Author Topic: Preterism  (Read 2685 times)

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Offline Amo

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #35 on: Sat Jan 23, 2021 - 11:15:04 »
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Amo, you aren’t paying attention to the language about the seat of the Dragon which he gave to the Sea Beast.  That seat or throne was just given to the Sea Beast alone.  Satan the Dragon did NOT give his own seat in Pergamos to Mystery Babylon riding the Scarlet Beast in the wilderness - just to the Sea Beast that in John’s days had a 666-year-old biographical history that had existed ever since the first lion kingdom, led by Nebuchadnezzar.

 You may think the Sea Beast was not yet in existence in John’s days, but that Rev. 13 list of “leopard, bear, and lion” features for the Sea Beast shows us it had existed as early as Nebuchadnezzar’s “lion” empire.

And the Land Beast cannot possibly be the United States, because that Land Beast exercised the same power of the Sea Beast “before him” and “in the sight of” the Sea Beast.  That means the Sea Beast and the Land Beast were contemporaries at some point, with the Land Beast operating in the DIRECT VIEW and under the eyesight of the Sea Beast.

Still making a mess of Biblical prophecy I see. The scarlet beast is not a beast of the wilderness, it is the beast which arose out of the sea, that is peoples, nations, and tongues. There is no wilderness beast. No beast arose out of the wilderness, John was simply carried to the wilderness in the spirit, to have a vision concerning the great whore (Babylon) sitting upon the healed and or resurrected sea beast. The whore and beast sit upon many waters, which waters represent peoples, nations, and tongues (Rev 17:15), the opposite of wilderness. Mystery Babylon rides the sea beast as is obvious from the descriptions of the same, both having seven heads and ten horns.

Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. 2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. 3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Rev 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters: 2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. 3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

The dragon did not give the beast which rose out of the earth its seat and authority. These United States were established upon biblical and Protestant principles of freedom and liberty, around the same time the sea beast received its deadly wound in the late 1700’s. Babylon the Great (the Roman church) did not establish and or ride the beast from the earth. She establishes and rides the sea beast both before it receives a deadly wound, and after its wound is healed. Yes, the beasts from the sea and earth are contemporaries for a while. This is revealed in the fact that the earth beast makes an image to the sea beast in the sight of the same, during its transition from a government which speaks like a lamb, into a government which speaks like the dragon.

The Roman church had little to nothing to do with the establishment of the government of the United States, but has had very much to do with its continued transformation from a lamb like beast or government, to the ever increasingly dragon like beast or government it is being transformed into.

The people and leaders of the world at large were rejecting the leadership of the papacy during the formation of the government of the U.S. The Protestant Reformation had been under way for centuries already, which rejected the abusive nature of a united papacy and state. Then the French Revolution was a direct and violent rejection of Roman Catholic influenced and supported government, which reduced French citizens to abject poverty and peasantry, while ever enriching the wealth and power of the elites over them. Therefore did the people rise up against the same in one of the bloodiest and most violent revolutions in history. Therefore was the Vatican rifled, and the Pope forcibly removed from his throne and put into exile where he died. The sea beast received its deadly by the rejection of her leadership by these two movements seeking freedom from its abusive rule. At which time the sea beast lost its political power for a while, while Protestantism and Atheism or Secularism developed theirs. Nevertheless, the papacy has been striving to regain her political power again on a global scale ever since. Today she is on the verge of resurrecting and riding the sea beast once again through the cooperation she is receiving by the various governments, wealthy, and elites of the world.

The Papacy having fully supported one abusive king and queen after another in enriching and empowering themselves together, was being rejected by the world and the citizens of our newly forming nation at that time. Papists refer to the United States proper fear of Roman Catholic involvement in the founding and establishment of our nation, as bigotry. They ignore and disconnect such from the common knowledge and fear of the abusive governments which she fully supported in her past. Nevertheless, at the same time our nation was being established, the French were literally killing Catholic leaders, priests, bishops, and what have you, for their crimes against humanity. They ran Catholicism out of their country altogether, and rejected God as well, considering that the papacy might actually be His representatives.

While the U.S. demonstrated a healthy distrust of Catholic leadership  during its formation for the reasons stated above and many more, its established freedoms and liberties did not allow for it to prevent Catholics from coming here. Or seeking and obtaining political influence and control within it. To the contrary, through a combination of natural desire to improve one’s situation, and Catholic planned and facilitated immigration, countless millions of Catholics have entered this country during several mass migrations of the same from Europe and elsewhere. While Catholic leadership disagreed with and condemned some of the principles of our founding, they had no problem allowing and or even advising their adherents to come here and partake of the prosperity which our founding principles allowed for.

The Roman church is all about the redistribution of wealth, especially to her and her adherents. Countless millions of which have and do continue to benefit from within this nation and without, while our dwindling prosperity lasts under her ever growing political influence and manipulation. Today, our nation and government in particular is filled with Catholics and therefore ever increasing papal influence upon the same. The Pope was invited to address our Congress in session just a few years ago. Six to seven out of nine Supreme Court Justices are Catholic. Thirty some odd percent of Congress is Catholic. The last eight or nine speakers of the house have been Catholic. If or when Biden takes office, he will be the second Catholic President of our nation. Who by the way, intends to establish much along the lines of Roman Catholic social justice and papal politics within our nation (https://spectator.org/pope-francis-biden-build-back-better/).

The sea beasts wound is almost completely healed. The government of the United States is and has been being transformed from one speaking as a lamb into one speaking as a dragon under the ever increasing influence and supervision, or sight if you will, of the papacy and her minions. Yes, the U.S. is definitely being transformed in the sight of sea beast as her minions are increasingly directing the reins of our government. This is the present and past history and prophetic fulfillment your Jesuit inspired interpretation of biblical prophesy will not allow for. Which is its exact purpose. That is, to bypass all history and true interpretation of the prophecies of the book of Revelation, and replace it with deception unto ruin and destruction. Both in the present by supporting the resurrection of the sea beast and her abusive power, and in the future execution of judgment for peddling deception.

Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

As is made obvious from the above warning, none should take the interpretation of the book of Revelation lightly. Those found guilty of adding or taking away from the meaning of its words, are doomed. May God grant us wisdom and humility to see and admit if we have been wrong.

Rev 12:3  And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

In case you hadn’t noticed or made a connection concerning it, chapter 12 introduces us to the Dragon identified as the devil within the same chapter, which has seven heads just like the sea beast. Chapter 12 describes the war between Christ and Satan in heaven and on earth. Even addressing Satans attempts to destroy Christ at birth and defeat His purpose in the salvation of souls, but Christ triumphed and was brought up to heaven and the throne of God. The chapter then warns the church that the devil knowing his time is short, will go after those who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. This is followed in chapter thirteen by prophetic utterance concerning Satans new covenant beasts he manipulates against Christ’s church. The first beast of this new covenant era is immediately tied to the dragon having seven heads as the dragon himself does, and the previous beasts of old covenant biblical prophecy and beasts. This revealing a continuity of prophetic symbolism regarding biblical beasts of prophecy from the old to new covenant. Seven being the number of completeness, the seven heads of the dragon represent the seven biblical beasts of prophecy through which the devil carries on his rebellion against God on this earth in his war with God’s people.

Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. 13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. 14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. 15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. 16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

These prophecies are concerning Christ’s new testament church and kingdom, and its conflict with the dragons earthly kingdoms in rebellion against God. Revelation chapter 17 brings these seven beast, kings, heads, and mountains together. Revealing that they are one and the same. They are the seven kingdoms or beasts of biblical prophecy through which the dragon has carried on his rebellion against God on this earth in relation to God’s people dwelling upon the same.


Offline Amo

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #36 on: Sun Jan 24, 2021 - 15:54:17 »
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I know I keep harping on this, but you also have never addressed the “AT HAND” terms John used to describe all of the unsealed future prophecies found from the very beginning to the very end of Revelation.  This term is not just wasted ink on John’s part in Rev. 1:3 and 22:10.  It actually MEANS something.   God already told us in Ezekiel 12:21-28 when “AT HAND” prophecies are to be fulfilled, and they are NOT to be “prolonged” into “times that are far off”.  This would eliminate any application of Revelation’s unsealed prophecies to the RCC, for it certainly is a “time far off” compared to when John was writing.

I have already addressed this issue. The term at hand is not as limiting as you have supposed, as I supplied scriptural evidence of the same to you already. Nor does this effect the prophecies of the book of Revelation in either case. The events described in Revelation were and are at hand. They had already begun to unfold in Paul’s day as I have shown you, and they will continue to unfold unto the end. They entail the rise and fall of various kingdoms and or nations, which of course entails quite a bit of time. God’s prophecies and word have far more depth of time and perspective than you allow for. Stretching far beyond any limits fallen humanity desires to place upon it.

Offline Amo

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #37 on: Sun Jan 24, 2021 - 15:57:14 »
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The “Wicked One” and his angels are no longer in existence today to play any part in governments or religious institutions since he was “crushed” under the feet of the saints, as Paul promised was “shortly” to take place in Romans 16:20.  What IS a threat today is the “children of the devil”, as Christ labeled them, besides our own tendency to engage in sinful activities and thoughts.

Paul promised no such thing according to Preterist doctrine which no scripture declares anywhere, but to the contrary only identifies as deception. He was repeating one of the first prophecies and promises given to God’s people immediately after the fall, the final fulfillment of which was more fully established in Christ, and much closer in Paul’s day than when it was first given. Which fulfillment is much closer still today.

Gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: 15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Rom 16:20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

There has always and will continue to be enmity between God’s children and Satans children in this world until the end. The seed of Eve is Christ and His own, and the seed of the serpent are Satan’s and his own.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

The carnal mind controlled through the flesh is enmity with God. Satan and his angels are alive and ever seeking to subjugate humanity to the flesh over and above the Spirit. You serve Satan well in denying his continued existence. I warn all to reject this false teaching of yours and heed the following teachings of scripture.

Eph 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. 11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. 13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. 14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; 15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; 16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: 18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

1 Pe 5:6 Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time: 7 Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you. 8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: 9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world. 10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you. 11To him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. 13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. 14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. 15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. 16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

These messages of warning are for all Christ’s followers until the end. Do not believe the lies of Preterism. The above warnings are to the countless millions if not billions of Christ’s followers until He personally returns unto eternal salvation, not just the relatively few in Jerusalem along with Preterists supposed resurrected saints, between 33 and 70AD. This is false prophecy which claims Christ has already returned in secret as it were, or in only a certain place.


Mt 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

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It makes no difference if you think this large an amount of future prophecy could not possibly be fulfilled in a ten year span before AD 70’s end.  If GOD says they were all “AT HAND” in John’s days, then YOU are the one who must adjust to HIS terms, not He to your assumptions.

That is a big fat negative. We have already dispelled this false notion of what you declare at hand must mean at all times. You are simply wrong as already proved from scripture. Nevertheless, as already stated also, these prophecies were at hand and already beginning to unfold even before the book of Revelation was completed. As Paul himself testified. There has not been a moment of human history at which time  God’s word and or biblical prophecy has not been being fulfilled. Nor will there ever be a moment in which it is not. You simply do not comprehend or understand the depth and scope of the Infinite One’s words. They are eternal as He is, with eternal purpose, meaning. fulfillment, and function. Neither God or any of His followers are limited to your extremely short sighted interpretations of His prophecies, or depth of His word.
« Last Edit: Sun Jan 24, 2021 - 16:04:24 by Amo »

Offline Amo

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #38 on: Sun Jan 24, 2021 - 16:16:01 »
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One of the main problems you have, Amo, is trying to make the term “the EARTH” (tes ges) refer to the entire WORLD at large in Revelation (which would be “oikoumenen” instead.  “Tes ges” is usually specific to the land of Israel in scripture.  Such as Hebrews 8:4, for just one example.  Speaking of the ascended Christ, it says “For if He were ON EARTH” (ges - the land of Israel), “He should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law...”

Those “tribes of the EARTH” (tes ges) seeing Christ’s return were specifically some of ethnic Israel’s 12 tribes seeing that return.  The mournful “weeping and gnashing of teeth” of these tribes was specifically from those who claimed that “We have EATEN AND DRUNK IN THY PRESENCE, and THOU HAST TAUGHT IN OUR STREETS.” (Luke 13:25-29).  There is only one specific generation that could legitimately claim a personal encounter with the incarnate Christ eating and drinking with them face to face and teaching in their streets, and that was the first century generation of Israelites.

It was THESE Israelite tribes of the land of Israel (tes ges) that would be the “every eye”  of those tribes who pierced Him that would witness His physical return.  And that return was done in the same glorified body in which Christ ascended from the Mount of Olives.  And to the very same mountain location also,  according to Zechariah 14:4-5. 

If you’re wanting me to give a translation that makes the “every eye” term limited to only those who pierced Him, you have already given some of them yourself above when they translate “Kai” as “EVEN they which pierced Him”.  The word “Even” means “namely” in this text.  Vines Greek NT dictionary lists the various uses of this word “Kai”, and acknowledges that it is possible that it can be used in an “epexegetic or explanatory” manner when followed by a noun in apposition.  While not the more common occurrence, yet there are other examples in scripture besides Rev. 1:7 where “Kai” cannot be used as a normal conjunction meaning “in addition to”.  Do you need some of these other scripture examples that show “Kai” being used in an explanatory sense instead of meaning “also”?

Even the KJV INSERTS  the word “also” in italics, which leads you to misunderstand that this witness of Christ’s return extended also to the entire world “...and every eye shall see him, and (kai) they” (also) “which pierced him...”

If you can’t tell by now, I am VERY, VERY serious about the fine print in scripture.  So much of my understanding from my former training I have had to trash, simply because I skipped over the smaller details and gave no regard to the original languages, the time markers, and the particular audience relevance of whom the books were written to in the first place.  Makes all the difference in the world.

It seems you are not in fact concerned with detail at all, accepting such detail may be applied to the preconceived ideas of the interpretation of scripture and prophecy you have chosen. You reject completely one of the basic truths of old covenant prophecy foretold, and undeniable new covenant principles fully established in scripture. That is the transition of application of God’s promises, prophecies, gospel, and salvation from the literal and local nation of Israel and her neighbors and enemies, to the universal application of all Christ’s followers the world over as spiritual Israel of the new covenant, and all the rest of the world as spiritual Babylon’s adherents to be called out of the same. Those responding correctly becoming Christ’s own, and those rejecting becoming the enemies of God and His followers in this new covenant global era.

You are the one restricting God’s word and prophecies to the very narrow, limited, and closed minded vision of the flesh. Nevertheless, the Spirit has made the truth known, plain and simple within God’s word.

Gen 18:18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? 19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

Gen 22:15 And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, 16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son: 17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; 18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Gen 26:3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father; 4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; 5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.


Mt 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Mt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Lk 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 And ye are witnesses of these things.


Get a grip man. Stop stifling and restricting the Holy Spirit of God by confining the interpretation of His word and prophecies to your own narrow limited and chosen box of reality. The gospel of Jesus Christ represented and preserved during the old covenant through literal Israel and the types and symbols employed by instruction of God representing and revealing the same, were alway meant to be applied globally and universally in this world in and through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. As testified in both the old and new testaments.

The gospel of Jesus Christ itself presenting a moment of decision to every person ever hearing it. With real live personal, communal, national, and global effect. Which gospel the enemy of all souls has always battled the effects of in this world, and continues to do so now and to the end, with real live personal, communal, national, and global effect. As scripture itself testifies, which you and yours are denying in your war against these plain testimonies of scripture. Biblical prophecy pertaining to the whole world are in fact speaking of the whole world, as even old testament prophecies  make abundantly clear. Observe the following old testament prophecy concerning Babylon, and the wine which the Lord will make all nations who reject Him drink from. Understand the most obvious dual nature of this prophecy reaching to the end and effecting all nations up to Christ’s return. 

Jer 25:12 And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans, and will make it perpetual desolations. 13 And I will bring upon that land all my words which I have pronounced against it, even all that is written in this book, which Jeremiah hath prophesied against all the nations. 14 For many nations and great kings shall serve themselves of them also: and I will recompense them according to their deeds, and according to the works of their own hands. 15 For thus saith the LORD God of Israel unto me; Take the wine cup of this fury at my hand, and cause all the nations, to whom I send thee, to drink it. 16 And they shall drink, and be moved, and be mad, because of the sword that I will send among them. 17 Then took I the cup at the LORD'S hand, and made all the nations to drink, unto whom the LORD had sent me: 18 To wit, Jerusalem, and the cities of Judah, and the kings thereof, and the princes thereof, to make them a desolation, an astonishment, an hissing, and a curse; as it is this day; 19 Pharaoh king of Egypt, and his servants, and his princes, and all his people; 20 And all the mingled people, and all the kings of the land of Uz, and all the kings of the land of the Philistines, and Ashkelon, and Azzah, and Ekron, and the remnant of Ashdod, 21 Edom, and Moab, and the children of Ammon, 22 And all the kings of Tyrus, and all the kings of Zidon, and the kings of the isles which are beyond the sea, 23 Dedan, and Tema, and Buz, and all that are in the utmost corners, 24 And all the kings of Arabia, and all the kings of the mingled people that dwell in the desert, 25 And all the kings of Zimri, and all the kings of Elam, and all the kings of the Medes, 26 And all the kings of the north, far and near, one with another, and all the kingdoms of the world, which are upon the face of the earth: and the king of Sheshach shall drink after them. 27 Therefore thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Drink ye, and be drunken, and spue, and fall, and rise no more, because of the sword which I will send among you. 28 And it shall be, if they refuse to take the cup at thine hand to drink, then shalt thou say unto them, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Ye shall certainly drink. 29 For, lo, I begin to bring evil on the city which is called by my name, and should ye be utterly unpunished? Ye shall not be unpunished: for I will call for a sword upon all the inhabitants of the earth, saith the LORD of hosts. 30 Therefore prophesy thou against them all these words, and say unto them, The LORD shall roar from on high, and utter his voice from his holy habitation; he shall mightily roar upon his habitation; he shall give a shout, as they that tread the grapes, against all the inhabitants of the earth. 31 A noise shall come even to the ends of the earth; for the LORD hath a controversy with the nations, he will plead with all flesh; he will give them that are wicked to the sword, saith the LORD. 32 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Behold, evil shall go forth from nation to nation, and a great whirlwind shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth. 33 And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground. 34 Howl, ye shepherds, and cry; and wallow yourselves in the ashes, ye principal of the flock: for the days of your slaughter and of your dispersions are accomplished; and ye shall fall like a pleasant vessel. 35 And the shepherds shall have no way to flee, nor the principal of the flock to escape. 36 A voice of the cry of the shepherds, and an howling of the principal of the flock, shall be heard: for the LORD hath spoiled their pasture. 37 And the peaceable habitations are cut down because of the fierce anger of the LORD.

Again, get a grip man. Even the old testament dual prophecy concerning Babylon and her wine is unquestionably global in nature involving all of the nations of this earth. Will you now still deny this and insist that these prophecies pertain only to the kings and priests of Israel, when the above one specifically names so many other nations and their kings and then all nations? If so, you have no one to blame but yourself concerning the acceptance of the Preterist deception. Are you not therefore choosing the wine and deceptions of Babylon the great which the Lord Himself has chosen? Yes you are.

Isa 66:1 Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest? 2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word. 3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations. 4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not. 5 Hear the word of the LORD, ye that tremble at his word; Your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, Let the LORD be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed. 6 A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the LORD that rendereth recompence to his enemies.

All who choose their own ways and abominations above God’s word and instruction are deceived. God Himself will choose their delusions and bring their own fears upon them. Why do you drink the wine from the cup of Babylon? Why do you offer it to others in your false Preterist teachings. Repent, come out of Babylon, and warn others of their need to do the same.

Rev 18:1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. 2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. 3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. 4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. 5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

« Last Edit: Sun Jan 24, 2021 - 16:20:55 by Amo »

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #39 on: Sun Jan 24, 2021 - 17:33:48 »
Amo, let me repeat this.  You are creating a lot of straw men out of what I have written and are pouring out wasted effort in fighting what you perceive as my position.   

You keep saying I deny certain things, when I haven’t done so in many cases.  It’s rather difficult to wade through the mounds of verses and commentary you are heaping up to get to your main point.  Are you trying to bury the opposition with so much verbiage that it’s hopeless to respond?  Many of the texts you are typing out I have no difference of opinion from you.  Yet you are throwing them out there as if to challenge me with them.

I’m a simple person.  High school diploma only from all Christian schools from kindergarten up.  God reveals His truths to babes and hides them from the wise and prudent.  This is encouraging in my case.  I would have been one of the “common people” who gladly heard Christ.

I know that scripture prophecy has layers of meaning, with certain lessons within them that are pertinent to every generation - not rejecting this.  But neither can I deny the initial prophetic fulfillment as applicable to the ones first receiving it.  This is what it seems you are doing.  It seems that you are flushing ALL the particular time markers that come with those prophecies.  Words like “NOW hath he promised...”.  “SHORTLY” something was going to take place.  Something was “ABOUT TO” occur.   The devil knowing he had only a “SHORT TIME” back then to deceive the nations.  Etc..  Simple people like myself to whom these types of words were written were not deluded to believe those NEAR events would SOON be transpiring in their own experience.  Which would make them already fulfilled.

It takes a brainiac to extend these very simple time qualifiers into something that will happen on a continual basis throughout all of history into the distant future.  This entirely disenfranchises the original audience receiving those prophecies with specific time markers in them.  Are you trying to eliminate those people from their own prophecies just so you can feel more included?  This appears selfish, though I know you don’t mean to be.
« Last Edit: Sun Jan 24, 2021 - 19:17:36 by 3 Resurrections »

Offline Amo

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #40 on: Fri Jan 29, 2021 - 11:03:34 »
Amo, let me repeat this.  You are creating a lot of straw men out of what I have written and are pouring out wasted effort in fighting what you perceive as my position.   

You keep saying I deny certain things, when I haven’t done so in many cases.  It’s rather difficult to wade through the mounds of verses and commentary you are heaping up to get to your main point.  Are you trying to bury the opposition with so much verbiage that it’s hopeless to respond?  Many of the texts you are typing out I have no difference of opinion from you.  Yet you are throwing them out there as if to challenge me with them.

I’m a simple person.  High school diploma only from all Christian schools from kindergarten up.  God reveals His truths to babes and hides them from the wise and prudent.  This is encouraging in my case.  I would have been one of the “common people” who gladly heard Christ.

I know that scripture prophecy has layers of meaning, with certain lessons within them that are pertinent to every generation - not rejecting this.  But neither can I deny the initial prophetic fulfillment as applicable to the ones first receiving it.  This is what it seems you are doing.  It seems that you are flushing ALL the particular time markers that come with those prophecies.  Words like “NOW hath he promised...”.  “SHORTLY” something was going to take place.  Something was “ABOUT TO” occur.   The devil knowing he had only a “SHORT TIME” back then to deceive the nations.  Etc..  Simple people like myself to whom these types of words were written were not deluded to believe those NEAR events would SOON be transpiring in their own experience.  Which would make them already fulfilled.

It takes a brainiac to extend these very simple time qualifiers into something that will happen on a continual basis throughout all of history into the distant future.  This entirely disenfranchises the original audience receiving those prophecies with specific time markers in them.  Are you trying to eliminate those people from their own prophecies just so you can feel more included?  This appears selfish, though I know you don’t mean to be.

I don't even have a high school diploma my friend. Someone stole all the school books out of my locker which amounted to hundreds of dollars which we did not have to pay, and the school would not give me my diploma without paying for them. So I never got one, nor have I ever really cared. I don't know how I graduated anyway. I started smoking cigarettes and drinking when I was eight, smoking dope when I was nine, and spent most of my childhood educated years from that time forward under the influence of whatever drugs were available at the time. I put the very least effort possible into school, yet somehow actually graduated, go figure. My conversion took place over several years after being personally introduced to God through a children's book about him my Mom brought home from the dentist office where she worked, and was publicly confessed by baptism many years later while I was in the military with a drug free and cleared up mind. My true education began only after I came to know and fear God. As all true education does.

Pro 1:1 The proverbs of Solomon the son of David, king of Israel; 2 To know wisdom and instruction; to perceive the words of understanding; 3 To receive the instruction of wisdom, justice, and judgment, and equity; 4 To give subtilty to the simple, to the young man knowledge and discretion. 5 A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels: 6 To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings. 7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Psa 111:1 Praise ye the LORD. I will praise the LORD with my whole heart, in the assembly of the upright, and in the congregation. 2 The works of the LORD are great, sought out of all them that have pleasure therein. 3 His work is honourable and glorious: and his righteousness endureth for ever. 4 He hath made his wonderful works to be remembered: the LORD is gracious and full of compassion. 5 He hath given meat unto them that fear him: he will ever be mindful of his covenant. He hath shewed his people the power of his works, that he may give them the heritage of the heathen. 7 The works of his hands are verity and judgment; all his commandments are sure. 8 They stand fast for ever and ever, and are done in truth and uprightness. 9 He sent redemption unto his people: he hath commanded his covenant for ever: holy and reverend is his name. 10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.


Everything I have written has been in response to exact points of that which you have posted. You keep saying I don't know what you believe, are you not posting what you believe? I am addressing what you have posted, which I assume is what you believe. Is it not?

The long term nature of biblical prophecy, is revealed all throughout scripture. Your claim that it had to have immediate interpretation and effect of fulfillment simply is not biblical. The first prophecy concerning Christ is found in Genesis immediately after the fall, followed by many other prophecies throughout the old testament ranging from hundreds to thousands of years concerning their fulfillment. All the details of which have not been fulfilled yet. You are simply wrong in declaring biblical prophecy demands rapid fulfillment and interpretation, especially when dual interpretation is applied, which it most certainly is meant to be at times.

Even your shared Preterist interpretations, were not fully developed until many centuries after the events you are claiming fulfill them. Nor do I believe there is any written record from those actually going through the events Preterists claim were the fulfillment of the prophecies of the book of Revelation, by them confirming such. It was all made up long after the events transpired, and no one at the time believed they were going through the fulfillment of what Preterists now claim. The Historicist interpretation of biblical prophecy is however, many times backed up by the personal testimony of Christians actually going through the events they believed were the fulfillment of said prophecies. Those of the past who were literally persecuted, imprisoned, tortured, burned at the stake, and killed enmass by Catholic priests, kings, queens, and royalty, did correctly identify these perpetrators as Babylon the Great and the system of anti-christ. Eventually writing volumes addressing her incessant abuses and false soul damning doctrines and ceremonies. Why do you reject their personal testimony and those who back the same up today as those prophecies continue in significance, for interpretations denying all of the same, which no one believed at the very time of their supposed fulfillment? Or do you reject the same? It seems so, when you suggest these historical interpretations are wrong, and then present Preterist interpretations as right.

If there is proof that Christians beleived as Preterists now preach, before, shortly after, and for the first few centuries after 70AD, please do present such. Then perhaps we can go from there. I can and will easily present such from the historicist view of prophecy. Thank you.

« Last Edit: Fri Jan 29, 2021 - 11:13:10 by Amo »

Offline Amo

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #41 on: Sat Jan 30, 2021 - 09:43:41 »
3Res. -
Quote
Amo, you aren’t paying attention to the language about the seat of the Dragon which he gave to the Sea Beast.  That seat or throne was just given to the Sea Beast alone.  Satan the Dragon did NOT give his own seat in Pergamos to Mystery Babylon riding the Scarlet Beast in the wilderness - just to the Sea Beast that in John’s days had a 666-year-old biographical history that had existed ever since the first lion kingdom, led by Nebuchadnezzar.

 You may think the Sea Beast was not yet in existence in John’s days, but that Rev. 13 list of “leopard, bear, and lion” features for the Sea Beast shows us it had existed as early as Nebuchadnezzar’s “lion” empire.


It is not the sea beast that existed in Nebuchadnezzar's empire, but the dragon with seven heads, who is the devil. 1. The lion, 2. the bear, 3. the leopard, 4. the diverse beast, 5. the sea beast, 6. the earth beast, 7. and finely the resurrected sea beast, are the seven heads of the dragon. They are Satan's counterfeit kingdoms in rebellion against God's kingdom in relation to His people on this earth. The seventh is also an eighth and one of the seven because the Vatican was made a literal nation state of this world during her illicit relations with Fascism by the earthly power of Mussolini. While she maintained illicit relationships with Fascists Hitler and Francisco Franco as well.

The Roman Catholic Church was conceived amidst the competition of various apostate "Christian" factions vying for position along side of and supported by the Roman state. She was the victor in these struggles to enter into spiritually adulterous relations with the kings of this earth. Thus she succeeded in joining herself to the power of the first supposed "Christian" emperor, who established her as the official state church. Her power has, does, and will always continue to come from her illicit relations with the powers that be of this world. They do not come from Christ or scripture, but rather from below. As they do to this day. She now has illicit relations with more of the kings of this earth than at any time before in her history, including major control and influence in these United States. She is right in the middle of the establishment of the global government the scriptures predict immediately before our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ's return.

The dragon, in the powers that be of this earth from below, did give his power and seat to Babylon the Great, the Roman church. As her own even proudly testify of in acquiring the title of Pontifex Maximus from earthly authorities.


http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/apologetics/a104.htm

Quoted article below from link above.

Quote
The Title Pontifex Maximus

This explains the origin of the title "Pontifex Maximus" for the Papacy, written by Mark Bonocore

Title "Pontifex Maximus" or "Supreme Pontiff"

<< One of the most amazing aspects about the ascendancy of the papacy is that the church of Rome promotes the pope as the "Pontifex Maximus" or, Supreme Pontiff. The title Pontifex Maximus is mentioned numerous times by the early church fathers (particularly by Tertullian), but it was not applied to a Christian bishop. The early church fathers say that the Pontifex Maximus was the "King of Heathendom", the evil high priest of the pagan mystery religion of Rome. It is certainly not likely that Christ appointed Peter "Pontifex Maximus" of Rome. >>

Of course Christ didn't appoint Peter to be the Pontifex Maximus. And of course the early Church Fathers spoke of the Pontifex Maximus in such derogatory, paganistic ways. Because when the early Fathers were writing, the Pontifex Maximus was the head of the Roman pagan religion, and the Roman Empire itself was pagan. As any student of Roman history knows, the Pontifex Maximus was an imperial office, usually held by the Emperor himself, which made one the "chief priest" of the Roman "state cult."

Now as I said, in the days of the early Fathers, this "state cult" was paganism and Emperor worship. Yet, when Constantine the Great became the first Christian Roman Emperor, the "state cult" changed to Christianity. Now, oddly enough, the first Christian emperors all still retained the title of Pontifex Maximus (a traditional title for Emperors) which, under imperial law (though not Church law), actually made them the "Head of the Church" ! It was by this authority, for example, that Constantine called the Council of Nicaea (325 AD) to settle the Arian controversy.

Indeed, it was not until the Empire split in two, with the Western Empire going to the pious, youthful Emperor Gratian (c. 360 AD) that the Pope was given the title Pontifex Maximus. Indeed, feeling that it was not right for he himself to carry that title (since he was, after all, not a Christian priest) the pious young Emperor bestowed it upon Pope Damasus I, who became the first Pope in history to hold the title "Pontifex Maximus."

Yet, this was only a legal title; and the Popes didn't pay much attention to it at the time, but continued to maintain that their authority came from the Apostle Peter and Peter alone. It was not until the Popes began to conflict with several heretical Eastern Emperors (who, by the way, never relinquished the title "Pontifex Maximus" in the Eastern Empire) that the Popes began asserting their legal authority under imperial law.

This is why the Pope is referred to as the "Pontifex Maximus" or "Supreme Pontiff" today, and not because of any carry-over from paganism. Just as there were pagan Emperors and Christian Emperors, just as there are pagan kings and Christian kings, so there are pagan Pontiffs and Christian Pontiffs. Our critic's anti-Catholic prejudice prevents him from appreciating this.

As for Tertullian's reference to Pontifex Maximus (cited by our critic above), this is most interesting indeed since, despite our critic's spin on things, it is a powerful proof for the authority of the early Roman Papacy. As already described by both the author and myself, Tertullian was (at the time) a Montanist heretic who clashed with Pope Callistus I (c. 220 AD) over Callistus' relaxation of the Church's penitential discipline, allowing repentant adulterers and fornicators back into the Church, even if they were "repeat offenders."

Now, as our critic pointed out, Callistus cited his Petrine authority to "bind and loosen" to validate his decree. In response, the heretical Tertullian has this to say:

"In opposition to this [modesty], could I not have acted the dissembler? I hear that there has even been an edict sent forth, and a peremptory one too. The 'Pontifex Maximus,' that is the 'bishop of bishops,' issues an edict: 'I remit, to such as have discharged [the requirements of] repentance, the sins both of adultery and of fornication.' O edict, on which cannot be inscribed, 'Good deed!' ...Far, far from Christ's betrothed be such a proclamation!" (On Modesty 1, Ante-Nicene Fathers IV:74)

Now Tertullian is obviously being sarcastic in calling Pope Callistus by such names as "bishop of bishops" and "Pontifex Maximus" -- both of these titles, as I said, being imperial pagan ones at this time (c. 220 AD). However, the mere fact that Tertullian (a heretic) is referring to the Pope this way, shows that Pope Callistus wielded authority outside of his own bishopric and throughout the universal Church.

Indeed, Tertullian continues to criticize Pope Callistus, saying:

"I now inquire into your opinions, to see whence you usurp the right for the Church. Do you presume, because the Lord said to Peter, 'On this rock I will build my Church ...[Matt 16-19]' that the power of binding and loosing has thereby been handed over to you, that is, to every church akin to that of Peter? What kind of man are you, subverting and changing what was the manifest intent of the Lord when He conferred this personally on Peter? 'On you,' He says, 'I will build my Church; and I give to you the keys'...." (Tertullian, On Modesty 21:9-10)

So, what does this tell us? While Tertullian (a Montanist heretic, who at this time did not recognize Apostolic succession or any Church authority) criticizes it, the fact is clear that here in 220 AD, Pope Callistus is claiming authority based on his direct succession from St. Peter and using that authority to change a Church discipline that remained changed from then on. This fact cannot be avoided. In other words, the view of the heretic Tertullian was not the view of the rest of the universal Church.


She received this title of ancient paganism from the authorities or powers that be of this earth. She is of this earth. Her power is and always has been the power of the various states of this world, not the Holy Spirit of God.

https://amazingdiscoveries.org/S-deception_Pontifex_Maximus_Babylon

Quoted article below from link above.

Quote
The papal title Pontifex Maximus can be traced back in different forms to the ancient Chaldean times. When Medo-Persia conquered Babylon, the Babylonian religion was maintained, but after a revolt of the priesthood, the priests of Babylon were driven out of Medo-Persia, and established themselves at Pergamum, taking with them their titles and vestures.

The last pontiff king of Pergamum was Attalus III, who bequeathed his title to the emperor of Rome in 133 BC. In the fourth century AD, Christian emperor Gratian refused the title, and in the year 431 AD, the title was taken over by Damascus, bishop of Rome. Read about how these events fit into Biblical prophecy

The present-day college of cardinals with the Pope at the head is identical to the college of pontiffs with the Pontifex Maximus at the head.

The keys that the Pope wears around his neck are not the keys of Peter. Rather, they date back from Babylonian times, when it was supposed that this representative of God had the power to unlock heaven or hell.

A statement about the Pope’s position is found in William Barry's The Papal Monarchy:

The Pax Romana (Roman peace) has ceased; it is a universal confusion. But wherever a Bishop holds his court, religion protects all that is left of the ancient order. A new Rome ascends slowly above the horizon...

The Emperor is no more...but the Pontifex Maximus abides; he is now the Vicar of Christ, offering the old civilisation to the tribes of the North. He converts them to his creed, and they serve him as Father and Judge supreme (emphases added).i


The power of the sea beast is being reestablished on a global scale as we discuss these prophecies. The federal government of these United States is filled with her adherents who have a duty to establish her social doctrines and teachings through legislation in their perspective countries or fields. All three branches of our government created to maintain a balance of power, are now dominated by her adherents including now only the second Catholic President. Deny all you wish, it is happening right in front of your own, and everyone else's face. So be it.


Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #42 on: Sat Jan 30, 2021 - 11:14:28 »
Hey Amo...not much time, since I have work orders on the table needing attention...

Did you ever consider that God has DELIBERATELY allowed this prevalence of Catholic influence as a JUDGMENT on the world at large?  A world that has elevated child sacrifice of the unborn to a sacred right? 

Think about it.  Catholicism has predominantly been openly opposed to abortion at any stage.  This is actually an echo of God’s mind on the matter.  Since the nations of this world by supporting abortion have rejected this original commandment in the Garden of Eden to “be fruitful and multiply”, why would God not allow the influence of the Catholic Church to prevail, if only to discourage the murder of the unborn?

Ummm, and it was NOT the 666-year old Rev. 13 Sea Beast that was to be resurrected; it was the Rev. 17 Scarlet Beast found in the wilderness instead that had a fluctuating existence of “WAS”, then “IS NOT”, “IS”, and “ABOUT TO ARISE”.  This Scarlet Beast is the one that John said was about to go into destruction in HIS days, after it would briefly arise to existence in John’s near future.  You are confusing the 3 Beasts mentioned in Revelation.  They all have differing features and biographies distinct from each other.  This is a common mistake made, so you are by no means alone in your viewpoint.

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #43 on: Sat Jan 30, 2021 - 12:03:20 »
Hey Amo...not much time, since I have work orders on the table needing attention...

Did you ever consider that God has DELIBERATELY allowed this prevalence of Catholic influence as a JUDGMENT on the world at large?  A world that has elevated child sacrifice of the unborn to a sacred right? 

Think about it.  Catholicism has predominantly been openly opposed to abortion at any stage.  This is actually an echo of God’s mind on the matter.  Since the nations of this world by supporting abortion have rejected this original commandment in the Garden of Eden to “be fruitful and multiply”, why would God not allow the influence of the Catholic Church to prevail, if only to discourage the murder of the unborn?



I have been sitting this one out until this.

Ephesians 1:18 springs to mind.  Your eyes are not opened. Your reasoning is flawed.

You have a Catholic president, who has met with the Pope. This president has just signed an order for the US to pay for abortions abroad and in non citizens.

This is one reason God is staying out of this "end times" mix.

Now, carry on boys.

« Last Edit: Sat Jan 30, 2021 - 12:15:17 by Rella »

Offline Amo

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #44 on: Sat Jan 30, 2021 - 14:40:12 »
Hey Amo...not much time, since I have work orders on the table needing attention...

Did you ever consider that God has DELIBERATELY allowed this prevalence of Catholic influence as a JUDGMENT on the world at large?  A world that has elevated child sacrifice of the unborn to a sacred right? 

Think about it.  Catholicism has predominantly been openly opposed to abortion at any stage.  This is actually an echo of God’s mind on the matter.  Since the nations of this world by supporting abortion have rejected this original commandment in the Garden of Eden to “be fruitful and multiply”, why would God not allow the influence of the Catholic Church to prevail, if only to discourage the murder of the unborn?

Ummm, and it was NOT the 666-year old Rev. 13 Sea Beast that was to be resurrected; it was the Rev. 17 Scarlet Beast found in the wilderness instead that had a fluctuating existence of “WAS”, then “IS NOT”, “IS”, and “ABOUT TO ARISE”.  This Scarlet Beast is the one that John said was about to go into destruction in HIS days, after it would briefly arise to existence in John’s near future.  You are confusing the 3 Beasts mentioned in Revelation.  They all have differing features and biographies distinct from each other.  This is a common mistake made, so you are by no means alone in your viewpoint.

There is no question but that the Roman Catholic church, Babylon the Great, was chosen by God Himself to bring about the end. I have already shared the scripture with you that declares that God Himself has chosen the delusions those who reject Him will believe. This is the institution and deceptions God has allowed the dragon to use. Try as any might, no one can escape God's complete control of all, even when allowing complete freedom to all. No one can surprise God, or do anything He cannot or has not already anticipated.

Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, 11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24  Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.


God will once again be all in all, without any rebellion or contention anywhere ever again concerning His proven rightful authority and place as first in all things. Which issue He resolves without forcing anyone to accept His rightful authority over all. Though He will surely punish evil among those who have not accepted the salvation He has offered from the same.

There is no 666 year old sea beast but within your own imagination. The number 666 has nothing to do with the age of one of the beasts of biblical prophecy.

Rev 13:18  Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

It is the number of a man, the man of sin. Not the age of a beast. It is the sea beast which receives and mortal wound from which it is healed.

Rev 13:1  And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. 2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. 3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. 4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? 5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. 6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. 7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. 8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. 9 If any man have an ear, let him hear. 10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

A mortal wound is a deadly wound. Being healed from a mortal wound is being resurrected. The above sea beast with seven heads and ten horns and the name of blasphemy receives a mortal wound which gets healed. The beast is resurrected. The woman of Revelation 17, Babylon the Great, rides this seven headed, ten horned beast fullmof the names of blasphemy again. Revelation 17 is about this beasts resurrection.

Rev 17:3  So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

As the Church of Rome rode the first beast of Revelation 13 in forming the Holy Roman Empire, so she is riding the ever rising and resurrected power of this beast again on a global scale under her guiding influence and control.

Rev 17:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns. 17 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

The sea beast is the only beast that was, then was not because of the mortal wound it received, and now is rising out of the bottomless pit to be once again. It was after the sea beast received a deadly wound which was healed, that all the world wondered after it in revelation 13. Revelation 17 is describing that healing, which is why it also say all the world wonders after this beast that was, is not, and yet is. Revelation 17 finishes the prophecies of 13, adding more details of identification. All the world wonders after the first beast of revelation 13 and 17 after the second beast of 13 helps heal its deadly wound. Which is what is taking place right now in these United States under ever increasing Catholic leadership. The political aspirations of Roman Catholicism are increasingly becoming the political aspirations of the governments and countries of this world through her unending manipulations of the same. Denial of this will not stop it. To the contrary it, it contributes to the chaos and confusion bringing it on.


Offline Amo

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #45 on: Sat Jan 30, 2021 - 14:45:54 »
I have been sitting this one out until this.

Ephesians 1:18 springs to mind.  Your eyes are not opened. Your reasoning is flawed.

You have a Catholic president, who has met with the Pope. This president has just signed an order for the US to pay for abortions abroad and in non citizens.

This is one reason God is staying out of this "end times" mix.

Now, carry on boys.

Yes, as is obvious, and as I have already pointed out many times over, the Church of Rome is willing to go even against her own teachings to unify with politicians who support her greater political agenda. She has done this all throughout her history. She washes their hands, and in turn they wash hers.

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #46 on: Sat Jan 30, 2021 - 17:59:36 »
Amo, you’re missing the fine print again.  It is a HEAD on the Rev. 13 Sea Beast that receives a wound as it were unto death.  Heads were a particular individual component of the Sea Beast - NOT the entire Beast that was wounded.  And if HEADS for the other Rev. 17 Scarlet Beast were interpreted by the angel as 7 MOUNTAINS, then this wounded head is a catastrophe regarding another comparable set of 7 MOUNTAINS that the Rev. 13 Sea Beast sat upon.   

Rome’s deadly AD 64 fire during Nero’s reign was a catastrophe that devastated the physical city that sat upon seven hills.  Supplies had to be shipped in for the survival of Rome’s citizens, until Nero’s massive rebuilding program could be initiated.  To bring Rome’s infrastructure back to life again so soon after such a crushing disaster was indeed a cause for the earth to marvel.  Nero took advantage of the disaster to build his incredible “Golden House” and his mammoth “Colossus of Nero”.  This rebuilding program healed the deadly wound to the city, and kept the empire in power.

This Sea Beast,(represented at that time by the power of Rome), while under Nero, was going “to make war with the saints” for the  duration of a literal 42 months between late AD 64 after the fire and just before Nero’s death in AD 68.  The Christians were blamed for starting the fire at Rome, and Nero made martyrs of them during that 42 months to deflect the blame from himself, since he was suspected of burning Rome purposefully.

This was the same ongoing “fiery trial” that I Peter 4:12 was giving encouragement to believers experiencing the beginning part of those 42 months of persecution (written around AD 64), when Peter said that “the end of all things is at hand” (I Peter 4:7).

The emperor who imprisoned and held captive the believers and who killed Paul by the sword of execution would himself be driven from his fabulous Golden House, cornered like a rat, and die with a sword in his own neck in AD 68, as Rev. 13:10 foretold.

The Sea Beast with its “calculated number” of 666 YEARS is indeed the calculated age of Daniel’s STATUE OF A *MAN*, incorporating all those 4 different empires within a single male image.  As the Sea Beast’s first empire under Nebuchadnezzar, that “lion” representing Nebuchadnezzar’s empire was made to “stand upon the feet AS A *MAN*, and A *MAN’S* HEART WAS GIVEN UNTO IT” (Dan. 7:4). 

666 YEARS is the calculated numbered age of this image of a *MAN*, as of the time John was writing Revelation.  Totally different subject from the “Man of Lawlessness”.  You are conflating the two different subjects and mistakenly merging them into one.

Offline RB

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #47 on: Sun Jan 31, 2021 - 03:56:30 »
I would like to jump in, but it has gone too far since I last posted, so I may one day soon start my own thread on Revelation 13, 17, and 18. Carry on....RB

Offline Amo

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #48 on: Sat Feb 06, 2021 - 19:22:23 »
3 Res. -
Quote
Amo, you’re missing the fine print again.  It is a HEAD on the Rev. 13 Sea Beast that receives a wound as it were unto death.  Heads were a particular individual component of the Sea Beast - NOT the entire Beast that was wounded.  And if HEADS for the other Rev. 17 Scarlet Beast were interpreted by the angel as 7 MOUNTAINS, then this wounded head is a catastrophe regarding another comparable set of 7 MOUNTAINS that the Rev. 13 Sea Beast sat upon.

I’m not the one missing the point. Chapter twelve identifies Satan as the dragon with seven heads and ten horns(Rev 12:3-6). He casts water out of his mouth to carry away God’s people(Rev 12:15-17). These waters are the peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues which the whore of Rev 17 sits upon(Rev 17:15), who is Babylon the Great. Rev 13 then brings together and identifies these seven heads of the dragon, which are themselves the beasts and or kingdoms through which Satan rebells against God’s kingdom on this earth. Each beast in its turn representing the Dragon who establishes their power in defiance of God and His people.

Chapter 13 begins by identifying the first four beasts of biblical prophecy, or heads of the dragon, in reverse order as identified in the prophetic book of Daniel. All of these beast are parts and or heads of the dragon, and are therefore identified with the first beast being addressed in Rev 13. The beast has seven heads identifying it with the Dragon, and ten horns which identifies it with the dragon as well, but also the fourth beast of the book of Daniel chapter seven(Dan 7:7&8). Which beast also had ten horns and was dreadful and terrible beyond being symbolized by an animal or beast of the earth. Then it is said to be like unto a leopard which was the third beast of Daniel 7, then a bear which was the second beast of Daniel 7, and then a lion which was the first beast of Daniel seven. Here we are presented in Revelation 13 with the first five beasts of biblical prophecy, which continues to reveal all seven heads of the dragon which are the beasts of biblical prophecy.

1 - Lion - Babylon(Rev 13:2)
2 - Bear - Medo-Persia(Rev 13:2)
3 - Leopard - Grecia(Rev 13:2)
4 - Indescribable beast with ten horns - Pagan Rome(Rev 13:1)
5 - Beast rising out of the sea also indescribable with ten horns - Papal Rome(Rev 13:1-10)
6 - Beast coming up out of the earth with two horns like a lamb - United States(Rev13:11-14)
7 - Resurrected and or healed global sea beast brought back to life by the power of the lamb like beast who ends up speaking like a dragon.(Rev 13:15-18). 

I am not the one ignoring details three resurrections, you are.

The scriptures tell us what the waters and therefore the mountains the woman sits upon are -

Rev 17:15  And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

Yes, the mountains the woman Babylon the Great sits upon are peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues of those who support Satan’s kingdoms of this world which defy God’s kingdom and His people within it. Yes, most of those kingdoms or kings are now fallen and no more. One of them which had fallen though, by receiving a deadly wound, is now being given life again on a global scale by the power of the lamb like beast which now speaks as a dragon. But Satan’s kingdoms or mountains will come to naught, being overcome by God’s kingdom and Holy mountain which Satan himself was kicked out of.

Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. 14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. 16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. 17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. 18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. 19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

So shall be the fate of all who choose to be citizens of one of the counterfeit rebellious kingdoms or mountains which the evil one builds in defiance of the living God and His Holy mountain. They shall take their part in the lake of fire where the devil, beast, those who worship the beast, false prophet, and all whose names are not written in the book of life, and even death and hell will perish(Rev 19:20, 20:10,14,&15). While God’s own will flourish in His everlasting kingdom and mountain which He set up even in the days of the fourth beast of biblical prophecy through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Dan 2:34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. 35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth………..
44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. 45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.


God’s mountain and or kingdom will fill the whole earth while the kingdoms and or mountains of this world, that is of Satan and those who live in defiance of God, will be blown away like chaff in the wind.

Isa 17:12  Woe to the multitude of many people, which make a noise like the noise of the seas; and to the rushing of nations, that make a rushing like the rushing of mighty waters! 13 The nations shall rush like the rushing of many waters: but God shall rebuke them, and they shall flee far off, and shall be chased as the chaff of the mountains before the wind, and like a rolling thing before the whirlwind.

Babylon sits upon the multitude of many people and nations symbolized by the sea, waters, mountains making much noise and rushing toward their end, which is to be chased as the chaff of the mountains before the wind. God will save His people, and they will level the mountains of the wicked, to be blown away like chaff in the wind.

Isa 41:13 For I the LORD thy God will hold thy right hand, saying unto thee, Fear not; I will help thee. 14 Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel. 15 Behold, I will make thee a new sharp threshing instrument having teeth: thou shalt thresh the mountains, and beat them small, and shalt make the hills as chaff. 16 Thou shalt fan them, and the wind shall carry them away, and the whirlwind shall scatter them: and thou shalt rejoice in the LORD, and shalt glory in the Holy One of Israel.

Why will you deny and therefore defy all of these biblical prophetic truths through your Preterist interpretations? Limiting them to relatively few before 70AD, and denying their significance throughout history since then, and for God’s own to this very day. At the same time this is denying prophetic truth meant to guide and aid God’s own on this earth until the end. That they may be prepared themselves, and warn as may others as possible not to take part in the sins of Babylon, but rather to come out of her kingdoms into the kingdom of God unto salvation in Christ Jesus our Lord. Why will you make war against these Biblical truths and God’s people in believing, preaching, and teaching deception?
« Last Edit: Sat Feb 06, 2021 - 19:25:29 by Amo »

Offline Amo

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #49 on: Sat Feb 06, 2021 - 19:27:56 »
3 Res. -
Quote
Rome’s deadly AD 64 fire during Nero’s reign was a catastrophe that devastated the physical city that sat upon seven hills.  Supplies had to be shipped in for the survival of Rome’s citizens, until Nero’s massive rebuilding program could be initiated.  To bring Rome’s infrastructure back to life again so soon after such a crushing disaster was indeed a cause for the earth to marvel.  Nero took advantage of the disaster to build his incredible “Golden House” and his mammoth “Colossus of Nero”.  This rebuilding program healed the deadly wound to the city, and kept the empire in power.

Wait a minute, now you're gong to change your entire argument up to this point, and declare the great city to be Rome instead of Jerusalem as you have been arguing? Which is it? Is the great city Jerusalem or Rome? You can say it is Jerusalem to defend certain aspects of your Preterist interpretations some times, and Rome to do so at other times if you wish of course. I do not see why though, you would expect anyone to take you seriously if you do.

Is Babylon the Great, the great city, Jerusalem or Rome according to your interpretation? If both whenever you choose to make it either, please do explain the rational of such. Thank you.

Offline Amo

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #50 on: Sat Feb 06, 2021 - 19:36:02 »
3 Res. -
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This Sea Beast,(represented at that time by the power of Rome), while under Nero, was going “to make war with the saints” for the duration of a literal 42 months between late AD 64 after the fire and just before Nero’s death in AD 68.  The Christians were blamed for starting the fire at Rome, and Nero made martyrs of them during that 42 months to deflect the blame from himself, since he was suspected of burning Rome purposefully.

This was the same ongoing “fiery trial” that I Peter 4:12 was giving encouragement to believers experiencing the beginning part of those 42 months of persecution (written around AD 64), when Peter said that “the end of all things is at hand” (I Peter 4:7).

The beast which arose from the sea itself represents a kingdom, not the other way around as you have speculated above. Kingdoms of this world do not represent the biblical beasts of prophecy, the beasts themselves represent kingdoms of this world. This is what scripture teaches, not the other way around as your unsound interpretations apparently require.

There were 47 months between the burning of Rome in July 64, and Nero’s death in June 68, not 42. Nor did the burning of Rome cripple the Roman Empire or end it at all. It ended several centuries later. Countless millions more Christians were killed by papal Rome than pagan Rome, over a much longer period of time. As usual, your info and interpretations are historically inaccurate and suspect.

Christians were being persecuted long before Nero’s fire.

Act 7:57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord, 58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul. 59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. 60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
Act 8:1  And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles. 2 And devout men carried Stephen to his burial, and made great lamentation over him. 3 As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison.

Act 26:9 I verily thought with myself, that I ought to do many things contrary to the name of Jesus of Nazareth. 10 Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them. 11 And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities.


Peter’s advice and encouragement was for Christians of all times. Nor did he believe that the end of all things was right around the corner as you suggest, or anything like your Preterist interpretations regarding 70AD as his testimony in 2 Peter makes clear.

2Pe 3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: 2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: 3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

The Apostle Peter was not limited in any way shape or form by your, by your false Preterist interpretations of scripture or prophecy.

Offline Amo

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #51 on: Sat Feb 06, 2021 - 19:44:34 »
3Res. -
Quote
The emperor who imprisoned and held captive the believers and who killed Paul by the sword of execution would himself be driven from his fabulous Golden House, cornered like a rat, and die with a sword in his own neck in AD 68, as Rev. 13:10 foretold.

Not even worth addressing. Beasts are not men, they are kingdoms.

3Res. -
Quote
The Sea Beast with its “calculated number” of 666 YEARS is indeed the calculated age of Daniel’s STATUE OF A *MAN*, incorporating all those 4 different empires within a single male image.  As the Sea Beast’s first empire under Nebuchadnezzar, that “lion” representing Nebuchadnezzar’s empire was made to “stand upon the feet AS A *MAN*, and A *MAN’S* HEART WAS GIVEN UNTO IT” (Dan. 7:4).


More Preterist nonsense. There is no prophecy concerning 666 years or even days which can prophetically mean years. The 666 prophecy is concerning the number of a man, not the years of any prophetic beasts existence.

Rev 13:17  And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. 18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

It is the number of a name, and of a man, probably the number of his name. When a prophecy itself tells you what it means regarding something, why will you then go looking elsewhere for a different meaning and application? Is it not because you wish to avoid where the prophecy really points?

Why will you make the lion beast of the book of Daniel the beast which rises from the sea in the book of Revelation? The beast which rises from the sea has parts of the lion beast within it, not the other way around. Why do your chosen interpretations so often turn things around? There is no mention of a beast rising out of the sea in the book of Daniel. Not concerning the lion beast, or any of the consecutive beasts mentioned after it. Use the scriptures to interpret themselves, don't just pull interpretations out of thin air or twist them around to make scripture fit preconceived ideas or interpretations.

2Pe 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

We know from scripture that the seven headed and ten horned dragon is Satan himself(Rev 12:3&9). We know that the seven mountains, beasts, and kings represent the same things from Revelation 17:9-11.

Rev 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. 10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. 11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

We know that scripture uses the symbols of heads, beasts, and mountains as representing kings or kingdoms.

Dan 2:36 This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king. 37 Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory. 38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.

Rev 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. 10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.


Heads are symbols of kings or kingdoms.

Dan 7:17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth…………………………………………………………
23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

Dan 8:20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia. 21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.


Beasts are symbols of kings or kingdoms.

Rev 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.[ 4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?…………………………………………………
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. 13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, 14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.


Revelation chapter twelve tells us that the dragon who is the devil has seven heads. Heads represent kingdoms. The first beast of Revelation 13 has seven heads as well, denoting that it is the dragon itself being manifested. The dragon itself gives this beast its power(verse 4). One of the heads of the dragon which is this beast, which is tied to the four beasts of Daniel seven in verses 1&2, receives a deadly wound. The healing of this deadly wound to only one of the seven heads of the dragon, is also the healing of this beast because the beast being addressed is the one following Daniel’s four beasts of Biblical prophecy. Which beasts were the kingdoms of Babylon, Medo-Persia, Grecia, and Pagan Rome consecutively, which was followed by Papal Rome(Holy Roman Empire). Which is the fifth beast of biblical prophecy and first beast of the new covenant. The wounded head of the dragon is this beast, as its healing is referred to as the healing of the beast, not just one of its heads(Rev 13:12&14).

The seven heads are the heads of the Dragon, which are the seven beasts or kingdoms through which Satan has continued his rebellion against God on this earth. Each existing in relation to and most often opposed to God’s people on this earth. Who are citizens of His spiritual kingdom on this earth. The seven heads, seven beasts, and seven mountains are the same. They are these seven kingdoms. They are Satan’s counterfeit kingdoms, to God’s eternal kingdom, existing in rebellion against the same. This holds true in particular regarding the symbol of mountains, as God’s city and kingdom are often referred to as His holy mountain(Isa 2:1-3, 11:9, 56:6-8, 66:20-23, Zec 8:3), just to mention a few. Which mountain or kingdom Satan was cast out of, which he attempts to replace with his own in the seven mountains, heads, and beasts of this worlds kingdoms.

Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. 16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

Come out of the kingdoms, beasts, mountains, and governments of this world whom the dragon gives power, and the Harlot sits upon. Come into the Kingdom of Christ, and the Holy mountain of God, in Christ Jesus our Lord. 

Offline Amo

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #52 on: Sat Feb 06, 2021 - 19:49:57 »
Quote
666 YEARS is the calculated numbered age of this image of a *MAN*, as of the time John was writing Revelation.  Totally different subject from the “Man of Lawlessness”.  You are conflating the two different subjects and mistakenly merging them into one.

That’s funny, you telling me that I am conflating two totally different subjects, while you make what scripture says is the number of the beast which is the number of a man, mean the age of the beast in years. Actually it isn’t funny, it is straight up dangerous to your soul. As are all attempts to add or take away from the words of the book of Revelation.

Rev 22:18  For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book. 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

I will leave you with the testimony of those who lived under the thumb of the papacy of the dark ages. Those who actually lived through what your Preterist interpretations of prophecy deny. Unlike your Preterist positions, there are many actual written accounts from those who lived through the correct interpretations of biblical prophecy. Your denial of the papacy being antichrist and the pope being the man of sin means and will certainly mean nothing to these people in the judgment who actually lived through what you deny. The following is some of their testimony, emphasis mine,  excerpted from -

Quote
PROJECT WITTENBERG

Of the Power and Primacy of the Pope
Treatise Compiled by the Theologians
 Assembled at Smalcald, in the
Year 1537

Published in:
Triglot Concordia: The Symbolical Books
of the Ev. Lutheran Church.
(St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1921), pp.503-529.

VII………………………Such superiority is impossible. For it is impossible for one bishop to be the overseer of the churches of the whole world, or for churches situated in the most distant lands to seek ordination [for all their ministers] from one. For it is manifest that the kingdom of Christ is scattered throughout the whole world; and to-day there are many churches in the East which do not seek ordination or confirmation from the Roman bishop [which have ministers ordained neither by the Pope nor his bishops]. Therefore, since such superiority [which the Pope, contrary to all Scripture, arrogates to himself] is impossible, and the churches in the greater part of the world have not acknowledged [nor made use of] it, it is sufficiently apparent that it was not instituted [by Christ, and does not spring from divine law].

XI………………………..The second article is still clearer, that Christ gave to the apostles only spiritual power, i.e., the command to teach the Gospel to announce the forgiveness of sins, to administer the Sacraments, to excommunicate the godless without bodily force [by the Word], and that He did not give the power of the sword, or the right to establish, occupy or confer kingdoms of the world [to set up or depose kings]. For Christ says, Matt. 28, 19. 20: Go ye, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you; also John 20, 21: As My Father hath sent Me, even so send I you.
Now, it is manifest that Christ was not sent to bear the sword or possess a worldly kingdom [rule in a worldly fashion], as He Himself says, John 18, 36: My kingdom is not of this world. And Paul says, 2 Cor. 1, 24: Not for that we have dominion over your faith; and 2 Cor. 10, 4: The weapons of our warfare are not carnal, etc.
Accordingly, that Christ in His passion is crowned with thorns and led forth to be derided in royal purple, this signified that in the future, after His spiritual kingdom was despised, i.e., the Gospel was suppressed, another kingdom of a worldly kind would be set up [in its place] with the pretext of ecclesiastical power. Therefore the Constitution of Boniface VIII and the chapter Omnes, Dist. 22 and similar opinions which contend that the Pope is by divine right the ruler of the kingdoms of the world, are [utterly] false and godless. From this persuasion horrible darkness has been brought into the Church, and after that also great commotions have arisen in Europe. For the ministry of the Gospel was neglected, the knowledge of faith and the spiritual kingdom became extinct, Christian righteousness was supposed to be that external government which the Pope had established.
Next, the Popes began to seize upon kingdoms for themselves; they transferred kingdoms, they vexed with unjust excommunications and wars the kings of almost all nations in Europe, but especially the German emperors, sometimes for the purpose of occupying cities of Italy, at other times for the purpose of reducing to subjection the bishops of Germany, and wresting from the emperors the conferring of episcopates. Yea, in the Clementines it is even written: When the empire is vacant, the Pope is the legitimate successor.
Thus the Pope has not only usurped dominion, contrary to Christ's command, but has also tyrannically exalted himself above all kings. And in this matter the deed itself is not to be reprehended as much as it is to be detested, that he assigns as a pretext the authority of Christ; that he transfers the keys to a worldly government; that he binds salvation to these godless and execrable opinions, when he says it is necessary to salvation for men to believe that this dominion belongs to him by divine right.
Since these great errors obscure [the doctrine of] faith and [of] the kingdom of Christ they are in no way to be concealed. For the result shows that they have been great pests to the Church………………………………………..

Now, it is manifest that the Roman pontiffs, with their adherents, defend [and practice] godless doctrines and godless services. And the marks [all the vices] of Antichrist plainly agree with the kingdom of the Pope and his adherents. For Paul, 2 Ep. 2, 3, in describing to the Thessalonians Antichrist, calls him an adversary of Christ, who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God. He speaks therefore of one ruling in the Church, not of heathen kings, and he calls this one the adversary of Christ, because he will devise doctrine conflicting with the Gospel, and will assume to himself divine authority.
Moreover, it is manifest, in the first place, that the Pope rules in the Church, and by the pretext of ecclesiastical authority and of the ministry has established for himself this kingdom. For he assigns as a pretext these words: I will give to thee the keys. Secondly, the doctrine of the Pope conflicts in many ways with the Gospel, and [thirdly] the Pope assumes to himself divine authority in a threefold manner. First, because he takes to himself the right to change the doctrine of Christ and services instituted by God, and wants his own doctrine and his own services to be observed as divine; secondly, because he takes to himself the power not only of binding and loosing in this life, but also the jurisdiction over souls after this life; thirdly, because the Pope does not want to be judged by the Church or by any one, and puts his own authority ahead of the decision of Councils and the entire Church. But to be unwilling to be judged by the Church or by any one is to make oneself God. Lastly, these errors so horrible, and this impiety, he defends with the greatest cruelty, and puts to death those dissenting.
This being the case, all Christians ought to beware of becoming partakers of the godless doctrine, blasphemies, and unjust cruelty of the Pope. On this account they ought to desert and execrate the Pope with his adherents as the kingdom of Antichrist; just as Christ has commanded,……………………..

Therefore, even though the bishop of Rome had the primacy by divine right, yet since he defends godless services and doctrine conflicting with the Gospel, obedience is not due him; yea, it is necessary to resist him as Antichrist. The errors of the Pope are manifest and not trifling.
Manifest also is the cruelty [against godly Christians] which he exercises. And it is clear that it is God's command that we flee idolatry, godless doctrine, and unjust cruelty. On this account all the godly have great, compelling, and manifest reasons for not obeying the Pope. And these compelling reasons comfort the godly against all the reproaches which are usually cast against them concerning offenses, schism, and discord [which they are said to cause].
But those who agree with the Pope, and defend his doctrine and [false] services, defile themselves with idolatry and blasphemous opinions, become guilty of the blood of the godly, whom the Pope [and his adherents] persecutes, detract from the glory of God, and hinder the welfare of the Church, because they strengthen errors and crimes to all posterity [in the sight of all the world and to the injury of all descendants].

The above quoted excerpts, are just a few selected points of a much more thorough work addressing the abusive power and practice of the papacy during the dark ages. Beside this much more thorough document, there are thousands of other written and recorded by those who actually lived and suffered under the heavy and abusive hand of the papacy and her political minions. This is the history which has been systematically removed from our educational institutions, libraries, and all avenues of public view and discourse by the deliberate purposes of the papacy herself. While she has at the same time revised historical accounts in her favor and introduced false interpretations of biblical prophecy. Including that which you teach and promote. All of this is unto her exaltation once again by the ignorant masses under the thumb of her present evil political counterparts and minions.   

Therefore is she rising again unto the final global beast of biblical prophecy. Which all the damned have, do, and will continue to help facilitate through either abject ignorance, or ungodly knowledgable cooperation.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #53 on: Sun Feb 07, 2021 - 10:44:00 »
Morning Amo,

Let’s make this reeeeeeally simple.  I appreciate how fervent you are in defending your view, but there’s actually no need to identify WHO Mystery Babylon is, as long as we know *WHEN* she was to be destroyed and *BY WHOM*.  Scripture gives us that very specific information in Rev 17:8 and Rev. 17:16.

You say Mystery Babylon is Papal Rome, both historically and in our future.  That’s not even remotely possible because of those two verses above - Rev. 17:8 and 16.

Question: WHO was the agency said to cause Mystery Babylon’s destruction?

Answer: THE 10 HORNS ON THE SCARLET BEAST of Rev. 17:16.  “And the TEN HORNS which thou sawest upon the beast, THESE shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.”  Nothing was to be left of Mystery Babylon after the 10 horns had eaten her and burned her up.  She’s excrement and ashes at that point.

Question: If the 10 horns were to be part of the Scarlet Beast, and to have shared power with it for that “one hour”, then when did that Scarlet Beast itself get destroyed?

Answer:  The entire Scarlet Beast, including its 10 horns and 7 heads, was SOON ABOUT TO BE DESTROYED back in JOHN’S DAYS - not in our future.  “The beast that thou didst see: it was, and it is not; and it IS *ABOUT TO* come up out of the abyss and GO AWAY TO DESTRUCTION...” (YLT).   Both the re-emergence AND THE DESTRUCTION of that Scarlet Beast was SOON about to happen for those living in JOHN’S DAYS - not in our future. 

Many, many translations (about 27 out of 45 at least that I’ve counted to date) have translated this verse correctly using the Greek term “mello” that indicates an imminent event that was ABOUT TO HAPPEN for those reading the prophecy for the first time.

Question: How is it possible for Mystery Babylon to exist AFTER the agency that destroys HER is destroyed itself?  Not possible.  Mystery Babylon doesn’t outlive the Scarlet Beast and its heads and horns.  She was to be destroyed BEFORE the Scarlet Beast was itself destroyed, and THAT was back in the distant past , in JOHN’S DAYS.

We don’t need to go into lengthy discussions and disputes of the identity of these entities - the Scarlet Beast, the horns, and Mystery Babylon.  All that is a moot point if we know WHEN they were all to be destroyed.  And scripture tells us without doubt that this was soon about to happen back in JOHN’S DAYS.




« Last Edit: Sun Feb 07, 2021 - 13:55:50 by 3 Resurrections »

Offline Amo

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #54 on: Sun Feb 07, 2021 - 12:54:57 »
The beast which rises from the sea had ten horns before it received the deadly wound, which were the ten kingdoms of Europe which Babylon the Great rode. When it rises again after the wound is healed it will again  -
Rev 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. 12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. 13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. 14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. 15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. 16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. 17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled. 18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

The ten kings give their power over to the beast for one hour, or until the words of God shall be fulfilled. After God's word has been fulfilled, and they realize they have been deceived to late I might add, they will then turn on the whore Babylon the Great and destroy her. This will not save them though. God will simply allow them to take vengeance against Babylon the Great who deceived them according to their own desires.

At this point though, I will leave you to your chosen deception. You have been supplied with ample evidence of the truth, and can see for yourself what is happening in and to this world if you so desire. God forces the truth upon no one, nor do I desire to do any such thing. Serve your chosen teachers, as I will continue to serve mine.

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #55 on: Sun Feb 07, 2021 - 13:54:55 »
Amo, my “chosen deception” as you call it, is to believe that the Greek term “mello” and its derivative forms truly DO mean that the event spoken of (the death of the Scarlet Beast) was on the NEAR HORIZON for John’s readers in those first-century days. 

Why do you want to discount and blow off the meaning of this word “mello” in the original language in Rev. 17:8?  RB does this because he doesn’t think Greek should even be considered compared to the KJV (which is the only version he relies on), but what’s YOUR reason for ignoring the Greek in Rev. 17:8?

I’ve got to say, your last reply didn’t address my question AT ALL with any kind of explanation or defense. 

This should be a very, very simple question to answer:  How can Mystery Babylon (whatever she represents) OUTLIVE the Scarlet Beast if the Scarlet Beast’s 10 horns are what destroys her BEFORE it is destroyed itself?  The answer is that it’s impossible.  And we are told that the Scarlet Beast in its entirety was “ABOUT TO...GO INTO DESTRUCTION” - in JOHN’S DAYS.  Therefore, Mystery Babylon was eaten and burned up JUST BEFORE that first-century death of the Scarlet Beast.  No more Mystery Babylon after that.

You have invested a vast amount of study to arrive at your position, Amo.  That fact shines clearly throughout your posts.   I respect anyone who has devoted such sincere, intense levels of study of God’s words.  He is most worthy of this devotion, for sure.   But this one question above shoots a hole through your entire paradigm and makes it sink.

Offline Amo

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #56 on: Sat Feb 13, 2021 - 13:03:15 »
Amo, my “chosen deception” as you call it, is to believe that the Greek term “mello” and its derivative forms truly DO mean that the event spoken of (the death of the Scarlet Beast) was on the NEAR HORIZON for John’s readers in those first-century days. 

Why do you want to discount and blow off the meaning of this word “mello” in the original language in Rev. 17:8?  RB does this because he doesn’t think Greek should even be considered compared to the KJV (which is the only version he relies on), but what’s YOUR reason for ignoring the Greek in Rev. 17:8?

I’ve got to say, your last reply didn’t address my question AT ALL with any kind of explanation or defense. 

This should be a very, very simple question to answer:  How can Mystery Babylon (whatever she represents) OUTLIVE the Scarlet Beast if the Scarlet Beast’s 10 horns are what destroys her BEFORE it is destroyed itself?  The answer is that it’s impossible.  And we are told that the Scarlet Beast in its entirety was “ABOUT TO...GO INTO DESTRUCTION” - in JOHN’S DAYS.  Therefore, Mystery Babylon was eaten and burned up JUST BEFORE that first-century death of the Scarlet Beast.  No more Mystery Babylon after that.

You have invested a vast amount of study to arrive at your position, Amo.  That fact shines clearly throughout your posts.   I respect anyone who has devoted such sincere, intense levels of study of God’s words.  He is most worthy of this devotion, for sure.   But this one question above shoots a hole through your entire paradigm and makes it sink.

I Have already addressed all of the above at length in my responses to you. There is a whole lot more to the book of Revelation than just the scarlet beast and mystery Babylon. The book begins by addressing the seven churches. These are the churches of Christ. The prophecies of the book are in relation to Christ's church and her enemies in the world until the end. Those prophecies did in fact begin to unfold within the early church, as the NT itself testifies, and have been continuing ever since. They began to pass within the days of the apostles themselves. Who themselves warned the church of these things which were already transpiring in their day, and the prophecies of the book of Revelation picked up upon and continue until the end.

2Th 2:1  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. 29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. 31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

2Pe 2:1  But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. 3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.


No one question from anybody makes the testimony of the word of God to His church sink. I am not the one between us who has closed my mind to the unending depth of the prophecies of God's word. Who is ignoring a great many details of the book of Revelation concerning things which absolutely have not yet transpired, while also ignoring very much which has transpired, unfolding throughout time in the pages of history. I am not the one who claims to have already totally figured out and comprehends all which God intended to reveal through the prophecies of the book of Revelation. Your reduction of the prophecies of the book of Revelation given to the church to guide her throughout the duration of her existence until the end, to a period of only a few decades, is either ignorant or intentional short sightedness unto a pre determined effect. The word of God though, will not be trapped within your or anyone else's box. It will have the effect He intended without being hindered in any way shape or form by the extremely limited and short sighted imaginations or corrupt purposes of humanity.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away 5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. 6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

The above is most obviously yet future, do you not agree? If not, then please do explain how it has already been fulfilled, that the absurdity of your views may become all the more evident. If you admit that it has not yet happened, then how demand you that all we have been discussing must have happened prior to 70AD. Which is it? Is it all fulfilled or not? If so explain the above in light of that claim please. If not, then admit your claim that all we have been discussing must have transpired before 70AD is faulty. Thank you.
« Last Edit: Sat Feb 13, 2021 - 13:07:28 by Amo »

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #57 on: Sat Feb 13, 2021 - 13:39:08 »
Hi Amo,

Your question about the New Heavens and New Earth is a deflection from answering my last question to you about WHEN the Scarlet Beast and the whore riding it was all destroyed. 

I repeat once again: If Rev. 17:8 said the Scarlet Beast was “*ABOUT TO*...GO INTO DESTRUCTION” back in JOHN’S time, then what possible threat can that Scarlet Beast or the woman riding it be to us today? (Since the 10 horns of the Scarlet Beast were back then about to kill her just before the Scarlet Beast was itself soon to be destroyed.)  What do you think the words “ABOUT TO” actually mean? 

Yes, it’s true that there is much more subject matter in Revelation than the Scarlet Beast or Mystery Babylon.  That’s not the point.  I’m concentrating on one point only for the present, because you are not answering this single question.  I’m trying to make this as simple as I can.  One thing at a time.

Offline Amo

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #58 on: Sat Feb 13, 2021 - 17:30:53 »
Hi Amo,

Your question about the New Heavens and New Earth is a deflection from answering my last question to you about WHEN the Scarlet Beast and the whore riding it was all destroyed. 

I repeat once again: If Rev. 17:8 said the Scarlet Beast was “*ABOUT TO*...GO INTO DESTRUCTION” back in JOHN’S time, then what possible threat can that Scarlet Beast or the woman riding it be to us today? (Since the 10 horns of the Scarlet Beast were back then about to kill her just before the Scarlet Beast was itself soon to be destroyed.)  What do you think the words “ABOUT TO” actually mean? 

Yes, it’s true that there is much more subject matter in Revelation than the Scarlet Beast or Mystery Babylon.  That’s not the point.  I’m concentrating on one point only for the present, because you are not answering this single question.  I’m trying to make this as simple as I can.  One thing at a time.

No deflection, just misunderstanding. I skimmed through your post to fast, and addressed the wrong issue which I have already addressed. Concerning Jesus statement regarding the book of Revelation concerning events shortly coming to pass. My bad.

Rev 17:10  And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

The vision is given from the time and viewpoint of the sixth king. Five have already fallen. We will never agree regarding the time of its existence and effect, while we believe so differently regarding that time. You believe all the beasts, heads, mountains, and kings existed and ended by 70AD. I believe the book of Revelation to be a continuation of the prophecies of the book of Daniel up to the end of this worlds history at Christ's second coming. You believe He already came a second time. We will never see eye to eye.

Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

I do not believe your claim that Christ returned in 70AD. My Lord has defined such as deception.

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #59 on: Sat Feb 13, 2021 - 18:28:43 »
No Amo, you are STILL not concentrating on the single verse I am looking at.

Revelation 17:8, and NOT Rev. 17:10.  Only one phrase in particular in this single verse -  “*ABOUT TO*...GO INTO DESTRUCTION”.  “ABOUT TO” means exactly the same thing today as it did back then when John was writing Revelation.  The Scarlet Beast’s destruction was expected on the very near horizon BACK THEN.   Which means that the death of Mystery Babylon had to take place even BEFORE that near event of the Scarlet Beast’s destruction.

This is very, very simple.  You are bouncing all over the place in your attempt to cover territory that I’m not even touching right now.   This is a very, very simple phrase that anyone can understand from an ordinary definition of these words. 

Why are you trying to redefine what “ABOUT TO” means?  This is not a “box” that I have created to interpret scripture with.  It’s scripture’s own self-limitations, using time indicators put in ordinary language that there is no way to logically avoid.  That is, unless you have an agenda that overrides that very plain language.


Offline Amo

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #60 on: Mon Feb 15, 2021 - 21:54:14 »
No Amo, you are STILL not concentrating on the single verse I am looking at.

Revelation 17:8, and NOT Rev. 17:10.  Only one phrase in particular in this single verse -  “*ABOUT TO*...GO INTO DESTRUCTION”.  “ABOUT TO” means exactly the same thing today as it did back then when John was writing Revelation.  The Scarlet Beast’s destruction was expected on the very near horizon BACK THEN.   Which means that the death of Mystery Babylon had to take place even BEFORE that near event of the Scarlet Beast’s destruction.

This is very, very simple.  You are bouncing all over the place in your attempt to cover territory that I’m not even touching right now.   This is a very, very simple phrase that anyone can understand from an ordinary definition of these words. 

Why are you trying to redefine what “ABOUT TO” means?  This is not a “box” that I have created to interpret scripture with.  It’s scripture’s own self-limitations, using time indicators put in ordinary language that there is no way to logically avoid.  That is, unless you have an agenda that overrides that very plain language.

You are most definitely in a box 3Res. You will not confine me to that box. You will not pull two words out of the context of the chapter they are in, from one bible version you have chosen because it suits your argument, and make me believe it by doing so. Try as you may. Get a grip 3Res. The first four beasts of biblical prophecy found in the book of Daniel, symbolized four separate kingdoms of this earth, spanning many centuries and even embracing Christ's first coming and the end of this world. The three beasts of the book of Revelation did not rise and fall within a few decades but within the box you have submitted your mind to. Here are a few more versions of Rev 17:8 for you to ponder the meaning of.

KJ21
The beast that thou sawest was, and is not, and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit and go into perdition; and they that dwell on the earth, whose names were not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, shall wonder when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

ASV
The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and is about to come up out of the abyss, and to go into perdition. And they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, they whose name hath not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast, how that he was, and is not, and shall come.

AMP
“The beast that you saw was [once], but [now] is not, and he is about to come up out of the abyss (the bottomless pit, the dwelling place of demons) and go to destruction (perdition). And the inhabitants of the earth, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, will be astonished when they see the beast, because he was and is not and is yet to come [to earth].

AMPC
The beast that you saw [once] was, but [now] is no more, and he is going to come up out of the Abyss (the bottomless pit) and proceed to go to perdition. And the inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been recorded in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world will be astonished when they look at the beast, because he [once] was, but [now] is no more, and he is [yet] to come.

BRG
The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

CSB
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up from the abyss and go to destruction. Those who live on the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast that was, and is not, and is to come.

CEB
The beast that you saw was and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. Those who live on earth, whose names haven’t been written in the scroll of life from the time the earth was made, will be amazed when they see the beast, because it was and is not and will again be present.

CJB
The beast you saw once was, now is not, and will come up from the Abyss; but it is on its way to destruction. The people living on earth whose names have not been written in the Book of Life since the founding of the world will be astounded to see the beast that once was, now is not, but is to appear.

CEV
The beast you saw is one that used to be and no longer is. It will come back from the deep pit, but only to be destroyed. Everyone on earth whose names were not written in the book of life before the time of creation will be amazed. They will see this beast that used to be and no longer is, but will be once more.

DARBY
The beast which thou sawest was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go into destruction: and they who dwell on the earth, whose names are not written from the founding of the world in the book of life, shall wonder, seeing the beast, that it was, and is not, and shall be present.

DLNT
The beast which you saw was and is not and is going to come-up out of the abyss. And he goes to destruction. And the ones dwelling upon the earth whose name has not been written on the book of life since the foundation of the world will be caused-to-marvel while seeing the beast, because he was and is not and will be present.

DRA
The beast, which thou sawest, was, and is not, and shall come up out of the bottomless pit, and go into destruction: and the inhabitants on the earth (whose names are not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world) shall wonder, seeing the beast that was, and is not.

ERV
The beast you saw was once alive, but now it is not. However, it will come up out of the bottomless pit and go away to be destroyed. The people who live on the earth will be amazed when they see the beast, because it was once alive, is no longer living, but will come again. These are the people whose names have never been written in the book of life since the beginning of the world.

EHV
The beast that you saw: He existed, is no more, and he is about to come out of the abyss and go to destruction. Those who make their home on the earth, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life from the creation of the world, will be amazed when they see the beast, because he existed, is no more, and will exist again.

ESV
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come.

ESVUK
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come.

EXB
The beast you saw ·was once alive but is not alive now [L was, and is not; 13:3, 12, 14]. But soon it will come up out of the ·bottomless pit [Abyss; 9:1] and go away to ·be destroyed [its destruction]. There are people who live on earth whose names have not been written in the ·book [scroll] of life [3:5] since the ·beginning [foundation; creation] of the world. They will be amazed when they see the beast, because he was ·once alive, is not alive now, but will come again [L was, is not, but is to come; C imitating the divine title of the Lamb (1:18; 2:8) and God (1:4, 8; 4:8)].

GNV
The beast that thou hast seen, was and is not, and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and shall go into perdition, and they that dwell on the earth, shall wonder (whose names are not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world) when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

GW
“You saw the beast which once was, is no longer, and will come from the bottomless pit and go to its destruction. Those living on earth, whose names were not written in the Book of Life when the world was created, will be surprised when they see the beast because it was, is no longer, and will come again.

GNT
That beast was once alive, but lives no longer; it is about to come up from the abyss and will go off to be destroyed. The people living on earth whose names have not been written before the creation of the world in the book of the living, will all be amazed as they look at the beast. It was once alive; now it no longer lives, but it will reappear.

HCSB
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up from the abyss and go to destruction. Those who live on the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast that was, and is not, and will be present again.

ICB
The beast that you saw was once alive. He is not alive now. But he will be alive and come up out of the bottomless pit and go away to be destroyed. The people who live on earth will be amazed when they see the beast. They will be amazed because he was once alive, is not alive now, but will come again. These are the people whose names have never been written in the book of life since the beginning of the world.

ISV
The beast that you saw existed once, but is no longer, and is going to crawl out of the bottomless pit and then proceed to its destruction. Those living on earth, whose names were not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, will be surprised when they see the beast because it was, is no longer, and will come again.

PHILLIPS
Then I noticed that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints and of the martyrs for Jesus. As I watched her, I was filled with utter amazement, but the angel said to me, “Why are you amazed? I will explain to you the mystery of the woman and of the animal with seven heads and ten horns which carries her. The animal, which you saw, once lived but now is no more—it will come up out of the pit only to meet with destruction. The inhabitants of the earth, whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will be utterly astonished when they see that the animal was, and is not, and yet is to come.

JUB
The beast that thou sawest was, and is not, and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and shall go into perdition; and those that dwell on the earth shall wonder (whose names are not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world) when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

KJV
The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

AKJV
The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

LEB
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is going to come up from the abyss, and he is going to destruction. And those who live on the earth, whose names are not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will be astonished when they see the beast that was, and is not, and will be present.

TLB
He was alive but isn’t now. And yet, soon he will come up out of the bottomless pit and go to eternal destruction; and the people of earth, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life before the world began, will be dumbfounded at his reappearance after being dead.*


MEV
The beast, which you saw, was, and is not, and is to ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to destruction. Those who dwell on the earth whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world will marvel when they see the beast that was, and is not, and is to come.

MOUNCE
The beast that you saw was, and now is not, but is about to rise from the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose names have not been written · in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, will be astounded when they see the beast, because he was and is not, but is to come.

NOG
“You saw the beast which once was, is no longer, and will come from the bottomless pit and go to its destruction. Those living on earth, whose names were not written in the Book of Life when the world was created, will be surprised when they see the beast because it was, is no longer, and will come again.

NABRE
The beast that you saw existed once but now exists no longer. It will come up from the abyss and is headed for destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world shall be amazed when they see the beast, because it existed once but exists no longer, and yet it will come again.

NASB
“The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who live on the earth, whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was, and is not, and will come.

NASB1995
“The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come.

NCV
The beast you saw was once alive but is not alive now. But soon it will come up out of the bottomless pit and go away to be destroyed. There are people who live on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life since the beginning of the world. They will be amazed when they see the beast, because he was once alive, is not alive now, but will come again.

NET
The beast you saw was, and is not, but is about to come up from the abyss and then go to destruction. The inhabitants of the earth—all those whose names have not been written in the book of life since the foundation of the world—will be astounded when they see that the beast was, and is not, but is to come.

NIRV
The beast that you saw used to exist and now does not. Yet it will come up out of the Abyss and be destroyed. Some people on the earth will be amazed when they see the beast. Their names have not been written in the book of life from the time the world was created. They will be amazed at the beast. That’s because it will come again even though it used to exist and now does not.

NIV
The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come.

NIVUK
The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come.

NKJV
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

NLV
The red wild animal you saw was alive but is now dead. He will come up from the hole without a bottom and be destroyed. The people of the earth, whose names have not been written in the book of life from the beginning of the world, will be surprised as they look at the red wild animal. He was alive, but not now, but will yet come.

NLT
The beast you saw was once alive but isn’t now. And yet he will soon come up out of the bottomless pit and go to eternal destruction. And the people who belong to this world, whose names were not written in the Book of Life before the world was made, will be amazed at the reappearance of this beast who had died.

NMB
The beast that you see was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit, and will go into perdition. And they who dwell on the earth (whose names are not written in the book of life from the beginning of the world) will marvel when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

NRSV
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to ascend from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the inhabitants of the earth, whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will be amazed when they see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come.

NRSVA
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to ascend from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the inhabitants of the earth, whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will be amazed when they see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come.

NRSVACE
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to ascend from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the inhabitants of the earth, whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will be amazed when they see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come.

NRSVCE
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to ascend from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the inhabitants of the earth, whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will be amazed when they see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come.

NTE
The monster you saw was, and is not, and is due to come up from the Abyss and go to destruction. All the inhabitants of the earth will be amazed – all, that is, whose names are not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world – when they see the monster that was and is not and is to come.

OJB
"The Chayyah (Anti-Moshiach), which you saw, was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the Tehom (Abyss) and goes to destruction. And the ones dwelling on ha’aretz will be astonished, those whose names have not been found written in the Sefer HaChayyim (Book of Life) from the hivvased tevel (foundation of the world), when they see the Chayyah (Anti-Moshiach) that was, and is not, and is to come.

TPT
The wild beast you saw once was, now is not, and is destined to ascend out of the deep and go to destruction. All those whose names have not been written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world will be utterly astonished when they see the wild beast because he once was, now is not, and is about to rise.

RGT
The beast that you have seen was and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit; and shall go into perdition. And those who dwell on the earth - whose names are not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world - shall wonder when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

RSV
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is to ascend from the bottomless pit and go to perdition; and the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will marvel to behold the beast, because it was and is not and is to come.

RSVCE
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is to ascend from the bottomless pit and go to perdition; and the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will marvel to behold the beast, because it was and is not and is to come.

TLV
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and yet is about to rise up from the abyss and head for destruction. Those who dwell on the earth—whose names have not been written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world—will be astonished when they see the beast, because he was and is not and is to come.

VOICE
The beast you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go away into eternal destruction. And the earth dwellers, whose names have not been inscribed in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will be astonished when they see the beast because it was and is not and is to come.

WEB
The beast that you saw was, and is not; and is about to come up out of the abyss and to go into destruction. Those who dwell on the earth and whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel when they see that the beast was, and is not, and shall be present.

WE
`The beast that you saw was alive at one time, then it was dead. It will come up from the big hole that has no bottom and it will be killed. The people on earth will be surprised when they see the beast, because it was alive and then it was dead, and it comes alive again. These are the people who do not have their names written in the book of life from the time the world was made.

WYC
The beast which thou seest, was, and is not; and she shall ascend up from [the] deepness, and she shall go into perishing. And men dwelling in earth shall wonder, whose names be not written in the book of life from the making of the world, seeing the beast, that was, and is not.

YLT
`The beast that thou didst see: it was, and it is not; and it is about to come up out of the abyss, and to go away to destruction, and wonder shall those dwelling upon the earth, whose names have not been written upon the scroll of the life from the foundation of the world, beholding the beast that was, and is not, although it is.




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Re: Preterism
« Reply #61 on: Mon Feb 15, 2021 - 23:28:09 »
Amo, I’m not even talking about Daniel or the Sea Beast or the Beast from the Land right now.  Just the Scarlet Beast alone from Rev. 17:8.  And just the single phrase “ABOUT TO...GO INTO DESTRUCTION”, which was spoken about the soon-coming fate of the Scarlet Beast alone.

As I mentioned above, even a quick survey of 45 translations had 27 of them which translated this Rev. 17:8 verse recognizing the meaning of the “ABOUT TO” term (mellei).  Are all those 27 versions incorrect in your opinion? 

When scripture says something is ABOUT TO HAPPEN, this is NOT describing an event that will be delayed 2,000 years and more. To think that such a lengthy delay is intended is to twist the normal definition of “about to” out of its ordinary use.  Why are you trying to do this? 

Jesus used the very same phrase when he addressed the disciples in Luke 21:36 (YLT) about the entire list of events that would happen both PRIOR TO and INCLUDING His return.  “Watch ye, then, in every season, praying that ye may be accounted worthy to escape ALL these things that are *ABOUT TO* (mellonta) COME TO PASS and to stand before the Son of Man.”  At least 13 translations out of 45 catch the imminent intent of the “mellonta” term.  Are they all mistaken as well as myself with the meaning of this Greek “mello” term?  I don’t think so.

Christ wasn’t kidding.  The beginning of that entire list of predicted events was about to start almost as soon as He ascended, with the persecution of the disciples in the synagogues and the imprisonment and martyrdom of some of them (like Stephen).  Seismic and volcanic activity was about to increase in divers places, and wars, famines (such as in the reign of Claudius) and commotions, etc., etc., right up until Christ’s return - which was also included in that list of things “ABOUT TO COME TO PASS”.

A child could understand the simple language describing the imminent timing of all these things that would happen soon after in the first century, but grown adults who have been taught otherwise for so long fail to see this.  So sad.

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #62 on: Tue Feb 16, 2021 - 08:55:54 »


As I mentioned above, even a quick survey of 45 translations had 27 of them which translated this Rev. 17:8 verse recognizing the meaning of the “ABOUT TO” term (mellei).  Are all those 27 versions incorrect in your opinion? 

When scripture says something is ABOUT TO HAPPEN, this is NOT describing an event that will be delayed 2,000 years and more. To think that such a lengthy delay is intended is to twist the normal definition of “about to” out of its ordinary use.  Why are you trying to do this? 

I do not know why he is but I can tell you that the jury is still out on ABOUT TO meaning that it was imminent.

Even referring back to the prophet Obadiah who said “For the day of Jehovah is near upon all the nations” (Obad. 15). KJV

This cannot refer to some local judgment, because “all nations” are to be involved. And yet, the event is depicted as near.

Interlinear

"15 As. the nations all upon of Yahweh the day [is] near For. upon your own head shall return Your reprisal to you continually the nations all[So] shall drink my holy mountain on you drank as For

Quite telling, this, how KING JAMES men decided to interpret this.

 There are other prophecies like this.... NOT the least of which is James 5:8  You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand.     James could not have been predicting the literally imminent return of the Savior, for such knowledge was not made available to those who recorded and wrote of the things of the Lord.. Not even Jesus himself knew of the time of his return to earth .... Mathew 24:36.   


Jesus used the very same phrase when he addressed the disciples in Luke 21:36 (YLT) about the entire list of events that would happen both PRIOR TO and INCLUDING His return.  “Watch ye, then, in every season, praying that ye may be accounted worthy to escape ALL these things that are *ABOUT TO* (mellonta) COME TO PASS and to stand before the Son of Man.”  At least 13 translations out of 45 catch the imminent intent of the “mellonta” term.  Are they all mistaken as well as myself with the meaning of this Greek “mello” term?  I don’t think so.

as well as myself perhaps if you can explain this... we might be able to close a gap.... or not

Jimmys men have this final scritpure in Luke reading

Luke 21:36
King James Version
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man......  THAT SHALL COME TO PASS ~ near or far

New King James says
36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may [a]be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”.... THAT WILL COME TO PASS ~near or far

1599 Geneva Bible says
36 Watch therefore, and pray continually, that ye may be counted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and that ye may [a]stand before the son of man.... THAT SHALL COME TO PASS ~ near or far

So you quote a YLT of Luke 21:36 where they saw things differently then these commonly known bibles above

And the Greek/English interlinear only has books of Luke going to 24 not 36.




Christ wasn’t kidding.  The beginning of that entire list of predicted events was about to start almost as soon as He ascended, with the persecution of the disciples in the synagogues and the imprisonment and martyrdom of some of them (like Stephen).  Seismic and volcanic activity was about to increase in divers places, and wars, famines (such as in the reign of Claudius) and commotions, etc., etc., right up until Christ’s return - which was also included in that list of things “ABOUT TO COME TO PASS”.

A child could understand the simple language describing the imminent timing of all these things that would happen soon after in the first century, but grown adults who have been taught otherwise for so long fail to see this.  So sad.

From my studies of the subject of prophesy and eschatology that admittedly do not have the longevity as you have into things I can conclude this....

Aside from the etymological sense of a term, words can and do  take on special meanings, depending upon the nature of the immediate context or depending upon the type of literature in which they are found.

Example... in contexts dealing with prophecy, the time factor becomes quite elastic. Some prophecies are framed in language that makes it appear as if the events were accomplished already. This is done in order to emphasize the certainty of God’s plan. A primary example of this is in Isaiah  9:6 NKJV that reads

6 For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

What, then, is the significance of the term “shortly” in Revelation 1:1. To a considerable extent, this depends on the view that one entertains relative to the thrust of the book as a whole.

If you have not read it.... this is a great read. "  Revelation — Christ’s Final Message of Hope" and especially “The Time Is ‘At Hand’.

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #63 on: Tue Feb 16, 2021 - 09:57:00 »
Hi Rella,

The term you are using in your examples is the Greek “engus” word meaning “near” or “presently at hand”.  That word and it’s uses is a fascinating study in itself, but is NOT the word I am focusing on right now in the YLT version I used for just one example.  And I don’t agree with you that the YLT version is not a “commonly known” version that I cited.   

Instead of “engus”, I’m looking particularly at the Greek “mello” term and its derivatives, as used in Rev. 17:8 about the Scarlet Beast’s IMMINENT DESTRUCTION back then, (and also notably in Luke 21:36 concerning Christ’s first-century return and the IMMINENT events that were about to occur just prior to that return). 

This “mello” term and its variants are used all over the place in the New Testament.  In each context, it refers to events that were going to take place in the immediate future - certainly NOT delayed for 2,000 years and counting.  Just one example in Luke 9:31 being the Mount of Transfiguration, when Moses and Elijah were speaking with Christ of His death that He was “ABOUT TO ACCOMPLISH” at Jerusalem.  Certainly an imminent event at that point.

Rella, you already know, I think, that I don’t believe that this first-century return of Christ that was “ABOUT TO COME TO PASS” back then was the ONLY return of Christ that scripture reveals to us.  But for those reading this (including Amo) that aren’t familiar with my viewpoint, we are expecting a third physical return of Christ in our own future that will include the final bodily resurrection event for us.

(And I’m still waiting after these many years for someone to prove scripture teaches anything against this third bodily resurrection event.)

Offline Rella

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #64 on: Wed Feb 17, 2021 - 08:59:58 »
Hi Rella,

Hi right back at you 3R.

It has been a while and I did not want to interject myself in the mix between you and Amo but alas, here I am.


The term you are using in your examples is the Greek “engus” word meaning “near” or “presently at hand”.  That word and it’s uses is a fascinating study in itself, but is NOT the word I am focusing on right now in the YLT version I used for just one example.  And I don’t agree with you that the YLT version is not a “commonly known” version that I cited. 

You  walk into the next church you see on a Sunday morning ( bar Covid restrictions) and ask the parishioners how many know much about Youngs Literal Translation, or if they have even heard of it... Then we can discuss the commonly known of it. (In fact. It might benefit all of us to have a thread with a discussion of the various translations and how they came to be ... and when)

We know that YLT came about in originally in 1862. We also know that Young used the Textus Receptus and the Masoretic Text  as the basis for his translation.

We also know that  He wrote in the preface to this first edition, "It has been no part of the Translator's plan to attempt to form a New Hebrew or Greek Text—he has therefore somewhat rigidly adhered to the received ones."

As the basis for "his" translation .... he has therefore somewhat rigidly adhered to the received ones.

This is part of the issue I have with "translations. Receiving a translation no way "guarantees" the accuracy.

Young produced a "Revised Version" of his translation in 1887, but he stuck with the Received Text. He wrote in the preface to the Revised Edition, "The Greek Text followed is that generally recognized as the 'Received Text,' not because it is thought perfect, but because the department of Translation is quite distinct from that of textual criticism, and few are qualified for both

I repeat: This is part of the issue I have with "translations. Receiving a translation no way "guarantees" the accuracy. And even Young himself said "not because it is thought perfect, but because the department of Translation is quite distinct from that of textual criticism,"

Being distinct from textual criticism does NOT in and of itself make it necessarily accurate. The Young quotes ocame from Wiki as I was checking on the dates...


Instead of “engus”, I’m looking particularly at the Greek “mello” term and its derivatives, as used in Rev. 17:8 about the Scarlet Beast’s IMMINENT DESTRUCTION back then, (and also notably in Luke 21:36 concerning Christ’s first-century return and the IMMINENT events that were about to occur just prior to that return). 



NKJV Rev 17

8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to  perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and [e]yet is.

(There is not one single word in this prophetic verse that says imminent. The very first sentence says will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. Not immediately. Not imminently. But WILL)

Interlinear Rev 17

The beast which you saw was, and not is, and is about to come up out of the abyss, and into ruin to go.

(Important. NO mention of imminence of when the beast will go into ruin.)

And will marvel those dwelling on the earth, of whom not having been written the names in the book of the life from foundation of the world, seeing the beast which one was, and not is, although it is.

YLT Rev 17

 8 `The beast that thou didst see: it was, and it is not; and it is about to come up out of the abyss, and to go away to destruction, and wonder shall those dwelling upon the earth, whose names have not been written upon the scroll of the life from the foundation of the world, beholding the beast that was, and is not, although it is.

("is about to come up out of the abyss, and to go away to destruction,"  IT  DOES NOT SAY IMMINENTLY, that is an error of assumption.)


This “mello” term and its variants are used all over the place in the New Testament.  In each context, it refers to events that were going to take place in the immediate future - certainly NOT delayed for 2,000 years and counting.  Just one example in Luke 9:31 being the Mount of Transfiguration, when Moses and Elijah were speaking with Christ of His death that He was “ABOUT TO ACCOMPLISH” at Jerusalem.  Certainly an imminent event at that point.

Really? I say WRONG. If you consider that translators have assigned different meanings to the word mello.

Strongs, for example:

Strong's Concordance
melló: to be about to

Original Word: μέλλω

Part of Speech: Verb

Transliteration: melló

Phonetic Spelling: (mel'-lo)

Definition: to be about to

Usage: I intend, am about to; I delay, linger.

IMPORTANT NOTE: While Strongs does define melló as to be about to  under usage especially note I intend, I delay, linger
Which certainly offering a counter to the imminence of to be about to.

OR

NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
a prim. verb

Definition
to be about to

NASB Translation

about (30), almost (1), am about (2), certainly (1), come (12), delay (1), future (1), going (19), intend (1), intending (8), later (1), must (1), next* (1), point (1), propose (1), ready (1), things to come (3), will (6), will certainly (1), would (3), would live...thereafter (1), would certainly (1).


Just one example in Luke 9:31 being the Mount of Transfiguration, when Moses and Elijah were speaking with Christ of His death that He was “ABOUT TO ACCOMPLISH” at Jerusalem.  Certainly an imminent event at that point.

Not necessarily if you are willing  to consider Strong's "I intend" or most of the translation suggestions in NASB.

There are other translation links but these two offer the most concise.


“ABOUT TO COME TO PASS” back then was the ONLY return of Christ that scripture reveals to us.  But for those reading this (including Amo) that aren’t familiar with my viewpoint, we are expecting a third physical return of Christ in our own future that will include the final bodily resurrection event for us.[/color]
[/color]



Rella, you already know, I think, that I don’t believe that this first-century return of Christ that was “ABOUT TO COME TO PASS” back then was the ONLY return of Christ that scripture reveals to us.  But for those reading this (including Amo) that aren’t familiar with my viewpoint, we are expecting a third physical return of Christ in our own future that will include the final bodily resurrection event for us.

3R, LOL... you have a view of things that I have not encountered with anyone else..  (Not even the forum I was reading on Preterism, during the time I thought I had been booted from here.) Your view of things goes as far to the outskirts of when God  will make and end as mine on the other end of things, the beginning.

(And I’m still waiting after these many years for someone to prove scripture teaches anything against this third bodily resurrection event.)



Offline Cobalt1959

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #65 on: Sat Feb 27, 2021 - 03:11:21 »
Quote
Hey Amo...not much time, since I have work orders on the table needing attention...

Did you ever consider that God has DELIBERATELY allowed this prevalence of Catholic influence as a JUDGMENT on the world at large?  A world that has elevated child sacrifice of the unborn to a sacred right?

Think about it.  Catholicism has predominantly been openly opposed to abortion at any stage.  This is actually an echo of God’s mind on the matter.  Since the nations of this world by supporting abortion have rejected this original commandment in the Garden of Eden to “be fruitful and multiply”, why would God not allow the influence of the Catholic Church to prevail, if only to discourage the murder of the unborn?

Ummm, and it was NOT the 666-year old Rev. 13 Sea Beast that was to be resurrected; it was the Rev. 17 Scarlet Beast found in the wilderness instead that had a fluctuating existence of “WAS”, then “IS NOT”, “IS”, and “ABOUT TO ARISE”.  This Scarlet Beast is the one that John said was about to go into destruction in HIS days, after it would briefly arise to existence in John’s near future.  You are confusing the 3 Beasts mentioned in Revelation.  They all have differing features and biographies distinct from each other.  This is a common mistake made, so you are by no means alone in your viewpoint.

Ah, preterism.  The gift that keeps on giving.  Like an ugly poison oak rash.

I don't step up for Amo very often, and he and I have had some bitter disagreements over the years, but on this issue, he's got your number.  He has addressed the points you bring up, one by one.  Every time.  But you don't really address them, you change tacks, and then you go off in another direction.  In some cases as with interchanging Rome and Jerusalem you change your position because you get painted into a corner.  And when your doctrine doesn't have a sound biblical foundation, that is when you are forced to back up and punt.

The notion of preterism is so stupid and patently false that I am constantly amazed that anyone would buy into it.  But if Hank Hanegraaff will be swayed by it, to some people it must act like doctrinal crack.  He got so off-track, biblically, that he converted to a Greek Orthodox.  R. C. Sproul was once a sound biblical teacher, but the preterism drug snagged him too.  It seems to be one hell of a doctrinal drug.

The notion of preterism was unknown to the first century church.  As Amo has rightly and consistently pointed out the first century church never taught that Jesus had come back in their time.  This is not possible since the Bible clearly proclaims that when Jesus returns, every eye will see him.  That has never happened yet.  Preterism wasn't born in it's present form until the 19th century.  The notion that Satan is no longer at work in the world is patently stupid as well, and this is the one main point that every preterist uses that  puzzles me.  Because Satan is obviously in direct control of a great many people and groups in this world today, but preterists constantly say he's chained at this time.  No, he certainly is not.  But you would have to claim he is, to make your doctrine work.

2 Peter 3:3-9  3 First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires.  4 They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation."  5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water.  6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed.  7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.  8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.  9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Peter directly says scoffers will come because they are tired of waiting for Jesus to come back, because it's taking Him too long.  Because they think in human terms.  Peter obviously was not expecting Jesus to return in his lifetime, and the entire premise of the verse shows us that the term "last days" would be far down the road of time from when Peter was writing.  In spiritual terms, we know that the concept of Jesus' return had immanency as soon as He rose to Heaven.  But unless every single biblical prophecy has been fulfilled, literally and in physically testable ways, the event hasn't happened yet.  Jesus has not returned.  Satan is still not chained.  There has not been a time yet worse than the world has ever seen before.  As with most false doctrines established in the 1800's, presterism has one goal, specifically:  Replace Israel with the Church.  Preterism is just another loathsome and insidious form of Replacement Theology.

Good Luck with that.  Your Dollar Tree preterism is going to cause you some problems when it comes time to give an account . . .

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #66 on: Sat Feb 27, 2021 - 09:05:34 »
Hi Cobalt1959,

I see a lot of personal attack and insults, but not much scriptural substance.  When you have to resort to vitriol to defend your position, your credibility is reduced.  After all, we are both children of the same Father, you know.  Personally, I don’t want to write anything here on earth that I would need to apologize for in heaven when you and I finally meet.

As for “not addressing” Amo’s points, it would take more time than I possess to address every single point he mentions in his very long comments, so I have to be selective when I tap out text responses on my cell phone.  I’m not retired yet, and there are a hundred things on my plate at the moment.

I’ll try to cover your reply’s objections, but I might not have time to get them all.

#1 - “interchanging Rome and Jerusalem”
No, I’m not doing this.  Those two different 7-hilled cities are treated separately in Rev. 13 (the Roman phase of the Sea Beast), and in Rev. 17 (the Judean Scarlet Beast in the wilderness).  These two Beasts (of the three Beasts in Revelation) have different biographies, different fates, different activities, and different features.  I’ve already discussed these differences at length in this link:  http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/preterist-forum/the-sea-beast-the-land-beast-and-the-scarlet-beast/

#2 - “Preterism was unknown to the first-century church”  Not so.  Paul and Peter and James and Jude and Matthew and Luke and Mark and John - and Christ - all of them taught about Christ’s IMMINENT return in those last days of the first century, and the tribulations, earthly calamities, and deceptions that would immediately precede that return. 

Just one example from Christ in Luke 21:36 (YLT).  “Watch ye, then, in every season, praying that ye may be accounted worthy to escape ALL these things that are ABOUT TO COME TO PASS,” (“mellonta ginesthai” - in THEIR first-century days) “and to stand before the Son of Man.” 

Jesus had just given a list of the particular signs and events for the disciples to recognize which would immediately precede His return.  ALL of these things in the verses  from Luke 21:7-35 were “ABOUT TO COME TO PASS” - bar none.  The disciples understood this, because they had just asked Christ in verse 7, “Teacher, when, then, shall these things be?  and what is the sign when these things may be ABOUT TO HAPPEN?” (“melle ginesthai”).

#3 - “The first century church never taught that Christ had come back in their time.”  Neither you nor anyone else can prove that conclusively.  What you CAN say conclusively is that we have yet to uncover writings about this, dated post AD 70.  Archeological digs continue to uncover evidence proving truths of scriptural content even today.  And I maintain that there are landslide rubble layers on the slopes of the Mount of Olives today that prove Zechariah 14:4-5’s return of Christ happened exactly where and exactly when He said He would return.  You have to read this in the LXX to catch the true import of Zechariah 14:4-5’s prophecy of the earthquake landslide rubble that would block up the Kidron valley as far as Azal.

#4 - “Every eye will see His return”.  This is impossible to mean that every eye on the globe would simultaneously see Christ’s local, physical return to the Mount of Olives on the east of Jerusalem.  Scripture context specifically LIMITS this viewing of Him returning particularly to “those who pierced Him”.  That was those who were besieged and confined in AD 70 Jerusalem that viewed His return.  I’ve also discussed this point at length in this link:   http://gracecentered.com/christian_forums/end-times-forum/'-and-every-eye-shall-see-him'-how-scripture-defines-'every-eye'/

#5 - “Preterists constantly say that Satan is chained at this time.”  Here, I would halfway agree with you that Satan is NOT chained at this time.  But that’s only because Satan and the demonic realm was already DESTROYED by the close of AD 70 - NOT chained up back then.  Neither Satan nor his minions are in existence anymore today. 

Any and all evil occurring today needs no instigation by the Satanic realm. The “children of the devil” (as Christ once called the Pharisees) are today only copying their dead father Satan’s activity.  “The lusts of their father they will do.”  They don’t need Satan’s continuing existence to author their wickedness.  Humanity in its unregenerate form is perfectly capable of coming up with evil on its own volition.  I listed scripture proof of this in this link: http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/preterist-forum/deception/

#6 - “Peter was obviously not expecting Jesus to return in his lifetime.”  Ummm, yes, he was.  Peter AGREED with Paul’s epistles teaching about the timing and events surrounding the return of Christ ( II Peter 3:15-17).  So everything Paul taught in his epistles about the soon-coming “resurrection that is ABOUT TO BE of the just and the unjust” at Christ’s bodily return, Peter agreed with this.  Moreover, in I Peter 4:7, Peter said that “the END of all things is AT HAND.”  This means “presently near” in THAT time when Peter was writing (around AD 65, just before Peter’s martyrdom).  Therefore, this “end of all things” couldn’t possibly be “far down the road” from Peter’s days, as you are proposing.

#7 - “There has not been a time yet worse than the world had ever seen before.”  One mistake here.  Jesus never said this tribulation would be “worse” or “greater” than ever had been or ever would be afterward.  That implies a LEVEL of tribulation, which was not Jesus’s intended meaning.  He said there would not be any “SUCH” tribulation like it.  This means A TYPE or A KIND of tribulation unlike any other before or after that time. 

That truly came to pass in AD 66-70 Jerusalem, since no city had ever before had “every unclean spirit”  IMPRISONED within its walls, as Rev. 18:2 and Isaiah 24:21-23 said would happen to Jerusalem.  And since Satan and his demonic realm has entirely been destroyed since the closing days of AD 70 (as Romans 16:20 said would “shortly” happen after that time in AD 60), this is a TYPE of tribulation that can never be duplicated again in the world.  Thank God.  Human evil is bad enough as it is.

#8 - “Preterism has one goal specifically: Replace Israel with the church.”  No, that’s not the goal.  The goal of Preterism is to remain true to the imminent, time-relevant language used by every New Testament writer and speaker.  This language of imminence uses many varied terms, in both English and Greek, and is quite clear for even the youngest Christian to understand that those events would SOON transpire in the first century.

Last of your objections, Preterists believe in a *REMNANT* THEOLOGY - not a “replacement theology”.  God has ALWAYS preserved a faithful remnant that belonged to Him among the ethnic people of Israel.   These combined with the “children of faithful Abraham” among all the nations of the world since creation are combined to make up the true “ISRAEL OF GOD” - the “one fold” that Jesus spoke of.   This was the “mystery” that was hid from many ages, but was openly revealed by the Apostle Paul in Colossians 1 and Ephesians 3:3-6. 

I appreciate your concern, Cobalt1959, about the “account” that I will be giving at the final  judgment about these matters.  I have been a believer for about about 48 years, but I assure you that I have never felt such confidence and peace that Preteristic views have instilled in me since I first started studying it as found in scripture 8 years ago.  Christ feels nearer to me now than He ever did before.  I don’t mind being considered a fool by others, as long as He does not consider me to be one.

“To my own master I stand or fall”, as Paul would say.
« Last Edit: Sat Feb 27, 2021 - 10:10:03 by 3 Resurrections »

Offline Rella

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #67 on: Sat Feb 27, 2021 - 11:15:45 »
Ah, preterism.  The gift that keeps on giving.  Like an ugly poison oak rash.

I don't step up for Amo very often, and he and I have had some bitter disagreements over the years, but on this issue, he's got your number.  He has addressed the points you bring up, one by one.  Every time.  But you don't really address them, you change tacks, and then you go off in another direction.  In some cases as with interchanging Rome and Jerusalem you change your position because you get painted into a corner.  And when your doctrine doesn't have a sound biblical foundation, that is when you are forced to back up and punt.

The notion of preterism is so stupid and patently false that I am constantly amazed that anyone would buy into it.  But if Hank Hanegraaff will be swayed by it, to some people it must act like doctrinal crack.  He got so off-track, biblically, that he converted to a Greek Orthodox.  R. C. Sproul was once a sound biblical teacher, but the preterism drug snagged him too.  It seems to be one hell of a doctrinal drug.

The notion of preterism was unknown to the first century church.  As Amo has rightly and consistently pointed out the first century church never taught that Jesus had come back in their time.  This is not possible since the Bible clearly proclaims that when Jesus returns, every eye will see him.  That has never happened yet.  Preterism wasn't born in it's present form until the 19th century.  The notion that Satan is no longer at work in the world is patently stupid as well, and this is the one main point that every preterist uses that  puzzles me.  Because Satan is obviously in direct control of a great many people and groups in this world today, but preterists constantly say he's chained at this time.  No, he certainly is not.  But you would have to claim he is, to make your doctrine work.

2 Peter 3:3-9  3 First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires.  4 They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation."  5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water.  6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed.  7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.  8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.  9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Peter directly says scoffers will come because they are tired of waiting for Jesus to come back, because it's taking Him too long.  Because they think in human terms.  Peter obviously was not expecting Jesus to return in his lifetime, and the entire premise of the verse shows us that the term "last days" would be far down the road of time from when Peter was writing.  In spiritual terms, we know that the concept of Jesus' return had immanency as soon as He rose to Heaven.  But unless every single biblical prophecy has been fulfilled, literally and in physically testable ways, the event hasn't happened yet.  Jesus has not returned.  Satan is still not chained.  There has not been a time yet worse than the world has ever seen before.  As with most false doctrines established in the 1800's, presterism has one goal, specifically:  Replace Israel with the Church.  Preterism is just another loathsome and insidious form of Replacement Theology.

Good Luck with that.  Your Dollar Tree preterism is going to cause you some problems when it comes time to give an account . . .

 ::tippinghat::

Offline Rella

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #68 on: Sat Feb 27, 2021 - 11:45:16 »



 


#4 - “Every eye will see His return”.  This is impossible to mean that every eye on the globe would simultaneously see Christ’s local, physical return to the Mount of Olives on the east of Jerusalem.  Scripture context specifically LIMITS this viewing of Him returning particularly to “those who pierced Him”.  That was those who were besieged and confined in AD 70 Jerusalem that viewed His return.  I’ve also discussed this point at length in this link:   http://gracecentered.com/christian_forums/end-times-forum/'-and-every-eye-shall-see-him'-how-scripture-defines-'every-eye'/






No, I did not go back to read your link.

“Every eye will see His return”.  This is impossible to mean that every eye on the globe would simultaneously see Christ’s local, physical return to the Mount of Olives on the east of Jerusalem."

Wrong.

Why? Yes, it is true in 70 AD that not every eye on the globe could have seen him, but that is not true today.

Beyond the invention of the wireless television, wireless radio, and wireless telephone.. And beyond the invention of the wireless "cell" phone with it's immediate access by text anywhere, as well as video calls the invention of satellites makes it possible to see and hear whatever in the same instant and that mean only in the past century was possible fulfillment of Rev 1:7 and that means with the possibility, it will happen.

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #69 on: Sat Feb 27, 2021 - 11:57:21 »
https://israelmyglory.org/article/a-history-of-preterism/

Quoted article below from link above.

Quote
A History of Preterism

When did the preterist interpretation first arise in church history? This question poses a big problem for preterists. If the Olivet Discourse and the book of Revelation were fulfilled in the first century, why is there no evidence in the early church writings that the church understood things in this way?

There is zero indication from known, extant writings that anyone understood these teachings in this way. No early church writings teach that Jesus returned in the first century.

Not until the post-Reformation period did Preterism begin to show up on the church’s radar. The first clear preterist was Spanish-Catholic Jesuit Luis Alcazar (1554–1613) in his Investigation of the Hidden Sense of the Apocalypse.1 Hugo Grotius (1583–1645) of Holland was “the first Protestant recruit to Preterism.”2 Grotius was “extremely liberal in his religious views” and took a critical approach, called “the historical-philological method,” to interpreting Scripture.3 Grotius was ecumenical in spirit.

He expressed a desire for the unity of the church and was willing to make such extensive concessions to restore union with Rome that he was accused of converting to Roman Catholicism. The reason for his irenic approach was his desire as a Christian and a statesman to bring peace and unity to a world torn by religious wars.4
Henry Hammond (1605–1660) is called the “Father of English Biblical Criticism”5 and first taught Preterism in his Paraphrase and Annotations Upon all the Books of the New Testament (1653). “This volume,” noted David Brady, “contained a brave but lonely attempt to introduce the preterist interpretation of the Book of Revelation to English soil.”6 He followed Grotius closely and “acknowledged his indebtedness in this matter” to him.7

The preterist interpretation rarely appeared in Protestant scholarship until the 1800s. It gained a wide following among German liberals who did not believe the Bible contained predictive prophecy. In the late 18th century, J. G. Eichhorn (1752–1827) introduced a version of Alcazar’s Preterism in 1791 to the liberal German rationalists. Wrote LeRoy Froom: “Soon he was joined by other rationalist scholars, such as G. H A. Ewald (1803–1875), G. C. F. Lucke (1791–1855), W. M. L. De Wette (1780–1849), Franz Delitzsch (1813–1890), and Julius Wellhausen (1844–1918).”8

Nineteenth-century British scholar E. B. Elliott called Preterism “the German Praeterist School that was about this time rising more and more into notice and influence: a School characterized by considerable mental acuteness, research, and philological learning; and at the same time by much of the hardihood and rashness of religious skepticism.”9 Nevertheless, the interpretive outcomes of this liberal school are the ones evangelical preterists primarily follow today.

The father of American Preterism is clearly Moses Stuart (1780–1852) of Andover Seminary who “introduced Preterism into the United States about 1842.”10 Dr. Stuart’s commentary on the Apocalypse was a two-volume work that taught the milder form of Preterism that prophesied the defeat of God’s two ancient “enemies”: Israel and the Roman Empire.11 Enoch Pond said of Dr. Stuart’s commentary on Revelation that it was “borrowed mostly from the Germans.”12

Around the 1970s Preterism began its current rise in American evangelicalism. Before its recent upswing, contemporary forms of Preterism tended to be found only within academic circles, providing an occasional commentary here and there. The preterist rise to more popular visibility likely began simultaneously within the ranks of the Churches of Christ and, as it received renewed attention, within the Reformed tradition by the publishing of Jay Adams’s The Time Is at Hand (1966)13 and J. Marcellus Kik’s An Eschatology of Victory (1971).14

However, the most significant impetus to the current rise of Preterism has to be its widespread adoption and propagation by those within the Christian Reconstruction movement.15 Reconstructionist attraction to Preterism appears to have been adopted by the late Dr. Greg Bahnsen and spread through him to many of his disciples who, in turn, propagated it to others like R. C. Sproul.