Author Topic: Immutability of the Law of God or can man change Gods Law?  (Read 3896 times)

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Offline Hobie

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Immutability of the Law of God or can man change Gods Law?
« on: Thu Mar 12, 2009 - 09:41:26 »
There are many people that say they lift up Christ, yet scorn and reject Gods Law which comes from love. It is nothing but a snare from evil they have fallen into which has been set up to excuse sin, the Law shows Gods love for man in His gift of the Sabbath and how to love God back and our fellowman, and by showing us His love in sending prophets and teachers to explain and illustrate His Law. Here is a excellent explanation of this issue:

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Matthew 5:17

What a contrast between the words of Christ, and the language of those who claim that he came to abrogate the law of God and to do away with the Old Testament. Our Saviour, who knew all things, understood the wiles of Satan, the snares by which he would seek to entrap the children of men, and so made this positive statement to meet the questioning doubts and the blind unbelief of all coming time.

But there is a law which was abolished, which Christ "took out of the way, nailing it to his cross." Paul calls it "the law of commandments contained in ordinances." This ceremonial law, given by God through Moses, with its sacrifices and ordinances, was to be binding upon the Hebrews until type met antitype in the death of Christ as the Lamb of God to take away the sin of the world. Then all the sacrificial offerings and services were to be abolished. Paul and the other apostles labored to show this, and resolutely withstood those Judaizing teachers who declared that Christians should observe the ceremonial law.

Christ himself declares that he came not to destroy the law of ten precepts, which was spoken from Sinai. He says, "Verily I say unto you,"-- making the assertion as emphatic as possible,--"Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law till all be fulfilled." Here he teaches not merely what the claims of God's law had been and were then, but that these claims should hold so long as the heavens and the earth remain. This testimony should forever settle the question. The law of God is as immutable as his throne. It will maintain its claims upon all mankind in all ages, unchanged by time or place or circumstances. The ritual system was of altogether a different character, and typified the death of Christ as a sacrifice for the broken precepts of the moral law. "I am not come to destroy," Christ says, "but to fulfill,"--"to magnify the law and make it honorable," as Isaiah, hundreds of years before, had prophesied respecting the Messiah's work.

"To fulfill the law." In his own life the Saviour gave the children of men an example of perfect obedience. In his teachings he made clear and distinct every precept of the divine law; he swept away the rubbish of erroneous tradition with which the Jews had encumbered it; he illustrated and enforced its principles, and showed in all its particulars the length and breadth and height and depth of the righteousness required by the law of God.

The Pharisees were dissatisfied with the teachings of Christ. The practical godliness which he enjoined condemned them. They desired him to dwell upon the external observances of the ceremonial law, and the customs and traditions of the fathers. But Jesus taught the spiritual nature of the law and made clear its far-reaching claims. Love to God and to men must live in the heart and control the life, as the spring of every thought and every action.

There is perfect harmony between the law of God and the gospel of Jesus Christ. "I and my Father are one," says the great Teacher. The gospel is the good news of grace, or favor, by which man may be released from the condemnation of sin, and enabled to render acceptable obedience to the law. The gospel points to the moral code as a rule of life. That law, by its demands for undeviating obedience, is continually pointing the sinner to the gospel for pardon and peace. Says the great apostle, "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid. Yea, we establish the law." And again he declares that the "law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good." Enjoining supreme love to God, and equal love to our fellow-men, it is indispensable alike to human happiness and the glory of God.

There are persons professing to be ministers of Christ, who declare with the utmost assurance that no man ever did or ever can keep the law of God. But, according to the Scriptures, Christ "took upon himself our nature," and "was made in fashion as a man." He was man's example, man's representative, and he declares, "I have kept my Father's commandments." All who are in Christ will follow the example of Christ. All who justify the sinner in his transgression of God's law belong to that class of whom our Saviour said, "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of Heaven." They can have no part with Him who came to magnify the law and make it honorable. They are deceiving the people with their sophistry, saying to the sinner, "It shall be well with thee," when God has declared, "The soul that sinneth [transgresseth the law] it shall die."...

Christ foresaw that men would not only break the commandments of God themselves, but would teach others to break them. Some are not content with doing this by example; they defend sin, and pervert the word of God to justify the transgressor. Such persons will have no part with the people of God. But the greatest guilt rests upon the professed watchmen, who do not hesitate to speak evil of the law, and even to make those who are ignorant of the Bible believe that they are fallen from grace if they keep it. "All we have to do," say they, "is to believe in Christ, come to Christ." But they forget that when Christ came the people accepted, repented and turned from sin.

The most fatal delusion of the Christian world in this generation is, that in pouring contempt on the law of God they think they are exalting Christ. What a position! It was Christ who spoke the law from Sinai. It was Christ who gave the law to Moses, engraven on tables of stone. It was his Father's law; and Christ says, "I and my Father are one." The Pharisees held the reverse of the modern position, but were in just as great an error. They rejected Christ, but exalted the law. And it makes little difference which position is taken, so long as we ignore the true one,--that faith in Christ must be accompanied by obedience to the law of God......God's law is a copy of His mind and will. The sins forbidden there could never find a place in Heaven. It was love that prompted God to express his will in the ten precepts of the decalogue. Afterward he showed his love for man by sending prophets and teachers to explain and illustrate his holy Law. God has given man a complete rule of life in his law. Obeyed, man shall live by it, through the merits of Christ. Transgressed, it has power to condemn. The law sends men to Christ, and Christ points them back to the Law.....http://www.gilead.net/egw/books/signs-times/The_Signs_of_the_Times-1884/index.htm?http&url=www.gilead.net/egw/books/signs-times/The_Signs_of_the_Times-1884/30__Article_Title-_Immutability_of_the_Law_of_God_.htm

« Last Edit: Thu Jan 23, 2020 - 09:40:14 by Hobie »

Offline Hobie

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Re: Immutability of the Law of God or can man change Gods Law?
« Reply #1 on: Thu Mar 12, 2009 - 22:23:05 »
Now lets take a look at why Christ says about keeping the Commandments? It seems that Christ contineously held up the Commandments as a central theme for eternal life, as something to be upheld, as the basis of loving God and loving your fellow man. It is God transfering His Love to man, a understanding of Gods love throught his law.

Matthew 5:19
Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


Matthew 15:3
But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

Matthew 19:17
"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."

Matthew 22:34
[ The Greatest Commandment ] Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together.

Matthew 22:36
"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?"

Matthew 22:40
All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

Mark 7:8,9
For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

Mark 10:19
You know the commandments:'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother.' "

Mark 12:28
[ The Greatest Commandment ] One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"
And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
The second is this:'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."

Luke 1:6
Both of them were upright in the sight of God, observing all the Lord's commandments and regulations blamelessly.

Luke 18:20
You know the commandments:'Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.' "


John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:21
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.


John 15:10
If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

So why do so many people fight against what Christ so clearly upheld for us to observe, to love God and our fellow man, and this is what the 10 Commandments are, how to love God and your fellowman.
« Last Edit: Fri Jan 03, 2020 - 08:12:01 by Hobie »

Offline Hobie

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Re: Immutability of the Law of God or can man change Gods Law?
« Reply #2 on: Fri Mar 13, 2009 - 03:47:14 »
Now some say that obedience of the Law is Legalism, well lets take a look.
If we love Jesus Christ and keep his commandments which come from his eternal moral law, are we legalist because we love him and want to follow what he wants for us. I am free to do whatever I want, so is it wrong or legalistic if I want to follow what Jesus taught by keeping his commandments, not because I am forced to do it, but because I love him and want to. Many people bring up the objection that after the law has accomplished its purpose of pointing the sinner to Christ for cleansing, it will no longer be needed in the experience of the believer. Is that true, once we are saved by grace we can never turn away? No, indeed, we will always have the freewill God gave us. The Christian will always need the watchdog of the law to reveal any deviation from the true path and to point him back to the cleansing cross of Jesus. There will never be a time when that mirror of correction will not be needed in the spiritual growth experience and journey of the Christian.

Law and grace do not work in competition with each other but in perfect cooperation. The law points out sin, and grace saves from sin. The law is the will of God, and grace is the power to do the will of God. We do not obey the law in order to be saved but because we are saved. A beautiful text which combines the two in their true relationship is Revelation 14:12. "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus." What a perfect description of faith and the fruits of the Spirit! And the combination is found in those who are "saints."

Obedience is the real test of love and happens with the help of the Holy Spirit. This is why they faith and the resulting fruits of obedience necessary in the experience of a true believer. "Faith without works is dead." James 2:20. No man ever won a fair maiden's heart by words alone. Had there been no flowers, no acts of devotion, no gifts of love, most men would still be searching for a companion. Jesus said, "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." Matthew 7:21.

Words and profession are not enough. The true evidence is obedience. Today's bumper stickers reflect a shallow concept of love. They say, "Smile if you love Jesus," "Honk if you love Jesus"; but what did the Master Himself say? He said, "If ye love me, keep my commandments." John 14:15. And that is exactly what most people don't want to do. If love makes no demands beyond a smile or wave, then it is welcome; but if the lifestyle must be disturbed, the majority will reject it. Unfortunately, most people today are not looking for truth. They are looking for a smooth, easy, comfortable religion which will allow them to live the way they please and still give assurance of salvation. There is indeed no true religion which can do that for them.

One of the strongest texts in the Bible on this subject is found in 1 John 2:4. "He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." John could write that with such assurance because it is one of the most deeply established truths in the Bible. Jesus spoke of those who said, "Lord, Lord," but did not do the will of the Father. Then He described many who would seek entrance to the kingdom claiming to be workers of miracles in the name of Christ. But He would sorrowfully have to say, "I never knew you: depart from me." Matthew 7:21-23. You see, to know Christ is to love Him, and to love Him is to obey Him. The valid assumption of the Bible writers is very clear and simple: If one is not obeying Christ, he does not love Christ. And if he doesn't love the Master, then he doesn't know Him. John assured us, "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." John 17:3. Thus, we can see how knowing and loving and obeying are all tied closely together and are absolutely inseparable in the life of God's faithful people. The beloved John summed it up in these words: "For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous." 1 John 5:3.

Offline Hobie

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Re: Immutability of the Law of God or can man change Gods Law?
« Reply #3 on: Fri Mar 13, 2009 - 15:51:22 »
Gods 10 Commandments are everlasting they do not change, but even the Jews will admit that the law of Moses is arbitrary depending on the individual Rabbi or teacher interpreting it, and no longer apply as even they admit freely "cannot be observed today primarily related to the Temple, its sacrifices and services (because the Temple does not exist) and criminal procedures (because the theocratic state of Israel does not exist)."

God's Law has always been known as the Ten Commandments, which was written upon two tables of stone with the finger of God. It was placed inside the Ark of the Covenant, representing God's throne in heaven, and protected within the innermost veil of the Tabernacle. No man except the High Priest was permitted to enter this sacred place on earth, but once a year.

The law of Moses was contained in the book that he had written, and it was placed in the side of the Ark.

Moses law was a witness against us
Deuteronomy 31:24-26
24. And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished,
25. That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the Lord, saying,
26. Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

Moses law was subject to change
Hebrews 7:12. For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Moses Law wasn't perfect, nor did it make anyone perfect
Hebrews 10:1. For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

Moses Law could not justify anyone
Galatians 3:11. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Moses Law brought a curse upon those who didn't continue in all it said
Galatians 3:10. For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Galatians 5:2, 3
2. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
3. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Galatians 5:4. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Moses law was nailed to the cross, and therefore abolished
Ephesians 2:15. Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Colossians 2:14. Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to His cross;

Matthew 27:50, 51
50. Jesus, when He had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom;

Jews were judged according to those thing written in the law of Moses. The people were also told within the law of Moses what they had to do when they transgressed the Ten Commandments. Deuteronomy showed the blessings, when they obeyed God's Law, and cursings, when they disobeyed God's Law.

But now, there is no longer a temple in Jerusalem to go up to three times in the year. By sacrificing animals this side of the cross, we would not be accepting the truth that our redemption is in Christ alone. If you say, "Oh, we know we don't need to sacrifice, but we do need too observe days, months, times, and annual sabbath," or other of the 613 mitzvot (commandments of Moses) what you are saying about Christ and his sacrifice. Those were done away at the cross, but Gods Law was not, it is eternal.

However, the adherants of 613 mitzvot (commandments of Moses) or keeping the laws of Moses partially, now have two problems.

1. They are not able to keep it in every particular, thus a partial fulfillment, is no fulfillment at all.

2. If you seek to do these things which Jesus has already fulfilled, you have denied Him in total. Thus, you are then brought under what is found in Hebrews 10 brought upon those who reject Christ as the fulfillment of the law of Moses:

Hebrews 10:26-29
26. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,(Thus saith the Lord, "I AM the Way, the Truth, and the Life, no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me." John 14:6)
27. But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29. Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Moses himself warned his brethren according to the flesh about the coming Prophet:
Acts 3:22, 23
22. For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A Prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; Him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
23. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that Prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

Offline Hobie

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Re: Immutability of the Law of God or can man change Gods Law?
« Reply #4 on: Fri Mar 13, 2009 - 15:53:23 »
Now some claim that Seventh Day Adventists are wrong when they say that there are differences, or divisions within the 613 laws that were given to the nation of Israel. They say that all the laws are the same, and that Seventh Day Adventists should follow the 613 mitzvot (commandments of Moses) and that none should be treated differently from the other. Therefore, they conclude, when the New Testament speaks about a law that has been abolished and nailed to the cross, it includes all of the Old Testament laws, including the 10 Commandments. This kind of reasoning is be a bit strange since there are instances in the New Testament where Paul or one of the other authors commands their readers to obey one or more of those commandments. For example, Paul says in the following passage:

Ephesians 6:1-3
(1) Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.
(2) Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise
(3) That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.

Yet we read Paul in another instance say that the commandments have been done away with:

Ephesians 2:15
(15) Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace

Yet despite what some people might want to say, there is a difference here. One of these is a commandment contained within the Decalogue, the 10 Commandments, of which Moses said that God “added no more

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Re: Immutability of the Law of God or can man change Gods Law?
« Reply #4 on: Fri Mar 13, 2009 - 15:53:23 »



Tantor

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Re: Immutability of the Law of God or can man change Gods Law?
« Reply #5 on: Fri Mar 13, 2009 - 15:54:49 »
Man didn't change them... Jesus did.

Offline Hobie

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Re: Immutability of the Law of God or can man change Gods Law?
« Reply #6 on: Fri Mar 13, 2009 - 18:44:18 »
Jesus never changed the Bible Sabbath to Sunday. He did not do it during His earthly life, as recorded in the four Gospels, and He did not do it at any other time. Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath (Matthew 12:8, Mark 2:28), because He made it (Genesis 2:1-3); for He is the Creator (John 1:3, Colossians 1:16, Hebrews 1:1-3).

It is His day, the Lord’s Day (Revelation 1:10). While on earth it was His custom to keep the Bible Sabbath and thus give us a careful example of obedience to it (Luke 4:16). He magnified the law and made it honorable (Isaiah 42:21) as he rebuked man-made changes in His laws (Matt 15:9, 6). He told us the Sabbath was not made for a certain race—but for "man"—mankind—you and me (Mark 2:27).

Just before His death He predicted the destruction of Jerusalem thirty-nine years later, in A.D. 70, and the end of the world (Matthew 24); and He cautioned His followers to continue to carefully observe the Sabbath when those terrible events should come to pass years, and even centuries, later (Matthew 24:3, 20). He carefully instructed His disciples to keep His day holy, and He wanted them to "remember the Sabbath day" (Exodus 20:8) long after He had returned to heaven. No, there is no word, no hint anywhere in Scripture that Jesus ever changed the Sabbath to Sunday.

Is it possible that Jesus told the disciples and they then went and changed the Sabbath, well they would have said something and written it down, and there is nothing. Could they have just decided it by themselves and not told anyone, is that possible.

The disciples would have no more right to change one of the Ten Commandments than you or I would. What man has a right to change the law of God? Only our Creator, the One who gave us the Moral Law and the Sabbath, would have this right.

The followers of Jesus faithfully kept the Bible Sabbath after His death (Luke 23:56), and later in their missionary work (Acts 13:14-16, 40-46; 16:12-15, 17:1-4). They declared that we ought to obey God rather than men (Acts 5:29); and Paul could sincerely say of himself and his fellow believers: "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law" (Romans 3:31). Indeed, the Word of God was being fulfilled, that the Gentiles would one day faithfully keep the Sabbath that the Jews were desecrating (Isaiah 56:3-7). Neither the least disciple nor the greatest apostle dared to presume to change the law of God. Nor could they have done so, even if they had tried. No man has successfully been able to do this, although there have been men (such as the pope of Rome) who have claimed such authority.

Tantor

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Re: Immutability of the Law of God or can man change Gods Law?
« Reply #7 on: Sat Mar 14, 2009 - 20:05:25 »
Jesus never changed the Bible Sabbath to Sunday. He did not do it during His earthly life, as recorded in the four Gospels, and He did not do it at any other time. Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath (Matthew 12:8, Mark 2:28), because He made it (Genesis 2:1-3); for He is the Creator (John 1:3, Colossians 1:16, Hebrews 1:1-3).

It is His day, the Lord’s Day (Revelation 1:10). While on earth it was His custom to keep the Bible Sabbath and thus give us a careful example of obedience to it (Luke 4:16). He magnified the law and made it honorable (Isaiah 42:21) as he rebuked man-made changes in His laws (Matt 15:9, 6). He told us the Sabbath was not made for a certain race—but for "man"—mankind—you and me (Mark 2:27).

Just before His death He predicted the destruction of Jerusalem thirty-nine years later, in A.D. 70, and the end of the world (Matthew 24); and He cautioned His followers to continue to carefully observe the Sabbath when those terrible events should come to pass years, and even centuries, later (Matthew 24:3, 20). He carefully instructed His disciples to keep His day holy, and He wanted them to "remember the Sabbath day" (Exodus 20:8) long after He had returned to heaven. No, there is no word, no hint anywhere in Scripture that Jesus ever changed the Sabbath to Sunday.

Is it possible that Jesus told the disciples and they then went and changed the Sabbath, well they would have said something and written it down, and there is nothing. Could they have just decided it by themselves and not told anyone, is that possible.

The disciples would have no more right to change one of the Ten Commandments than you or I would. What man has a right to change the law of God? Only our Creator, the One who gave us the Moral Law and the Sabbath, would have this right.

The followers of Jesus faithfully kept the Bible Sabbath after His death (Luke 23:56), and later in their missionary work (Acts 13:14-16, 40-46; 16:12-15, 17:1-4). They declared that we ought to obey God rather than men (Acts 5:29); and Paul could sincerely say of himself and his fellow believers: "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law" (Romans 3:31). Indeed, the Word of God was being fulfilled, that the Gentiles would one day faithfully keep the Sabbath that the Jews were desecrating (Isaiah 56:3-7). Neither the least disciple nor the greatest apostle dared to presume to change the law of God. Nor could they have done so, even if they had tried. No man has successfully been able to do this, although there have been men (such as the pope of Rome) who have claimed such authority.

I disagree.. Jesus summarised the law by stating what was the intent of the law.  Adherance to the old testament law was to foster a particular type of behavior in Israel.

Jesus was given the opportunity to affirm the Sabbath... but he didn't.. I think that speaks volumes.

Amo

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Re: Immutability of the Law of God or can man change Gods Law?
« Reply #8 on: Sun Mar 15, 2009 - 09:59:48 »
Quote
I disagree.. Jesus summarised the law by stating what was the intent of the law.  Adherance to the old testament law was to foster a particular type of behavior in Israel.

Jesus was given the opportunity to affirm the Sabbath... but he didn't.. I think that speaks volumes.

I do not see the relevance of the above logic.  Jesus did not deny the Sabbath either, therefore, according to your logic, that would have to speak volumes against your volumes.  Thus making it, a moot point.  On the other hand, Jesus Himself kept the Sabbath, surely then according to your own logic this speaks volumes. 

He also tried to teach the Jews it's proper observance, which they had twisted making the day a burden, instead of a blessing.  This of course should also speak volumes, since He could have just as well used these occasions to point out that the Sabbath really didn't matter any more, because it was going to be changed.  He never even hinted at such a major change, which of course speaks volumes. 

He also taught that He had not come to change the law, or the prophets, and that no one could change them before heaven and earth had past.  He said that anyone who said they had been changed and taught the same, would be called least in the kingdom of heaven.  Do you understand the implications of being called least in the kingdom of heaven?  This of course speaks major volumes since the Sabbath commandment is found right in the middle of the rest of the law, and is in fact he longest and most detailed commandment.  Even stating who God is, and why He has authority. 

Then of course there is the fact that the Apostles and the early Church still kept the Sabbath long after Christ's death and resurrection, speaking all the more volumes.  Lets not forget of course that Jesus told His followers to pray that their flight might not be on the Sabbath day, when referring to prophecy concerning the future, which itself speaks volumes.  It seems like you are ignoring an awful lot of volumes, in order to maintain a moot point as far as Jesus' actions and words speaking volumes goes.  We all have the right to choose though.  As time goes on all will be faced with a decision regarding this matter.

Tantor

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Re: Immutability of the Law of God or can man change Gods Law?
« Reply #9 on: Mon Mar 16, 2009 - 09:14:17 »
Quote
I disagree.. Jesus summarised the law by stating what was the intent of the law.  Adherance to the old testament law was to foster a particular type of behavior in Israel.

Jesus was given the opportunity to affirm the Sabbath... but he didn't.. I think that speaks volumes.

I do not see the relevance of the above logic.  Jesus did not deny the Sabbath either, therefore, according to your logic, that would have to speak volumes against your volumes.  Thus making it, a moot point.  On the other hand, Jesus Himself kept the Sabbath, surely then according to your own logic this speaks volumes. 

He also tried to teach the Jews it's proper observance, which they had twisted making the day a burden, instead of a blessing.  This of course should also speak volumes, since He could have just as well used these occasions to point out that the Sabbath really didn't matter any more, because it was going to be changed.  He never even hinted at such a major change, which of course speaks volumes. 

He also taught that He had not come to change the law, or the prophets, and that no one could change them before heaven and earth had past.  He said that anyone who said they had been changed and taught the same, would be called least in the kingdom of heaven.  Do you understand the implications of being called least in the kingdom of heaven?  This of course speaks major volumes since the Sabbath commandment is found right in the middle of the rest of the law, and is in fact he longest and most detailed commandment.  Even stating who God is, and why He has authority. 

Then of course there is the fact that the Apostles and the early Church still kept the Sabbath long after Christ's death and resurrection, speaking all the more volumes.  Lets not forget of course that Jesus told His followers to pray that their flight might not be on the Sabbath day, when referring to prophecy concerning the future, which itself speaks volumes.  It seems like you are ignoring an awful lot of volumes, in order to maintain a moot point as far as Jesus' actions and words speaking volumes goes.  We all have the right to choose though.  As time goes on all will be faced with a decision regarding this matter.

Jesus was a JEW.. he had to follow the Old Law because his DBR had not happened yet... so you can look to Jesus as being the Ideal Jew.. but his actions do not provide any sort of roll model for post DBR.

And no, I am not ignoring volumes... I just refuse to mush them all together and not take time, context and culture into account.

And all the prophesies were fulfilled at the destruction of the temple in AD 70... so they no longer should be worred about by today's church.

Offline teresaq

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Re: Immutability of the Law of God or can man change Gods Law?
« Reply #10 on: Mon Mar 16, 2009 - 14:03:38 »

Jesus was a JEW.. he had to follow the Old Law because his DBR had not happened yet... so you can look to Jesus as being the Ideal Jew.. but his actions do not provide any sort of roll model for post DBR.   

i dont understand.  are you saying it is now ok to steal, covet, bear false witness against our fellowman, etc?

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And all the prophesies were fulfilled at the destruction of the temple in AD 70... so they no longer should be worred about by today's church.

the disciples asked Jesus two questions.  Jesus gave one answer to both questions.

Mat 24:2  And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Mat 24:3  And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be?  (first question)

and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?  (second question)

Tantor

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Re: Immutability of the Law of God or can man change Gods Law?
« Reply #11 on: Mon Mar 16, 2009 - 14:11:21 »

Jesus was a JEW.. he had to follow the Old Law because his DBR had not happened yet... so you can look to Jesus as being the Ideal Jew.. but his actions do not provide any sort of roll model for post DBR.   

i dont understand.  are you saying it is now ok to steal, covet, bear false witness against our fellowman, etc?

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And all the prophesies were fulfilled at the destruction of the temple in AD 70... so they no longer should be worred about by today's church.

the disciples asked Jesus two questions.  Jesus gave one answer to both questions.

Mat 24:2  And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Mat 24:3  And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be?  (first question)

and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?  (second question)


I'm saying that when Jesus said to "Love the Lord your God with all your mind, heart and soul and love your neighbor as yourself".. he set a higher standard then the 10 commandments.

And if you loved your neighbor as yourself your questions would become moot.

So just obeying the 'sabbath" as a matter of law now falls flat on its face as being inadequate adherence.. just as the Jewish leaders of Jesus day did not understand what the law was for.

Offline Hobie

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Re: Immutability of the Law of God or can man change Gods Law?
« Reply #12 on: Mon Mar 16, 2009 - 16:21:30 »

Jesus was a JEW.. he had to follow the Old Law because his DBR had not happened yet... so you can look to Jesus as being the Ideal Jew.. but his actions do not provide any sort of roll model for post DBR.   

i dont understand.  are you saying it is now ok to steal, covet, bear false witness against our fellowman, etc?

Quote
And all the prophesies were fulfilled at the destruction of the temple in AD 70... so they no longer should be worred about by today's church.

the disciples asked Jesus two questions.  Jesus gave one answer to both questions.

Mat 24:2  And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Mat 24:3  And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be?  (first question)

and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?  (second question)


I'm saying that when Jesus said to "Love the Lord your God with all your mind, heart and soul and love your neighbor as yourself".. he set a higher standard then the 10 commandments.

And if you loved your neighbor as yourself your questions would become moot.

So just obeying the 'sabbath" as a matter of law now falls flat on its face as being inadequate adherence.. just as the Jewish leaders of Jesus day did not understand what the law was for.


The first four Commandments show you how to love God the next six are how to love your neighbor, so the Sabbath is just part of how to love God and worship Him...

Offline teresaq

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Re: Immutability of the Law of God or can man change Gods Law?
« Reply #13 on: Mon Mar 16, 2009 - 22:22:37 »

Jesus was a JEW.. he had to follow the Old Law because his DBR had not happened yet... so you can look to Jesus as being the Ideal Jew.. but his actions do not provide any sort of roll model for post DBR.   

i dont understand.  are you saying it is now ok to steal, covet, bear false witness against our fellowman, etc?

Quote
And all the prophesies were fulfilled at the destruction of the temple in AD 70... so they no longer should be worred about by today's church.

the disciples asked Jesus two questions.  Jesus gave one answer to both questions.

Mat 24:2  And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Mat 24:3  And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be?  (first question)

and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?  (second question)


I'm saying that when Jesus said to "Love the Lord your God with all your mind, heart and soul and love your neighbor as yourself".. he set a higher standard then the 10 commandments.

And if you loved your neighbor as yourself your questions would become moot.

So just obeying the 'sabbath" as a matter of law now falls flat on its face as being inadequate adherence.. just as the Jewish leaders of Jesus day did not understand what the law was for.


i guess you have never "proved" the Lord, in this regard. :)

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1Th 5:21  Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.


the sabbath, as a special time to meet the Lord, is an absolute delight, not a "matter of law".  it is just the same as
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Exo 20:3  Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
and any other commandment in all its layers that we are given.

there was a reason david said
Psa 1:1  Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
Psa 1:2  But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.

when we study the law and the life of Jesus together then we can much see how to
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I'm saying that when Jesus said to "Love the Lord your God with all your mind, heart and soul and love your neighbor as yourself".. he set a higher standard then the 10 commandments.

And if you loved your neighbor as yourself your questions would become moot.
as you say above. 

otherwise what would be our guide in following  those two commands of the Lord?

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Re: Immutability of the Law of God or can man change Gods Law?
« Reply #14 on: Wed Mar 18, 2009 - 19:27:18 »
Quote
I'm saying that when Jesus said to "Love the Lord your God with all your mind, heart and soul and love your neighbor as yourself".. he set a higher standard then the 10 commandments.

And if you loved your neighbor as yourself your questions would become moot.

So just obeying the 'sabbath" as a matter of law now falls flat on its face as being inadequate adherence.. just as the Jewish leaders of Jesus day did not understand what the law was for.

Your point is moot.  Jesus admonished the Israelites to do the same in the Old Covenant.

Deut 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: 5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. 6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:

Deut 11:1 Therefore thou shalt love the LORD thy God, and keep his charge, and his statutes, and his judgments, and his commandments, alway.

Deut 11:13 And it shall come to pass, if ye shall hearken diligently unto my commandments which I command you this day, to love the LORD your God, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul,

Deut 11:22 For if ye shall diligently keep all these commandments which I command you, to do them, to love the LORD your God, to walk in all his ways, and to cleave unto him;

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me:and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Who do you think spoke to Moses from the burning bush?  Who do you think descended upon the mountain and spoke the ten commandments?  Who do you think led the children of Israel through the wilderness?  It was our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.  When He was here in our flesh and told us to love God with all your heart and soul, and your neighbor as yourself, he was simply repeating that which He had already told Israel.  That which they, and we all, are so apt to forget.

Deut 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

1 Cor 7:18 Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised. 19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Deut 30:16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

I Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

I Jn 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Lev 19:17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him. 18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

Lev 19:34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

Deut 10:19 Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.






Offline Hobie

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Re: Immutability of the Law of God or can man change Gods Law?
« Reply #15 on: Sat Apr 04, 2009 - 16:02:03 »
Excellent post...

Offline Hobie

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Re: Immutability of the Law of God or can man change Gods Law?
« Reply #16 on: Fri May 01, 2009 - 06:18:00 »
People often let each other down, even friends as well as we ourselves often prove fickle, but the Lord who never changes, never lets us down. This is why our trust should never be in man but in God as Jeremiah 17:5 warns, “Cursed be man that trust in mankind and makes flesh his strength.

Offline teresaq

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Re: Immutability of the Law of God or can man change Gods Law?
« Reply #17 on: Fri May 01, 2009 - 23:00:51 »
beautiful verses and thoughts!  thank yu for sharing them!

Offline Hobie

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Re: Immutability of the Law of God or can man change Gods Law?
« Reply #18 on: Fri Mar 05, 2010 - 23:43:31 »
Ur welcome

Offline Hobie

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Re: Immutability of the Law of God or can man change Gods Law?
« Reply #19 on: Fri Jan 03, 2020 - 08:13:07 »
Man didn't change them... Jesus did.

Please show us from Gods word..

Offline Cathlodox

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Re: Immutability of the Law of God or can man change Gods Law?
« Reply #20 on: Fri Jan 03, 2020 - 09:41:58 »
Hobbie,

Man is NOT COMMANDED by Nature to observe the Sabbath - this makes the timing of the Sabbath accidental and absolutely ceremonial for the exact same reasons that the Day of Atonement & Tabernacles were also ceremonial "Feasts of the Lord". Man was no more commanded by Nature to observe a specific Feast on a specific day than an Orangutan is commanded by Nature to construct a space ship for Interstellar travel.

Man had to be told / instructed about ceremonial aspects of the law - it is THESE aspects that were subject to change and were described in the New Testament as shadows.  So yes, there IS a moral or nature command to set aside some time for the worship of something bigger than us - this can be observed in literally every culture throughout history - THAT IS THE PART THAT'S MORAL OR NATURAL - and then there is the specifics of how the god is worshiped and WHEN (THAT PART IS CEREMONIAL).

I really do admire SDA's devotion to the 7th day Sabbath, I believe its genuine - it's just when they claim that Scripture teaches that if one doesn't accept the Gregorian Saturday as a Sabbath and worship on it they get the Mark of the Beast - it's that part that get's the SDA's the negative publicity they get - it's just absurd and frankly the Sabbath issue is the very LEAST of their doctrinal problems and possibly the most harmless.


Offline Amo

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Re: Immutability of the Law of God or can man change Gods Law?
« Reply #21 on: Sat Jan 04, 2020 - 19:02:54 »
Wow. Resurrected thread from ten years ago.