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Author Topic: Michael the Archangel “one who is God.  (Read 4652 times)

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Offline djconklin

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Re: Michael the Archangel “one who is God.
« Reply #45 on: January 10, 2012, 10:59:59 AM »
>OK - if your christian source is so good why do the traditional Jewish sources only list 4 archangels when your source says there is seven? 

Good question.  Look at the sources that were provided.

>The places I am quoting source their texts back to the Talmuds. If you follow the links, they list the references.

Likewise.

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Re: Michael the Archangel “one who is God.
« Reply #45 on: January 10, 2012, 10:59:59 AM »

Offline LightHammer

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Re: Michael the Archangel “one who is God.
« Reply #46 on: January 10, 2012, 11:02:18 AM »
>The appropriate translation for Michael is not "one who is God" it is "one who is like God".

Note the number of experts in linguistics that support that claim.

You ignored everything else. Again. Noted.
No one is required to deal with each and every single point.  You made a claim; I noted the lack of support for that claim.  Deal with it.  It is duly noted that you couldn't.


Evading.

You responded to the last sentence which had no correlation to the majority of my posts. Ignoring the majority and responding to one single sentence was strategic because the majority pretty much sinks this new speculation off shore.

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Re: Michael the Archangel “one who is God.
« Reply #46 on: January 10, 2012, 11:02:18 AM »

Offline djconklin

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Re: Michael the Archangel “one who is God.
« Reply #47 on: January 10, 2012, 11:03:46 AM »
>Where exactly are the linguistic experts listed? Which reply I think I missed them.

I was using sarcasm--you didn't note ANY linguistic scholars in the field to support your claim.

Offline djconklin

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Re: Michael the Archangel “one who is God.
« Reply #48 on: January 10, 2012, 11:06:23 AM »
>Evading.

No, simple statement to fact.  If you had even taken one class in logic you would have known that.

>You responded to the last sentence which had no correlation to the majority of my posts.

Again, I'm not required to deal with each and every claim in your post (singular) that I was responding to.  Haven't you taken any classes in logic?

>the majority pretty much sinks this new speculation off shore.

Again with the claim of speculation with no proof supporting it.

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Re: Michael the Archangel “one who is God.
« Reply #48 on: January 10, 2012, 11:06:23 AM »

Offline djconklin

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Re: Michael the Archangel “one who is God.
« Reply #49 on: January 10, 2012, 11:10:29 AM »
The kingdom and comings of Christ: wherein is explained the ... - Page 76
   
John Collinsworth Simmons - 1891

"There have been various opinions with reference to Michael. Without reference to these opinions, we believe Michael to be none other than the Lord Jesus Christ. Twice only is the term "archangel " used in the Scripture, and each time preceded by the definite article, thus showing that there is but one archangel, and that this archangel is Michael. Jude says: "Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil," etc. Paul says (1 Thess. iv. 16): "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God." Jesus says (John v. 28, 29): "All that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth." Then the voice of the archangel and the voice of Jesus must be the same."

http://books.google.com/books?id=3iRIAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA86&dq=%22michael+the+archangel%22&output=text#c_top

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Re: Michael the Archangel “one who is God.
« Reply #49 on: January 10, 2012, 11:10:29 AM »



Offline LightHammer

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Re: Michael the Archangel “one who is God.
« Reply #50 on: January 10, 2012, 11:16:10 AM »
>Where exactly are the linguistic experts listed? Which reply I think I missed them.

I was using sarcasm--you didn't note ANY linguistic scholars in the field to support your claim.


Neither did the author but here are a few easy to reach online lexicons.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/search/?q=Michael&s=References&rc=LEX

http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3413

Offline LightHammer

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Re: Michael the Archangel “one who is God.
« Reply #51 on: January 10, 2012, 11:18:17 AM »
>Evading.

No, simple statement to fact.  If you had even taken one class in logic you would have known that.

>You responded to the last sentence which had no correlation to the majority of my posts.

Again, I'm not required to deal with each and every claim in your post (singular) that I was responding to.  Haven't you taken any classes in logic?

>the majority pretty much sinks this new speculation off shore.

Again with the claim of speculation with no proof supporting it.

What do you mean the claim of speculation its fact. God in Heaven is King not prince. The Logos is not one of a group of Chief princes.

John 1:1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

 2The same was in the beginning with God.


Its not Michael.

Offline djconklin

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Re: Michael the Archangel “one who is God.
« Reply #52 on: January 10, 2012, 12:06:43 PM »
>Neither did the author

And that would have been whom?

Offline djconklin

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Re: Michael the Archangel “one who is God.
« Reply #53 on: January 10, 2012, 12:10:03 PM »
>What do you mean the claim of speculation its fact.

1) You originally claimed it was speculation.  Now you back off of that claim--good to see--should have done that abit ago.
2) Now you claim it is a fact.  Nothing in the verses cited contradict the sources I quoted (originally and subsequently).

BTW, this source http://books.google.com/books?id=ty1BAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA465&dq=%22michael+the+archangel%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=uIIMT73iPIThsQKOmdTxBQ&ved=0CHEQ6AEwBjgy#v=onepage&q=%22michael%20the%20archangel%22&f=false refers to a quote found in Whiston from Philo (perhaps you've heard of him?); the quote can be seen here: http://ia600308.us.archive.org/27/items/primitivechristi04whis/primitivechristi04whis.pdf

Offline LightHammer

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Re: Michael the Archangel “one who is God.
« Reply #54 on: January 10, 2012, 12:18:34 PM »
>What do you mean the claim of speculation its fact.

1) You originally claimed it was speculation.  Now you back off of that claim--good to see--should have done that abit ago.
2) Now you claim it is a fact.  Nothing in the verses cited contradict the sources I quoted (originally and subsequently).

BTW, this source http://books.google.com/books?id=ty1BAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA465&dq=%22michael+the+archangel%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=uIIMT73iPIThsQKOmdTxBQ&ved=0CHEQ6AEwBjgy#v=onepage&q=%22michael%20the%20archangel%22&f=false refers to a quote found in Whiston from Philo (perhaps you've heard of him?); the quote can be seen here: http://ia600308.us.archive.org/27/items/primitivechristi04whis/primitivechristi04whis.pdf


1. I claimed the 16000 Protestanst with no tioes to the Early Church were speculating. I see I got my wires cross when I thought you were referring to my exegesis as speculation even when I just recently provided scriptural facts which went ignored for the third time.

2. I was claiming that Jesus Christ not being Michael was fact and that the idea that He was Michale was specualtion. Poor speculation.

I also provided two lexicons to debunked the OP's  translation of Michael. Its "who is like God" NOT "who is God". One word makes a diffeence.


Offline djconklin

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Re: Michael the Archangel “one who is God.
« Reply #55 on: January 10, 2012, 12:33:48 PM »
>I claimed the 16000 [sic] Protestanst [sic] with no tioes [sic] to the Early Church were speculating.

And that is what I'm saying that you didn't provide any proof for.

>scriptural facts which went ignored for the third time.

Yep, he didn't take any courses in logic.  From Wiki (handy online source):

"A premise is a proposition that is used as the foundation for drawing conclusions. For example:

    Premise: "Apples are a type of fruit."
    Premise: "All types of fruit are food."
    Conclusion: "Therefore, apples are food."

If the conclusion is false then either one or more of the premisses is false or the process of combining the premises is logically invalid. If the premisses are true and the process is logically valid, then the conclusion must be true."

You don't have to prove each and every single premise is false.  You only have to show one and the conclusion fails.

>2. I was claiming that Jesus Christ not being Michael was fact and that the idea that He was Michale [sic] was specualtion. Poor speculation.

>I was claiming that Jesus Christ not being Michael was fact

Actually we don't claim that.  Jesus Christ didn't exist till He was born in Bethlehem.  Michael as a being predates that time.

Still no proof.  Just saying the same thing in different words.

Offline LightHammer

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Re: Michael the Archangel “one who is God.
« Reply #56 on: January 10, 2012, 12:43:50 PM »
>I claimed the 16000 [sic] Protestanst [sic] with no tioes [sic] to the Early Church were speculating.

And that is what I'm saying that you didn't provide any proof for.

>scriptural facts which went ignored for the third time.

Yep, he didn't take any courses in logic.  From Wiki (handy online source):

"A premise is a proposition that is used as the foundation for drawing conclusions. For example:

    Premise: "Apples are a type of fruit."
    Premise: "All types of fruit are food."
    Conclusion: "Therefore, apples are food."

If the conclusion is false then either one or more of the premisses is false or the process of combining the premises is logically invalid. If the premisses are true and the process is logically valid, then the conclusion must be true."

You don't have to prove each and every single premise is false.  You only have to show one and the conclusion fails.

>2. I was claiming that Jesus Christ not being Michael was fact and that the idea that He was Michale [sic] was specualtion. Poor speculation.

>I was claiming that Jesus Christ not being Michael was fact

Actually we don't claim that.  Jesus Christ didn't exist till He was born in Bethlehem.  Michael as a being predates that time.

Still no proof.  Just saying the same thing in different words.

1. The proof is in the authors. Which are Protestant. Which didn't exist until about 1600 years after the Early Church.

2. Pre-Incarnate Jesus Christ is the Logos. I quoted John 1. The Logos in Heaven is God and God in Heaven is not one of a seaprate group of chief princes.

Easy enough to refute.

Offline djconklin

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Re: Michael the Archangel “one who is God.
« Reply #57 on: January 10, 2012, 12:52:58 PM »
>1. The proof is in the authors. Which are Protestant. Which didn't exist until about 1600 years after the Early Church.

And one of them (as I recently noted) cited Philo--you managed to miss that one (on purpose?)

2. Pre-Incarnate Jesus Christ

That's an oxymoron.  Jesus didn't exist till He was born.  Read the OT--nowhere is God who created us, according to Gen 1 and John 1, called Jesus Christ.

===

The comments of Basil Studer are worth mentioning-

    In the early Christian writings which are still strongly influenced by Jewish tradition, a Christology is encountered which is to be located within the context of a fully developed angelology. It is called angel-christology. In this Christ appears as an angel and, accordingly, receives the traditional angelic names, such as Michael and Gabriel. Yet he is not treated as their equal. He towers above them with his colossal stature and appears as their Lord who sends them and is going to mete out judgement some day with their help. Such ideas are to be found above all in the Shepherd of Hermas, in 2 Enoch and the Recognitiones of Clement. … This angelogical description of Christ's salvation of course presupposes the biblical idea of the angel of the Lord. A tradition which understood Christ mainly as revealer of the invisible Father obviously identified him with that angel who appeared to the patriarchs and proclaimed to them the will of God. Trinity and Incarnation, pg. 37 {I bolded the sentence.}

Aloys Grillmeier states-

    But there can be no question of a substantial reduction of the Son of God to Michael. For the Son is in the end quite clearly distinguished from the archangel even though the latter stands in the place usually occupied by the Son of God. The elements of transcendence in the picture of the 'most reverend' angel, by which is meant the Son of God, go far beyond the Jewish picture of Michael. For the Jewish tradition Michael is indeed the supreme leader of the heavenly host, but it is not certain that he is also the chief of the seven archangels in the sense that the other six are his subordinates. The Shepherd of Hermas, however, quite clearly leaves this place free for Christ and in such a way as to correspond to the new figure:

    "'Have you also seen the six men and the glorious and great man in their midst who is walking round the tower and who rejected the stones from the building?' 'Yes, sir.' 'The glorious man is the Son of God, and those six are the glorious angels who support him on the right and on the left. Of these glorious angels none can enter the presence of God without him. Whoever does not receive his name will not enter the kingdom of God' (Sim. IX, 12, 7-8).

    Here it is quite clear that the Son of God is meant and that as such he is superior to the six chief angels. These angels are his entourage. He does not stand like Michael as primus inter pares, for he is the way to God even for the angels! Michael is not given such a role among the archangels, even in his capacity as escort of souls. Christ in Christian Tradition, Vol. 1, pgs. 49-50. {all emphasis mine}

found online at http://www.tektonics.org/guest/psnicea.html
« Last Edit: January 10, 2012, 01:00:03 PM by djconklin »

Offline djconklin

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Re: Michael the Archangel “one who is God.
« Reply #58 on: January 10, 2012, 01:04:42 PM »
"I shall give you another testimony, my friends, said I, from the Scriptures, that God begat before all creatures a Beginning, who was a certain rational power proceeding from Himself, who is called by the Holy Spirit, now the Glory of the Lord, now the Son, again Wisdom, again an Angel, then God, and then Lord and Logos; and on another occasion, he calls himself Captain." (Justin Martyr, "Dialogue With Trypho," Ante-Nicene Fathers, volume 1, page 227)

Early Christian scholar Origen writes:

"There are certain creatures, rational and divine, which are called powers [spirit creatures, probably angels]; and of these Christ was the highest and best and is called not only the wisdom of God but also His power." - ANF 10:321-322.

For more quotes see http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com/2011/06/scholars-quotes-concerning-jesus-as.html.

===

On one web page it is claimed: "An indication that Church "Father" Hermas believed that Jesus Christ and Michael the Archangel are one and the same is found at Pastor of Hermas, Book Third, Similitude 8th, Chapter 3. Hermas is a Second Century C.E. source."

"I said to him, "Sir, explain to me what this tree means, for I am perplexed about it, because, after so many branches have been cut off, it continues sound, and nothing appears to have been cut away from it. By this, now, I am perplexed." "Listen," he said: "This great tree [319] that casts its shadow over plains, and mountains, and all the earth, is the law of God that was given to the whole world; and this law is the Son of God, [320] proclaimed to the ends of the earth; and the people who are under its shadow are they who have heard the proclamation, and have believed upon Him. And the great and glorious angel Michael is he who has authority over this people, and governs them; [321] for this is he who gave them the law [322] into the hearts of believers: he accordingly superintends them to whom he gave it, to see if they have kept the same. ..."
« Last Edit: January 10, 2012, 01:15:31 PM by djconklin »