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Offline Hobie

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Michael the Archangel “one who is God.
« on: December 19, 2011, 11:02:12 AM »
For some reason, the understanding of Christ pre-incarnate is very controversial, as people get confused with the "Title" which refer to Jesus. Now, Jesus is NOT a created Angel. He is fully Man, fully God, the Messiah, the Christ, and Lord and Saviour. Jesus is Eternal. Jesus was never created. Jesus is Eternal as the Father and Holy Spirit are Eternal. Jesus has always been and always will be.

Jesus is the angel of the LORD, the angel of God, the Archangel Michael, who appeared time and again in the Old Testament to speak directly to His people, prior to the incarnation.

Michael is just another "Title" to refer to Jesus just as Lamb and Lion is. Michael is not a created Angel. Michael the Archangel is only a name or title.

First let's look at the phrase 'angel of the LORD' in the story of Moses and the burning bush

Exodus 3:2
And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.


Now look at the following verses and who is identified as being in the bush?

Exo 3:4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.
Exo 3:6 Moreover he said,*I am* the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

Notice that the 'angel of the LORD' is really none other than God Himself and we have more...

Acts 7:29-31
King James Version (KJV)
29Then fled Moses at this saying, and was a stranger in the land of Madian, where he begat two sons.
30And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an angel of the Lord in a flame of fire in a bush.
31When Moses saw it, he wondered at the sight: and as he drew near to behold it, the voice of the LORD came unto him,

Then we have the following exchange...

Exodus 3:14
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

and who but Christ says this...

John 8:58
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM.

Jesus Christ had just identified Himself as the One who is the God of the Old Testament patriarchs, who was present in the burning bush speaking to Moses and the Jews knew exactly what Jesus meant as seen in what happens.

John 8:57-59
King James Version (KJV)
57Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2011, 11:12:18 AM by Hobie »

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Michael the Archangel “one who is God.
« on: December 19, 2011, 11:02:12 AM »

Offline Hobie

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Re: Michael the Archangel “one who is God.
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2011, 11:03:50 AM »
So we see that Jesus is the 'Angel of the Lord' and clearly is the great I AM, so now lets look at Michael the Archangel.

The name “Michael

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Re: Michael the Archangel “one who is God.
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2011, 11:03:50 AM »

Offline Hobie

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Re: Michael the Archangel “one who is God.
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2011, 11:04:56 AM »
Now Daniel was told by the angel Gabriel,“The angel prince of the kingdom of Persia opposed me for twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief angels, came to help me… Now I have to go back and fight the guardian angel of Persia. After that the guardian angel of Greece will appear. There is no one to help me except Michael, Israel’s guardian angel. He is responsible for helping and defending me.

Offline Hobie

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Re: Michael the Archangel “one who is God.
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2011, 11:06:01 AM »
The word “archangel

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Re: Michael the Archangel “one who is God.
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2011, 11:06:01 AM »

Offline Hobie

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Re: Michael the Archangel “one who is God.
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2011, 11:07:42 AM »
Jesus Christ is the preeminent Angel of the Lord, the Head, the Chief Messenger of God, and is called “the angel of his presence

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Re: Michael the Archangel “one who is God.
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2011, 11:07:42 AM »



Offline Hobie

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Re: Michael the Archangel “one who is God.
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2011, 11:08:53 AM »
Now lets look at the Second Coming, in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 it states that at the second coming the Lord shall descend with a shout, with the voice of the Archangel. If he shouts with a voice it must be his voice. The Lord is the Archangel. Furthermore, this voice raises the dead and only God can raise the dead.

Paul frequently refers to Jesus as `Lord' in 1 Corinthians in such a way as to identify him as, or equate him with, the Lord Jehovah of the Old Testament.... Paul says that Christians hope to be found `blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ '(1:8; see also 5:5), whereas the Old Testament spoke of that judgment day as the day of Jehovah (e.g., Joel 1:15; 2:1, 11, 31).... Paul's language clearly refers to Jesus as if he were Jehovah.

Thus Jehovah shows Himself in the position as leader of the angelic host at the day of judgement, or second coming the Lord. It all comes together, Michael represents the pre-existent Jesus in angelic form, the Lord of the Host, before He came down, and as the One who gave Himself for salvation after sin came in, He also in scripture reveals Himself as the Messiah or Christ, as seen in the Second Coming.

cs80918

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Re: Michael the Archangel “one who is God.
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2011, 12:05:26 PM »
No, you are mistaken Jesus is not Michael the Archangel.

The concept of Michael the Archangel being Jesus started in the 7th day church when the 7th day Adventist church was being founded, when they denied the deity of Jesus.


"For to which of the angels did He ever say, 'Thou art My Son, today I have begotten thee?'"  Hebrews 1:5

"But of the Son He says, 'Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever...'"
 Hebrews 1:8a


But to which of the angels has He ever said, 'Sit at My right hand, until I make Thine enemies a footstool for Thy feet?' Are they [the angels] not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation?"  Hebrews 1:13-14


« Last Edit: December 21, 2011, 01:23:40 PM by cs80918 »

Offline Hobie

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Re: Michael the Archangel “one who is God.
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2011, 08:14:41 AM »
No, you are mistaken Jesus is not Michael the Archangel.

The concept of Michael the Archangel being Jesus started in the 7th day church when the 7th day Adventist church was being founded, when they denied the deity of Jesus.


"For to which of the angels did He ever say, 'Thou art My Son, today I have begotten thee?'"  Hebrews 1:5

"But of the Son He says, 'Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever...'"
 Hebrews 1:8a


But to which of the angels has He ever said, 'Sit at My right hand, until I make Thine enemies a footstool for Thy feet?' Are they [the angels] not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation?"  Hebrews 1:13-14



Scripture clearly shows that Christ is God, the great I AM, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, Jehovah...but he also was the Angel of the Host, Michael the Arch Angel and there is no conflict here. This is his title when he threw out Satan and when he come to take the saints and put Satan away forever. Scripture shows this....

cs80918

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Re: Michael the Archangel “one who is God.
« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2011, 09:14:33 AM »
No, you are mistaken Jesus is not Michael the Archangel.

The concept of Michael the Archangel being Jesus started in the 7th day church when the 7th day Adventist church was being founded, when they denied the deity of Jesus.


"For to which of the angels did He ever say, 'Thou art My Son, today I have begotten thee?'"  Hebrews 1:5

"But of the Son He says, 'Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever...'"
 Hebrews 1:8a


But to which of the angels has He ever said, 'Sit at My right hand, until I make Thine enemies a footstool for Thy feet?' Are they [the angels] not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation?"  Hebrews 1:13-14



Scripture clearly shows that Christ is God, the great I AM, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, Jehovah...but he also was the Angel of the Host, Michael the Arch Angel and there is no conflict here. This is his title when he threw out Satan and when he come to take the saints and put Satan away forever. Scripture shows this....

Give me one verse in the bible that says "Jesus or Christ or God is Michael the Arch Angel"


Amo

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Re: Michael the Archangel “one who is God.
« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2011, 03:18:36 PM »
Quote
No, you are mistaken Jesus is not Michael the Archangel.

The concept of Michael the Archangel being Jesus started in the 7th day church when the 7th day Adventist church was being founded, when they denied the deity of Jesus.


"For to which of the angels did He ever say, 'Thou art My Son, today I have begotten thee?'"  Hebrews 1:5

"But of the Son He says, 'Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever...'"
 Hebrews 1:8a


But to which of the angels has He ever said, 'Sit at My right hand, until I make Thine enemies a footstool for Thy feet?' Are they [the angels] not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation?"  Hebrews 1:13-14

This belief did not originate with the SDA church.  Nor are they the only ones who make this connection.

The earlier Protestant scholars usually identified Michael with the preincarnate Christ, finding support for their view, not only in the juxtaposition of the "child" and the archangel in #Re 12, but also in the attributes ascribed to him in Daniel (for a full discussion see Hengstenberg, Offenbarung, I, 611-22, and an interesting survey in English by Dr. Douglas in Fairbairn’s BD).
John A. Lees (International Standard Bible Encyclopedia)

ARCHANGEL

This world is only twice used in the Bible, #1Th 4:16 Jude 1:9. In this last passage it is applied to Michael, who, in #Da 10:13,21 12:1, is described as having a special charge of the Jewish nation, and in #Re 12:7-9 as the leader of an angelic army. So exalted are the position and offices ascribed to Michael, that many think the Messiah is meant. ( American Tract Society Bible Dictionary)

The Rabbinical traditions about Michael are very numerous. They oppose him constantly to Sammael, the accuser and enemy of Israel, as disputing for the soul of Moses; as bringing the ram the substitute for Isaac, which Sammael sought to keep back, etc., etc.: they give him the title of the "great high- priest in heaven," as well as that of the "great prince and conqueror;" and finally lay it down that "wherever Michael is said to have appeared, there the glory of the Shechinah is intended." It is clear that the sounder among them, in making such use of the name, intended to personify the Divine Power, and typify the Messiah (see Schoettgen, Hor. Hebr. i. 1079, 1119, ii. 8, 15, ed. Dresd. 1742).( Smiths Revised Bible Dictionary)









Offline FireSword

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Re: Michael the Archangel “one who is God.
« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2011, 03:38:18 PM »
No, you are mistaken Jesus is not Michael the Archangel.

The concept of Michael the Archangel being Jesus started in the 7th day church when the 7th day Adventist church was being founded, when they denied the deity of Jesus.


"For to which of the angels did He ever say, 'Thou art My Son, today I have begotten thee?'"  Hebrews 1:5

"But of the Son He says, 'Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever...'"
 Hebrews 1:8a


But to which of the angels has He ever said, 'Sit at My right hand, until I make Thine enemies a footstool for Thy feet?' Are they [the angels] not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation?"  Hebrews 1:13-14



Scripture clearly shows that Christ is God, the great I AM, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, Jehovah...but he also was the Angel of the Host, Michael the Arch Angel and there is no conflict here. This is his title when he threw out Satan and when he come to take the saints and put Satan away forever. Scripture shows this....

There are some connections between them both, but scripture calls Michael the prince, but Jesus is the king.

Also all thing are from Him and for Him. There is no evidence of Michael creating the universe.

cs80918

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Re: Michael the Archangel “one who is God.
« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2011, 11:08:08 PM »
Quote
No, you are mistaken Jesus is not Michael the Archangel.

The concept of Michael the Archangel being Jesus started in the 7th day church when the 7th day Adventist church was being founded, when they denied the deity of Jesus.


"For to which of the angels did He ever say, 'Thou art My Son, today I have begotten thee?'"  Hebrews 1:5

"But of the Son He says, 'Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever...'"
 Hebrews 1:8a


But to which of the angels has He ever said, 'Sit at My right hand, until I make Thine enemies a footstool for Thy feet?' Are they [the angels] not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation?"  Hebrews 1:13-14

This belief did not originate with the SDA church.  Nor are they the only ones who make this connection.

The earlier Protestant scholars usually identified Michael with the preincarnate Christ, finding support for their view, not only in the juxtaposition of the "child" and the archangel in #Re 12, but also in the attributes ascribed to him in Daniel (for a full discussion see Hengstenberg, Offenbarung, I, 611-22, and an interesting survey in English by Dr. Douglas in Fairbairn’s BD).
John A. Lees (International Standard Bible Encyclopedia)

ARCHANGEL

This world is only twice used in the Bible, #1Th 4:16 Jude 1:9. In this last passage it is applied to Michael, who, in #Da 10:13,21 12:1, is described as having a special charge of the Jewish nation, and in #Re 12:7-9 as the leader of an angelic army. So exalted are the position and offices ascribed to Michael, that many think the Messiah is meant. ( American Tract Society Bible Dictionary)

The Rabbinical traditions about Michael are very numerous. They oppose him constantly to Sammael, the accuser and enemy of Israel, as disputing for the soul of Moses; as bringing the ram the substitute for Isaac, which Sammael sought to keep back, etc., etc.: they give him the title of the "great high- priest in heaven," as well as that of the "great prince and conqueror;" and finally lay it down that "wherever Michael is said to have appeared, there the glory of the Shechinah is intended." It is clear that the sounder among them, in making such use of the name, intended to personify the Divine Power, and typify the Messiah (see Schoettgen, Hor. Hebr. i. 1079, 1119, ii. 8, 15, ed. Dresd. 1742).( Smiths Revised Bible Dictionary)










I know it wasn't started in the 7th day church, but I was trying to say it was a doctrine of the 7th day adventist from the beginning.  Also, the 7th day adventist use to deny the deity of Jesus, they called him Michael the Arch Angel, because they didn't think he was God.


Amo

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Re: Michael the Archangel “one who is God.
« Reply #12 on: December 24, 2011, 08:38:50 AM »
Quote
There are some connections between them both, but scripture calls Michael the prince, but Jesus is the king.

Also all thing are from Him and for Him. There is no evidence of Michael creating the universe.

6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this. Isaiah 9:6-7 (KJV)

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. Dan 9:25 (KJV)

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: Dan 12:1 (KJV)

14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you; 15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses. Acts 3:14-15 (KJV)

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. Acts 5:31 (KJV)



Amo

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Re: Michael the Archangel “one who is God.
« Reply #13 on: December 24, 2011, 08:49:14 AM »
Quote
I know it wasn't started in the 7th day church, but I was trying to say it was a doctrine of the 7th day adventist from the beginning.  Also, the 7th day adventist use to deny the deity of Jesus, they called him Michael the Arch Angel, because they didn't think he was God.

You sure are loose with the facts.  At the beginning of the SDA denomination, all the members came from other denominations, or no denomination at all.  Thus for a while, varying views existed among the members.  There were a few, who believed Christ was a created being.  This view however, was corrected by many, including one of your favorites, EGW.  Observe the following -

The Youth’s Instructor, June 21, 1900, par. 2


Not one of the angels could have become surety for the human race: their life is God’s; they could not surrender it. The angels all wear the yoke of obedience. They are the appointed messengers of Him who is the commander of all heaven. But Christ is equal with God, infinite and omnipotent. He could pay the ransom for man’s freedom. He is the eternal, self-existing Son, on whom no yoke had come; and when God asked, “Whom shall I send?

cs80918

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Re: Michael the Archangel “one who is God.
« Reply #14 on: December 24, 2011, 06:26:48 PM »
Amos- This get some things settled.  Who were the founders of the SDA?  That formed the church within the first 5 years of its existence?