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Author Topic: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...  (Read 10566 times)

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Online DaveW

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Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #60 on: January 02, 2012, 09:19:17 AM »
Right, pretty much.

Unfortunately it became codified where breaking the halacha rules became as bad as violating scripture itself.  Today most Jews (including Orthodox rabbis) really can't tell the difference.

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Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #60 on: January 02, 2012, 09:19:17 AM »

Offline LightHammer

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Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #61 on: January 02, 2012, 10:52:34 AM »
>It's provides nothing consequential.

Yeah, right.  A 3 years study that proves nothing.  I used material from the named experts in the field and living experts liked it!!!

>However I didnt see anything that changed the liberty of the words of St. Paul so I see no point in divulging into it again.

Then you didn't read it.  I USED the original GREEK that Paul wrote to understand what he was saying.

>2. Nope. That's not what the verse says. It says not to let anyone judge me regarding the Sabbath not about the eating and drinking done in the day. It says the Sabbath is a shadow of the body of Christ not the eating and drinking therein.

See previous--you didn't read it.

>3. I guess "Period" is supposed to be your ironclad evidence?

Yeah, resort to insults when you can't/won't use the evidence given you and wish to ignore what you were given.

>4. No where does the New Covenant teach that the Sabbath is to be observed as the sign of our spiritual rest in Christ. Hebrews clearly says the day we enter in Christ is the only day of rest.

The word is "nowhere," as in nowhere in Hebrews does it say that "the day we enter in Christ is the only day of rest."

>Your entire sentiment is meaningless.

Who said anything about a "sentiment"?    I gave a historical fact.  You wish to ignore it.


1. In yet it's on a website and not published.  Apparently the so called experts didn't like it that much.

2. I know the Greek language. It's kind of mandatory when you get into real study. Still doesn't change the liberty that the Sabbath day is no longer a means of judgment for anyone. St. Paul was the leader of Gentile evangelism so it's not hard to see the time. Colossians was written to gentiles so it's kind of easy to see what St. Paul was saying.

3. So I guess acting like a victim is the substitute for providing concrete evidence. Alrighty then.

4. Nope I quoted where Hebrews said so directly out of the Bible. You seem to not want to even address the verse at all.

4B. Don't twist my actions. I didn't deny that Christians were keeping the Sabbath. I never denied that. I said simply that it was immaterial. They were also gathering on the Lord's Day but neither were universally mandated in the time. These are simply traditional to the Christian church. In matters of obligation Christians never documented any belief in mandating Sabbath. In fact the earliest Christian codices mention the exact opposite.

The Didache is the earliest Christian writings and it specifically attests to gathering on the Lord's Day. So your claim that people gathered on the Sabbath means nothing. And I highly doubt you can even prove that they "kept" it in the manner you all claim to. However that is neither here nor there seeing how they weren't even mandating the day.

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Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #61 on: January 02, 2012, 10:52:34 AM »

Offline LightHammer

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Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #62 on: January 02, 2012, 11:16:26 AM »
LightHammer, are you saying you disagree with the following prominent Roman Catholics and or official statements?  Do you know better, and are you of higher authority within your church than they?

Emphasis mine

Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism 3rd ed., p. 174.

"Question: Have you any other way of proving that the Church has power to institute festivals of
precept?

"Answer: Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists
agree with her-she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday, the first day of the
week, for the observance of Saturday, the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural
authority."



James Cardinal Gibbons, Archbishop of Baltimore (1877-1921), in a signed letter.

"Is Saturday the seventh day according to the Bible and the Ten Commandments? I answer yes.
Is Sunday the first day of the week and did the Church change the seventh day - Saturday- for
Sunday, the first day? I answer yes. Did Christ change the day'? I answer no!

"Faithfully yours, J. Card. Gibbons"


Catholic Virginian Oct. 3, 1947, p. 9, art. "To Tell You the Truth."

"For example, nowhere in the Bible do we find that Christ or the Apostles ordered that the
Sabbath be changed from Saturday to Sunday.
We have the commandment of God given to
Moses to keep holy the Sabbath day, that is the 7th day of the week, Saturday. Today most
Christians keep Sunday because it has been revealed to us by the [Roman Catholic] church
outside the Bible."


Peter Geiermann, C.S.S.R., The Converts Catechism of Catholic Doctrine (1957), p. 50.

"Question: Which is the Sabbath day?

"Answer: Saturday is the Sabbath day.

"Question: Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?

"Answer. We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the
solemnity from Saturday to Sunday."



Martin J. Scott, Things Catholics Are Asked About (1927), p. 136.

"Nowhere in the Bible is it stated that worship should be changed from Saturday to Sunday ....
Now the Church ... instituted, by God's authority, Sunday as the day of worship. This same
Church, by the same divine authority, taught the doctrine of Purgatory long before the Bible was
made. We have, therefore, the same authority for Purgatory as we have for Sunday."


Peter R. Kraemer, Catholic Church Extension Society (1975), Chicago, Illinois.

"Regarding the change from the observance of the Jewish Sabbath to the Christian Sunday, I
wish to draw your attention to the facts:

"1) That Protestants, who accept the Bible as the only rule of faith and religion, should by all
means go back to the observance of the Sabbath.
The fact that they do not, but on the contrary
observe the Sunday, stultifies them in the eyes of every thinking man.

"2) We Catholics do not accept the Bible as the only rule of faith. Besides the Bible we have the
living Church, the authority of the Church, as a rule to guide us. We say, this Church, instituted
by Christ to teach and guide man through life, has the right to change the ceremonial laws of the
Old Testament and hence, we accept her change of the Sabbath to Sunday. We frankly say, yes,
the Church made this change, made this law,
as she made many other laws, for instance, the
Friday abstinence, the unmarried priesthood, the laws concerning mixed marriages, the
regulation of Catholic marriages and a thousand other laws.

"It is always somewhat laughable, to see the Protestant churches, in pulpit and legislation,
demand the observance of Sunday, of which there is nothing in their Bible."


From the Catholic Mirror of Sept. 23, 1893

The first proposition needs little proof. The Catholic Church for over one thousand years before
the existence of a Protestant, by virtue of her divine mission changed the day from Saturday to
Sunday.
We say by virtue of her divine mission, because he who called Himself the "Lord of the
Sabbath," endowed her with His own power to teach, "he that heareth you, heareth Me;"
commanded all who believe in Him to hear her, under penalty of being placed with the "heathen
and publican;" and promised to be with her to the end of the world. She hold her charter as
teacher from Him

Page 25

- charter as infallible as perpetual. The Protestant world at its birth found the Christian Sabbath
too strongly entrenched to run counter to its existence; it was therefore placed under the
necessity of acquiescing in the arrangement, thus implying the Church's right to change the day,
for over three hundred years. The Christian Sabbath is therefore to this day, the acknowledged
offspring of the Catholic Church as spouse of the Holy Ghost, without a word of remonstrance
from the Protestant world.


From the Catholic Mirror of Dec. 23, 1893

"The arguments contained in this pamphlet are firmly grounded on the word of God, and having been closely studied with the Bible in hand, leave no escape for the conscientious Protestant except the abandonment of Sunday worship and the return to Saturday, commanded by their teacher, the Bible, or, unwilling to abandon the tradition of the Catholic Church, which enjoins the keeping of Sunday, and which they have accepted in direct opposition to their teacher, the Bible, consistently accept her in all her teachings. Reason and common sense demand the acceptance of one or the other of these alternatives; either Protestantism and the keeping of Saturday, or Catholicity and the keeping of Sunday. Compromise is impossible."


Rome’s Challenge www.immaculateheart.com/maryonline Dec 2003

“Most Christians assume that Sunday is the biblically approved day of worship. The Catholic Church protests that it transferred Christian worship from the biblical Sabbath (Saturday) to Sunday, and that to try to argue that the change was made in the Bible is both dishonest and a denial of Catholic authority. If Protestantism wants to base its teachings only on the Bible, it should worship on Saturday.

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Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #63 on: January 02, 2012, 11:48:27 AM »
Quote
1. Well for starters most of the articles on your list are not from Catholic authorities but some are merely apologetics who aren't very good. I'm not one of your sources is even real, or rathe really a Catholic, seeing how the "father" in the title appears to have been inserted into some random guy's work.

2. Among the actual authorities listed none of them contradict anything I have claimed so what's your point in citing them?

You said the following -

Quote
1. I've already read it. It's provides nothing consequential. If perhaps you would to translate what you think is important to this thread go ahead. However I didnt see anything that changed the liberty of the words of St. Paul so I see no point in divulging into it again.

2. Nope. That's not what the verse says. It says not to let anyone judge me regarding the Sabbath not about the eating and drinking done in the day. It says the Sabbath is a shadow of the body of Christ not the eating and drinking therein.

You gave the words your own personal spin.

3. I guess "Period" is supposed to be your ironclad evidence?

4. No where does the New Covenant teach that the Sabbath is to be observed as the sign of our spiritual rest in Christ. Hebrews clearly says the day we enter in Christ is the only day of rest.

4B. And I'll say it again. Just because Christians were gathering on both the Sabbath does not mean that they believed they had to. Your entire sentiment is meaningless.

The above does not agree with the testimony given by other Catholics which I quoted.  Who is right, them, or you?  I will look into the Father T. Enright thing.

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Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #63 on: January 02, 2012, 11:48:27 AM »

Offline FireSword

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Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #64 on: January 02, 2012, 12:29:35 PM »
I think the reason why the church changed from saturday worship to sunday was to seperate themselves from the Jews, due to the Jews rejecting Jesus.

But now that the Jews are beginning to accept Jesus, the church is also now accepting the sabbath day as the true day of worship, so that both Jew and gentile accept Jesus and accept sabbath day.


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Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #64 on: January 02, 2012, 12:29:35 PM »



Offline djconklin

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Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #65 on: January 02, 2012, 02:27:21 PM »
>1. In yet it's on a website and not published.  Apparently the so called experts didn't like it that much.

That has nothing to do with it.  Apparently you know nothing about getting things published.

Have a god day.

Offline LightHammer

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Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #66 on: January 02, 2012, 02:37:38 PM »
>1. In yet it's on a website and not published.  Apparently the so called experts didn't like it that much.

That has nothing to do with it.  Apparently you know nothing about getting things published.

Have a god day.


Nice talking to you.

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Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #67 on: January 02, 2012, 03:39:23 PM »
The Didache is the earliest Christian writings and it specifically attests to gathering on the Lord's Day.
Why would people want to gather on the day of final judgement?  (day of the Lord)

Lord's day = day of the Lord linguistically.

Offline LightHammer

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Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #68 on: January 02, 2012, 05:48:24 PM »
The Didache is the earliest Christian writings and it specifically attests to gathering on the Lord's Day.
Why would people want to gather on the day of final judgement?  (day of the Lord)

Lord's day = day of the Lord linguistically.

Well for us Catholics now and the Early Church back then, the power of the Lord's resurrection was tantamount to our freedom from the sting of sin. Christ had to conquer death by His own power so those under His power would be free from it. It would've pointless if Christ was subjugated by death. We would have been as well and when we die instead of ascending from the grave as our Master did we would be bound in death separated from Him.

The resurrection is the most important aspect of Christ's ministry for those of us who stick to the traditions of the Early Church. So it's not hard to see why Christians bound Sunday as the day of assembly over Saturday.

Offline LightHammer

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Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #69 on: January 02, 2012, 05:52:41 PM »
Quote
1. Well for starters most of the articles on your list are not from Catholic authorities but some are merely apologetics who aren't very good. I'm not one of your sources is even real, or rathe really a Catholic, seeing how the "father" in the title appears to have been inserted into some random guy's work.

2. Among the actual authorities listed none of them contradict anything I have claimed so what's your point in citing them?

You said the following -

Quote
1. I've already read it. It's provides nothing consequential. If perhaps you would to translate what you think is important to this thread go ahead. However I didnt see anything that changed the liberty of the words of St. Paul so I see no point in divulging into it again.

2. Nope. That's not what the verse says. It says not to let anyone judge me regarding the Sabbath not about the eating and drinking done in the day. It says the Sabbath is a shadow of the body of Christ not the eating and drinking therein.

You gave the words your own personal spin.

3. I guess "Period" is supposed to be your ironclad evidence?

4. No where does the New Covenant teach that the Sabbath is to be observed as the sign of our spiritual rest in Christ. Hebrews clearly says the day we enter in Christ is the only day of rest.

4B. And I'll say it again. Just because Christians were gathering on both the Sabbath does not mean that they believed they had to. Your entire sentiment is meaningless.

The above does not agree with the testimony given by other Catholics which I quoted.  Who is right, them, or you?  I will look into the Father T. Enright thing.

I don't see how anything I presented contradicts any of the valid authorities you cited.

Amo

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Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #70 on: January 02, 2012, 08:57:42 PM »
Quote
I don't see how anything I presented contradicts any of the valid authorities you cited.

They said the bible does not support the change at all.  You are saying it does.

Amo

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Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #71 on: January 02, 2012, 09:04:23 PM »
Quote
I think the reason why the church changed from saturday worship to sunday was to seperate themselves from the Jews, due to the Jews rejecting Jesus.

But now that the Jews are beginning to accept Jesus, the church is also now accepting the sabbath day as the true day of worship, so that both Jew and gentile accept Jesus and accept sabbath day.

A little problematic, seeing that all the first "Christians" were Jews, who never gave up the Sabbath.  Nor did Christians themselves until a much later date.

In the 2nd Century

     "The primitive Christians did keep the Sabbath of the Jews;..therefore the Christians for
     a long time together, did keep their conventions on the Sabbath, in which some portion
     of the Law were read: and this continued till the time of the Laodicean council." The
     Whole Works of Jeremey Taylor, Vol. IX, p416 (R. Heber's Edition, Vol.XII, p.416)

     "The gentile Christians observed also the Sabbath." Gieseler's Church History, Vol.1,
     ch.2, par.30, p.93.

     "The primitive Christians had a great veneration for the Sabbath, and did spend the day
     in devotion and sermons. And it is not to be doubted but they derived this practice
     from the Apostles themselves, as appears by several scriptures to that purpose."
     Dialogues on the Lord's Day. p.189. London: 1701. By Dr. T. H. Morer.(church of
     England divine)

     "The Sabbath was a strong tie which united them with the life of the whole people, and
     by keeping the Sabbath holy they followed not only the example but the command of
     Jesus." Geschichte des Sonntags, pp.13,14.

     "It is certain that the ancient Sabbath did remain and was observed (together with the
     celebration of the Lord's day by the Christians of the East Church) three hundred years
     after the Saviour's death." A learned Treatise of the Sabbath, p.77.

In the 3rd Century.

     "The seventh-day Sabbath was.. solemnised by Christ, the Apostles, and primitive
     Christians, till the Laodicean Council did in a manner quite abolish the observation of
     it." Dissertation on the Lord's Day, pp.33,34,44.

     "As early as A.D.225 their existed large bishoprics or conferences of the church of the
     East (Sabbath-keeping) stretching from Palestine to India." Mingana, Early Spread of
     Christianity. Vol.10, p.460.

     "Thou shalt observe the Sabbath, on account of Him who ceased from His work of
     creation, but ceased not from His work of providence: it is a rest for meditation of the
     Law, not for idleness of the hands." The Anti-Nicene Fathers, Vol.7, p 413, From
     Constitutions of the Holy Apostles, A document of the 3rd and 4th centuries.

     "After the festival of the unceasing sacrifice [the crucifixion] is put the second festival of
     the Sabbath, and is fitting for whoever is righteous among the saints to keep also the
     festival of the Sabbath. There remaineth therefore a Sabbatismus, that is a keeping of
     the Sabbath, to the people of God [Heb 4:9]" Homily on Numbers 23, par.4, in
     Migne, Patrologia Greaca, Vol. 12, cols.749,750.

In the 4th Century.

     "It was the practice generally of the Easterne Churches; and some churches of the
     west..For in the church of Millaine [Milan];.. it seemes the Saturday was held in farre
     esteeme ..Not that the Easterne churches, or any of the rest which observed that day,
     were inclined to Iudaisme [Judaism]; but that they came together on the Sabbath day,
     to worship Iesus [Jesus] Christ the Lord of the Sabbath." History of the Sabbath
     (original Spelling retained) Part 2, par. 5, pp. 73,74, London: 1636, Dr. Heylyn.

     "The ancient Christians were very careful in the observation of Saturday, or the seventh
     day..It is plain that all the Oriental churches, and the greatest part of the world,
     observed the Sabbath as a festival..Athanasius likewise tells us that they held religious
     assemblies on the Sabbath, not because they were infected with Judaism, but to
     worship Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath, Epiphanius says the same." Antiquities of the    Christian Church, Vol. II, Book XX, chap. 3, Sec. 1, 66.1137, 1138

     "From the apostles' time until the council of Laodicea, which was about the year 364,
     the holy observation of the Jew's Sabbath continued, as may be proved out of many
     authors: yea, notwithstanding the decree of the council against it. Sunday a Sabbath,
     John Ley, p.163 London 1640.

     "Ambrose, the celebrated bishop of Milan, said that when he was in Milan he observed
     Saturday, but when in Rome observed Sunday. This gave rise to the proverb 'When
     you are in Rome, do as Rome does,' " Heylyn, The History of the Sabbath, 1613

In the 5th Century.

     "Down even to the fifth century the observance of the Jewish Sabbath was continued in
     the Christian church." Ancient Christianity Exemplified, Lyman Coleman, Ch.26,
     sec. 2, p.527.

     "In Jerome's day (420 A.D.) the devoutest Christians did ordinary work on Sunday."
     Treatise of the Sabbath Day. by Dr. White, Lord Bishop of Ely, p.210.

     "For although almost all Churches throught the world celebrate the sacred mysteries
     [the Lord's Supper] on the Sabbath of every week, yet the Christians of Alexandria
     and at Rome, on account of some ancient tradition, refuse to do this." The footnote
     which accompanies the foregoing quotation explains the use of the word "Sabbath" It
     says : "That is, upon the Saturday. It should be observed, that Sunday is never called
     'the Sabbath' by the ancient Fathers and historians." Sacrates, Ecclesiastical History,
     Book 5, chap. 22, p. 289.

     

Offline LightHammer

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Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #72 on: January 02, 2012, 09:19:01 PM »
Quote
I don't see how anything I presented contradicts any of the valid authorities you cited.

They said the bible does not support the change at all.  You are saying it does.

Which of the authorities listed said that? I mean it's kind of irrelevant because I never claimed the Bible called for any switch anyway only that the Bible said we did not have to observe the seventh day.

Also I noticed you shotgunned a bunch of works. Some of them properly labeled some of them not so much. I'm curious where these sources come from and where they got their sources from? I only ask because none of them cite any of the ancient authors so I'm kind of curious.

I wouldn't expect to see any early Christian sources because we all know none of the support any Sabbath mandate but they didn't bother to cite any sources at all. I mean none. I half expected to see Josephous on the shotgun list but nope even the most prominent Jewish historian wasn't worth citing and he wrote much on the Early Church.

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Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #73 on: January 02, 2012, 09:20:47 PM »
>I think the reason why the church changed from saturday worship to sunday was to seperate themselves from the Jews, due to the Jews rejecting Jesus.

Nope.  About 135 when the Jews were revolting yet once again against the Romans, the Romans would attack on the Sabbath.  Since the Christians were also meeting on the Sabbath, they'd get killed, enslaved, etc. along with the Jews.  So, the Christians, primarily in Rome and Alexandria, took the expedient way out and changed their day of worship to the first day of the week and worship on that day along with the pagans.

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Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #74 on: January 02, 2012, 09:23:01 PM »
>he wrote much on the Early Church.

Then post the relevant portions.