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Offline Hobie

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Mark Of The Beast (on the hand)
« on: Sat Jul 25, 2020 - 03:27:48 »
First lets look at what is God’s mark, or symbol, of authority:

Ezekiel 20:12 King James Version (KJV)
 12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the Lord that sanctify them.

 Here we see God is saying that He gave us His Sabbath as a sign of His power to create and His power to sanctify (convert and save) us. In the Bible, the Sabbath, represents Gods holy power to rule as Creator and Savior and has never been changed. Now lets look first at the mark on the forehead:

Revelation 7:1-3 King James Version (KJV)
 1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
 2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
 3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Revelation 7:1–3 says it will be written upon the foreheads (or minds) of His people. It will signify that they are owned by Him and have His character. We find Hebrews 10:16 and may others that it will be written in their minds or the forehead:

Hebrews 10:16 King James Version (KJV)
 16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

 Since the symbol, mark, of God’s authority and power is His holy Sabbath day, it seems likely that the symbol, or mark, of God’s enemy the beast might also involve a day and its mark of authority. Let’s see if it does:

Revelation 14:8-10 King James Version (KJV)
 8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
 9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

 So what does the Roman Catholic Church say is her symbol, or mark, of authority? Notice from Catholic catechism:

“Question: Have you any other way of proving that the Church has power to institute festivals of precept?

 Answer: Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her—she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority.”8

 The papacy is here saying that it “changed” Sabbath to Sunday and that virtually all churches accepted the new holy day. Thus, the papacy claims that Sunday as a holy day is the mark, or symbol, of her power and authority. And they do not shy away from this...

 "Protestants ... accept Sunday rather than Saturday as the day for public worship after the Catholic Church made the change... But the Protestant mind does not seem to realize that ... in observing Sunday, they are accepting the authority of the spokesman for the Church, the pope." Our Sunday Visitor, February 5th, 1950. This Rock

 Question: Which is the Sabbath day?
 Answer: Saturday is the Sabbath day.

 Question: Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
 Answer: We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday. -Rev. Peter Geiermann C.SS.R., The Convert's Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, p. 50

 Q. Should not the Protestant doubt when he finds that he himself holds tradition as a guide?
 A. Yes, if he would but reflect that he has nothing but Catholic Tradition for keeping the Sunday holy; ... Controversial Catechism by Stephen Keenan, New Edition, revised by Rev. George Cormack, published in London by Burns & Oates, Limited - New York, Cincinnati, Chicago: Benzinger Brothers, 1896, pages 6, 7.

 "The Church, on the other hand, after changing the day of rest from the Jewish Sabbath, or seventh day of the week, to the first, made the Third Commandment refer to Sunday as the day to be kept holy as the Lord's Day. The Council of Trent (Sess. VI, can. xix) condemns those who deny that the Ten Commandments are binding on Christians." The Catholic Encyclopedia, Commandments of God, Volume IV, © 1908 by Robert Appleton Company, Online Edition © 1999 by Kevin Knight, Nihil Obstat - Remy Lafort, Censor Imprimatur - +John M. Farley, Archbishop of New York, page 153.

Offline Hobie

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Re: Mark Of The Beast (on the hand)
« Reply #1 on: Sat Jul 25, 2020 - 03:28:34 »


So we can see the mark of authority of the Papacy in the religious belief aspect on the forehead or (minds), but lets look at the mark of the beast on the hand or the secular aspect. We find the Pope is planning the implementation the secular aspect of the mark for even atheist is being laid out right before our very eyes.. A day of rest for 'Mother Earth' due to the nonreligious reasons, for 'climate change' and now more urgent to the conflicts and pandemics swirling among us.

 If you go through the May 2020 Popes encyclical letter, 'Laudato Si', you find is suggested to be enforced by the nations.

 Pope Francis updated May 2020 plan is to rally Nations behind Climate Change and Sunday law.

 The encyclical is called Laudato Si, and is the Pope's encyclical on climate change, which looks on the surface as just reducing carbon emissions, carpooling, planting trees and recycling, etc....But in the encyclical, the Pope suggest also a worldwide day of rest, Sundays with keeping a better environment.

 The implication here is that we need to have a law mandating rest on Sunday, so it appears that his agenda on climate change includes giving Sunday rest and worship mandated by law to improve the environment.. The Pope is asking the world to join this rest, take a look..

 In his May 2020 encyclical updated letter 'Laudato S?i'.
 "...As part of this year's anniversary activities, a 'Laudato Si' Action Platform will also be launched, with various institutions committing to a 7-year project aimed at reaching total sustainability in the spirit of Laudato S'i.
 Among the goals of the platform, according to the Vatican's department for Integral Human Development, are adopting simpler lifestyles and developing ?ecological economics? based on sustainable production, fair trade, using less plastic and adopting a more plant-based diet to reduce meat consumption, as well as a broader use of public transport in order to reduce pollution.
 According to their communique, the Vatican's development office intends to launch the platform in early 2021 by inviting several institutions to begin the 7-year project. The following year, they will encourage a new group to join, with the hope of doubling the number of entities committing to the 7-year plan.
 In this way we are planning to grow a Laudato Si ' inspired network that continues to expand and grow exponentially each year,' they said, noting that this initiative will continue for each consecutive year of the new decade, with the goal of arriving at the 'critical mass' needed in order to lead a 'radical societal transformation' inspired by Pope Francis in Laudato Si......"https://cruxnow.com/vatican/2020/05/vatican-launches-year-long-cele...

 The encyclical letter Laudato Si is available here on the Vatican website. And so we come to the notion of rest, or more accurately, Sabbath:
 237. On Sunday, our participation in the Eucharist has special importance. Sunday, like the Jewish Sabbath, is meant to be a day which heals our relationships with God, with ourselves, with others and with the world. Sunday is the day of the Resurrection, the 'first day' of the new creation, whose first fruits are the Lord's risen humanity, the pledge of the final transfiguration of all created reality. It also proclaims '(humankind's) eternal rest in God'.[CCC 2175] In this way, Christian spirituality incorporates the value of relaxation and festivity. http://w2.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/encyclicals/documents/pap...


Offline Hobie

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Re: Mark Of The Beast (on the hand)
« Reply #2 on: Sat Jul 25, 2020 - 03:29:16 »
This is being pushed by many strange alliance of forces, and now the Pope is bringing it to a head...

 "The 10:10 movement supported by the Guardian is a wonderful way to empower ordinary people to participate in the great movement of mitigating global warming. We cannot wait until governments are enlightened enough to legislate and cap the carbon emissions. Matters are urgent. We have to act now, without any delay. The power of public opinion and citizen action will have a strong impact on the climate conference taking place in Copenhagen.

 One thing we can easily do to achieve this goal: we can declare Sunday to be a fossil fuel-free day or a low-carbon day or at least an energy-saving day. We can start this week, this month or in 2010. We can start individually and collectively. The long journey to cut carbon dioxide emissions can start in the here and now."

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/cif-green/2009/sep/17/low-c...

 "Pitch

 Once A Week, Give Our Beautiful Planet A Day Of Rest. A Green Sabbath Day.

Description
 Summary
 Green Sabbath is a non-religious, non-political, and non-profit campaign which aims to raise awareness and to encourage people to help slow climate change, preserve precious natural resources and improve planet health by observing at least one carbon footprint-free day each week--on any day of the week. We call it symbolically A Green Sabbath day.

 " https://www.climatecolab.org/contests/2015/harnessing-the-power-of-...

 They are even having children write the articles...

 "In the current hazardous state that we are in, more proactive measures have to be taken. It is not impossible to lower the global temperature or slow its increase. Stopping everything for one day could save our jobs, our planet and our future.".. http://www.courant.com/opinion/op-ed/hc-op-fresh-talk-doolittle-gre...

Offline Hobie

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Re: Mark Of The Beast (on the hand)
« Reply #3 on: Sat Jul 25, 2020 - 03:30:10 »
We see the beast causes the mark to be in the hand (secular) as well as the forehead (or mind) which is the belief is held or religious belief:

Revelation 13:16 King James Version (KJV)
 16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

 The forehead represents the mind and a person will be marked in the forehead by a decision to keep Sunday as a holy day. The hand is a symbol of work and a person will be marked in the hand by going along with Sunday laws for practical reasons (job, family, climate change, pandemic, etc.). The sign, or mark, for either God or the beast will be invisible to people as it is the mark of authority from one or the other. You will, in essence, mark yourself by accepting either God’s mark, the day He made for man from Creation, the Sabbath, or the beast’s mark which is the Papacy, its mark of authority, Sunday/Sunday Sacredness. Though invisible to men, God will know who has which mark, and who they follow:

2 Timothy 2:19 King James Version (KJV)
 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Revelation 20:4 King James Version (KJV)
 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 Now no one will have the mark of the beast until Sunday worship/secular day of rest becomes an issue forced by law, and it will come just as all Bible prophecy. At that time, those who decide to follow the false teachings of the beast and worship on the beast’s counterfeit holy day will receive his mark. Those who follow Christ and obey His truth will keep His Sabbath day holy and receive His mark.

Offline Hobie

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Re: Mark Of The Beast (on the hand)
« Reply #4 on: Sat Jul 25, 2020 - 03:31:34 »
Now lets look at the Mark of the Beast on the forehead or religious aspect. I posted this in one of the other forums and thought it would be good to post here...Lets see what the Bible tells us of the Mark of the Beast in Revelation 14:

 Revelation 14:9-11 King James Version (KJV)
 9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

 In Revelation 14: 9-11, the Bible describes the terrible fate of those who receive the Mark of the Beast. In stark contrast, Revelation 14: 12 describes those who stand victorious with Jesus on Mount Zion:
 Revelation 14: 12 King James Version (KJV)
 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

 Now lets look in Reveleation 7 to see what it shows of what happens with those who are sealed:
 Revelation 7:1-3 King James Version (KJV)
 1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
 2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
 3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

 In Revelation 7: 1-3 an angel ascends from the east with the seal of the living God. This angel comes down from heaven and puts a seal on people's foreheads. Two classes are represented as we see. Those who receive the mark of the beast and eventually receive the plagues. Those who keep the commandments of God, who are sealed by the angel, and do not receive the plagues. We read in Isaiah the following:
 Isaiah 8: 16 King James Version (KJV)
 16 Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.

 Therefore, the seal of God is contained in His law. The Bible teaches that the final issue will be over the seal of God as opposed to the mark of the beast.

 The Mark of the Beast is his seal of authority, and that would be "a rule or order that it is obligatory to observe" which he has passed. This would include the Sabbath along with all the other changes he has made that he claims he has the authority to do so, as we see in Daniel 7:

 Daniel 7:25 King James Version (KJV)
 25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws:

 So it is a change of Gods seal of authority, which are his laws which have been with us since creation and were written out on the tablets of stone, by the Beast with false laws or rules of divine observance that are his seal of authority.

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Re: Mark Of The Beast (on the hand)
« Reply #4 on: Sat Jul 25, 2020 - 03:31:34 »



Offline Hobie

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Re: Mark Of The Beast (on the hand)
« Reply #5 on: Sat Jul 25, 2020 - 03:32:19 »
We are charged to follow Gods truth not traditions or doctrines of men, and his commandments stand as Jesus said:

 John 15:10 King James Version (KJV)
 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

 We have to be careful that we not be turned by any man or his ideas from Gods truth:
 Colossians 2:4-8 King James Version (KJV)
 4 And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words.
 5 For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.
 6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
 7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
 8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

 Colossians 2:18-22 King James Version (KJV)
 18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
 19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
 20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
 21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
 22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?

 The Sabbath is the "sign" of God's people, however a individual can be a Sabbath keeping Christian and still have the Mark of the Beast. How so, well by following it in its false practices of worship, which is really worship of the Beast. Lets look at the text closely...

 Revelation 14:9-12 King James Version (KJV)
 9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

 Worshiping on Sunday or holding it sacred is a direct way of worshiping the Beast, but there are other ways which we must be careful to avoid, which opens the door to following the Beast power.

Offline Hobie

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Re: Mark Of The Beast (on the hand)
« Reply #6 on: Sat Jul 25, 2020 - 03:33:18 »
Lets look closer at one verse here, Rev.14:12 'Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.'

 We see the mark of the beast has to do with God's law, keeping His commandments. While the Sabbath is central in it, as a "sign" of his people who keep his law, the text in verse 10 says 'If any man worship the beast and his image' it leads to the mark of the beast.

 This means an individual can be worshiping the beast in what it lays out as its 'holy days' and practices which can only be seen as worship to false pagan gods and idols. So we have to keep ourselves clear of anything that worships the Beast and its image.

 Scripture shows us what the law is and how we need to follow it.

 Hebrews 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

 Deep into our hearts it should go and be understood, not a surface understanding..

 Even the Catholic church admits it 'superimposed' holy days on pagan feasts, but justify it by saying the the pagan connections to them ceased and the holy day became 'thoroughly Christian'. How do you make pagan worship 'thoroughly Christian'?

Offline Rella

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Re: Mark Of The Beast (on the hand)
« Reply #7 on: Sat Jul 25, 2020 - 08:16:40 »
We see the beast causes the mark to be in the hand (secular) as well as the forehead (or mind) which is the belief is held or religious belief:



 The forehead represents the mind and a person will be marked in the forehead by a decision to keep Sunday as a holy day.

Before you start explaining your thoughts on this subject first you have to definitively prove the Bible translation you use is correct.

NKJV says Rev 13:16-18 16 He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads,

ON is simply not the same as IN.... And on could not even suggest representing the mind.

Lets look further

NIV 16 It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads,

KJV 16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

Tyndale 16 And he made all bothe smale and grett ryche and poore fre and bond to receave a marke in their right hondes or in their forheddes.

Weymouth: 16 And he causes all, small and great, rich and poor, free men and slaves, to have stamped upon them a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads,

Wycliff: 16 And he shall make all, small and great, rich and poor, free men and bondmen, to have a character, either mark, in their right hand, either in their foreheads [or in their foreheads];

Youngs literal ranslation: 16 And it maketh all, the small, and the great, and the rich, and the poor, and the freemen, and the servants, that it may give to them a mark upon their right hand or upon their foreheads,

Remember.... the Greeks had it first...

Greek interlinear: 16 And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor and the freeman and the slaves, that he may give to them a mark on the hand of them the right, or on the foreheads of them

https://www.logosapostolic.org/interlinear-nt/revelation/13.htm

1And among the oldest translations

Codex Sinaiticus : 16 And he causes all, small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark on their right hand, or on their forehead,

https://codexsinaiticus.org/en/manuscript.aspx?book=59&chapter=13&lid=en&side=r&verse=16&zoomSlider=0




Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: Mark Of The Beast (on the hand)
« Reply #8 on: Sat Jul 25, 2020 - 09:06:52 »
Hi Hobie,

I see you made an omission in your very first paragraph.  Ezekiel spoke of *PLURAL* SABBATHS.  This would indicate not just the weekly Sabbath, but also the seventh year Sabbath, and the Jubilee Sabbath year after the 49th year.  Indeed, Ezekiel very likely meant to include ALL the days of holy convocation for Israel, in which no work was to be done. 

Why are you concentrating solely on the SINGLE weekly Sabbath day for your interpretation, when Ezekiel spoke of ALL the Sabbaths that Israel was once charged to observe?  This would then involve more than just a discussion of a Saturday versus Sunday debate.


Offline Amo

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Re: Mark Of The Beast (on the hand)
« Reply #9 on: Sat Jul 25, 2020 - 10:42:37 »
Hi Hobie,

I see you made an omission in your very first paragraph.  Ezekiel spoke of *PLURAL* SABBATHS.  This would indicate not just the weekly Sabbath, but also the seventh year Sabbath, and the Jubilee Sabbath year after the 49th year.  Indeed, Ezekiel very likely meant to include ALL the days of holy convocation for Israel, in which no work was to be done. 

Why are you concentrating solely on the SINGLE weekly Sabbath day for your interpretation, when Ezekiel spoke of ALL the Sabbaths that Israel was once charged to observe?  This would then involve more than just a discussion of a Saturday versus Sunday debate.

The old covenant nation, economy, and religious system of Israel is no more. The literal Israel of today, is not what it was. The spiritual Israel of today is composed of all who follow the faith of Abraham in Christ Jesus. The ceremonial or civil sabbaths applicable to literal Israel of the old covenant were part of a literal theocracy which no longer exists today by God's own design. The moral Sabbath of the fourth commandment of God was established at creation by the authority of God 2000 years before there ever was a Jew or even sin in this world. The scriptures declare it will be observed in the new heaven and new earth. A blessing was even pronounced during the old covenant upon non Jews who would keep it, which included the gentiles prophetically addressed in connection with that blessing.

So to the contrary of your above statement, God's seventh day Sabbath was here from the beginning, and will be to the end of this earth and beyond apart from literal Israel or not. Any attempt to replace that created and established by the word and command of God, by any other but God Himself, is unquestionably antichrist. Since Christ Himself came to fulfill and establish God's law, not contradict or do away with it. As He Himself testified.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

As also the final book and chapters of the bible which is the REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST testifies concerning the faith of Jesus and those who have it.

Rev 12:17  And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Can there be any question but that the woman described above is any other but the Church of Christ who keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ?

Rev 14:9  And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God , which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. 13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

What is the exact difference between those who worship the beast and receive its mark in their hands or foreheads as described in the above testimony, and the saints? The saints keep the commandments of God according to the faith of Jesus. Apparently therefore, those who worship the beast do not. The fourth commandment is right in the middle of the ten and was spoken by the mouth of God, and written with His own finger twice for humanity.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. 16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.



« Last Edit: Sat Jul 25, 2020 - 10:46:47 by Amo »

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: Mark Of The Beast (on the hand)
« Reply #10 on: Sat Jul 25, 2020 - 12:39:51 »
Hey there Amo,

You’d be hard put to it (since we are almost 6,000 years past Creation Week’s 7th day) to say with precision that today’s Saturday and Sunday are exactly the same in time as the original 6th and 7th day of Creation Week.  That being the case, I find it rather strange to see those so dogmatic about observing either one day of the other, since we can’t really be that precise as to those exact days in the calendar computations.  For all you know, the original 7th day is now falling on a Tuesday, or a Thursday, etc..

I see scripture giving the original 7th day of Creation Week some rather different significant meanings than what are traditionally put upon it. 

The 7th day when God rested from all His works was meant to prefigure the “rest” we have in Christ as the fulfillment of the Sabbath.  This means that not the slightest effort performed by mankind is needed or accepted for our salvation, because Christ fulfilled all the requirements necessary.  Not one so-called righteous work of ours is accepted to establish this “rest”...not a single one.  That explains the severity of Moses’ judgment on the man who merely picked up sticks on the Sabbath.  God was underscoring the fact that any works of mankind cannot provide this “rest”.

You want to isolate the meaning of the Sabbath to the mere observance of the 7th day, when there is SO much more than just ceasing to perform wage-earning activity for a 24-hour period.  Look a bit deeper than the surface.

Also, since Peter wanted to be certain the saints were aware in II Peter 3:8 of at least this one thing, he said that with the Lord, a day is the same as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.   Since we have  a total of seven 24-hour days in Creation Week, I believe Peter was teaching that fallen man’s history would last for a grand total of 7 thousand years from start to finish, before the eternal age begins. 

We are currently about to switch over into history’s last, 7th period of a thousand years.   Based on how scripture dates the end of the 4th millennium at Christ’s death and resurrection in AD 33, that would mean we are looking at the next millennium of human history starting in AD 2033, which will wrap up finally in AD 3033.

There has ALWAYS been an “Israel of God”, ever since the beginning of mankind.  The ETHNIC nation of Israel entrusted with the oracles of God only provided a sort of microcosm of that fact...that God had the prerogative of choosing from among the fallen nations of mankind those children of promise that would become His children of faith.  Not all those within ETHNIC Israel were of the TRUE Israel of God (Rom.9:6).

“The Lord knoweth them that are His.”

Offline Rella

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Re: Mark Of The Beast (on the hand)
« Reply #11 on: Sat Jul 25, 2020 - 13:15:34 »
Amo,

A simple question.

Can you please explain what you mean by Sabbath.

(Yes, I am aware what the Sabbath is, or is supposed to be)

But want your explanation of the meaning of it and its importance.

Offline Amo

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Re: Mark Of The Beast (on the hand)
« Reply #12 on: Sat Jul 25, 2020 - 15:04:39 »
Amo,

A simple question.

Can you please explain what you mean by Sabbath.

(Yes, I am aware what the Sabbath is, or is supposed to be)

But want your explanation of the meaning of it and its importance.

Of course Rella. A simple question deserves a simple answer, and I am certainly not more qualified to explain the meaning of God's Sabbath than God is, so -

Exo 20:1  And God spake all these words, saying,...............................
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.


It is a day to set aside from others to contemplate our proper relation to God who created us and all that we see of the world we live in.

Exo 31:12 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

It is a day to be observed in memorial of the fact that God is the one who sanctifies His followers. They are to enter into His rest, and seek His righteousness, not their own which they can never produce. As the Lord alone can sanctify anything, He alone also could bless and sanctify a day as He did the seventh day at creation, and He alone could bless and sanctify sinners such as ourselves as He has through Christ Jesus our Lord through whom also He created this world and everything in it.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made..............................................
14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Col 1:13  Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. 21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;


My Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is the creator of this world, and when He stated that He was Lord even of the sabbath, He spoke the truth in that He Himself established the seventh day sabbath at creation.

Mat 12:5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless? 6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple. 7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless. 8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

My Lord and savior Jesus Christ is the Creator, Sustainer, and Savior of this world. When He was finished creating this world and stating that all that He created was good, He blessed and sanctified the seventh day as a memorial to His creation(Gen 2:1-3). When He established the nation of Israel which centered completely around the temple in and through which the sacrifice of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ for sinful humanity was typified, He then established His seventh day sabbath again for that nation which was to represent Him in this world before His first coming(Exo 20:8-11). He called them to remember His sanctified seventh day thereby establishing His place as creator and redeemer of humanity. During which time He also foretold by the prophets the observance of His seventh day sabbath by the gentiles who would be brought into the fold by Himself by His sacrifice for humanity in the establishment of this new covenant era(Isa 56:1-8). During which time also He declared through the same prophets that His sabbath would be observed in the new heaven and new earth as well(Isa 66:22-24). After which time, when He became a man in order to fulfill the will of God the Father in human flesh, He kept the seventh day sabbath and taught all it s proper observance as well, which had been maligned by the scribes and pharisees of the day(Mt 12:2-14, Mk 2:22-28 &3:1-6, Lk 13:10-17 & 14:1-6, Jn 7:14-24). During which time also He predicted that His followers would still be keeping His sabbath in the end of time right before He returned at His second coming(Mt 24:15-21). Therefore do I desire along with many other true followers of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, to honor our Lord's seventh day sabbath.




Offline Amo

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Re: Mark Of The Beast (on the hand)
« Reply #13 on: Sat Jul 25, 2020 - 18:54:00 »
Quote
Hey there Amo,

You’d be hard put to it (since we are almost 6,000 years past Creation Week’s 7th day) to say with precision that today’s Saturday and Sunday are exactly the same in time as the original 6th and 7th day of Creation Week.  That being the case, I find it rather strange to see those so dogmatic about observing either one day of the other, since we can’t really be that precise as to those exact days in the calendar computations.  For all you know, the original 7th day is now falling on a Tuesday, or a Thursday, etc..

So you think God blessed and sanctified a certain day and then commanded its observance knowing it would just be lost over time, which He would allow for? Jews have been keeping it since it was given to them,  they are a living record of the seven day cycle. Do you think Christ who was God and the creator did not know what day He was the Lord of, when He declared He was Lord of the sabbath? Do you think He wouldn’t know what you now suppose, and relate it to the scribes and pharisees when they tried to accuse Him of breaking the sabbath? Do you go to church on Sunday, if so why? If what you claim were true, then Sunday keepers would be the worst offenders, having been forcing many to observe their day by civil law for many centuries now. Nevertheless, God has not allowed the timing of His sabbath day to be forgotten.

Quote
I see scripture giving the original 7th day of Creation Week some rather different significant meanings than what are traditionally put upon it. 

The 7th day when God rested from all His works was meant to prefigure the “rest” we have in Christ as the fulfillment of the Sabbath.  This means that not the slightest effort performed by mankind is needed or accepted for our salvation, because Christ fulfilled all the requirements necessary.  Not one so-called righteous work of ours is accepted to establish this “rest”...not a single one.  That explains the severity of Moses’ judgment on the man who merely picked up sticks on the Sabbath.  God was underscoring the fact that any works of mankind cannot provide this “rest”.

The day does represent rest in Christ, but not any of the non scriptural theorizing in your above statement. The man picking up sticks on the sabbath was dealt with so harshly because he disobeyed and thought nothing of a command given by the God he had just witnessed deliver Israel from Egypt with astounding miracles. Was being fed along with the rest of Israel with manna from heaven being gathered every morning accepting the sabbath for forty years. Was being led directly by God by a pillar of cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night. Who also had witnessed God descend upon mount Sinai which smoked like a furnace and violently quaked and shook. He heard the voice of God as a loud sounding trumpet proclaiming His commandments which caused all of Israel to shake and tremble before the Lord. Yet he still lightly considered the command of God who had so awesomely revealed Himself to him and the entire nation. Therefore was he rightly dealt with harshly and quickly.

Scripture says nowhere that the sabbath commandment was done away with in Christ Jesus, because He fulfilled the law or offers us His rest. To the contrary, Christ Himself stated the exact opposite as the effect of Him coming to fulfill the law. Which you know doubt know of and have heard, but apparently refuse.

Mt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Why do you contradict the above testimony of Jesus Christ?

Quote
You want to isolate the meaning of the Sabbath to the mere observance of the 7th day, when there is SO much more than just ceasing to perform wage-earning activity for a 24-hour period.  Look a bit deeper than the surface.

So now you think you know all of my thoughts concerning the seventh day sabbath? That I just want to isolate the meaning of it to cease from wage earning? Just exactly who do you think you are? What do you know of me beyond these message boards, which you think qualifies you to know so much about me and what I think about anything? Your assessment is extremely faulty. I have thought about, shared, and written a great deal regarding the seventh day sabbath of God which you apparently know nothing about.

Nevertheless, greater insight concerning God’s seventh day sabbath certainly does not come from ignoring the basics of the command, and teaching that the day is no longer to be observed against the testimony of Christ Jesus our Lord and the scriptures as a whole. Which scriptures uphold the observance of God’s ten commandments from one end to the other. Not as a means of salvation or righteousness, but as a result of the same.

Quote
Also, since Peter wanted to be certain the saints were aware in II Peter 3:8 of at least this one thing, he said that with the Lord, a day is the same as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.   Since we have  a total of seven 24-hour days in Creation Week, I believe Peter was teaching that fallen man’s history would last for a grand total of 7 thousand years from start to finish, before the eternal age begins. 

We are currently about to switch over into history’s last, 7th period of a thousand years.   Based on how scripture dates the end of the 4th millennium at Christ’s death and resurrection in AD 33, that would mean we are looking at the next millennium of human history starting in AD 2033, which will wrap up finally in AD 3033.

There has ALWAYS been an “Israel of God”, ever since the beginning of mankind.  The ETHNIC nation of Israel entrusted with the oracles of God only provided a sort of microcosm of that fact...that God had the prerogative of choosing from among the fallen nations of mankind those children of promise that would become His children of faith.  Not all those within ETHNIC Israel were of the TRUE Israel of God (Rom.9:6).

Your above stated belief concerning seven thousand years has been shared by many throughout Christian history. The question concerning the next thousand year period would be what transpires during it, and whether it will be on this earth or in heaven. I’m not sure what this has to do with observing God’s seventh day sabbath or not in the present. The scriptures do definitely address a specific thousand year period in the future in the book of Revelation. This would no doubt be the final thousand years you are referring to. Which thousand years separates those of the first resurrection in Christ Jesus unto eternal life, from those of the second resurrection unto eternal damnation in the lake of fire. 

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The second death has no power over those take part in the first resurrection. The rest of the dead though, who live not again until the end of the thousand years, are of the second resurrection and will die the second death in the lake of fire.

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

At the end of the thousand years, when the rest of the dead who took no part in the first resurrection live again, Satan gathers all of them together under his deceptions for their final confrontation with God. At which time all the dead, and Satan, and the beast, and the false prophet are cast into the lake of fire where they will die the second death. Which none who take part in the first resurrection are subject to. Amen. Come Lord Jesus.
« Last Edit: Sat Jul 25, 2020 - 19:01:28 by Amo »

Offline Rella

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Re: Mark Of The Beast (on the hand)
« Reply #14 on: Sun Jul 26, 2020 - 08:30:27 »
Of course Rella. A simple question deserves a simple answer, and I am certainly not more qualified to explain the meaning of God's Sabbath than God is, so -

Exo 20:1  And God spake all these words, saying,...............................
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.


It is a day to set aside from others to contemplate our proper relation to God who created us and all that we see of the world we live in.

Exo 31:12 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

It is a day to be observed in memorial of the fact that God is the one who sanctifies His followers. They are to enter into His rest, and seek His righteousness, not their own which they can never produce. As the Lord alone can sanctify anything, He alone also could bless and sanctify a day as He did the seventh day at creation, and He alone could bless and sanctify sinners such as ourselves as He has through Christ Jesus our Lord through whom also He created this world and everything in it.



Alright.

We agree on this.

We can agree to disagree on which day... and more specifically hours apply to the Sabbath that God was referring to because
I am of the opinion that the exact day of the week that corresponds to the actual 7 day period that God created is a guess by any stretch.

Now.... I tend to agree that it is most likely Sundown Friday to Sundown Saturday in our observable week... but I am getting off my own topic here.

REST. Yes, God commanded it....

But what does that mean to you?

Church going which forces pastor and elders and greeters and others to work? Rather then work?

If you are injured would you stay home until the next day so hospitals and doctors and nurses do not have to work but can rest?

No radio or TV or computer for that causes techs on the other side of things to be working ewhen they need to be resting.

Cant go to a ballgame cause the players need to be resting.

Do you make all your food double the day before so your wife needs not work in the kitchen? (YES... that is a lot of work)

Just how do you keep your Sabbath?

To me this is far more important subject then what day we chose to honor that command


Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: Mark Of The Beast (on the hand)
« Reply #15 on: Sun Jul 26, 2020 - 11:10:38 »
Amo, if you do not know the exact day that Creation Week started (since you are basing your argument on Creation Week’s 7th day), then you can’t be dogmatic as to the particular day on the calendar that it falls on today. 

Neither you nor Hobie have answered why you are not emphasizing the OTHER SABBATHS...PLURAL...(besides the single weekly Sabbath day) that are ALL mentioned in Ezekiel 20:12.  To be consistent, you should also push for us to be observing those other Sabbaths as well. 

When are you going to be observing the “new moon” celebrations?  As you yourself have said already, these “new moons” are listed along with the Sabbath in Isaiah 66:23 as being contemporary with the “new heavens and the new earth” reality (which is a reality we are presently existing in under the ages of the New Covenant established by Christ. 

Actually, this Isaiah 66:23 verse says nothing at all about God’s people worshipping *ON* THE DAY of the Sabbath or the new moon either.  It says “FROM one new moon TO another, and FROM one Sabbath TO another shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord”.  This means in the NHNE reality, that DURING THE ENTIRE WEEK OR MONTH of days, God’s people would be worshipping Him NON-STOP.

You have also misapplied and misunderstood the context of Matthew 24:20, which you say proves that Christians are still to be observing the Sabbath day up until the Lord’s second coming.  All that verse says is that the disciples of Christ should pray that their flight out of Judea when they saw Jerusalem surrounded by armies would not be encumbered by the winter cold or by the Jews restricting their flight by having the gates of the city shut on the Sabbath day, preventing their hurried escape to the mountains.  This verse says absolutely nothing about the disciples themselves being commanded to observe the Jewish Sabbath. 

Such observation was optional - not commanded - in the days when the Apostle Paul wrote Colossians 2:16-17.  To stifle such debate over whether or not the Sabbath should be observed as the Jews had done from antiquity, Paul stated quite firmly, “Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, OR OF THE SABBATH DAYS: which are a SHADOW of things to come; but the body is of Christ.”

These were shadows of some things that were ABOUT TO COME in Paul’s day.  The Greek word used here is “Mellonton”, indicating the soon arrival of the shadows’ fulfillment.  And CHRIST was the substance of their fulfillment, as Paul said. 

True to this prophecy, Christ did indeed return on a SABBATH DAY - on PENTECOST DAY in AD 70, to be exact.  This is why the people were once commanded in Ezekiel 46:3 to worship at the Eastern Gate of Zerubbabel’s rebuilt temple ON THE SABBATH DAY AND THE NEW MOON, because Christ was going to return bodily at that location and at that time on the calendar.




Offline Amo

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Re: Mark Of The Beast (on the hand)
« Reply #16 on: Sun Jul 26, 2020 - 11:17:37 »
Alright.

We agree on this.

We can agree to disagree on which day... and more specifically hours apply to the Sabbath that God was referring to because
I am of the opinion that the exact day of the week that corresponds to the actual 7 day period that God created is a guess by any stretch.

Now.... I tend to agree that it is most likely Sundown Friday to Sundown Saturday in our observable week... but I am getting off my own topic here.

REST. Yes, God commanded it....

But what does that mean to you?

Church going which forces pastor and elders and greeters and others to work? Rather then work?

If you are injured would you stay home until the next day so hospitals and doctors and nurses do not have to work but can rest?

No radio or TV or computer for that causes techs on the other side of things to be working ewhen they need to be resting.

Cant go to a ballgame cause the players need to be resting.

Do you make all your food double the day before so your wife needs not work in the kitchen? (YES... that is a lot of work)

Just how do you keep your Sabbath?

To me this is far more important subject then what day we chose to honor that command

If you would take the time to read the scriptural accounts I referenced in my post which you addressed, you will find that our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ addressed most of the issues you have brought forward in relation to proper sabbath observance at the every least in principle, if not directly. The scribes and pharisees asked Him many similar questions. The underlying answer to all of your questions is the Christ spoken principle that it is lawful to do good on the sabbath.

Mar 3:1 And he entered again into the synagogue; and there was a man there which had a withered hand. 2 And they watched him, whether he would heal him on the sabbath day; that they might accuse him. 3 And he saith unto the man which had the withered hand, Stand forth. 4 And he saith unto them, Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill? But they held their peace. 5 And when he had looked round about on them with anger, being grieved for the hardness of their hearts, he saith unto the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it out: and his hand was restored whole as the other.

It is lawful to do good and the sabbath. Good works are not considered the same as work for pay. Your question about people working at church falls under the same principle, and is also directly addressed by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Mat 12:1 At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat. 2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day. 3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him; 4 How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests? 5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless? 6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple. 7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless. 8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

If doing good in general on the sabbath is no sin, then doing God's work on the sabbath is certainly no sin.

Regarding your statement concerning not knowing which day is actually God's sabbath, as I stated to 3 Resurrections in my reply to Him, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is Himself Lord of the sabbath. If the Jews of Christ's day were observing the wrong day, He most certainly would have brought this out in their debates regarding it, don't you think? No, God did not establish and command a day of rest, and then let HIs chosen people forget which day that was. To the contrary, He repeatedly reminded Israel of their failure to keep His day of rest during the old covenant which made it impossible to lose sight of its proper place in time, and by the time He came here in the flesh the Jews had made an extra big deal of keeping it properly, understanding that there abandonment of it played no small part in God's judgements upon them in their present captivity or subjugation to Rome. Since the time of Christ there have been Jews keeping the proper day in this world which are themselves a living record of which day is the proper seventh day. Apart form this, there has been continual disagreement and debate between Christians throughout history concerning its observance or not, which has kept the issue and actual days involved at the forefront. This is not to mention the extensive implementation of Sunday laws since the time of Constantine which has also maintained the proper order of days since then.

God in His providence has obviously kept and preserved a correct knowledge of which day is His sabbath throughout history through the above mentioned means and others as well. Apart from this the many Sunday laws throughout history which have been on the rise again lately, force the issue to the forefront. If it really doesn't matter, and we didn't even know the proper order of days in relation to the original seven, then what right do "Christians" have to force their chosen day upon everyone else through civil laws? It seems if people really believed this argument they put forward, they would be more upset with those forcing their day upon others by civil laws, than those simply preaching that the seventh day should be kept by faith in God's word alone. Nevertheless, this does not seem to be the case. This is because it does matter, and deep down, everyone knows it.

When God speaks commands or anything for that matter, the details of what he says do matter. It doesn't matter how many people decide that the details of God's word do not matter, they do, and all will in fact be judged by that word.

Joh 12:44  Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. 45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. 46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. 47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. 49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ did not speak the above knowing and understanding that people did to even have enough info to properly observe one of those commandments. Even if they didn't, as God He most certainly could have and would have corrected the problem according to His above statement, don't you think?

Offline Amo

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Re: Mark Of The Beast (on the hand)
« Reply #17 on: Sun Jul 26, 2020 - 17:52:59 »
Amo, if you do not know the exact day that Creation Week started (since you are basing your argument on Creation Week’s 7th day), then you can’t be dogmatic as to the particular day on the calendar that it falls on today.

Your faulty argument and premise above is based upon the presumption that our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ who is God, did not know what day was the sabbath which He Himself stated He was the Lord of. Jesus perfectly kept the law of God, the sabbath He observed was the one He was and is the Lord and creator of.

No, God did not establish and command a day of rest, and then let His chosen people forget which day that was. To the contrary, He repeatedly reminded Israel of their failure to keep His day of rest during the old covenant which made it impossible to lose sight of its proper place in time. By the time He came here in the flesh, the Jews had made an extra big deal of keeping it properly. They understood that their abandonment of it played no small part in God's judgements upon them in their present captivity or subjugation to Rome. Since the time of Christ there have been Jews keeping the proper day in this world which are themselves a living record of which day is the proper seventh day. Apart form this, there has been continual disagreement and debate between Christians throughout history concerning its observance or not, which has kept the issue and actual days involved at the forefront. This is not to mention the extensive implementation of Sunday laws since the time of Constantine which has also maintained the proper order of days since then. God in His providence has obviously kept and preserved a correct knowledge of which day is His sabbath throughout history through the above mentioned means and others as well. Denial will not change these facts.
 
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Neither you nor Hobie have answered why you are not emphasizing the OTHER SABBATHS...PLURAL...(besides the single weekly Sabbath day) that are ALL mentioned in Ezekiel 20:12.  To be consistent, you should also push for us to be observing those other Sabbaths as well.

Yes I did address this in my last response to you. Here is that response again -

"The old covenant nation, economy, and religious system of Israel is no more. The literal Israel of today, is not what it was. The spiritual Israel of today is composed of all who follow the faith of Abraham in Christ Jesus. The ceremonial or civil sabbaths applicable to literal Israel of the old covenant were part of a literal theocracy which no longer exists today by God's own design. The moral Sabbath of the fourth commandment of God was established at creation by the authority of God 2000 years before there ever was a Jew or even sin in this world. The scriptures declare it will be observed in the new heaven and new earth. A blessing was even pronounced during the old covenant upon non Jews who would keep it, which included the gentiles prophetically addressed in connection with that blessing.

So to the contrary of your above statement, God's seventh day Sabbath was here from the beginning, and will be to the end of this earth and beyond apart from literal Israel or not. Any attempt to replace that created and established by the word and command of God, by any other but God Himself, is unquestionably antichrist. Since Christ Himself came to fulfill and establish God's law, not contradict or do away with it. As He Himself testified."

Choosing to ignore the above answer given, does not equal no answer given. Perhaps you missed my above statement. The NT addresses the sabbaths you are referring to as no longer essential.

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. 18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. 20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, 21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not; 22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

The new moons and sabbath days that you are referring to are addressed in the above scriptures. They are concerning the civil, ceremonial, and dietary laws of the literal nation of Israel which were not to be forced upon the gentile converts of this new covenant age. The seventh day sabbath is not part of these laws particular to literal Israel. It is one of the Ten Commandments of God spoken to humanity by the mouth of God Himself and written with His own finger twice in tables if stone. It existed 2000 years before there ever was a Jew, and was established for sinless humanity at creation, and has been observed by God's chosen people to this very day throughout history. Perhaps you are unaware that their have been Christians observing it since the days of Jesus and the apostles.

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When are you going to be observing the “new moon” celebrations?  As you yourself have said already, these “new moons” are listed along with the Sabbath in Isaiah 66:23 as being contemporary with the “new heavens and the new earth” reality (which is a reality we are presently existing in under the ages of the New Covenant established by Christ.

That is a big fat negative. We most certainly are not living in the new heaven and new earth prophesied in the books of Isaiah or Revelation. If you think so you are horribly deceived.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. 5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. 6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

This earth and the present heaven have not passed away. Nor has all pain, suffering, tears, and death ended. If you believe we are living in the new heaven and new earth then this is just a delusion you have chosen in contradiction to the plain testimony of the word of God.

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Actually, this Isaiah 66:23 verse says nothing at all about God’s people worshipping *ON* THE DAY of the Sabbath or the new moon either.  It says “FROM one new moon TO another, and FROM one Sabbath TO another shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord”.  This means in the NHNE reality, that DURING THE ENTIRE WEEK OR MONTH of days, God’s people would be worshipping Him NON-STOP.

More delusional thinking on your part. If the point was referring to everyone worshiping God all the time, as they will, it would not make any sense to bring up references to times in which all will gather together for worship. This is simply another delusion you have chosen which no doubt supports others.

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You have also misapplied and misunderstood the context of Matthew 24:20, which you say proves that Christians are still to be observing the Sabbath day up until the Lord’s second coming.  All that verse says is that the disciples of Christ should pray that their flight out of Judea when they saw Jerusalem surrounded by armies would not be encumbered by the winter cold or by the Jews restricting their flight by having the gates of the city shut on the Sabbath day, preventing their hurried escape to the mountains.  This verse says absolutely nothing about the disciples themselves being commanded to observe the Jewish Sabbath.

I have misapplied nothing, nor have I taken anything out of context. I am simply accepting the context set by scripture itself in very plain terms, and am applying logical progression of thought to the same. You are the one ignoring the context which scripture itself set up concerning the verses under question, and suggesting illogical conclusions concerning what is actually being said.

Mt 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

The above is the question the apostles asked Jesus, which is what His answer was addressing. The destruction of the temple, the second coming of Christ, and the end of the world. That is the context. Denying this or choosing to ignore it, does not change the context. The destruction of Jerusalem was and is a small scale model of what the destruction of this entire world will be like when Christ returns. If you want however to limit the part about the sabbath just to the destruction of Jerusalem, fine. I do not agree, nevertheless, the destruction of Jerusalem was some time off in the future about 70 AD I believe, after the crucifixion of Christ. At which time apparently, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ still understood that God’s seventh day sabbath would and should be kept, as those of that time should pray that their flight not be upon it. This meaning of course that the change to not observing the fourth commandment, was not anticipated or promulgated by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, who is God.

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Such observation was optional - not commanded - in the days when the Apostle Paul wrote Colossians 2:16-17.  To stifle such debate over whether or not the Sabbath should be observed as the Jews had done from antiquity, Paul stated quite firmly, “Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, OR OF THE SABBATH DAYS: which are a SHADOW of things to come; but the body is of Christ.”

Wrong! As already stated, none of the ten commandments of God are being addressed in the above scriptures. What happened to your concern for context? You know there are sabbath days apart from God’s fourth commandment sabbath. Why do you apply these sabbath days to that day, when the ten commandments are not being addressed at all? When convenient you brought up the other sabbath days Israel observed during the old covenant as being included in the prophecy of Isaiah, now you discard them when they do not suit your purposes or argument. In the above scriptures which refer to sabbath days, you wish to imply God’s sabbath day. When addressing the prophecy of Isaiah however, you imply sabbath days when it simply says sabbath to sabbath.

The NT addresses many changes from the old to the new covenant. The Ten Commandments however, are held up as the standard right up to the last book and chapter of it. This you and all others who argue against the keeping of God’s fourth commandment ignore or argue against. The word of God though, is truth, though all men be liars.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.


The saints of the new covenant era, keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony and faith of Jesus Christ who Himself perfectly kept the commandments of God as our living example and Lord.

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These were shadows of some things that were ABOUT TO COME in Paul’s day.  The Greek word used here is “Mellonton”, indicating the soon arrival of the shadows’ fulfillment.  And CHRIST was the substance of their fulfillment, as Paul said.

Yes the sabbath days which Israel kept apart from the fourth commandment of God were shadows. The ten commandments of God, as I have just showed you from scripture, are what the saints of the new covenant keep. They do this by way of the teachings and living example provided by their Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Mt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

According to the above words of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, you will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. You can change this if you wish to though, at any time.

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True to this prophecy, Christ did indeed return on a SABBATH DAY - on PENTECOST DAY in AD 70, to be exact.  This is why the people were once commanded in Ezekiel 46:3 to worship at the Eastern Gate of Zerubbabel’s rebuilt temple ON THE SABBATH DAY AND THE NEW MOON, because Christ was going to return bodily at that location and at that time on the calendar.

I don’t think so.
« Last Edit: Sun Jul 26, 2020 - 18:07:02 by Amo »

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: Mark Of The Beast (on the hand)
« Reply #18 on: Sun Jul 26, 2020 - 19:46:31 »
Hey Amo,

Your perception of what the New Heavens  and New Earth are composed of doesn’t tally with the way Isaiah presented them.  The prophet included in Is. 65:17-25, as part of the NHNE experience, the death of both sinners and righteous people, the birth of offspring, prayers to the Father, harvesting crops, and building houses.  All of which are not done in the eternal state, but are realities today under the ages of the New Covenant.

Hebrews 12:26 -27 spoke specifically of when those old heavens and the earth were going to be shaken and removed, and it was going to be that generation who would experience this (“...but NOW hath He promised...”).  God never said He was going to annihilate the heavens and the planet earth at that time; only that He was going to CHANGE them (“...as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed...Heb. 1:12).

It is God’s prerogative to change the order of things and His own law, which He did along with the establishment of Christ’s high priesthood (Heb. 7:12) and by giving the promise of the Holy Spirit to tabernacle within each of His saints.   This is the fulfillment of entering into the true Sabbath rest, as Hebrews 4:3 taught.  Believing is a sign that we have “ceased from our own works, as God did from His.” (Heb. 4:10).

For Jesus to say that not one jot or tittle of the law would pass away until all was fulfilled, this speaks of His ability to preserve His written words for all generations to read and study. It does not necessarily mean that the way the weekly Sabbath is observed has not changed under the New Covenant.

Under OT law for the Sabbath, the gates of Jerusalem were shut for the Sabbath day.  But in the New Jerusalem which we occupy now, as part of the blessing of the New Covenant, the gates of THIS New Jerusalem city are NEVER SHUT (Rev.21:25).  Worship does not cease in this New Jerusalem city, because our Sabbath rest in Christ is a continual state for us...not merely reserved for the one symbolic 7th day of the week alone that prefigured Christ’s work on our behalf.

So yes, in the true sense of the Sabbath, I do worship on Saturday...and also Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday as well.

Offline Rella

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Re: Mark Of The Beast (on the hand)
« Reply #19 on: Mon Jul 27, 2020 - 14:41:29 »
3 Resurrections and Amo,

I wish you would take this Sabbath on which day debate down another leg of argument.

I will stay out of this... but why dont you two hash out how the current
system of how we got to our current system of Sunday thru Saturday to begin with.

There is no arguement that God commanded the 7th day to be the Sabbath. But

IT was not because God decided Saturday at sundown to declare...Let there be light after spending a day hovering over His creation of heavens and earth an observing  the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, as the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

No... He declared Let there be light in His own time and I believe without a thought to a day or conscious thought of time for time is non existent to God.

What we do not know is if God had a name for the actual days he worked on the creation.

How can we know that it was,in fact, Saturday at Sundown that God was floating above the waters and was not somehow maybe Tuesday?

We know... The Babylonians named the days after the five planetary bodies known to them (Tuesday through Saturday) and after the Sun and Moon (Sunday and Monday). This custom was later adopted by the Romans. And got incorporated by the Jewish slaves under Babylonian control.

As I recall the Babylonian calendar came into being about 500 BC, give or take a month here or there.....

But there is more to it then that...

Now this excerpt from the following links explains the why for why the Jewish people celebrate the Sabbath as they do... or should.

"We were first commanded to keep Shabbat in the desert shortly after we left Egypt. How did we know when to keep it? In Exodus 16, we are told that during our journey in the desert, manna fell every day except for one—the Shabbat. So what did we eat then? A double portion fell every Friday so that we would have what to eat the next day as well. On the first Friday after the manna began to fall, the people were surprised to see so much manna—double that which they had received on each of the past five days. When they came to ask Moses about this phenomenon, he revealed that the next day would be the Shabbat and that no manna would fall at all.

The actual wording of G‑d's message to Moses and the Jewish People is "See that G‑d has given to you the Shabbat." The Midrash points out that the word used is "see" and not "know." It explains:

This is what G‑d was saying to them: "If the idolaters will come to you and ask, 'Why do you make the Shabbat day on this day?' you will tell them, 'See, the manna does not fall on the Shabbat.'"

For the next 40 years we had a weekly reminder of the Shabbat every time the manna did not fall. Since then, we have continued to keep count and will continue to do so for the rest of time.

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1103696/jewish/How-Do-We-Know-Which-Day-is-Shabbat.htm

But it does not explain how they knew when that first Friday/Saturday Sabbath actually occurred or if it truly was Friday/Saturday and not another day.

So any clarity from either of you would be greatly appreciated for all. ::tippinghat::








Offline Cobalt1959

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Re: Mark Of The Beast (on the hand)
« Reply #20 on: Sat Aug 01, 2020 - 03:23:01 »
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Hi Hobie,

I see you made an omission in your very first paragraph.  Ezekiel spoke of *PLURAL* SABBATHS.  This would indicate not just the weekly Sabbath, but also the seventh year Sabbath, and the Jubilee Sabbath year after the 49th year.  Indeed, Ezekiel very likely meant to include ALL the days of holy convocation for Israel, in which no work was to be done.

Why are you concentrating solely on the SINGLE weekly Sabbath day for your interpretation, when Ezekiel spoke of ALL the Sabbaths that Israel was once charged to observe?  This would then involve more than just a discussion of a Saturday versus Sunday debate.

With Hobie & Amo, just following the day is the only important thing.  Actually attempting to "keep" the Sabbath, in the actual meaning of the scripture they claim to stand on is not something that interests them at all.  It's just the day that's important.  They simply swap Sunday for Saturday as to when they go to church, and that's as far as an SDA goes when it comes to "keeping" the Sabbath.  They are certainly not avoiding all work, since they drive to church and do all kinds of other stuff that is actually forbidden on the Sabbath, all while claiming to "keep" it.  They cause everyone who has to work at a utility to provide electricity, and gas, and water to their church, as well as service people like the fire department, the police, and medical facilities to have to break the Sabbath so that they can drive to church on Saturday, but that's A-OK, since they are pretending to "keep." The Sabbath.  They can't offer a sacrifice at the Temple, so there is no way they are actually keeping the Sabbath.  But it's nice to be able to tell people you are trying to keep a defunct Mosaic law by simply going to church on Saturday instead of Sunday.

Amo isn't going to touch an explanation of the other Sabbaths.  If he discounts those, which he actually did in his answer to you, then he exposes the falseness of his, and SDA doctrine.  He does expose one particularly nasty component of SDA doctrine, however, and it needs to be pointed out.  Seventh Day Adventists are one of those replacement doctrines that thinks they replace the Jews/Israel as God's chosen people.  When God "restored" the gospel to the SDA church, He just decided to toss the Jews into the dust bin, and forget all about His promises to them, as both a people, and a nation, and now the SDA's get those perks.  Sweet deal, huh?  When you hear people using terms like "spiritual Israel," what they are actually saying is that their group replaces Israel.  Gentiles do not make up some mythical SDA "spiritual Israel."  Gentiles are grafted into Israel.  They don't replace it.  Amo thinks they do.  And he's dead wrong.

Offline Hobie

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Re: Mark Of The Beast (on the hand)
« Reply #21 on: Sat Aug 01, 2020 - 07:21:06 »
Before you start explaining your thoughts on this subject first you have to definitively prove the Bible translation you use is correct.

NKJV says Rev 13:16-18 16 He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads,

ON is simply not the same as IN.... And on could not even suggest representing the mind.

Lets look further

NIV 16 It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads,

KJV 16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

Tyndale 16 And he made all bothe smale and grett ryche and poore fre and bond to receave a marke in their right hondes or in their forheddes.

Weymouth: 16 And he causes all, small and great, rich and poor, free men and slaves, to have stamped upon them a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads,

Wycliff: 16 And he shall make all, small and great, rich and poor, free men and bondmen, to have a character, either mark, in their right hand, either in their foreheads [or in their foreheads];

Youngs literal ranslation: 16 And it maketh all, the small, and the great, and the rich, and the poor, and the freemen, and the servants, that it may give to them a mark upon their right hand or upon their foreheads,

Remember.... the Greeks had it first...

Greek interlinear: 16 And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor and the freeman and the slaves, that he may give to them a mark on the hand of them the right, or on the foreheads of them

https://www.logosapostolic.org/interlinear-nt/revelation/13.htm

1And among the oldest translations

Codex Sinaiticus : 16 And he causes all, small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark on their right hand, or on their forehead,

https://codexsinaiticus.org/en/manuscript.aspx?book=59&chapter=13&lid=en&side=r&verse=16&zoomSlider=0

You are overthinking it.

Offline Hobie

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Re: Mark Of The Beast (on the hand)
« Reply #22 on: Sat Aug 01, 2020 - 07:22:11 »
Hey there Amo,

You’d be hard put to it (since we are almost 6,000 years past Creation Week’s 7th day) to say with precision that today’s Saturday and Sunday are exactly the same in time as the original 6th and 7th day of Creation Week.  That being the case, I find it rather strange to see those so dogmatic about observing either one day of the other, since we can’t really be that precise as to those exact days in the calendar computations.  For all you know, the original 7th day is now falling on a Tuesday, or a Thursday, etc..

I see scripture giving the original 7th day of Creation Week some rather different significant meanings than what are traditionally put upon it. 

The 7th day when God rested from all His works was meant to prefigure the “rest” we have in Christ as the fulfillment of the Sabbath.  This means that not the slightest effort performed by mankind is needed or accepted for our salvation, because Christ fulfilled all the requirements necessary.  Not one so-called righteous work of ours is accepted to establish this “rest”...not a single one.  That explains the severity of Moses’ judgment on the man who merely picked up sticks on the Sabbath.  God was underscoring the fact that any works of mankind cannot provide this “rest”.

You want to isolate the meaning of the Sabbath to the mere observance of the 7th day, when there is SO much more than just ceasing to perform wage-earning activity for a 24-hour period.  Look a bit deeper than the surface.

Also, since Peter wanted to be certain the saints were aware in II Peter 3:8 of at least this one thing, he said that with the Lord, a day is the same as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.   Since we have  a total of seven 24-hour days in Creation Week, I believe Peter was teaching that fallen man’s history would last for a grand total of 7 thousand years from start to finish, before the eternal age begins. 

We are currently about to switch over into history’s last, 7th period of a thousand years.   Based on how scripture dates the end of the 4th millennium at Christ’s death and resurrection in AD 33, that would mean we are looking at the next millennium of human history starting in AD 2033, which will wrap up finally in AD 3033.

There has ALWAYS been an “Israel of God”, ever since the beginning of mankind.  The ETHNIC nation of Israel entrusted with the oracles of God only provided a sort of microcosm of that fact...that God had the prerogative of choosing from among the fallen nations of mankind those children of promise that would become His children of faith.  Not all those within ETHNIC Israel were of the TRUE Israel of God (Rom.9:6).

“The Lord knoweth them that are His.”
Check with the Jews, its the same.

Offline Hobie

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Re: Mark Of The Beast (on the hand)
« Reply #23 on: Sat Aug 01, 2020 - 07:30:27 »
Amo, if you do not know the exact day that Creation Week started (since you are basing your argument on Creation Week’s 7th day), then you can’t be dogmatic as to the particular day on the calendar that it falls on today. 

Neither you nor Hobie have answered why you are not emphasizing the OTHER SABBATHS...PLURAL...(besides the single weekly Sabbath day) that are ALL mentioned in Ezekiel 20:12.  To be consistent, you should also push for us to be observing those other Sabbaths as well. 

When are you going to be observing the “new moon” celebrations?  As you yourself have said already, these “new moons” are listed along with the Sabbath in Isaiah 66:23 as being contemporary with the “new heavens and the new earth” reality (which is a reality we are presently existing in under the ages of the New Covenant established by Christ. 

Actually, this Isaiah 66:23 verse says nothing at all about God’s people worshipping *ON* THE DAY of the Sabbath or the new moon either.  It says “FROM one new moon TO another, and FROM one Sabbath TO another shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord”.  This means in the NHNE reality, that DURING THE ENTIRE WEEK OR MONTH of days, God’s people would be worshipping Him NON-STOP.

You have also misapplied and misunderstood the context of Matthew 24:20, which you say proves that Christians are still to be observing the Sabbath day up until the Lord’s second coming.  All that verse says is that the disciples of Christ should pray that their flight out of Judea when they saw Jerusalem surrounded by armies would not be encumbered by the winter cold or by the Jews restricting their flight by having the gates of the city shut on the Sabbath day, preventing their hurried escape to the mountains.  This verse says absolutely nothing about the disciples themselves being commanded to observe the Jewish Sabbath. 

Such observation was optional - not commanded - in the days when the Apostle Paul wrote Colossians 2:16-17.  To stifle such debate over whether or not the Sabbath should be observed as the Jews had done from antiquity, Paul stated quite firmly, “Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, OR OF THE SABBATH DAYS: which are a SHADOW of things to come; but the body is of Christ.”

These were shadows of some things that were ABOUT TO COME in Paul’s day.  The Greek word used here is “Mellonton”, indicating the soon arrival of the shadows’ fulfillment.  And CHRIST was the substance of their fulfillment, as Paul said. 

True to this prophecy, Christ did indeed return on a SABBATH DAY - on PENTECOST DAY in AD 70, to be exact.  This is why the people were once commanded in Ezekiel 46:3 to worship at the Eastern Gate of Zerubbabel’s rebuilt temple ON THE SABBATH DAY AND THE NEW MOON, because Christ was going to return bodily at that location and at that time on the calendar.
You must first understand the importance of the Sabbath, it was made by the Creator for man, and the maker of heaven and earth will not change it or substitute it. But did God know that this attempt to change His holy Sabbath would occur:

 "And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. " Daniel 7:25

 "Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them." Acts 20:28-30

God predicted long ago that, from within the church itself, there would arise men who would attempt to change His holy law. So the prophecy was true, and it has come to fruition as the Sabbath and those who kept it were swept away, and a substitute put in. And the church which brought it in boast it as its mark of authority.

"All of us believe many things in regard to religion that we do not find in the Bible. For example, nowhere in the Bible do we find that Christ or the Apostles ordered that the Sabbath be changed from Saturday to Sunday. We have the commandment of God given to Moses to keep holy the Sabbath Day, that is the 7th day of the week, Saturday. Today most Christians keep Sunday because it has been revealed to us by the Church outside the Bible." The Catholic Virginian, "To Tell You The Truth,” Vol. 22, No. 49 (Oct. 3, 1947).

 "... you may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify." The Faith of Our Fathers, by James Cardinal Gibbons, Archbishop of Baltimore, 88th edition, page 89. Originally published in 1876, republished and Copyright 1980 by TAN Books and Publishers, Inc., pages 72-73.

 'Deny the authority of the Church and you have no adequate or reasonable explanation or justification for the substitution of Sunday for Saturday in the Third - Protestant Fourth - Commandment of God... The Church is above the Bible, and this transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact.'' Catholic Record, September 1, 1923.

 "But since Saturday, not Sunday, is specified in the Bible, isn't it curious that non-Catholics who profess to take their religion directly from the Bible and not the Church, observe Sunday instead of Saturday? Yes, of course, it is inconsistent; but this change was made about fifteen centuries before Protestantism was born, and by that time the custom was universally observed. They have continued the custom, even though it rests upon the authority of the Catholic Church and not upon an explicit text in the Bible. That observance remains as a reminder of the Mother Church from which the non-Catholic sects broke away - like a boy running away from home but still carrying in his pocket a picture of his mother or a lock of her hair." The Faith of Millions

 "Perhaps the boldest thing, the most revolutionary change the Church ever did, happened in the first century. The holy day, the Sabbath, was changed from Saturday to Sunday. "The Day of the Lord" (dies Dominica) was chosen, not from any directions noted in the Scriptures, but from the Church's sense of its own power. The day of resurrection, the day of Pentecost, fifty days later, came on the first day of the week. So this would be the new Sabbath. People who think that the Scriptures should be the sole authority, should logically become 7th Day Adventists, and keep Saturday holy." Sentinel, Pastor's page, Saint Catherine Catholic Church, Algonac, Michigan, May 21, 1995

 'If Protestants would follow the Bible, they would worship God on the Sabbath Day. In keeping the Sunday they are following a law of the Catholic Church.' Albert Smith, Chancellor of the Archdiocese of Baltimore, replying for the Cardinal, in a letter dated February 10, 1920.

 'It is well to remind the Presbyterians, Baptists, Methodists, and all other Christians, that the Bible does not support them anywhere in their observance of Sunday. Sunday is an institution of the Roman Catholic Church, and those who observe the day observe a commandment of the Catholic Church.'Priest Brady, in an address, reported in the Elizabeth, NJ on March 18, 1903. This Rock

 'Of course these .. quotations are exactly correct. The Catholic Church designated Sunday as the day for corporate worship and gets full credit or blame ' This Rock,The Magazine of Catholic Apologetics and Evangelization, p.8, June 1997

 'The observance of Sunday by the Protestants is homage they pay, in spite of themselves, to the authority of the [Catholic] Church.' Monsignor Louis Segur, 'Plain Talk about the Protestantism of Today';, p. 213.

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: Mark Of The Beast (on the hand)
« Reply #24 on: Sat Aug 01, 2020 - 11:21:24 »
Hi Hobie,

I know you would like to think that Daniel 7:25 ”changing times and laws” speaks about this Saturday vs. Sunday debate, but it actually has nothing at all to do with it.

To “CHANGE TIMES AND LAWS” is a phrase Daniel had already used earlier in his book.  Look at Daniel 2:21.  After receiving from God a night vision about the King’s dream and its meaning, Daniel praised the God of heaven, saying “Blessed be the name of God for ever and ever: for wisdom and might are His: AND HE CHANGETH THE TIMES AND SEASONS:” (And just what does that mean?  The next phrase gives a parallel description of what it means.). “HE REMOVETH KINGS AND SETTETH UP KINGS...”

So it would appear that to “CHANGE TIMES AND SEASONS” (plural - not a single day of the week) is to have the power to set up those in positions of power over nations.

Jesus also referred to this same power over the nations and their rulers in Acts 1:7.  After the disciples asked if Christ was going to restore the kingdom to the Israel, He told them “It is not for you to know the TIMES AND THE SEASONS, which the Father hath put in His own power.”  Same thing Daniel was saying.

The Apostle Paul told the Athenians the very same thing in Acts 17:26.  God, he said “hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined THE *TIMES* BEFORE APPOINTED, and the bounds of their habitation.”  This testified of God’s prerogative to pre-arrange the duration of kingdoms and peoples, and the physical borders of nations as He determines ahead of time. 

So Hobie, you might question what this has to do with the Little Horn on the 4th Beast “changing LAWS”?  This Little Horn would only prevail in war against the saints for 3 and 1/2 YEARS from start to finish, as well as trying to “change times (plural) and laws (plural)” during his dominion, which would be  consumed and destroyed utterly at the close of those 3-1/2 years. 

This little horn on the Roman Beast is the Emperor Nero, who historically waged a war of persecution against the Christians for 3-1/2 years after the great fire at Rome in AD 64 until shortly before his suicide in AD 68.  God allowed Nero to do this for a very specific reason. 

Nero most definitely had a hand in trying to “change the times” by setting up and removing kings during his reign as emperor.  One of the “laws” Nero broke was to break the treaty of alliance and friendship which the Roman republic had confirmed several times with Israel long ago, beginning under Maccabean times. Once the AD 66 Zealot rebellion broke out, Nero was obligated to break that treaty and declare open war on Israel.

So Hobie, I’m afraid you can’t hijack this Daniel 7:25 verse and use it as proof in the Saturday versus Sunday debate.


If you wonder what scriptural “authorization” we can use to honor the day after the Sabbath, there is this verse in Ps. 118:24.  This text speaks of the anticipated day of Christ’s resurrection when the risen Christ, the “stone rejected by the builders” would become the “head stone of the corner” (a resurrection which we know from Matt. 28:1 had occurred in the evening at the start of the first day of the week after the end of the Sabbath).

Ps. 118:24 speaks of this establishment of Christ as that head of the corner on the morning just after His evening resurrection, saying “THIS is the Lord’s doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes.  THIS IS THE DAY which the Lord hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.”

THIS resurrection day is the same “DAY” that Abraham rejoiced to see prophetically revealed to him by God in John 8:56. 

The Sabbath day may represent and typify  rest to us, but the first day of the week when Christ established the New Covenant in His blood by offering it to God in heaven represents NEW LIFE and a new beginning for us.  Why should we not honor that New Covenant in His blood?  The Lord’s Supper is not the only way we can honor that New Covenant.

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Re: Mark Of The Beast (on the hand)
« Reply #25 on: Sat Aug 08, 2020 - 17:06:22 »
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Hey Amo,

Your perception of what the New Heavens  and New Earth are composed of doesn’t tally with the way Isaiah presented them.  The prophet included in Is. 65:17-25, as part of the NHNE experience, the death of both sinners and righteous people, the birth of offspring, prayers to the Father, harvesting crops, and building houses.  All of which are not done in the eternal state, but are realities today under the ages of the New Covenant.

Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. 18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. 19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. 20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed. 21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them. 22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands. 23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them. 24  And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear. 25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

There is no new heavens and new earth. We still remember and live upon the same earth the Jews of Isaiah’s day lived upon. The existing Jerusalem was not created by God and is not in a state of continual rejoicing. There is still much weeping and crying and death in Jerusalem and the world. Neither the Jews or anyone else are living lives as long as those of trees, which if I am not mistaken can be thousands of years. Israel itself did not even exist again until the mid 1900’s and the people within it are in a constant state of threat or war from their enemies all around them. Wolves and lambs don’t feed together, lions don’t eat straw, and people and animals all still hurt and destroy each other. Countless peoples including the Jews have built homes and planted and had their homes and vineyards taken from them or destroyed since the time of Christ. Not to mention being wrongly imprisoned, tortured, cut off from societies, enslaved, murdered, burned at the stake, and on and on since the time of Christ. Millions of Christians included.

 And you want everyone to believe the above prophecy is in relation to the establishment of the new covenant in Christ Jesus. Jerusalem itself was destroyed by the Romans after Christ established the new covenant in His blood. Suffering horribly during the seizure with starvation even to the point of mothers eating their children, and murdering each other for what food there was. Being slaughtered afterward by the Roman armies in the destruction of their city and temple. To suggest that all such is part of the vision of Isaiah above concerning the new covenant era, is asinine. Why would you declare such for this new covenant era when our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ told us to expect the following, and was proved right throughout history since then.

Mt 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? 4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. 9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Do Isaiah and Christ actually so contradict each others testimony concerning this new covenant era, or is what you have chosen to believe wrong?

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Hebrews 12:26 -27 spoke specifically of when those old heavens and the earth were going to be shaken and removed, and it was going to be that generation who would experience this (“...but NOW hath He promised...”).  God never said He was going to annihilate the heavens and the planet earth at that time; only that He was going to CHANGE them (“...as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed...Heb. 1:12).

Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. 25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven: 26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. 27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. 28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: 29 For our God is a consuming fire.

Why would you assume the above is only addressing things being shaken in a spiritual sense, and not a literal one as well, seeing that the verse itself refers to the voice of God literally shaking the earth in the past. The scriptures also refer to His voice doing so again in the future when this entire world will be destroyed at His presence, and eventually by fire I might add.

Isa 2:12 For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low: 13  And upon all the cedars of Lebanon, that are high and lifted up, and upon all the oaks of Bashan, 14 And upon all the high mountains, and upon all the hills that are lifted up, 15 And upon every high tower, and upon every fenced wall, 16 And upon all the ships of Tarshish, and upon all pleasant pictures. 17 And the loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be made low: and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day. 18 And the idols he shall utterly abolish. 19  And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth. 20 In that day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats; 21 To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.


Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. 10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. 11  And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. 12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir. 13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

Isa 24:17 Fear, and the pit, and the snare, are upon thee, O inhabitant of the earth. 18 And it shall come to pass, that he who fleeth from the noise of the fear shall fall into the pit; and he that cometh up out of the midst of the pit shall be taken in the snare: for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake. 19 The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly. 20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again. 21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth. 22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited. 23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

Eze 38:18And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that my fury shall come up in my face. 19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel; 20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.[/b 21 And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother. 22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone. 23 Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD.

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Nah 1:2God is jealous, and the LORD revengeth; the LORD revengeth, and is furious; the LORD will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies. 3 The LORD is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked: the LORD hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet. 4 He rebuketh the sea, and maketh it dry, and drieth up all the rivers: Bashan languisheth, and Carmel, and the flower of Lebanon languisheth. 5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein. 6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him. 7 The LORD is good, a strong hold in the day of trouble; and he knoweth them that trust in him. 8 But with an overrunning flood he will make an utter end of the place thereof, and darkness shall pursue his enemies.

Mt 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. 37 He answered and said unto them,
He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

2Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


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It is God’s prerogative to change the order of things and His own law, which He did along with the establishment of Christ’s high priesthood (Heb. 7:12) and by giving the promise of the Holy Spirit to tabernacle within each of His saints.   This is the fulfillment of entering into the true Sabbath rest, as Hebrews 4:3 taught.  Believing is a sign that we have “ceased from our own works, as God did from His.” (Heb. 4:10).

Truth and error mixed together as in the above expressed opinion, equals error alone. Yes it is God’s prerogative to change His law, and or abolish His sabbath as He wishes. The scriptures however do not teach anywhere that He has done so, but through the avenue of fulfilling or completing the meaning and or purpose of the same. Which changes the New Testament does address and define. Such as those changes you have referred to in the above referring to the book of Hebrews.

All the laws related to the literal temple and sacrifices are done away through fulfillment. Jesus Christ saving humanity in and though the blood of the true LAMB OF GOD, Himself, ended the need for all animal sacrifices, and a literal temple though which to officiate such. They are no more according to the will of God. The temple of God is now within the individual believer, and the corporate body of believers in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, His church, as the New Testament scriptures plainly state. Thus do we know that the ceremonial laws pertaining to the literal temple of literal Israel are no longer to be kept, though many still have applicable spiritual meaning and lessons. The literal theocratical nation of Israel is no more, having been replaced with all who are in Christ Jesus the founder of both literal Israel of the old covenant and spiritual Israel of the new covenant. The civil laws which applied to the literal theocratical nation of Israel are no more as the nation itself is no more. Paul and the apostles addressed many of the changes due to this reality.

The ten commandments of God however, are held up as a continuing standard until the last book and chapter of the New Testament, which book addresses the history of this world up until its last moments. Anyone therefore who attempts to change them or declares that they have been changed, assumes a prerogative of God alone, and is therefore unquestionably anti-christ. They are declaring and attempting to establish that which our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ specifically stated He did not come to do.

Mt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

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For Jesus to say that not one jot or tittle of the law would pass away until all was fulfilled, this speaks of His ability to preserve His written words for all generations to read and study. It does not necessarily mean that the way the weekly Sabbath is observed has not changed under the New Covenant.

If that was all He said, then perhaps the particular verses you are referring to could be taken as such. This would however, not detract from other NT scriptures which admonish us to keep the commandments, as already stated up to the last book and chapter of scripture. Nevertheless, that is not all He said in the scriptures you referenced. Immediately after expressing what you referenced, He said, “Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” Which you apparently choose to ignore, so that you can believe and testify as you do. As is obvious, this does not change the testimony of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ concerning the fact that He did not come to change any of God’s (His) commandments, but rather to establish them as His apostle Paul declared(Rom 3:20-21, 8:1-11, 1 Cor 7:17-20). Our Lord who established this new covenant declared that during it, those who break the commandments and teach others to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, and those who seek to keep them and teach them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Here we are to this very day, proclaiming one or the other just as our Lord predicted above.

God’s sabbath was established at creation before there was ever a need for anything like an old and new covenant, in a perfect world. After the fall and eventual destruction of the former world because of rampant evil, God chose a man of demonstrable faith of whom He declared, “Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.”, to become the father of a nation of that same faith to represent Him in this world. To which nation He entrusted the observance if His sacred sabbath and commandments which He spoke to the nation with His own voice and wrote with His own finger. Declaring a blessing upon them if they would keep His sabbath and commandments, and even declaring a blessing upon all who would keep His sabbath during this same old covenant period. Nevertheless, they continually fell into apostasy and disregarded both, even eventually rejecting and crucifying their own Lord and Savior who had given them the sabbath and commandments. Which Lord and Savior also kept the commandments of God and observed His sabbath perfectly when here as one of us as our example, teaching all His followers to do the same. After which His apostles also taught the same and pointed all that would be saved to the life, teachings, and death of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ unto salvation. Which commandments and sabbath have been kept and taught by authentic Christianity throughout history until now. Finally biblical prophecy points to the observance of God’s sabbath even in the new heaven and new earth. This is the testimony of scripture, all of which you are now here to deny in your above arguments as our Lord Jesus Christ predicted. So be it.

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Under OT law for the Sabbath, the gates of Jerusalem were shut for the Sabbath day.  But in the New Jerusalem which we occupy now, as part of the blessing of the New Covenant, the gates of THIS New Jerusalem city are NEVER SHUT (Rev.21:25).  Worship does not cease in this New Jerusalem city, because our Sabbath rest in Christ is a continual state for us...not merely reserved for the one symbolic 7th day of the week alone that prefigured Christ’s work on our behalf.

So yes, in the true sense of the Sabbath, I do worship on Saturday...and also Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday as well.

More of the same deception you peddle. There is nothing wrong with applying and teaching the lessons there are regarding spiritual realities for the present spiritual kingdom of God established in Christ for this new covenant era. Your deception is revealed in teaching that these spiritual realities is all there is or will be, and denying the literal realities of what the church of Christ has, is, and will continue to suffer in this present fallen world. Spiritualizing away the literal kingdom of God which will be established when Christ returns, and denying the testimony of Christ, the prophets, and the apostles concerning both of the same.
 
We are not now living in the New Jerusalem depicted in Rev 21:25 now, as is most obvious for all seeking truth without itching ears or depicting what they wish to be, rather than what the scriptures plainly state. Nor is there any scripture anywhere which teaches that entering Christ’s rest means no more seventh day sabbath. To the contrary, its observance is a testimony in action that God alone sanctifies the believer, gives them rest, and is still in complete control regardless of present appearance. He created and sustains this world, and the observance of His sabbath is a sign that those who keep it understand their proper relation to Him, and reliance upon Him.

The sabbath does not just prefigure Christ’s work on our behalf concerning salvation, though it does include this. The sabbath is a rest and celebration of God’s creative power first in the creation of us and our world, and then necessarily in our creation as new creatures in Christ Jesus. Ignoring the day indicates ignoring the same, not establishing it.

Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day,to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

God created and sustains us to this day. The salvation from sin provided by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ who Himself declared Himself Lord of the sabbath, does not change this in any way shape or form. To the contrary, our creation as new creatures in Christ Jesus adds emphasis and purpose to the observance of God’s sabbath which it did not have before the fall.

Exo 31:12 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. 15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. 16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. 17  It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed. 18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.

The sabbath was given to Israel as a sign that God is the one who sanctifies them, just as the day is sanctified because He who alone can sanctify anything did so at creation. This is so important for humanity and especially God’s own to understand, that God commanded the death of all who would deny this truth by breaking the sabbath commandment. Just as all who reject God’s sanctification in and through our Lord Jesus Christ will perish in the lake of fire in the end. These truths have not been changed since the first coming of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, just as the command to observe God’s sabbath has not changed but to the contrary, has taken on greater significance since that time. Which is exactly why the evil one has so viciously attacked this particular commandment and day. It represents the God he despises, and the salvation He has provided for those whom the evil one himself has deceived and wishes to take down with him.

Rev 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. 8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. 19 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. 13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Heed the warning of the above three angels giving the message of the everlasting gospel. Worship your Creator and keep the commandments of God by the faith of your Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Including of course the very commandment given to commemorate the creation of this world and ourselves by Him, our salvation as creatures created in Christ Jesus, and sanctified by the word of God alone as His sabbath also is a sign of.

Joh 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. 18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

Choose to be sanctified through the truth of Christ’s words, who is the Lord of the sabbath.
« Last Edit: Sat Aug 08, 2020 - 17:21:33 by Amo »

Offline Amo

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Re: Mark Of The Beast (on the hand)
« Reply #26 on: Sat Aug 08, 2020 - 18:06:22 »
3 Resurrections and Amo,

I wish you would take this Sabbath on which day debate down another leg of argument.

I will stay out of this... but why dont you two hash out how the current
system of how we got to our current system of Sunday thru Saturday to begin with.

There is no arguement that God commanded the 7th day to be the Sabbath. But

IT was not because God decided Saturday at sundown to declare...Let there be light after spending a day hovering over His creation of heavens and earth an observing  the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, as the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

No... He declared Let there be light in His own time and I believe without a thought to a day or conscious thought of time for time is non existent to God.

What we do not know is if God had a name for the actual days he worked on the creation.

How can we know that it was,in fact, Saturday at Sundown that God was floating above the waters and was not somehow maybe Tuesday?

We know... The Babylonians named the days after the five planetary bodies known to them (Tuesday through Saturday) and after the Sun and Moon (Sunday and Monday). This custom was later adopted by the Romans. And got incorporated by the Jewish slaves under Babylonian control.

As I recall the Babylonian calendar came into being about 500 BC, give or take a month here or there.....

But there is more to it then that...

Now this excerpt from the following links explains the why for why the Jewish people celebrate the Sabbath as they do... or should.

"We were first commanded to keep Shabbat in the desert shortly after we left Egypt. How did we know when to keep it? In Exodus 16, we are told that during our journey in the desert, manna fell every day except for one—the Shabbat. So what did we eat then? A double portion fell every Friday so that we would have what to eat the next day as well. On the first Friday after the manna began to fall, the people were surprised to see so much manna—double that which they had received on each of the past five days. When they came to ask Moses about this phenomenon, he revealed that the next day would be the Shabbat and that no manna would fall at all.

The actual wording of G‑d's message to Moses and the Jewish People is "See that G‑d has given to you the Shabbat." The Midrash points out that the word used is "see" and not "know." It explains:

This is what G‑d was saying to them: "If the idolaters will come to you and ask, 'Why do you make the Shabbat day on this day?' you will tell them, 'See, the manna does not fall on the Shabbat.'"

For the next 40 years we had a weekly reminder of the Shabbat every time the manna did not fall. Since then, we have continued to keep count and will continue to do so for the rest of time.

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1103696/jewish/How-Do-We-Know-Which-Day-is-Shabbat.htm

But it does not explain how they knew when that first Friday/Saturday Sabbath actually occurred or if it truly was Friday/Saturday and not another day.

So any clarity from either of you would be greatly appreciated for all. ::tippinghat::


The Lord Jesus Christ who was and is the creator, and is the Lord of the sabbath as He Himself testified, would have corrected the day if it had been wrong when He came to show us the way. Instead He spent quite a bit of time teaching and addressing its proper observance. The day is correct. As far as your question concerning the change from Saturday to Sunday, go to the following link and read post reply # 32.

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/seventh-day-adventist-forum-(sda)/sabbath-sunday-and-the-abomination-of-desolation/

There are many books addressing the change from Sabbath to Sunday. The link provided gives some information on this rather extensive subject. The bottom line is that the change had and has nothing to do with scriptural teaching. It is wholly extra biblical.

Offline Amo

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Re: Mark Of The Beast (on the hand)
« Reply #27 on: Sat Aug 08, 2020 - 18:20:03 »
With Hobie & Amo, just following the day is the only important thing.  Actually attempting to "keep" the Sabbath, in the actual meaning of the scripture they claim to stand on is not something that interests them at all.  It's just the day that's important.  They simply swap Sunday for Saturday as to when they go to church, and that's as far as an SDA goes when it comes to "keeping" the Sabbath.  They are certainly not avoiding all work, since they drive to church and do all kinds of other stuff that is actually forbidden on the Sabbath, all while claiming to "keep" it.  They cause everyone who has to work at a utility to provide electricity, and gas, and water to their church, as well as service people like the fire department, the police, and medical facilities to have to break the Sabbath so that they can drive to church on Saturday, but that's A-OK, since they are pretending to "keep." The Sabbath.  They can't offer a sacrifice at the Temple, so there is no way they are actually keeping the Sabbath.  But it's nice to be able to tell people you are trying to keep a defunct Mosaic law by simply going to church on Saturday instead of Sunday.

Amo isn't going to touch an explanation of the other Sabbaths.  If he discounts those, which he actually did in his answer to you, then he exposes the falseness of his, and SDA doctrine.  He does expose one particularly nasty component of SDA doctrine, however, and it needs to be pointed out.  Seventh Day Adventists are one of those replacement doctrines that thinks they replace the Jews/Israel as God's chosen people.  When God "restored" the gospel to the SDA church, He just decided to toss the Jews into the dust bin, and forget all about His promises to them, as both a people, and a nation, and now the SDA's get those perks.  Sweet deal, huh?  When you hear people using terms like "spiritual Israel," what they are actually saying is that their group replaces Israel.  Gentiles do not make up some mythical SDA "spiritual Israel."  Gentiles are grafted into Israel.  They don't replace it.  Amo thinks they do.  And he's dead wrong.

What a bunch of twisted crap. The many posts on these threads over many years now completely contradict your above false witness and testimony. I worked for several years in law enforcement and emergency rescue, and the maintenance required for such on God's sabbath without ever breaking the same. It is lawful to do good on the sabbath as our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ taught. No one should excuse themselves from works of kindness, necessity, and emergency on the sabbath. Such would itself constitute a violation of the pure and holy purposes and intentions of the sabbath. Though there is nothing wrong with choosing a living that will not involve such situations, or moving on from one that does in order to observe the day undisturbed.

Offline DaveW

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Re: Mark Of The Beast (on the hand)
« Reply #28 on: Tue Aug 11, 2020 - 06:23:44 »
Hobie - i was looking at your OP and this passage came to mind:

 Deuteronomy 6:6-9
6 These words, which I am commanding you today, shall be on your heart. 7 You shall teach them diligently to your sons and shall talk of them when you sit in your house and when you walk by the way and when you lie down and when you rise up. 8 You shall bind them as a sign on your hand and they shall be as frontals on your forehead. 9 You shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.

That the mark of the beast was to be in the exact same place as where we are to have the commands of God bound onto us?

Offline Hobie

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Re: Mark Of The Beast (on the hand)
« Reply #29 on: Sat Aug 22, 2020 - 16:09:15 »
Hobie - i was looking at your OP and this passage came to mind:

 Deuteronomy 6:6-9
6 These words, which I am commanding you today, shall be on your heart. 7 You shall teach them diligently to your sons and shall talk of them when you sit in your house and when you walk by the way and when you lie down and when you rise up. 8 You shall bind them as a sign on your hand and they shall be as frontals on your forehead. 9 You shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.

That the mark of the beast was to be in the exact same place as where we are to have the commands of God bound onto us?
And we see the substitute being the Beast mark, of its authority and it clearly claims it.

 

     
anything