Author Topic: Preterism  (Read 2187 times)

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Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #70 on: Sat Feb 27, 2021 - 14:48:51 »
Hi Rella,

It is immaterial what developments have been made in these days that enable most of humanity to view events livestream.  None of that matters, simply because no one since that first century generation has the actual blood guilt of crucifying Christ.  “They which pierced Him” incurred a blood curse that the high priests called down on themselves and their own children of THAT generation.  Remember?  They told Pilate, “His blood be on US AND OUR CHILDREN.”  The “days of vengeance” fell on THAT generation - and THAT generation with its children was the one held captive in Jerusalem and saw Christ return to the Mount of Olives with their own eyes. 

Since then, nobody today - not even ethnic Jews - has that same blood curse applied to them.  That crime was paid for by THAT generation up “to the last mite”, as Christ predicted.  Once vengeance was passed on THAT generation for that ultimate crime of “killing the Prince of Life” (Acts 3:15), that vengeance did NOT pass on to the rest of humanity afterwards.  Therefore, “They which pierced Him” is a very specific audience which would actually see Christ’s bodily, local return to the Mount of Olives, as prophesied.

Here is the verse that proves that old law of blood-guilt.  Numbers 35:33, “So ye shall not pollute the land wherein ye are: for blood it defileth the land: and THE LAND CANNOT BE CLEANSED OF THE BLOOD THAT IS SHED THEREIN BUT *BY THE BLOOD OF HIM THAT SHED IT*.”  It was THAT generation that was the “betrayers and murderers” of Christ, and therefore it HAD to be THAT generation which paid for the blood of Christ that they shed in the land of Israel.

For Amo, the extended quote you gave is incorrect that somehow Preterism is a sort of “new kid on the block”.  I know you yourself are probably not interested in pursuing the evidence, but others perhaps might be interested in checking out early proponents of Preterist-type views, long before it became known by that term.  Check out the website preteristarchives.org which has recently come back online, and also a book written by Francis X. Gumerlock called “Revelation and the First Century (Preterist Interpretations of the Apocalypse in Early Christianity)”.  A self-explanatory title of a book that contradicts your quote, Amo, if only you had the courage to read it.

Frankly, to me it is a matter of indifference how many people from earlier centuries held to Preterist views.  After all, the church of the first century post AD 70 had been battered almost out of existence with persecutions and even rank deception and heresies in their numbers.  The saints were “worn out” by the little horn waging war against them in those years approaching AD 70.  God designed it that way, just to maximize the number of saints that would die and then be able to participate in the AD 70 resurrection shortly thereafter.

The descendants of the first century church body that had most of its leadership martyred or scattered to flee for their lives was not going to be the most educated and well-informed on doctrinal matters.  It does not surprise me that errors in doctrine developed soon after, or that Preterist truths may have taken a place on the back burner, so to speak.

The growth of Preterist teaching today (flawed though some of it may be) I believe is due to Christ’s many promises of the growth of His kingdom in this world.  Like leaven in the bread dough parable, I believe Preterist views will continue to be further refined and will quietly increase and spread among those believers seeking for solid answers to eschatology.  Time will tell, and truth will out.
« Last Edit: Sat Feb 27, 2021 - 17:38:59 by 3 Resurrections »

Offline Rella

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #71 on: Sat Feb 27, 2021 - 19:57:46 »
Hi Rella,

It is immaterial what developments have been made in these days that enable most of humanity to view events livestream.  None of that matters, simply because no one since that first century generation has the actual blood guilt of crucifying Christ.  “They which pierced Him” incurred a blood curse that the high priests called down on themselves and their own children of THAT generation.  Remember?  They told Pilate, “His blood be on US AND OUR CHILDREN.”  The “days of vengeance” fell on THAT generation - and THAT generation with its children was the one held captive in Jerusalem and saw Christ return to the Mount of Olives with their own eyes. 

Since then, nobody today - not even ethnic Jews - has that same blood curse applied to them.  That crime was paid for by THAT generation up “to the last mite”, as Christ predicted.  Once vengeance was passed on THAT generation for that ultimate crime of “killing the Prince of Life” (Acts 3:15), that vengeance did NOT pass on to the rest of humanity afterwards.  Therefore, “They which pierced Him” is a very specific audience which would actually see Christ’s bodily, local return to the Mount of Olives, as prophesied.

Here is the verse that proves that old law of blood-guilt.  Numbers 35:33, “So ye shall not pollute the land wherein ye are: for blood it defileth the land: and THE LAND CANNOT BE CLEANSED OF THE BLOOD THAT IS SHED THEREIN BUT *BY THE BLOOD OF HIM THAT SHED IT*.”  It was THAT generation that was the “betrayers and murderers” of Christ, and therefore it HAD to be THAT generation which paid for the blood of Christ that they shed in the land of Israel.

 

 ::doh:: 

First. You simply cannot just ignore a verse because you cannot make it fit into your
arrangement of the pieces.

Rev 1:7 specifically says Interlinear....

See, he comes with the clouds, and shall see him every eye, and those who him pierced, and will wail because of him all the tribes of the earth, yes. Amen

You cannot show in any writing from any time where ALL witnessed Jesus having come with the clouds, simply because it did not happen.... yet.

And you are missing the most important verses of all.

Rev 18-19 Interlinear

18. For I testify to everyone hearing the words of the prophesy of the book this, if anyone should put to these words of the prophesy of the book this , will put the God upon him the plagues , those having been written in book this.

19. And if anyone takes away from the words of the book of the prophesy this,
will take away the God the part of him from book of the life, and out of the city the holy, and out of the things having been written in book this.

You cannot ignore ALL. You cannot spin this into regionally because by doing that you ignore ALL.

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #72 on: Sat Feb 27, 2021 - 22:41:11 »
I’m not ignoring the word “ALL” in this Rev. 1:7 verse, Rella.  That’s ALL of the 12 tribes of THE LAND OF ISRAEL that witnessed Jesus’s return in AD 70.  “The tribes of THE EARTH” phrase uses the “tes ges” Greek term, which is predominantly referring to the land of Israel specifically all throughout scripture.  For one example in Luke 21:23, Christ said there was going to be “great distress in THE LAND (tes ges) and wrath upon THIS PEOPLE” (referring to the Jews in the land of Israel specifically who would suffer this great distress).

You’re wanting “tribes of the earth” to refer to all the peoples and nations of the entire globe, but that’s not at all how John’s first-century readers would have interpreted and understood this phrase.  To a Jew especially in those days, with any reference to “the land”, forever and always, it meant only the promised land of  Canaan - the land once promised to father Abraham, and the only land they ever truly cared about.

As a matter of fact, I can’t recall a single verse anywhere in scripture that uses the word “tribes” to refer to anything else but the 12 tribes of Israel...ever.  Can you think of a scripture example where “tribes” is without question used to describe the Gentile nations of the world at large?  Nothing comes to mind.

Offline Cobalt1959

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #73 on: Sun Feb 28, 2021 - 03:01:21 »
Quote
Last of your objections, Preterists believe in a *REMNANT* THEOLOGY - not a “replacement theology”.  God has ALWAYS preserved a faithful remnant that belonged to Him among the ethnic people of Israel.   These combined with the “children of faithful Abraham” among all the nations of the world since creation are combined to make up the true “ISRAEL OF GOD” - the “one fold” that Jesus spoke of.   This was the “mystery” that was hid from many ages, but was openly revealed by the Apostle Paul in Colossians 1 and Ephesians 3:3-6.

This is the only portion of your post I am going to deal with because when someone is as dedicated to a false doctrine as you are, there is really no swaying them, but others reading on the board need to see false doctrine directly dealt with.

Romans 11:1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin.  2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don't you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah--how he appealed to God against Israel:  3 "Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me"?  4 And what was God's answer to him? "I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal."  5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.  6 And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.  7 What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened,  8 as it is written: "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes so that they could not see and ears so that they could not hear, to this very day."  9 And David says: "May their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them.  10 May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see, and their backs be bent forever."  11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious.  12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!  13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry

Romans 11:25-26  25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.  6 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.

Romans 16:25-26 25 Now to him who is able to establish you by my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past,  26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all nations might believe and obey him--

There is no "mystery" about the End Times.  The End Times exist for God to fulfill His promises to the nation of Israel.  Period.  If you believe anything, other than that, and try and wedge the Church in there, or some other remnant in there that does not belong, then you are teaching Replacement Theology.  You can re-label it as something else so it does not sound so odious, and heretical but it is still Replacement Theology.  If you have to re-brand it to make it sound palatable to other people, you've got a problem.

Paul's mystery revealed was twofold.  The Church, and that Jesus had brought salvation to the Gentiles as well as the Jews.  Even so, the Church is grafted in.  It is not the root.  So you can word it however you want, but if your eschatology does not focus on the restoration of Israel at the end, and Israel alone, then you are teaching another gospel.   Others will be saved besides Israel during this time, but the entire focus of Daniel and Revelation is the restoration of Israel and their repentance.  If you are teaching anything else, you're teaching Replacement Theology.

I will also add that if this is the Millennial Kingdom, which it has to be in your doctrine, it has to be the biggest Epic Fail in history.  It doesn't match the ad in the paper, and it seems your God can't do any better than what we had before Jesus supposedly came back. 

Offline RB

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #74 on: Sun Feb 28, 2021 - 05:03:01 »
I’m not ignoring the word “ALL” in this Rev. 1:7 verse, Rella.  That’s ALL of the 12 tribes of THE LAND OF ISRAEL that witnessed Jesus’s return in AD 70. “The tribes of THE EARTH” phrase uses the “tes ges” Greek term, which is predominantly referring to the land of Israel specifically all throughout scripture.  For one example in Luke 21:23, Christ said there was going to be “great distress in THE LAND (tes ges) and wrath upon THIS PEOPLE” (referring to the Jews in the land of Israel specifically who would suffer this great distress).

You’re wanting “tribes of the earth” to refer to all the peoples and nations of the entire globe, but that’s not at all how John’s first-century readers would have interpreted and understood this phrase. 
3 Resurrections it is you that's playing around with the word of God in this case~and truly downright corrupting God's word! You should be ashamed of yourself.
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
Matthew 24:30,31~"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Who are the TRUE (elect) Israel of God and the twelve tribes of Israel under the New Covenant? Jews and Gentiles, or Judah and Israel from the writings of the prophets beginning with David in the Psalms and ending with the prophets Zachariah and Malachi.
Quote from: Paul
Romans 2:28,29~"For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
There's more:
Quote from: James the brother of Jude
James 1:1~"James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting."
We KNOW this has to be spoken of the SPIRITUAL TRIBES of Israel, for NOWHERE in NEW TESTAMENT does the Spirit of God ever separate natural born again Jews from born again Gentiles, they both are ONE in the religion of Jesus Christ~to prove this consider:
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
Revelation seven~"And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand. After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
These TRIBES of Israel are spiritual Jews from EVERY tribe on this earth~the 144,000 is the completeness or fullness of the Israel of God whom God said was the twelve tribes of Israel~so, this tells me that God has placed his elect into tribes and will distribute them accordingly in the NEW EARTH. Israel of old was given the "seven countries" of the land promised to Abraham~he will give to Jesus Christ and his elect the seven continents of this present earth.~and he will break us down into TRIBES according to Revelation seven.
Quote from: 3 Resurrections on: Yesterday at 22:41:11
You’re wanting “tribes of the earth” to refer to all the peoples and nations of the entire globe, but that’s not at all how John’s first-century readers would have interpreted and understood this phrase.  To a Jew especially in those days, with any reference to “the land”, forever and always, it meant only the promised land of  Canaan - the land once promised to father Abraham, and the only land they ever truly cared about.
You are wrong my friend:
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
Hebrews 11:8-10~"By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God."
Abraham KNEW that the PROMISED LAND was NOT the middle east but a NEW EARTH and heaven wherein dwelleth RIGHTEOUSNESS and where Jesus Christ shall reign as King, God blessed forever. 

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #74 on: Sun Feb 28, 2021 - 05:03:01 »



Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #75 on: Sun Feb 28, 2021 - 07:01:51 »
Morning RB,

You are REALLY confused about the 144,000 from the tribes of Israel.  That is NOT spiritual tribes bring spoken of there.  It’s literal, ethnic members of the tribes coming from Jacob’s family members.  And you continue for these many years to confuse the 144,000 First-fruits raised along with Christ from Jewish graves around Jerusalem (in Matthew 27:52-53) with the other great UNNUMBERED group that John saw “AFTER THAT” first group of NUMBERED 144,000.  In contrast with the 144,000 from ethnic Israelite tribes alone, the unnumbered group came from ALL PEOPLES, tongues, and nations.  They are NOT the same group in view.

In God’s “New Man” creation, there is no tribal division whatever between the children of God.  It’s a “ONE FOLD” situation with “One Shepherd” for all within it. 

And you continue to mistake the “four corners of the earth” as applying to the globe at large.  It doesn’t in scripture.  The “four corners of the earth” (tes ges) applied specifically to the dimensions of the land of Israel, as given by God, (as He promised), to the ethnic 12 tribes of Israel (with certain conditions of obedience for keeping it).  Read Ezekiel 7:2.  “Also Thou son of man, thus saith the Lord God unto THE LAND OF ISRAEL: an end, the end is come upon the FOUR CORNERS OF THE LAND.  Now is the end come upon thee...”

Those members of the 12 tribes of Israel would be mourning in Jerusalem as they witnessed Christ gathering all His elect from the ENTIRE WORLD - from the four winds of HEAVEN - which is in contrast to just the four corners of the EARTH: i.e., the land of Israel alone.  The 12 tribes saw all these elect from all the nations resurrected and entering the kingdom of heaven, with themselves shut out in the close of AD 70 at the resurrection.

They thought that since Jesus had eaten and drunk in their presence and taught in their own streets of Israel that they had a right to expect automatic admittance to the kingdom.  Their disappointed expectations caused them to weep and gnash their teeth.  This was an AD 70 resurrection for all the elect (the great unnumbered multitude) up to that date.

This Rev. 1:7 phrase “all the tribes of the earth” does not exist in a vacuum; it is almost an exact duplicate of the Zechariah 12:10 prophecy which very specifically names several “tribes” or families of ethnic Israel (phulai), and refers to “ALL the tribes” (phulai) of Israel mourning in separation from each other in Jerusalem during its prophesied siege and AD 70 destruction.  This is NOT any so-called “spiritual” tribes under discussion in either Zechariah or Revelation, RB.

Remember, in the New Jerusalem of Rev. 21:14, it is NOT the 12 tribes of Israel that form its foundations.  They are only pictured in the 12 gates.  Instead of tribes, “the wall of the city had 12 FOUNDATIONS, and in them THE NAMES OF THE TWELVE APOSTLES OF THE LAMB”.  All of them built upon Christ the “chief cornerstone”, of course.  We in the current New Jerusalem of the New Covenant hark back to our foundations of the 12 APOSTLES who taught Christ’s doctrine. 

Revelation was written in a time when the 12 tribal distinctions, as part of the old covenant, had already decayed in death and were “ready to vanish away” at that time.  Revelation is more or less a post-mortem description of the funeral and burial for all the old covenant trappings, and the triumphant manifestation of the lone, unshaken New Covenant /New Jerusalem we are currently in today, (which Christ had already set up at His crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension). 

In this New Covenant/ New Jerusalem / New Heavens and New Earth that the saints currently occupy, there is no more distinction between the “land of Israel” and “the sea”, which used to represent all the Gentile nations.  Since AD 70, there currently is “no more sea”.  ALL the world is considered to be “THE LAND” now for the “Israel of God”; no more tribal distinctions at all, or separation from Gentile nations.  This concept overlaps your view, RB, so it isn’t totally alien to the points you are making.

Offline RB

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #76 on: Sun Feb 28, 2021 - 08:46:22 »
I will post to you later today, or tomorrow~I do not believe I'm that far off~so I will break down Revelation 7 and look at it to the best of my ability, which I'm sure will always need some correction, that's part of living in this body of sin and death. RB

Offline Amo

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #77 on: Sun Feb 28, 2021 - 08:53:52 »
Quote
Paul's mystery revealed was twofold.  The Church, and that Jesus had brought salvation to the Gentiles as well as the Jews.  Even so, the Church is grafted in.  It is not the root.  So you can word it however you want, but if your eschatology does not focus on the restoration of Israel at the end, and Israel alone, then you are teaching another gospel.   Others will be saved besides Israel during this time, but the entire focus of Daniel and Revelation is the restoration of Israel and their repentance.  If you are teaching anything else, you're teaching Replacement Theology.


Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. 15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? 16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

According to the above testimony by Paul, the Jews who rejected their Messiah were in fact cast away and are now in need of salvation. They are the branches which have been broken off. God did not spare the natural branches but in fact broke them off because of unbelief. If "they abide not still in unbelief", they can be grafted back in. If the "firstfruit" and the root be holy, then are the branches holy. Christ is the firstfruit, and the root, not Israel. The true Israel of God are those attached to the firstfruit and root which is Christ Jesus. All other branches may be and will be broken off.

Isa 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. 10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious. 11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. 12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

Rom 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: 9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name. 10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people. 11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people. 12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust. 13 Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.

Rev 22:16  I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

1Co 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

There is no Israel apart from our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Israel was and is His vineyard. He is the vine apart from which there are no branches.

Joh 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. 9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. 10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Israel was the vineyard which the Lord planted to reveal Christ to the world. The Jews who accepted their Messiah were the remnant of Israel, the true Israel of God. The Church of Christ is the fruit of their Spirit filled labors. Which is also the Israel of God being attached to the same root. The Jews who rejected their Messiah were branches which have been broken off from the tree or vine because of unbelief. They may be grafted back in if they choose to believe again. Nevertheless, the kingdom of God was taken away from them and given to others producing the fruits thereof.

Isa 5:1 Now will I sing to my wellbeloved a song of my beloved touching his vineyard. My wellbeloved hath a vineyard in a very fruitful hill: 2 And he fenced it, and gathered out the stones thereof, and planted it with the choicest vine, and built a tower in the midst of it, and also made a winepress therein: and he looked that it should bring forth grapes, and it brought forth wild grapes. 3 And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, judge, I pray you, betwixt me and my vineyard. 4 What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes? 5 And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to my vineyard: I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up; and break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down: 6 And I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it. 7 For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah his pleasant plant: and he looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry....................
Isa 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! 21 Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight! 22 Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink: 23 Which justify the wicked for reward, and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him! 24 Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel. 25 Therefore is the anger of the LORD kindled against his people, and he hath stretched forth his hand against them, and hath smitten them: and the hills did tremble, and their carcases were torn in the midst of the streets. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.


Mat 21:33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country: 34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it. 35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another. 36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise. 37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. 38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. 39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him. 40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? 41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. 42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? 43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. 44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. 45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.

The Israel of God is neither the literal nation of Israel or Jews of the flesh, or any who simply profess to be Christian, but those alone who truly are in Christ Jesus our Lord. The rest are branches either already broken off, or soon to be broken off. All Israel will be saved because true Israel is no longer a literal nation or people of this world, but those alone who are in Christ Jesus whose kingdom was and is not of this world. Those who will not understand this truth, will never correctly understand biblical prophecy, which pertains to the struggles between God's own in Christ on this earth, and the evil one's own of this earth.

Joh 18:36  Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. 4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. 6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. 7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. 8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. 9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. 10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. 11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. 12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. 13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. 14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. 18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

The true Israel and church of God and Christ are not of this world. Biblical prophecy is concerning the struggles between Christ's own, and the false church that is of this world, BABYLON THE GREAT. Which false church rides the beasts or governments of this world, leading them in rebellion against God's word, and rallying them to war against God's people. As we see BABYLON THE GREAT accomplishing today right before our very eyes. She is presently gathering all the world together under her banner unto the final global war and conflict between God's own on this earth in Christ Jesus, and her own who have joined the rebellion of the evil one who has maintained that rebellion on this fallen planet.
The final battle approaches rapidly. So be it, let each side prepare for battle as they do.

Joe 3:9  Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up: 10 Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong. 11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD. 12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about. 13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great. 14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision. 15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining. 16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel. 

Rev 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. 8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. 9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. 13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them. 14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. 17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.
« Last Edit: Sun Feb 28, 2021 - 09:03:57 by Amo »

Offline RB

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #78 on: Sun Feb 28, 2021 - 09:04:18 »
Morning RB,

You are REALLY confused about the 144,000 from the tribes of Israel.  That is NOT spiritual tribes bring spoken of there.  It’s literal, ethnic members of the tribes coming from Jacob’s family members

Just ONE quick thought to put you on notice concerning what you said that is highlighted in red.

QUESTION: If what you are saying is true, then answer this question: The four angels that were going to hurt the earth was told to hold on until the servants of God were first sealed.
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
Revelation 7:1-3~"And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
Are the sea, trees literal, OR PEOPLE? The context will guide us in the interpretation~will it not?

You can wait later to answer after I go more in detail, but for now, it must wait.
« Last Edit: Sun Feb 28, 2021 - 09:07:20 by RB »

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #79 on: Sun Feb 28, 2021 - 14:13:22 »
Hi Cobalt1959,

You bet God fulfilled His promises to ethnic Israel.  Solomon and Joshua both testified of those kept promises (Joshua 23:14, I Kings 8:56). 

That fulfillment even eventually included His promise to DESTROY THEM as a nation for their apostasy, and to “call His servants by another name”.  In a sense, there truly was “a new name written down in glory” when the “power of the (formerly) holy people was shattered” by the close of AD 70. 

As Isaiah had predicted long before (Is. 10:22-23), though the number of ethnic Israelites would become as the sand of the sea, only a preserved, faithful, elect REMNANT in those first-century days were saved (the case of the “narrow gate” being fulfilled during that limited period).  Because Jesus “came unto His own”, and his own in those days, for the most part, “received him not”. 

That’s why Jesus asked the rhetorical question about His own AD 70 return, “When the Son of Man cometh, shall he find faith in the earth?” (Few ethnic Jews with faith living in the land of Israel at the close of those last days, that is).

And NO, however badly you want to categorize this as a so-called “insidious type of replacement theology”, it’s NOT.  If there was always throughout their history a faithful REMNANT among the ethnic Jewish tribes, that faithful remnant was never replaced.  They were part of the original “root and offspring of David”, which is Christ (a point Amo already brought up in his reply).

Ethnic Israel was never supposed to be an end unto itself which all are to bow down to.  Ethnic Israel was a sort of microcosm representing God’s mercy and utter faithfulness to ALL of His elect throughout time; the stiff-necked, unlovely members of the human race which He would choose to lavish His favor upon and adopt them to become children of God.  You are making an idol of the ethnic nation of Israel, when it is supposed to serve as an illustration of a greater truth.

And though the millennium isn’t a part of this discussion at all (yet!), I’ve made numerous comments before that it was a literal 1,000 years of a physical temple worship system, dated from the laying down of the foundation stone for Solomon’s temple in 968/967 BC until AD 33 when Christ became the true foundation stone of the temple made with “living stones”.


For RB, it’s good that you can recognize that there is a blend of both the symbolic and the literal in Revelation, for example, when speaking of the sea, the earth, and the trees. 

If the mighty angel in Rev. 10:2 is pictured as standing with His RIGHT foot ON THE SEA and his LEFT foot ON THE EARTH, then symbolism comes into play here.  The RIGHT hand side of God indicates righteous preservation, and His LEFT side one of judgment and destruction.  The SEA typically represented Gentile nations, and THE LAND represented Israel.  Ergo, at that point, God intended to preserve something related to the Gentile nations, and to judge and destroy the land of Israel. 

This  same symbolism also crops up in Revelation 12:12, with woe being pronounced to the inhabitants of THE EARTH and the inhabitants of THE SEA.  No human lives in or  inhabits the ocean, so this had to be symbolic for those who inhabited Gentile nations, and those who inhabited the land of Israel.

But “the sea” can also be used in a literal sense as well in Revelation.  Rev. 8:8 is one example of a great burning mountain, as it were being thrown into the sea.  I believe this is speaking of the literal ocean, and is a prophecy of the AD 62/63 eruption of Mount Vesuvius (which was a precursor of the even more violent cataclysm in AD 79 that buried Pompeii and Herculaneum, etc.). 

When Christ prophesied in Luke 21:25, 36 that there was “ABOUT TO BE” turmoil in the world with “the sea and the waves roaring”, He literally meant the ocean would soon be affected by an increase in seismic activity and storms such as the notable one experienced by Paul in AD 60 on his way to Rome in Acts 27.

RB, you avoid history books, but you should really read up on the tsunami wave coming from the Mt. Vesuvius eruption that swamped 300 ships in the Roman Ostia harbor that were carrying Rome’s entire grain supply for the year of AD 62/63.  Rome’s citizens panicked and rioted, making Nero open up the storehouses.  This fulfilled part of Luke 21:25’s “the sea and the waves roaring”, Rev. 8:8’s “mountain burning with fire cast into the sea” that destroyed a third of the ships, and Joel 2:30’s “pillars of smoke” preceding the “great and terrible day of the Lord” (the erupting volcanic clouds of Mt. Vesuvius in AD 62/63 and the Thera caldera eruption in AD 46/47 prior to Christ’s AD 70 return).

Other references to “the sea” in Revelation speak of disasters occurring in the Mediterranean Sea and the Sea of Galilee during the great tribulation years of AD 66-70, but I doubt that you would acknowledge these as being actual historical recorded events.  It’s comforting to me, though, that Christ knew about these in advance and warned the disciples that these events were “about to come to pass” so that they could recognize them when they did happen in their days.
« Last Edit: Sun Feb 28, 2021 - 14:21:24 by 3 Resurrections »

Offline Cobalt1959

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #80 on: Mon Mar 01, 2021 - 02:19:47 »
Quote
Hi Cobalt1959

In your long-winded diatribe, I see you avoided the Millennial Kingdom question altogether.

If Jesus came back in 70 AD, and all prophecy is fulfilled, where is He, right now?  After His Second Coming, He has to reign on the Earth for prophecy to be fulfilled.  So where is Jesus right now?  Is he helping Bill Johnson with golden angel dust in Redding?  Is He chilling with the Pope at the Vatican?  Does Joel Osteen have Him sequestered in a room at Lakewood?  Or is he trying to put a smile on Russell M. Nelson's face?  Where is He? 

Offline RB

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #81 on: Mon Mar 01, 2021 - 03:41:10 »
If Jesus came back in 70 AD, and all prophecy is fulfilled, where is He, right now?
70 A.D. is not even under consideration in the word of God as an important date in biblical prophecy, no more than the "secret" rapture theory. Both were born in the hearts of men void of the Spirit of God~and some of God's children have believed either one or the other, or both of those false doctrines during their lifetime.
Quote from: Cobalt1959 on: Today at 02:19:47
After His Second Coming, He has to reign on the Earth for prophecy to be fulfilled
Sir, this is not so, at least not on present earth, but will reign in the new earth and heavens after this earth is destroyed by fire and the heavens shall pass away and perish along with those whose heart was IN THIS CORRUPT PRESENT WORLD.
Quote from: THE SPIRIT OF GOD
Isaiah 51:6~"Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished."
Again:
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
Hebrews 1:10-12~"And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail."
The ONLY earth Christ shall reign on will be the NEW EARTH and in the NEW HEAVENS. At the present time he is reigning FAR ABOVE ALL at God's right hand, or the very highest exalted position one can be exalted to. 70 A.D. theory as being important in biblical prophecy is a lie from the pits of hell and all who hold to that doctrine are deceived in that area of biblical truths. Children of God I would NOT question, but deceived they are as far as holding to biblical truths on Christ's coming, etc.
« Last Edit: Mon Mar 01, 2021 - 03:49:15 by RB »

Offline RB

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #82 on: Mon Mar 01, 2021 - 04:07:47 »
For RB, it’s good that you can recognize that there is a blend of both the symbolic and the literal in Revelation, for example, when speaking of the sea, the earth, and the trees.
Greetings 3 Resurrections~actually, I approach all of the scriptures in their literal sense and never approach them in any other manner. Yet, I also understand the importance of CONTEXT, and SENSE in which God has written his word in order for us to STUDY, PRAY, and SEEK for truth as the world does for hidden treasures and TRUST our Father in heaven to reveal His truths to us. You know these scriptures well:
Quote
Nehemiah 8:8~"So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading."
Truth will never be known by anyone who fails to practice such scriptures.
Quote from: Paul
2nd Timothy 2:15~"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."
Noble believers WILL search the scriptures daily to make sure what they are holding is the TRUTH to the best of their ability and powers.
Quote from: Luke
Acts 17:10,11~"And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."
This is called being a noble Berean~so, of course, I practice reading the scriptures at FACE VALUE, and if it makes no sense, or I cannot make it fit other scriptures, THEN and ONLY then I seek for its spiritual application. I could keep going, but enough for now of this subject.
« Last Edit: Mon Mar 01, 2021 - 07:07:56 by RB »

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #83 on: Mon Mar 01, 2021 - 06:13:20 »
Hi againCobalt1959,

You must have skimmed over my long comment and missed where I DID briefly touch on the millennium.  Look again. 

And I have never said that all prophecy was fulfilled by the close of AD 70.  I have said that all WRITTEN prophecy was unsealed and fulfilled about the “days of vengeance” back then (Luke 21:22), but that there is obviously some UNWRITTEN prophecy sealed up in Rev. 10:4 for history AFTER AD 70 had come and gone.

You’ll have to pardon my truly “long-winded” comments, since I have no church fellowship (or fellowship with my spouse either) to share anything with.  I cherish this website for offering that opportunity with you all - even when you are not in agreement with what I present.

There is a very, very simple way to confirm the actual ENDING of the literal 1,000-year millennium.  It’s the Rev. 12:12 verse, when compared with Rev. 20:3 & 7. 

Satan was supposed to be released from his 1,000-year chain for only a “little season” just AFTER the millennium had “EXPIRED” and had been “FULFILLED”, correct?

Well, John said in Rev. 12:12 that the Devil in the days of his readers had ALREADY come down to wrathfully oppress the inhabitants of earth and sea for that “short time”.  In other words, an angry Devil was already released after the millennium and was walking about “as a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour” in those days (I Peter 5:8).  So, the millennium had ALREADY EXPIRED before John was setting pen to parchment in those days. 

Now, whether you admit to a late date or an early date for Revelation’s composition - this doesn’t matter much in this discussion, since the millennium would have ALREADY EXPIRED AND BEEN FULFILLED in either case.

The Rev. 20 Millennium dates lasting from its beginning to its expiration include the literal 1,000 years of a physical temple worship system between 968/967 BC until AD 33 when Christ established Himself as the true spiritual temple’s foundation stone.

Simple.  The millennium ended when Christ first ascended and the devil descended.
« Last Edit: Mon Mar 01, 2021 - 07:19:18 by 3 Resurrections »

Offline Rella

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #84 on: Mon Mar 01, 2021 - 07:49:28 »
Goodmorning Red,

Okay... from your last reply

Quote
Quote
Nehemiah 8:8~"So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading."
Truth will never be known by anyone who fails to practice such scriptures.
Quote
Quote from: Paul
2nd Timothy 2:15~"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."
Noble believers WILL search the scriptures daily to make sure what they are holding is the TRUTH to the best of their ability and powers.[/size]

These may be the two most important verses that one can read, and ponder. Yes I said ponder simply because I do believe that most everyone that comes here, or to any other "Christian" forum believes within their heart of hearts  they do possess the truth in what they read and perceive.

That begs the question. How is it possible for one to truly ascertain if theirs' is a true belief or faulty?

Commentaries merely are the opinion of mortal men. And many are at odds with each other.

Clergy is at the mercy of what they learn at seminary, and if they attend a denominational one... things get slanted.

Forum groups and message boards can raise a temper faster then anything.

And even if you enter into things in quiet prayer to our Father... and you get a crystal clear understanding that rings true... even at that  I , or 4WD or 3 Resurections or Amo may and will come away with a totally different different understanding.

And quite often.... even to me... more then one side of the coin makes perfect sense.

As Bill Clinton would say  "it depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is,"

Or even some of the more knowledgeable on Koine Greek on here might say "it depends on what the meaning of the word eis, is." ( Which I have to comment that this is a very fascinating little word with multiple meanings and even though you do not go back into ancient texts to study... a search on this can be amusing)

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #85 on: Mon Mar 01, 2021 - 08:14:20 »
Hi RB,

Do you truly believe scripture at “FACE VALUE”?  Then if you do, you must believe Christ’s words in Luke 21:36.

“Watch ye then, in every season, praying that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that are *ABOUT TO* COME TO PASS, and to stand before the Son of Man.”  This is the YLT, and at least a dozen other translations copy this exact same sense of imminence for all these things.

Do you realize exactly what that list of “ALL THINGS” in that context would include? 

V. 8 - False claimants of being the Messiah
V. 9 - Wars and uprisings
V. 10 - Nation against nation, kingdom against kingdom
V. 11 - earthquakes in divers places, famines, pestilences, fearful things and great signs from heaven
V. 12 - Prior to all that above, persecution, brought before Jewish synagogues for judgment, imprisonments, witnessing before kings and rulers
V. 16 - Betrayal by family and friends, resulting in martyrdom for some
V. 17 - hatred by all men
V. 20 - Jerusalem surrounded by armies
V. 21-22 - Christians fleeing Judea and Jerusalem for the mountains, preparatory to all things being fulfilled about the days of vengeance
V. 23 - Great distress in the land (of Israel) and wrath upon that people
V. 24 - This same people falling by the sword and being taken captive to all nations, with Jerusalem being trodden by the nations until the TIMES (time, times, and half time, or 3-1/2 years) were over
V. 25 - Signs in sun, moon, and stars, distress of nations with perplexity, sea and waves roaring
V. 26 - Men panicked with fear in expectation of what was coming, and the powers of heaven shaken (because anything shaken was going to be removed)
V. 27 - The view of the returning Son of Man coming in the clouds, with power and great glory
V. 28 - The redemption of the saints (the resurrection to life of the dead bodies of those in Christ)
V. 31 - The manifestation of the reign of God would be near
V. 32 - That generation would not pass until all these things had come to pass
V. 33 - Heaven and earth as the disciples knew it would pass away, but God’s written and spoken words would not

Jesus included “ALL THESE THINGS” listed above in the same context when He said they were ALL “*ABOUT TO* COME TO PASS”.

Since your favorite KJV of this Luke 21:36 verse does NOT include a translation of the Greek “mellonta” term (meaning “about to” happen), then you entirely miss the imminence of these events that were ALL “ABOUT TO come to pass” in those first-century days.

Strange for the KJV translators to avoid this, because they had no problem whatever with translating this “mello” term in other verses, such as Hebrews 8:5, when Moses was “ABOUT TO make the tabernacle” (mellen).  Also Acts 20:3, when Paul “was ABOUT TO sail into Syria” (mellonti).  I sense a bit of prejudice and avoidance in the KJV translation methods when they translated this Luke 21:36 verse.
 


Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #86 on: Mon Mar 01, 2021 - 09:26:23 »
Excellent observations Rella.

It has often frustrated me how my spouse, (who is TOTALLY devoted to a love of God’s words), can come away from their Bible study with an entirely different understanding than my own. 

My best guess is that God ALLOWS any disagreement on doctrines to persist so that we have an opportunity to show the watching unregenerate world how believers can still exercise love, patience, and gentleness with each other - even when we are at odds with one another doctrinally speaking. “By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.”

Besides, let’s presume hypothetically that every saint has always been on the same page, without a single contrary view ever coming between.  Wouldn’t that tempt us to merely pat each other on the back, slap the Bible shut, and go our separate ways, never trying to engage with each other again?  We are all inherently lazy and/or busy with our day-to-day lives, and would probably use such a mythical universal agreement as an excuse to never check up on each other again. 

So let the differences continue!  Only in glory can we expect to be completely of one accord.  In the meantime, we are working toward that final goal with the Spirit’s nudging us inside, though we will never achieve it totally in this life.  We can get as close as we can, and God’s mercy fills in the gaps of disunity with His unifying love for all of us that make up His body in this world.

Offline Rella

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #87 on: Mon Mar 01, 2021 - 12:42:10 »
Hi RB,

Do you truly believe scripture at “FACE VALUE”?  Then if you do, you must believe Christ’s words in Luke 21:36.

“Watch ye then, in every season, praying that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that are *ABOUT TO* COME TO PASS, and to stand before the Son of Man.”  This is the YLT, and at least a dozen other translations copy this exact same sense of imminence for all these things.

Do you realize exactly what that list of “ALL THINGS” in that context would include? 

V. 8 - False claimants of being the Messiah
V. 9 - Wars and uprisings
V. 10 - Nation against nation, kingdom against kingdom
V. 11 - earthquakes in divers places, famines, pestilences, fearful things and great signs from heaven
V. 12 - Prior to all that above, persecution, brought before Jewish synagogues for judgment, imprisonments, witnessing before kings and rulers
V. 16 - Betrayal by family and friends, resulting in martyrdom for some
V. 17 - hatred by all men
V. 20 - Jerusalem surrounded by armies
V. 21-22 - Christians fleeing Judea and Jerusalem for the mountains, preparatory to all things being fulfilled about the days of vengeance
V. 23 - Great distress in the land (of Israel) and wrath upon that people
V. 24 - This same people falling by the sword and being taken captive to all nations, with Jerusalem being trodden by the nations until the TIMES (time, times, and half time, or 3-1/2 years) were over
V. 25 - Signs in sun, moon, and stars, distress of nations with perplexity, sea and waves roaring
V. 26 - Men panicked with fear in expectation of what was coming, and the powers of heaven shaken (because anything shaken was going to be removed)
V. 27 - The view of the returning Son of Man coming in the clouds, with power and great glory
V. 28 - The redemption of the saints (the resurrection to life of the dead bodies of those in Christ)
V. 31 - The manifestation of the reign of God would be near
V. 32 - That generation would not pass until all these things had come to pass
V. 33 - Heaven and earth as the disciples knew it would pass away, but God’s written and spoken words would not

Jesus included “ALL THESE THINGS” listed above in the same context when He said they were ALL “*ABOUT TO* COME TO PASS”.

Since your favorite KJV of this Luke 21:36 verse does NOT include a translation of the Greek “mellonta” term (meaning “about to” happen), then you entirely miss the imminence of these events that were ALL “ABOUT TO come to pass” in those first-century days.

Strange for the KJV translators to avoid this, because they had no problem whatever with translating this “mello” term in other verses, such as Hebrews 8:5, when Moses was “ABOUT TO make the tabernacle” (mellen).  Also Acts 20:3, when Paul “was ABOUT TO sail into Syria” (mellonti).  I sense a bit of prejudice and avoidance in the KJV translation methods when they translated this Luke 21:36 verse.

Oh boy....

Quote
So let the differences continue!

I'll let RB answer for himself when he can....

About the words about to. I note that you avoid not only the KJV and the NKJV but all others that simply state that something will happen in Luke 21:36.

Great.... but let us both look back at not only the Greek interlinear but also Aramaic.

First ~ knowing RB, as well as others I am sure do not do their due diligence to research the historical old documents of the Holy Bible, I am going to post Luke 21:36 from the Greek/English Interlinear so all can see exactly how the interpreters interpreted the Greek. https://biblehub.com/interlinear/luke/21.htm

Watch also at every season praying that you may have strength to escape these things all that are about to come to pass
and to stand before the Son - of Man


I have taken this one step farther and included the Aramaic scriptures as some documentation of those days was also done in Aramaic as well as the Greek. https://www.thearamaicscriptures.com/lukes-gospel.html

36 Therefore, be watching always, and pray that you might be worthy to escape from these things that are destined to happen, and that you might stand before The Son of Man.”

The debate is ongoing as to which was written first, and it strongly leans toward Greek, then Aramaic.

Except:

A little light reading

Original Gospel: Greek or Aramaic? | Religious Forums

I do think the gospel was first written in Greek and later in Aramaic, however, considering Semitic culture and its practice of oral tradition I think there is a real possibility of an oral Aramaic gospel which predates the written Greek gospels.

https://www.religiousforums.com/threads/original-gospel-greek-or-aramaic.180002/

But no matter which was the chicken here.... The key phrase in these languages is opposite, as seen in red above, and therefore begs one to wonder why. They mean 2 different things.

You believe that if the term "about to" is correct then about too means imminent.

I say not necessarily. Not in the eyes of God. For with God time is unbound.

God created time. In our universe time is basically linear. We go forward at a fairly steady rate, give or take allowances for velocity and gravity. We cannot go back in time, and we cannot experience more than one instant at a time. God does not have this limitation. He does not live within the semi-linear timeline of our universe. He experiences every moment of time all at once. https://www.compellingtruth.org/God-and-time.html

Have you ever been taking a child somewhere and when they wanted to know where you are going you might have said "We are about to go to a movie, or we are about to go see grandma, or we are about to go to an amusement park.

And on the drive there you heard when will we be there, and you simply say soon. Even though the movie is an hour away, Grandmas is 2 hours away and the amusement park is 3 hours away.

And before long the repetitive chants of "Are we there yet?" are heard.

Have you not experienced this?

To a child time is in short concise chunks while to you as an adult time is just what it is to go to wherever you are headed.

God does not think in time.

From when God created Adam until the end... be it 70AD or into the future from now, in relationship to eternity past as well as future all can  be called  "about to" and not mean imminently, because it is a progression to the end. It is about mankind having fulfilled his purpose and destiny. Mankind encompassing all from Adam to the last man.

And let us not forget that many of those who Jesus was talking to would be dead before 70AD... which would make
"that you may have strength to escape these things" a totally  moot point if talking to them.... but totally relevant if talking about when that actually would be happening.

As to your list.

I'll let RB address that.

Just know that all on our side of the fence knows this list. It is etched in our minds. Nothing there pinpoints a time. Not 70AD , or into infinity.....

Offline RB

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #88 on: Mon Mar 01, 2021 - 15:04:51 »
Hi RB, Do you truly believe scripture at “FACE VALUE”? 
Let me see if I can squeeze a post in before Miss Sherry calls for me to come down to the house for supper.

Well of course everyone must approach the scriptures when reading them at face value, or else words have no meaning. If I say to you the cow jumped over the fence, when in fact the gate was left open, then we lose the means of communicating with each other.

That being said, we all know that the scriptures have hidden meaning BEHIND the mere sounding of words~like all, world, Israel, Jerusalem, saved, save, salvation, etc. etc. Our job is to diligently seek out the meaning of the mysteries hidden therein. The scriptures used proverbs, symbolic language, to hide the truth, and even Jesus spoke in this manner quite often:
Quote
John 16:29~"His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb."
But even when he spoke plainly, one would still need to compare scriptures with scriptures and allow them to render their interpretation to us. I think you fully understand this, it has not been kept from you over the years. I first met you thirty-five years ago, and know you were taught and believe this to be so.

Sometimes the Spirit uses plain words if one would carefully hear what the Spirit is saying~example: the "man of sin"~no need to waste much time hearing what the Spirit is saying to us IF we listen carefully and read distinctly its words. Man of SIN...MAN of sin~is simply a man living under the power of sin in opposition to the word of God in BOTH doctrine and godliness. Nothing mysterious about that phrase if taken LITERAL.
Quote from: 3 Resurrections on: Today at 08:14:20
Then if you do, you must believe Christ’s words in Luke 21:36.
I certainly do, with all of my heart. 
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
Luke 21:36~"Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."
Your theory of this happening in 70 A.D. in literal Jerusalem has more problem to deal with than I believe you are able to defend~example:
Quote
Luke 21:34,35~"And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
Each word in these eight words is filled with truth that Preterism denies and rejects. The coming judgment is NOT limited to the city of JERUSALEM, but this judgment is coming on ALL them that dwell on the face of the WHOLE earth. Now, let me put this back into your court, and please show me where I'm wrong in taking these eight-words AT FACE VALUE. I'll give you help here: the CONTENT of Luke 21 with Matthew 24 and Mark 13 which addresses the SAME SUBJECT tell me to take these words literally, yet in order to protect your doctrine you cannot do so.
Quote from: 3 Resurrections on: Today at 08:14:20
Do you realize exactly what that list of “ALL THINGS” in that context would include?
I do sir.

I must stop and come back early in the morning to finish..RB  When Miss Sherry calls, I do not walk, I run as all good husbands should do. Well, I no longer run but walk at a slow pace~at least I'm walking, that's a good thing.


Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #89 on: Mon Mar 01, 2021 - 17:14:34 »
Just keep shuffling, RB, no matter what the speed.  At our ages, if you don’t move it, you lose it.

Let me do a little reminding here...I have never said that the great tribulation era of AD 66-70 and the troubled “beginning of sorrows” years leading up to it were exclusively concentrated on the city of Jerusalem alone.  Not even in Judea alone, either.   Didn’t I just give you an example above of some of those “sea and the waves roaring” imminent events as actual volcanic activity in the Mediterranean ocean near Crete and in the Roman province of Campania? (The AD 46/47 Thera eruption and the 62/63 eruption of Mount Vesuvius respectively). 

Even Seneca’s writing in his “Concerning Earthquakes” volume of AD 63 was trying to reassure the fearful Italians to stay living in their villas and homes in Campania after the AD 62/63 eruption, although the sea levels along the Herculaneum coastline were continually rising and then falling repeatedly up to 16 feet or so, all during a two-decade period leading up to Mount Vesuvius’ catastrophic explosion in AD 79.  Seismic activity was at a surge in that first-century time period, and quite literally had “the sea and the waves roaring”, as Christ predicted.  Part of the evidence being that tsunami wave in AD 62/63 that swamped those 300 grain ships in the Roman Ostia harbor (the “third of the ships destroyed” prophecy in Rev. 8:9). 

That “face of the whole earth” prediction of a coming snare uses the “tes ges” term again, referring to the WHOLE LAND OF ISRAEL.  This does not create a problem for what I’m saying.  IN ADDITION TO THE LAND OF ISRAEL experiencing tribulations, however, we also have a reference in Luke 21:26 to men fearfully expecting things coming on the whole “habitable earth” (using the “oikoumene” term this time, which DOES mean the whole known world at that time).

So, all this complete list of fearful things that were “ABOUT TO come to pass” in those first-century days would be shared across the spectrum of the known world’s inhabitants of BOTH the “earth” (tes ges - the land of Israel) AND the habitable world at large (oikoumene). 

RB, I hardly expect you to abandon your attachment to the KJV which does NOT translate the “mellonta” (about to) term correctly in this Luke 21:36 verse.  But don’t you find it at least a little disturbing that the KJV actually DID translate the “mello” term correctly as “about to” in Acts 20:3 and Hebrews 8:5 for example, but chose to avoid translating the same Greek term the same way in Luke 21:36?   Why would they do that?  This suggests a prejudiced, pre-conceived, personal opinion of the translators to me.  But thankfully, at least 13 other translations DO catch the imminence of those first-century events by translating the “mello” term correctly in this verse. 



Offline RB

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #90 on: Tue Mar 02, 2021 - 04:54:42 »
Just keep shuffling, RB, no matter what the speed.  At our ages, if you don’t move it, you lose it.
I Got you about ten years, or so~just ask Miss Rella if ten years makes much difference on our bodies~I can assure you it does. Ask 4WD he even older than myself, maybe five to ten years above me.

Just a quick thought and I want to begin looking at Revelation 7 as I promised to do before I forget to do so.
Quote
Let me do a little reminding here...I have never said that the great tribulation era of AD 66-70 and the troubled “beginning of sorrows” years leading up to it were exclusively concentrated on the city of Jerusalem alone.  Not even in Judea alone, either.   Didn’t I just give you an example above of some of those “sea and the waves roaring” imminent events as actual volcanic activity in the Mediterranean ocean near Crete and in the Roman province of Campania? (The AD 46/47 Thera eruption and the 62/63 eruption of Mount Vesuvius respectively).

Even Seneca’s writing in his “Concerning Earthquakes” volume of AD 63 was trying to reassure the fearful Italians to stay living in their villas and homes in Campania after the AD 62/63 eruption, although the sea levels along the Herculaneum coastline were continually rising and then falling repeatedly up to 16 feet or so, all during a two-decade period leading up to Mount Vesuvius’ catastrophic explosion in AD 79.  Seismic activity was at a surge in that first-century time period, and quite literally had “the sea and the waves roaring”, as Christ predicted.  Part of the evidence being that tsunami wave in AD 62/63 that swamped those 300 grain ships in the Roman Ostia harbor (the “third of the ships destroyed” prophecy in Rev. 8:9).
Still that's a "far cry" from the Lord's words:
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
Luke 21:34,35~"And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
This DAY is the visible second coming of Jesus Christ in JUDGMENT on the WHOLE WORLD, not just in Jerusalem and surrounding area's over the known world of that time.

By you and others limiting Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 to 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem you are leaving most of the world unprepared for the evil days that are coming for the ENTIRE WORLD...now what spirit would be behind such teachings? Well, since you believe that evil demonic spirits were destroyed in 70 A.D. that leaves evil men void of the Spirit of God whom you are following, or at least been deceived by them~either or, you are deceived and deceiving any that would agree with you on your eschatology teachings. I know that you and JRC differ on this, but I'm convinced that it was him that got you started down this road since he's a half-baked Preterist~and his teachings could easily lead a believer down the road that you are on.
Quote from:  3 Resurrections on: Yesterday at 17:14:34
That “face of the whole earth” prediction of a coming snare uses the “tes ges” term again, referring to the WHOLE LAND OF ISRAEL.  This does not create a problem for what I’m saying.  IN ADDITION TO THE LAND OF ISRAEL experiencing tribulations, however, we also have a reference in Luke 21:26 to men fearfully expecting things coming on the whole “habitable earth” (using the “oikoumene” term this time, which DOES mean the whole known world at that time).
Do not know your feelings on Samuel Richardson one of, if not my favorite writer to read behind said this concerning the Greek and Hebrews writings in reference to the KJV:
                                         
                                        Greek & Hebrew Knowledge as an Idolatrous Substitute for Understanding the Holy Scripture

The Priests say that we know not the original, and our Bibles are not rightly translated, nor cannot be pronounced according to the original; besides in translations there are errors, for no translation is simply authentical, and the undoubted Word of God. We demand of you, answer if you can; as to how know you that your Hebrew and Greek copies are true copies? Is it not possible for any to write contrary to their copy, if copies may be printed false, they may be written false, the art of Printing is not above 350 years old. Can you produce the first original copy, or any of those the Apostles wrote? If not, the cause is the same and you know the original no more than those that know not Greek or Hebrew? If you may depend upon the faithfulness of the Writer and Printer of your Copies, why not others upon those that did it upon oath? Doctor Fulke in his confutation of the Rheims Testament justifieth the English Translation of the Bible. {William Fulke “New Testament Confutation,” 1589} But we receive not the truth by tradition. I would know of you that are so for Hebrew and Greek, &c., if the knowledge of the tongues be sufficient to teach those that have those tongues the mind of the Spirit of God in the Scriptures or no? If yea, then all that know these tongues know the mind of God; if no, then it is but an insufficient help, and what is an insufficient help worth more than nothing. The knowledge of Greek and Hebrew is a help to read a Greek and Hebrew Bible, because else they cannot read them. So the knowledge of the English tongue is of necessity to read the English Bible. The cause is the same; but the understanding the English tongue, and reading it in the Bible cannot give them to understand, the meaning of it no more than the knowledge of the tongues Greek and Hebrew though it helps them to read the Bible in those tongues, yet is not able to give them to understand the meaning of it. That this is so, some of them, who know the tongues confess; for Apollo was a learned man, he saw the first copies of the Bible, and if that could have caused him to know the mind of God what need had he to learn of Aquila a tradesman {one of the laity as the Priests use to say} and Priscilla his wife the mind of God as he did. {Acts.18:26} Also what is the reason that those that know the tongues cannot agree among themselves? What is the mind of God in his Word, that some of you in your expositions are as contrary to each other as light is to darkness; the natural man cannot perceive the things that be of God; a natural man may be, and some are learned men it’s confessed; some of the Jesuits are good Scholars, &c., for they know the tongues, &c.; then it will follow a man may be such a learned man and yet cannot understand nor perceive the things of God. Nicodemus was a great scholar and teacher in Israel yet how simple was he concerning the meaning of Christ’s words. Tell me then what a help their human learning is to them in spiritual knowledge in the things of the Spirit. The Word saith that he reveals to us the deep things of God by his Spirit, {I Cor.2:10;} he saith not by Greek and Hebrew. If our translation be true then we can tell the meaning of it as well as you; if it be not true tell me what is that Preaching worth that is proved by a false translation, and if we must believe contrary to our translation because you say so, what is this but an implicit faith and human? And seeing you so differ among yourselves about the meaning of the word or the mind of God in it, tell me, how I may know which of you I am to believe? Also you confess that one word {in the ‘original’} could bear nine or ten divers significations; how know you which of them is the mind of God in that place, unless he reveal it to you? And if God please he can reveal it to a simple man, and God doth do so, and this is that for which Christ thanks his Father, because he hath hid these things from the wise and the learned, and revealed it unto babes, “the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee; and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed; and the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee; and he saith, I am not learned.” “For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes; the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.” {Is.29:10-12} Neither of them can read it, both put it off for they cannot understand it, the unlearned thinks as he hath been taught, that if he were learned in Greek and Hebrew he could understand it; but the former who was such a learned man could not do it, it is hid from the learned; for it’s not in being learned, nor in  not being learned. What then will some say, it is because God hath not revealed it to them therefore they do not know it. The Lord saith that none can know the things of God, but he to whom the Spirit will reveal them. {I Cor.2:9-16} {See also Ps.119:99,100}

The knowledge of Greek, Hebrew and English are all human learning of equal excellency, necessity, and use for the translation and reading of the Bible; and as without the knowledge of Greek and Hebrew, the Bible could not be translated into English, so he that translated the Bible into English, could not have done it without the knowledge of the English tongue; therefore there is the same use and help and necessity of the English tongue as of the Greek or Hebrew tongue; so there is the same to be said for the French and Dutch tongue, and all other tongues and therefore why the Greek and Hebrew tongues should be of any more use and excellency than other tongues, there is no reason to be given for it. As Aaron the Priest set up the golden calf it was called a god and Aaron made Proclamation, {Ex.32:4-8, &c.,} and the people idolized it and danced about it, so the Priests have set up Greek and Hebrew as a god, and the people rejoice exceedingly in it, for they Idolize it and fall down and worship it, because the Priest have made a Proclamation for it and commended it for such a rare thing to help them to the knowledge of the mind of God. A golden business by custom is turned into necessity and it is in such an esteem as they do idolize it and worship it, as they did the calf. -

But, what, are there not means and helps to the understanding the Scriptures without Greek and Hebrew? Yes, only the self-evidencing light of the Spirit of God, which first inspired the Pen-men of Scriptures, who is in the hearts of the Saints, the only Interpreter of the Scriptures. Secondly; the knowledge of the body of Divinity, or the Analogy of the faith, to which the Scripture is to be referred for its right interpretation. Thirdly; the Law of God written in the hearts of the Lord’s, which favors the truth, and disrelishes errors. The fourth help to the understanding the Scriptures, is the manifold experience of varieties of temptations, and the experiences of the work of Grace in the soul. Lastly, to compare Scriptures that are dark with Scriptures of the same nature that are more plain, and so to let the Scriptures expound themselves.

I conclude this, all men are pure blind, yea dead, till God gives life, and opens men’s eyes. And although human learning is necessary for translating the Scriptures, &c.
yet many idolize it, as the children of Israel did their golden Calf. Samuel Richardson {Answer to the London Ministers Letter &c., 1649}


So there, you are tempted to change the word of God in its English version to align with your doctrine~ my only duty is to make sure my understanding is according to the scriptures IN MY English bible that God has so graciously given to us shortly after the printing press was invented. 
« Last Edit: Tue Mar 02, 2021 - 04:59:07 by RB »

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #91 on: Tue Mar 02, 2021 - 07:56:01 »
Morning again RB,

I’m astounded that you can accuse me of “idolatry” concerning the use of the VERY SAME TRANSLATION TOOLS that the KJV translators employed to give us the KJV in the first place.  Why do you not equally accuse THEM of “idolizing” the original languages??  Were THEY the sole proprietors of the original languages?  Is NO ONE BUT THEM ever allowed to look into using the original tongues as a help in understanding  the mind of God?  This is an injustice of you, brother.  This amounts to a kind of worship of the translators of the KJV.

Do not ALL of us who are a child of God have that same Spirit of God within?  We ALL have access by that same Spirit to the Father.  God’s Spirit within can help me to understand His mind and intent, and with the very same assisting tools that those most learned men of God used back then.  If the KJV translators chose to exercise a different choice of translating a word a certain way instead of another, I am just as entitled to catch them on it and question why they did so.  ESPECIALLY when other plain language in scripture opposes their choice of translation options.  WHICH IT DOES. 

God used so very many different terms and full sentences to explain just HOW SOON that list of disasters and troubles in Luke 21 and elsewhere was going to come upon Christ’s disciples and their own first-century generation, that I’m amazed it took me so many years of Bible reading to realize the imminent sense of what He was saying.  I trusted without question those who were interpreting it for me in my younger days. 

But not any longer. As you said yourself above, RB...we are ALL supposed to be “noble Bereans” in our study of the scripture...even if the Apostle Paul were still alive and giving us instruction in doctrine.  Paul said the same thing himself.  (“If we or an angel of God...” etc.)

As for one point you mentioned above...Christ DID include a judgement on the WHOLE WORLD in AD 70.  Both the living AND the dead were “ABOUT TO” (mellontos) be judged at Christ’s appearance and His kingdom, as Paul warned Timothy in II Timothy 4:1.  The living of that generation suffered great tribulations as their judgment of vengeance, and the dead of the whole world were brought to judgment in AD 70 of either eternal life or of perishing by it.

God used that city of Jerusalem as a gathering point where all the dead converged “IN THAT DAY” when He bodily returned to the Mount of Olives.  He said Death and Hades (the dead inhabitants of the grave) were to be thrown into the Lake of Fire.   And for the location of the Lake of Fire, we are told that the Lord’s “FIRE IS IN ZION, and HIS FURNACE *IN JERUSALEM*” (Is. 31:9).   That particular location is where God intended to pass judgment for the destruction of the wicked who had died up until the AD 70 date.

As for all the resurrected bodies of the elect righteous dead from creation to that Pentecost day in AD 70, they were to be gathered from the entire planet - “from one end of heaven to another” (Matt. 24:31) - and all would converge at the city of Jerusalem.  From there, I believe they passed through the portal of that prophesied eastern gate located on the east side of the temple grounds (per Ezekiel 46), and met the Lord together in the air as He returned to heaven with them (per I Thess. 4).  All this in maybe less time than it takes to put a period on the end of this sentence.  And since that eastern  gate was long since destroyed in AD 70, that gives evidence that this gate already fulfilled its purpose in prophecy.

None of this detracts from other prophecies and scriptural symbolisms which apply to this current age.  RB, you say what I believe leaves people “unprepared” for what is coming in our future.  Not so.  I have said point blank that by 2033, I believe God has designed for the entire world to transition into a final 1,000-year period of a kind of fallow existence that will be reduced to a more basic level of living.  A “Sabbath” type millennium, if you will.  To help mankind realize their dependence on God to sustain life, and to instigate more growth of the kingdom of God (as promised) before the final resurrection and judgment at the close of this last, 7th millennium of fallen man’s history.

There have continued to be regular episodes of tribulation for the saints, since Matthew 24:21and 29 predicted this would occur over time during the years of history FOLLOWING that first-century generation’s “Great Tribulation” and Christ’s second coming (which was in AD 70 “IMMEDIATELY AFTER” that tribulation back then).  But since then, at least we no longer have to contend with the present existence of the demonic realm in these current ages.  Human evil as expressed by “children of the devil” is bad enough.  God is allowing this expression, but in spite of the intentions of the unregenerate wicked, in the end, they will only serve to accomplish His ultimate plan for the growth of His kingdom in this world.  We can count on that.

Offline Rella

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #92 on: Tue Mar 02, 2021 - 08:12:25 »

 Do not know your feelings on Samuel Richardson one of, if not my favorite writer to read behind said this concerning the Greek and Hebrews writings in reference to the KJV:
                                         
                                        Greek & Hebrew Knowledge as an Idolatrous Substitute for Understanding the Holy Scripture

The Priests say that we know not the original, and our Bibles are not rightly translated, nor cannot be pronounced according to the original; besides in translations there are errors, for no translation is simply authentical, and the undoubted Word of God. We demand of you, answer if you can; as to how know you that your Hebrew and Greek copies are true copies?


Side note from me on this:

"Greek & Hebrew Knowledge as an Idolatrous Substitute for Understanding the Holy Scripture"

How can you assure us that Jimmy's men were correct in their re-translations of the Holy Book?

As to copies of Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic

I have the following at my fingertips, from which I readily can and will compare. I am adding all the time because
with an interest in old history I find the comparing to be wonderful.

ARAMAIC SCRIPTURES
https://www.thearamaicscriptures.com/matthews-gospel.html

CODEX SINAITICUS (the earliest known manuscript of the Christian Bible, compiled in the 4th century CE.)
http://www.codexsinaiticus.org/en/manuscript.aspx?book=33&chapter=1&lid=en&side=r&zoomSli

About the Codex Sinaiticus ~ very interesting
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Codex-Sinaiticus

COMPLETE JEWISH BIBLE
https://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Complete-Jewish-Bible-CJB/#booklist

DAKE BIBLE pre ADAMIC
http://dakereader.proboards.com/thread/35

FULL TEXT OF GENESIS A TRANSLATED
https://archive.org/stream/genesisa15612gut/15612.txt

GENESIS B
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genesis_B


GREEK ENGLISH INTERLINEAR (INCLUSIVE OF HEBREW ITERLINEAR)
https://www.logosapostolic.org/bibles/interlinear_nt.htm



Offline RB

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #93 on: Tue Mar 02, 2021 - 08:43:34 »
DAKE BIBLE pre ADAMIC
http://dakereader.proboards.com/thread/35
Has been removed and is no longer on line~I believe...... you can double ck if you desire to do so. At least the forum from whence it at one time came from.
« Last Edit: Tue Mar 02, 2021 - 08:46:32 by RB »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #94 on: Tue Mar 02, 2021 - 09:08:01 »
Do not know your feelings on Samuel Richardson one of, if not my favorite writer to read behind said this concerning the Greek and Hebrews writings in reference to the KJV:
                                         
                                        Greek & Hebrew Knowledge as an Idolatrous Substitute for Understanding the Holy Scripture
Unless you can provide evidence sanctioned by the Holy Spirit of that fact, it has to be the dumbest acclamation ever.  Samuel Richardson has no more assurance of the accuracy of the KJV English text than he does of the extant Greek and Hebrew texts.


Offline RB

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #95 on: Tue Mar 02, 2021 - 14:14:10 »
Unless you can provide evidence sanctioned by the Holy Spirit of that fact, it has to be the dumbest acclamation ever.  Samuel Richardson has no more assurance of the accuracy of the KJV English text than he does of the extant Greek and Hebrew texts.

Notice CAREFULLY what he said:
Quote
Greek & Hebrew Knowledge as an Idolatrous Substitute for Understanding the Holy Scripture
I 100% agree with him and so shall everyone else~if that is not so, then the bible is NOT for the common man like myself and others. But we KNOW that those are the very ones the scriptures are for per such scriptures:
Quote
1st Corinthians 1:26-31~"For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord."
So much more could be provided, but enough said.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #96 on: Tue Mar 02, 2021 - 15:41:29 »
Notice CAREFULLY what he said: I 100% agree with him and so shall everyone else~if that is not so, then the bible is NOT for the common man like myself and others.
So what did the English speaking common man read before the KJV came along?  The common man certainly was not capable of reading the Latin which was about the only version available for hundreds if years.  And RB, you are not so common that you cannot make use of all the tools available today for studying God's word.  That you refuse to do so doesn't speak well of your desire to truly understand His message to man.

And by the way, if the KJV is truly a work of the Holy Spirit, He shouldn't have and wouldn't have transliterated the Greek word baptize; He should/would have translated it as immersed or submerse as the originally meant.  The Holy Spirit is not so dubious as to avoid the actual truth.

Offline Rella

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #97 on: Tue Mar 02, 2021 - 17:47:46 »
Has been removed and is no longer on line~I believe...... you can double ck if you desire to do so. At least the forum from whence it at one time came from.


Yep, you are correct.

I have not checked this one in months and only do so when I have a reason to check things " prehistoric" or " evolutionery".

But I did find a few  links, which will serve my future purposes....

http://www.fmh-child.org/Dake_Pre-Adamite_Race.pdf

Also, RB... You might be interested to know there is a KJV Dake Bible (NO... not buying but is good to know)

https://www.christianbook.com/kjv-annotated-reference-bonded-leather-black/9781558291188/pd/91180?event=Bibles|1004089


Offline Rella

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #98 on: Tue Mar 02, 2021 - 18:08:18 »
So what did the English speaking common man read before the KJV came along?  The common man certainly was not capable of reading the Latin which was about the only version available for hundreds if years.  And RB, you are not so common that you cannot make use of all the tools available today for studying God's word.  That you refuse to do so doesn't speak well of your desire to truly understand His message to man.

And by the way, if the KJV is truly a work of the Holy Spirit, He shouldn't have and wouldn't have transliterated the Greek word baptize; He should/would have translated it as immersed or submerse as the originally meant.  The Holy Spirit is not so dubious as to avoid the actual truth.


Check these out... for yourself cause there were other English bibles pre-KJV.

Among my other "bibles" I found today in researching my files for my reply to RB  are the Geneva Bibles ~FASCINATING

1560/1599

http://www.genevabible.org/Geneva.html

Geneva Study Bible

https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/eng/gsb/mark.html

Geneva 1560 ~ Textus Receptus Bible

http://www.textusreceptusbibles.com/Geneva

Geneva 1569

https://www.originalbibles.com/geneva-bible-1569/

Note: Although I have not seen all of these yet... in English are

The Cloverdale 1535

The Great Bible 1535

The Geneva 1560

The Bishops 1568

https://www.oldest.org/religion/bibles/#:~:text=The%20Coverdale%20Bible%20was%20the%20first%20Bible%20to,and%20the%20final%20edition%20was%20published%20in%201553.

And the oldest I have found recorded as yet...

 Codex Vaticanus (The Latin Bible)   300 - 305 AD But it is in Greek

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #99 on: Tue Mar 02, 2021 - 20:53:40 »
Codex Vaticanus (The Latin Bible)   300 - 305 AD But it is in Greek
A quick note - Codex Vaticanus is a minority text.  That is to say, the text there doesn't agree with the majority of manuscripts of the Bible that we have.

Just because it's a very early text, that doesn't necessarily mean it's the most accurate.  Many of the learned men who have translated Scriptures over the years have intentionally disregarded it as a source because of perceived doctrinal irregularities.

Jarrod

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #100 on: Tue Mar 02, 2021 - 21:04:22 »
Paul's mystery revealed was twofold.  The Church, and that Jesus had brought salvation to the Gentiles as well as the Jews.  Even so, the Church is grafted in.  It is not the root.  So you can word it however you want, but if your eschatology does not focus on the restoration of Israel at the end, and Israel alone, then you are teaching another gospel.   Others will be saved besides Israel during this time, but the entire focus of Daniel and Revelation is the restoration of Israel and their repentance.  If you are teaching anything else, you're teaching Replacement Theology.
I have a problem with this.

The adoption of the Gentiles IS the restoration of Israel.  (Not of the Jews, but of Israel.. they are not the same thing.)

Do you not see that the adoption of the Gentiles is the fulfillment of God's promise to Abraham to make him a "Father of Nations?"  As you said yourself, they are "grafted in," and have become part and parcel of Israel.  Not a replacement, but the actual thing.

Jarrod

Offline Rella

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #101 on: Tue Mar 02, 2021 - 21:06:56 »
A quick note - Codex Vaticanus is a minority text.  That is to say, the text there doesn't agree with the majority of manuscripts of the Bible that we have.

Just because it's a very early text, that doesn't necessarily mean it's the most accurate.  Many of the learned men who have translated Scriptures over the years have intentionally disregarded it as a source because of perceived doctrinal irregularities.

Jarrod

Interesting.

Offline RB

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #102 on: Wed Mar 03, 2021 - 03:04:19 »
Also, RB... You might be interested to know there is a KJV Dake Bible (NO... not buying but is good to know)https://www.christianbook.com/kjv-annotated-reference-bonded-leather-black/9781558291188/pd/91180?event=Bibles|1004089
I have one~ "only" because a customer of mine many years ago gave me one~I do not believe in his notes because they are against the scriptures, much like The Expositor's Study Bible KJV from the Jimmy Swaggart's Ministry which I also have only for references on what they teach to keep up speed on their teachings. Of course, Dake and Swaggarts both are Pentencostcals, with much Scofieldism and Arminianism. Both of those men have a very bad past that is not worthy of being servants of God.

I personally do not like NOTES included in any bible for a few reasons~but each to his own on that.
« Last Edit: Wed Mar 03, 2021 - 03:23:01 by RB »

Offline RB

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #103 on: Wed Mar 03, 2021 - 03:15:01 »
I have a problem with this.

The adoption of the Gentiles IS the restoration of Israel.  (Not of the Jews, but of Israel.. they are not the same thing.)

Do you not see that the adoption of the Gentiles is the fulfillment of God's promise to Abraham to make him a "Father of Nations?"  As you said yourself, they are "grafted in," and have become part and parcel of Israel.  Not a replacement, but the actual thing.

Jarrod

HEAR YE, HEAR YE! Amen Jarrod~ I was listening to SBN (Jimmy Swaggart's Sonlife Broadcasting Ministry)  last night which I do quite often laying in bed just before I go asleep and they were on that subject promoting Natural Israel ABOVE the church of Jesus Christ making the church an afterthought in God's eternal purposes of the salvation of HIS PEOPLE, Jews AND Gentiles in ONE BODY, ONE holy nation and spiritual temple for the Spirit of God throughout eternity world without end.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #104 on: Wed Mar 03, 2021 - 05:16:23 »
Check these out... for yourself cause there were other English bibles pre-KJV.
Those are all nearly 1000 years after the earliest evidence of "English" speaking people.

 

     
anything