Author Topic: Preterism  (Read 2181 times)

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Online Rella

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #105 on: Wed Mar 03, 2021 - 07:48:35 »
Those are all nearly 1000 years after the earliest evidence of "English" speaking people.

Well, someone had to start somewhere LOL

All kidding aside... I have an ongoing quest to find very old scripture... no matter the language... preferably translated into English.

I only posted those cause of showing there were others before King Jimmy wanted his version.

As to English speaking.... I would dare say that my own family on my paternal grandmothers side ... though hailing from the UK have been traced back even into BC times... up to Denmark and Scandinavian countries...  I have the chart.

Tracing them forward they were basic heathens from what I could detect well into the 600AD or 700AD or later and would have had little interest in anything Christian or any writings.... IF they could even read and write ... though someone knew enough to post births.

My relative, direct blood line, .... born in 1605 died 1682 had been a rector for the Church of England in Sudbury , Gloucester. Ironically, he left the church and moved to Scotland to join the Presbyterian church ALL OVER A DISAGREEMENT WITH BAPTISM at the time.

But he was alive and well during the time periods of the English speaking bibles that I have posted.

I shall continue my search for older translations

Offline RB

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #106 on: Wed Mar 03, 2021 - 08:10:28 »
I shall continue my search for older translations
In English:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyndale_Bible#:~:text=Tyndale's%20Bible%20is%20credited%20with,in%20the%20art%20of%20printing. Geneva Bible is an excellent version of the scriptures.

Here's the deal: rather Luther and his German Bible or Calvin in his French version (of course he could read Latin as well, etc) they ALL preach as though they were preaching from our English version of 1611~I KNOW for I have read behind both men extensively, at least enough to know that between them all there was hardly ANY DIFFERENCES in the scriptures they preached from. 

I now need to get to Revelation 7 as promised. 
« Last Edit: Wed Mar 03, 2021 - 08:19:56 by RB »

Online Rella

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #107 on: Wed Mar 03, 2021 - 08:42:55 »
In English:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyndale_Bible#:~:text=Tyndale's%20Bible%20is%20credited%20with,in%20the%20art%20of%20printing. Geneva Bible is an excellent version of the scriptures.

Here's the deal: rather Luther and his German Bible or Calvin in his French version (of course he could read Latin as well, etc) they ALL preach as though they were preaching from our English version of 1611~I KNOW for I have read behind both men extensively, at least enough to know that between them all there was hardly ANY DIFFERENCES in the scriptures they preached from. 

I now need to get to Revelation 7 as promised.

Yes, I forgot all about Tyndall cause I do not have an actual Tyndall translation on the computer.

About Tyndall bible... The Tyndale New Testament first appeared in 1525. It was the first English Bible that was translated from Greek and the first that was printed.

Then there was the Coverdale Bible 1535 whose claim is that the Coverdale Bible, compiled by Myles Coverdale and published in 1535, was the first complete Modern English translation of the Bible (not just the Old Testament or New Testament), and the first complete printed translation into English.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coverdale_Bible

But we also have the Wycliff Bible..... translated in 1382.

I do not have any of the last 3 in my list as I either could not find them online or it I could as i the case of Wycliff... they are too difficult.

See Gen 1 1-5

1 In the bigynnyng God made of nouyt heuene and erthe.

1 In the bigynnyng God made of nouyt heuene and erthe. 2 Forsothe the erthe was idel and voide, and derknessis weren on the face of depthe; and the Spiryt of the Lord was borun on the watris. 2 Forsothe the erthe was idel and voide, and derknessis weren on the face of depthe; and the Spiryt of the Lord was borun on the watris.

3 And God seide, Liyt be maad, and liyt was maad.

3 And God seide, Liyt be maad, and liyt was maad. 4 And God seiy the liyt, that it was good, and he departide the liyt fro derknessis; and he clepide the liyt, 4 And God seiy the liyt, that it was good, and he departide the liyt fro derknessis; and he clepide the liyt, 5 dai, and the derknessis, nyyt. And the euentid and morwetid was maad, o daie. 5 dai, and the derknessis, nyyt. And the euentid and morwetid was maad, o daie.


Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #108 on: Wed Mar 03, 2021 - 08:45:15 »
Well, someone had to start somewhere LOL

All kidding aside... I have an ongoing quest to find very old scripture... no matter the language... preferably translated into English.

I only posted those cause of showing there were others before King Jimmy wanted his version.

As to English speaking.... I would dare say that my own family on my paternal grandmothers side ... though hailing from the UK have been traced back even into BC times... up to Denmark and Scandinavian countries...  I have the chart.

Tracing them forward they were basic heathens from what I could detect well into the 600AD or 700AD or later and would have had little interest in anything Christian or any writings.... IF they could even read and write ... though someone knew enough to post births.

My relative, direct blood line, .... born in 1605 died 1682 had been a rector for the Church of England in Sudbury , Gloucester. Ironically, he left the church and moved to Scotland to join the Presbyterian church ALL OVER A DISAGREEMENT WITH BAPTISM at the time.

But he was alive and well during the time periods of the English speaking bibles that I have posted.

I shall continue my search for older translations

You need to try to be less white.   ::tippinghat::

Online Rella

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #109 on: Wed Mar 03, 2021 - 10:13:16 »
You need to try to be less white.   ::tippinghat::

 rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl

Freckles only look good on white! ::crackup::

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #109 on: Wed Mar 03, 2021 - 10:13:16 »



Offline Cobalt1959

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #110 on: Thu Mar 04, 2021 - 02:39:47 »
Quote
The ONLY earth Christ shall reign on will be the NEW EARTH and in the NEW HEAVENS. At the present time he is reigning FAR ABOVE ALL at God's right hand, or the very highest exalted position one can be exalted to. 70 A.D. theory as being important in biblical prophecy is a lie from the pits of hell and all who hold to that doctrine are deceived in that area of biblical truths. Children of God I would NOT question, but deceived they are as far as holding to biblical truths on Christ's coming, etc.

That is not what Revelation 20 says.

Offline Cobalt1959

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #111 on: Thu Mar 04, 2021 - 02:50:01 »
Quote
Hi againCobalt1959,

You must have skimmed over my long comment and missed where I DID briefly touch on the millennium.  Look again.

And I have never said that all prophecy was fulfilled by the close of AD 70.  I have said that all WRITTEN prophecy was unsealed and fulfilled about the “days of vengeance” back then (Luke 21:22), but that there is obviously some UNWRITTEN prophecy sealed up in Rev. 10:4 for history AFTER AD 70 had come and gone.

You’ll have to pardon my truly “long-winded” comments, since I have no church fellowship (or fellowship with my spouse either) to share anything with.  I cherish this website for offering that opportunity with you all - even when you are not in agreement with what I present.

There is a very, very simple way to confirm the actual ENDING of the literal 1,000-year millennium.  It’s the Rev. 12:12 verse, when compared with Rev. 20:3 & 7.

Satan was supposed to be released from his 1,000-year chain for only a “little season” just AFTER the millennium had “EXPIRED” and had been “FULFILLED”, correct?

Well, John said in Rev. 12:12 that the Devil in the days of his readers had ALREADY come down to wrathfully oppress the inhabitants of earth and sea for that “short time”.  In other words, an angry Devil was already released after the millennium and was walking about “as a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour” in those days (I Peter 5:8).  So, the millennium had ALREADY EXPIRED before John was setting pen to parchment in those days.

Now, whether you admit to a late date or an early date for Revelation’s composition - this doesn’t matter much in this discussion, since the millennium would have ALREADY EXPIRED AND BEEN FULFILLED in either case.

The Rev. 20 Millennium dates lasting from its beginning to its expiration include the literal 1,000 years of a physical temple worship system between 968/967 BC until AD 33 when Christ established Himself as the true spiritual temple’s foundation stone.

Simple.  The millennium ended when Christ first ascended and the devil descended.

Unwritten prophesy?  How can it be sealed up in Revelation if it is unwritten?  That makes no sense.  And if it is unwritten, how can you stand on something when you have no idea what it says?  It's pretty convenient that this "unwritten" prophesy you talk about can't be examined and tested.  We can do that with biblical prophecy and we know that there are some prophecies that are yet  to be fulfilled.  And every preterits disagrees on what constituted a prophecy in the past and how it was fulfilled, so your doctrine has some huge problems.

I'll ask the question again, since you ignored it:

Where is Jesus, right now?

Offline RB

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #112 on: Thu Mar 04, 2021 - 03:32:22 »
That is not what Revelation 20 says.
Cobalt, I'm not of the preterist camp, as you can tell, neither I'm I of the premillennialist camp.

As far as Revelation twenty is teaching  without question is not an "earthly millennium reign" on this present earth with Christ reigning in his glorified body, which btw is the only body he has and will ever have. Now, if you believe this is so, then by all means labor to prove your doctrine, and I'll come and debate you on this as time permits.

Jesus is presently reigning NOW at God's right hand of power and is there UNTIL all of his enemies are made his footstool, then he will come and reign on the new earth and heavens world without end. The very last enemy that shall be destroyed is DEATH.
Quote from: Paul, the idealist amillennialist's
1st Corinthians 15:21-28~"For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."
Whatever you think Revelation twenty is saying it MUST agree with such scriptures as these or else your doctrine shall be found WANTING in God's teaching of the THE TRUTH. It is very obvious that Christ is NOW reigning as KING over spiritual Israel and WILL reign until the last foe is defeated and THEN shall he deliver up the kingdom to God that God may be ALL in ALL. Revelation Twenty is not difficult when overall scriptures are considered~they will drive the interpretation of Revelation twenty NOT the other way around like so many labors to understand Revelation. The thousand years of Revelation twenty started at the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and will last until the second coming of Christ to destroy all of his enemies. The RIGHTEOUS at the death of their bodies continues to LIVE with Christ during this one thousand years, yet the wicked are NOT SO, for they do not have eternal live as believers DO. A true believer CANNOT die for they possess ETERNAL LIFE in Christ and are NOW reigning with him FAR ABOVE ALL~much like King David of old, even though he was anointed king over Israel, he did not officially reign in Jerusalem until much later AFTER being anointed king by Samuel. Jesus was anointed at his resurrection per Peter:
Quote
Acts 2:32-36~This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
We are NOW IN the kingdom of Jesus Christ:
Quote from: Paul
Colossians 1:13~"Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:"
If I were you, I would be very careful not to rob Christ of the glory his Father has given unto him even now~ it is just not visible as it very soon shall be! Selah



« Last Edit: Thu Mar 04, 2021 - 03:44:09 by RB »

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #113 on: Thu Mar 04, 2021 - 10:08:31 »
Hi Cobalt1959,

“Where is Jesus right now?” you asked.

I agree with RB that Christ is reigning on His high priestly throne in heaven presently.  He is doing this in His same glorified, physically-resurrected body that came out of the sepulcher in AD 33.  Christ’s body can assume different appearances or “forms” (morphe), as it did on the road to Emmaeus (Mark 16:12).

We hashed this out at length on the recent January post in the Theology forum called “Gathered to his people”.

Would you like a very simple verse that tells us where Christ is now?  He told us in Rev. 3:21.  “To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and AM SET DOWN WITH MY FATHER IN HIS THRONE.”  On the day of Pentecost in AD 33, Peter said that Christ was already established on that high-priestly throne after His resurrection and final ascension (Acts 2:29-36).

As the second person of the Trinity, the Word which eventually became flesh has ALWAYS REIGNED; just in different manifested ways over history.  The 1,000-year millennium time limit has NEVER applied to God.  As the Psalmist once said, “Thy THRONE is established *OF OLD*; THOU ART FROM *EVERLASTING*”. 

That 1,000-year millennium limited time period was imposed on SATAN - NOT CHRIST.  And it ENDED even before John was writing Revelation, as Rev. 12:12 proves when compared with Rev. 20:3 & 7.  Satan was NOT bound after Christ’s resurrection and ascension.  It was then that he and his angels lost the war in heaven.  They were judged and kicked out of heaven down to the earth to wage angry war on the inhabitants of earth and sea for only that “short time” and “little season” BACK THEN in AD 33.

Cobalt1959, you also questioned the “UNWRITTEN” prophecies that were “sealed up” in Rev. 10:4.  To “seal” anything in scripture is to preserve in a reserved status something which will eventually be “unsealed” and openly fulfilled at a later date.    Daniel 12:4 & 9 proves this.  A “sealing” can equally apply to an ORAL prophecy, which those 7 thunders uttered in John’s  hearing in Rev. 10:3-4.

We have other prophetic and symbolic scripture indications that fallen man’s history on this planet would continue AFTER the AD 70 resurrection and judgment.  Didn’t I just list the example of Matthew 24:21?  It says without question that regular bouts of tribulation for the saints would keep occurring  over time AFTER the “Great Tribulation” had come and gone (“...No, nor ever SHALL BE” - afterward). 

Christ’s second coming return would happen “IMMEDIATELY AFTER” that “Great Tribulation”, but with regular periods of tribulation for the saints throughout history following AFTERWARD over time.  However, none of those periods of oppression would duplicate the PARTICULAR TYPE of troubled experiences during the “Great Tribulation” which preceded them.

Zechariah 14:16-19 also prophesied  conditions in the world AFTER the AD 70 judgment on the nation of Israel - all the multiple disasters described to happen “IN THAT DAY” as listed from Zechariah chapters 12-14. 

Even Christ’s parable about the leaven gives an illustration about history and growth of the kingdom of God following the tumultuous era of AD 66-70.  It was a punch-down of the “bread dough” between risings of the “loaf” when the saints were “worn out” by having a war waged against them by the “little horn”.   Since then, the kingdom of God is now slowly going through the second rising process of leaven development until ALL the loaf is leavened by exposure to the kingdom of God’s influence. 

The same concept of incremental kingdom growth is displayed by Daniel 2’s “rock” after it simultaneously smashed all the statue back in AD 70 by destroying Satan’s existence and rule over the “kingdoms of the world”. 

At the close of AD 70, all those confiscated multiple crowns of the kingdoms of this world were given to Christ.  As in God’s Ps. 2:8 promise to the Son on the day of His resurrection and ascension, “Ask of me, and I will give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.”  Also Ps. 72:8: “Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit ALL nations.”  Which He already did.  Christ CURRENTLY wears those “many crowns” found in Rev.19:12.

I agree with you, Cobalt1959, that Preterism as it now stands in the public understanding has divisions among its proponents.  (That’s true of every denomination as well.). Those divisions need to be addressed, and some concepts need to be dumped (such as the Full Preterist idea of no physical resurrection of the saints’ individual dead bodies, for one major example).  I have done my best to pick out the true elements from the Preterist teaching (and from the other eschatological camps as well) and arrive at scripture’s true message regarding these things.  It’s a sifting process.  Tedious, but rewarding.

Offline DaveW

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #114 on: Thu Mar 04, 2021 - 10:12:58 »
I'll ask the question again, since you ignored it:
Where is Jesus, right now?
That is kinda like asking where on earth Mars is. 

ANSWER: it is not on earth at all. 

And since our time/space existence is totally uncoupled from the eternal chronology, there can be no "right now" that will link the 2.

Offline Cobalt1959

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #115 on: Fri Mar 05, 2021 - 03:11:07 »
Quote
That is kinda like asking where on earth Mars is.

ANSWER: it is not on earth at all.

And since our time/space existence is totally uncoupled from the eternal chronology, there can be no "right now" that will link the 2.

Sounds like something a Hippie would say.  But you forgot to put, "Man" at the end.

It is a valid questions since Preterists claim Jesus came back in 70 AD, but then distance themselves from that part of their doctrine when they can't produce anyone from the church in that time period that wrote about, or described that event, and they refuse to either say where Jesus is now, or explain how He's back in heaven now since His supposed "return" in 70 AD would have been the Second Coming.

God is outside of time, but we are not.  That makes your last sentence a non sequitur.  We strict dimensional time framework.  God knows this and He constructed and had the Bible written for us in terms our human minds can understand.  Therefore, asking where Jesus is, right now, in our finite time period is not a nonsensical question.  I know where He is, at this point in our timeline, and so do most Bible-believing Christians.  It isn't a difficult question, nor is it unanswerable, if one's doctrine is Biblically accurate.

Online Rella

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #116 on: Fri Mar 05, 2021 - 07:20:22 »


It is a valid questions since Preterists claim Jesus came back in 70 AD, but then distance themselves from that part of their doctrine when they can't produce anyone from the church in that time period that wrote about, or described that event, and they refuse to either say where Jesus is now, or explain how He's back in heaven now since His supposed "return" in 70 AD would have been the Second Coming.



Nor are there any historians that have written of such an event.  I am referring to the Jesus returning at that time... specifically.

One who live through and wrote to tell of it was Josephus... And his recounting was strictly about the destruction end of things.

Even though not a Christian in 93 AD he wrote his  “Antiquities of the Jews” which has been  considered to be Josephus’ greatest work. It is 20 books long.

 “Antiquities” is a non-Christian, historical record that confirms a number of the accounts in the New Testament. It is in his Book XX, believed to have been written by Josephus himself, where you will read just one line, but it supports the historical existence of Jesus of Nazareth “who was called Christ.”

Even though not a Christian, Josephus  wrote about the life and death of John the Baptist, the existence of Christ, the growth of early Christianity and the fate of some of the apostles. The descriptions of these events as written by an outsider show Christians a new perspective on familiar stories.

So, it would appear that if the preterists are correct.... Jesus' retun in 70AD to fulfill what they claim is their understanding of Holy Bible scriptures was in total secrecy.

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #117 on: Fri Mar 05, 2021 - 12:21:59 »
No, Rella and Cobalt1959, we have never said Christ’s return was in “total secrecy”.  “Every eye” of all those tribes of the land of Israel - “those who pierced Him” that were sitting captive in Jerusalem - these visually witnessed Christ’s bodily return to the Mount of Olives, and the resurrected saints entering the kingdom, with themselves shut out.  But most of these tribal witnesses died by pestilence, the sword of civil warfare, and famine that was rife in the city during those last few months.  Those last survivors, (the 97,000 Josephus said were enslaved by their Roman captors), by the close of the siege in AD 70 did not have the means to provide you in 2021 with a written record of seeing Christ’s return.  Captured prisoners don’t exactly have access to writing materials (provided they can read and write to begin with) or time to write journals on their way to die as slaves in the mines or in Roman coliseums. 

Even if a prisoner survived for a time in slavery and made such a documentation in those days, who of their slave owners would have sympathetically preserved that document, or even believed them, and saved that document in some kind of literary collection for posterity?  I think you are both having unrealistic expectations.  It’s not like those in Jerusalem back then could whip out an iPhone and record the event, you know.

The second coming return of Christ was NOT going to include His bodily remaining on earth at that time.  He was going to RETURN TO THE FATHER with the resurrected saints, and present the kingdom’s children to the Father, saying, “Behold, I and the children whom thou hast given me!”

Scripture evidence of Christ leaving this planet after His second coming in order to return to heaven with all the resurrected saints is found in John 14:3 and 17:13 & 24.  “...I will come again and RECEIVE YOU unto myself, that where I am, there ye may be also.”  Also, “And now come to thee...Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, BE WITH ME WHERE I AM, that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me.”

And for this second coming, scripture NEVER promised a so-called “translation” of living believers, that would take them to heaven at that time without their having to experience the physical death process.  No one skips out of having to physically DIE ONCE in order to experience a change to immortality and incorruptibility.  It’s a scriptural  “appointment” for all mankind to go through (Heb. 9:27).

So if you both have an idea that somehow living, translated believers at Christ’s second coming were supposed to sail slowly through the air on their way to heaven while the entire amazed world visually witnessed their gradual ascent - this is not the way scripture’s “rapture” of the (resurrected) saints was going to be fulfilled.  It’s popular perception that paints this picture, but it’s not an accurate portrayal of scripture’s account of that event - as it occurred for the bodily-resurrected saints on that Pentecost day in AD 70.


Offline DaveW

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #118 on: Fri Mar 05, 2021 - 12:36:08 »
The second coming return of Christ was NOT going to include His bodily remaining on earth at that time.  He was going to RETURN TO THE FATHER with the resurrected saints, and present the kingdom’s children to the Father, saying, “Behold, I and the children whom thou hast given me!”

Scripture evidence of Christ leaving this planet after His second coming in order to return to heaven with all the resurrected saints is found in John 14:3 and 17:13 & 24.  “...I will come again and RECEIVE YOU unto myself, that where I am, there ye may be also.”  Also, “And now come to thee...Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, BE WITH ME WHERE I AM, that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me.”

And for this second coming, scripture NEVER promised a so-called “translation” of living believers, that would take them to heaven at that time without their having to experience the physical death process.  No one skips out of having to physically DIE ONCE in order to experience a change to immortality and incorruptibility.  It’s a scriptural  “appointment” for all mankind to go through (Heb. 9:27).

So if you both have an idea that somehow living, translated believers at Christ’s second coming were supposed to sail slowly through the air on their way to heaven while the entire amazed world visually witnessed their gradual ascent - this is not the way scripture’s “rapture” of the (resurrected) saints was going to be fulfilled.  It’s popular perception that paints this picture, but it’s not an accurate portrayal of scripture’s account of that event - as it occurred for the bodily-resurrected saints on that Pentecost day in AD 70.
I would suggest, 3R, that the preterists have re-interpreted scripture to fit their own agenda; rather than let their agenda be fitted to scripture.  When scripture says "every eye," where in scripture do we get the idea that it is limited to only those involved in His ministry and murder?

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #119 on: Fri Mar 05, 2021 - 13:56:15 »
Hi Dave W,

You may think that what I’m saying is only dictated by a preconceived agenda, but you would be mistaken.  I’ve said it before, that the only “agenda” I have, as God is my witness, is to follow so closely behind the Savior that it would be difficult to distinguish His shadow from mine.

This “every eye shall see him” phrase found in Rev. 1:7 is taken almost word for word from the Zechariah 12:10 verse.  And THAT verse is sitting smack dab in the middle of an entire, intact prophecy from Zechariah chapters 12-14 that was said to be “the burden of the word of the Lord *FOR ISRAEL*” (Zech. 12:1).  It was a prophecy of the period leading up to and including “the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem” (Zech. 12:2), which included the years AD 66-70.

This was to be specifically the eyes of “those who pierced Him” in Israel that would be seeing Christ’s visible return to that Mount of Olives.  Why do you think the hillside locality of the Mount of Olives is packed with Jewish gravesites?   Even if others don’t believe it, THEY believed Zechariah’s prophecy of the Lord l coming down on that Mount of Olives  location with His angels for the resurrection.  I guess they wanted a front-row seat for that event.  Unfortunately, most of them in that first-century generation never recognized Jesus as the Messiah who would be fulfilling that prophecy.

The one, single word that trips up modern-day interpreters (even the KJV translators) of this Rev. 1:7 verse is the Greek word “kai”.  “...and every eye shall see him, AND (“kai”) they which pierced him: and all tribes of the earth shall wail because of him.”  Typically, people understand that one connective word “kai” to act as a conjunction, meaning “in addition to”.   In other words, the majority take that to mean every one on the entire planet IN ADDITION TO the tribes of the earth would see Christ’s return.  (Actually, that’s really redundant, since the “tribes” would ALREADY be included in the number of EVERYONE on the globe seeing this return.  So that interpretation doesn’t even make sense).

That is only ONE of the possible uses of the connective word “kai” in Greek.  Another possible use of  “kai” can be in an EXPLANATORY SENSE, meaning “even” or “namely”.  Check a Greek grammar text.

One scripture example of “kai” used in this explanatory sense is in the verse, “Blessed be the God AND (“kai”) Father of our Lord Jesus Christ...” (Eph. 1:3). The word “kai” used here would be paraphrased “Blessed be the God, NAMELY (“kai”), THE FATHER of our Lord Jesus Christ...”.   Here, it can’t mean God IN ADDITION TO the Father of Christ; it’s merely specifying that the God they were writing about was not just some pagan god, but NAMELY, or SPECIFICALLY the heavenly Father of Jesus that they were giving praise to.

To use “kai” in its EXPLANATORY SENSE in Rev. 1:7, it would read “...and every eye shall see Him, (“kai”) NAMELY or SPECIFICALLY they that pierced Him: and all tribes of the earth (“tes ges” - the land of Israel) shall wail because of Him.”

Maybe all that just churns up the mud for you and doesn’t explain what I’m saying, Dave W.    I know I’m not often the easiest commenter to understand.  Sorry about that.

Offline RB

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #120 on: Sat Mar 06, 2021 - 05:12:40 »
Even though not a Christian, Josephus  wrote about the life and death of John the Baptist, the existence of Christ, the growth of early Christianity and the fate of some of the apostles. The descriptions of these events as written by an outsider show Christians a new perspective on familiar stories.

So, it would appear that if the preterists are correct.... Jesus' return in 70AD to fulfill what they claim is their understanding of Holy Bible scriptures was in total secrecy.
Rella, your point is well taken and should be to 3 Resurrections, yet, folks cherry-pick what they want to see and hear (not saying that 3 Resurrections practice this, nevertheless, but he is a little guilty)~I'm no lover of a confess agnostic/atheist/unbeliever (truly, not much difference between the three of them, they all will suffer the same fate....the second death in the lake of fire.) as Josephus was, yet at least he does gives some facts, just not sure how accurate they are, for it is so true “History is written by the victors”~or, at least to pacify them, which it seems that Josephus wanted to be on good terms with the Romans to save his own ....!  But, I truly have no clue since I was not there and neither was anyone else that I have spoken to. The WORD OF THE LIVING GOD is the only source of truth for us to truly believe in, and I will so help me God.
Quote from:  
I’ve said it before, that the only “agenda” I have, as God is my witness, is to follow so closely behind the Savior that it would be difficult to distinguish His shadow from mine.
The only way that's possible is for you, myself, and any other man to speak forth the oracles of God and not use "extra-biblical" information to make God's word seems to be compatible to our doctrine that NEEDS extra-bible help in order to give our doctrine some support, or credibility for one to take the bait as being scriptural.
Quote from: 3 Resurrections on: Yesterday at 13:56:15
This “every eye shall see him” phrase found in Rev. 1:7 is taken almost word for word from the Zechariah 12:10 verse.  And THAT verse is sitting smack dab in the middle of an entire, intact prophecy from Zechariah chapters 12-14 that was said to be “the burden of the word of the Lord *FOR ISRAEL*” (Zech. 12:1).  It was a prophecy of the period leading up to and including “the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem” (Zech. 12:2), which included the years AD 66-7
I have (maybe with you) went into depth on Zachariah 12-14, let me see if I can locate those posts so as to keep me from going back over them again to save time. I looked for a few minutes and cannot find them.~so I'll be back and bring the link with me so we can ONCE again go over them.

 

Online Rella

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #121 on: Sat Mar 06, 2021 - 06:03:10 »


  No, Rella and Cobalt1959, we have never said Christ’s return was in “total secrecy”.

IT HAD to be.


 “Every eye” of all those tribes of the land of Israel - “those who pierced Him” that were sitting captive in Jerusalem - these visually witnessed Christ’s bodily return to the Mount of Olives, and the resurrected saints entering the kingdom, with themselves shut out.

By whose account. There was certainly no written record or that would be your proof... but there also was no word of mouth from these people YOU claim "visually witnessed" .

ERGO.... Total secrecy or else someone would have spilled the beans. But instead total silence on this idea until the first Catholic Jesuit Luis Alcazar (1554–1613) in his Investigation of the Hidden Sense of the Apocalypse. Then Hugo Grotius (1583–1645) of Holland was “the first Protestant recruit to Preterism. And not to be left out the father of American Preterism is clearly Moses Stuart (1780–1852) of Andover Seminary who “introduced Preterism into the United States about 1842

All these centuries... nearly 1600 years until  a Jesuit ( I do hope @Amo is seeing this) managed to come up with this idea.

From NO written record and no word of mouth. Even one small voice telling his brother or his wife would have travelled far enough that someone might have said "Hey, do you know what looney Harry said in his pillow talk the other night??"

So it was left up to someone who drew a conclusion based on how he saw things written in the bible... and that blossomed.



 But most of these tribal witnesses died by pestilence, the sword of civil warfare, and famine that was rife in the city during those last few months.

But mum was the word.... right?



 Those last survivors, (the 97,000 Josephus said were enslaved by their Roman captors), by the close of the siege in AD 70 did not have the means to provide you in 2021 with a written record of seeing Christ’s return.  Captured prisoners don’t exactly have access to writing materials (provided they can read and write to begin with) or time to write journals on their way to die as slaves in the mines or in Roman coliseums. 

I never specifically asked for a written record. I did ask and still do for one person in 97,000 who talked about it... even in jail with another prisoner that was over heard by a guard who went laughing and spreading gossip about the prisoners to others....

That would have been too juicy a bit to keep to themselves ESPECIALLY as they would certainly have said and done anything to prove the "Christian" sympathizers were as loony as a dog baying at the moon. ::tippinghat::



Online Rella

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #122 on: Sat Mar 06, 2021 - 06:08:37 »
I would suggest, 3R, that the preterists have re-interpreted scripture to fit their own agenda;

BINGO!  And that was started by none other the a Jesuit ,  Spanish-Catholic Jesuit Luis Alcazar (1554–1613) , who have their own agenda of twisting things for whatever their root cause is.

And make no mistake... They DO have a cause.

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #123 on: Sat Mar 06, 2021 - 08:22:37 »
Rella, you asked “by whose account” we are to believe that the tribes of Israel visually witnessed Christ’s first-century return.  That would be ZECHARIAH, and CHRIST’S testimony that I particularly just mentioned.  PLUS *ALL* THE PROPHETS, since Peter on the day of Pentecost said that every one of them wrote or spoke something about those “last days” that the Apostles were experiencing.

I would say that if you can’t believe Christ, Moses, or the prophets, that you would not be convinced, even were someone to rise from the dead to tell you about it.

RB, this evidence that I’m giving is NOT “extra biblical” as you say.  I usually make a special effort to absolutely saturate every comment I have written with pertinent scripture in regard to these things.  I quote Josephus but rarely (who was *providentially* given a front-row seat to those first-century events).  And other Preterists I quote almost never. 

Rella, on your political comments, you maintain a healthy distrust of the modern- day mainstream media.  Lies and misinformation prevail in those channels that undoubtedly have an agenda.  Well, try to do the same thing here.  The “mainstream” in eschatology has presented you with their own bias-based generalized view of Preterism and its origin.  Much of this is lies and misinformation also.  Try at least looking into the Francis Gumerlock book I mentioned that gives a historical record of Preterist type doctrinal positions and proponents from the days of the early church until now.  One should research BOTH sides of the question about Preterist-type origins to be fair.

In Christ’s parables about the “murderers” of the king’s son (Jesus), He told us the fate of those tribes of Israel who “would not have this man to reign over us”.  As well as “burning up their city” (i.e. Jerusalem), those “murderers” - who pierced Him - were to be brought before the king who would tell His servants to “SLAY THEM BEFORE ME”.  The Pharisees knew Jesus was speaking about themselves, and hated Him all the more for predicting the means of their death in that generation.

Dead men tell no tales.