Author Topic: Mark of the Beast  (Read 523 times)

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Offline Hobie

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Mark of the Beast
« on: Tue Dec 10, 2019 - 05:23:57 »
Lets see what the Bible tells us of the Mark of the Beast in Revelation 14:
Revelation 14:9-11
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

In Revelation 14: 9-11, the Bible describes the terrible fate of those who receive the Mark of the Beast. In stark contrast, Revelation 14: 12 describes those who stand victorious with Jesus on Mount Zion:
Revelation 14: 12
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. 

Now lets look in Reveleation 7 to see what it shows of what happens with those who are sealed:
Revelation 7:1-3
1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

In Revelation 7: 1-3 an angel ascends from the east with the seal of the living God. This angel comes down from heaven and puts a seal on people's foreheads. Two classes are represented as we see. Those who receive the mark of the beast and eventually receive the plagues. Those who keep the commandments of God, who are sealed by the angel, and do not receive the plagues. We read in Isaiah the following:
Isaiah 8: 16
16 Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.

Therefore, the seal of God is contained in His law. The Bible teaches that the final issue will be over the seal of God as opposed to the mark of the beast.

The Mark of the Beast is his seal of authority, and that would be "a rule or order that it is obligatory to observe" which he has passed. This would include the Sabbath along with all the other changes he has made that he claims he has the authority to do so, as we see in Daniel 7:

Daniel 7:25
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws:

So it is a change of Gods seal of authority, which are his laws which have been with us since creation and were written out on the tablets of stone, by the Beast with false laws or rules of divine observance that are his seal of authority. We are charged to follow Gods truth not traditions or doctrines of men, and his commandments stand as Jesus said:

John 15:10
If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

We have to be careful that we not be turned by any man or his ideas from Gods truth:
Colossians 2:4-8
4 And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words.
5 For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.
6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
 

Colossians 2:18-22
18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?

The Sabbath is the "sign" of God's people, however a individual can be a Sabbath keeping Christian and still have the Mark of the Beast. How so, well by following it in its false practices of worship, which is really worship of the Beast. Lets look at the text closely...

Revelation 14:9-12
King James Version (KJV)
 9And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

 Worshiping on Sunday is a direct way of worshiping the Beast, but there are other ways which we must be careful to avoid, which opens the door to following the Beast power.



 

Offline Hobie

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Re: Mark of the Beast
« Reply #1 on: Tue Dec 10, 2019 - 05:26:44 »
Lets look closer at one verse here, Rev.14:12 'Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.'

We see the mark of the beast has to do with God's law, keeping His commandments. While the Sabbath is central in it, as a "sign" of his people who keep his law, the text in verse 10 says 'If any man worship the beast and his image' it leads to the mark of the beast.

This means an individual can be worshiping the beast in what it lays out as its 'holy days' and practices which can only be seen as worship to false pagan gods and idols. So we have to keep ourselves clear of anything that worships the Beast and its image.

Scripture shows us what the law is and how we need to follow it.

Hebrews 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

Deep into our hearts it should go and be understood, not a surface understanding..

Even the Catholic church admits it 'superimposed' holy days on pagan feasts, but justify it by saying the the pagan connections to them ceased and the holy day became 'thoroughly Christian'. How do you make pagan worship 'thoroughly Christian'?

Offline Hobie

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Re: Mark of the Beast
« Reply #2 on: Tue Dec 10, 2019 - 05:31:03 »
Now lets look at the seal in Isaiah 8:16 "Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples."

A seal was something that held fast and in this context was binded up.

Deuteronomy 6:2,8 That you might fear the LORD your God, to keep all his statutes and his commandments, which I command you....And you shall bind them for a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes.

and we see it will be a sign...

Exodus 13:9 And it shall be for a sign unto thee upon thine hand, and for a memorial between thine eyes, that the Lord's law may be in thy mouth.

Exodus 31:13,17 Truly My Sabbaths you shall keep: for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations; that you may know that I am the Lord that does sanctify you....It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel for ever.

 and it is forever. But look at what do you do on the Sabbath, can we say 'worship' God.

The Mark of the Beast is about keeping of God's law especially worship, same as it always has been, and the Sabbath is at the center.

Offline Hobie

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Re: Mark of the Beast
« Reply #3 on: Tue Dec 10, 2019 - 05:36:50 »
Here is a great explanation on this false doctrine I came across...
"Some people are taught to deal with their guilt by placing confidence in the doctrine of "purgatory." I suppose you could compare it to a student working on a project to gain "extra credit" to make up for some bad grades. Unfortunately, the doctrine of purgatory provides false hope because it is based not in fact, but in fantasy. The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines purgatory as a "purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven," and is for those who are said to be going to heaven but are nevertheless "still imperfectly purified." (CCC 1030) According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, purgatory is "a place or condition of temporal punishment" for a Christian after death. The punishment and purification process in purgatory is said to "purge" away certain sins that still require cleansing.

So what's the problem with this theory? Well, the problem is that this doctrine is not rooted in Scripture. "
https://www.christianpost.com/voice/why-purgatory-is-a-dangerous-doctrine.html

Offline beam

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Re: Mark of the Beast
« Reply #4 on: Tue Dec 10, 2019 - 08:03:58 »
You hit the nail on the head when you quoted Jn15:10  John 15:10If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

What is that really telling us Hobie?  Well, it is telling me that Jesus kept the laws of the Sinai covenant  and if Christians really love Jesus we will keep Jesus commandments.  What commands did Jesus ask us to keep?  1Jn3:19-24 sums that question quite nicely.   Jesus is God and we are to keep His commandments.  His commands are to believe and love others as he loves us. 

All you are doing with your posts is trying to assert that John in Rev. is referring to keeping the Sabbath.  If that was what he meant then I am sure he would have made it very clear.  The fact is the SDAs are adding their own thoughts to his writings.
« Last Edit: Mon Dec 16, 2019 - 08:14:25 by beam »

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Re: Mark of the Beast
« Reply #4 on: Tue Dec 10, 2019 - 08:03:58 »



Offline Amo

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Re: Mark of the Beast
« Reply #5 on: Fri Dec 13, 2019 - 11:04:21 »
You hit the nail on the head when you quoted Jn15:10  John 15:10If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

What is that really telling us Hobie?  Well, it is telling me that Jesus kept the laws of the Sinai covenant  and if Christians really love Jesus we will keep Jesus commandments.  What commands did Jesus ask us to keep?  !Jn3:19-24 sums that question quite nicely.   Jesus is God and we are to keep His commandments.  His commands are to believe and love others as he loves us. 

All you are doing with your posts is trying to assert that John in Rev. is referring to keeping the Sabbath.  If that was what he meant then I am sure he would have made it very clear.  The fact is the SDAs are adding their own thoughts to his writings.


Same old same old. Jesus who is one with the Father, has different commandments than the Father. Jesus telling us to love God first and foremost and our neighbor as ourselves in this new covenant equals no more ten commandments. This even though Jesus and the Father said the same thing over and over again to Israel in direct connection with the ten commandments. Back then it meant we should keep them, now of course according to beam, it means we should ignore them because they are no longer. Yea, that's the ticket. Never mind the following word's of Jesus, He just made a mistake when He said them, right beam?

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. 21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire........................................ .................
27  Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.


Oh yea, Jesus' words above make it so obvious that the commandments are no more according to beam theology. Paul straightened Jesus out on this one beam, didn't he? If it weren't for Paul we wouldn't know Jesus was wrong about the above would we?

Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) 16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. 12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. 13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

1 Cor 7:17 Only, let each one live the life which the Lord has assigned him, and to which God has called him [for each person is unique and is accountable for his choices and conduct, let him walk in this way]. This is the rule I make in all the churches. 18 Was anyone at the time of his calling [from God already] circumcised? He is not to become uncircumcised. Has anyone been called while uncircumcised? He is not to be circumcised. 19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is keeping the commandments of God.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.


On the other hand, maybe Paul is somewhat confused on the issue. Or perhaps, could it be, that beam is the one who is confused?

Rev 14:12  Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 22:14  Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.


So be it.

Offline beam

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Re: Mark of the Beast
« Reply #6 on: Mon Dec 16, 2019 - 09:55:34 »
Same old same old. Jesus who is one with the Father, has different commandments than the Father. Jesus telling us to love God first and foremost and our neighbor as ourselves in this new covenant equals no more ten commandments. This even though Jesus and the Father said the same thing over and over again to Israel in direct connection with the ten commandments. Back then it meant we should keep them, now of course according to beam, it means we should ignore them because they are no longer. Yea, that's the ticket. Never mind the following word's of Jesus, He just made a mistake when He said them, right beam?

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. 21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire........................................ .................
27  Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.


Oh yea, Jesus' words above make it so obvious that the commandments are no more according to beam theology. Paul straightened Jesus out on this one beam, didn't he? If it weren't for Paul we wouldn't know Jesus was wrong about the above would we?

Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) 16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. 12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. 13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

1 Cor 7:17 Only, let each one live the life which the Lord has assigned him, and to which God has called him [for each person is unique and is accountable for his choices and conduct, let him walk in this way]. This is the rule I make in all the churches. 18 Was anyone at the time of his calling [from God already] circumcised? He is not to become uncircumcised. Has anyone been called while uncircumcised? He is not to be circumcised. 19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is keeping the commandments of God.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.


On the other hand, maybe Paul is somewhat confused on the issue. Or perhaps, could it be, that beam is the one who is confused?

Rev 14:12  Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 22:14  Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.


So be it.
Gal4: 21Tell me (Amo), you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says?

Gal5:18 if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

Are you led by the Spirit Amo?  If you are then why are you thumping the Law?

2Cor3: 6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant – not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Do you have any idea what that verse means Amo?   The letter is the letter of the Law.  The Spirit is the gift of Jesus that dwells in us replacing the letter of the old covenant that was written on stone.  The Spirit is pure love and does not teach Christians to keep feast days, new moons and weekly Sabbaths.  All of those were for only Israel.  Verse 8 says: 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, (the letter) how much more glorious is the ministry (Holy Spirit) that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!

There is no verse in all that you posted that tells us we are under the Sinai covenant 's laws.  Sure they were Holy and good.  Sure that was what God had planned for them.  Keeping all of the commandments in the old covenant would not save one soul.  Just how did you get on the path you are on?

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Re: Mark of the Beast
« Reply #7 on: Mon Dec 16, 2019 - 10:26:03 »
  Keeping all of the commandments in the old covenant would not save one soul.  Just how did you get on the path you are on?
If one kept all of the commandments then one would not have sinned and therefore would not even need to be saved.

Offline beam

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Re: Mark of the Beast
« Reply #8 on: Mon Dec 16, 2019 - 19:53:45 »
Same old same old. Jesus who is one with the Father, has different commandments than the Father. Jesus telling us to love God first and foremost and our neighbor as ourselves in this new covenant equals no more ten commandments. This even though Jesus and the Father said the same thing over and over again to Israel in direct connection with the ten commandments. Back then it meant we should keep them, now of course according to beam, it means we should ignore them because they are no longer. Yea, that's the ticket. Never mind the following word's of Jesus, He just made a mistake when He said them, right beam?

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. 21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire........................................ .................
27  Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.


Oh yea, Jesus' words above make it so obvious that the commandments are no more according to beam theology. Paul straightened Jesus out on this one beam, didn't he? If it weren't for Paul we wouldn't know Jesus was wrong about the above would we?

Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) 16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. 12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. 13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

1 Cor 7:17 Only, let each one live the life which the Lord has assigned him, and to which God has called him [for each person is unique and is accountable for his choices and conduct, let him walk in this way]. This is the rule I make in all the churches. 18 Was anyone at the time of his calling [from God already] circumcised? He is not to become uncircumcised. Has anyone been called while uncircumcised? He is not to be circumcised. 19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is keeping the commandments of God.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.


On the other hand, maybe Paul is somewhat confused on the issue. Or perhaps, could it be, that beam is the one who is confused?

Rev 14:12  Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 22:14  Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.


So be it.

Gal 4: 21 Tell me (Amo), you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says?

Galatians 3:10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: ‘Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.’

Galatians 3:23 Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed.

Galatians 4:4 but when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law,

Galatians 4:5 to redeem those under the law, that we might receive adoption to sonship.

Galatians 4:21 Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says?

Galatians 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 

2Cor3:6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant – not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

2Cor 3:8-9 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness!

Offline Hobie

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Re: Mark of the Beast
« Reply #9 on: Wed Dec 18, 2019 - 09:14:05 »
Same old same old. Jesus who is one with the Father, has different commandments than the Father. Jesus telling us to love God first and foremost and our neighbor as ourselves in this new covenant equals no more ten commandments. This even though Jesus and the Father said the same thing over and over again to Israel in direct connection with the ten commandments. Back then it meant we should keep them, now of course according to beam, it means we should ignore them because they are no longer. Yea, that's the ticket. Never mind the following word's of Jesus, He just made a mistake when He said them, right beam?

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. 21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire........................................ .................
27  Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.


Oh yea, Jesus' words above make it so obvious that the commandments are no more according to beam theology. Paul straightened Jesus out on this one beam, didn't he? If it weren't for Paul we wouldn't know Jesus was wrong about the above would we?

Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) 16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. 12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. 13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

1 Cor 7:17 Only, let each one live the life which the Lord has assigned him, and to which God has called him [for each person is unique and is accountable for his choices and conduct, let him walk in this way]. This is the rule I make in all the churches. 18 Was anyone at the time of his calling [from God already] circumcised? He is not to become uncircumcised. Has anyone been called while uncircumcised? He is not to be circumcised. 19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is keeping the commandments of God.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.


On the other hand, maybe Paul is somewhat confused on the issue. Or perhaps, could it be, that beam is the one who is confused?

Rev 14:12  Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Yet some people have trouble understanding that...
Rev 22:14  Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.


So be it.

Offline beam

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Re: Mark of the Beast
« Reply #10 on: Thu Dec 19, 2019 - 06:35:07 »
Same old same old. Jesus who is one with the Father, has different commandments than the Father. Jesus telling us to love God first and foremost and our neighbor as ourselves in this new covenant equals no more ten commandments. This even though Jesus and the Father said the same thing over and over again to Israel in direct connection with the ten commandments. Back then it meant we should keep them, now of course according to beam, it means we should ignore them because they are no longer. Yea, that's the ticket. Never mind the following word's of Jesus, He just made a mistake when He said them, right beam?
Why are you chastising me with your rhetoric?  It was Jesus who made the distinction about the laws in Jn 15.  Jesus not only kept the 10, He abided by all of the Law, all of the 613 laws that would pertain to Him.  Why are you not abiding by all those Laws Amo.  Who gave Amo permission to cull hundreds of laws if he is indeed correct in his analysis???



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Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. 21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire........................................ .................
27  Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.


Oh yea, Jesus' words above make it so obvious that the commandments are no more according to beam theology. Paul straightened Jesus out on this one beam, didn't he? If it weren't for Paul we wouldn't know Jesus was wrong about the above would we?
Getting a little testy there ay Amo.  Remember what Jesus said in Jn15:  10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

I know you do not like Jesus words there or you would be repeating them all over the board.  You don't seem to even know what Jesus commandment to us means.  It means if I love my fellow man I will not commit adultery nor will kill or steal.  I will love my parents through thick and thin.  I will love God with all my heart and I will be willing to give my life to save others.  It means that I will do nothing to harm anyone.  It means that I will love others as Jesus loves me.  Find all that in the defunct 10.   Put love others as Jesus loves me in your pipe and smoke it for a spell Amo.

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Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) 16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
You paste verses and, i guess, and don't even bother to read them.  Gentiles did not have the law Amo, yet they had morality laws written in their hearts.  I write "morality because they certainly didn't have the sacrificial any ritual law like the weekly Sabbath and feast days written there.

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Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. 12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. 13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.


Gal4: 4But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law,

Gal 4:5 to redeem those under the law, that we might receive adoption to sonship.

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

1 Cor 7:17 Only, let each one live the life which the Lord has assigned him, and to which God has called him [for each person is unique and is accountable for his choices and conduct, let him walk in this way]. This is the rule I make in all the churches. 18 Was anyone at the time of his calling [from God already] circumcised? He is not to become uncircumcised. Has anyone been called while uncircumcised? He is not to be circumcised. 19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is keeping the commandments of God.

Gal3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

1Cor9: 20And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;

Gal3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

Gal4:21 Tell me (Amo), you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says?


Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.[/color]

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On the other hand, maybe Paul is somewhat confused on the issue. Or perhaps, could it be, that beam is the one who is confused?
I know Amo is!


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Rev 14:12  Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 22:14  Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Funny that none of the verses you have quoted with the word "commandments" have a 10 in front of them.  Funny that you keep quoting those as the 10 commandments after reading in 2Cor3:1-11 that the 10 commandments are done away KJV.

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So be it.
Yes Amo, so be it.

Offline Amo

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Re: Mark of the Beast
« Reply #11 on: Sat Dec 21, 2019 - 12:56:26 »
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Gal 4: 21 Tell me (Amo), you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says?

Galatians 3:10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: ‘Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.’

Galatians 3:23 Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed.

Galatians 4:4 but when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law,

Galatians 4:5 to redeem those under the law, that we might receive adoption to sonship.

Galatians 4:21 Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says?

Galatians 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 

2Cor3:6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant – not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

2Cor 3:8-9 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness!

Ah yes, the gospel of beam. The evil God of the old covenant gave us the evil law meant to bound and ensalve us until the Son of this evil God of old would come and deliver us from His evil Father and set us at liberty from the law of bondage which His Father had ensalved us with. The Son brought us love which the Father's law was void of. Now all can be saved apart from the law which condemned us, through the Son who broke the chains unto salvation in sin, deliverd from the salvation by law God the Father preached during the old covenant. Those poor souls had to be saved by keeping the law, praise God through Jesus we can now be saved apart from and even by breaking the law. Preach it brother beam. Tell the world how God the Father has changed so very much from that hateful evil slave Lord of the old covenant demanding perfect obedience to His evil overbearing law for salvation, to our new covenant peace and love salvation to all apart from the law through His Son, the lawless one unto salvation.

Oh wait, you still think there are commandments from Jesus we must keep if we want to be saved, don't you? What exactly are those commandments? If we have to keep them, how are they different that the ones of the old covenant? I guess it is just easier because there a fewer of them, right? What is up with Paul though, adding so much to the list in the following verses? I thought he was with you on this one.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32  Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

I count 23 no nos in verses 29-32. Looks like some have given up 10 for 23 according to your gospel. Of course the ten cover all 23 and much much more in principle. Then again, perhaps you do not agree with the above testimony from Paul. You are of course as selective with his testimony as all the rest of scripture. So be it.

None of the scriptures you quoted of course, are even in reference to the ten commandments of God. Those commandments are held up as the continued standard of righteousness until the final words of scripture. Jesus kept them and admonished all to do the same. He lived their principles in fallen human flesh, and has asked us all to pick up our crosses and follow Him. You simply continue to compound the laws specific to the literal nation of Israel during the old covenant, which the NT addresses as no longer binding, with the ten commandments because you have rejected the authority of one of them. If I am mistaken, please do tell us which of the ten can be broken today with impunity before God?

Just exactly why do you think God gave His law to Israel? What was wrong with the ten commandments, which demands they be done away with? Why did God so thoroughly establish that which He knew was not good enough to last and even bad enough top have too be done away with?




Offline Amo

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Re: Mark of the Beast
« Reply #12 on: Sat Dec 21, 2019 - 13:09:31 »
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Why are you chastising me with your rhetoric?  It was Jesus who made the distinction about the laws in Jn 15.  Jesus not only kept the 10, He abided by all of the Law, all of the 613 laws that would pertain to Him.  Why are you not abiding by all those Laws Amo.  Who gave Amo permission to cull hundreds of laws if he is indeed correct in his analysis???

More nonsense. I have never contended that any need keep 613 laws. Nor does Jesus commanding all to love one another in Jn 15 nullify the ten commandments in any way shape or form. He did the same to Israel repeatedly during the old covenant. You are the one who contends Jesus was referring to the 613 laws in Matt 5, not me. We have already gone though this at length. Jesus was referring to the ten commandments in Matt 5:17-19 as context reveals, and many other words from His own mouth recorded in scripture for us.

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Re: Mark of the Beast
« Reply #13 on: Sat Dec 21, 2019 - 13:26:34 »
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Getting a little testy there ay Amo.  Remember what Jesus said in Jn15:  10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
I know you do not like Jesus words there or you would be repeating them all over the board.  You don't seem to even know what Jesus commandment to us means.  It means if I love my fellow man I will not commit adultery nor will kill or steal.  I will love my parents through thick and thin.  I will love God with all my heart and I will be willing to give my life to save others.  It means that I will do nothing to harm anyone.  It means that I will love others as Jesus loves me.  Find all that in the defunct 10.   Put love others as Jesus loves me in your pipe and smoke it for a spell Amo.

Love entails telling people the truth. Nothing testy about it. If you take it as such, so be it. How very strange, the one arguing with me on another thread demanding that God's commandments have nothing to do with love, is now revealing the very opposite. You are one confused cookie beam. I am glad to see though, you basically admitting that God's commandments are all about love. They always have been.

I'm sorry you feel unloved because I'm telling you the truth. This is in your own head though, like so much else you impose upon others with the words you write on these boards. Now I don't like Jesus words you quoted because well, you said so. I don't think they mean what you imply they mean therefore I don't like them, is this the case beam? Or, I haven't posted them enough I guess to like them, according to more of the gospel of beam. Being agreed with by someone does not equal being loved someone. To the contrary, love is duty bound to point out dangerous error. Christ's own in this world will never be persecuted for agreeing with people in it. To the contrary, they have, are, and will continue to be persecuted because they love and care enough for people to tell them uncomfortable and inconvenient truths. Jesus was the demonstration of love in our flesh, but the world was so offended by Him that they persecuted, tortured, and crucified Him.

Love does not and has not ever nullified the commandments of God. Love is the fulfillment of the commandments of God.
« Last Edit: Sat Dec 21, 2019 - 13:29:21 by Amo »

Offline Amo

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Re: Mark of the Beast
« Reply #14 on: Sat Dec 21, 2019 - 13:38:46 »
Quote
You paste verses and, i guess, and don't even bother to read them.  Gentiles did not have the law Amo, yet they had morality laws written in their hearts.  I write "morality because they certainly didn't have the sacrificial any ritual law like the weekly Sabbath and feast days written there.

They have the law written upon their hearts beam. Just like the old covenant prophets predicted. You are right of course, the sacrificial laws and others pertaining to literal Israel are not being addressed in the above verses. The ten commandments which ascend above all others including those specific to literal Israel are being addressed. As is my continual contention concerning the law referred to in the NT which is still to be kept, not yours. Someone not agreeing with your assessment of certain scriptures does not equal them not reading it, but in your own mind apparently.

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Re: Mark of the Beast
« Reply #15 on: Sat Dec 21, 2019 - 13:44:59 »
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Funny that none of the verses you have quoted with the word "commandments" have a 10 in front of them.  Funny that you keep quoting those as the 10 commandments after reading in 2Cor3:1-11 that the 10 commandments are done away KJV.

Nothing funny about it. They either mean all the 613 laws you so often refer to, and we should all still be keeping them all, or they don't. If they do, then we of course have a big problem of major contradictions in scripture. If they don't, then what laws do they refer to. That would be those laws of course, which the NT has not pointed out as being changed. Which would be the ten commandments of God. Which is of course only a problem to those who reject such, or really just one of those commandments. So be it.

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Re: Mark of the Beast
« Reply #16 on: Sat Dec 21, 2019 - 14:20:24 »
More nonsense. I have never contended that any need keep 613 laws. Nor does Jesus commanding all to love one another in Jn 15 nullify the ten commandments in any way shape or form. He did the same to Israel repeatedly during the old covenant. You are the one who contends Jesus was referring to the 613 laws in Matt 5, not me. We have already gone though this at length. Jesus was referring to the ten commandments in Matt 5:17-19 as context reveals, and many other words from His own mouth recorded in scripture for us.
We had a problem mirror image like here with a poster in one of the other forums for SDA, and he made no bones about it, he was a Loyola adherent or straight out taken the oath...