GCM Home | Bible Search | Rules | Donate | Bookstore | RSS | Facebook | Twitter

Author Topic: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...  (Read 10402 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline djconklin

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 986
  • Manna: 11
    • View Profile
Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #150 on: January 09, 2012, 10:18:48 AM »
>Of course not all moedim are chagim.

Some people think  that they are one and the same.
"Analyzing Alleged Plagiarism in Nineteenth-Century Literature: A Case Study of Ellen G. White’s The Desire of Ages," by David J. Conklin, Jerry Moon, and Kevin Morgan Plagiary 2008 3(5): 1-29.

That study compared 47 authors with each other.  I now have 225 in the study.  The critics have yet to do even two authors.  That would require work; it is much easier to tell a lie.
---
When they cannot and will not tell you the truth on the simple stuff, why should you trust them on the more complex?

"At the end of the day, the truth is the only thing we have." Horatio Caine, CSI: Miami

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #150 on: January 09, 2012, 10:18:48 AM »

Online DaveW

  • Tikkun International
  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11390
  • Manna: 154
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #151 on: January 09, 2012, 10:23:26 AM »
Luk_24:46  Then He (JESUS) said to them, "Thus IT is WRITTEN, and thus it was NECESSARY for the Christ TO “SUFFER
« Last Edit: January 09, 2012, 10:43:39 AM by DaveW »

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #151 on: January 09, 2012, 10:23:26 AM »

Offline Michael G

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 351
  • Manna: 2
    • View Profile
Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #152 on: January 09, 2012, 10:57:45 AM »
Luk_24:46  Then He (JESUS) said to them, "Thus IT is WRITTEN, and thus it was NECESSARY for the Christ TO “SUFFER

Offline djconklin

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 986
  • Manna: 11
    • View Profile
Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #153 on: January 09, 2012, 11:08:03 AM »
KJV Matthew 16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

KJV Matthew 17:23 And they shall kill him, and the third day he shall be raised again. And they were exceeding sorry.

KJV Matthew 20:19 And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify him: and the third day he shall rise again.

KJV Matthew 27:64 Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first.

His enemies understood what he meant.

KJV Mark 9:31 For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.

KJV Mark 10:34 And they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him, and shall kill him: and the third day he shall rise again.

KJV Luke 9:22 Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day.

KJV Luke 18:33 And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.

Note that NONE of the texts say "after the third day."  All tell you that He would rise on the third day.
"Analyzing Alleged Plagiarism in Nineteenth-Century Literature: A Case Study of Ellen G. White’s The Desire of Ages," by David J. Conklin, Jerry Moon, and Kevin Morgan Plagiary 2008 3(5): 1-29.

That study compared 47 authors with each other.  I now have 225 in the study.  The critics have yet to do even two authors.  That would require work; it is much easier to tell a lie.
---
When they cannot and will not tell you the truth on the simple stuff, why should you trust them on the more complex?

"At the end of the day, the truth is the only thing we have." Horatio Caine, CSI: Miami

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #153 on: January 09, 2012, 11:08:03 AM »

Online DaveW

  • Tikkun International
  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11390
  • Manna: 154
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #154 on: January 09, 2012, 11:13:04 AM »
Quote
much simplicity of NT scriptures testimony  destroyed by wild GYMNASTIC assumptions about one scripture in the Bible, using Mat 12.40 For just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Proper biblical intrepretation will fit ALL PLACES. If one does not fit you need to look at it again to find another intrepretation.

IOW, proof-texting does not prove anything but it can disprove some things.

Again, Luke wrote "it is written" and Paul uses "according to the scriptures." When I see that, I want to go look at the Hebrew of that text. Do you have another place where the "third day" is written "according to the scriptures" in the OT? Since both appeal to what was already written, I think that would be the proper place to look at how to understand these statements.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #154 on: January 09, 2012, 11:13:04 AM »



Offline Michael G

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 351
  • Manna: 2
    • View Profile
Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #155 on: January 09, 2012, 11:31:02 AM »


Note that NONE of the texts say "after the third day."  All tell you that He would rise on the third day.

AMEN

Matthew 16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how he would be RAISED the THIRD DAY.

Matthew 17:23 the THIRD DAY he shall BE RAISED

Matthew 20:19  the THIRD DAY he shall RISE

Matthew 27:64 be made sure UNTIL the THIRD DAY,

Mark 9:31 he shall RISE the THIRD DAY.

Mark 10:34 and the THIRD DAY he shall RISE

Luke 9:22 be RAISED the THIRD DAY.

Luke 18:33 the THIRD DAY he shall RISE


and that would mean if the scriptures say it was the First day of the week he arose, then counting backwards from Sunday being the 3rd day he arose , Saturday would be the 2nd day and Friday would be the 1st day, and there is no other days preceding.  


Joh 20:1 Now the FIRST day of the WEEK Mary Magdalene went to the TOMB EARLY,

Mar 16:2 Very EARLY in the MORNING, on the FIRST day of the WEEK, they came to the tomb when the sun had risen.

Luk 24:1 Now ON the “FIRST
« Last Edit: January 09, 2012, 11:50:50 AM by Michael G »

Online DaveW

  • Tikkun International
  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11390
  • Manna: 154
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #156 on: January 09, 2012, 12:06:54 PM »
Look we have all had our say.  But I must ask the question, does this REALLY matter, either to salvation or to fellowship?

I think we are all pretty much on the same page that the Resurrection was on a sunday (which starts at sundown saturday evening) so beyond that, does it matter? 

I can argue on for an earlier than friday crucifiction. But since we Messianics keep it (Passover, Crucifiction and First Fruits/Resurrection) according to a Hebrew calendar, we will sometimes be out of sync with you all anyway.

Is there a point in continuing?

Offline Michael G

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 351
  • Manna: 2
    • View Profile
Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #157 on: January 09, 2012, 02:01:29 PM »



DAVEW Wrote:
I think we are all pretty much on the same page that the Resurrection was on a sunday (which starts at sundown saturday evening) so beyond that, does it matter?

I can argue on for an earlier than friday crucifiction. But since we Messianics keep it (Passover, Crucifiction and First Fruits/Resurrection) according to a Hebrew calendar, we will sometimes be out of sync with you all anyway.

Is there a point in continuing?
[/quote]

Michael G writes; edited

The point is the teaching of the theory of Wednesday Crucifixion based on Messianic belief and or using one New Testament scripture in the NT to prove a point while destroying many NT Bible scripture Testimony is not good teaching.

Many have fallen into the trap of ONE particular scripture in the NT about the WHALE and JONAH and what it means. They are led by Man to think the HEART of the EARTH means TOMB, when Bible concordance definitions GREEK MEANINGS say otherwise, if they would use the GREEK concordance for those words used, They would see that the word Heart used is the GREEK word “KARDIA
« Last Edit: January 09, 2012, 07:07:22 PM by Michael G »

Offline Beta

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1804
  • Manna: 126
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #158 on: January 09, 2012, 02:47:43 PM »
Quote
Ok Dave, you believe that all the children of Israel were Jews...I don't !
Scripture says they were a mixed multitude Ex.12.
Yes and they  ::tippinghat:: intermarried into the Israelites and their offspring WERE Israelites (what we would call today Jews).

Quote
You want to keep the physical laws as in the OT ?
I have listed several times a link to a book on the 613 laws of the Mosaic covenant being written my my rabbi and the founder of our brotherhood of synagogues on which commands can and should be kept and HOW in a New Covenant environment.
Quote
NT does not teach that or we would still be sacrificing animals
Paul did in Acts 21.
Quote
The sabbath law was separate and spiritual and given By GOD persnally...
Not seperate at all.  All 613 were given personally by God.

I'am not going to continue this any longer Dave as we are totally out of step now and why would I read other people's writings when I have the Bible ? Are you suggesting they know better than God ?.
Have a nice day !   ::tippinghat::

Offline Beta

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1804
  • Manna: 126
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #159 on: January 09, 2012, 02:56:49 PM »
Acts 21.23 Therefore do what we tell you. We have four men who have taken a vow.
24 Take them, and purify yourself with them, and pay their expenses for them, that they may shave their heads. Then all will know that there is no truth in the things that they have been informed about you, but that you yourself also walk keeping the law.
25 But concerning the Gentiles who believe, we have written our decision that they should observe no such thing, except that they should keep themselves from food offered to idols, from blood, from strangled things, and from sexual immorality.

Offline Beta

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1804
  • Manna: 126
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #160 on: January 09, 2012, 03:17:30 PM »
BETA wrote:

"MG , I have already SAID ...SEVERAL TIMES...I have NO PROBLEM with Jesus RISING the 3RD DAY.

The thing is WE CAN NOT AGREE WHICH was the 3RD DAY.

YOU are RELYING on what the APOSTLES were sayng and I RELY on what JESUS HIMSELF SAID as well as taking into account the 'High day and the weekly SABBATH which you seem to be 'lumping together as one day'. Since they are not one and the same day it puts a different slant on the time of resurrection. And btw; when would the women have had time to buy and prepare spices from sunset friday to sunrise sunday ?"


Michael G writes:

So let’s get this straight Beta, you think when Jesus was walking with his disciples to EMMAUS it was on SATURDAY the SEVENTH DAY of the WEEK, when LUKE wrote; and the Disciples SAID it was THIRD DAY, is that my correct understanding?

Luk 24:46  Then He (JESUS) said to them, "Thus IT is WRITTEN, and thus it was NECESSARY for the Christ TO “SUFFER

Online DaveW

  • Tikkun International
  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11390
  • Manna: 154
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #161 on: January 10, 2012, 06:12:24 AM »
Taking a ' one time vow' is something quite different than making regular animal sacrifices and Paul did not do so on a continuous basis...besides it is not something any gentile person could do. It was a 'one time thing for Paul. But I will study the chapter.
I agree it was a one time deal.  But it was an important one because James indicated that by doing so Paul was agreeing that Mosaic observance was still entirely appropriate for Jewish Believers in the New Covenant while exempting Gentile believers.
Quote
You are seriously confusing people ,Dave.

In what way?  I am simply showing something that has been in scripture for the last 1900 years.  If there is any confusion it is because some things got ignored or reintrepreted from a genitle viewpoint that is not consistant with the authors of the bible.

Offline Michael G

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 351
  • Manna: 2
    • View Profile
Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #162 on: January 12, 2012, 11:03:45 PM »
If you note from the other synoptic gospels you find that the women arrived at the tomb (now empty) at dawn.  HE was already risen. Please also note there were no guards when they arrived. (otherwise they would have not gotten close to the tomb) Roman guards stood in 3 8-hour watches, and since it was recorded that they went to the temple priests who paid them to lie that the body was stolen.

So the women got there probably around 5 - 6 am and the guards were gone meaning that the resurrection could have occured no earlier than 9 pm Saturday evening (which in Jewish timekeeping is the First Day).  The fact that both Jewish and Gentile Messianic believers seem to have made a big deal of the Havdala service (starts at sundown Saturday evening - beginning of the First Day) would make sense if the resurrection occured on saturday evening.

Not proof but evidence pointing to that scenario.
You are right ..there were no eye-witnessess...all we have is scripture 1Cor.15v3,4.
First we have Jesus' own sign/prediction Mat.12v38,40 of 3 days and 3 nights. Here people go mad saying it could mean anything , a portion of a day , a few minutes, a few hours ...whatever fits your own understanding. But Jesus explains in Joh.11v9,10 that there are 12 hours in each period making it 72 hours in all. Since we are talking about "biblical evidence" we must take the bible serious...and not insert human ideas.
We know from scripture Jesus was put into the tomb just before sunset on the day of 'preparation which was before the beginning of the 'High day/Sabbath  mentioned in Joh.19v14,31. IF you take this to be a Friday and count 72 hours then the resurrection would have been on monday sunset.
But the last sunset before sunday morning when the women arrived at the empty tomb was on the Sabbath , the weekly Sabbath ....no matter what time the women arrived sunday....Jesus was risen and not there.
So because He was 'discovered' risen on sunday people "assume" he rose on sunday (careless or deliberate false reasoning and a great opportunity to deceive). but all this points to is the arrival of the women at that time...it is not saying Jesus rose at that time. To God this means a difference but maybe not to ignorant man.


The problem that you have Beta is proving Jesus was raised on Saturday and you must prove without a doubt with simplicity that Jesus showed himself on Saturday or the prophecy is not of any value,,

Scripture is very clear Jesus showed himself openly on Sunday to confirm he was risen not Saturday.

Offline Hobie

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1303
  • Manna: 16
    • View Profile
Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #163 on: January 13, 2012, 04:27:28 AM »
Jesus kept the sabbath in the time zone he was in.

The sabbath in Israel is on a Saturday, but when it is Saturday in Israel it is a different day in other parts of the world.

When it is Saturday in Israel it is Friday in the U.S.


God knows where you are,  and when the Sabbath comes, no matter where you are.

Offline Beta

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1804
  • Manna: 126
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #164 on: January 13, 2012, 02:28:25 PM »
Taking a ' one time vow' is something quite different than making regular animal sacrifices and Paul did not do so on a continuous basis...besides it is not something any gentile person could do. It was a 'one time thing for Paul. But I will study the chapter.
I agree it was a one time deal.  But it was an important one because James indicated that by doing so Paul was agreeing that Mosaic observance was still entirely appropriate for Jewish Believers in the New Covenant while exempting Gentile believers.
Quote
You are seriously confusing people ,Dave.

In what way?  I am simply showing something that has been in scripture for the last 1900 years.  If there is any confusion it is because some things got ignored or reintrepreted from a genitle viewpoint that is not consistant with the authors of the bible.

Having had a careful look at Acts 21 shows that this 'vow' never reached it's final conclusion. Paul started the 'purification process but certain days had to be accomplished before the actual 'offering v26,27, and before those days were up a 'riot broke out and no offering was made.
It was not even Paul's idea for this procedure to take place but the 'jewish Brethren' suggested it to make Paul more accepted by the people. In fact prior to this Paul had been warned not to go to Jerusalem v11,12.
So this vow was a bad idea and not necessary or it would have been accomplished if God thought it right. No sacrifice took place and would have been detrimental to further teaching to gentiles by Paul.
So to say Paul practiced 'animal sacrifice is not seen from scripture.