbanded the Sanhedrin and threatened death on the Jewish practice of declairing the New Month ( which was the primary job of the Sanhedrin ).

Eze 46:1 :  ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “The gateway of the inner court that faces toward the east shall be shut the six working days; but on the Sabbath it shall be opened, and on the day of the New Moon it shall be opened.

It's safe to conclude that had you been alive at the time of Eze you would have adjusted the Scripture. Either the six day work week is broken and the eastern gate is opened on one of the six working days simply because the new moon happened to fall on that work day OR the gate is closed on the new moon day because it is one of the regular work days.

The Jewish source isn't suggesting that the Sabbath is NOT the seventh day and it's not suggesting that six days of labor DON'T proceed the 7th day Sabbath. It's simply saying that the cycle of weeks were NOT perpetual, due to the declaration OF the New Moon. New Moon is identified followed by 6 days of work followed by the seventh day Sabbath - then another 6 days of work followed by a seventh day Sabbath, etc, etc, etc.

The months I detailed for you  were the Jewish Liturgical calendar and the same rule would apply to that system as would ours. If the 1st month can be shown that the Sabbath was on the 8th day, the 15th day, 22nd and 29th then two and three months IN A ROW with identical pattern it's effectively proven that the detailed calendation would be IMPOSSIBLE to sync with a Gregorian or Julian Calendar system. That's why I asked you to demonstrate it which you have flat refused to do.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The New Moon is still, and the Sabbath originally was, dependent upon the lunar cycle . . . Originally, the New Moon was celebrated in the same way as the Sabbath; gradually it became less important while the Sabbath became more and more a day of religion and humanity, of religious meditation and instruction, of peace and delight of the soul. (Universal Jewish Encyclopedia, "Holidays," p. 410.)




Amo

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Re: A challenge to my beliefs
« Reply #21 on: Sat Mar 13, 2010 - 10:20:14 »
Encyclopedia of Judaism:

Sabbath


(Heb. Shabbat). The seventh day of the week; the day of rest, one of the central features of Judaism. The basic reasons given in the Bible for the Sabbath are to commemorate it as the culmination of Creation (Gen. 1 and Ex. 20), to offer an opportunity for servants to rest (Deut. 5), and to serve as a sign of the Covenant of God with the people of Israel and His consecration of them (Ex. 31). Deuteronomy 5 also connects the Exodus to the Sabbath. It is the only holy day mentioned specifically in the Ten Commandments.

Three basic themes of Judaism characterize the day: Creation, Revelation, and Redemption. They are seen in the biblical passages which serve as the cornerstone of the Sabbath, and in some of its practices, notably the public Reading of the Law.

Biblical Sources The first key text is Genesis 2:1-3: "The heaven and the earth were finished and all their array. And on the seventh day God finished the work which He had been doing, and He ceased [or "rested"] on the seventh day from all the work which He had done. And God blessed the seventh day and declared it holy, because on it God ceased from all the work of creation which He had done." The Bible does not mention that the Patriarchs observed the Sabbath (although rabbinic sources do, e.g., Gen. R. 11:17, or 64:4).

During their wanderings in the Wilderness of Zin and with the provision of Manna, the Israelites were first commanded to observe the Sabbath; they were told that five days of the week they were to collect a single portion of manna, but on the sixth they should collect a double portion, for "tomorrow is a day of rest, a holy Sabbath of the Lord" (Ex. 16:23). When some searched on the seventh day for manna and found none, "the Lord spoke to Moses, 'How long will you men refuse to follow My commandments and My teachings? Mark that the Lord has given you the Sabbath ... Let no man leave his place on the seventh day" (Ex. 16:28-29). Three weeks later, the Israelites received the Ten Commandments, the fourth of which is devoted to the Sabbath. The version in Exodus 20:8-11 reads: "Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of the Lord your God: you shall not do any work, you, your son or daughter, your male or female slave, or your cattle, or the stranger who is within your settlements. For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth and sea, and all that is in them, and He rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it."The version in Deuteronomy 5:12-5 begins "Observe" instead of "Remember," and concludes: "Remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt and the Lord your God freed you from there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm; therefore the Lord your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day." In both versions, the emphasis is on the Sabbath as a day of rest for the entire household, animals included.

The Sabbath is also a covenant between Israel and God: "Keep My Sabbaths, for this is a sign between Me and you throughout the generations, that you may know that I the Lord have consecrated you ... a covenant for all time: it shall be a sign for all time between Me and the people of Israel. For in six days the Lord made the heaven and earth, and on the seventh day He ceased from work and was refreshed" (Ex. 31:13-17).An instance of the death penalty being meted out for transgressing the Sabbath is found in Numbers (15:32-36). A sacrifice was the penalty for unwitting desecration of the day.Little information is available about Sabbath observance during the First Temple period, although something may be gleaned from statements in Amos and Hosea. There is no prohibition against trading on that day in the Pentateuch, but Amos (8:5) implies that it existed in his time. Hosea (2:13) includes the Sabbath in the happy times which will cease. Isaiah (1:13) bears witness to the Sabbath's being a national institution. Jeremiah (17:21-22) exhorts the people to observe the Sabbath as it was commanded, for the future of Jerusalem depended on it.

Nehemiah (ch. 10) tells of the covenant he made with the returned exiles, one point of which was not to buy items on the Sabbath. However, upon his return from Persia he saw that the covenant had not been adhered to and introduced changes to ensure Sabbath observance (Neh. 13:15-22). Ezra and his disciples began to systematize rules and interpretation of the Bible and tradition to preserve and encourage Sabbath observance. The men of the Great Assembly and the Scribes ordained strict observance of the Sabbath. The residents of Jerusalem would not defend themselves on the Sabbath when besieged by Ptolemy I. Some 150 years later, however, during the Maccabean wars, Mattathias the Hasmonean ruled that the laws of the Sabbath could be transgressed to save lives, therefore the Jews could defend themselves on the Sabbath (I Macc. 2:40-41).

After the Sanhedrin began to operate, Sabbath laws became more formalized in the Halakhah, and the rabbinic laws became the touchstone for all further development of these rules until modern times.


Offline djconklin

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Re: A challenge to my beliefs
« Reply #22 on: Sat Mar 13, 2010 - 10:23:11 »
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I laid out the first two months - go back and re-read it.
In your latest post, yes.

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That's an invention of your own mind - there wasn't a perpetual cycle of weeks of 7 days in Ancient Israel.
I love the proof for that; and your supposition contradicts Scripture (see Gen. 29:27-8 for instance).  And what you are basically saying is that people back then were so stupid that they couldn't count to seven.

Dr. William Mead Jones took the Bible seriously and felt that if the Bible was true then some trace of the Sabbath should be able to be found in the languages that were created at the Tower of Babel incident.  He foiund over 100 languages that have as their name for the seventh day of the week as "sabbath."  Thanks to the Ineternet I found two more that he didn't know about.

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If the Jewish religious calendar 'floated' through a series of 7 day weeks you would logically have the "new moon day" landing square onto the Sabbath several times a year and that is impossible.
Love the proof for that claim.  Is this a habit for you?

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That's why I asked you to demonstrate it which you have flat refused to do.p[/quyote]And as I have repeatedly told you, but it doesn't seem to stick, I don't use the Julian  or the Gregorian calendar to figure out which day of the week is the Sabbath.  I can count to seven; can you?

Offline Cathlodox

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Re: A challenge to my beliefs
« Reply #23 on: Sat Mar 13, 2010 - 16:30:04 »
dj - simply sync the Jewish religious calendar with our Gregorian. There are plenty of calendation sites on the web so just knock it out and be done with it.

The people at Moses' time DID count to SEVEN. After six days of work the Sabbath would be observed and it indeed WAS called the 7th day Sabbath.

Eze 46:3 : On the Sabbaths and New Moons the people of the land are to worship in the presence of the LORD at the entrance to that gateway.

Would you classify the New Moon day as DAY  Israel "worshiped" God?

Amos 8:5 :  "When will the New Moon be over that we may sell grain, and the Sabbath be ended that we may market wheat?"—skimping the measure,
boosting the price and cheating with dishonest scales, buying the poor with silver and the needy for a pair of sandals, selling even the sweepings with the wheat. The LORD has sworn by the Pride of Jacob: "I will never forget anything they have done.


Is it your affirmation then the New Moon day was understood to be a regular good old work day in ancient Israel? Is this what you are suggesting?

I've gave you the proof dj - and anyone reading this is well aware that. A better question I should ask you is WHAT proof would you then accept? What would do it for you? Is your answer; 'nothing would do it for me'?

Amo

You again quote the Jewish source! I showed you from the Bible that the quail blew into the camp on the evining of the 15th DAY and the very next morning the bread from heaven started to fall - on the 6th day of bread the people were to gather twice as much because on the 7th day FROM THE 15th was a Sabbath! If the Sabbath is then identified as 22nd day of THAT MONTH is does not take a degree to count back or forward from the 22nd day of that month to identify WHAT other days in that month WOULD HAVE BEEN other sabbaths. I gave you two months whereas the sabbaths were on the SAME identical days of that "Jewish Calendar". Can you today duplicate that on a Gregorian OR Jewish calendar? Prove that I'm false and show me how you can do it - it's ether that continue to hang around as your theology is butchered up and put on a display case. You choose.

Amo

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Re: A challenge to my beliefs
« Reply #24 on: Sat Mar 13, 2010 - 17:03:18 »
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Amo

You again quote the Jewish source! I showed you from the Bible that the quail blew into the camp on the evining of the 15th DAY and the very next morning the bread from heaven started to fall - on the 6th day of bread the people were to gather twice as much because on the 7th day FROM THE 15th was a Sabbath! If the Sabbath is then identified as 22nd day of THAT MONTH is does not take a degree to count back or forward from the 22nd day of that month to identify WHAT other days in that month WOULD HAVE BEEN other sabbaths. I gave you two months whereas the sabbaths were on the SAME identical days of that "Jewish Calendar". Can you today duplicate that on a Gregorian OR Jewish calendar? Prove that I'm false and show me how you can do it - it's ether that continue to hang around as your theology is butchered up and put on a display case. You choose.

Actually, that is the first time I quoted a Jewish source.  I only quoted it, because I noticed you quoted one also.  Therefore I tried to show you that the Jews did, do, and will continue to believe that the Sabbath is the seventh day of every week.  This is because the issue is to simple to be missed, or argued by anyone, accept one looking for any excuse possible to ignore the fourth commandment.  You are of course free to believe whatever you will.  I will no longer waste any time though, with such trifling with God's word.

Offline Cathlodox

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Re: A challenge to my beliefs
« Reply #25 on: Sat Mar 13, 2010 - 17:41:16 »
If continuing to ignore facts of Scripture suits you then continue to ignore fact of Scripture. Peace man.

Offline djconklin

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Re: A challenge to my beliefs
« Reply #26 on: Sat Mar 13, 2010 - 18:21:04 »
>The people at Moses' time DID count to SEVEN. After six days of work the Sabbath would be observed and it indeed WAS called the 7th day Sabbath.

This from the guy who claimed: "That's an invention of your own mind - there wasn't a perpetual cycle of weeks of 7 days in Ancient Israel."
===
> Posted on: Today at 05:41:16 PM 
Insert Quote 
If continuing to ignore facts of Scripture suits you then continue to ignore fact of Scripture.

Its very simple: read Gen. 1:2 through Gen. 2:3 and see how many times the word "moon" comes up.  Hint: zilch, zip, nada.


Offline Cathlodox

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Re: A challenge to my beliefs
« Reply #27 on: Sat Mar 13, 2010 - 19:35:38 »
dj conklin: This from the guy who claimed: "That's an invention of your own mind - there wasn't a perpetual cycle of weeks of 7 days in Ancient Israel."

Cathlodox: The "month" re-set the count of "days" dj. That's what I've said all along. The New Moon marked the "new month" therefore after that New Moon you would count 6 working days followed by a 7th day which was the Sabbath. That cycle of 7 days in a week would continue until the month terminated and WAS the Jewish week. The Jewish Liturgical month had 29 OR 30 days in it. If it can be proven that 3 back to back months had Sabbath falling on the same exact days counting from inception of the month it's easy to prove that the New Moon day was NOT a work day any more then the Sabbath was. You understand what the sources I quoted said, right? The sources did not say the Jewish week wasn't 7 days at all - it simply said that once the new month was determined the count of days started again. Therefore, depending on the New Moon you could have a break of a day or two INBETWEEN the terminus of the previous month and the inception of the new. That's why I listed the day count in two back to back months and identified what specific days of those months the Bible said the Sabbath was on.


dj conklin: Its very simple: read Gen. 1:2 through Gen. 2:3 and see how many times the word "moon" comes up.  Hint: zilch, zip, nada.


Cathlodox : You should have kept reading Genesis 1, specifically verse 14 which says the luminaries were "appointed by God" to be used for signs, seasons days and years. Ps 104 says that the Moon specifically was for appointed for seasons ( Hewbrew month ). Lev 23:1-3 explicitly states that sabbath is the 1st "MO'EDIM".

Do me a favor here, look up the word for "seasons", ya know the word used in Genesis 1:14 ( Mow'ED ) and next thumb over to Lev: 23: and tell me what the Hebrew word is for the most important feast of the Lord? You will find it's "Mow'ED". The Sabbath is the 1st Feast according to the Lord God.

According to Strong's, the Hebrew word #4150 'Mow'ED' means SET TIMES, APPOINTED FEASTS, etc. If Psalms 104: 19 says the Moon is for appointing "Mow'ED" and the Sabbath is the 1st or most important 'Mow'ED' and Scripture goes on to state that Jews would not dare to sell grain on the New Moon day just like they wouldn't sell stuff on the "7th day Sabbath" you tell me what's going on here. How could you have the sabbath falling on IDENTICAL days counting from the New Moon two months in a row if you didn't COUNT the days from the new moon??? I've asked you to do it for me several times now and the best you can come up with is say you don't need to?

Be honest dj, can you walk outside at 10 am and tell me what day of the month it is? No one could do that today just like no one has ever been able to do that EVER. Walk outside at night and look at the Moon and realize that you can tell with ease what day of the month it is by just looking at the moon.

http://stardate.org/nightsky/moon/



Offline djconklin

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Re: A challenge to my beliefs
« Reply #28 on: Sat Mar 13, 2010 - 20:58:27 »
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The "month" re-set the count of "days" dj. That's what I've said all along.
It only resets the number of the day for the month--it never affects the weekly cycle.

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Lev: 23: and tell me what the Hebrew word is for the most important feast of the Lord? You will find it's "Mow'ED". The Sabbath is the 1st Feast according to the Lord God.
Lev. 23 says no such thing.  Lev. 23:2-4 is an inclusio--that means that the "feasts" that follow are to be considered as "sabbaths."

Offline Cathlodox

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Re: A challenge to my beliefs
« Reply #29 on: Sat Mar 13, 2010 - 21:40:24 »
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The "month" re-set the count of "days" dj. That's what I've said all along.
It only resets the number of the day for the month--it never affects the weekly cycle.

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Lev: 23: and tell me what the Hebrew word is for the most important feast of the Lord? You will find it's "Mow'ED". The Sabbath is the 1st Feast according to the Lord God.
Lev. 23 says no such thing.  Lev. 23:2-4 is an inclusio--that means that the "feasts" that follow are to be considered as "sabbaths."

The 1st of which was the seventh day sabbath.

Offline djconklin

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Re: A challenge to my beliefs
« Reply #30 on: Sun Mar 14, 2010 - 04:07:46 »
In the religious or secular year?

Every seventh day of the WEEK is be the Sabbath.

Offline Cathlodox

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Re: A challenge to my beliefs
« Reply #31 on: Sun Mar 14, 2010 - 13:01:23 »
A secular year was unknown in Israel until late in it's history......
...."This month shall be unto you the beginning of months: it shall be the first month of the year to you." Ex 12:1

"In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb" Ex 12:3........
...There wasn't two calendars, there was only one... "In the tenth day of this month".

......."And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month". Ex 12:6.
"In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread, until the one and twentieth day of the month at even. Ex 12:18

....."One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.Ex 12:49

God tells Moses to tell the people to conduct Passover on the eveninig of "the 14 day" of the 1st month of the 1st year. God instucts the people via Moses to remain in their house until the next morning morning (Ex 12:22). God does not start the Exodus until "the evening of the 15th day from the new month of the new year"......

"Seven days thou shalt eat unleavened bread, and in the seventh day shall be a feast to the LORD. Ex 13:6.....
.....15 days + 7 days would end up being the 22nd day.


No secular calendar whatsoever.........
......God divorced Israel from Egypts calendar by telling Moses that "To Moses and the Children a specific day would be the first day of the first month of the first year "TO THEM". Ex 12:1

"on the fifteenth day of the second month after their departing out of the land of Egypt Ex 16:1.............
They were still on the same Liturgical Calendar God started them out on prior to leaving Egypt......

......."when the LORD shall give you in the evening flesh to eat, and in the morning bread to the full". EX 16:8.
The clock starts again. On the evening of the 15th day quails blow into the camp and on the morning of the 16th day bread from heaven falls.......

The bread from heaven starts to fall on the morning of the 16th day of the "second month" of the 1st year from the Exodus............
....The children are instructed to go out and gather the bread for 6 days and on the 6th day gater twice because on the 22nd day of the 2nd month of the first year there will be no bread on the ground.

15 + 7 = 22, as in the 22nd day. If the 22nd day is the Sabbath, by default the 29th day is also the Sabbath and in reverse from the 22nd day the 15th day, of the second month, of the 1st year since Exodus is also the Sabbath. It becomes obvious that the 8th day would have also been the Sabbath......

It becomes impossible to deny it. The Liturgical calendar of the Exodus was the only calendar.


the 7th day of what? The Gregorian calendar or God's? You can't show me two months side by side with the Sabbath falling on the 8th, 15th, 22nd & 29th days on a modern calendar or you would have done it by now. Don't feel bad dj, no one can do it.

.......This is how a Jewish army could march around a city for 7 straight days w/out breaking a sabbath. Simply because the new month re-set the days and the 8th day was the 1st feast and 7 days after that was the next first feast and seven days after that and so on until the month re-set the day count again.

What can I say, if you reject the Jewish Ency and Scripture when they both say the same thing you have your right to do so. It does not matter much given that Christ terminated the Jewish Liturgical Calendar and incepted a better Christian one.
« Last Edit: Sun Mar 14, 2010 - 13:08:00 by Cathlodox »