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Author Topic: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...  (Read 11740 times)

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Amo

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Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #70 on: Mon Jan 02, 2012 - 21:57:42 »
Quote
I don't see how anything I presented contradicts any of the valid authorities you cited.

They said the bible does not support the change at all.  You are saying it does.

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Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #70 on: Mon Jan 02, 2012 - 21:57:42 »

Amo

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Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #71 on: Mon Jan 02, 2012 - 22:04:23 »
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I think the reason why the church changed from saturday worship to sunday was to seperate themselves from the Jews, due to the Jews rejecting Jesus.

But now that the Jews are beginning to accept Jesus, the church is also now accepting the sabbath day as the true day of worship, so that both Jew and gentile accept Jesus and accept sabbath day.

A little problematic, seeing that all the first "Christians" were Jews, who never gave up the Sabbath.  Nor did Christians themselves until a much later date.

In the 2nd Century

     "The primitive Christians did keep the Sabbath of the Jews;..therefore the Christians for
     a long time together, did keep their conventions on the Sabbath, in which some portion
     of the Law were read: and this continued till the time of the Laodicean council." The
     Whole Works of Jeremey Taylor, Vol. IX, p416 (R. Heber's Edition, Vol.XII, p.416)

     "The gentile Christians observed also the Sabbath." Gieseler's Church History, Vol.1,
     ch.2, par.30, p.93.

     "The primitive Christians had a great veneration for the Sabbath, and did spend the day
     in devotion and sermons. And it is not to be doubted but they derived this practice
     from the Apostles themselves, as appears by several scriptures to that purpose."
     Dialogues on the Lord's Day. p.189. London: 1701. By Dr. T. H. Morer.(church of
     England divine)

     "The Sabbath was a strong tie which united them with the life of the whole people, and
     by keeping the Sabbath holy they followed not only the example but the command of
     Jesus." Geschichte des Sonntags, pp.13,14.

     "It is certain that the ancient Sabbath did remain and was observed (together with the
     celebration of the Lord's day by the Christians of the East Church) three hundred years
     after the Saviour's death." A learned Treatise of the Sabbath, p.77.

In the 3rd Century.

     "The seventh-day Sabbath was.. solemnised by Christ, the Apostles, and primitive
     Christians, till the Laodicean Council did in a manner quite abolish the observation of
     it." Dissertation on the Lord's Day, pp.33,34,44.

     "As early as A.D.225 their existed large bishoprics or conferences of the church of the
     East (Sabbath-keeping) stretching from Palestine to India." Mingana, Early Spread of
     Christianity. Vol.10, p.460.

     "Thou shalt observe the Sabbath, on account of Him who ceased from His work of
     creation, but ceased not from His work of providence: it is a rest for meditation of the
     Law, not for idleness of the hands." The Anti-Nicene Fathers, Vol.7, p 413, From
     Constitutions of the Holy Apostles, A document of the 3rd and 4th centuries.

     "After the festival of the unceasing sacrifice [the crucifixion] is put the second festival of
     the Sabbath, and is fitting for whoever is righteous among the saints to keep also the
     festival of the Sabbath. There remaineth therefore a Sabbatismus, that is a keeping of
     the Sabbath, to the people of God [Heb 4:9]" Homily on Numbers 23, par.4, in
     Migne, Patrologia Greaca, Vol. 12, cols.749,750.

In the 4th Century.

     "It was the practice generally of the Easterne Churches; and some churches of the
     west..For in the church of Millaine [Milan];.. it seemes the Saturday was held in farre
     esteeme ..Not that the Easterne churches, or any of the rest which observed that day,
     were inclined to Iudaisme [Judaism]; but that they came together on the Sabbath day,
     to worship Iesus [Jesus] Christ the Lord of the Sabbath." History of the Sabbath
     (original Spelling retained) Part 2, par. 5, pp. 73,74, London: 1636, Dr. Heylyn.

     "The ancient Christians were very careful in the observation of Saturday, or the seventh
     day..It is plain that all the Oriental churches, and the greatest part of the world,
     observed the Sabbath as a festival..Athanasius likewise tells us that they held religious
     assemblies on the Sabbath, not because they were infected with Judaism, but to
     worship Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath, Epiphanius says the same." Antiquities of the    Christian Church, Vol. II, Book XX, chap. 3, Sec. 1, 66.1137, 1138

     "From the apostles' time until the council of Laodicea, which was about the year 364,
     the holy observation of the Jew's Sabbath continued, as may be proved out of many
     authors: yea, notwithstanding the decree of the council against it. Sunday a Sabbath,
     John Ley, p.163 London 1640.

     "Ambrose, the celebrated bishop of Milan, said that when he was in Milan he observed
     Saturday, but when in Rome observed Sunday. This gave rise to the proverb 'When
     you are in Rome, do as Rome does,' " Heylyn, The History of the Sabbath, 1613

In the 5th Century.

     "Down even to the fifth century the observance of the Jewish Sabbath was continued in
     the Christian church." Ancient Christianity Exemplified, Lyman Coleman, Ch.26,
     sec. 2, p.527.

     "In Jerome's day (420 A.D.) the devoutest Christians did ordinary work on Sunday."
     Treatise of the Sabbath Day. by Dr. White, Lord Bishop of Ely, p.210.

     "For although almost all Churches throught the world celebrate the sacred mysteries
     [the Lord's Supper] on the Sabbath of every week, yet the Christians of Alexandria
     and at Rome, on account of some ancient tradition, refuse to do this." The footnote
     which accompanies the foregoing quotation explains the use of the word "Sabbath" It
     says : "That is, upon the Saturday. It should be observed, that Sunday is never called
     'the Sabbath' by the ancient Fathers and historians." Sacrates, Ecclesiastical History,
     Book 5, chap. 22, p. 289.

     

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Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #71 on: Mon Jan 02, 2012 - 22:04:23 »

Offline LightHammer

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Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #72 on: Mon Jan 02, 2012 - 22:19:01 »
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I don't see how anything I presented contradicts any of the valid authorities you cited.

They said the bible does not support the change at all.  You are saying it does.

Which of the authorities listed said that? I mean it's kind of irrelevant because I never claimed the Bible called for any switch anyway only that the Bible said we did not have to observe the seventh day.

Also I noticed you shotgunned a bunch of works. Some of them properly labeled some of them not so much. I'm curious where these sources come from and where they got their sources from? I only ask because none of them cite any of the ancient authors so I'm kind of curious.

I wouldn't expect to see any early Christian sources because we all know none of the support any Sabbath mandate but they didn't bother to cite any sources at all. I mean none. I half expected to see Josephous on the shotgun list but nope even the most prominent Jewish historian wasn't worth citing and he wrote much on the Early Church.

Offline djconklin

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Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #73 on: Mon Jan 02, 2012 - 22:20:47 »
>I think the reason why the church changed from saturday worship to sunday was to seperate themselves from the Jews, due to the Jews rejecting Jesus.

Nope.  About 135 when the Jews were revolting yet once again against the Romans, the Romans would attack on the Sabbath.  Since the Christians were also meeting on the Sabbath, they'd get killed, enslaved, etc. along with the Jews.  So, the Christians, primarily in Rome and Alexandria, took the expedient way out and changed their day of worship to the first day of the week and worship on that day along with the pagans.

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Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #73 on: Mon Jan 02, 2012 - 22:20:47 »

Offline djconklin

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Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #74 on: Mon Jan 02, 2012 - 22:23:01 »
>he wrote much on the Early Church.

Then post the relevant portions.

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Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #74 on: Mon Jan 02, 2012 - 22:23:01 »



Offline LightHammer

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Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #75 on: Mon Jan 02, 2012 - 22:25:35 »
>I think the reason why the church changed from saturday worship to sunday was to seperate themselves from the Jews, due to the Jews rejecting Jesus.

Nope.  About 135 when the Jews were revolting yet once again against the Romans, the Romans would attack on the Sabbath.  Since the Christians were also meeting on the Sabbath, they'd get killed, enslaved, etc. along with the Jews.  So, the Christians, primarily in Rome and Alexandria, took the expedient way out and changed their day of worship to the first day of the week and worship on that day along with the pagans.

A black lie. I would recommend you seek absolution for such a dark revision of history but I know I'd be wasting my time.

Christians everywhere were gathering on both the Sabbath and the Lord's Day. They were doing so in the Bible and the earliest Christian codice the Didache attest to it.

I fear for how God's wrath will deal with liars. I'll pray for you.

Offline LightHammer

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Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #76 on: Mon Jan 02, 2012 - 22:31:36 »
>he wrote much on the Early Church.

Then post the relevant portions.

I wouldn't know where to start and I don't even know his records on this particular issue. I only know that he was the most renowned Jewish historian of his time. Most of the modern historians I read salute him as the second most prominent historian of Early Christianitu after Eusebius and right above Papias.

Note I never claimed Josephous supported or debunked anything only that reputable historians usually cite him on early Christian matters which shocked me to see all these isolated works presented as authoritative and not one citation from Josephous.

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Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #77 on: Tue Jan 03, 2012 - 05:29:07 »
>>Nope.  About 135 when the Jews were revolting yet once again against the Romans, the Romans would attack on the Sabbath.  Since the Christians were also meeting on the Sabbath, they'd get killed, enslaved, etc. along with the Jews.  So, the Christians, primarily in Rome and Alexandria, took the expedient way out and changed their day of worship to the first day of the week and worship on that day along with the pagans.

>A black lie.

See Dr. Bacchiocchi's dissertation.  He looked at the original records in the library while studying at the Papal University for which he was awarded a gold medal by the Pope.

>I would recommend you seek absolution for such a dark revision of history

Go wash your mouth out with soap for bearing false witness against your neighbor.

>They were doing so in the Bible and the earliest Christian codice the Didache attest to it.

There is no evidence within the Bible to that.

>I fear for how God's wrath will deal with liars. I'll pray for you.

He will--confess and repent.  But I know a leopard can't change his spots.

Offline djconklin

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Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #78 on: Tue Jan 03, 2012 - 05:32:00 »
>>>he wrote much on the Early Church.
>>Then post the relevant portions.
>I wouldn't know where to start and I don't even know his records on this particular issue.

Then you had no business making your claim.

>I only know that he was the most renowned Jewish historian of his time.

Irrelevant.  The only question that matters is did he write on this particular subject at hand?  If he did, then post it.  If he didn't, then you didn't have a point when you made the empty quip.

===

"The observance of the Seventh-day Sabbath by Polycarp would be in harmony with the teachings and practice of Jesus ( Gospel of Mark 2:27-28; Gospel of Luke 4:16), Paul ( Acts of the Apostles 13:14, 42-44; 16:13; 17:2; 18:4), and John, his mentor ( Book of Revelation 14:12; 12:17; 1 John 5:3 cf. Book of Exodus 20:8-11)."  from http://www.reference.com/browse/polycarp
« Last Edit: Tue Jan 03, 2012 - 05:45:42 by djconklin »

Offline DaveW

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Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #79 on: Tue Jan 03, 2012 - 05:49:45 »
Why would people want to gather on the day of final judgement?  (day of the Lord)

Lord's day = day of the Lord linguistically.
The resurrection is the most important aspect of Christ's ministry for those of us who stick to the traditions of the Early Church. So it's not hard to see why Christians bound Sunday as the day of assembly over Saturday.
I get that. But who said Sunday is the "Day of the Lord" which in scripture always refers to the day of final judgement? ? ? ?

Isa 13.6 Wail, for the day of the LORD is near; as destruction from the Almighty it will come!
7 Therefore all hands will be feeble, and every human heart will melt.
8 They will be dismayed: pangs and agony will seize them; they will be in anguish like a woman in labor. They will look aghast at one another;  their faces will be aflame.
9 Behold, the day of the LORD comes, cruel, with wrath and fierce anger, to make the land a desolation and to destroy its sinners from it.

Offline Hobie

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Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #80 on: Tue Jan 03, 2012 - 06:57:18 »
Well lets look at Samuele Bacchiocchi's book From Sabbath to Sunday: A Historical Investigation of the Rise of Sunday Observance in Early Christianity.

"...How did the change come about from Saturday to Sunday in early Christianity? To find an answer to this question I spent five years at the Pontifical University in Rome, investigating for my doctoral dissertation the earliest Christian documents. This short article represents a brief summary of my research.

Historically, the change from Sabbath to Sunday has been attributed to the ecclesiastical authority of the Roman Catholic church rather than to Biblical or apostolic precepts. Thomas Aquinas, for example, explicitly states that:
"the observance of the Lord's Day took the place of the observance of the Sabbath not by virtue of the [Biblical] precept but by the institution of the church." (1)
Recently, however, some scholars have argued that Sunday observance has a Biblical and apostolic origin. According to these scholars, from the inceptions of the Church the Apostles themselves chose the first day of the week in place of the seventh day in order to commemorate the resurrection of Christ. (2)
My own assessment of the sources is that this thesis is wrong on two counts. First, the change from Saturday to Sunday occurred sometime after 135 A.D. as a result of an interplay of political, social, pagan and religious factors to be mentioned below. Second, the change originated in Rome and not in Jerusalem. Before submitting the reasons for my conclusions, we shall briefly examine the alleged role of Christ, of the resurrection and of the Jerusalem church in the origin of Sunday.

Jesus and the Origin of Sunday
A popular view holds that Christ by his provocative method of Sabbath keeping-which caused considerable controversy with the religious leaders of His day-intended to pave the way for the abandonment of the Sabbath and the adoption of Sunday keeping instead. This view clearly distorts the intent of Christ's controversial Sabbath activities and teachings which were clearly designed not to nullify but to clarify the divine intent of the Fourth Commandment.

Christ never conceded to have broken the Sabbath commandment. On the contrary He defended Himself and His disciples from the charge of Sabbath breaking by appealing to the Scriptures: "Have you read . . ." (Matt 12:3-5). The intent of Christ's provocative Sabbath teachings and activities was not to pave the way for Sunday keeping, but rather to show the true meaning and function of the Sabbath, namely, a day "to do good" (Matt 12:8), "to save life" (Mark 3:4), to loose people from physical and spiritual bonds (Luke 13:16), and to show "mercy" rather than religiosity (Matt 12:7).

The Resurrection and the Origin of Sunday
Did the apostles introduce Sunday keeping instead of Sabbath keeping in order to commemorate Christ's resurrection by means of the Lord's Supper celebration? This view, though popular, is devoid of Biblical and historical support. The major reasons, briefly stated are the following.


No Command of Christ or of the Apostles
The New Testament never suggests or commands to celebrate Christ's resurrection by a weekly or annual Sunday celebration. This silence is noteworthy in view of the specific instructions given by Christ regarding such practices as baptism (Matt 28:19-20), the Lord's Supper (Mark 14:24-25; 1 Cor 11:23-26) and foot-washing (John 13:14-15).
If Jesus wanted the day of his resurrection to be observed as a day of rest and worship, would He not told the women and the disciples when He rose: "Come apart and celebrate My Resurrection?" Instead He told the women "Go and tell my brethren to go to Galilee" (Matt 28:10) and to the disciples "Go . . . make disciples . . . baptizing them" (Matt 28:19).None of the utterances of the risen Savior reveal an intent to memorialize His resurrection by making Sunday the new day of rest and worship.


No Designation of Sunday as Day of the Resurrection
Sunday is never called in the New Testament as "Day of the Resurrection." It is consistently called "First day of the week." The references to Sunday as day of the resurrection first appear in the early part of the fourth century. (3) By that time Sunday had become associated with the resurrection....."

"....The Earliest Reference to Sunday
The earliest explicit references to Sunday keeping are found in the writings of Barnabas (about 135 A.D.) and Justin Martyr (about 150 A.D.). Both writers do mention the resurrection as a basis for Sunday observance but only as the second of two reasons, important but not predominant. Barnabas' first theological motivation for Sunday keeping is eschatological, namely, that Sunday as "the eight day" represents "the beginning of another world." (4) Justin's first reason for the Christians' Sunday assembly is the inauguration of creation: "because it is the first day on which God, transforming the darkness and prime matter, created the world." (5)
The above indications suffice to discredit the claim that Christ's resurrection on the first day of the week caused the abandonment of the Sabbath and the adoption of Sunday. The truth is that initially the resurrection was celebrated existentially rather than liturgically, that is, by a victorious way of life rather than by a special day of worship....."

".....The attachment of the Jerusalem Church to the Mosaic Law is reflected in some of the decisions of the first Jerusalem Council held about 49-50 A.D. (See Acts 15). The exemption from circumcision is there granted only "to brethren who are of the Gentiles" (Acts 15:23). No concession is made for Jewish-Christians, who must continue to circumcise their children. Moreover, of the four provisions made applicable by the Jerusalem Council to Gentiles, one is moral (abstention from "unchastity") but three are ceremonial (even Gentile Christians are ordered to abstain "from contact with idols and from [eating] what has been strangled and from [eating] blood" (Acts 15:20). This concern of the Jerusalem Council for ritual defilement and Jewish food laws reflects its continued attachment to Jewish ceremonial law and its commands. It would be unthinkable that this Church at this early time would change the Sabbath to Sunday.
James' statement at the Jerusalem Council in support of his proposal to exempt Gentiles from circumcision but not from Mosaic laws in general, is also significant: "For generations past Moses has had spokesmen in every city; he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues" (Acts 15:21). All interpreters recognize that both in his proposal and in its justification, James reaffirms the binding nature of the Mosaic Law which was customarily taught every Sabbath in the synagogue.


Paul's Last Visit
Further insight is provided by Paul's last visit to Jerusalem. The Apostle was informed by James and the elders that thousand of converted Jews were "all zealous for the Law" (Acts 21:20). The same leaders then pressured Paul to prove to the people that he also "lived in observance of the law" (Acts 21-24), by undergoing a rite of purification at the Temple. In the light of this deep commitment to the observance of the Law, it is hardly conceivable that the Jerusalem Church would have abrogated one of its chief precepts-Sabbath keeping-and pioneered Sunday worship instead.


Did Sunday Originate After 70 A.D.?
The foregoing evidences has led some scholars to argue for the Palestinian origin of Sunday observance at a slightly later time, namely, after the Roman destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D. (8) They presume that the flight of the Christians from Jerusalem to Pella as well as the psychological impact of the destruction of the Temple weaned Palestinian Christians away from Jewish observances such as Sabbath keeping.
This assumption is discredited by both Eusebius and Epiphanius who inform us that the Jerusalem Church after 70 A.D. and until Hadrian's siege of Jerusalem in 135 A.D., was composed of and administered by converted Jews, characterized as "zealous to insist on the literal observance of the Law." (9) The orthodox Palestinian Jewish-Christian sect of the Nazarenes, who most scholars regard as "the very direct descendants of the primitive community" (10) of Jerusalem, retained Sabbath keeping on Saturday until the fourth century. Indeed, seventh-day Sabbath keeping was regarded as one of this Church's distinguishing characteristics. (11) This implies that Sabbath observance was not only the traditional custom of the Jerusalem Church, but also of Palestinian Jewish-Christians long after 70 A.D.
Of all the Christian Churches, the Jerusalem Church was both ethnically and theologically the closest and most loyal to Jewish religious traditions, and thus the least likely to change the day of the Sabbath....."

Offline DaveW

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Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #81 on: Tue Jan 03, 2012 - 08:04:53 »
I have a problem with anyone who calls the area of Judea "palestine" prior to 135 ad. (Bar Kochba revolt)

I have never read Bacchiocchi's book but I know it has gotten a lot of following in the Messianic movement.

From our own research (modern Messianism attempting to be a recreation of the Nazoreans) we know that the Nazoreans died out in the early 400s due to being cut off theologically from both the gentile church (for being too Jewish) and from Rabbinic Judaism (for being too christian). So his date of them maintaining Saturday into the 4th century is fairly accurate. But the fact that some (including the Nazoreans) used Sunday (defined as sundown Saturday evening) goes back to the Acts.  This was a celebration called Havdalah (seperation) which welcomes the new week.  Since it was also the celebration of Messiah rising on the first day of the week, it was appropriate. 

I do not understand why he says that the idea that the resurrection was on the first day of the week was a product of the 4th century since that fact is mentioned in the gospels.

Offline LightHammer

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Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #82 on: Tue Jan 03, 2012 - 13:47:09 »
>>Nope.  About 135 when the Jews were revolting yet once again against the Romans, the Romans would attack on the Sabbath.  Since the Christians were also meeting on the Sabbath, they'd get killed, enslaved, etc. along with the Jews.  So, the Christians, primarily in Rome and Alexandria, took the expedient way out and changed their day of worship to the first day of the week and worship on that day along with the pagans.

>A black lie.

See Dr. Bacchiocchi's dissertation.  He looked at the original records in the library while studying at the Papal University for which he was awarded a gold medal by the Pope.

>I would recommend you seek absolution for such a dark revision of history

Go wash your mouth out with soap for bearing false witness against your neighbor.

>They were doing so in the Bible and the earliest Christian codice the Didache attest to it.

There is no evidence within the Bible to that.

>I fear for how God's wrath will deal with liars. I'll pray for you.

He will--confess and repent.  But I know a leopard can't change his spots.


1. Present the material or don't mention the author didn't you put it something like that? More hypocrisy.

2. No need to wash my mouth out this time. You lied intentionally or unintentionally it makes no difference. The Bible holds Christians gathering and breaking bread on the first day. The Didache which is a first century Christian codice instructs us to gather on the Lord's Day. St. Ignatius who had no fear of Roman oppression instructs his flock in Antioch to keep the Lord's Day and he did en route to being eaten alive by lions.

Your entire claim is false.

3. Please come on now. Acts 20:7, 1 Corinthians 6:2


Offline LightHammer

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Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #83 on: Tue Jan 03, 2012 - 14:18:15 »
>>>he wrote much on the Early Church.
>>Then post the relevant portions.
>I wouldn't know where to start and I don't even know his records on this particular issue.

Then you had no business making your claim.

>I only know that he was the most renowned Jewish historian of his time.

Irrelevant.  The only question that matters is did he write on this particular subject at hand?  If he did, then post it.  If he didn't, then you didn't have a point when you made the empty quip.

===

"The observance of the Seventh-day Sabbath by Polycarp would be in harmony with the teachings and practice of Jesus ( Gospel of Mark 2:27-28; Gospel of Luke 4:16), Paul ( Acts of the Apostles 13:14, 42-44; 16:13; 17:2; 18:4), and John, his mentor ( Book of Revelation 14:12; 12:17; 1 John 5:3 cf. Book of Exodus 20:8-11)."  from http://www.reference.com/browse/polycarp


1. No it's not irrelevant and it only proves to reveal your ignorance of Josephous. He's far more relevant than your website excerpt.

2. I see you didn't even quote St. Polycarp which is kind of strange seeing how he is one of the few ECF's who didn't write a wide collection of works. If you're not going to post the relevant quotes don't mention the author.

Offline djconklin

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Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #84 on: Tue Jan 03, 2012 - 14:23:31 »
>1. Present the material or don't mention the author didn't you put it something like that? More hypocrisy.

The diff is that I can back up what I say.  You called the truth/fact a lie and still haven't provided your support.  How's that for a lie?

See http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/books/sabbath_to_sunday/6.html

>You lied intentionally or unintentionally it makes no difference.

Claiming that someone lied without proving is yet another lie.

>The Bible holds Christians gathering and breaking bread on the first day.

Again, as I told you before, it does not.

>The Didache which is a first century Christian codice instructs us to gather on the Lord's Day.

Late first century at best--after the time frame I mentioned--and even it says nothing about Sunday.

14:1 reads "Κατα κυριακὴν δε κυριου"  which means "According to the Lord's way, even the Lord's" or "According to the Lordly {way}, even the Lord's." (from http://www.cogwriter.com/ignatius.htm)

>Ignatius ... instructs his flock in Antioch to keep the Lord's Day

He said nothing about the Lord's day.  See http://www.cogwriter.com/ignatius.htm.

>Please come on now. Acts 20:7, 1 Corinthians 6:2

Whenever a critic cites Bible text like this, but doesn't show you that text, that is your hint that you are being played.

(NIV?) Acts 20:7 On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul began talking to them, intending to leave the next day, and he prolonged his message until midnight. 8 There were many lamps in the upper room where we were gathered together. 9 And there was a young man named Eutychus sitting on the window sill, sinking into a deep sleep; and as Paul kept on talking, he was overcome by sleep and fell down from the third floor and was picked up dead. 10 But Paul went down and fell upon him, and after embracing him, he said, “Do not be troubled, for his life is in him.
« Last Edit: Tue Jan 03, 2012 - 16:12:20 by djconklin »

Offline LightHammer

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Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #85 on: Tue Jan 03, 2012 - 15:00:59 »
>1. Present the material or don't mention the author didn't you put it something like that? More hypocrisy.

The diff is that I can back up what I say.  You called the truth/fact a lie and still haven't provided your support.  How's that for a lie?

See http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/books/sabbath_to_sunday/6.html

>You lied intentionally or unintentionally it makes no difference.

Claiming that someone lied without proving is yet another lie.

>The Bible holds Christians gathering and breaking bread on the first day.

Again, as I told you before, it does not.

>The Didache which is a first century Christian codice instructs us to gather on the Lord's Day.

Late first century at best--after the time frame I mentioned--and even it says nothing about Sunday.

14:1 reads "Κατα κυριακὴν δε κυριου"  which means "According to the Lord's way, even the Lord's" or "According to the Lordly {way}, even the Lord's." (from http://www.cogwriter.com/ignatius.htm)

>Ignatius ... instructs his flock in Antioch to keep the Lord's Day

He said nothing about the Lord's day.  See http://www.cogwriter.com/ignatius.htm.

>Please come on now. Acts 20:7, 1 Corinthians 6:2

Whenever a critic cites Bible text like this, but doesn't show you that text, that is your hint that you are being played.

(NIV?) Acts 20:7 On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul began talking to them, intending to leave the next day, and he prolonged his message until midnight. 8 There were many lamps in the upper room where we were gathered together. 9 And there was a young man named Eutychus sitting on the window sill, sinking into a deep sleep; and as Paul kept on talking, he was overcome by sleep and fell down from the third floor and was picked up dead. 10 But Paul went down and fell upon him, and after embracing him, he said, “Do not be troubled, for his life is in him.

Offline Beta

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Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #86 on: Tue Jan 03, 2012 - 15:31:47 »

I do not understand why he says that the idea that the resurrection was on the first day of the week was a product of the 4th century since that fact is mentioned in the gospels.

May I draw your attention to Mk.16 ; early the first day of the week the women came to the sepulchre, the stone was already rolled away. In the tomb was a young man in white garment saying : you seek Jesus v6, he is risen, he is not here...
can we honestly conclude it saying that Jesus had risen on sunday morning ?
The only fact we have is that He was no longer there . According to what we are told here we don't know when He rose from the dead...it is simply ASSUMING Jesus rose on sunday and the whole world has believed this idea.
But there are scriptures telling us the truth....not least from Jesus' own mouth...if people would believe Him.

Offline LightHammer

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Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #87 on: Tue Jan 03, 2012 - 15:39:12 »

I do not understand why he says that the idea that the resurrection was on the first day of the week was a product of the 4th century since that fact is mentioned in the gospels.

May I draw your attention to Mk.16 ; early the first day of the week the women came to the sepulchre, the stone was already rolled away. In the tomb was a young man in white garment saying : you seek Jesus v6, he is risen, he is not here...
can we honestly conclude it saying that Jesus had risen on sunday morning ?
The only fact we have is that He was no longer there . According to what we are told here we don't know when He rose from the dead...it is simply ASSUMING Jesus rose on sunday and the whole world has believed this idea.
But there are scriptures telling us the truth....not least from Jesus' own mouth...if people would believe Him.

Nope there's no question that Christ rise in the first day.


Mark 16:9
Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.
Mark 16:8-10 (in Context) Mark 16 (Whole Chapter)


Nice try though.

Offline djconklin

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Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #88 on: Tue Jan 03, 2012 - 16:33:45 »
>1. I didn't just call your lies lies. I named several sources you could differ to for verification

Anyone can list sources.  You showed no actual quotes--which the web pages I directed you to do.

>Your first web link doesn't even work at least not for me.

Fixed it--the 'h' in 'http' got clipped!

>3. I provided the verse.

I showed what the verse actually said.  I've met a lot of critics who point to a Bible verse, but can't/won't show the actual verse, because it doesn't say what they said it said.

>4. I see you haven't read the Didache

Liar. I showed you what it said: "14:1 reads "Κατα κυριακὴν δε κυριου"".

There is no Greek support for the word "day" in the verse.

>This Church of God minister is wrong. Your website is biased. If anyone checks it out they will. The Greek language doesn't even work like that.

Love the proof for the claims.  Of course, it is impossible that you are wrong.

>The Greek word for " way" isn't even similar to the Greek word for "day".

No kidding Sherlock.

>Look it up. You've been dubbed.

Why?  Can't you post the proof?  Afraid of it?

>5. Nobody's being played I just can't copy and paste everything from my IPhone.

Like we've got proof for that.

>A) So we're supposed to just take you at your word that first day means Saturday night? Alrighty then because you have such an impressive track record.

Better track record than yours, liar.

See #3, #9 at http://ncbible.org/resources/ActsComm10.html for one example of Luke's use of Jewish time reckoning.

Conybeare and Howson comment: “It was the evening which succeeded the Jewish Sabbath. On the Sunday morning the vessel was about to sail

Offline Beta

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Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #89 on: Wed Jan 04, 2012 - 04:39:45 »

I do not understand why he says that the idea that the resurrection was on the first day of the week was a product of the 4th century since that fact is mentioned in the gospels.

May I draw your attention to Mk.16 ; early the first day of the week the women came to the sepulchre, the stone was already rolled away. In the tomb was a young man in white garment saying : you seek Jesus v6, he is risen, he is not here...
can we honestly conclude it saying that Jesus had risen on sunday morning ?
The only fact we have is that He was no longer there . According to what we are told here we don't know when He rose from the dead...it is simply ASSUMING Jesus rose on sunday and the whole world has believed this idea.
But there are scriptures telling us the truth....not least from Jesus' own mouth...if people would believe Him.

Nope there's no question that Christ rise in the first day.


Mark 16:9
Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.
Mark 16:8-10 (in Context) Mark 16 (Whole Chapter)


Nice try though.


It's more than a 'nice try...we are not playing a game !
 'WAS risen' more than implies 'past tense since Jesus was no longer there and  especially when connected to all other scriptures relating to the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. He never leaves Himself without witness.

Traditional Christians need a 'sunday-resurrection or their whole 'sunday-worship would collapse .

Offline DaveW

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Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #90 on: Wed Jan 04, 2012 - 05:15:24 »
If you note from the other synoptic gospels you find that the women arrived at the tomb (now empty) at dawn.  HE was already risen. Please also note there were no guards when they arrived. (otherwise they would have not gotten close to the tomb) Roman guards stood in 3 8-hour watches, and since it was recorded that they went to the temple priests who paid them to lie that the body was stolen.

So the women got there probably around 5 - 6 am and the guards were gone meaning that the resurrection could have occured no earlier than 9 pm Saturday evening (which in Jewish timekeeping is the First Day).  The fact that both Jewish and Gentile Messianic believers seem to have made a big deal of the Havdala service (starts at sundown Saturday evening - beginning of the First Day) would make sense if the resurrection occured on saturday evening.

Not proof but evidence pointing to that scenario.

Offline Beta

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Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #91 on: Thu Jan 05, 2012 - 08:00:46 »
If you note from the other synoptic gospels you find that the women arrived at the tomb (now empty) at dawn.  HE was already risen. Please also note there were no guards when they arrived. (otherwise they would have not gotten close to the tomb) Roman guards stood in 3 8-hour watches, and since it was recorded that they went to the temple priests who paid them to lie that the body was stolen.

So the women got there probably around 5 - 6 am and the guards were gone meaning that the resurrection could have occured no earlier than 9 pm Saturday evening (which in Jewish timekeeping is the First Day).  The fact that both Jewish and Gentile Messianic believers seem to have made a big deal of the Havdala service (starts at sundown Saturday evening - beginning of the First Day) would make sense if the resurrection occured on saturday evening.

Not proof but evidence pointing to that scenario.
You are right ..there were no eye-witnessess...all we have is scripture 1Cor.15v3,4.
First we have Jesus' own sign/prediction Mat.12v38,40 of 3 days and 3 nights. Here people go mad saying it could mean anything , a portion of a day , a few minutes, a few hours ...whatever fits your own understanding. But Jesus explains in Joh.11v9,10 that there are 12 hours in each period making it 72 hours in all. Since we are talking about "biblical evidence" we must take the bible serious...and not insert human ideas.
We know from scripture Jesus was put into the tomb just before sunset on the day of 'preparation which was before the beginning of the 'High day/Sabbath  mentioned in Joh.19v14,31. IF you take this to be a Friday and count 72 hours then the resurrection would have been on monday sunset.
But the last sunset before sunday morning when the women arrived at the empty tomb was on the Sabbath , the weekly Sabbath ....no matter what time the women arrived sunday....Jesus was risen and not there.
So because He was 'discovered' risen on sunday people "assume" he rose on sunday (careless or deliberate false reasoning and a great opportunity to deceive). but all this points to is the arrival of the women at that time...it is not saying Jesus rose at that time. To God this means a difference but maybe not to ignorant man.

Offline DaveW

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Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #92 on: Thu Jan 05, 2012 - 09:58:16 »
Quote
IF you take this to be a Friday ...
No I do not hold to a "good friday" crucifiction.  

IMO that idea came about due to a lack of understanding that the first day of Passover/Unleavened bread is ALSO a Sabbath no matter what day of the week it happens on, and the fact that some held a seder Passover meal the evening BEFORE the actual start of passover.

I lean more toward a Wednesday crucifiction, being the day of preparation (when the lambs were being slaughtered for that evening's seder meals) with Thursday being a Sabbath and day 1 in the grave - sundown to sundown, Friday is day 2 in the grave and then day 3 being Saturday - the weekly sabbath and he resurrects just after sundown giving a full 3 days and nights in the grave and him resurrecting on Yom HaBikkurim (first fruits) according to the Sadducean calendar. (the Pharasees would have had the previous Friday as Yom HaBikkurim) It is also interesting to note that Luke says in Acts 2 "when the day of Shavuot/Pentecost had FULLY come..." alluding to the difference in the 2 ways of figuring.  That would have put it on the Sadducean time table.
« Last Edit: Thu Jan 05, 2012 - 10:06:52 by DaveW »

Offline Michael G

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Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #93 on: Thu Jan 05, 2012 - 14:10:16 »
Quote
IF you take this to be a Friday ...
No I do not hold to a "good friday" crucifiction.  

IMO that idea came about due to a lack of understanding that the first day of Passover/Unleavened bread is ALSO a Sabbath no matter what day of the week it happens on, and the fact that some held a seder Passover meal the evening BEFORE the actual start of passover.

I lean more toward a Wednesday crucifiction, being the day of preparation (when the lambs were being slaughtered for that evening's seder meals) with Thursday being a Sabbath and day 1 in the grave - sundown to sundown, Friday is day 2 in the grave and then day 3 being Saturday - the weekly sabbath and he resurrects just after sundown giving a full 3 days and nights in the grave and him resurrecting on Yom HaBikkurim (first fruits) according to the Sadducean calendar. (the Pharasees would have had the previous Friday as Yom HaBikkurim) It is also interesting to note that Luke says in Acts 2 "when the day of Shavuot/Pentecost had FULLY come..." alluding to the difference in the 2 ways of figuring.  That would have put it on the Sadducean time table.

Simple math , the Bible confirms Jesus rose on the first day of the week, no doubt in that,  
When Jesus  met with his disciples on the first day being Sunday,
 he said in Luke 24  this is the third day since those things happened and that day is confirmed in scripture as Sunday the first day of the week.  and the things he said for them to remember  throughout scripture were ;

Be BETRAYED
DELIVERED into the Hands of Sinners to the GENTILES
rejected by his own,
Mocked, spit on. SCOURGED,
CONDEMNED to death
Put to death CRUCIFIED,
be in the TOMB
be raised the ““THIRD DAY
« Last Edit: Thu Jan 05, 2012 - 14:16:51 by Michael G »

Offline Michael G

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Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #94 on: Thu Jan 05, 2012 - 14:23:15 »
Quote
IF you take this to be a Friday ...
No I do not hold to a "good friday" crucifiction.  


the theology of wed crucifixion ruins many scriptures in the bible and puts doubt in the mind whether Jesus did in fact rise on the third day  as scripture say, 
for what may I ask? 


See Luke 24

The disciples said;

"TODAY IS THE ““THIRD DAY

Offline Beta

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Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #95 on: Thu Jan 05, 2012 - 15:49:15 »
Quote
IF you take this to be a Friday ...
No I do not hold to a "good friday" crucifiction. 

IMO that idea came about due to a lack of understanding that the first day of Passover/Unleavened bread is ALSO a Sabbath no matter what day of the week it happens on, and the fact that some held a seder Passover meal the evening BEFORE the actual start of passover.

I lean more toward a Wednesday crucifiction, being the day of preparation (when the lambs were being slaughtered for that evening's seder meals) with Thursday being a Sabbath and day 1 in the grave - sundown to sundown, Friday is day 2 in the grave and then day 3 being Saturday - the weekly sabbath and he resurrects just after sundown giving a full 3 days and nights in the grave and him resurrecting on Yom HaBikkurim (first fruits) according to the Sadducean calendar. (the Pharasees would have had the previous Friday as Yom HaBikkurim) It is also interesting to note that Luke says in Acts 2 "when the day of Shavuot/Pentecost had FULLY come..." alluding to the difference in the 2 ways of figuring.  That would have put it on the Sadducean time table.

Agree with you on the wednesday crucifixion.....so being buried just before sunset on that day he also rose just before sunset exactly 3 day times and 3 night times later thus perfectly fulfilling his own prediction. His time in the tomb had 'fully come' by Sabbath sunset. He did not have to stay over into sunday not even for a minute.
There is much talk of what constitutes '3 days' all of it pointing to human reasoning. People can make anything of 'time' they want to but scripture can not be broken. Jesus Himself is TRUTH and one would think HE knows what HE is talking about when it comes to scripture Joh.11v9,10. We are told everything happened according to scripture 1Cor.15v3,4. IT IS EVIDENCE !!!
The sunday Jesus is not the Sabbath Jesus. We also know that from scripture.
Jesus is LORD of the SABBATH !!!

Offline djconklin

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Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #96 on: Thu Jan 05, 2012 - 18:48:00 »
>so being buried just before sunset on that day he also rose just before sunset exactly 3 day times and 3 night times later thus perfectly fulfilling his own prediction.

Not exactly.  Our Wednesday nite, Thursday nite, Friday nite, Saturday nite.  That's four, not three.

In Jewish think "a part of an onah (day) is an onah."  So, if we use hours as the lowest level we count, Jesus only had to be in the Tomb for 26 hours.

==

Off-topic: my computer had been infected with a Trojan virus and I just got it up and working--that's why I haven't been here in awhile.  Now I'm off to see where it came from!

Offline Michael G

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Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #97 on: Thu Jan 05, 2012 - 21:09:09 »

 Here is an example of simple Logic of what Jesus said to his disciples: 
 
Let’s say I was your Boss and a very busy person, let’s say I called you and left a message on your answering machine. Here is the message on your answering machine; 

"Hi Beta this is your Boss Michael, today is Friday the 1st day of the month at 2pm, I will be arriving at the airport at sunrise on the 3rd day, please be there to meet with me, I have some very important things I would like to discuss with you before I go to see my ailing father. Beta I will not be able to answer my phone after 3pm until the time I see you at the airport, thank you Beta for being a reliable servant,  till I see you" end of message;

Now Beta,  you arrive home and get the message at 4pm the same day and you can no longer reach me by phone.  What day and time would you be at the airport to meet with me? 

 Hint; it would not be Monday because Monday would be the 4th day on the calendar,

I hope you marked your Calendar and understand Beta, because if you’re not at the airport to meet with me on Sunday, I might think you’re not a very dependable employee and may not trust you to take over my duties while I am gone, and I may even fire you on Monday depending on why you were not there to meet with me.
 
Throughout the NT Gospel scriptures Jesus kept mentioning to his disciples that he would die and suffer on a day and he would arise and meet with them on the “THIRD DAY
« Last Edit: Sat Jan 07, 2012 - 08:28:38 by Michael G »

Offline Michael G

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Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #98 on: Thu Jan 05, 2012 - 21:48:22 »
So if we all agree it was Nissan 14 at 3PM when Jesus Died as the Passover Lamb, and that would be 1st day of the 3 day event of the suffering and death of the Lamb of God and we agree with the testimony in Luke 24 at Emmaus, we must also agree that it was  SUNDAY the 1st day of the week when Jesus met with them, and we must also agree with the testimony given at Emmaus that the event closed on the 3rd day which must have been Nissan 16,.

Therefore without doubt one must conclude by the witnesses in the bible the 3 day event began on Nissan 14 and ended on the 3rd day Nissan 16, which was no doubt Sunday the first day of the week of the Calendar.

 if one concludes that it was Sunday Jesus arose and met with his disciples they must also agree that the first day of the 3 day event was Friday.
 

No way could it be Wednesday


Offline Beta

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Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #99 on: Fri Jan 06, 2012 - 00:29:23 »
>so being buried just before sunset on that day he also rose just before sunset exactly 3 day times and 3 night times later thus perfectly fulfilling his own prediction.

Not exactly.  Our Wednesday nite, Thursday nite, Friday nite, Saturday nite.  That's four, not three.

In Jewish think "a part of an onah (day) is an onah."  So, if we use hours as the lowest level we count, Jesus only had to be in the Tomb for 26 hours.

==

Off-topic: my computer had been infected with a Trojan virus and I just got it up and working--that's why I haven't been here in awhile.  Now I'm off to see where it came from!

well here we go again.
as already stated several times everything about this topic was according to scripture 1Cor.15v3,4 so why are you going back to HUMAN reasoning ? Jesus already explained the exact timing of day and night Joh.11v9,10.
Since we are directed to scripture let us respect it above that of human opinions. How can scripture be used as evidence if you are going to overrule it ? ? ?
(perhaps you have not followed the thread but it is annoying when one has to constantly repeat oneself and scripture, sorry  ::smile::)

Offline Beta

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Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #100 on: Fri Jan 06, 2012 - 00:44:42 »
So if we all agree it was Nissan 14 at 3PM when Jesus Died as the Passover Lamb, and that would be 1st day of the 3 day event of the suffering and death of the Lamb of God and we agree with the testimony in Luke 24 at Emmaus, we must also agree that it was  SUNDAY the 1st day of the week when Jesus met with them, and we must also agree with the testimony given at Emmaus that the event closed on the 3rd day which must have been Nissan 16,.

Therefore without doubt one must conclude by the witnesses in the bible the 3 day event began on Nissan 14 and ended on the 3rd day Nissan 16, which was no doubt Sunday the first day of the week of the Calendar.

 if one concludes that it was Sunday Jesus arose and met with his disciples they must also agree that the first day of the 3 day event was Friday.
 
No way could it be Wednesday

plenty of human reasoning but not one scripture from beginning to end.
and even if you had it would not refer to "Jesus' own sign and prediction" which is much more accurate than any casual remark or human opinion about the 3rd day.. which is rather vague and can mean anything you want it to mean.
Is all I'm saying.  ::headscratch::

Offline Michael G

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Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #101 on: Fri Jan 06, 2012 - 00:50:38 »
this is three day event Jesus was teaching his Disciples


Mat_16:21  From that TIME Jesus BEGAN to SHOW to His DISCIPLES (THE THREE DAY EVENT) that He must go to Jerusalem, and SUFFER many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and BE KILLED, and BE RAISED the “THIRD DAY
« Last Edit: Fri Jan 06, 2012 - 01:07:23 by Michael G »

Offline Michael G

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Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #102 on: Fri Jan 06, 2012 - 01:05:05 »


plenty of human reasoning but not one scripture from beginning to end.
and even if you had it would not refer to "Jesus' own sign and prediction" which is much more accurate than any casual remark or human opinion about the 3rd day.. which is rather vague and can mean anything you want it to mean.
Is all I'm saying.  ::headscratch::

And here it is the THIRD DAY since those things happened and the testimony
Luk 24:1  Now on the FIRST DAY of the WEEK, very EARLY in the MORNING, they, and certain other women with them, came to the tomb bringing the spices which they had prepared.
Luk 24:2  But they found the stone rolled away from the tomb.
Luk 24:3  Then they went in and DID NOT FIND the body of the Lord Jesus.

Luk_24:7  Jesus saying, 'The Son of Man MUST BE DELIVERED into the hands of sinful men, and BE CRUCIFIED, and the “THIRD DAY
« Last Edit: Fri Jan 06, 2012 - 01:28:46 by Michael G »

Offline Beta

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Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #103 on: Fri Jan 06, 2012 - 01:41:36 »
this is three day event Jesus was teaching his Disciples


Mat_16:21  From that TIME Jesus BEGAN to SHOW to His DISCIPLES (THE THREE DAY EVENT) that He must go to Jerusalem, and SUFFER many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and BE KILLED, and BE RAISED the “THIRD DAY

Offline Beta

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Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #104 on: Fri Jan 06, 2012 - 02:03:18 »
May I just add that if Jesus died and was buried very close to sunset on friday....when would the women have bought and prepared spices if they rested on the (weekly) sabbath as per commandment ? Lk.23v49-56.
There simply was no time for such activity before the High day Joh.19v14,31 since even Josef of Arimethea and Nicodemus had to rush burial before sunset with Jesus wrapped in whole spices as there was no time to prepare them even though they were to hand. The women did not have any at that time. They bought and prepared them on the  friday and then rested on the weekly sabbath before going to the sepulchre early sunday.
As scripture says the day after the preparation of the Passover was a 'HIGH day which can also be called a Sabbath (one of the annual 7 ) In fact there were 2 Sabbaths in that week with 2 preparation days.