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Author Topic: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...  (Read 10145 times)

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Offline LightHammer

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Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #75 on: January 02, 2012, 09:25:35 PM »
>I think the reason why the church changed from saturday worship to sunday was to seperate themselves from the Jews, due to the Jews rejecting Jesus.

Nope.  About 135 when the Jews were revolting yet once again against the Romans, the Romans would attack on the Sabbath.  Since the Christians were also meeting on the Sabbath, they'd get killed, enslaved, etc. along with the Jews.  So, the Christians, primarily in Rome and Alexandria, took the expedient way out and changed their day of worship to the first day of the week and worship on that day along with the pagans.

A black lie. I would recommend you seek absolution for such a dark revision of history but I know I'd be wasting my time.

Christians everywhere were gathering on both the Sabbath and the Lord's Day. They were doing so in the Bible and the earliest Christian codice the Didache attest to it.

I fear for how God's wrath will deal with liars. I'll pray for you.
"For they needs must seek some support,  since they have fallen from the foundation of the Apostles and have no settled mind of their own, and if they can find none, then they malign the fathers. But no one will believe them any more even if they make efforts to libel them, for their heresy is condemned on all hands." St. Athanasius of Alexandria

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Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #75 on: January 02, 2012, 09:25:35 PM »

Offline LightHammer

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Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #76 on: January 02, 2012, 09:31:36 PM »
>he wrote much on the Early Church.

Then post the relevant portions.

I wouldn't know where to start and I don't even know his records on this particular issue. I only know that he was the most renowned Jewish historian of his time. Most of the modern historians I read salute him as the second most prominent historian of Early Christianitu after Eusebius and right above Papias.

Note I never claimed Josephous supported or debunked anything only that reputable historians usually cite him on early Christian matters which shocked me to see all these isolated works presented as authoritative and not one citation from Josephous.
"For they needs must seek some support,  since they have fallen from the foundation of the Apostles and have no settled mind of their own, and if they can find none, then they malign the fathers. But no one will believe them any more even if they make efforts to libel them, for their heresy is condemned on all hands." St. Athanasius of Alexandria

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Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #76 on: January 02, 2012, 09:31:36 PM »

Offline djconklin

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Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #77 on: January 03, 2012, 04:29:07 AM »
>>Nope.  About 135 when the Jews were revolting yet once again against the Romans, the Romans would attack on the Sabbath.  Since the Christians were also meeting on the Sabbath, they'd get killed, enslaved, etc. along with the Jews.  So, the Christians, primarily in Rome and Alexandria, took the expedient way out and changed their day of worship to the first day of the week and worship on that day along with the pagans.

>A black lie.

See Dr. Bacchiocchi's dissertation.  He looked at the original records in the library while studying at the Papal University for which he was awarded a gold medal by the Pope.

>I would recommend you seek absolution for such a dark revision of history

Go wash your mouth out with soap for bearing false witness against your neighbor.

>They were doing so in the Bible and the earliest Christian codice the Didache attest to it.

There is no evidence within the Bible to that.

>I fear for how God's wrath will deal with liars. I'll pray for you.

He will--confess and repent.  But I know a leopard can't change his spots.
"Analyzing Alleged Plagiarism in Nineteenth-Century Literature: A Case Study of Ellen G. White’s The Desire of Ages," by David J. Conklin, Jerry Moon, and Kevin Morgan Plagiary 2008 3(5): 1-29.

That study compared 47 authors with each other.  I now have 225 in the study.  The critics have yet to do even two authors.  That would require work; it is much easier to tell a lie.
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Offline djconklin

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Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #78 on: January 03, 2012, 04:32:00 AM »
>>>he wrote much on the Early Church.
>>Then post the relevant portions.
>I wouldn't know where to start and I don't even know his records on this particular issue.

Then you had no business making your claim.

>I only know that he was the most renowned Jewish historian of his time.

Irrelevant.  The only question that matters is did he write on this particular subject at hand?  If he did, then post it.  If he didn't, then you didn't have a point when you made the empty quip.

===

"The observance of the Seventh-day Sabbath by Polycarp would be in harmony with the teachings and practice of Jesus ( Gospel of Mark 2:27-28; Gospel of Luke 4:16), Paul ( Acts of the Apostles 13:14, 42-44; 16:13; 17:2; 18:4), and John, his mentor ( Book of Revelation 14:12; 12:17; 1 John 5:3 cf. Book of Exodus 20:8-11)."  from http://www.reference.com/browse/polycarp
« Last Edit: January 03, 2012, 04:45:42 AM by djconklin »
"Analyzing Alleged Plagiarism in Nineteenth-Century Literature: A Case Study of Ellen G. White’s The Desire of Ages," by David J. Conklin, Jerry Moon, and Kevin Morgan Plagiary 2008 3(5): 1-29.

That study compared 47 authors with each other.  I now have 225 in the study.  The critics have yet to do even two authors.  That would require work; it is much easier to tell a lie.
---
When they cannot and will not tell you the truth on the simple stuff, why should you trust them on the more complex?

"At the end of the day, the truth is the only thing we have." Horatio Caine, CSI: Miami

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Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #78 on: January 03, 2012, 04:32:00 AM »

Offline DaveW

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Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #79 on: January 03, 2012, 04:49:45 AM »
Why would people want to gather on the day of final judgement?  (day of the Lord)

Lord's day = day of the Lord linguistically.
The resurrection is the most important aspect of Christ's ministry for those of us who stick to the traditions of the Early Church. So it's not hard to see why Christians bound Sunday as the day of assembly over Saturday.
I get that. But who said Sunday is the "Day of the Lord" which in scripture always refers to the day of final judgement? ? ? ?

Isa 13.6 Wail, for the day of the LORD is near; as destruction from the Almighty it will come!
7 Therefore all hands will be feeble, and every human heart will melt.
8 They will be dismayed: pangs and agony will seize them; they will be in anguish like a woman in labor. They will look aghast at one another;  their faces will be aflame.
9 Behold, the day of the LORD comes, cruel, with wrath and fierce anger, to make the land a desolation and to destroy its sinners from it.

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Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #79 on: January 03, 2012, 04:49:45 AM »



Offline Hobie

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Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #80 on: January 03, 2012, 05:57:18 AM »
Well lets look at Samuele Bacchiocchi's book From Sabbath to Sunday: A Historical Investigation of the Rise of Sunday Observance in Early Christianity.

"...How did the change come about from Saturday to Sunday in early Christianity? To find an answer to this question I spent five years at the Pontifical University in Rome, investigating for my doctoral dissertation the earliest Christian documents. This short article represents a brief summary of my research.

Historically, the change from Sabbath to Sunday has been attributed to the ecclesiastical authority of the Roman Catholic church rather than to Biblical or apostolic precepts. Thomas Aquinas, for example, explicitly states that:
"the observance of the Lord's Day took the place of the observance of the Sabbath not by virtue of the [Biblical] precept but by the institution of the church." (1)
Recently, however, some scholars have argued that Sunday observance has a Biblical and apostolic origin. According to these scholars, from the inceptions of the Church the Apostles themselves chose the first day of the week in place of the seventh day in order to commemorate the resurrection of Christ. (2)
My own assessment of the sources is that this thesis is wrong on two counts. First, the change from Saturday to Sunday occurred sometime after 135 A.D. as a result of an interplay of political, social, pagan and religious factors to be mentioned below. Second, the change originated in Rome and not in Jerusalem. Before submitting the reasons for my conclusions, we shall briefly examine the alleged role of Christ, of the resurrection and of the Jerusalem church in the origin of Sunday.

Jesus and the Origin of Sunday
A popular view holds that Christ by his provocative method of Sabbath keeping-which caused considerable controversy with the religious leaders of His day-intended to pave the way for the abandonment of the Sabbath and the adoption of Sunday keeping instead. This view clearly distorts the intent of Christ's controversial Sabbath activities and teachings which were clearly designed not to nullify but to clarify the divine intent of the Fourth Commandment.

Christ never conceded to have broken the Sabbath commandment. On the contrary He defended Himself and His disciples from the charge of Sabbath breaking by appealing to the Scriptures: "Have you read . . ." (Matt 12:3-5). The intent of Christ's provocative Sabbath teachings and activities was not to pave the way for Sunday keeping, but rather to show the true meaning and function of the Sabbath, namely, a day "to do good" (Matt 12:8), "to save life" (Mark 3:4), to loose people from physical and spiritual bonds (Luke 13:16), and to show "mercy" rather than religiosity (Matt 12:7).

The Resurrection and the Origin of Sunday
Did the apostles introduce Sunday keeping instead of Sabbath keeping in order to commemorate Christ's resurrection by means of the Lord's Supper celebration? This view, though popular, is devoid of Biblical and historical support. The major reasons, briefly stated are the following.


No Command of Christ or of the Apostles
The New Testament never suggests or commands to celebrate Christ's resurrection by a weekly or annual Sunday celebration. This silence is noteworthy in view of the specific instructions given by Christ regarding such practices as baptism (Matt 28:19-20), the Lord's Supper (Mark 14:24-25; 1 Cor 11:23-26) and foot-washing (John 13:14-15).
If Jesus wanted the day of his resurrection to be observed as a day of rest and worship, would He not told the women and the disciples when He rose: "Come apart and celebrate My Resurrection?" Instead He told the women "Go and tell my brethren to go to Galilee" (Matt 28:10) and to the disciples "Go . . . make disciples . . . baptizing them" (Matt 28:19).None of the utterances of the risen Savior reveal an intent to memorialize His resurrection by making Sunday the new day of rest and worship.


No Designation of Sunday as Day of the Resurrection
Sunday is never called in the New Testament as "Day of the Resurrection." It is consistently called "First day of the week." The references to Sunday as day of the resurrection first appear in the early part of the fourth century. (3) By that time Sunday had become associated with the resurrection....."

"....The Earliest Reference to Sunday
The earliest explicit references to Sunday keeping are found in the writings of Barnabas (about 135 A.D.) and Justin Martyr (about 150 A.D.). Both writers do mention the resurrection as a basis for Sunday observance but only as the second of two reasons, important but not predominant. Barnabas' first theological motivation for Sunday keeping is eschatological, namely, that Sunday as "the eight day" represents "the beginning of another world." (4) Justin's first reason for the Christians' Sunday assembly is the inauguration of creation: "because it is the first day on which God, transforming the darkness and prime matter, created the world." (5)
The above indications suffice to discredit the claim that Christ's resurrection on the first day of the week caused the abandonment of the Sabbath and the adoption of Sunday. The truth is that initially the resurrection was celebrated existentially rather than liturgically, that is, by a victorious way of life rather than by a special day of worship....."

".....The attachment of the Jerusalem Church to the Mosaic Law is reflected in some of the decisions of the first Jerusalem Council held about 49-50 A.D. (See Acts 15). The exemption from circumcision is there granted only "to brethren who are of the Gentiles" (Acts 15:23). No concession is made for Jewish-Christians, who must continue to circumcise their children. Moreover, of the four provisions made applicable by the Jerusalem Council to Gentiles, one is moral (abstention from "unchastity") but three are ceremonial (even Gentile Christians are ordered to abstain "from contact with idols and from [eating] what has been strangled and from [eating] blood" (Acts 15:20). This concern of the Jerusalem Council for ritual defilement and Jewish food laws reflects its continued attachment to Jewish ceremonial law and its commands. It would be unthinkable that this Church at this early time would change the Sabbath to Sunday.
James' statement at the Jerusalem Council in support of his proposal to exempt Gentiles from circumcision but not from Mosaic laws in general, is also significant: "For generations past Moses has had spokesmen in every city; he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues" (Acts 15:21). All interpreters recognize that both in his proposal and in its justification, James reaffirms the binding nature of the Mosaic Law which was customarily taught every Sabbath in the synagogue.


Paul's Last Visit
Further insight is provided by Paul's last visit to Jerusalem. The Apostle was informed by James and the elders that thousand of converted Jews were "all zealous for the Law" (Acts 21:20). The same leaders then pressured Paul to prove to the people that he also "lived in observance of the law" (Acts 21-24), by undergoing a rite of purification at the Temple. In the light of this deep commitment to the observance of the Law, it is hardly conceivable that the Jerusalem Church would have abrogated one of its chief precepts-Sabbath keeping-and pioneered Sunday worship instead.


Did Sunday Originate After 70 A.D.?
The foregoing evidences has led some scholars to argue for the Palestinian origin of Sunday observance at a slightly later time, namely, after the Roman destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D. (8) They presume that the flight of the Christians from Jerusalem to Pella as well as the psychological impact of the destruction of the Temple weaned Palestinian Christians away from Jewish observances such as Sabbath keeping.
This assumption is discredited by both Eusebius and Epiphanius who inform us that the Jerusalem Church after 70 A.D. and until Hadrian's siege of Jerusalem in 135 A.D., was composed of and administered by converted Jews, characterized as "zealous to insist on the literal observance of the Law." (9) The orthodox Palestinian Jewish-Christian sect of the Nazarenes, who most scholars regard as "the very direct descendants of the primitive community" (10) of Jerusalem, retained Sabbath keeping on Saturday until the fourth century. Indeed, seventh-day Sabbath keeping was regarded as one of this Church's distinguishing characteristics. (11) This implies that Sabbath observance was not only the traditional custom of the Jerusalem Church, but also of Palestinian Jewish-Christians long after 70 A.D.
Of all the Christian Churches, the Jerusalem Church was both ethnically and theologically the closest and most loyal to Jewish religious traditions, and thus the least likely to change the day of the Sabbath....."

Offline DaveW

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Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #81 on: January 03, 2012, 07:04:53 AM »
I have a problem with anyone who calls the area of Judea "palestine" prior to 135 ad. (Bar Kochba revolt)

I have never read Bacchiocchi's book but I know it has gotten a lot of following in the Messianic movement.

From our own research (modern Messianism attempting to be a recreation of the Nazoreans) we know that the Nazoreans died out in the early 400s due to being cut off theologically from both the gentile church (for being too Jewish) and from Rabbinic Judaism (for being too christian). So his date of them maintaining Saturday into the 4th century is fairly accurate. But the fact that some (including the Nazoreans) used Sunday (defined as sundown Saturday evening) goes back to the Acts.  This was a celebration called Havdalah (seperation) which welcomes the new week.  Since it was also the celebration of Messiah rising on the first day of the week, it was appropriate. 

I do not understand why he says that the idea that the resurrection was on the first day of the week was a product of the 4th century since that fact is mentioned in the gospels.

Offline LightHammer

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Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #82 on: January 03, 2012, 12:47:09 PM »
>>Nope.  About 135 when the Jews were revolting yet once again against the Romans, the Romans would attack on the Sabbath.  Since the Christians were also meeting on the Sabbath, they'd get killed, enslaved, etc. along with the Jews.  So, the Christians, primarily in Rome and Alexandria, took the expedient way out and changed their day of worship to the first day of the week and worship on that day along with the pagans.

>A black lie.

See Dr. Bacchiocchi's dissertation.  He looked at the original records in the library while studying at the Papal University for which he was awarded a gold medal by the Pope.

>I would recommend you seek absolution for such a dark revision of history

Go wash your mouth out with soap for bearing false witness against your neighbor.

>They were doing so in the Bible and the earliest Christian codice the Didache attest to it.

There is no evidence within the Bible to that.

>I fear for how God's wrath will deal with liars. I'll pray for you.

He will--confess and repent.  But I know a leopard can't change his spots.


1. Present the material or don't mention the author didn't you put it something like that? More hypocrisy.

2. No need to wash my mouth out this time. You lied intentionally or unintentionally it makes no difference. The Bible holds Christians gathering and breaking bread on the first day. The Didache which is a first century Christian codice instructs us to gather on the Lord's Day. St. Ignatius who had no fear of Roman oppression instructs his flock in Antioch to keep the Lord's Day and he did en route to being eaten alive by lions.

Your entire claim is false.

3. Please come on now. Acts 20:7, 1 Corinthians 6:2

"For they needs must seek some support,  since they have fallen from the foundation of the Apostles and have no settled mind of their own, and if they can find none, then they malign the fathers. But no one will believe them any more even if they make efforts to libel them, for their heresy is condemned on all hands." St. Athanasius of Alexandria

Offline LightHammer

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Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #83 on: January 03, 2012, 01:18:15 PM »
>>>he wrote much on the Early Church.
>>Then post the relevant portions.
>I wouldn't know where to start and I don't even know his records on this particular issue.

Then you had no business making your claim.

>I only know that he was the most renowned Jewish historian of his time.

Irrelevant.  The only question that matters is did he write on this particular subject at hand?  If he did, then post it.  If he didn't, then you didn't have a point when you made the empty quip.

===

"The observance of the Seventh-day Sabbath by Polycarp would be in harmony with the teachings and practice of Jesus ( Gospel of Mark 2:27-28; Gospel of Luke 4:16), Paul ( Acts of the Apostles 13:14, 42-44; 16:13; 17:2; 18:4), and John, his mentor ( Book of Revelation 14:12; 12:17; 1 John 5:3 cf. Book of Exodus 20:8-11)."  from http://www.reference.com/browse/polycarp


1. No it's not irrelevant and it only proves to reveal your ignorance of Josephous. He's far more relevant than your website excerpt.

2. I see you didn't even quote St. Polycarp which is kind of strange seeing how he is one of the few ECF's who didn't write a wide collection of works. If you're not going to post the relevant quotes don't mention the author.
"For they needs must seek some support,  since they have fallen from the foundation of the Apostles and have no settled mind of their own, and if they can find none, then they malign the fathers. But no one will believe them any more even if they make efforts to libel them, for their heresy is condemned on all hands." St. Athanasius of Alexandria

Offline djconklin

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Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #84 on: January 03, 2012, 01:23:31 PM »
>1. Present the material or don't mention the author didn't you put it something like that? More hypocrisy.

The diff is that I can back up what I say.  You called the truth/fact a lie and still haven't provided your support.  How's that for a lie?

See http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/books/sabbath_to_sunday/6.html

>You lied intentionally or unintentionally it makes no difference.

Claiming that someone lied without proving is yet another lie.

>The Bible holds Christians gathering and breaking bread on the first day.

Again, as I told you before, it does not.

>The Didache which is a first century Christian codice instructs us to gather on the Lord's Day.

Late first century at best--after the time frame I mentioned--and even it says nothing about Sunday.

14:1 reads "Κατα κυριακὴν δε κυριου"  which means "According to the Lord's way, even the Lord's" or "According to the Lordly {way}, even the Lord's." (from http://www.cogwriter.com/ignatius.htm)

>Ignatius ... instructs his flock in Antioch to keep the Lord's Day

He said nothing about the Lord's day.  See http://www.cogwriter.com/ignatius.htm.

>Please come on now. Acts 20:7, 1 Corinthians 6:2

Whenever a critic cites Bible text like this, but doesn't show you that text, that is your hint that you are being played.

(NIV?) Acts 20:7 On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul began talking to them, intending to leave the next day, and he prolonged his message until midnight. 8 There were many lamps in the upper room where we were gathered together. 9 And there was a young man named Eutychus sitting on the window sill, sinking into a deep sleep; and as Paul kept on talking, he was overcome by sleep and fell down from the third floor and was picked up dead. 10 But Paul went down and fell upon him, and after embracing him, he said, “Do not be troubled, for his life is in him.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2012, 03:12:20 PM by djconklin »
"Analyzing Alleged Plagiarism in Nineteenth-Century Literature: A Case Study of Ellen G. White’s The Desire of Ages," by David J. Conklin, Jerry Moon, and Kevin Morgan Plagiary 2008 3(5): 1-29.

That study compared 47 authors with each other.  I now have 225 in the study.  The critics have yet to do even two authors.  That would require work; it is much easier to tell a lie.
---
When they cannot and will not tell you the truth on the simple stuff, why should you trust them on the more complex?

"At the end of the day, the truth is the only thing we have." Horatio Caine, CSI: Miami

Offline LightHammer

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Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #85 on: January 03, 2012, 02:00:59 PM »
>1. Present the material or don't mention the author didn't you put it something like that? More hypocrisy.

The diff is that I can back up what I say.  You called the truth/fact a lie and still haven't provided your support.  How's that for a lie?

See http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/books/sabbath_to_sunday/6.html

>You lied intentionally or unintentionally it makes no difference.

Claiming that someone lied without proving is yet another lie.

>The Bible holds Christians gathering and breaking bread on the first day.

Again, as I told you before, it does not.

>The Didache which is a first century Christian codice instructs us to gather on the Lord's Day.

Late first century at best--after the time frame I mentioned--and even it says nothing about Sunday.

14:1 reads "Κατα κυριακὴν δε κυριου"  which means "According to the Lord's way, even the Lord's" or "According to the Lordly {way}, even the Lord's." (from http://www.cogwriter.com/ignatius.htm)

>Ignatius ... instructs his flock in Antioch to keep the Lord's Day

He said nothing about the Lord's day.  See http://www.cogwriter.com/ignatius.htm.

>Please come on now. Acts 20:7, 1 Corinthians 6:2

Whenever a critic cites Bible text like this, but doesn't show you that text, that is your hint that you are being played.

(NIV?) Acts 20:7 On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul began talking to them, intending to leave the next day, and he prolonged his message until midnight. 8 There were many lamps in the upper room where we were gathered together. 9 And there was a young man named Eutychus sitting on the window sill, sinking into a deep sleep; and as Paul kept on talking, he was overcome by sleep and fell down from the third floor and was picked up dead. 10 But Paul went down and fell upon him, and after embracing him, he said, “Do not be troubled, for his life is in him.
"For they needs must seek some support,  since they have fallen from the foundation of the Apostles and have no settled mind of their own, and if they can find none, then they malign the fathers. But no one will believe them any more even if they make efforts to libel them, for their heresy is condemned on all hands." St. Athanasius of Alexandria

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Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #86 on: January 03, 2012, 02:31:47 PM »

I do not understand why he says that the idea that the resurrection was on the first day of the week was a product of the 4th century since that fact is mentioned in the gospels.

May I draw your attention to Mk.16 ; early the first day of the week the women came to the sepulchre, the stone was already rolled away. In the tomb was a young man in white garment saying : you seek Jesus v6, he is risen, he is not here...
can we honestly conclude it saying that Jesus had risen on sunday morning ?
The only fact we have is that He was no longer there . According to what we are told here we don't know when He rose from the dead...it is simply ASSUMING Jesus rose on sunday and the whole world has believed this idea.
But there are scriptures telling us the truth....not least from Jesus' own mouth...if people would believe Him.

Offline LightHammer

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Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #87 on: January 03, 2012, 02:39:12 PM »

I do not understand why he says that the idea that the resurrection was on the first day of the week was a product of the 4th century since that fact is mentioned in the gospels.

May I draw your attention to Mk.16 ; early the first day of the week the women came to the sepulchre, the stone was already rolled away. In the tomb was a young man in white garment saying : you seek Jesus v6, he is risen, he is not here...
can we honestly conclude it saying that Jesus had risen on sunday morning ?
The only fact we have is that He was no longer there . According to what we are told here we don't know when He rose from the dead...it is simply ASSUMING Jesus rose on sunday and the whole world has believed this idea.
But there are scriptures telling us the truth....not least from Jesus' own mouth...if people would believe Him.

Nope there's no question that Christ rise in the first day.


Mark 16:9
Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.
Mark 16:8-10 (in Context) Mark 16 (Whole Chapter)


Nice try though.
"For they needs must seek some support,  since they have fallen from the foundation of the Apostles and have no settled mind of their own, and if they can find none, then they malign the fathers. But no one will believe them any more even if they make efforts to libel them, for their heresy is condemned on all hands." St. Athanasius of Alexandria

Offline djconklin

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Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #88 on: January 03, 2012, 03:33:45 PM »
>1. I didn't just call your lies lies. I named several sources you could differ to for verification

Anyone can list sources.  You showed no actual quotes--which the web pages I directed you to do.

>Your first web link doesn't even work at least not for me.

Fixed it--the 'h' in 'http' got clipped!

>3. I provided the verse.

I showed what the verse actually said.  I've met a lot of critics who point to a Bible verse, but can't/won't show the actual verse, because it doesn't say what they said it said.

>4. I see you haven't read the Didache

Liar. I showed you what it said: "14:1 reads "Κατα κυριακὴν δε κυριου"".

There is no Greek support for the word "day" in the verse.

>This Church of God minister is wrong. Your website is biased. If anyone checks it out they will. The Greek language doesn't even work like that.

Love the proof for the claims.  Of course, it is impossible that you are wrong.

>The Greek word for " way" isn't even similar to the Greek word for "day".

No kidding Sherlock.

>Look it up. You've been dubbed.

Why?  Can't you post the proof?  Afraid of it?

>5. Nobody's being played I just can't copy and paste everything from my IPhone.

Like we've got proof for that.

>A) So we're supposed to just take you at your word that first day means Saturday night? Alrighty then because you have such an impressive track record.

Better track record than yours, liar.

See #3, #9 at http://ncbible.org/resources/ActsComm10.html for one example of Luke's use of Jewish time reckoning.

Conybeare and Howson comment: “It was the evening which succeeded the Jewish Sabbath. On the Sunday morning the vessel was about to sail
"Analyzing Alleged Plagiarism in Nineteenth-Century Literature: A Case Study of Ellen G. White’s The Desire of Ages," by David J. Conklin, Jerry Moon, and Kevin Morgan Plagiary 2008 3(5): 1-29.

That study compared 47 authors with each other.  I now have 225 in the study.  The critics have yet to do even two authors.  That would require work; it is much easier to tell a lie.
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When they cannot and will not tell you the truth on the simple stuff, why should you trust them on the more complex?

"At the end of the day, the truth is the only thing we have." Horatio Caine, CSI: Miami

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Re: Jesus kept the Sabbath, its as simple as that...
« Reply #89 on: January 04, 2012, 03:39:45 AM »

I do not understand why he says that the idea that the resurrection was on the first day of the week was a product of the 4th century since that fact is mentioned in the gospels.

May I draw your attention to Mk.16 ; early the first day of the week the women came to the sepulchre, the stone was already rolled away. In the tomb was a young man in white garment saying : you seek Jesus v6, he is risen, he is not here...
can we honestly conclude it saying that Jesus had risen on sunday morning ?
The only fact we have is that He was no longer there . According to what we are told here we don't know when He rose from the dead...it is simply ASSUMING Jesus rose on sunday and the whole world has believed this idea.
But there are scriptures telling us the truth....not least from Jesus' own mouth...if people would believe Him.

Nope there's no question that Christ rise in the first day.


Mark 16:9
Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.
Mark 16:8-10 (in Context) Mark 16 (Whole Chapter)


Nice try though.


It's more than a 'nice try...we are not playing a game !
 'WAS risen' more than implies 'past tense since Jesus was no longer there and  especially when connected to all other scriptures relating to the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. He never leaves Himself without witness.

Traditional Christians need a 'sunday-resurrection or their whole 'sunday-worship would collapse .