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Christian Interests => Organized Religion and Religious Movements Discussions => Seventh Day Adventist Forum => Topic started by: Amo on Sun Dec 06, 2020 - 09:43:43

Title: Preterism
Post by: Amo on Sun Dec 06, 2020 - 09:43:43
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Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: Amo on Sun Dec 06, 2020 - 09:46:24
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Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: Amo on Sun Dec 06, 2020 - 09:51:54
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Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: Amo on Sun Dec 06, 2020 - 09:53:43
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Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: Amo on Sun Dec 06, 2020 - 09:56:44
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Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: Amo on Sun Dec 06, 2020 - 10:06:03
Well, this was a bad idea. I missed one of RB's short posts, and now adds are popping up in the middle of the copied and pasted posts. To late now. I'll attempt to finish what I started. Sorry RB, I''l put that post in next.
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: Amo on Sun Dec 06, 2020 - 10:08:24
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Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: Amo on Sun Dec 06, 2020 - 10:18:00
This is going to take to long, I'm running out of time. I'm going to delete the above copied and pasted posts, and just ask all involved to continue the debate regarding Preterism in this thread. Thank you.
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: RB on Sun Dec 06, 2020 - 14:14:23
Quote from:  3 Resurrections Reply #78 on: Today at 07:49:17 Re: Kings of the earth
No, RB, I am NOT “deceitfully adding to God’s word.  No “shame” accrues to me for using the YLT translation of this verse, which acknowledges just how soon those Revelation prophecies were to take place (as presently near in John’s days).

The KJV version (which I know you hold to as the ONLY permissible version to use) has missed the full implication of the Greek “mellei” term in Rev. 1:19.  Four translations at least do NOT miss the imminence of the “mellei” term in Rev. 1:19 for Revelation’s prophetic fulfillments, even if the KJV translators were reluctant to do so.  You are crippled in your understanding if you are devoted solely to the one KJV.

Here it is in the YLT for those who, unlike you, do not limit themselves to just one version.

“Write the things that thou hast seen, and the things that are, and the things that are ABOUT TO COME after these things;”

What really bothers me is that you still have not found a moment to study Gods definition of what an “AT HAND” prophecy means in Ezekiel 12:21-28. This requires no Greek whatever, and clearly brackets all of  Revelation’s unsealed, written prophecies of the future (from the very beginning of the book to the very end) to a time that was PRESENTLY EXISTING in John’s days.  Yet you cannot seem to face this definition that God Himself gives you in Ezekiel 12:21-28 and apply it consistently to Revelation 1:3 and 22:10.

I know you are a busy man and you struggle with weariness, but as long as I have been encouraging you to address this point, you seem very reluctant to do so.  Why is that?
Red high light is mine for discussion~RB.  Be bother no more~let me share with you and others my thoughts on Ezekiel 12:21-28.
Quote from: Ezekiel who was carried away into Babylon somewhere around 593 B. C.
Ezekiel 12:21-28~"And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Son of man, what is that proverb that ye have in the land of Israel, saying, The days are prolonged, and every vision faileth? Tell them therefore, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will make this proverb to cease, and they shall no more use it as a proverb in Israel; but say unto them, The days are at hand, and the effect of every vision. For there shall be no more any vain vision nor flattering divination within the house of Israel. For I am the LORD: I will speak, and the word that I shall speak shall come to pass; it shall be no more prolonged: for in your days, O rebellious house, will I say the word, and will perform it, saith the Lord GOD. Again the word of the LORD came to me, saying, Son of man, behold, they of the house of Israel say, The vision that he seeth is for many days to come, and he prophesieth of the times that are far off. Therefore say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; There shall none of my words be prolonged any more, but the word which I have spoken shall be done, saith the Lord GOD."
3 Resurrections, when I have read this ( and I have read this just I never posted anything on it because I truly did not see a need to do so, but doing so at your request. ) a few times over the years understanding that the phrase~The days are at hand, I have for the most part understood that phrase as it is used in its context, which always drives our understanding of any subject under consideration.

When I read Ezekiel 12, my mind connects with 2nd Peter 3, because in both places there were mockers concerning God's witness in fulfilling his word concerning his judgments that he promised to bring upon the wicked, they were thinking on terms of how THEY WOULD JUDGE TIME in relation to God's promises of bringing to pass what he said he would do. Once any man does this, his doctrine and his conclusion will end up in error.
Quote from: Peter
2nd Peter 3:1-8~"This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
Truly, even in our own manner of judging TIME, what is two thousand years? Very little!

The phrase "At hand" in the word of God is used thirty-three times, most in the NT, and each time the context will show us the sense of it which we should understand AT HAND in the context in which we see the phrase. A few examples would be good to consider: Zephaniah 1:7~"Hold thy peace at the presence of the Lord GOD: for the day of the LORD is at hand: for the LORD hath prepared a sacrifice, he hath bid his guests. This is YET TO TAKE PLACE per Revelation 19!

Matthew 3:2~"And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. It was ACTUALLY ALREADY THERE and men were pressing into it!

Matthew 10:7~"And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Matthew 26:18~ "And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples."  Just a day away!

Matthew 26:45~"Then cometh he to his disciples, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: behold, the hour is at hand, and the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners."  At hand here was THEN AND NOW.

Matthew 26:46~"Rise, let us be going: behold, he is at hand that doth betray me."Minutes" away.

Mark 1:15~"And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel." At hand meant ALREADY THERE.

Luke 21:30~"When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.  Within a short season of weeks!

Luke 21:31~"So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand." The kingdom of God in its final stage is at hand when we see the spiritual signs of Matthew 24; Mark 13 and Luke 21, etc. being fulfilled before our eyes.

John 2:13~"And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem,~at hand here is within a day or so. There are more.

When I read....
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Revelation 1:1~"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:"
And compare it with....
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Revelation 22:6,7~And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done. Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book."
Then I UNDERSTAND that ALL from Revelation 1:1 to Revelation 22 will SHORTY COME TO PASS just as God said it would~INCLUDING the Great White Throne Judgement, and the New Earth and Heavens. CONTEXT drives my understanding, not what other men teach.

Mystery Baylon has NOT as of yet been destroy~and in the holy scriptures, Mystery Babylon is THIS WORLD SYSTEM per Isaiah 13~consisting of its religion, science, commerce, and entertainments, etc. that is antichrist, she has NOT YET BEEN BURNED WITH FIRE but shall soon be as promised by Him who cannot lie!   As far as God and time relates to each other...... He just spoke those words two days ago about when John wrote Revelation.  Selah.

BUT, I will say this~God also knows how we consider time and by him saying in his word "Behold, I come quickly" then we who are his children KNOW it will be quickly at a time when men will not be looking for him, in a twinkling of an eye.

Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: RB on Sun Dec 06, 2020 - 14:15:19
This is going to take to long, I'm running out of time. I'm going to delete the above copied and pasted posts, and just ask all involved to continue the debate regarding Preterism in this thread. Thank you.
No problem my friend I have you covered.
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: Amo on Sun Dec 06, 2020 - 21:07:19
Tanks.
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: RB on Mon Dec 07, 2020 - 04:32:59
Quote from: 3 Resurrections from the thread Re: Kings of the earth Reply #75 on: Sat Dec 05, 2020 - 15:38:09
And you err in thinking scripture says ALL of those souls mentioned in Rev. 20:4 who had reigned with Christ would rise from the dead in the First Resurrection.  It was only the “REMNANT (loipoi) of the dead” who did so as the “First-fruits” along with Christ.  Matthew 27:52-53 says it was “MANY” who rose with Christ the First-fruits.  Rev. 14:4 says that the “First-fruits” numbered 144,000, and Rev. 7 says they were from Jewish tribes only (from those graves around Jerusalem that broke open in the earthquake when Christ died).

The number of 144,000 is an impressive amount, but it is not ALL who had been listed in Rev. 20:4; it’s only PART of their number - a “REMNANT” of that list of dead ones.  This is the “REMNANT” who “lived again” in the “First resurrection” when the resurrecting Christ brought them with Him out of the grave.

And it is YOU, Amo, who mistakenly wants to hang onto the idea that God did not destroy Satan when He promised to in Romans 16:20.  There are many such proofs in scripture of when the demonic realm was burned up long ago, but you either just gloss over them, or you aren’t interested.  The REAL enemy at present is no further away than our own deceptive hearts.

I have never taken the position that there is no prophetic guidance from scripture for us in these New Covenant ages.  Have you missed where I have spoken on this topic of what we presently can expect until Christ’s final return?  I have not been silent on this.

And apparently you have also missed Rev. 1:19 where John was told to write “the things which thou HAST seen” (PAST events John already knew about), and “the things which ARE” (presently happening back then in John’s days), “and the things which are ABOUT TO BE hereafter” (the NEAR future for John’s first-century readers).  These prophecies of the near future that John wrote down were ALL fulfilled soon after John wrote about them.  Those he was forbidden to write down are applicable to us in times AFTER AD 70 (Rev. 10:4).  Though John doesn’t describe the content of these unwritten prophecies, yet we know from other scripture a few things we can expect in our future.  And they are probably not what you have been taught to expect.
You have several errors in this short post, which goes with the territory of one major false doctrine bringing with it many other unscriptural positions.

First, you said:
Quote from: 3 Resurrections to Amo
And you err in thinking scripture says ALL of those souls mentioned in Rev. 20:4 who had reigned with Christ would rise from the dead in the First Resurrection.
Well, pretty sure all three of us have a different understanding of escathology~so, I will allow Amo to answer for himself, but I do want to at least show you err greatly in saying Revelation 20:4 is a bodily resurrection when John called those living with Christ, who had not as of yet received their glorified body the FIRST RESURRECTION, the second being a bodily resurrection for ALL in the last day! I have already looked at this in the other thread  Re: Kings of the earth. As I said above~"And you err in thinking scripture says ALL of those souls mentioned in Rev. 20:4 who had reigned with Christ would rise from the dead in the First Resurrection: "......the reason you err is by the very fact they were THEN REIGNING with Christ BEFORE they had received their glorified body, PROVES you are so wrong~and it also proves the first resurrection is spiritual in nature, not a bodliy resurrection.
Quote from: 3 Resurrections to Amo
Matthew 27:52-53 says it was “MANY” who rose with Christ the First-fruits.  Rev. 14:4 says that the “First-fruits” numbered 144,000, and Rev. 7 says they were from Jewish tribes only (from those graves around Jerusalem that broke open in the earthquake when Christ died).
Many of the saints who slept graves were opened and came forth and went and appeared unto many. It did not say all, but many, and it does not say anything else about them as far as what happened next after they came forth out of the grave.

I'm going to stop and come back and look at this more before moving on to my next point, if I do not stop, the post will be too long for the average reader, which is about ninety-five percent. later today I want to add to those saints who slept and arose when Jesus did. Then we will briefly look at the 144,000 which you say were from the Jewish tribes only but God said otherwise, making your position in serious jeopardy, very serious.  
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Mon Dec 07, 2020 - 11:05:24
Hey RB,

I’m borrowing from holiday workroom deadlines time to post this, so I can’t be as thorough as I would ordinarily choose. 

You and I have gone around and around before about the definition of the “First Resurrection” and neither of us is changing.  It is MORE than just a spiritual awakening of the soul to life by the Spirit, which happens on a case-by-case basis, spread out over all of history.  (This spiritual awakening to life is actually when the saints ever since creation can begin to “reign in life” during their natural lifetime on earth, as Romans 5:17 expresses it.) 

Rather than being a repeated process spread out over history, the “First resurrection”, as Rev. 20:4 described it, comes at one particular point in time on the calendar - at the ONE-TIME EXPIRATION DATE of the 1,000 years.   

I Cor. 15:22-23 also described this same concept of two particular resurrection events on the calendar, and the order in which they would occur. “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.  But every man IN HIS OWN ORDER” (tagmati, which is a military term describing the ordered rank of classes that troops of a company are arranged in.)  “Christ the FIRST-fruits” (Birth order is vital - Christ MUST be the FIRST IN RANK and in TIME.)  “AFTERWARD” (following Christ’s of the First Resurrection that occurred in AD 33) “they that are Christ’s at his coming.”  This would be the SECOND resurrection event taking place in time after that of Christ in AD 33.

We know that Christ as one of the First-fruits of absolute necessity MUST have been the “FIRST-born” of those First-fruits to ascend to the Father in a glorified, resurrected body, (thereby opening the “matrix” for His brethren to follow afterwards).  This meant that those Matt. 27:52-53 First-fruits saints that He made alive and brought with him out of the grave had to “remain” on earth afterwards until the second resurrection event, when these “alive and remaining” ones joined their “fellow-servants and brethren” to meet the Lord together in the air. 

Many of these other “fellow-servants and brethren” in John’s days were “ABOUT TO BE KILLED” (mellontes - soon to happen), as some of the Matthew 27:52-63 saints had been - under persecution (Rev. 6:11-Int.).

You really, really are crippled, RB, when you refuse to consider the meaning of the Greek terms.  It confuses your whole interpretation.

And I already know your opinion of the NUMBERED group of 144,000 from the Jewish tribes. You think they are the very same as the great UN-numbered group from many nations, kindreds, peoples, and tongues  which John saw AFTERWARD.  You’re mistaken.  There is clearly a dividing line in time between these two different categories of saints; Jewish people from the tribes John  listed for the 144,000, and AFTERWARDS, *NO NUMBER* is given to those coming from MANY DIFFERENT PEOPLE GROUPS.
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: RB on Mon Dec 07, 2020 - 14:47:01
Hey RB,

I’m borrowing from holiday workroom deadlines time to post this, so I can’t be as thorough as I would ordinarily choose. 
I know that this is the busiest time of the year for you, and I DO NOT expect a soon answer back~I do know that you WILL answer at a convenient time, it is in your DNA, trust me, I know. The Lord be you and help you to meet all of your deadlines. Post when you can. I'll have a backlog waiting for you.  ::smile:: I DO LOVE your spirit and your love for God~regardless of our differences concerning eschatology.
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: Amo on Sun Dec 13, 2020 - 11:16:57
Sorry for the delay in responses, busy time of year.

Quote
Not sure, Amo, why you think it’s necessary to split hairs about Jesus’s death “AT Jerusalem” being different than His being crucified “outside the gate” of Jerusalem.  It’s the same thing.  The “place of the skull” actually IS the head of the Mount of Olives on the eastern side of Jerusalem.  Tradition can be and often is mistaken regarding landmarks.   Tour guides of Jerusalem’s sites are not infallible.

The main access road coming from “Ros” or the “head” of the Mount of Olives led from the crest of the Mount of Olives downhill to an eastern gate into the city.  The Romans crucified Jesus at a point where all travelers into the city would likely pass and view His punishment taking place.  Helped to instill fear and submission in the populace.

Do you remember when King David had to flee Jerusalem during Absalom’s rebellion?  II Samuel 15:30 says that “David went up by the ascent of Mount Olivet, and wept as he went up...”.  “And it came to pass that when David was come to the top of the Mount, where he worshipped God, behold Hushai the Archite came to meet him...” (v. 32).  Then in the next chapter 16:1, it says that “when David was a little past the top of the hill behold Ziba the servant of Mephibosheth  met him...”(it’s “past Ros” in the LXX - which means “past the head” or “chief part” in Greek).


The place of Christ’s crucifixion is important to our conversation because you identify the great city of Rev 11:8 as Jerusalem, even though the verse itself specifically applies a spiritual application to it. If the verse is meant to be taken literally, then it would have simply stated it was Jerusalem. Or to be more literally accurate, it would have stated as other scripture does, that Christ was crucified outside the gates of the city.

 The true identity of the great city mentioned no doubt lies within the definition of a city that is spiritually akin to Sodom or Egypt. It’s identification then, can no doubt be found in scriptural references to these infamous cities, and their connection to either old covenant Israel and or Jerusalem, or new covenant Israel and or Jerusalem which is all in Christ Jesus. Christ’s church is now the Israel of God, as the NT scriptures specify, therefore has she been given all the attributes of the same.

Exod 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: 6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

1 Pet 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

1 Pet 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Israel was said to be a peculiar people of God, a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation.  The Church of Christ is given all the same attributes.

Hosea 1:9 Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God. 10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? 25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. 26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. 27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Though many of Israel would not be God’s people, yet the number of the children of Israel would be as the sand of the sea.  This would be accomplished when those who were not called God’s people, should be called the sons of the living God.  The Church is composed of those who were not the people of God, who became the people of God. They are the children of promise that are counted for the seed, which are the children of God. They are no longer strangers, but fellow citizens with the saints and of the very household of God.

Deut 7:6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

1 Pet 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; 16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

As Israel was called to be a holy people unto God, so the Church is called to be a holy people unto God.

Deut 4:20 But the LORD hath taken you, and brought you forth out of the iron furnace, even out of Egypt, to be unto him a people of inheritance, as ye are this day.

Eph 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

AS Israel were a people of inheritance to God, so the Church are a people of inheritance to God.

Jer 31:10 Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock.

John 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

As the Lord was the shepherd of Israel, so the Lord is the shepherd of the Church.

Isa 45:17 But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

As Israel was saved with everlasting salvation, so the Church is saved with eternal salvation.

Lev 26:11 And I will set my tabernacle among you: and my soul shall not abhor you. 12 And I will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be my people.

Exod 25:8 And let them make me a sanctuary;that I may dwell among them.

Exod 29:44 And I will sanctify the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar: I will sanctify also both Aaron and his sons, to minister to me in the priest's office.
45 And I will dwell among the children of Israel, and will be their God.
46 And they shall know that I am the LORD their God, that brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, that I may dwell among them: I am the LORD their God.

John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 21 But he spake of the temple of his body. 22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

2 Cor 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, 18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

As God placed His temple in the midst of Israel, that He might dwell among them, so Christ became the living temple and dwelt among us. God became one of us, and therefore the living temple of God in human flesh. Christ’s church is now both corporately and individually the temple of God and body of Christ(1 Cor 3:16&17, 6:19, Eph 2: 19-22, 1Cor 12:12-31).  Now all who are in Christ are truly literal flesh and blood children of God.

Isa 54: 5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.

Jer 3:14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:

Hosea 2:19 And I will betroth thee unto me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies.

Jer 6:2 I have likened the daughter of Zion to a comely and delicate woman.

Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. 25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. 28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. 29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: 30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. 31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. 33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

2 Cor 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? 2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. 4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

As God was an husband to the nation of Israel, so now is the Church married to God in and through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. As a man and a woman become one flesh in marriage, so humanity and God became one flesh in and through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ who literally became one with our human flesh in order to live the life we could not live, and die the death we could not die. 

Thus all who are in Christ are the literal flesh and blood children of God.  These things the old covenant nation of Israel only pointed to, have been accomplished upon us, the new covenant Israel of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.  PRAISE GOD’S PURE, RIGHTEOUS, HOLY, UNDEFILED, AND AWESOME NAME IN AND THROUGH HIS SON JESUS CHRIST FOR OUR UNDESERVED SALVATION AND EXALTATION AS THE LITERAL SONS AND DAUGHTERS OF GOD. Now all who are in Christ are the Israel of God, whether Jew or Gentile.

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Those who do not understand, or will not accept this biblical truth, will not ever properly understand biblical prophecy or the book of Revelation written for the new covenant Israel of God in Christ Jesus.

Now back to the topic of that great city, which is spiritually called Sodom and Egypt. The scriptures have many references to Sodom and Egypt in connection with Israel and Jerusalem in the old testament. Even referring to Israel as Sodom during times of national apostasy(Isa 1:9&10, 3:9, Jer 23:14), and a great deal about their whoredoms and harlotry in committing the abominations of Egypt during such times as well(Jer. Chap. 42, 44, & Eze 20, & 23). Their sins and apostasy were practicing the abominations of Sodom and Egypt in the worship of their false gods, and turning back to and depending upon Egypt during times of crisis or war instead of God. Shall we not bring the same accusation against them in rejecting and crucifying Jesus Christ their Messiah, who is King of kings and Lord of lords? Did they not forsake God once again, and turn to the powers that be of this earth in His place, to destroy Him from their midst? Yes, they chose the power of the Roman empire over their own Messiah to remove His rebuking witness and testimony against their own pride and selfishness. Choosing the powers that be of this world and the evil one who claims it in defiance of God, they finally filled their cup of rejection and lost the kingdom of God forever.

Mat 21:33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country: 34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it. 35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another. 36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise. 37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. 38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. 39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him. 40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? 41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. 42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? 43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. 44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

Nevertheless, the remnant of Israel accepted their Messiah and established the new covenant Israel of God in Christ Jesus. The book of Revelation was written for God’s servants of the new covenant era, the churches of Christ Jesus our Lord, not Jerusalem or Israel of old who rejected their Messiah and lost the Kingdom of God to those alone who could ever produce the fruits thereof of by faith in Christ Jesus(Rom 7:4-6, Gal 5:22-25, Eph 5:9&10). Thus does the book begin in addressing Christ’s servants and the seven churches. Its prophecies are not concerning Israel or Jerusalem of the old covenant, but rather spiritual Israel or Jerusalem of the new covenant, consisting of all in Christ Jesus our Lord. Who now compose the spiritual temple of God through whom the the Holy Spirit of God works unto reconciliation between God and humanity through the gospel of Jesus Christ our Lord.

The reference therefore to the great city in Rev 11:8 is not concerning literal Jerusalem of old where our Lord was crucified, but rather the apostasy of new covenant spiritual Israel, who crucified our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ afresh in committing the same sins and rebellion as old covenant Israel or Jerusalem before them. Who still to this day do as apostate Israel of old in adopting and practicing the abominations of Sodom and Egypt, while leaning upon the powers that be of this world above and over the power of the Holy Spirit of God. Not to mention the crucifixion of Christ over and again at every mass, claiming to create the literal flesh and blood of our Savior at each one, to be consumed unto salvation by the deceived. I speak of course of that great city of the book of Revelation, Babylon. Identified throughout history by authentic Christianity as the Roman Catholic church, which is verily an amalgamation of ancient pagan religion and apostate “Christianity” dependent upon the power of the state for sustenance and establishment.

Therefore is she also the main instrument in adopting and amalgamating all the religions, politics, philosophies, sciences, trades, crafts, arts, merchants, and entertainers of this world into one unified front in rebellion against God under her ancient banner. Being herself the manifestation of the body and temple of the evil one, as  apposed to Christ’s church, the body and temple of God. These two peoples, temples, bodies, cities, kingdoms, harvests, or what have you, will continue the battle which started in heaven under the rebellion of Lucifer until the end. When our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will return as King of kings and Lord of lord’s unto judgment upon and for all. The harvests are almost ready to be reaped and the rebellion ended once and for all(Rev 14:6-20).

Rev 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. 8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. 19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

Rev 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters: 2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. 3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. 4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: 5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
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18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Rev 18:1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. 2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. 3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. 4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. 5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. 6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double. 7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow. 8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her. 9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning, 10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come. 11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more: 12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble, 13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men. 14 And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all. 15 The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing, 16 And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls! 17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off, 18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city! 19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate. 20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her. 21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all. 22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee; 23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived. 24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

No 3Resurrections, all of the above testimony is not regarding literal Israel or Jerusalem of old. It is not the history of the destruction of literal Jerusalem which was already foretold by our Lord when here among us in the flesh, and which likely happened before the book of Revelation was written. It was written to and for the church of Christ during this new covenant era. God always provides prophetic testimony for His people to guide them through the events of history as they unfold, that they might know where they stand and what their duty is for any particular time in relation to the same. He has not left His people without prophetic guidance for the last two thousand years. And the battle for the souls of humanity between God and Satan is not and has not been over for the past two thousand years either. As the evil one himself would have all believe. The NT scriptures conclusively refute this deception authored by the evil one himself.

Literal Israel or Jerusalem never fulfilled the details of global influence, confederacy, and conformity the great city described in the book of Revelation accomplishes. She never even came in contact with all the kings of the earth during her existence, let alone committed fornication with all of them. Not to mention all the merchants, tradesman, craftsman, entertainers and what have you, of the world either. None of this was even possible before God set up and determined the universal nature of the kingdoms of God and man in this world in this new covenant era. Which itself was instituted in order to allow for all decisions to be made in a single generation, that an end might be  accomplished through the same. Therefore is the gospel commission unto all the world until the end, and BABYLON THE GREAT’S endeavors are of a global nature of forced submission until the end. So be it according to God’s design and revealed prophetic will.

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: Amo on Sun Dec 13, 2020 - 11:21:01
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This “head”, or top of Mount Olivet is the “place of the skull” where Jesus was crucified.    opposite the temple on the east side of Jerusalem. It’s also where Jesus bodily returned and stood in judgment on the city of Jerusalem in AD 70.  He gathered His resurrected saints to meet Him in the air then, and returned with them to present them to the Father in heaven.  A fitting site to choose for returning victoriously to the scene of the crime against Himself, don’t you think?  Poetic justice.

Jesus did not return in AD 70, or resurrect anyone at that time. Please do supply any historical evidence or record of such if any actually exists anywhere.

Mat 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. 51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

We know of the above resurrection which the apostles most certainly knew of as well. Yet they still preached the resurrection of the saved, at Christ’s personal return. Do you mean to tell me that this actually happened in AD 70 and Christians of the time made no historical record of it, nor preached what you do now? BALONEY! This most important event would absolutely be recorded and preached far and wide as an enormous event in the history of Christianity. It simply was and is not, and for very good reason. It never happened, it was never predicted to happen at such a time in scripture, and it contradicts scriptural testimony concerning said resurrection. Neither Jesus or the apostles ever spoke of His return unto a resurrection of old covenant saints alone, before the resurrection of the saints of the new covenant era described in the NT scriptures for us in great detail. If your claimed resurrection did take place, who among the living was taken, and who were left, according to Christ’s testimony in the following verses? Why didn’t those who were left leave a testimony of this event for all future peoples and especially Christians to know of? It never happened.


Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. 9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. 32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. 43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. 44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. 45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. 48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; 49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; 50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, 51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

It is not even possible that all of the events described above could have happened between Christ’s testimony concerning the same, and AD 70. Nor has the gospel been preached in all the world yet. Nor has Christ returned in the manner described above as lightening seen from east to west, seen by all of humanity, as all the tribes of the earth behold the same. Nor have any of the living been taken with Christ and others left as the above describes. You account is false, and identified as such by Christ Himself in the above quote. For you do testify that Christ has already come but most did not see Him, as Christ testified false prophets would claim before His return.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

No event such as that described above or anything even remotely like it, has happened on this earth yet. The burden is upon you to prove it has happened if you can. Or are you preaching a secret limited rapture?
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Sun Dec 13, 2020 - 14:07:25
Amo, every one of your objections listed above I have covered at length on this GCF website, with stacks of biblical proof listed for each point.  However, if it is your habit to mainly participate on this particular 7th Day Adventist forum and not the rest of the forums, I can understand why you may have missed what I wrote.

The rapture teaching that I read from I Thessalonians 4 and I Corinthians 15 did NOT include a translation-type experience for the saints who hadn’t died yet.  No such promise was EVER given to us.  ALL saints must die the ONE TIME, as Hebrews 9:27 requires. 

Therefore, no ordinary living saints (who hadn’t died yet) were ever going to be raptured at the resurrection.  Paul spoke of the “living and REMAINING” saints - saints who had ALREADY BEEN MADE ALIVE BY A RESURRECTION (those such as the Matt. 27:52-53 saints), but who had “remained” on earth in that resurrected state.  These who had been made alive earlier would join all the newly-resurrected saints to meet the Lord together in the air in the promised AD 70 resurrection. 

And I have already given archaeological evidence as well as historical evidence of the AD 70 resurrection at Christ’s return.  Do you need links for this?

And there is ample scripture proof that the gospel was preached unto “every creature under heaven”, and “in all the world” before AD 70’s resurrection at Christ’s return.  Do you need a list of these references?  Since that time, the gospel is still being presented to the nations at large, and will continue until the final THIRD resurrection in our future.

And yes, every event included in the lengthy Matt. 24 passage you gave above most certainly came to pass in that first-century generation, just as Christ promised.  They happened either just before, or during the “great tribulation” period from AD 66-70 - which “great tribulation’s” severity has never again been duplicated or surpassed after AD 70 in the rest of human history.  And we know that Christ was to “IMMEDIATELY” return after that first-century “great tribulation” (Matt. 24:29).  So that means His second-coming return is long past, with periods of various tribulations for the saints occurring after Christ’s AD 70 return.

Revelation, as you have stated yourself Amo,  is a book addressed to the new-covenant saints.  These were “ABOUT TO SUFFER” (Rev. 2:10) at the hands of their first-century persecutors (which included the antagonistic Jews as well as Nero and a wrathful Satan who had only a “short time” left to operate).  These who would SOON suffer and who were “ABOUT TO BE KILLED” (Rev.6:11) at that time would “SPEEDILY” (Luke 18:8) be vindicated by the AD 70 fall of “Babylon” (the old city of Jerusalem, and the antagonistic priesthood which had been oppressing the believers). 

This fall of Babylon / Old Jerusalem was going to take only “one hour” to accomplish - by any accounts, only a brief period of time (Rev. 18:17).  The “kings of the earth” / high priests of Israel (NOT the other “kings of the whole habitable world”) would stand “afar off”, fearfully watching this takedown of their former “holy city” (Rev. 18:9).  In Josephus we are given the names of these few “kings of the earth” / high priests who bewailed and lamented the dying city.  These few former high priests and some of the high priests’ sons managed to escape Jerusalem and were sent by Titus to the more removed location called Gophna to wait out the war.  Titus later used these former high priests, along with Josephus outside the walls of Jerusalem, to personally plead with their fellow Jews to surrender to the Romans before it was too late (Wars 6.2.2-3).

These were all first-century events, Amo.  They were presently “AT HAND” then, and are  ancient history at present.  You can’t expect the vast multitudes of persecuted, DEAD Christians of that era to make a detailed record of the resurrection for your perusal.  After all, they were raptured from earth to heaven along with the returning Christ, without time to sit down and make that personal record of events that you demand. 

The rest of the first-century believers obeyed Christ’s instructions to FLEE Jerusalem and Judea once they saw Jerusalem encircled with armies.  They were not personally around to be an eye-witness of Christ’s Mount of Olives return, where all the resurrected saints converged.  They fled to Pella in the Decapolis, among other distant locations. 

What those believers did have was the record JESUS gave them of when He would return and the signs attending that return, before all that generation had died.  Though they didn’t personally see this return, (since only “those who pierced Him” would be the eye-witnesses), Jesus’ prophetic words were sufficient evidence for them, and should be sufficient evidence for YOU.

Doubting Thomases galore on this website...
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: Amo on Sat Dec 19, 2020 - 14:16:53
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Amo, every one of your objections listed above I have covered at length on this GCF website, with stacks of biblical proof listed for each point.  However, if it is your habit to mainly participate on this particular 7th Day Adventist forum and not the rest of the forums, I can understand why you may have missed what I wrote.

The rapture teaching that I read from I Thessalonians 4 and I Corinthians 15 did NOT include a translation-type experience for the saints who hadn’t died yet.  No such promise was EVER given to us.  ALL saints must die the ONE TIME, as Hebrews 9:27 requires. 

Therefore, no ordinary living saints (who hadn’t died yet) were ever going to be raptured at the resurrection.  Paul spoke of the “living and REMAINING” saints - saints who had ALREADY BEEN MADE ALIVE BY A RESURRECTION (those such as the Matt. 27:52-53 saints), but who had “remained” on earth in that resurrected state.  These who had been made alive earlier would join all the newly-resurrected saints to meet the Lord together in the air in the promised AD 70 resurrection. 

1 Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

WRONG! The dead are raised, and the living are caught up together with them, after which they will all be with the Lord forever. Stop trying to make scripture fit your preconceived ideas, and take them for what they simply say.

While 1 Corinthians does not specifically address those alive at Christ’s return, it does specify that all will be changed from mortal to immortal at the last trump, this will of course include the living in Christ at that time. At which time, Death is swallowed up in victory. This cannot be so, if the above were in relation to some resurrection of the dead in Christ in 70AD as you falsely preach. Countless believers in Christ have died since that time. Your testimony is false.

Do you really expect everyone to believe that resurrected saints from the old covenant were alive and well preaching and teaching for some thirty odd years leading up to 70AD, with no mention of them by the apostles during that same period? No testimony recorded from them who were alive from the dead, walking, talking, and no doubt teaching for over thirty years? BALONEY! There is no record of any kind concerning such, because nothing of the sort ever happened, just like the phony 70AD resurrection which you preach. There is not historical Christian testimony regarding either, because neither ever happened. The saints raised at Christ’s crucifixion gave their testimony, after which no doubt, they were taken up to heaven and are no doubt among the twenty four elders mentioned in the book of Revelation. Along with Enoch, Elijah, and Moses no doubt.   

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And I have already given archaeological evidence as well as historical evidence of the AD 70 resurrection at Christ’s return.  Do you need links for this?

Yes, I most definitely do. Please provide such evidence.

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And there is ample scripture proof that the gospel was preached unto “every creature under heaven”, and “in all the world” before AD 70’s resurrection at Christ’s return.  Do you need a list of these references?  Since that time, the gospel is still being presented to the nations at large, and will continue until the final THIRD resurrection in our future.

Yes, give me the references which declare the gospel had already gone out to all the world prior to AD70. While you are at it, please explain how the details of the following words of Paul were fulfilled prior to AD70 please. Since these things were supposed to happen before Christ returned according to Paul.

2 Th 2:1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

When did the above falling away transpire before 70AD? Who was the man of sin that set himself up in the temple which still existed at that time. How was he destroyed by the brightness of Christ’s coming? Why did none of the witnesses of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD, report anything about this destructive brightness? What were the workings of Satan with all power, signs, and lying wonders. What was the strong delusion? Please do tell.

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And yes, every event included in the lengthy Matt. 24 passage you gave above most certainly came to pass in that first-century generation, just as Christ promised.  They happened either just before, or during the “great tribulation” period from AD 66-70 - which “great tribulation’s” severity has never again been duplicated or surpassed after AD 70 in the rest of human history.  And we know that Christ was to “IMMEDIATELY” return after that first-century “great tribulation” (Matt. 24:29).  So that means His second-coming return is long past, with periods of various tribulations for the saints occurring after Christ’s AD 70 return.

Not so, estimates of from 50 to 125 million Christians were murdered during the papacies rule of the dark ages. A man of sin exalted himself in the temple of God (body of believers), defiled said temple of God with false teachings and abominable practices, and persecuted countless millions of the saints of God who would not submit to his usurped authority for over a thousand years. Denying this history does not make it go away.

Mt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

No, the sun was not darkened yet, the moons light was not taken away yet, and the stars of heaven have not fallen yet, the heaven have not been shaken yet. All the tribes of the earth have not mourned because of seeing Christ’s return yet. There has not been a great sound of a trumpet yet, after which God has gathered together all of His elect from everywhere.

Mt 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

You deny the above, and say none of the living were taken at your supposed second coming and resurrection. Christ testified to the opposite effect concerning His second coming. So when did the above happen at AD70, and where is any record of it? Or why do you deny the above words of Christ concerning it?

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Revelation, as you have stated yourself Amo,  is a book addressed to the new-covenant saints.  These were “ABOUT TO SUFFER” (Rev. 2:10) at the hands of their first-century persecutors (which included the antagonistic Jews as well as Nero and a wrathful Satan who had only a “short time” left to operate).  These who would SOON suffer and who were “ABOUT TO BE KILLED” (Rev.6:11) at that time would “SPEEDILY” (Luke 18:8) be vindicated by the AD 70 fall of “Babylon” (the old city of Jerusalem, and the antagonistic priesthood which had been oppressing the believers).

https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1552-when-was-the-book-of-revelation-written

The above link addresses the probable date of the book of Revelation being written about 96AD, which would of course make your entire belief system moot from the get go. As is obvious, Preterists of necessity choose an earlier date around 68 or 69AD. Even is this were correct, which is unlikely, this would mean that one of the most if not the most detailed and lengthy prophecies of the scriptures only covers one to two years of time. BALONEY! Only agenda driven interpretation of biblical prophecy would attempt to place all of the events depicted in the book of Revelation, into a time period of one to two years. Such makes the agenda of Preterism glaringly obvious.

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This fall of Babylon / Old Jerusalem was going to take only “one hour” to accomplish - by any accounts, only a brief period of time (Rev. 18:17).  The “kings of the earth” / high priests of Israel (NOT the other “kings of the whole habitable world”) would stand “afar off”, fearfully watching this takedown of their former “holy city” (Rev. 18:9).  In Josephus we are given the names of these few “kings of the earth” / high priests who bewailed and lamented the dying city.  These few former high priests and some of the high priests’ sons managed to escape Jerusalem and were sent by Titus to the more removed location called Gophna to wait out the war.  Titus later used these former high priests, along with Josephus outside the walls of Jerusalem, to personally plead with their fellow Jews to surrender to the Romans before it was too late (Wars 6.2.2-3).

BALONEY! Your whole interpretation of kings of the earth is based upon one obscure statement regarding kings and priests. The details of the book of Revelation in relation to BABYLON THE GREAT, includes all nations of the earth, not just kings. This would of course include the kings of all the nations of earth. Accepting of course for agenda driven interpretations, deduced according to the desire to support preconceived idea’s, rather than letting scripture explain itself. This is not to mention all merchants, craftsmen, traders, and musicians or entertainers of the earth as well you are not considering. You choose to leave such details out, because they do not fit into your chosen scenario. So be it.

Jerusalem was not destroyed by the Roman armies in one hour, nor did all the earth mourn her destruction.

Rev 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. 3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies………
17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,………………..
22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be,[/u] shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee; 23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

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These were all first-century events, Amo.  They were presently “AT HAND” then, and are  ancient history at present.  You can’t expect the vast multitudes of persecuted, DEAD Christians of that era to make a detailed record of the resurrection for your perusal.  After all, they were raptured from earth to heaven along with the returning Christ, without time to sit down and make that personal record of events that you demand.

As already pointed out, several of the events predicted in Mathew 24 have not happened yet. Apart from this, according to your own understanding, the events described in Mathew 24 would have to transpire between the death of Christ and 70AD, not over the entirety of the first century. This is not to mention the events of the book of Revelation having to transpire within two years at the most, according to Preterist agenda driven dating. Again, BALONEY! 

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The rest of the first-century believers obeyed Christ’s instructions to FLEE Jerusalem and Judea once they saw Jerusalem encircled with armies.  They were not personally around to be an eye-witness of Christ’s Mount of Olives return, where all the resurrected saints converged.  They fled to Pella in the Decapolis, among other distant locations. 

What those believers did have was the record JESUS gave them of when He would return and the signs attending that return, before all that generation had died.  Though they didn’t personally see this return, (since only “those who pierced Him” would be the eye-witnesses), Jesus’ prophetic words were sufficient evidence for them, and should be sufficient evidence for YOU.

To the contrary, you are one of the deceivers our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and the apostles warned us about. Declaring that Jesus returned at such and such a place and time in history. Why have you twisted the words of scripture declaring that every eye shall see Him when he returns, including “those who pierced Him”? Is it not because you peddle deception?

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Mt 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be…………………
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


You preach that Christ was at Jerusalem in 70AD, and nobody saw him save the resurrected at that time, and those who were destroyed. Such places you among the false prophets of the above verses.
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Sun Dec 20, 2020 - 20:22:25
Amo, you’ve got quite a laundry list that you expect to be covered.  Though I’m sure if I give due attention to repeating my scriptural and historical arguments all over again on each point for your inspection in this particular Adventist forum, that you would only deride the effort and heap vitriol on it.  My time on the weekend is limited, so I can only touch on a few of your challenges.

#1)  Revelation’s date of authorship was NOT 2-3 years before AD 70, as you have correctly said that many Preterists have mistakenly assumed.  It was written no more than a few months before the devastating AD 60 Laodicean earthquake, while that self-satisfied church was still “increasing in goods” before the city’s destruction.  Also, it was written 666 YEARS after the Sea Beast of Rev. 13 (beginning with its ancient history of the lion kingdom of Nebuchadnezzar) had deported the first group of Jews from Jerusalem, and started their 70 years of Babylonian captivity in 607 BC.  If we do the math, 666 years after 607 BC = late AD 59 to early AD 60 for Revelation’s composition date.

#2)  “Every eye shall see him, EVEN (kai) they which pierced Him” specifically LIMITS that view of a returning Christ to those tribes of the earth who pierced Christ and had a blood curse called down on themselves and their children of that first-century generation. 

You are presuming that the one little Greek word “Kai” means “in addition to”.  Not necessarily.  “Kai” has two Greek options of interpretation; either as a simple conjunction meaning “in addition to” OR it can be used as we would use the words “namely”, or “specifically” in an explanatory sense.  As in James 3:9, “Therewith bless we God EVEN (kai - namely) the Father...”.  It was the tribes of the earth, “EVEN (kai - NAMELY) those who pierced Him”, who would see His return.  Not the entire globe’s inhabitants simultaneously; a physical impossibility for Christ returning to a specific Mount of Olives location.

#3)  The “living and REMAINING” saints that were to be raptured in I Thess. 4:15&17 were not just those ordinary saints “alive” at Christ’s return who were to be raptured.  Check the Greek term for “REMAIN”.  “Perileipomenoi” carries the sense of a group being especially RESERVED or SET APART for a specific designated purpose and a specific period of time. 

This reserved group was the SEALED 144,000 “First-fruits” Matt. 27:52-53 saints; the same  “First-fruits” that the apostle Paul said the Roman believers “HAD” among their number (Romans 8:23) back then.  These “First-fruits” were made “ALIVE” in the “First Resurrection” in AD 33, and they were sealed to “REMAIN” on earth until they were raptured in I Thess 4.  At the last trumpet (7th trumpet in Rev. 11:19), the temple of God in heaven was opened, allowing access for the raptured, resurrected, glorified bodies of men to ascend and finally enter it (Rev. 15:8).

Besides Romans 8:23, Hebrews 12:23 and 13:2 describe these resurrected 144,000 “First-fruits” Matt. 27 saints.  III John 5-7 speaks about them.  So does Ephesians 4:8-12.  And the first sickle harvest of Rev. 14:14-16 is the Matt. 27:52-53 resurrected saints.   They are the anti-type fulfillment of the type of the “First-fruits” harvest presented in Leviticus 23:9-12.  They are the indestructible “camp of the saints” within the city of Jerusalem, which became surrounded by Gog, the main leader Simon bar Giora of the Zealot rebellion in AD 69-70.   These “alive and remaining” resurrected saints provided a witness for Christ right up to the very end.  Then they were raptured out of the city through the eastern gate to meet the Lord in the air as He left the Mount of Olives to return to heaven with all His resurrected saints.

Hymenaeus and Philetus based their false doctrine of a one-and-only past resurrection event around the very public existence of these resurrected Matt. 27:52-53 saints.  They didn’t realize that they were only the “FIRST-fruits” of the other resurrection events to come - one in AD 70, and one in our own future.

Quadratus the earliest Christian apologist gave testimony of the resurrected saints’ existence in his address to the emperor Hadrian.  Genuine miraculous resurrections who had “remained” on earth.

#4)  It is NOT the living saints who were to be “changed” into incorruptible forms in I Cor. 15; it was the *DEAD* BODIES of the saints (all of those asleep in the grave) who would be changed in the twinkling of an eye, at the last  (7th) trump of  Revelation.  Not one of all those saints would stay sleeping in death; ALL of the dead saints would be changed.

A “translation” change of the living is nowhere mentioned in either I Thess 4 or I Cor. 15.  ALL are appointed to die the one time (Heb. 9:27).

#5)  Did you miss what I wrote about the archaeological evidence of the prophesied earthquake filling up the Kidron Valley with landslide rubble at Christ’s AD 70 return?  It was prophesied in Zech 14:4-5 (LXX) to fill up the valley as far as Azal, which it did in both King Uzziah’s day and in AD 70.  The two dated layers of rubble are still lying there in the Kidron Valley, which have raised the river’s bed by some 40’.

Historical evidence of Christ’s return?  We have casualty lists and AD 66 census records from Ussher’s Annals of the World we can compare which shows us that about 1.25 million people fled Jerusalem in obedience to Christ’s warning to flee both Jerusalem and Judea when they saw “Jerusalem compassed by armies” (Luke 21:20-21).  THEY believed Jesus’s warning about those last days when “the powers of heaven shall be shaken” (Luke 21:26), even if you don’t, Amo.

#6)  “Gospel preached in all the world” before AD 70?  There was a post that covered this pretty extensively long ago in the Preterist forum, but here are just a couple off the cuff from Colossians 1:6 and 23.  “...the truth of the gospel; which is come unto you, AS IT IS IN ALL THE WORLD...”.   “...the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and WHICH WAS PREACHED TO EVERY CREATURE WHICH IS UNDER HEAVEN...”. You miss the fact that Jesus raised up the 144,000 “First-fruits” Matt. 27 saints to be used as an indestructible evangelistic labor force in those years after He ascended to heaven.  He left them as “laborers in the harvest” to work at building up the church before His AD 70 return.  Those resurrected saints had capabilities of traversing territory and reaching inaccessible areas that ordinary living saints could not cover by their limited resources.  By a combination of these ordinary and miraculous means, the gospel was indeed preached in all the world at that time before the end of the age came in AD 70.

#7)  What “falling away” transpired before AD 70?  The “apostasia” is not only a spiritual falling away (which actually took place especially in Asia, when all turned against Paul.  The “doctrine of Balaam” also corrupted many churches of that day with its lascivious doctrine.).

But the Greek term “apostasia” also encompasses the definition of a CIVIL REBELLION of a nation, which was launched officially with the revolt against Rome beginning in August of AD 66 (the attack on Roman troops at Masada and the cessation of sacrifices for the empire and the emperor in the temple, and the attack on the Roman troops garrisoned in the Fortress of Antonia).

This “mystery of lawlessness” - Zealot insurrection against Rome - was already at work, seething in the background in Paul’s day, and held in check by the high priesthood members loyal to Rome (the “who” that was restraining the Zealot outbreak - Ananaias ben Annas - as well as the “what” that was restraining the lawless Zealot outbreak - the high priesthood class).

The very first “Man of Lawlessness” competitor to battle his way to the top of the other Zealot leaders was Menahem, son or grandson of Judas the Galilean of Acts 5:37.   After murdering the high priest restrainer Ananias, (thus “taking him out of the way”), Menahem had a brief couple weeks with a meteoric rise of coming into power and actually getting into the temple, presenting himself as “king of the Jews”, dressed in King Herod’s stolen royal regalia.  This “brightness of his coming” into power was snuffed out almost immediately by Ananias’s son, Eleazar, taking vengeance on Menahem for murdering his high priest father.  It was NOT the brightness of CHRIST’S coming that killed Menahem, the Zealot Man of Lawlessness, because that “coming” was supposed to be after the works of Satan, using deception and  “lying wonders” (which would never be a sign of Christ’s coming).

#8)  What was the “strong delusion” that was believed before AD 70?  The Zealots gained a brief strategic victory against Cestius Gallus in AD 66, and routed that Roman legion completely at Beth Horon, stealing all their weaponry, war materiel, and catapults. 

Such a sudden victory at the very beginning of the Zealot’s revolt in AD 66 gave them a false sense of superiority and a deluded faith that God was on their side against the Romans.  Those who were wavering on whether to join the Zealot cause were then encouraged to get on board in the cause of the rebellion after that first major victory over the unfortunate, inept Roman general.  God let the Zealot factions believe this lie, in order to spur them on to their own nation’s destruction.

#9)  “Kings of the earth” being high priests based on only “one obscure reference”?  I would hardly call Christ’s words about this “obscure”, but yes, there is more than this one reference identifying “kings of the earth” as high priests.  Try Hannah’s testimony in the LXX extolling God, who “gives strength to OUR KINGS”, (and Saul the first literal king of Israel isn’t even born yet).  Has to be the high priest kings that God strengthened. 

You yourself, Amo, used the reference above that God formerly called Israel a “KINGdom of PRIESTS”.  This shows us that Israel’s royalty was in its Priesthood - not the usual sense of a monarchy ruling the nation.

The THRONE of the kingdom that the crowned Christ is currently sitting on in heaven is the mercy seat, with Jesus as the “prince of the kings of the earth” - the “king of kings” high priest upon that throne as our mediator, who supersedes all other high priest kings before Him.

High priests always wore a crown of gold encircling their forehead, with “Holiness to the Lord” engraved on it.  Crowns are for kings.  And the high priests were called kings often in the OT.  Try Melchizedek for one.  “KING of Salem...the PRIEST of the most high God” (Gen. 14:18).

We ourselves as saints are called “KINGS and (kai - NAMELY) PRIESTS unto God and His Father...” in Rev. 1:6.

That’s the best I can do at short notice this evening Amo.  Though I don’t think any of this will register with you - you’re too firmly entrenched in your position to consider that you might be off track somewhere.   But I don’t consider you a “false prophet”  - just a mistaken one on a bunch of eschatology, but not on everything.  Much of your material above on Old Covenant Israel versus the New Covenant Israel of God is very sound. 

And I’m also not a fan of the mystery meat baloney either...
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: Amo on Sat Dec 26, 2020 - 10:32:14
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Amo, you’ve got quite a laundry list that you expect to be covered.  Though I’m sure if I give due attention to repeating my scriptural and historical arguments all over again on each point for your inspection in this particular Adventist forum, that you would only deride the effort and heap vitriol on it.  My time on the weekend is limited, so I can only touch on a few of your challenges.

#1)  Revelation’s date of authorship was NOT 2-3 years before AD 70, as you have correctly said that many Preterists have mistakenly assumed.  It was written no more than a few months before the devastating AD 60 Laodicean earthquake, while that self-satisfied church was still “increasing in goods” before the city’s destruction.  Also, it was written 666 YEARS after the Sea Beast of Rev. 13 (beginning with its ancient history of the lion kingdom of Nebuchadnezzar) had deported the first group of Jews from Jerusalem, and started their 70 years of Babylonian captivity in 607 BC.  If we do the math, 666 years after 607 BC = late AD 59 to early AD 60 for Revelation’s composition date.

I will address your numbered points one at a time for clarity and time sake.

What a mess you make of biblical prophecy, while adding only 7 or 8 years equaling a grand total of ten years altogether for the fulfillment of 22 chapters of biblical prophecy. All culminating in an event that few to none have even known of since its supposed fulfillment, with no historical testimony regarding it.

This concerning an event which scripture testifies will be seen by every eye, causing all the kindreds of earth to wail (Rev 1:7). And all of the tribes of the earth to mourn because they see Him (Mt 24:30). And all nations to be gathered before Him to be judged and separated (Mt 25:31-33). Jesus Himself declaring that all who should say He came in a particular place or time already, without being seen by all, were false prophets (Mt 24:23-27). Yet here you are preaching that Jesus already returned in a certain place, which was and has been a secret to most of humanity. So be it.

The beast of Rev 13 which rises out of the sea is not the first biblical beast of prophecy brought forth in Dan 7 like unto a lion. The first beast of Rev 13, which is the fifth consecutive beast of biblical prophecy and first one of the new covenant era, has components of the first four beasts of the book of Daniel before it. Which beasts are referenced in reverse order, going back in time as they existed, ending with your mentioned lion beast which was the first prophetic beast of Daniel 7. 

Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. 2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

Papal Rome arose among the peoples, nations, and tongues of the pagan Roman Empire. Therefore is her religion an amalgamation of the religious beliefs and practices of the same. All of which are the abominations of her golden cup with which she intoxicated the kings of the earth during the dark ages, and is presently intoxicating all nations unto the healing of her deadly wound.

Rev 17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

There are seven distinct beasts, kings, heads of the dragon, and mountains of biblical prophecy (Rev 17:7-11). They are the consecutive kingdoms through which the Devil has carried on his rebellion against God on this earth. As the Devil’s counterfeits of God’s kingdom in this world, they took on a new spiritual and universal nature during this new covenant era in direct response to God’s universal spiritual kingdom of this new covenant established in Christ Jesus our Lord. The Papacies global unification of humanity movements, are the Devil’s counterfeit to the universal spiritual kingdom of God in this new covenant era, which includes the saved of every nation and tongue.

The resurrection of the Papal ridden beast on a global scale is the Devil’s counterfeit resurrection as apposed and opposed to Christ’s, unto the unity of fallen humanity in rebellion against God under his church’s banner. He is the head, and unified humanity in rebellion against God are his body. As Christ is the head of His body the Church, so Satan is the head of his body, the papacy.  Christ’s Church unifying in submission to the authority of God unto salvation, and Satan’s church unifying through compromise of the same under the intoxicating influence of the papacy(BABYLON THE GREAT), unto damnation and destruction. Therefore the call for all to come out of Babylon.

Rev 18:1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. 2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. 3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. 4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. 5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. 6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double. 7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow. 8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

Why do you support BABYLON THE GREAT, in pretending that the above warning was and is only concerning the people of literal Jerusalem before its destruction in AD70? Why will you deny the universal nature of Christ’s present spiritual kingdom, and therefore prophetic utterance of the same? You error is of a most detrimental nature towards the unsaved masses of this world. Leaving them without proper warning of the things coming upon this earth, and therefore without proper conviction to prepare for the same through salvation in Christ Jesus our Lord. Who Himself sent these messages to the world unto salvation. So be it. Nevertheless, I feel compelled of course, to call you out of Babylon. Come out, that you might not receive if her plagues.
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Sat Dec 26, 2020 - 13:02:19
Amo, we are speaking past each other a bit, which is adding confusion.

I do agree with you that the Rev. 13 Sea Beast is a blend of all former beast kingdoms of lion, bear, and leopard - all subsumed into the final great and terrible beast.  It was all the powers of those former empires that passed from one kingdom to the next (Chaldean to Medo-Persian, then to Greek, finally passing to the final Roman phase of that Sea Beast existing in John’s days).

This had been a combined 666 years up until John wrote Revelation of world-dominating rule, backed by the demonic realm that was about to be crushed to dust by Christ (the Stone cut without hands) in the end of the AD 70 judgment. 

The main reason I can’t extend the identity of this former Roman phase of the Sea Beast into the Roman Catholic Church of either the past or the present is Rev. 2:13 when we compare it with Rev. 13:2.  The Sea Beast of Rev. 13:2 was given Satan’s throne (the same thing as the Dragon’s throne).  That throne is specifically defined for us in Rev. 2:13 as being a throne IN THE CITY OF PERGAMOS.  I ask you, Amo:  When was a specific throne in the city of Pergamos ever given by Satan to the Catholic Church? 

Yet we have a record of this transfer of the entire devil-worshipping Pergamon kingdom and its throne in the city of Pergamos being given to the Roman Republic in 133 BC by the dying King Attalus.  He had no heir to pass his kingdom to, so instead, he bequeathed it in his will to his ally, the Roman Republic.  This transfer of the throne and the Pergamon kingdom to the Roman phase of the Sea Beast was recorded in the Roman senate. 

Even today, you can see a photo of that “throne of Satan” in the newly-revamped Berlin Pergamos museum, where that 40’ tall altar to Zeus was reassembled after Germany moved it from the original site in Pergamos.  Just why Germany thought that was a good idea at the time is beyond me.

Mystery Babylon of Rev. 17 holding aloft a cup that was COMPLETELY FILLED UP is the pictorial presentation of that first-century generation of scribes and hypocritical Pharisees in Jerusalem that Jesus said would “FILL UP THE MEASURE OF YOUR FATHERS” (Matt. 23:31-32).  It was first-century Jerusalem that Jesus mourned over in Matt. 23:37 that would have the blood guilt on its hands of all the righteous killed since Abel.  That generation at its culmination filled up the cup’s measure of offenses completely, and was judged accordingly for shedding the blood of its prophesied Messiah (and by inclusion, all the righteous IN CHRIST who had been martyred up to that point).

Jerusalem and its religious leadership had a long, notorious history of killing and stoning the prophets and wise men sent unto her.  As a formerly “faithful city” who turned against her Lord, covenant-breaking Jerusalem was labeled a “harlot” in the OT (Isaiah 1:21). This is the very same description given about faithless Jerusalem in Rev. 17:3.

The lesson that current generations can take from seeing God fulfill His vengeance on first-century Jerusalem and that nation is that HE ALWAYS KEEPS HIS PROMISES EXACTLY WHEN AND WHERE HE PREDICTS THEM TO HAPPEN.  Is this not reassuring to a saint in any generation, ourselves included?

Don’t know why you can’t tell the scriptural difference between the “kings of the earth” and the “kings of the whole habitable world” as mentioned separately in Rev. 16:14.  It was the “kings of the earth” as high priest rulers that were prophesied to stand up and “take counsel together” against Jesus to “cast away thy cords from us” by crucifying Him (Psalms 2:2).  In spite of all the conniving, devious plans of the high priests Caiphas and Annas, God still set Jesus as a “King” upon His holy hill of Zion (a high priest “king” after the deathless order of Melchizedek).  If you  can ever get the “kings of the earth” correctly identified as the “high priests of the land of Israel” Amo, it would certainly be helpful to your interpretations.

Amo, I believe you are inventing SEVEN Beasts from Revelation.  There are only THREE that were described in Rev. 13 and 17.   One from the sea - that then-present Roman phase of the Sea Beast - and a two-horned Judean Beast coming from the land of Israel, with the final Scarlet Judean Beast found in the wilderness.  The “seven kings” were not 7 kingdoms - different Greek term altogether, with different gender designations also between those Greek terms, I believe, so we can easily distinguish the difference between kings and kingdoms.

Not sure why you think that I “deny the universal nature of Christ’s present spiritual kingdom”.  ???  That kingdom of Christ (Daniel’s stone cut without hands) SIMULTANEOUSLY in the end of AD 70 crushed the ENTIRE demonic realm that had been operating behind all the statue’s world-wide empires up until that time.   Once Satan and his entire demonic realm was utterly destroyed, Christ confiscated ALL the crowns of power that Satan as the “prince of the kingdoms of this world” had once exercised by his 7-horned power, after crushing him to dust back then that blew away on the wind - literally.

This is how the Son of Man with a SINGLE CROWN (of the high priesthood) in Rev. 14 ended up with MANY CROWNS in Rev. 11:15 and 19:12, after confiscating all Satan’s former kingdom powers over this world that he had once boasted about in Luke 4:5-6.

I’m not sitting in “Babylon” as you mistakenly understand it.  And I have indeed given warning on this website of exactly when I believe this world will go through a judgment period in our near future.  It’s just not the list of particular dangers that YOU think are impending from Revelation, since all of those unsealed prophecies were “AT HAND” and presently to happen in THEIR DAYS - not “prolonged” into our days that are times far removed from John’s generation (as defined extensively by God Himself in Ezekiel 12:21-28).

When you disregard Revelation’s own self-imposed time markers that God and the writer gave to you, it’s as if you are trying to interpret a map without paying any attention to the compass orientation or the map legend.  Naturally, your interpretations will get twisted in the wrong direction.
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: Amo on Sat Dec 26, 2020 - 18:35:16
Quote
#2)  “Every eye shall see him, EVEN (kai) they which pierced Him” specifically LIMITS that view of a returning Christ to those tribes of the earth who pierced Christ and had a blood curse called down on themselves and their children of that first-century generation. 

You are presuming that the one little Greek word “Kai” means “in addition to”.  Not necessarily.  “Kai” has two Greek options of interpretation; either as a simple conjunction meaning “in addition to” OR it can be used as we would use the words “namely”, or “specifically” in an explanatory sense.  As in James 3:9, “Therewith bless we God EVEN (kai - namely) the Father...”.  It was the tribes of the earth, “EVEN (kai - NAMELY) those who pierced Him”, who would see His return.  Not the entire globe’s inhabitants simultaneously; a physical impossibility for Christ returning to a specific Mount of Olives location.

I am not the one presuming anything. You are presuming the verse means that which no translator I know of, has ever attempted to specify concerning the scripture under examination. You are also presuming that at the second coming Christ Himself who is verily God, will be physically limited to the same existence and or dimensions that we are. This you do in defiance of God’s word which testifies to the opposite effect, in the declaration that every eye will see Him alone, let alone other verses which clearly establish the supernatural nature of His return. Emphasis in the following quoted scripture is mine. You are of course free to supply a translation which specifies your own view if you can.

Revelation 1:7 Amplified Bible (AMP)
7 Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes (nations) of the earth will mourn over Him [realizing their sin and guilt, and anticipating the coming wrath]. [a]So it is to be. Amen.

Revelation 1:7 Expanded Bible (EXB)
7 Look [Behold], Jesus is coming with the clouds [Dan. 7:13–14], and ·everyone [every eye] will see him, even those who ·stabbed [pierced] him [C a reference to the crucifixion; Zech. 12:10]. And all ·peoples [people groups; tribes] of the earth will ·cry loudly [wail; mourn] because of him. ·Yes, this will happen [So it shall be;  Yes]! Amen.

Revelation 1:7 Wycliffe Bible (WYC)
7 Lo! he cometh with clouds, and each eye shall see him, and they that pricked him; and all the kindreds of the earth shall bewail themselves on him [and all kindreds, or lineages, of earth shall wail themselves on him]. Yea, Amen!

Revelation 1:7 King James Version (KJV)
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Revelation 1:7 21st Century King James Version (KJ21)
7 Behold, He cometh with clouds, and every eye shall see Him, and they also who pierced Him; and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so. Amen.

Revelation 1:7 American Standard Version (ASV)
7 Behold, he cometh with the clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they that pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth shall mourn over him. Even so, Amen.

Revelation 1:7 New American Bible (Revised Edition) (NABRE)
7 Behold, he is coming amid the clouds,
    and every eye will see him,
    even those who pierced him.
All the peoples of the earth will lament him.
    Yes. Amen.

Revelation 1:7 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
7 Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. [a]So it is to be. Amen.

Revelation 1:7 New International Version (NIV)
7 “Look, he is coming with the clouds,”
    and “every eye will see him,
even
those who pierced him”;
    and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”
So shall it be! Amen.

Shall I continue? You are the one who is choosing to see what is not there, not I or all of the bible translators which I know of. Are you not? Please do provide the many translations there must be of something apparently so obvious, if you can.
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: Amo on Sat Dec 26, 2020 - 18:40:20
Do you see the Google adds dispersed throughout your last post, or is this just what I see? These adds irk me to no end. You're trying to make a point or address someone else's, and these idiotic adds break up the train of thought you are attempting to express. Google chaps my hide. I wish I could remove them from my computer altogether.
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: Amo on Sat Dec 26, 2020 - 19:29:18
Amo, we are speaking past each other a bit, which is adding confusion.

I do agree with you that the Rev. 13 Sea Beast is a blend of all former beast kingdoms of lion, bear, and leopard - all subsumed into the final great and terrible beast.  It was all the powers of those former empires that passed from one kingdom to the next (Chaldean to Medo-Persian, then to Greek, finally passing to the final Roman phase of that Sea Beast existing in John’s days).

This had been a combined 666 years up until John wrote Revelation of world-dominating rule, backed by the demonic realm that was about to be crushed to dust by Christ (the Stone cut without hands) in the end of the AD 70 judgment. 

The main reason I can’t extend the identity of this former Roman phase of the Sea Beast into the Roman Catholic Church of either the past or the present is Rev. 2:13 when we compare it with Rev. 13:2.  The Sea Beast of Rev. 13:2 was given Satan’s throne (the same thing as the Dragon’s throne).  That throne is specifically defined for us in Rev. 2:13 as being a throne IN THE CITY OF PERGAMOS.  I ask you, Amo:  When was a specific throne in the city of Pergamos ever given by Satan to the Catholic Church? 

Yet we have a record of this transfer of the entire devil-worshipping Pergamon kingdom and its throne in the city of Pergamos being given to the Roman Republic in 133 BC by the dying King Attalus.  He had no heir to pass his kingdom to, so instead, he bequeathed it in his will to his ally, the Roman Republic.  This transfer of the throne and the Pergamon kingdom to the Roman phase of the Sea Beast was recorded in the Roman senate. 

Even today, you can see a photo of that “throne of Satan” in the newly-revamped Berlin Pergamos museum, where that 40’ tall altar to Zeus was reassembled after Germany moved it from the original site in Pergamos.  Just why Germany thought that was a good idea at the time is beyond me.

Mystery Babylon of Rev. 17 holding aloft a cup that was COMPLETELY FILLED UP is the pictorial presentation of that first-century generation of scribes and hypocritical Pharisees in Jerusalem that Jesus said would “FILL UP THE MEASURE OF YOUR FATHERS” (Matt. 23:31-32).  It was first-century Jerusalem that Jesus mourned over in Matt. 23:37 that would have the blood guilt on its hands of all the righteous killed since Abel.  That generation at its culmination filled up the cup’s measure of offenses completely, and was judged accordingly for shedding the blood of its prophesied Messiah (and by inclusion, all the righteous IN CHRIST who had been martyred up to that point).

Jerusalem and its religious leadership had a long, notorious history of killing and stoning the prophets and wise men sent unto her.  As a formerly “faithful city” who turned against her Lord, covenant-breaking Jerusalem was labeled a “harlot” in the OT (Isaiah 1:21). This is the very same description given about faithless Jerusalem in Rev. 17:3.

The lesson that current generations can take from seeing God fulfill His vengeance on first-century Jerusalem and that nation is that HE ALWAYS KEEPS HIS PROMISES EXACTLY WHEN AND WHERE HE PREDICTS THEM TO HAPPEN.  Is this not reassuring to a saint in any generation, ourselves included?

Don’t know why you can’t tell the scriptural difference between the “kings of the earth” and the “kings of the whole habitable world” as mentioned separately in Rev. 16:14.  It was the “kings of the earth” as high priest rulers that were prophesied to stand up and “take counsel together” against Jesus to “cast away thy cords from us” by crucifying Him (Psalms 2:2).  In spite of all the conniving, devious plans of the high priests Caiphas and Annas, God still set Jesus as a “King” upon His holy hill of Zion (a high priest “king” after the deathless order of Melchizedek).  If you  can ever get the “kings of the earth” correctly identified as the “high priests of the land of Israel” Amo, it would certainly be helpful to your interpretations.

Amo, I believe you are inventing SEVEN Beasts from Revelation.  There are only THREE that were described in Rev. 13 and 17.   One from the sea - that then-present Roman phase of the Sea Beast - and a two-horned Judean Beast coming from the land of Israel, with the final Scarlet Judean Beast found in the wilderness.  The “seven kings” were not 7 kingdoms - different Greek term altogether, with different gender designations also between those Greek terms, I believe, so we can easily distinguish the difference between kings and kingdoms.

Not sure why you think that I “deny the universal nature of Christ’s present spiritual kingdom”.  ???  That kingdom of Christ (Daniel’s stone cut without hands) SIMULTANEOUSLY in the end of AD 70 crushed the ENTIRE demonic realm that had been operating behind all the statue’s world-wide empires up until that time.   Once Satan and his entire demonic realm was utterly destroyed, Christ confiscated ALL the crowns of power that Satan as the “prince of the kingdoms of this world” had once exercised by his 7-horned power, after crushing him to dust back then that blew away on the wind - literally.

This is how the Son of Man with a SINGLE CROWN (of the high priesthood) in Rev. 14 ended up with MANY CROWNS in Rev. 11:15 and 19:12, after confiscating all Satan’s former kingdom powers over this world that he had once boasted about in Luke 4:5-6.

I’m not sitting in “Babylon” as you mistakenly understand it.  And I have indeed given warning on this website of exactly when I believe this world will go through a judgment period in our near future.  It’s just not the list of particular dangers that YOU think are impending from Revelation, since all of those unsealed prophecies were “AT HAND” and presently to happen in THEIR DAYS - not “prolonged” into our days that are times far removed from John’s generation (as defined extensively by God Himself in Ezekiel 12:21-28).

When you disregard Revelation’s own self-imposed time markers that God and the writer gave to you, it’s as if you are trying to interpret a map without paying any attention to the compass orientation or the map legend.  Naturally, your interpretations will get twisted in the wrong direction.

The prophetic messages to the seven churches are just that. They are prophetic messages to the churches of Christ, at the time given, and with future application throughout time, and to the faults of the church as a whole throughout history. They are all given warning and hope of repentance, as all truly in Christ must be chastised from time to time unto conviction, conversion, and growth or sanctification. The prophecies concerning the beasts and Babylon are not by way of instruction to Christ's own, but rather by way of warning against being part of them. They cannot repent, because the dragon gives them their power and seat, not the other way around. You are mixing apples and oranges. Mixing prophecies directly for Christ's church unto repentance, with prophecies directly for Satans church or kingdoms unto deliverance from the same for all who will heed them. One is about correction and repentance within the church, the other is about calling people out of institutions, religions, and or governments beyond repentance under the control of the evil one.

The church of Pergamos was simply where Satan's seat was literally located, but the dragon or Satan did not give them their power or place. The beasts and Babylon receive their power and seat from the dragon. Though the second beast of Revelation 13 did not, which is these United States. It arose out of the earth, not the sea. It had two horns like a lamb in the beginning, but ends up speaking as a dragon. As we ever increasingly do.

The sea beast is not pagan Rome, and did not exist yet during John's day at all. Though it was slowly developing during the days of the apostles, and would shortly come to pass after their days. As the book of Revelation addresses that which would shortly begin to pass during the new covenant age, and is a guiding unfolding work for the new covenant Church. The Apostle Paul also addressed the fact that it was already developing in his day.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

The book of Revelation addresses this mystery of iniquity far more extensively than Paul did above.

Rev 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters: 2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. 3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. 4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: 5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. 6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration. 7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

BABYLON THE GREAT is the system of the mystery of iniquity Paul spoke of, the Pope of Rome is the man of sin who heads the system, and the beasts are the governments whom she intoxicates and commits fornication with, which she rides.




 

Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Sat Dec 26, 2020 - 22:34:46
Amo, you aren’t paying attention to the language about the seat of the Dragon which he gave to the Sea Beast.  That seat or throne was just given to the Sea Beast alone.  Satan the Dragon did NOT give his own seat in Pergamos to Mystery Babylon riding the Scarlet Beast in the wilderness - just to the Sea Beast that in John’s days had a 666-year-old biographical history that had existed ever since the first lion kingdom, led by Nebuchadnezzar. 

You may think the Sea Beast was not yet in existence in John’s days, but that Rev. 13 list of “leopard, bear, and lion” features for the Sea Beast shows us it had existed as early as Nebuchadnezzar’s “lion” empire.

And the Land Beast cannot possibly be the United States, because that Land Beast exercised the same power of the Sea Beast “before him” and “in the sight of” the Sea Beast.  That means the Sea Beast and the Land Beast were contemporaries at some point, with the Land Beast operating in the DIRECT VIEW and under the eyesight of the Sea Beast.

I know I keep harping on this, but you also have never addressed the “AT HAND” terms John used to describe all of the unsealed future prophecies found from the very beginning to the very end of Revelation.  This term is not just wasted ink on John’s part in Rev. 1:3 and 22:10.  It actually MEANS something.   God already told us in Ezekiel 12:21-28 when “AT HAND” prophecies are to be fulfilled, and they are NOT to be “prolonged” into “times that are far off”.  This would eliminate any application of Revelation’s unsealed prophecies to the RCC, for it certainly is a “time far off” compared to when John was writing. 

The “Wicked One” and his angels are no longer in existence today to play any part in governments or religious institutions since he was “crushed” under the feet of the saints, as Paul promised was “shortly” to take place in Romans 16:20.  What IS a threat today is the “children of the devil”, as Christ labeled them, besides our own tendency to engage in sinful activities and thoughts.

It makes no difference if you think this large an amount of future prophecy could not possibly be fulfilled in a ten year span before AD 70’s end.  If GOD says they were all “AT HAND” in John’s days, then YOU are the one who must adjust to HIS terms, not He to your assumptions.

One of the main problems you have, Amo, is trying to make the term “the EARTH” (tes ges) refer to the entire WORLD at large in Revelation (which would be “oikoumenen” instead.  “Tes ges” is usually specific to the land of Israel in scripture.  Such as Hebrews 8:4, for just one example.  Speaking of the ascended Christ, it says “For if He were ON EARTH” (ges - the land of Israel), “He should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law...”

Those “tribes of the EARTH” (tes ges) seeing Christ’s return were specifically some of ethnic Israel’s 12 tribes seeing that return.  The mournful “weeping and gnashing of teeth” of these tribes was specifically from those who claimed that “We have EATEN AND DRUNK IN THY PRESENCE, and THOU HAST TAUGHT IN OUR STREETS.” (Luke 13:25-29).  There is only one specific generation that could legitimately claim a personal encounter with the incarnate Christ eating and drinking with them face to face and teaching in their streets, and that was the first century generation of Israelites.

It was THESE Israelite tribes of the land of Israel (tes ges) that would be the “every eye”  of those tribes who pierced Him that would witness His physical return.  And that return was done in the same glorified body in which Christ ascended from the Mount of Olives.  And to the very same mountain location also,  according to Zechariah 14:4-5. 

If you’re wanting me to give a translation that makes the “every eye” term limited to only those who pierced Him, you have already given some of them yourself above when they translate “Kai” as “EVEN they which pierced Him”.  The word “Even” means “namely” in this text.  Vines Greek NT dictionary lists the various uses of this word “Kai”, and acknowledges that it is possible that it can be used in an “epexegetic or explanatory” manner when followed by a noun in apposition.  While not the more common occurrence, yet there are other examples in scripture besides Rev. 1:7 where “Kai” cannot be used as a normal conjunction meaning “in addition to”.  Do you need some of these other scripture examples that show “Kai” being used in an explanatory sense instead of meaning “also”?

Even the KJV INSERTS  the word “also” in italics, which leads you to misunderstand that this witness of Christ’s return extended also to the entire world “...and every eye shall see him, and (kai) they” (also) “which pierced him...”

If you can’t tell by now, I am VERY, VERY serious about the fine print in scripture.  So much of my understanding from my former training I have had to trash, simply because I skipped over the smaller details and gave no regard to the original languages, the time markers, and the particular audience relevance of whom the books were written to in the first place.  Makes all the difference in the world.

As for the Google ads you are noticing, I’m not seeing them myself within my comment.  As a rule, is that typical of other posts that you read?
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: Amo on Sun Jan 03, 2021 - 11:40:41
I haven't forgotten about this thread 3 Resurrections. Just trying to prevent to much splintering and confusion. I have not yet even nearly finished addressing your points which I said I would address one at a time for clarities sake. I have a couple of posts I was going to post in response to your latest posts, but have decided I need to finish addressing the points I already started first, again for the sake of clarity. It may be a little while therefore, before I can address all that you have already brought forward. Which I intend to present all at once, and then allow you to respond. Such is conducive unto organized and comprehensible dialogue, over sporadic, chaotic, and confused Babel.
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Sun Jan 03, 2021 - 12:25:33
Afternoon Amo,

You are right in attempting to simplify the discussion.  This is a weakness that both you and I share, I believe, to bite into more than we can chew at any one time. 

If I were to pare this discussion down to one single, overriding point that would clarify much of what we are differing about, it would be this:

Can you explain why all of the content of unsealed prophecy related to future events between Revelation 1:3 and Revelation 22:10 was described as being “AT HAND”?  When God already gave His own definition of what an “AT HAND” prophecy of the future entails in Ezekiel 12:21-28, we are not at liberty to extend the fulfillment of that kind of prophecy into “times that are far off” from when those prophecies are first made.  How do you justify doing this very thing with your interpretations of Revelation?  This is against God’s revealed definition (in Ezekiel 12:21-28) of what He meant by prophecies which He said were “AT HAND” in John’s days.

Clarify this one single point, and EVERYTHING ELSE under discussion above falls into its proper place on the timeline.  If we cannot agree on this single point, then there is no mutual ground we can both stand on to debate these issues.  We would just have to agree to disagree.
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: Amo on Fri Jan 22, 2021 - 09:58:05
Afternoon Amo,

You are right in attempting to simplify the discussion.  This is a weakness that both you and I share, I believe, to bite into more than we can chew at any one time. 

If I were to pare this discussion down to one single, overriding point that would clarify much of what we are differing about, it would be this:

Can you explain why all of the content of unsealed prophecy related to future events between Revelation 1:3 and Revelation 22:10 was described as being “AT HAND”?  When God already gave His own definition of what an “AT HAND” prophecy of the future entails in Ezekiel 12:21-28, we are not at liberty to extend the fulfillment of that kind of prophecy into “times that are far off” from when those prophecies are first made.  How do you justify doing this very thing with your interpretations of Revelation?  This is against God’s revealed definition (in Ezekiel 12:21-28) of what He meant by prophecies which He said were “AT HAND” in John’s days.

Clarify this one single point, and EVERYTHING ELSE under discussion above falls into its proper place on the timeline.  If we cannot agree on this single point, then there is no mutual ground we can both stand on to debate these issues.  We would just have to agree to disagree.

One scripture in one place, does not a doctrine make.

Joe 2:1  Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;

Read Joel chapter 2, and understand that the prophecy encompasses the army of the Lord which battles upon this earth, concerning the truths of God's word. A battle that will rage unto the end, the result of which will be the salvation of all who submit to God's word even unto the end of this world.

Joe 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: 29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. 30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. 32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

Act 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: 15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. 16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 20  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Were Peter and Joel contemporaries? Did Joel not claim that the prophecy he declared was at hand? Then how does Peter say it is fulfilled in his day? I tell you the truth, they were and are contemporaries, as all of God's servants are at all times in sharing the truths of holy scripture. Which truths are the salvation of condemnation of each and every soul in every generation unto the end. All of which is in direct relation to the end at the literal day of the Lord when He personally returns to this earth unto judgment. Which every soul throughout history will personally experience face to face with God. There is not a moment of history upon this world, at which time the fulfillment of God's prophecies have not been being accomplished and or at hand concerning the same. The word of God has depth and meaning we will be studying throughout the endless ages of eternity. Nor does this detract from specific fulfillment of His prophecies throughout history as well.

Declaring that a prophecy is at hand does not mean it is about to be literally and or completely fulfilled, as Peters reference to Joels prophecy clearly points out. Though it may at times, such as that you brought up in Ezekiel. The whole point of which was to declare that previous prophecies were about to be literally fulfilled and would tarry no longer.

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

The time of the prophecies were at hand. Things Daniel and other prophets had spoken concerning Christ and His spiritual kingdom being set up at His first coming were literally transpiring in His life, during the continued formation of His church,  and at the writing of the book of Revelation. Events of the book of Revelation were also already unfolding before, during, and after its completion.

Rev 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters: 2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. 3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. 4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: 5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. 6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration. 7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

Paul revealed that the above mystery was already at work during his day. Which mystery infiltrated the church of Christ and highjacked its mission unto joining the politics and kingdoms of this world, rather than calling all the saved out of it.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

The book of Revelation deals with these very declarations by Paul. Babylon the great is the mystery of iniquity developed from within the temple of God, which is the church in this new covenant era. The Pope of Rome is the man of sin, the Roman Catholic Church is Babylon the great, who commits fornication with the kings of this earth. Which truths bible believing Christians have proclaimed throughout the history of her development, and under the oppression of her political successes of the past and are now at hand again in the present. This being directly connected the rise, fatal wound, and resurrection of the sea beast which is ridden by the woman Babylon the great who holds the cup of the worlds abominations in her hand, which she gives all the world to drink.

Act 20:25 And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more. 26 Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men. 27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God. 28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. 29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. 31  Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears. 32 And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.

The prophecies of the book of Revelation were already unfolding in Paul's day, as he testified even before they were written. Nor did he warn of things pertaining to literal Israel or Jerusalem, but rather of the dangers entering right into the church. Which as I have told over and again, the prophecies of the book of revelation were written for, not Israel and Jerusalem of old. As the book itself testifies in addressing the churches of Christ immediately in the first chapters. The prophecies of this book were and are at hand for the church of Christ right up to the end. You are in great error relinquishing their significance to the past alone.

Nevertheless you deny doing this. Yet here again in the post I am addressing, what is your argument but that all is already fulfilled because Christ said the prophecies were at hand. I think it is about time, that you prove you are not a full fledged Preterist, by actually sharing interpretation of prophecy which proves otherwise. Thus far I see nothing but declarations that it has all already happened. This is your consistent argument, is it not? Please do show us otherwise. Thank you.


Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: Amo on Fri Jan 22, 2021 - 11:00:27
I guess it will take to long to wait until I have addressed all of your points before posting. So I will continue addressing your 9 points and other posts as time allows. The risk of confusion is better I reckon, than replies being so long in waiting that they no longer have much relevance. 

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#3)  The “living and REMAINING” saints that were to be raptured in I Thess. 4:15&17 were not just those ordinary saints “alive” at Christ’s return who were to be raptured.  Check the Greek term for “REMAIN”.  “Perileipomenoi” carries the sense of a group being especially RESERVED or SET APART for a specific designated purpose and a specific period of time. I will post my responses in the color blue, to avoid confusion regarding who is speaking or writing. 

This reserved group was the SEALED 144,000 “First-fruits” Matt. 27:52-53 saints; the same  “First-fruits” that the apostle Paul said the Roman believers “HAD” among their number (Romans 8:23) back then.  These “First-fruits” were made “ALIVE” in the “First Resurrection” in AD 33, and they were sealed to “REMAIN” on earth until they were raptured in I Thess 4.  At the last trumpet (7th trumpet in Rev. 11:19), the temple of God in heaven was opened, allowing access for the raptured, resurrected, glorified bodies of men to ascend and finally enter it (Rev. 15:8).

What an absolute mess.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Thessalonica was in northern Greece. Paul was addressing the Christians of that city, not saints resurrected at Christs resurrection in Jerusalem. The above resurrection takes place at Christs return, it has nothing to do with the resurrection of certain saints at His resurrection. The resurrection of the dead and the catching up of the living with them described above happen at the same time, not decades apart. Or are you suggesting there was a special resurrection at Christ’s, then another one in AD70, and then there will be another in the future? Is this why you call yourself 3Resurrections? Where are all the historical records or accounts of this resurrection in AD70 where the Lord descended “with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God”. You mean to tell me this event transpired right in front of everyone, and no one recorded such. Or are you saying the event was secret? Nonsense

1Cor 15:18Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Christ is the firstfruits of them that slept. Apart from His resurrection, there would be no other. The 144000 are the firstfruits unto God and the Lamb.

Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: 3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. 4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

The firstfruits Paul speaks of in Romans 8 are concerning the fruits of the spirit, not the firstfruits of the resurrection from the dead, or the firstfruits unto God and the Lamb. These firstfruits are not meant to convey that they are all the same event, but rather the first, foremost, or most important aspects of each separate event they are depicting or addressing. Christ was not the first and certainly will not be the last to be resurrected, but His resurrection was and is the most important one. The 144000 are certainly not the only redeemed of this world, but rather the foremost among humanity who followed the Lamb wherever He goes, spoke no deception from their mouths, and were without fault before the throne of God. You ignore the particulars of these scriptures and others in order align them in support of your preconceived ideas, certainly not to prove them. For they most certainly do not, unless context and detail are ignored.

 https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/firstfruits/

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Firstfruits
(Heb. resit [tyivaer]; Gk. aparche [ajparchv]). The concept of firstfruits derives from God's creation work. Because God created everything that exists, all of creation belongs to him ( Psalm 24:1 ). Consequently, that which is first and best belongs to him and is to be given to him.

Because of God's creative power and ownership of all, the Bible instructs believers to give God the best of the animal sacrifices (see Lev. 1-5). The land is also viewed as a gift from God and the best of it, its "firstfruits, " is to be given to him — crops ( Exodus 23:16 Exodus 23:19 ), the wheat harvest ( Exod 34:22 ; Lev 2:14 ; 23:20 ), olive oil ( Num 18:12 ; Deut 18:4 ), the finest new wine ( Num 18:12 ; Deut 18:4 ), honey ( 2 Chron 31:5 ), sheep wool ( Deut 18:4 ), and fruit ( Neh 10:35 ). The Old Testament makes it clear that everything that God's people have is to be viewed as from God and gained through his providence ( Psalm 50:10 ).

Believers are the "firstfruits" of God" a kind of firstfruits of all he created" ( Jas 1:18 ). Spiritual "firstfruits" may be the first converts in an area ( Rom 16:5 ). As "firstfruits" believers are a testimony to God's power in salvation. They are his first born, redeemed by Christ's blood. In their holy standing, believers are God's firstfruits" holy to the Lord, the firstfruits of his harvest" ( Jer 2:3 ). God's people are therefore to present themselves as holy firstfruits to God, as "living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God" ( Rom 12:1 ). In having the "firstfruits of the Spirit, " the work of the Spirit in effecting the present redemption of their souls, believers are given the guarantee that they will have the future redemption of their bodies at the second coming of Christ ( Rom 8:23 ).

In 1 Corinthians 15:20, 23, Paul teaches that Christ in his bodily resurrection is the "firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep." As such, he is the guarantee that all those who belong to him will be raised from the dead at his second coming. In the natural world, the first sheaf of the crop was to be brought to God ( Leviticus 23:10 Leviticus 23:11 Leviticus 23:17 ) as a guarantee that the rest of the harvest was coming. So it is in God's redemption harvest. First, Christ the "firstfruits" has triumphed in his resurrection; then, the rest of his "crop, " the redeemed, will be raised triumphantly at his second coming ( 1 Cor 15:23 ).

In light of this, God's people, as his "firstfruits, " are to have a sanctifying effect on others ( 1 Cor 5:6-7 ), just as Abraham and the patriarchs had a sanctifying effect on disobedient Israel ( Rom 11:14-16 ). Believers are to be true followers of the Lamb, just as the saints in the second coming, who are described as holy in life, "purchased from among men and offered as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb" ( Rev 14:4 ).

The term firstfruits is applied to different subjects or events making them prominent. It is not used as you are choosing to use it, as in indicating a common subject or event.

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Besides Romans 8:23, Hebrews 12:23 and 13:2 describe these resurrected 144,000 “First-fruits” Matt. 27 saints.  III John 5-7 speaks about them.  So does Ephesians 4:8-12.  And the first sickle harvest of Rev. 14:14-16 is the Matt. 27:52-53 resurrected saints.   They are the anti-type fulfillment of the type of the “First-fruits” harvest presented in Leviticus 23:9-12.  They are the indestructible “camp of the saints” within the city of Jerusalem, which became surrounded by Gog, the main leader Simon bar Giora of the Zealot rebellion in AD 69-70.   These “alive and remaining” resurrected saints provided a witness for Christ right up to the very end.  Then they were raptured out of the city through the eastern gate to meet the Lord in the air as He left the Mount of Olives to return to heaven with all His resurrected saints.

Hogwash! You are eaten up with old covenant local and literal interpretation of biblical prophecy in the persuit of conforming scripture to preconceived ideas. Abandon the above false testimony which neither scripture, or any historical accounts verify. All of the saints that were in Jerusalem when the Roman armies first surrounded it, fled before they came the second time as their Lord and Savior Jesus Christ warned them, and as history testifies.

https://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf201.iii.viii.v.html

Quote below from link above, emphasis is mine.

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Chapter V.—The Last Siege of the Jews after Christ.


1. After Nero had held the power thirteen years,622 and Galba and Otho had ruled a year and six months,623 Vespasian, who had become distinguished in the campaigns against the Jews, was proclaimed sovereign in Judea and received the title of Emperor from the armies there.624 Setting out immediately, therefore, for Rome, he entrusted the conduct of the war against the Jews to his son Titus.625
2. For the Jews after the ascension of our Saviour, in addition to their crime against him, had been devising as many plots as they could against his apostles. First Stephen was stoned to death by them,626 and after him James, the son of Zebedee and the brother of John, was beheaded,627 and finally James, the first that had obtained the episcopal seat in Jerusalem after the ascension of our Saviour, died in the manner already described.628 But the rest of the apostles, who had been incessantly plotted against with a view to their destruction, and had been driven out of the land of Judea, went unto all nations to preach the Gospel,629 relying upon the power of Christ, who had said to them, “Go ye and make disciples of all the nations in my name.”630
3. But the people of the church in Jerusalem had been commanded by a revelation, vouchsafed to approved men there before the war, to leave the city and to dwell in a certain town of Perea called Pella.631 And when those that believed in Christ had come thither from Jerusalem, then, as if the royal city of the Jews and the whole land of Judea were entirely destitute of holy men, the judgment of God at length overtook those who had committed such outrages against Christ and his apostles, and totally destroyed that generation of impious men.
4. But the number of calamities which everywhere fell upon the nation at that time; the extreme misfortunes to which the inhabitants of Judea were especially subjected, the thousands of men, as well as women and children, that perished by the sword, by famine, and by other forms of death innumerable,—all these things, as well as the many great sieges which were carried on against the cities of Judea, and the excessive. sufferings endured by those that fled to Jerusalem itself, as to a city of perfect safety, and finally the general course of the whole war, as well as its particular occurrences in detail, and how at last the abomination of desolation, proclaimed by the prophets,632 stood in the very temple of God, so celebrated of old, the temple which was now awaiting its total and final destruction by fire,—all these things any one that wishes may find accurately described in the history written by Josephus.633
5. But it is necessary to state that this writer records that the multitude of those who were assembled from all Judea at the time of the Passover, to the number of three million souls,634 were shut up in Jerusalem “as in a prison,” to use his own words.
6. For it was right that in the very days in which they had inflicted suffering upon the Saviour and the Benefactor of all, the Christ of God, that in those days, shut up “as in a prison,” they should meet with destruction at the hands of divine justice.
7. But passing by the particular calamities which they suffered from the attempts made upon them by the sword and by other means, I think it necessary to relate only the misfortunes which the famine caused, that those who read this work may have some means of knowing that God was not long in executing vengeance upon them for their wickedness against the Christ of God.

There were no new covenant saints in Jerusalem when it fell.

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Hymenaeus and Philetus based their false doctrine of a one-and-only past resurrection event around the very public existence of these resurrected Matt. 27:52-53 saints.  They didn’t realize that they were only the “FIRST-fruits” of the other resurrection events to come - one in AD 70, and one in our own future.

Quadratus the earliest Christian apologist gave testimony of the resurrected saints’ existence in his address to the emperor Hadrian.  Genuine miraculous resurrections who had “remained” on earth.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadratus_of_Athens

Quote below from link above, emphasis is mine.

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In his Ecclesiastical History, Book IV, chapter 3, Eusebius records that: 1. After Trajan had reigned for nineteen and a half years Ælius Adrian became his successor in the empire. To him Quadratus addressed a discourse containing an apology for our religion, because certain wicked men had attempted to trouble the Christians. The work is still in the hands of a great many of the brethren, as also in our own, and furnishes clear proofs of the man's understanding and of his apostolic orthodoxy. 2. He himself reveals the early date at which he lived in the following words: But the works of our Saviour were always present, for they were genuine:— those that were healed, and those that were raised from the dead, who were seen not only when they were healed and when they were raised, but were also always present; and not merely while the Saviour was on earth, but also after his death, they were alive for quite a while,[/b so that some of them lived even to our day. Such then was Quadratus.[3] In other words, Eusebius is stating that Quadratus addressed a discourse to the Roman Emperor Hadrian containing a defense, or apology, of the Christian religion, when the latter was visiting Athens in AD 124 or 125, which Eusebius states incorrectly[4] moved the emperor to issue a favourable edict. The mention that many of those healed or raised from the dead by Christ were still living seems to be part of an argument that Christ was no mere wonder-worker whose effects were transitory.

The above quote from Quadratus, quite disqualifies it as evidence of that which you teach. The reference is most obviously in relation to those healed and or resurrected while Christ was alive and well as one of us, not after or concurrent to His resurrection. For it specifically states, that they were not just present during His life, but also after His death. Some of them lived for quite a while after Christ’s death, but none of those you teach of ever died again. Quadratus simply was not talking about those you speak and teach of. None of those resurrected you are referring to, were alive and present during His life as one of us, but only after His resurrection. Nor do we have any record stating that those who came forth after Christ’s resurrection, remained among us. 2Ti 2:14  Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.


2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. 17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; 18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

Scripture does not say that Hymenaeus and Philetus error was preaching a one and only past resurrection, you have added your own testimony to that of scripture. The above scriptures clearly points out that their error was in teaching that the resurrection was past already. Which very thing you teach also. The resurrection the apostles spoke of and taught about, was not the resurrection you incorrectly teach and preach. If it was they could have clearly stated such, but instead Paul clearly stated the opposite in the above scriptures. Conclusively pointing out your teaching regarding the same as false.
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: Amo on Fri Jan 22, 2021 - 11:21:56
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#4)  It is NOT the living saints who were to be “changed” into incorruptible forms in I Cor. 15; it was the *DEAD* BODIES of the saints (all of those asleep in the grave) who would be changed in the twinkling of an eye, at the last  (7th) trump of  Revelation.  Not one of all those saints would stay sleeping in death; ALL of the dead saints would be changed.

A “translation” change of the living is nowhere mentioned in either I Thess 4 or I Cor. 15.  ALL are appointed to die the one time (Heb. 9:27).

More hogwash! The verses are quite clear. Not all will sleep, but all will be changed, including those living when Christ returns.

1 Cor 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43  It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

All will be changed from mortal to immortal, from corrupted to incorruption, from dishonor to glory, from weakness to power, from our natural bodies to spiritual bodies. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: Amo on Sat Jan 23, 2021 - 10:46:34
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#5)  Did you miss what I wrote about the archaeological evidence of the prophesied earthquake filling up the Kidron Valley with landslide rubble at Christ’s AD 70 return?  It was prophesied in Zech 14:4-5 (LXX) to fill up the valley as far as Azal, which it did in both King Uzziah’s day and in AD 70.  The two dated layers of rubble are still lying there in the Kidron Valley, which have raised the river’s bed by some 40’.

Historical evidence of Christ’s return?  We have casualty lists and AD 66 census records from Ussher’s Annals of the World we can compare which shows us that about 1.25 million people fled Jerusalem in obedience to Christ’s warning to flee both Jerusalem and Judea when they saw “Jerusalem compassed by armies” (Luke 21:20-21).  THEY believed Jesus’s warning about those last days when “the powers of heaven shall be shaken” (Luke 21:26), even if you don’t, Amo.

I most certainly do believe they fled as Christ commanded, as I have already stated. No earthquake was necessary to the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, as Roman armies accomplished this task very well, according to God’s word empowered by His hand as well no doubt. The signs Christ gave, and the earthquakes, were concerning events to transpire before Christ’s return, not at it. As Jesus Himself stated.

Mt 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? 4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

All the events described were to take place before Christ’s return, which is when this world ends as well. As Christ Himself testified.

Mt 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

The harvest is reaped at the end of the world, when Christ returns. He does not return before the end of this world, His return is the end of this world. There is no mention of the reaping of a harvest, or resurrection, or rapture, or secret coming of Christ unto such in scripture, prior to His second coming unto salvation for His own and destruction of the world. We are informed of a resurrection which took place at His resurrection, after which all biblical testimony is of no such thing again until He visibly returns again. Which has not happened, and which no one throughout history has claimed happened. Accepting perhaps those false prophets Jesus Himself stated would come, speaking just such lying testimony.
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: Amo on Sat Jan 23, 2021 - 10:49:05
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#6)  “Gospel preached in all the world” before AD 70?  There was a post that covered this pretty extensively long ago in the Preterist forum, but here are just a couple off the cuff from Colossians 1:6 and 23.  “...the truth of the gospel; which is come unto you, AS IT IS IN ALL THE WORLD...”.   “...the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and WHICH WAS PREACHED TO EVERY CREATURE WHICH IS UNDER HEAVEN...”. You miss the fact that Jesus raised up the 144,000 “First-fruits” Matt. 27 saints to be used as an indestructible evangelistic labor force in those years after He ascended to heaven.  He left them as “laborers in the harvest” to work at building up the church before His AD 70 return.  Those resurrected saints had capabilities of traversing territory and reaching inaccessible areas that ordinary living saints could not cover by their limited resources.  By a combination of these ordinary and miraculous means, the gospel was indeed preached in all the world at that time before the end of the age came in AD 70.

Your 144,000 scenario is wholly extra biblical. There is no testimony anywhere regarding resurrected saints bringing the gospel to the entire world prior AD70. Here you are again playing the Preterist, referring to their forums, and using their interpretations while denying you are one of them.

If in fact, Paul meant that the gospel had already been preached in all the world and to all creation as Preterists and apparently you yourself do contend, then the end should have come at that time as Christ specified. Not later in AD70. Again though, you are simply interpreting scripture according to preconceived Preterist ideas, not letting scripture interpret itself. Paul continued to preach the gospel and admonished all Christ’s followers to do the same, as does all NT scripture. Quite obviously then, everyone had not yet heard the gospel of Jesus Christ, as we well know now.

Perhaps the following Amplified bible version of Colossians 1:6&23 can help you understand, emphasis is mine. Though I suspect that you already do, and have simply chosen to believe as the Preterists contend.

Col 1:4 for we have heard of your faith in Christ Jesus [how you lean on Him with absolute confidence in His power, wisdom, and goodness], and of the [unselfish] [c]love which you have for all the saints (God’s people); 5 because of the [confident] hope [of experiencing that] which is reserved and waiting for you in heaven. You previously heard of this hope in the message of truth, the gospel [regarding salvation] 6 which has come to you. Indeed, just as in the whole world the gospel is constantly bearing fruit and spreading [by God’s power], just as it has been doing among you ever since the day you first heard of it and understood the grace of God in truth [becoming thoroughly and deeply acquainted with it]…………………………..
21 And although you were at one time estranged and alienated and hostile-minded [toward Him], participating in evil things, 22 yet Christ has now reconciled you [to God] in His [g]physical body through death, in order to present you before the Father holy and blameless and beyond reproach— 23 [and He will do this] if you continue in the faith, well-grounded and steadfast, and not shifting away from the [confident] hope [that is a result] of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which [gospel] I, Paul, was made a minister.

Paul did not mean that the gospel had already gone out to the entire world via Christ’s disciples in verse six, but rather that it was going out to the entire world. Verse 23 is a reference to another truth Paul preached upon in the first chapter of his epistle to the Romans.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

God’s creation itself, has always been a witness to His eternal power and Godhead, leaving all who have rejected the same without excuse. The gospel of Jesus Christ itself confirming and establishing these truths beyond question. Which gospel is to go out to the entire world until the end. God Himself will determine when this mission has been accomplished, by His personal appearance to address just exactly who has, and who has not accepted the gospel of Jesus Christ. At which time the events you and Preterists insist happened already in AD70 at Jerusalem, will happen on a global scale which every eye will truly see, and every individual will personally deal with.
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: Amo on Sat Jan 23, 2021 - 10:56:35
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#7)  What “falling away” transpired before AD 70?  The “apostasia” is not only a spiritual falling away (which actually took place especially in Asia, when all turned against Paul.  The “doctrine of Balaam” also corrupted many churches of that day with its lascivious doctrine.).

But the Greek term “apostasia” also encompasses the definition of a CIVIL REBELLION of a nation, which was launched officially with the revolt against Rome beginning in August of AD 66 (the attack on Roman troops at Masada and the cessation of sacrifices for the empire and the emperor in the temple, and the attack on the Roman troops garrisoned in the Fortress of Antonia).

This “mystery of lawlessness” - Zealot insurrection against Rome - was already at work, seething in the background in Paul’s day, and held in check by the high priesthood members loyal to Rome (the “who” that was restraining the Zealot outbreak - Ananaias ben Annas - as well as the “what” that was restraining the lawless Zealot outbreak - the high priesthood class).

The very first “Man of Lawlessness” competitor to battle his way to the top of the other Zealot leaders was Menahem, son or grandson of Judas the Galilean of Acts 5:37.   After murdering the high priest restrainer Ananias, (thus “taking him out of the way”), Menahem had a brief couple weeks with a meteoric rise of coming into power and actually getting into the temple, presenting himself as “king of the Jews”, dressed in King Herod’s stolen royal regalia.  This “brightness of his coming” into power was snuffed out almost immediately by Ananias’s son, Eleazar, taking vengeance on Menahem for murdering his high priest father.  It was NOT the brightness of CHRIST’S coming that killed Menahem, the Zealot Man of Lawlessness, because that “coming” was supposed to be after the works of Satan, using deception and  “lying wonders” (which would never be a sign of Christ’s coming).

So let me get this straight, you’re saying that the people who had already rejected the gospel of Jesus Christ and crucified the Son of God their promised Messiah, hadn’t fallen away from the truth yet in doing so? They only did so when they rebelled against the authority of the pagan Roman empire? The mystery of lawlessness was not in relation to the rejection of God’s Son and law, but rather the actions of those who had already done so in rejecting pagan Roman rulership? If this is not the hight of delusion, I do not know what is.

Paul was not preaching to the Jews who had already rejected Jesus Christ when warning of these future events. He was speaking to the Christian Thessalonians concerning the Christian church, not the Jews who had already rejected Jesus Christ, had already lost the kingdom of God, and whose house was already desolate.

Mt 21:33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country: 34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it. 35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another. 36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise. 37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. 38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. 39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him. 40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?  41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. 42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? 43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Lk 13:31 The same day there came certain of the Pharisees, saying unto him, Get thee out, and depart hence: for Herod will kill thee. 32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected. 33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem. 34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not! 35 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

The falling away and lawlessness Paul was referring to in his epistle to the Thessalonians, could not have been in relation to the Jews who had already rejected Jesus, or their temple. Their temple had already been left to them desolate, and the kingdom of God had already been taken away from them and given to others (the church) who alone could produce the fruits thereof.

Again, in your quest to defend Preterism, you are interpreting scripture according to the presumptions of the same. Conform your belief to that which scripture itself reveals, rather than conforming scripture to that which you simply have chosen or wish to believe. There could be no further falling away or lawlessness from the Jews who had already rejected and murdered the Messiah. Nor was Paul’s epistle to the Thessalonians directed toward or concerning them.
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: Amo on Sat Jan 23, 2021 - 11:01:45
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#8)  What was the “strong delusion” that was believed before AD 70?  The Zealots gained a brief strategic victory against Cestius Gallus in AD 66, and routed that Roman legion completely at Beth Horon, stealing all their weaponry, war materiel, and catapults. 

Such a sudden victory at the very beginning of the Zealot’s revolt in AD 66 gave them a false sense of superiority and a deluded faith that God was on their side against the Romans.  Those who were wavering on whether to join the Zealot cause were then encouraged to get on board in the cause of the rebellion after that first major victory over the unfortunate, inept Roman general.  God let the Zealot factions believe this lie, in order to spur them on to their own nation’s destruction.

Same problem with the above rubbish, as that of point #7. These Jews had already rejected the gospel of their Messiah, persecuted Him, spat upon Him, tortured and crucified Him, and were actively persecuting His followers. They were already a totally deluded people, who had rejected the leadership of the Lord of glory, in favor of Roman rule(Jn 19:15). Now you claim that their later rejection of pagan Roman authority over them, was the height of delusion. I’m sorry, but I think what you are preaching is among the heights of delusion, and some of the exact delusion the apostle Paul was referring to in his epistle to the Thessalonians. Which delusion was in reference to Christianity, not Judaism.

I do believe you are correct however, in that God allowed them victory early on, to seal their doom for having already rejected and crucified the one who was the reason for their entire existence. This was the height of their delusion which they could never surpass. Nor once they had done so, could they ever again be said to have fallen away. For they had already completely fallen in rejecting the Lord of glory.
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: Amo on Sat Jan 23, 2021 - 11:04:06
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#9)  “Kings of the earth” being high priests based on only “one obscure reference”?  I would hardly call Christ’s words about this “obscure”, but yes, there is more than this one reference identifying “kings of the earth” as high priests.  Try Hannah’s testimony in the LXX extolling God, who “gives strength to OUR KINGS”, (and Saul the first literal king of Israel isn’t even born yet).  Has to be the high priest kings that God strengthened.

Your reference to Hannah in the following verse, is no good example of what you claim. It is a prophecy concerning Christ the King, not the priests or kings of Israel. Though I am sure you already understand this, and are just grabbing whatever you can to support your unscriptural view that the kings of this earth in scripture is a reference to Israels priests. This of course is because your goal is to prove Preterism, or that of it which you have chosen to believe.

1Sa 2:10  The adversaries of the LORD shall be broken to pieces; out of heaven shall he thunder upon them: the LORD shall judge the ends of the earth; and he shall give strength unto his king, and exalt the horn of his anointed.

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You yourself, Amo, used the reference above that God formerly called Israel a “KINGdom of PRIESTS”.  This shows us that Israel’s royalty was in its Priesthood - not the usual sense of a monarchy ruling the nation.

The THRONE of the kingdom that the crowned Christ is currently sitting on in heaven is the mercy seat, with Jesus as the “prince of the kings of the earth” - the “king of kings” high priest upon that throne as our mediator, who supersedes all other high priest kings before Him.

He also calls His new covenant church kings and priests right in the opening of the first chapter of the book of Revelation. Does this not make the church of Christ the kings of this earth who commit fornication with Babylon the great, according to your misguided understanding and twisted logic? Yes it does. Moreover, since it is right in the opening of the book of Revelation itself, this interpretation must necessarily then take precedence over your’s. Should it not? If not why not?

Rev 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; 5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Christ is the prince of the kings of the earth, who are defined in the very next verse as the Christians whom He has made kings and priests unto God his Father. I can see why you would leave such a detail out, in defending Preterism. These kings are most obviously in contrast to the kings of this earth who commit fornication with Babylon the great. It is your chosen belief that requires they are one and the same, not the scriptures. Jesus Christ is not the prince of the kings of this earth who reject His word and authority in favor of Babylon the great’s. This confusion arises from the twisted logic of Preterism, not God’s word. Yes, it makes good sense that you did not quote the verses you were referring to in your above point being addressed. The verse itself causes major problems for the idea you are attempting to use as support for the same.

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High priests always wore a crown of gold encircling their forehead, with “Holiness to the Lord” engraved on it.  Crowns are for kings.  And the high priests were called kings often in the OT.  Try Melchizedek for one.  “KING of Salem...the PRIEST of the most high God” (Gen. 14:18).

Yes, the High priests of Israel did wear a crown which typified our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ who was and is both King and Priest. This King though, was not like the kings of this earth, nor was his place and or purpose as theirs either. You do err in suggesting otherwise.

Exo 28:36 And thou shalt make a plate of pure gold, and grave upon it, like the engravings of a signet, HOLINESS TO THE LORD. And thou shalt put it on a blue lace, that it may be upon the mitre; upon the forefront of the mitre it shall be. And it shall be upon Aaron's forehead, that Aaron may bear the iniquity of the holy things, which the children of Israel shall hallow in all their holy gifts; and it shall be always upon his forehead, that they may be accepted before the LORD.

This crown was was testifying that its wearer was bearing the iniquity of the children of Israel, that they might be accepted before the Lord. It typified the sacrifice of our King, Lord, and Savior Jesus Christ for the sins of the world, which alone makes any sinner such as ourselves acceptable before the Lord. As such it most obviously is separate from and infinitely above all other crowns. To suggest that it represents the crowns of the kings of this earth, who would commit fornication with Babylon the great is blasphemous, and silly as Preterism itself is therefore also in suggesting such.

Your position concerning Melchizedek is likewise twisted and faulty, as he himself was likewise a type of Christ and therefore separate from all other kings and priests of and or in this world.

Ps 110:1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. 2 The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies. 3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth. 4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek. 5 The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath. 6 He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries.

Heb 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? 12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. 13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar. 14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood. 15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest, 16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life. 17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. 18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. 19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God. 20 And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest: 21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:) 22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament. 23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death: 24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. 25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. 26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; 27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself. 28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

Again, your examples or proofs, are in fact the exact opposite of that which you are attempting to make them out to be. They are examples of a Kingship and Priesthood far above and beyond any of those of this earth, and most certainly completely separate from Babylon the great. To suggest that these kings or priests represent the kings of this earth who commit fornication with Babylon the great is nothing short of blasphemous.

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We ourselves as saints are called “KINGS and (kai - NAMELY) PRIESTS unto God and His Father...” in Rev. 1:6.

Yes we are, as I have already pointed out in proper biblical context. Which context you not only avoided by not referencing the very scriptures which state them, but twisted out of context and misapplied to the literal kings of this earth when it suited your argument. Which scripture you do now reference in proper context, only after being twisted again toward your own Preterist views contradictory to scripture itself. So be it. Deception is as deception does. 

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That’s the best I can do at short notice this evening Amo.  Though I don’t think any of this will register with you - you’re too firmly entrenched in your position to consider that you might be off track somewhere.   But I don’t consider you a “false prophet”  - just a mistaken one on a bunch of eschatology, but not on everything.  Much of your material above on Old Covenant Israel versus the New Covenant Israel of God is very sound. 

And I’m also not a fan of the mystery meat baloney either…

Then your best on short notice is quite obviously not very good. You are correct, I am firmly entrenched within the properly divided truths of God’s word. By His grace may I never be moved. Nevertheless, by His grace do I now ask for the same in revealing to me any and all deception I may have fallen prey to. Your arguments however, are not nearly scripturally sound enough to convince me at all of the truthfulness of your position. Whether or not you care for baloney, has little to do with whether or not your positions are full of it. It is a more polite term, expressing a far more crude one. I will not call you a false prophet, but rather quote the words of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ from scripture addressing them in closing this post.

Mt 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: Amo on Sat Jan 23, 2021 - 11:15:04
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Amo, you aren’t paying attention to the language about the seat of the Dragon which he gave to the Sea Beast.  That seat or throne was just given to the Sea Beast alone.  Satan the Dragon did NOT give his own seat in Pergamos to Mystery Babylon riding the Scarlet Beast in the wilderness - just to the Sea Beast that in John’s days had a 666-year-old biographical history that had existed ever since the first lion kingdom, led by Nebuchadnezzar.

 You may think the Sea Beast was not yet in existence in John’s days, but that Rev. 13 list of “leopard, bear, and lion” features for the Sea Beast shows us it had existed as early as Nebuchadnezzar’s “lion” empire.

And the Land Beast cannot possibly be the United States, because that Land Beast exercised the same power of the Sea Beast “before him” and “in the sight of” the Sea Beast.  That means the Sea Beast and the Land Beast were contemporaries at some point, with the Land Beast operating in the DIRECT VIEW and under the eyesight of the Sea Beast.

Still making a mess of Biblical prophecy I see. The scarlet beast is not a beast of the wilderness, it is the beast which arose out of the sea, that is peoples, nations, and tongues. There is no wilderness beast. No beast arose out of the wilderness, John was simply carried to the wilderness in the spirit, to have a vision concerning the great whore (Babylon) sitting upon the healed and or resurrected sea beast. The whore and beast sit upon many waters, which waters represent peoples, nations, and tongues (Rev 17:15), the opposite of wilderness. Mystery Babylon rides the sea beast as is obvious from the descriptions of the same, both having seven heads and ten horns.

Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. 2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. 3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Rev 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters: 2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. 3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

The dragon did not give the beast which rose out of the earth its seat and authority. These United States were established upon biblical and Protestant principles of freedom and liberty, around the same time the sea beast received its deadly wound in the late 1700’s. Babylon the Great (the Roman church) did not establish and or ride the beast from the earth. She establishes and rides the sea beast both before it receives a deadly wound, and after its wound is healed. Yes, the beasts from the sea and earth are contemporaries for a while. This is revealed in the fact that the earth beast makes an image to the sea beast in the sight of the same, during its transition from a government which speaks like a lamb, into a government which speaks like the dragon.

The Roman church had little to nothing to do with the establishment of the government of the United States, but has had very much to do with its continued transformation from a lamb like beast or government, to the ever increasingly dragon like beast or government it is being transformed into.

The people and leaders of the world at large were rejecting the leadership of the papacy during the formation of the government of the U.S. The Protestant Reformation had been under way for centuries already, which rejected the abusive nature of a united papacy and state. Then the French Revolution was a direct and violent rejection of Roman Catholic influenced and supported government, which reduced French citizens to abject poverty and peasantry, while ever enriching the wealth and power of the elites over them. Therefore did the people rise up against the same in one of the bloodiest and most violent revolutions in history. Therefore was the Vatican rifled, and the Pope forcibly removed from his throne and put into exile where he died. The sea beast received its deadly by the rejection of her leadership by these two movements seeking freedom from its abusive rule. At which time the sea beast lost its political power for a while, while Protestantism and Atheism or Secularism developed theirs. Nevertheless, the papacy has been striving to regain her political power again on a global scale ever since. Today she is on the verge of resurrecting and riding the sea beast once again through the cooperation she is receiving by the various governments, wealthy, and elites of the world.

The Papacy having fully supported one abusive king and queen after another in enriching and empowering themselves together, was being rejected by the world and the citizens of our newly forming nation at that time. Papists refer to the United States proper fear of Roman Catholic involvement in the founding and establishment of our nation, as bigotry. They ignore and disconnect such from the common knowledge and fear of the abusive governments which she fully supported in her past. Nevertheless, at the same time our nation was being established, the French were literally killing Catholic leaders, priests, bishops, and what have you, for their crimes against humanity. They ran Catholicism out of their country altogether, and rejected God as well, considering that the papacy might actually be His representatives.

While the U.S. demonstrated a healthy distrust of Catholic leadership  during its formation for the reasons stated above and many more, its established freedoms and liberties did not allow for it to prevent Catholics from coming here. Or seeking and obtaining political influence and control within it. To the contrary, through a combination of natural desire to improve one’s situation, and Catholic planned and facilitated immigration, countless millions of Catholics have entered this country during several mass migrations of the same from Europe and elsewhere. While Catholic leadership disagreed with and condemned some of the principles of our founding, they had no problem allowing and or even advising their adherents to come here and partake of the prosperity which our founding principles allowed for.

The Roman church is all about the redistribution of wealth, especially to her and her adherents. Countless millions of which have and do continue to benefit from within this nation and without, while our dwindling prosperity lasts under her ever growing political influence and manipulation. Today, our nation and government in particular is filled with Catholics and therefore ever increasing papal influence upon the same. The Pope was invited to address our Congress in session just a few years ago. Six to seven out of nine Supreme Court Justices are Catholic. Thirty some odd percent of Congress is Catholic. The last eight or nine speakers of the house have been Catholic. If or when Biden takes office, he will be the second Catholic President of our nation. Who by the way, intends to establish much along the lines of Roman Catholic social justice and papal politics within our nation (https://spectator.org/pope-francis-biden-build-back-better/).

The sea beasts wound is almost completely healed. The government of the United States is and has been being transformed from one speaking as a lamb into one speaking as a dragon under the ever increasing influence and supervision, or sight if you will, of the papacy and her minions. Yes, the U.S. is definitely being transformed in the sight of sea beast as her minions are increasingly directing the reins of our government. This is the present and past history and prophetic fulfillment your Jesuit inspired interpretation of biblical prophesy will not allow for. Which is its exact purpose. That is, to bypass all history and true interpretation of the prophecies of the book of Revelation, and replace it with deception unto ruin and destruction. Both in the present by supporting the resurrection of the sea beast and her abusive power, and in the future execution of judgment for peddling deception.

Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

As is made obvious from the above warning, none should take the interpretation of the book of Revelation lightly. Those found guilty of adding or taking away from the meaning of its words, are doomed. May God grant us wisdom and humility to see and admit if we have been wrong.

Rev 12:3  And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

In case you hadn’t noticed or made a connection concerning it, chapter 12 introduces us to the Dragon identified as the devil within the same chapter, which has seven heads just like the sea beast. Chapter 12 describes the war between Christ and Satan in heaven and on earth. Even addressing Satans attempts to destroy Christ at birth and defeat His purpose in the salvation of souls, but Christ triumphed and was brought up to heaven and the throne of God. The chapter then warns the church that the devil knowing his time is short, will go after those who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. This is followed in chapter thirteen by prophetic utterance concerning Satans new covenant beasts he manipulates against Christ’s church. The first beast of this new covenant era is immediately tied to the dragon having seven heads as the dragon himself does, and the previous beasts of old covenant biblical prophecy and beasts. This revealing a continuity of prophetic symbolism regarding biblical beasts of prophecy from the old to new covenant. Seven being the number of completeness, the seven heads of the dragon represent the seven biblical beasts of prophecy through which the devil carries on his rebellion against God on this earth in his war with God’s people.

Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. 13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. 14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. 15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. 16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

These prophecies are concerning Christ’s new testament church and kingdom, and its conflict with the dragons earthly kingdoms in rebellion against God. Revelation chapter 17 brings these seven beast, kings, heads, and mountains together. Revealing that they are one and the same. They are the seven kingdoms or beasts of biblical prophecy through which the dragon has carried on his rebellion against God on this earth in relation to God’s people dwelling upon the same.
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: Amo on Sun Jan 24, 2021 - 15:54:17
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I know I keep harping on this, but you also have never addressed the “AT HAND” terms John used to describe all of the unsealed future prophecies found from the very beginning to the very end of Revelation.  This term is not just wasted ink on John’s part in Rev. 1:3 and 22:10.  It actually MEANS something.   God already told us in Ezekiel 12:21-28 when “AT HAND” prophecies are to be fulfilled, and they are NOT to be “prolonged” into “times that are far off”.  This would eliminate any application of Revelation’s unsealed prophecies to the RCC, for it certainly is a “time far off” compared to when John was writing.

I have already addressed this issue. The term at hand is not as limiting as you have supposed, as I supplied scriptural evidence of the same to you already. Nor does this effect the prophecies of the book of Revelation in either case. The events described in Revelation were and are at hand. They had already begun to unfold in Paul’s day as I have shown you, and they will continue to unfold unto the end. They entail the rise and fall of various kingdoms and or nations, which of course entails quite a bit of time. God’s prophecies and word have far more depth of time and perspective than you allow for. Stretching far beyond any limits fallen humanity desires to place upon it.
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: Amo on Sun Jan 24, 2021 - 15:57:14
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The “Wicked One” and his angels are no longer in existence today to play any part in governments or religious institutions since he was “crushed” under the feet of the saints, as Paul promised was “shortly” to take place in Romans 16:20.  What IS a threat today is the “children of the devil”, as Christ labeled them, besides our own tendency to engage in sinful activities and thoughts.

Paul promised no such thing according to Preterist doctrine which no scripture declares anywhere, but to the contrary only identifies as deception. He was repeating one of the first prophecies and promises given to God’s people immediately after the fall, the final fulfillment of which was more fully established in Christ, and much closer in Paul’s day than when it was first given. Which fulfillment is much closer still today.

Gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: 15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Rom 16:20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

There has always and will continue to be enmity between God’s children and Satans children in this world until the end. The seed of Eve is Christ and His own, and the seed of the serpent are Satan’s and his own.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

The carnal mind controlled through the flesh is enmity with God. Satan and his angels are alive and ever seeking to subjugate humanity to the flesh over and above the Spirit. You serve Satan well in denying his continued existence. I warn all to reject this false teaching of yours and heed the following teachings of scripture.

Eph 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. 11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. 13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. 14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; 15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; 16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: 18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

1 Pe 5:6 Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time: 7 Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you. 8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: 9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world. 10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you. 11To him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. 13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. 14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. 15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. 16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

These messages of warning are for all Christ’s followers until the end. Do not believe the lies of Preterism. The above warnings are to the countless millions if not billions of Christ’s followers until He personally returns unto eternal salvation, not just the relatively few in Jerusalem along with Preterists supposed resurrected saints, between 33 and 70AD. This is false prophecy which claims Christ has already returned in secret as it were, or in only a certain place.

Mt 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

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It makes no difference if you think this large an amount of future prophecy could not possibly be fulfilled in a ten year span before AD 70’s end.  If GOD says they were all “AT HAND” in John’s days, then YOU are the one who must adjust to HIS terms, not He to your assumptions.

That is a big fat negative. We have already dispelled this false notion of what you declare at hand must mean at all times. You are simply wrong as already proved from scripture. Nevertheless, as already stated also, these prophecies were at hand and already beginning to unfold even before the book of Revelation was completed. As Paul himself testified. There has not been a moment of human history at which time  God’s word and or biblical prophecy has not been being fulfilled. Nor will there ever be a moment in which it is not. You simply do not comprehend or understand the depth and scope of the Infinite One’s words. They are eternal as He is, with eternal purpose, meaning. fulfillment, and function. Neither God or any of His followers are limited to your extremely short sighted interpretations of His prophecies, or depth of His word.
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: Amo on Sun Jan 24, 2021 - 16:16:01
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One of the main problems you have, Amo, is trying to make the term “the EARTH” (tes ges) refer to the entire WORLD at large in Revelation (which would be “oikoumenen” instead.  “Tes ges” is usually specific to the land of Israel in scripture.  Such as Hebrews 8:4, for just one example.  Speaking of the ascended Christ, it says “For if He were ON EARTH” (ges - the land of Israel), “He should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law...”

Those “tribes of the EARTH” (tes ges) seeing Christ’s return were specifically some of ethnic Israel’s 12 tribes seeing that return.  The mournful “weeping and gnashing of teeth” of these tribes was specifically from those who claimed that “We have EATEN AND DRUNK IN THY PRESENCE, and THOU HAST TAUGHT IN OUR STREETS.” (Luke 13:25-29).  There is only one specific generation that could legitimately claim a personal encounter with the incarnate Christ eating and drinking with them face to face and teaching in their streets, and that was the first century generation of Israelites.

It was THESE Israelite tribes of the land of Israel (tes ges) that would be the “every eye”  of those tribes who pierced Him that would witness His physical return.  And that return was done in the same glorified body in which Christ ascended from the Mount of Olives.  And to the very same mountain location also,  according to Zechariah 14:4-5. 

If you’re wanting me to give a translation that makes the “every eye” term limited to only those who pierced Him, you have already given some of them yourself above when they translate “Kai” as “EVEN they which pierced Him”.  The word “Even” means “namely” in this text.  Vines Greek NT dictionary lists the various uses of this word “Kai”, and acknowledges that it is possible that it can be used in an “epexegetic or explanatory” manner when followed by a noun in apposition.  While not the more common occurrence, yet there are other examples in scripture besides Rev. 1:7 where “Kai” cannot be used as a normal conjunction meaning “in addition to”.  Do you need some of these other scripture examples that show “Kai” being used in an explanatory sense instead of meaning “also”?

Even the KJV INSERTS  the word “also” in italics, which leads you to misunderstand that this witness of Christ’s return extended also to the entire world “...and every eye shall see him, and (kai) they” (also) “which pierced him...”

If you can’t tell by now, I am VERY, VERY serious about the fine print in scripture.  So much of my understanding from my former training I have had to trash, simply because I skipped over the smaller details and gave no regard to the original languages, the time markers, and the particular audience relevance of whom the books were written to in the first place.  Makes all the difference in the world.

It seems you are not in fact concerned with detail at all, accepting such detail may be applied to the preconceived ideas of the interpretation of scripture and prophecy you have chosen. You reject completely one of the basic truths of old covenant prophecy foretold, and undeniable new covenant principles fully established in scripture. That is the transition of application of God’s promises, prophecies, gospel, and salvation from the literal and local nation of Israel and her neighbors and enemies, to the universal application of all Christ’s followers the world over as spiritual Israel of the new covenant, and all the rest of the world as spiritual Babylon’s adherents to be called out of the same. Those responding correctly becoming Christ’s own, and those rejecting becoming the enemies of God and His followers in this new covenant global era.

You are the one restricting God’s word and prophecies to the very narrow, limited, and closed minded vision of the flesh. Nevertheless, the Spirit has made the truth known, plain and simple within God’s word.

Gen 18:18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? 19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

Gen 22:15 And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, 16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son: 17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; 18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Gen 26:3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father; 4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; 5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

Mt 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Mt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Lk 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 And ye are witnesses of these things.


Get a grip man. Stop stifling and restricting the Holy Spirit of God by confining the interpretation of His word and prophecies to your own narrow limited and chosen box of reality. The gospel of Jesus Christ represented and preserved during the old covenant through literal Israel and the types and symbols employed by instruction of God representing and revealing the same, were alway meant to be applied globally and universally in this world in and through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. As testified in both the old and new testaments.

The gospel of Jesus Christ itself presenting a moment of decision to every person ever hearing it. With real live personal, communal, national, and global effect. Which gospel the enemy of all souls has always battled the effects of in this world, and continues to do so now and to the end, with real live personal, communal, national, and global effect. As scripture itself testifies, which you and yours are denying in your war against these plain testimonies of scripture. Biblical prophecy pertaining to the whole world are in fact speaking of the whole world, as even old testament prophecies  make abundantly clear. Observe the following old testament prophecy concerning Babylon, and the wine which the Lord will make all nations who reject Him drink from. Understand the most obvious dual nature of this prophecy reaching to the end and effecting all nations up to Christ’s return. 

Jer 25:12 And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans, and will make it perpetual desolations. 13 And I will bring upon that land all my words which I have pronounced against it, even all that is written in this book, which Jeremiah hath prophesied against all the nations. 14 For many nations and great kings shall serve themselves of them also: and I will recompense them according to their deeds, and according to the works of their own hands. 15 For thus saith the LORD God of Israel unto me; Take the wine cup of this fury at my hand, and cause all the nations, to whom I send thee, to drink it. 16 And they shall drink, and be moved, and be mad, because of the sword that I will send among them. 17 Then took I the cup at the LORD'S hand, and made all the nations to drink, unto whom the LORD had sent me: 18 To wit, Jerusalem, and the cities of Judah, and the kings thereof, and the princes thereof, to make them a desolation, an astonishment, an hissing, and a curse; as it is this day; 19 Pharaoh king of Egypt, and his servants, and his princes, and all his people; 20 And all the mingled people, and all the kings of the land of Uz, and all the kings of the land of the Philistines, and Ashkelon, and Azzah, and Ekron, and the remnant of Ashdod, 21 Edom, and Moab, and the children of Ammon, 22 And all the kings of Tyrus, and all the kings of Zidon, and the kings of the isles which are beyond the sea, 23 Dedan, and Tema, and Buz, and all that are in the utmost corners, 24 And all the kings of Arabia, and all the kings of the mingled people that dwell in the desert, 25 And all the kings of Zimri, and all the kings of Elam, and all the kings of the Medes, 26 And all the kings of the north, far and near, one with another, and all the kingdoms of the world, which are upon the face of the earth: and the king of Sheshach shall drink after them. 27 Therefore thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Drink ye, and be drunken, and spue, and fall, and rise no more, because of the sword which I will send among you. 28 And it shall be, if they refuse to take the cup at thine hand to drink, then shalt thou say unto them, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Ye shall certainly drink. 29 For, lo, I begin to bring evil on the city which is called by my name, and should ye be utterly unpunished? Ye shall not be unpunished: for I will call for a sword upon all the inhabitants of the earth, saith the LORD of hosts. 30 Therefore prophesy thou against them all these words, and say unto them, The LORD shall roar from on high, and utter his voice from his holy habitation; he shall mightily roar upon his habitation; he shall give a shout, as they that tread the grapes, against all the inhabitants of the earth. 31 A noise shall come even to the ends of the earth; for the LORD hath a controversy with the nations, he will plead with all flesh; he will give them that are wicked to the sword, saith the LORD. 32 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Behold, evil shall go forth from nation to nation, and a great whirlwind shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth. 33 And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground. 34 Howl, ye shepherds, and cry; and wallow yourselves in the ashes, ye principal of the flock: for the days of your slaughter and of your dispersions are accomplished; and ye shall fall like a pleasant vessel. 35 And the shepherds shall have no way to flee, nor the principal of the flock to escape. 36 A voice of the cry of the shepherds, and an howling of the principal of the flock, shall be heard: for the LORD hath spoiled their pasture. 37 And the peaceable habitations are cut down because of the fierce anger of the LORD.

Again, get a grip man. Even the old testament dual prophecy concerning Babylon and her wine is unquestionably global in nature involving all of the nations of this earth. Will you now still deny this and insist that these prophecies pertain only to the kings and priests of Israel, when the above one specifically names so many other nations and their kings and then all nations? If so, you have no one to blame but yourself concerning the acceptance of the Preterist deception. Are you not therefore choosing the wine and deceptions of Babylon the great which the Lord Himself has chosen? Yes you are.

Isa 66:1 Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest? 2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word. 3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations. 4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not. 5 Hear the word of the LORD, ye that tremble at his word; Your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, Let the LORD be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed. 6 A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the LORD that rendereth recompence to his enemies.

All who choose their own ways and abominations above God’s word and instruction are deceived. God Himself will choose their delusions and bring their own fears upon them. Why do you drink the wine from the cup of Babylon? Why do you offer it to others in your false Preterist teachings. Repent, come out of Babylon, and warn others of their need to do the same.

Rev 18:1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. 2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. 3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. 4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. 5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Sun Jan 24, 2021 - 17:33:48
Amo, let me repeat this.  You are creating a lot of straw men out of what I have written and are pouring out wasted effort in fighting what you perceive as my position.   

You keep saying I deny certain things, when I haven’t done so in many cases.  It’s rather difficult to wade through the mounds of verses and commentary you are heaping up to get to your main point.  Are you trying to bury the opposition with so much verbiage that it’s hopeless to respond?  Many of the texts you are typing out I have no difference of opinion from you.  Yet you are throwing them out there as if to challenge me with them.

I’m a simple person.  High school diploma only from all Christian schools from kindergarten up.  God reveals His truths to babes and hides them from the wise and prudent.  This is encouraging in my case.  I would have been one of the “common people” who gladly heard Christ.

I know that scripture prophecy has layers of meaning, with certain lessons within them that are pertinent to every generation - not rejecting this.  But neither can I deny the initial prophetic fulfillment as applicable to the ones first receiving it.  This is what it seems you are doing.  It seems that you are flushing ALL the particular time markers that come with those prophecies.  Words like “NOW hath he promised...”.  “SHORTLY” something was going to take place.  Something was “ABOUT TO” occur.   The devil knowing he had only a “SHORT TIME” back then to deceive the nations.  Etc..  Simple people like myself to whom these types of words were written were not deluded to believe those NEAR events would SOON be transpiring in their own experience.  Which would make them already fulfilled.

It takes a brainiac to extend these very simple time qualifiers into something that will happen on a continual basis throughout all of history into the distant future.  This entirely disenfranchises the original audience receiving those prophecies with specific time markers in them.  Are you trying to eliminate those people from their own prophecies just so you can feel more included?  This appears selfish, though I know you don’t mean to be.
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: Amo on Fri Jan 29, 2021 - 11:03:34
Amo, let me repeat this.  You are creating a lot of straw men out of what I have written and are pouring out wasted effort in fighting what you perceive as my position.   

You keep saying I deny certain things, when I haven’t done so in many cases.  It’s rather difficult to wade through the mounds of verses and commentary you are heaping up to get to your main point.  Are you trying to bury the opposition with so much verbiage that it’s hopeless to respond?  Many of the texts you are typing out I have no difference of opinion from you.  Yet you are throwing them out there as if to challenge me with them.

I’m a simple person.  High school diploma only from all Christian schools from kindergarten up.  God reveals His truths to babes and hides them from the wise and prudent.  This is encouraging in my case.  I would have been one of the “common people” who gladly heard Christ.

I know that scripture prophecy has layers of meaning, with certain lessons within them that are pertinent to every generation - not rejecting this.  But neither can I deny the initial prophetic fulfillment as applicable to the ones first receiving it.  This is what it seems you are doing.  It seems that you are flushing ALL the particular time markers that come with those prophecies.  Words like “NOW hath he promised...”.  “SHORTLY” something was going to take place.  Something was “ABOUT TO” occur.   The devil knowing he had only a “SHORT TIME” back then to deceive the nations.  Etc..  Simple people like myself to whom these types of words were written were not deluded to believe those NEAR events would SOON be transpiring in their own experience.  Which would make them already fulfilled.

It takes a brainiac to extend these very simple time qualifiers into something that will happen on a continual basis throughout all of history into the distant future.  This entirely disenfranchises the original audience receiving those prophecies with specific time markers in them.  Are you trying to eliminate those people from their own prophecies just so you can feel more included?  This appears selfish, though I know you don’t mean to be.

I don't even have a high school diploma my friend. Someone stole all the school books out of my locker which amounted to hundreds of dollars which we did not have to pay, and the school would not give me my diploma without paying for them. So I never got one, nor have I ever really cared. I don't know how I graduated anyway. I started smoking cigarettes and drinking when I was eight, smoking dope when I was nine, and spent most of my childhood educated years from that time forward under the influence of whatever drugs were available at the time. I put the very least effort possible into school, yet somehow actually graduated, go figure. My conversion took place over several years after being personally introduced to God through a children's book about him my Mom brought home from the dentist office where she worked, and was publicly confessed by baptism many years later while I was in the military with a drug free and cleared up mind. My true education began only after I came to know and fear God. As all true education does.

Pro 1:1 The proverbs of Solomon the son of David, king of Israel; 2 To know wisdom and instruction; to perceive the words of understanding; 3 To receive the instruction of wisdom, justice, and judgment, and equity; 4 To give subtilty to the simple, to the young man knowledge and discretion. 5 A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels: 6 To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings. 7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Psa 111:1 Praise ye the LORD. I will praise the LORD with my whole heart, in the assembly of the upright, and in the congregation. 2 The works of the LORD are great, sought out of all them that have pleasure therein. 3 His work is honourable and glorious: and his righteousness endureth for ever. 4 He hath made his wonderful works to be remembered: the LORD is gracious and full of compassion. 5 He hath given meat unto them that fear him: he will ever be mindful of his covenant. He hath shewed his people the power of his works, that he may give them the heritage of the heathen. 7 The works of his hands are verity and judgment; all his commandments are sure. 8 They stand fast for ever and ever, and are done in truth and uprightness. 9 He sent redemption unto his people: he hath commanded his covenant for ever: holy and reverend is his name. 10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.

Everything I have written has been in response to exact points of that which you have posted. You keep saying I don't know what you believe, are you not posting what you believe? I am addressing what you have posted, which I assume is what you believe. Is it not?

The long term nature of biblical prophecy, is revealed all throughout scripture. Your claim that it had to have immediate interpretation and effect of fulfillment simply is not biblical. The first prophecy concerning Christ is found in Genesis immediately after the fall, followed by many other prophecies throughout the old testament ranging from hundreds to thousands of years concerning their fulfillment. All the details of which have not been fulfilled yet. You are simply wrong in declaring biblical prophecy demands rapid fulfillment and interpretation, especially when dual interpretation is applied, which it most certainly is meant to be at times.

Even your shared Preterist interpretations, were not fully developed until many centuries after the events you are claiming fulfill them. Nor do I believe there is any written record from those actually going through the events Preterists claim were the fulfillment of the prophecies of the book of Revelation, by them confirming such. It was all made up long after the events transpired, and no one at the time believed they were going through the fulfillment of what Preterists now claim. The Historicist interpretation of biblical prophecy is however, many times backed up by the personal testimony of Christians actually going through the events they believed were the fulfillment of said prophecies. Those of the past who were literally persecuted, imprisoned, tortured, burned at the stake, and killed enmass by Catholic priests, kings, queens, and royalty, did correctly identify these perpetrators as Babylon the Great and the system of anti-christ. Eventually writing volumes addressing her incessant abuses and false soul damning doctrines and ceremonies. Why do you reject their personal testimony and those who back the same up today as those prophecies continue in significance, for interpretations denying all of the same, which no one believed at the very time of their supposed fulfillment? Or do you reject the same? It seems so, when you suggest these historical interpretations are wrong, and then present Preterist interpretations as right.

If there is proof that Christians beleived as Preterists now preach, before, shortly after, and for the first few centuries after 70AD, please do present such. Then perhaps we can go from there. I can and will easily present such from the historicist view of prophecy. Thank you.

Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: Amo on Sat Jan 30, 2021 - 09:43:41
3Res. -
Quote
Amo, you aren’t paying attention to the language about the seat of the Dragon which he gave to the Sea Beast.  That seat or throne was just given to the Sea Beast alone.  Satan the Dragon did NOT give his own seat in Pergamos to Mystery Babylon riding the Scarlet Beast in the wilderness - just to the Sea Beast that in John’s days had a 666-year-old biographical history that had existed ever since the first lion kingdom, led by Nebuchadnezzar.

 You may think the Sea Beast was not yet in existence in John’s days, but that Rev. 13 list of “leopard, bear, and lion” features for the Sea Beast shows us it had existed as early as Nebuchadnezzar’s “lion” empire.


It is not the sea beast that existed in Nebuchadnezzar's empire, but the dragon with seven heads, who is the devil. 1. The lion, 2. the bear, 3. the leopard, 4. the diverse beast, 5. the sea beast, 6. the earth beast, 7. and finely the resurrected sea beast, are the seven heads of the dragon. They are Satan's counterfeit kingdoms in rebellion against God's kingdom in relation to His people on this earth. The seventh is also an eighth and one of the seven because the Vatican was made a literal nation state of this world during her illicit relations with Fascism by the earthly power of Mussolini. While she maintained illicit relationships with Fascists Hitler and Francisco Franco as well.

The Roman Catholic Church was conceived amidst the competition of various apostate "Christian" factions vying for position along side of and supported by the Roman state. She was the victor in these struggles to enter into spiritually adulterous relations with the kings of this earth. Thus she succeeded in joining herself to the power of the first supposed "Christian" emperor, who established her as the official state church. Her power has, does, and will always continue to come from her illicit relations with the powers that be of this world. They do not come from Christ or scripture, but rather from below. As they do to this day. She now has illicit relations with more of the kings of this earth than at any time before in her history, including major control and influence in these United States. She is right in the middle of the establishment of the global government the scriptures predict immediately before our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ's return.

The dragon, in the powers that be of this earth from below, did give his power and seat to Babylon the Great, the Roman church. As her own even proudly testify of in acquiring the title of Pontifex Maximus from earthly authorities.

http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/apologetics/a104.htm

Quoted article below from link above.

Quote
The Title Pontifex Maximus

This explains the origin of the title "Pontifex Maximus" for the Papacy, written by Mark Bonocore

Title "Pontifex Maximus" or "Supreme Pontiff"

<< One of the most amazing aspects about the ascendancy of the papacy is that the church of Rome promotes the pope as the "Pontifex Maximus" or, Supreme Pontiff. The title Pontifex Maximus is mentioned numerous times by the early church fathers (particularly by Tertullian), but it was not applied to a Christian bishop. The early church fathers say that the Pontifex Maximus was the "King of Heathendom", the evil high priest of the pagan mystery religion of Rome. It is certainly not likely that Christ appointed Peter "Pontifex Maximus" of Rome. >>

Of course Christ didn't appoint Peter to be the Pontifex Maximus. And of course the early Church Fathers spoke of the Pontifex Maximus in such derogatory, paganistic ways. Because when the early Fathers were writing, the Pontifex Maximus was the head of the Roman pagan religion, and the Roman Empire itself was pagan. As any student of Roman history knows, the Pontifex Maximus was an imperial office, usually held by the Emperor himself, which made one the "chief priest" of the Roman "state cult."

Now as I said, in the days of the early Fathers, this "state cult" was paganism and Emperor worship. Yet, when Constantine the Great became the first Christian Roman Emperor, the "state cult" changed to Christianity. Now, oddly enough, the first Christian emperors all still retained the title of Pontifex Maximus (a traditional title for Emperors) which, under imperial law (though not Church law), actually made them the "Head of the Church" ! It was by this authority, for example, that Constantine called the Council of Nicaea (325 AD) to settle the Arian controversy.

Indeed, it was not until the Empire split in two, with the Western Empire going to the pious, youthful Emperor Gratian (c. 360 AD) that the Pope was given the title Pontifex Maximus. Indeed, feeling that it was not right for he himself to carry that title (since he was, after all, not a Christian priest) the pious young Emperor bestowed it upon Pope Damasus I, who became the first Pope in history to hold the title "Pontifex Maximus."

Yet, this was only a legal title; and the Popes didn't pay much attention to it at the time, but continued to maintain that their authority came from the Apostle Peter and Peter alone. It was not until the Popes began to conflict with several heretical Eastern Emperors (who, by the way, never relinquished the title "Pontifex Maximus" in the Eastern Empire) that the Popes began asserting their legal authority under imperial law.

This is why the Pope is referred to as the "Pontifex Maximus" or "Supreme Pontiff" today, and not because of any carry-over from paganism. Just as there were pagan Emperors and Christian Emperors, just as there are pagan kings and Christian kings, so there are pagan Pontiffs and Christian Pontiffs. Our critic's anti-Catholic prejudice prevents him from appreciating this.

As for Tertullian's reference to Pontifex Maximus (cited by our critic above), this is most interesting indeed since, despite our critic's spin on things, it is a powerful proof for the authority of the early Roman Papacy. As already described by both the author and myself, Tertullian was (at the time) a Montanist heretic who clashed with Pope Callistus I (c. 220 AD) over Callistus' relaxation of the Church's penitential discipline, allowing repentant adulterers and fornicators back into the Church, even if they were "repeat offenders."

Now, as our critic pointed out, Callistus cited his Petrine authority to "bind and loosen" to validate his decree. In response, the heretical Tertullian has this to say:

"In opposition to this [modesty], could I not have acted the dissembler? I hear that there has even been an edict sent forth, and a peremptory one too. The 'Pontifex Maximus,' that is the 'bishop of bishops,' issues an edict: 'I remit, to such as have discharged [the requirements of] repentance, the sins both of adultery and of fornication.' O edict, on which cannot be inscribed, 'Good deed!' ...Far, far from Christ's betrothed be such a proclamation!" (On Modesty 1, Ante-Nicene Fathers IV:74)

Now Tertullian is obviously being sarcastic in calling Pope Callistus by such names as "bishop of bishops" and "Pontifex Maximus" -- both of these titles, as I said, being imperial pagan ones at this time (c. 220 AD). However, the mere fact that Tertullian (a heretic) is referring to the Pope this way, shows that Pope Callistus wielded authority outside of his own bishopric and throughout the universal Church.

Indeed, Tertullian continues to criticize Pope Callistus, saying:

"I now inquire into your opinions, to see whence you usurp the right for the Church. Do you presume, because the Lord said to Peter, 'On this rock I will build my Church ...[Matt 16-19]' that the power of binding and loosing has thereby been handed over to you, that is, to every church akin to that of Peter? What kind of man are you, subverting and changing what was the manifest intent of the Lord when He conferred this personally on Peter? 'On you,' He says, 'I will build my Church; and I give to you the keys'...." (Tertullian, On Modesty 21:9-10)

So, what does this tell us? While Tertullian (a Montanist heretic, who at this time did not recognize Apostolic succession or any Church authority) criticizes it, the fact is clear that here in 220 AD, Pope Callistus is claiming authority based on his direct succession from St. Peter and using that authority to change a Church discipline that remained changed from then on. This fact cannot be avoided. In other words, the view of the heretic Tertullian was not the view of the rest of the universal Church.


She received this title of ancient paganism from the authorities or powers that be of this earth. She is of this earth. Her power is and always has been the power of the various states of this world, not the Holy Spirit of God.

https://amazingdiscoveries.org/S-deception_Pontifex_Maximus_Babylon

Quoted article below from link above.

Quote
The papal title Pontifex Maximus can be traced back in different forms to the ancient Chaldean times. When Medo-Persia conquered Babylon, the Babylonian religion was maintained, but after a revolt of the priesthood, the priests of Babylon were driven out of Medo-Persia, and established themselves at Pergamum, taking with them their titles and vestures.

The last pontiff king of Pergamum was Attalus III, who bequeathed his title to the emperor of Rome in 133 BC. In the fourth century AD, Christian emperor Gratian refused the title, and in the year 431 AD, the title was taken over by Damascus, bishop of Rome. Read about how these events fit into Biblical prophecy

The present-day college of cardinals with the Pope at the head is identical to the college of pontiffs with the Pontifex Maximus at the head.

The keys that the Pope wears around his neck are not the keys of Peter. Rather, they date back from Babylonian times, when it was supposed that this representative of God had the power to unlock heaven or hell.

A statement about the Pope’s position is found in William Barry's The Papal Monarchy:

The Pax Romana (Roman peace) has ceased; it is a universal confusion. But wherever a Bishop holds his court, religion protects all that is left of the ancient order. A new Rome ascends slowly above the horizon...

The Emperor is no more...but the Pontifex Maximus abides; he is now the Vicar of Christ, offering the old civilisation to the tribes of the North. He converts them to his creed, and they serve him as Father and Judge supreme (emphases added).i


The power of the sea beast is being reestablished on a global scale as we discuss these prophecies. The federal government of these United States is filled with her adherents who have a duty to establish her social doctrines and teachings through legislation in their perspective countries or fields. All three branches of our government created to maintain a balance of power, are now dominated by her adherents including now only the second Catholic President. Deny all you wish, it is happening right in front of your own, and everyone else's face. So be it.

Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Sat Jan 30, 2021 - 11:14:28
Hey Amo...not much time, since I have work orders on the table needing attention...

Did you ever consider that God has DELIBERATELY allowed this prevalence of Catholic influence as a JUDGMENT on the world at large?  A world that has elevated child sacrifice of the unborn to a sacred right? 

Think about it.  Catholicism has predominantly been openly opposed to abortion at any stage.  This is actually an echo of God’s mind on the matter.  Since the nations of this world by supporting abortion have rejected this original commandment in the Garden of Eden to “be fruitful and multiply”, why would God not allow the influence of the Catholic Church to prevail, if only to discourage the murder of the unborn?

Ummm, and it was NOT the 666-year old Rev. 13 Sea Beast that was to be resurrected; it was the Rev. 17 Scarlet Beast found in the wilderness instead that had a fluctuating existence of “WAS”, then “IS NOT”, “IS”, and “ABOUT TO ARISE”.  This Scarlet Beast is the one that John said was about to go into destruction in HIS days, after it would briefly arise to existence in John’s near future.  You are confusing the 3 Beasts mentioned in Revelation.  They all have differing features and biographies distinct from each other.  This is a common mistake made, so you are by no means alone in your viewpoint.
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: Rella on Sat Jan 30, 2021 - 12:03:20
Hey Amo...not much time, since I have work orders on the table needing attention...

Did you ever consider that God has DELIBERATELY allowed this prevalence of Catholic influence as a JUDGMENT on the world at large?  A world that has elevated child sacrifice of the unborn to a sacred right? 

Think about it.  Catholicism has predominantly been openly opposed to abortion at any stage.  This is actually an echo of God’s mind on the matter.  Since the nations of this world by supporting abortion have rejected this original commandment in the Garden of Eden to “be fruitful and multiply”, why would God not allow the influence of the Catholic Church to prevail, if only to discourage the murder of the unborn?



I have been sitting this one out until this.

Ephesians 1:18 springs to mind.  Your eyes are not opened. Your reasoning is flawed.

You have a Catholic president, who has met with the Pope. This president has just signed an order for the US to pay for abortions abroad and in non citizens.

This is one reason God is staying out of this "end times" mix.

Now, carry on boys.

Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: Amo on Sat Jan 30, 2021 - 14:40:12
Hey Amo...not much time, since I have work orders on the table needing attention...

Did you ever consider that God has DELIBERATELY allowed this prevalence of Catholic influence as a JUDGMENT on the world at large?  A world that has elevated child sacrifice of the unborn to a sacred right? 

Think about it.  Catholicism has predominantly been openly opposed to abortion at any stage.  This is actually an echo of God’s mind on the matter.  Since the nations of this world by supporting abortion have rejected this original commandment in the Garden of Eden to “be fruitful and multiply”, why would God not allow the influence of the Catholic Church to prevail, if only to discourage the murder of the unborn?

Ummm, and it was NOT the 666-year old Rev. 13 Sea Beast that was to be resurrected; it was the Rev. 17 Scarlet Beast found in the wilderness instead that had a fluctuating existence of “WAS”, then “IS NOT”, “IS”, and “ABOUT TO ARISE”.  This Scarlet Beast is the one that John said was about to go into destruction in HIS days, after it would briefly arise to existence in John’s near future.  You are confusing the 3 Beasts mentioned in Revelation.  They all have differing features and biographies distinct from each other.  This is a common mistake made, so you are by no means alone in your viewpoint.

There is no question but that the Roman Catholic church, Babylon the Great, was chosen by God Himself to bring about the end. I have already shared the scripture with you that declares that God Himself has chosen the delusions those who reject Him will believe. This is the institution and deceptions God has allowed the dragon to use. Try as any might, no one can escape God's complete control of all, even when allowing complete freedom to all. No one can surprise God, or do anything He cannot or has not already anticipated.

Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, 11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24  Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

God will once again be all in all, without any rebellion or contention anywhere ever again concerning His proven rightful authority and place as first in all things. Which issue He resolves without forcing anyone to accept His rightful authority over all. Though He will surely punish evil among those who have not accepted the salvation He has offered from the same.

There is no 666 year old sea beast but within your own imagination. The number 666 has nothing to do with the age of one of the beasts of biblical prophecy.

Rev 13:18  Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

It is the number of a man, the man of sin. Not the age of a beast. It is the sea beast which receives and mortal wound from which it is healed.

Rev 13:1  And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. 2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. 3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. 4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? 5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. 6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. 7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. 8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. 9 If any man have an ear, let him hear. 10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

A mortal wound is a deadly wound. Being healed from a mortal wound is being resurrected. The above sea beast with seven heads and ten horns and the name of blasphemy receives a mortal wound which gets healed. The beast is resurrected. The woman of Revelation 17, Babylon the Great, rides this seven headed, ten horned beast fullmof the names of blasphemy again. Revelation 17 is about this beasts resurrection.

Rev 17:3  So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

As the Church of Rome rode the first beast of Revelation 13 in forming the Holy Roman Empire, so she is riding the ever rising and resurrected power of this beast again on a global scale under her guiding influence and control.

Rev 17:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns. 17 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

The sea beast is the only beast that was, then was not because of the mortal wound it received, and now is rising out of the bottomless pit to be once again. It was after the sea beast received a deadly wound which was healed, that all the world wondered after it in revelation 13. Revelation 17 is describing that healing, which is why it also say all the world wonders after this beast that was, is not, and yet is. Revelation 17 finishes the prophecies of 13, adding more details of identification. All the world wonders after the first beast of revelation 13 and 17 after the second beast of 13 helps heal its deadly wound. Which is what is taking place right now in these United States under ever increasing Catholic leadership. The political aspirations of Roman Catholicism are increasingly becoming the political aspirations of the governments and countries of this world through her unending manipulations of the same. Denial of this will not stop it. To the contrary it, it contributes to the chaos and confusion bringing it on.

Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: Amo on Sat Jan 30, 2021 - 14:45:54
I have been sitting this one out until this.

Ephesians 1:18 springs to mind.  Your eyes are not opened. Your reasoning is flawed.

You have a Catholic president, who has met with the Pope. This president has just signed an order for the US to pay for abortions abroad and in non citizens.

This is one reason God is staying out of this "end times" mix.

Now, carry on boys.

Yes, as is obvious, and as I have already pointed out many times over, the Church of Rome is willing to go even against her own teachings to unify with politicians who support her greater political agenda. She has done this all throughout her history. She washes their hands, and in turn they wash hers.
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Sat Jan 30, 2021 - 17:59:36
Amo, you’re missing the fine print again.  It is a HEAD on the Rev. 13 Sea Beast that receives a wound as it were unto death.  Heads were a particular individual component of the Sea Beast - NOT the entire Beast that was wounded.  And if HEADS for the other Rev. 17 Scarlet Beast were interpreted by the angel as 7 MOUNTAINS, then this wounded head is a catastrophe regarding another comparable set of 7 MOUNTAINS that the Rev. 13 Sea Beast sat upon.   

Rome’s deadly AD 64 fire during Nero’s reign was a catastrophe that devastated the physical city that sat upon seven hills.  Supplies had to be shipped in for the survival of Rome’s citizens, until Nero’s massive rebuilding program could be initiated.  To bring Rome’s infrastructure back to life again so soon after such a crushing disaster was indeed a cause for the earth to marvel.  Nero took advantage of the disaster to build his incredible “Golden House” and his mammoth “Colossus of Nero”.  This rebuilding program healed the deadly wound to the city, and kept the empire in power.

This Sea Beast,(represented at that time by the power of Rome), while under Nero, was going “to make war with the saints” for the  duration of a literal 42 months between late AD 64 after the fire and just before Nero’s death in AD 68.  The Christians were blamed for starting the fire at Rome, and Nero made martyrs of them during that 42 months to deflect the blame from himself, since he was suspected of burning Rome purposefully.

This was the same ongoing “fiery trial” that I Peter 4:12 was giving encouragement to believers experiencing the beginning part of those 42 months of persecution (written around AD 64), when Peter said that “the end of all things is at hand” (I Peter 4:7).

The emperor who imprisoned and held captive the believers and who killed Paul by the sword of execution would himself be driven from his fabulous Golden House, cornered like a rat, and die with a sword in his own neck in AD 68, as Rev. 13:10 foretold.

The Sea Beast with its “calculated number” of 666 YEARS is indeed the calculated age of Daniel’s STATUE OF A *MAN*, incorporating all those 4 different empires within a single male image.  As the Sea Beast’s first empire under Nebuchadnezzar, that “lion” representing Nebuchadnezzar’s empire was made to “stand upon the feet AS A *MAN*, and A *MAN’S* HEART WAS GIVEN UNTO IT” (Dan. 7:4). 

666 YEARS is the calculated numbered age of this image of a *MAN*, as of the time John was writing Revelation.  Totally different subject from the “Man of Lawlessness”.  You are conflating the two different subjects and mistakenly merging them into one.
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: RB on Sun Jan 31, 2021 - 03:56:30
I would like to jump in, but it has gone too far since I last posted, so I may one day soon start my own thread on Revelation 13, 17, and 18. Carry on....RB
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: Amo on Sat Feb 06, 2021 - 19:22:23
3 Res. -
Quote
Amo, you’re missing the fine print again.  It is a HEAD on the Rev. 13 Sea Beast that receives a wound as it were unto death.  Heads were a particular individual component of the Sea Beast - NOT the entire Beast that was wounded.  And if HEADS for the other Rev. 17 Scarlet Beast were interpreted by the angel as 7 MOUNTAINS, then this wounded head is a catastrophe regarding another comparable set of 7 MOUNTAINS that the Rev. 13 Sea Beast sat upon.

I’m not the one missing the point. Chapter twelve identifies Satan as the dragon with seven heads and ten horns(Rev 12:3-6). He casts water out of his mouth to carry away God’s people(Rev 12:15-17). These waters are the peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues which the whore of Rev 17 sits upon(Rev 17:15), who is Babylon the Great. Rev 13 then brings together and identifies these seven heads of the dragon, which are themselves the beasts and or kingdoms through which Satan rebells against God’s kingdom on this earth. Each beast in its turn representing the Dragon who establishes their power in defiance of God and His people.

Chapter 13 begins by identifying the first four beasts of biblical prophecy, or heads of the dragon, in reverse order as identified in the prophetic book of Daniel. All of these beast are parts and or heads of the dragon, and are therefore identified with the first beast being addressed in Rev 13. The beast has seven heads identifying it with the Dragon, and ten horns which identifies it with the dragon as well, but also the fourth beast of the book of Daniel chapter seven(Dan 7:7&8). Which beast also had ten horns and was dreadful and terrible beyond being symbolized by an animal or beast of the earth. Then it is said to be like unto a leopard which was the third beast of Daniel 7, then a bear which was the second beast of Daniel 7, and then a lion which was the first beast of Daniel seven. Here we are presented in Revelation 13 with the first five beasts of biblical prophecy, which continues to reveal all seven heads of the dragon which are the beasts of biblical prophecy.

1 - Lion - Babylon(Rev 13:2)
2 - Bear - Medo-Persia(Rev 13:2)
3 - Leopard - Grecia(Rev 13:2)
4 - Indescribable beast with ten horns - Pagan Rome(Rev 13:1)
5 - Beast rising out of the sea also indescribable with ten horns - Papal Rome(Rev 13:1-10)
6 - Beast coming up out of the earth with two horns like a lamb - United States(Rev13:11-14)
7 - Resurrected and or healed global sea beast brought back to life by the power of the lamb like beast who ends up speaking like a dragon.(Rev 13:15-18). 

I am not the one ignoring details three resurrections, you are.

The scriptures tell us what the waters and therefore the mountains the woman sits upon are -

Rev 17:15  And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

Yes, the mountains the woman Babylon the Great sits upon are peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues of those who support Satan’s kingdoms of this world which defy God’s kingdom and His people within it. Yes, most of those kingdoms or kings are now fallen and no more. One of them which had fallen though, by receiving a deadly wound, is now being given life again on a global scale by the power of the lamb like beast which now speaks as a dragon. But Satan’s kingdoms or mountains will come to naught, being overcome by God’s kingdom and Holy mountain which Satan himself was kicked out of.

Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. 14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. 16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. 17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. 18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. 19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

So shall be the fate of all who choose to be citizens of one of the counterfeit rebellious kingdoms or mountains which the evil one builds in defiance of the living God and His Holy mountain. They shall take their part in the lake of fire where the devil, beast, those who worship the beast, false prophet, and all whose names are not written in the book of life, and even death and hell will perish(Rev 19:20, 20:10,14,&15). While God’s own will flourish in His everlasting kingdom and mountain which He set up even in the days of the fourth beast of biblical prophecy through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Dan 2:34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. 35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth………..
44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. 45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

God’s mountain and or kingdom will fill the whole earth while the kingdoms and or mountains of this world, that is of Satan and those who live in defiance of God, will be blown away like chaff in the wind.

Isa 17:12  Woe to the multitude of many people, which make a noise like the noise of the seas; and to the rushing of nations, that make a rushing like the rushing of mighty waters! 13 The nations shall rush like the rushing of many waters: but God shall rebuke them, and they shall flee far off, and shall be chased as the chaff of the mountains before the wind, and like a rolling thing before the whirlwind.

Babylon sits upon the multitude of many people and nations symbolized by the sea, waters, mountains making much noise and rushing toward their end, which is to be chased as the chaff of the mountains before the wind. God will save His people, and they will level the mountains of the wicked, to be blown away like chaff in the wind.

Isa 41:13 For I the LORD thy God will hold thy right hand, saying unto thee, Fear not; I will help thee. 14 Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel. 15 Behold, I will make thee a new sharp threshing instrument having teeth: thou shalt thresh the mountains, and beat them small, and shalt make the hills as chaff. 16 Thou shalt fan them, and the wind shall carry them away, and the whirlwind shall scatter them: and thou shalt rejoice in the LORD, and shalt glory in the Holy One of Israel.

Why will you deny and therefore defy all of these biblical prophetic truths through your Preterist interpretations? Limiting them to relatively few before 70AD, and denying their significance throughout history since then, and for God’s own to this very day. At the same time this is denying prophetic truth meant to guide and aid God’s own on this earth until the end. That they may be prepared themselves, and warn as may others as possible not to take part in the sins of Babylon, but rather to come out of her kingdoms into the kingdom of God unto salvation in Christ Jesus our Lord. Why will you make war against these Biblical truths and God’s people in believing, preaching, and teaching deception?
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: Amo on Sat Feb 06, 2021 - 19:27:56
3 Res. -
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Rome’s deadly AD 64 fire during Nero’s reign was a catastrophe that devastated the physical city that sat upon seven hills.  Supplies had to be shipped in for the survival of Rome’s citizens, until Nero’s massive rebuilding program could be initiated.  To bring Rome’s infrastructure back to life again so soon after such a crushing disaster was indeed a cause for the earth to marvel.  Nero took advantage of the disaster to build his incredible “Golden House” and his mammoth “Colossus of Nero”.  This rebuilding program healed the deadly wound to the city, and kept the empire in power.

Wait a minute, now you're gong to change your entire argument up to this point, and declare the great city to be Rome instead of Jerusalem as you have been arguing? Which is it? Is the great city Jerusalem or Rome? You can say it is Jerusalem to defend certain aspects of your Preterist interpretations some times, and Rome to do so at other times if you wish of course. I do not see why though, you would expect anyone to take you seriously if you do.

Is Babylon the Great, the great city, Jerusalem or Rome according to your interpretation? If both whenever you choose to make it either, please do explain the rational of such. Thank you.
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: Amo on Sat Feb 06, 2021 - 19:36:02
3 Res. -
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This Sea Beast,(represented at that time by the power of Rome), while under Nero, was going “to make war with the saints” for the duration of a literal 42 months between late AD 64 after the fire and just before Nero’s death in AD 68.  The Christians were blamed for starting the fire at Rome, and Nero made martyrs of them during that 42 months to deflect the blame from himself, since he was suspected of burning Rome purposefully.

This was the same ongoing “fiery trial” that I Peter 4:12 was giving encouragement to believers experiencing the beginning part of those 42 months of persecution (written around AD 64), when Peter said that “the end of all things is at hand” (I Peter 4:7).

The beast which arose from the sea itself represents a kingdom, not the other way around as you have speculated above. Kingdoms of this world do not represent the biblical beasts of prophecy, the beasts themselves represent kingdoms of this world. This is what scripture teaches, not the other way around as your unsound interpretations apparently require.

There were 47 months between the burning of Rome in July 64, and Nero’s death in June 68, not 42. Nor did the burning of Rome cripple the Roman Empire or end it at all. It ended several centuries later. Countless millions more Christians were killed by papal Rome than pagan Rome, over a much longer period of time. As usual, your info and interpretations are historically inaccurate and suspect.

Christians were being persecuted long before Nero’s fire.

Act 7:57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord, 58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul. 59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. 60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
Act 8:1  And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles. 2 And devout men carried Stephen to his burial, and made great lamentation over him. 3 As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison.

Act 26:9 I verily thought with myself, that I ought to do many things contrary to the name of Jesus of Nazareth. 10 Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them. 11 And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities.

Peter’s advice and encouragement was for Christians of all times. Nor did he believe that the end of all things was right around the corner as you suggest, or anything like your Preterist interpretations regarding 70AD as his testimony in 2 Peter makes clear.

2Pe 3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: 2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: 3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

The Apostle Peter was not limited in any way shape or form by your, by your false Preterist interpretations of scripture or prophecy.
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: Amo on Sat Feb 06, 2021 - 19:44:34
3Res. -
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The emperor who imprisoned and held captive the believers and who killed Paul by the sword of execution would himself be driven from his fabulous Golden House, cornered like a rat, and die with a sword in his own neck in AD 68, as Rev. 13:10 foretold.

Not even worth addressing. Beasts are not men, they are kingdoms.

3Res. -
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The Sea Beast with its “calculated number” of 666 YEARS is indeed the calculated age of Daniel’s STATUE OF A *MAN*, incorporating all those 4 different empires within a single male image.  As the Sea Beast’s first empire under Nebuchadnezzar, that “lion” representing Nebuchadnezzar’s empire was made to “stand upon the feet AS A *MAN*, and A *MAN’S* HEART WAS GIVEN UNTO IT” (Dan. 7:4).


More Preterist nonsense. There is no prophecy concerning 666 years or even days which can prophetically mean years. The 666 prophecy is concerning the number of a man, not the years of any prophetic beasts existence.

Rev 13:17  And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. 18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

It is the number of a name, and of a man, probably the number of his name. When a prophecy itself tells you what it means regarding something, why will you then go looking elsewhere for a different meaning and application? Is it not because you wish to avoid where the prophecy really points?

Why will you make the lion beast of the book of Daniel the beast which rises from the sea in the book of Revelation? The beast which rises from the sea has parts of the lion beast within it, not the other way around. Why do your chosen interpretations so often turn things around? There is no mention of a beast rising out of the sea in the book of Daniel. Not concerning the lion beast, or any of the consecutive beasts mentioned after it. Use the scriptures to interpret themselves, don't just pull interpretations out of thin air or twist them around to make scripture fit preconceived ideas or interpretations.

2Pe 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

We know from scripture that the seven headed and ten horned dragon is Satan himself(Rev 12:3&9). We know that the seven mountains, beasts, and kings represent the same things from Revelation 17:9-11.

Rev 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. 10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. 11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

We know that scripture uses the symbols of heads, beasts, and mountains as representing kings or kingdoms.

Dan 2:36 This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king. 37 Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory. 38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.

Rev 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. 10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

Heads are symbols of kings or kingdoms.

Dan 7:17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth…………………………………………………………
23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

Dan 8:20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia. 21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

Beasts are symbols of kings or kingdoms.

Rev 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.[ 4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?…………………………………………………
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. 13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, 14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Revelation chapter twelve tells us that the dragon who is the devil has seven heads. Heads represent kingdoms. The first beast of Revelation 13 has seven heads as well, denoting that it is the dragon itself being manifested. The dragon itself gives this beast its power(verse 4). One of the heads of the dragon which is this beast, which is tied to the four beasts of Daniel seven in verses 1&2, receives a deadly wound. The healing of this deadly wound to only one of the seven heads of the dragon, is also the healing of this beast because the beast being addressed is the one following Daniel’s four beasts of Biblical prophecy. Which beasts were the kingdoms of Babylon, Medo-Persia, Grecia, and Pagan Rome consecutively, which was followed by Papal Rome(Holy Roman Empire). Which is the fifth beast of biblical prophecy and first beast of the new covenant. The wounded head of the dragon is this beast, as its healing is referred to as the healing of the beast, not just one of its heads(Rev 13:12&14).

The seven heads are the heads of the Dragon, which are the seven beasts or kingdoms through which Satan has continued his rebellion against God on this earth. Each existing in relation to and most often opposed to God’s people on this earth. Who are citizens of His spiritual kingdom on this earth. The seven heads, seven beasts, and seven mountains are the same. They are these seven kingdoms. They are Satan’s counterfeit kingdoms, to God’s eternal kingdom, existing in rebellion against the same. This holds true in particular regarding the symbol of mountains, as God’s city and kingdom are often referred to as His holy mountain(Isa 2:1-3, 11:9, 56:6-8, 66:20-23, Zec 8:3), just to mention a few. Which mountain or kingdom Satan was cast out of, which he attempts to replace with his own in the seven mountains, heads, and beasts of this worlds kingdoms.

Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. 16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

Come out of the kingdoms, beasts, mountains, and governments of this world whom the dragon gives power, and the Harlot sits upon. Come into the Kingdom of Christ, and the Holy mountain of God, in Christ Jesus our Lord. 
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: Amo on Sat Feb 06, 2021 - 19:49:57
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666 YEARS is the calculated numbered age of this image of a *MAN*, as of the time John was writing Revelation.  Totally different subject from the “Man of Lawlessness”.  You are conflating the two different subjects and mistakenly merging them into one.

That’s funny, you telling me that I am conflating two totally different subjects, while you make what scripture says is the number of the beast which is the number of a man, mean the age of the beast in years. Actually it isn’t funny, it is straight up dangerous to your soul. As are all attempts to add or take away from the words of the book of Revelation.

Rev 22:18  For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book. 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

I will leave you with the testimony of those who lived under the thumb of the papacy of the dark ages. Those who actually lived through what your Preterist interpretations of prophecy deny. Unlike your Preterist positions, there are many actual written accounts from those who lived through the correct interpretations of biblical prophecy. Your denial of the papacy being antichrist and the pope being the man of sin means and will certainly mean nothing to these people in the judgment who actually lived through what you deny. The following is some of their testimony, emphasis mine,  excerpted from -

Quote
PROJECT WITTENBERG

Of the Power and Primacy of the Pope
Treatise Compiled by the Theologians
 Assembled at Smalcald, in the
Year 1537

Published in:
Triglot Concordia: The Symbolical Books
of the Ev. Lutheran Church.
(St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1921), pp.503-529.

VII………………………Such superiority is impossible. For it is impossible for one bishop to be the overseer of the churches of the whole world, or for churches situated in the most distant lands to seek ordination [for all their ministers] from one. For it is manifest that the kingdom of Christ is scattered throughout the whole world; and to-day there are many churches in the East which do not seek ordination or confirmation from the Roman bishop [which have ministers ordained neither by the Pope nor his bishops]. Therefore, since such superiority [which the Pope, contrary to all Scripture, arrogates to himself] is impossible, and the churches in the greater part of the world have not acknowledged [nor made use of] it, it is sufficiently apparent that it was not instituted [by Christ, and does not spring from divine law].

XI………………………..The second article is still clearer, that Christ gave to the apostles only spiritual power, i.e., the command to teach the Gospel to announce the forgiveness of sins, to administer the Sacraments, to excommunicate the godless without bodily force [by the Word], and that He did not give the power of the sword, or the right to establish, occupy or confer kingdoms of the world [to set up or depose kings]. For Christ says, Matt. 28, 19. 20: Go ye, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you; also John 20, 21: As My Father hath sent Me, even so send I you.
Now, it is manifest that Christ was not sent to bear the sword or possess a worldly kingdom [rule in a worldly fashion], as He Himself says, John 18, 36: My kingdom is not of this world. And Paul says, 2 Cor. 1, 24: Not for that we have dominion over your faith; and 2 Cor. 10, 4: The weapons of our warfare are not carnal, etc.
Accordingly, that Christ in His passion is crowned with thorns and led forth to be derided in royal purple, this signified that in the future, after His spiritual kingdom was despised, i.e., the Gospel was suppressed, another kingdom of a worldly kind would be set up [in its place] with the pretext of ecclesiastical power. Therefore the Constitution of Boniface VIII and the chapter Omnes, Dist. 22 and similar opinions which contend that the Pope is by divine right the ruler of the kingdoms of the world, are [utterly] false and godless. From this persuasion horrible darkness has been brought into the Church, and after that also great commotions have arisen in Europe. For the ministry of the Gospel was neglected, the knowledge of faith and the spiritual kingdom became extinct, Christian righteousness was supposed to be that external government which the Pope had established.
Next, the Popes began to seize upon kingdoms for themselves; they transferred kingdoms, they vexed with unjust excommunications and wars the kings of almost all nations in Europe, but especially the German emperors, sometimes for the purpose of occupying cities of Italy, at other times for the purpose of reducing to subjection the bishops of Germany, and wresting from the emperors the conferring of episcopates. Yea, in the Clementines it is even written: When the empire is vacant, the Pope is the legitimate successor.
Thus the Pope has not only usurped dominion, contrary to Christ's command, but has also tyrannically exalted himself above all kings. And in this matter the deed itself is not to be reprehended as much as it is to be detested, that he assigns as a pretext the authority of Christ; that he transfers the keys to a worldly government; that he binds salvation to these godless and execrable opinions, when he says it is necessary to salvation for men to believe that this dominion belongs to him by divine right.
Since these great errors obscure [the doctrine of] faith and [of] the kingdom of Christ they are in no way to be concealed. For the result shows that they have been great pests to the Church………………………………………..

Now, it is manifest that the Roman pontiffs, with their adherents, defend [and practice] godless doctrines and godless services. And the marks [all the vices] of Antichrist plainly agree with the kingdom of the Pope and his adherents. For Paul, 2 Ep. 2, 3, in describing to the Thessalonians Antichrist, calls him an adversary of Christ, who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God. He speaks therefore of one ruling in the Church, not of heathen kings, and he calls this one the adversary of Christ, because he will devise doctrine conflicting with the Gospel, and will assume to himself divine authority.
Moreover, it is manifest, in the first place, that the Pope rules in the Church, and by the pretext of ecclesiastical authority and of the ministry has established for himself this kingdom. For he assigns as a pretext these words: I will give to thee the keys. Secondly, the doctrine of the Pope conflicts in many ways with the Gospel, and [thirdly] the Pope assumes to himself divine authority in a threefold manner. First, because he takes to himself the right to change the doctrine of Christ and services instituted by God, and wants his own doctrine and his own services to be observed as divine; secondly, because he takes to himself the power not only of binding and loosing in this life, but also the jurisdiction over souls after this life; thirdly, because the Pope does not want to be judged by the Church or by any one, and puts his own authority ahead of the decision of Councils and the entire Church. But to be unwilling to be judged by the Church or by any one is to make oneself God. Lastly, these errors so horrible, and this impiety, he defends with the greatest cruelty, and puts to death those dissenting.
This being the case, all Christians ought to beware of becoming partakers of the godless doctrine, blasphemies, and unjust cruelty of the Pope. On this account they ought to desert and execrate the Pope with his adherents as the kingdom of Antichrist; just as Christ has commanded,……………………..

Therefore, even though the bishop of Rome had the primacy by divine right, yet since he defends godless services and doctrine conflicting with the Gospel, obedience is not due him; yea, it is necessary to resist him as Antichrist. The errors of the Pope are manifest and not trifling.
Manifest also is the cruelty [against godly Christians] which he exercises. And it is clear that it is God's command that we flee idolatry, godless doctrine, and unjust cruelty. On this account all the godly have great, compelling, and manifest reasons for not obeying the Pope. And these compelling reasons comfort the godly against all the reproaches which are usually cast against them concerning offenses, schism, and discord [which they are said to cause].
But those who agree with the Pope, and defend his doctrine and [false] services, defile themselves with idolatry and blasphemous opinions, become guilty of the blood of the godly, whom the Pope [and his adherents] persecutes, detract from the glory of God, and hinder the welfare of the Church, because they strengthen errors and crimes to all posterity [in the sight of all the world and to the injury of all descendants].

The above quoted excerpts, are just a few selected points of a much more thorough work addressing the abusive power and practice of the papacy during the dark ages. Beside this much more thorough document, there are thousands of other written and recorded by those who actually lived and suffered under the heavy and abusive hand of the papacy and her political minions. This is the history which has been systematically removed from our educational institutions, libraries, and all avenues of public view and discourse by the deliberate purposes of the papacy herself. While she has at the same time revised historical accounts in her favor and introduced false interpretations of biblical prophecy. Including that which you teach and promote. All of this is unto her exaltation once again by the ignorant masses under the thumb of her present evil political counterparts and minions.   

Therefore is she rising again unto the final global beast of biblical prophecy. Which all the damned have, do, and will continue to help facilitate through either abject ignorance, or ungodly knowledgable cooperation.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Sun Feb 07, 2021 - 10:44:00
Morning Amo,

Let’s make this reeeeeeally simple.  I appreciate how fervent you are in defending your view, but there’s actually no need to identify WHO Mystery Babylon is, as long as we know *WHEN* she was to be destroyed and *BY WHOM*.  Scripture gives us that very specific information in Rev 17:8 and Rev. 17:16.

You say Mystery Babylon is Papal Rome, both historically and in our future.  That’s not even remotely possible because of those two verses above - Rev. 17:8 and 16.

Question: WHO was the agency said to cause Mystery Babylon’s destruction?

Answer: THE 10 HORNS ON THE SCARLET BEAST of Rev. 17:16.  “And the TEN HORNS which thou sawest upon the beast, THESE shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.”  Nothing was to be left of Mystery Babylon after the 10 horns had eaten her and burned her up.  She’s excrement and ashes at that point.

Question: If the 10 horns were to be part of the Scarlet Beast, and to have shared power with it for that “one hour”, then when did that Scarlet Beast itself get destroyed?

Answer:  The entire Scarlet Beast, including its 10 horns and 7 heads, was SOON ABOUT TO BE DESTROYED back in JOHN’S DAYS - not in our future.  “The beast that thou didst see: it was, and it is not; and it IS *ABOUT TO* come up out of the abyss and GO AWAY TO DESTRUCTION...” (YLT).   Both the re-emergence AND THE DESTRUCTION of that Scarlet Beast was SOON about to happen for those living in JOHN’S DAYS - not in our future. 

Many, many translations (about 27 out of 45 at least that I’ve counted to date) have translated this verse correctly using the Greek term “mello” that indicates an imminent event that was ABOUT TO HAPPEN for those reading the prophecy for the first time.

Question: How is it possible for Mystery Babylon to exist AFTER the agency that destroys HER is destroyed itself?  Not possible.  Mystery Babylon doesn’t outlive the Scarlet Beast and its heads and horns.  She was to be destroyed BEFORE the Scarlet Beast was itself destroyed, and THAT was back in the distant past , in JOHN’S DAYS.

We don’t need to go into lengthy discussions and disputes of the identity of these entities - the Scarlet Beast, the horns, and Mystery Babylon.  All that is a moot point if we know WHEN they were all to be destroyed.  And scripture tells us without doubt that this was soon about to happen back in JOHN’S DAYS.




Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: Amo on Sun Feb 07, 2021 - 12:54:57
The beast which rises from the sea had ten horns before it received the deadly wound, which were the ten kingdoms of Europe which Babylon the Great rode. When it rises again after the wound is healed it will again  -
Rev 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. 12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. 13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. 14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. 15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. 16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. 17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled. 18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

The ten kings give their power over to the beast for one hour, or until the words of God shall be fulfilled. After God's word has been fulfilled, and they realize they have been deceived to late I might add, they will then turn on the whore Babylon the Great and destroy her. This will not save them though. God will simply allow them to take vengeance against Babylon the Great who deceived them according to their own desires.

At this point though, I will leave you to your chosen deception. You have been supplied with ample evidence of the truth, and can see for yourself what is happening in and to this world if you so desire. God forces the truth upon no one, nor do I desire to do any such thing. Serve your chosen teachers, as I will continue to serve mine.
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Sun Feb 07, 2021 - 13:54:55
Amo, my “chosen deception” as you call it, is to believe that the Greek term “mello” and its derivative forms truly DO mean that the event spoken of (the death of the Scarlet Beast) was on the NEAR HORIZON for John’s readers in those first-century days. 

Why do you want to discount and blow off the meaning of this word “mello” in the original language in Rev. 17:8?  RB does this because he doesn’t think Greek should even be considered compared to the KJV (which is the only version he relies on), but what’s YOUR reason for ignoring the Greek in Rev. 17:8?

I’ve got to say, your last reply didn’t address my question AT ALL with any kind of explanation or defense. 

This should be a very, very simple question to answer:  How can Mystery Babylon (whatever she represents) OUTLIVE the Scarlet Beast if the Scarlet Beast’s 10 horns are what destroys her BEFORE it is destroyed itself?  The answer is that it’s impossible.  And we are told that the Scarlet Beast in its entirety was “ABOUT TO...GO INTO DESTRUCTION” - in JOHN’S DAYS.  Therefore, Mystery Babylon was eaten and burned up JUST BEFORE that first-century death of the Scarlet Beast.  No more Mystery Babylon after that.

You have invested a vast amount of study to arrive at your position, Amo.  That fact shines clearly throughout your posts.   I respect anyone who has devoted such sincere, intense levels of study of God’s words.  He is most worthy of this devotion, for sure.   But this one question above shoots a hole through your entire paradigm and makes it sink.
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: Amo on Sat Feb 13, 2021 - 13:03:15
Amo, my “chosen deception” as you call it, is to believe that the Greek term “mello” and its derivative forms truly DO mean that the event spoken of (the death of the Scarlet Beast) was on the NEAR HORIZON for John’s readers in those first-century days. 

Why do you want to discount and blow off the meaning of this word “mello” in the original language in Rev. 17:8?  RB does this because he doesn’t think Greek should even be considered compared to the KJV (which is the only version he relies on), but what’s YOUR reason for ignoring the Greek in Rev. 17:8?

I’ve got to say, your last reply didn’t address my question AT ALL with any kind of explanation or defense. 

This should be a very, very simple question to answer:  How can Mystery Babylon (whatever she represents) OUTLIVE the Scarlet Beast if the Scarlet Beast’s 10 horns are what destroys her BEFORE it is destroyed itself?  The answer is that it’s impossible.  And we are told that the Scarlet Beast in its entirety was “ABOUT TO...GO INTO DESTRUCTION” - in JOHN’S DAYS.  Therefore, Mystery Babylon was eaten and burned up JUST BEFORE that first-century death of the Scarlet Beast.  No more Mystery Babylon after that.

You have invested a vast amount of study to arrive at your position, Amo.  That fact shines clearly throughout your posts.   I respect anyone who has devoted such sincere, intense levels of study of God’s words.  He is most worthy of this devotion, for sure.   But this one question above shoots a hole through your entire paradigm and makes it sink.

I Have already addressed all of the above at length in my responses to you. There is a whole lot more to the book of Revelation than just the scarlet beast and mystery Babylon. The book begins by addressing the seven churches. These are the churches of Christ. The prophecies of the book are in relation to Christ's church and her enemies in the world until the end. Those prophecies did in fact begin to unfold within the early church, as the NT itself testifies, and have been continuing ever since. They began to pass within the days of the apostles themselves. Who themselves warned the church of these things which were already transpiring in their day, and the prophecies of the book of Revelation picked up upon and continue until the end.

2Th 2:1  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. 29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. 31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

2Pe 2:1  But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. 3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

No one question from anybody makes the testimony of the word of God to His church sink. I am not the one between us who has closed my mind to the unending depth of the prophecies of God's word. Who is ignoring a great many details of the book of Revelation concerning things which absolutely have not yet transpired, while also ignoring very much which has transpired, unfolding throughout time in the pages of history. I am not the one who claims to have already totally figured out and comprehends all which God intended to reveal through the prophecies of the book of Revelation. Your reduction of the prophecies of the book of Revelation given to the church to guide her throughout the duration of her existence until the end, to a period of only a few decades, is either ignorant or intentional short sightedness unto a pre determined effect. The word of God though, will not be trapped within your or anyone else's box. It will have the effect He intended without being hindered in any way shape or form by the extremely limited and short sighted imaginations or corrupt purposes of humanity.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away 5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. 6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

The above is most obviously yet future, do you not agree? If not, then please do explain how it has already been fulfilled, that the absurdity of your views may become all the more evident. If you admit that it has not yet happened, then how demand you that all we have been discussing must have happened prior to 70AD. Which is it? Is it all fulfilled or not? If so explain the above in light of that claim please. If not, then admit your claim that all we have been discussing must have transpired before 70AD is faulty. Thank you.
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Sat Feb 13, 2021 - 13:39:08
Hi Amo,

Your question about the New Heavens and New Earth is a deflection from answering my last question to you about WHEN the Scarlet Beast and the whore riding it was all destroyed. 

I repeat once again: If Rev. 17:8 said the Scarlet Beast was “*ABOUT TO*...GO INTO DESTRUCTION” back in JOHN’S time, then what possible threat can that Scarlet Beast or the woman riding it be to us today? (Since the 10 horns of the Scarlet Beast were back then about to kill her just before the Scarlet Beast was itself soon to be destroyed.)  What do you think the words “ABOUT TO” actually mean? 

Yes, it’s true that there is much more subject matter in Revelation than the Scarlet Beast or Mystery Babylon.  That’s not the point.  I’m concentrating on one point only for the present, because you are not answering this single question.  I’m trying to make this as simple as I can.  One thing at a time.
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: Amo on Sat Feb 13, 2021 - 17:30:53
Hi Amo,

Your question about the New Heavens and New Earth is a deflection from answering my last question to you about WHEN the Scarlet Beast and the whore riding it was all destroyed. 

I repeat once again: If Rev. 17:8 said the Scarlet Beast was “*ABOUT TO*...GO INTO DESTRUCTION” back in JOHN’S time, then what possible threat can that Scarlet Beast or the woman riding it be to us today? (Since the 10 horns of the Scarlet Beast were back then about to kill her just before the Scarlet Beast was itself soon to be destroyed.)  What do you think the words “ABOUT TO” actually mean? 

Yes, it’s true that there is much more subject matter in Revelation than the Scarlet Beast or Mystery Babylon.  That’s not the point.  I’m concentrating on one point only for the present, because you are not answering this single question.  I’m trying to make this as simple as I can.  One thing at a time.

No deflection, just misunderstanding. I skimmed through your post to fast, and addressed the wrong issue which I have already addressed. Concerning Jesus statement regarding the book of Revelation concerning events shortly coming to pass. My bad.

Rev 17:10  And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

The vision is given from the time and viewpoint of the sixth king. Five have already fallen. We will never agree regarding the time of its existence and effect, while we believe so differently regarding that time. You believe all the beasts, heads, mountains, and kings existed and ended by 70AD. I believe the book of Revelation to be a continuation of the prophecies of the book of Daniel up to the end of this worlds history at Christ's second coming. You believe He already came a second time. We will never see eye to eye.

Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

I do not believe your claim that Christ returned in 70AD. My Lord has defined such as deception.
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Sat Feb 13, 2021 - 18:28:43
No Amo, you are STILL not concentrating on the single verse I am looking at.

Revelation 17:8, and NOT Rev. 17:10.  Only one phrase in particular in this single verse -  “*ABOUT TO*...GO INTO DESTRUCTION”.  “ABOUT TO” means exactly the same thing today as it did back then when John was writing Revelation.  The Scarlet Beast’s destruction was expected on the very near horizon BACK THEN.   Which means that the death of Mystery Babylon had to take place even BEFORE that near event of the Scarlet Beast’s destruction.

This is very, very simple.  You are bouncing all over the place in your attempt to cover territory that I’m not even touching right now.   This is a very, very simple phrase that anyone can understand from an ordinary definition of these words. 

Why are you trying to redefine what “ABOUT TO” means?  This is not a “box” that I have created to interpret scripture with.  It’s scripture’s own self-limitations, using time indicators put in ordinary language that there is no way to logically avoid.  That is, unless you have an agenda that overrides that very plain language.

Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: Amo on Mon Feb 15, 2021 - 21:54:14
No Amo, you are STILL not concentrating on the single verse I am looking at.

Revelation 17:8, and NOT Rev. 17:10.  Only one phrase in particular in this single verse -  “*ABOUT TO*...GO INTO DESTRUCTION”.  “ABOUT TO” means exactly the same thing today as it did back then when John was writing Revelation.  The Scarlet Beast’s destruction was expected on the very near horizon BACK THEN.   Which means that the death of Mystery Babylon had to take place even BEFORE that near event of the Scarlet Beast’s destruction.

This is very, very simple.  You are bouncing all over the place in your attempt to cover territory that I’m not even touching right now.   This is a very, very simple phrase that anyone can understand from an ordinary definition of these words. 

Why are you trying to redefine what “ABOUT TO” means?  This is not a “box” that I have created to interpret scripture with.  It’s scripture’s own self-limitations, using time indicators put in ordinary language that there is no way to logically avoid.  That is, unless you have an agenda that overrides that very plain language.

You are most definitely in a box 3Res. You will not confine me to that box. You will not pull two words out of the context of the chapter they are in, from one bible version you have chosen because it suits your argument, and make me believe it by doing so. Try as you may. Get a grip 3Res. The first four beasts of biblical prophecy found in the book of Daniel, symbolized four separate kingdoms of this earth, spanning many centuries and even embracing Christ's first coming and the end of this world. The three beasts of the book of Revelation did not rise and fall within a few decades but within the box you have submitted your mind to. Here are a few more versions of Rev 17:8 for you to ponder the meaning of.

KJ21
The beast that thou sawest was, and is not, and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit and go into perdition; and they that dwell on the earth, whose names were not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, shall wonder when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

ASV
The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and is about to come up out of the abyss, and to go into perdition. And they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, they whose name hath not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast, how that he was, and is not, and shall come.

AMP
“The beast that you saw was [once], but [now] is not, and he is about to come up out of the abyss (the bottomless pit, the dwelling place of demons) and go to destruction (perdition). And the inhabitants of the earth, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, will be astonished when they see the beast, because he was and is not and is yet to come [to earth].

AMPC
The beast that you saw [once] was, but [now] is no more, and he is going to come up out of the Abyss (the bottomless pit) and proceed to go to perdition. And the inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been recorded in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world will be astonished when they look at the beast, because he [once] was, but [now] is no more, and he is [yet] to come.

BRG
The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

CSB
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up from the abyss and go to destruction. Those who live on the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast that was, and is not, and is to come.

CEB
The beast that you saw was and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. Those who live on earth, whose names haven’t been written in the scroll of life from the time the earth was made, will be amazed when they see the beast, because it was and is not and will again be present.

CJB
The beast you saw once was, now is not, and will come up from the Abyss; but it is on its way to destruction. The people living on earth whose names have not been written in the Book of Life since the founding of the world will be astounded to see the beast that once was, now is not, but is to appear.

CEV
The beast you saw is one that used to be and no longer is. It will come back from the deep pit, but only to be destroyed. Everyone on earth whose names were not written in the book of life before the time of creation will be amazed. They will see this beast that used to be and no longer is, but will be once more.

DARBY
The beast which thou sawest was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go into destruction: and they who dwell on the earth, whose names are not written from the founding of the world in the book of life, shall wonder, seeing the beast, that it was, and is not, and shall be present.

DLNT
The beast which you saw was and is not and is going to come-up out of the abyss. And he goes to destruction. And the ones dwelling upon the earth whose name has not been written on the book of life since the foundation of the world will be caused-to-marvel while seeing the beast, because he was and is not and will be present.

DRA
The beast, which thou sawest, was, and is not, and shall come up out of the bottomless pit, and go into destruction: and the inhabitants on the earth (whose names are not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world) shall wonder, seeing the beast that was, and is not.

ERV
The beast you saw was once alive, but now it is not. However, it will come up out of the bottomless pit and go away to be destroyed. The people who live on the earth will be amazed when they see the beast, because it was once alive, is no longer living, but will come again. These are the people whose names have never been written in the book of life since the beginning of the world.

EHV
The beast that you saw: He existed, is no more, and he is about to come out of the abyss and go to destruction. Those who make their home on the earth, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life from the creation of the world, will be amazed when they see the beast, because he existed, is no more, and will exist again.

ESV
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come.

ESVUK
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come.

EXB
The beast you saw ·was once alive but is not alive now [L was, and is not; 13:3, 12, 14]. But soon it will come up out of the ·bottomless pit [Abyss; 9:1] and go away to ·be destroyed [its destruction]. There are people who live on earth whose names have not been written in the ·book [scroll] of life [3:5] since the ·beginning [foundation; creation] of the world. They will be amazed when they see the beast, because he was ·once alive, is not alive now, but will come again [L was, is not, but is to come; C imitating the divine title of the Lamb (1:18; 2:8) and God (1:4, 8; 4:8)].

GNV
The beast that thou hast seen, was and is not, and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and shall go into perdition, and they that dwell on the earth, shall wonder (whose names are not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world) when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

GW
“You saw the beast which once was, is no longer, and will come from the bottomless pit and go to its destruction. Those living on earth, whose names were not written in the Book of Life when the world was created, will be surprised when they see the beast because it was, is no longer, and will come again.

GNT
That beast was once alive, but lives no longer; it is about to come up from the abyss and will go off to be destroyed. The people living on earth whose names have not been written before the creation of the world in the book of the living, will all be amazed as they look at the beast. It was once alive; now it no longer lives, but it will reappear.

HCSB
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up from the abyss and go to destruction. Those who live on the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast that was, and is not, and will be present again.

ICB
The beast that you saw was once alive. He is not alive now. But he will be alive and come up out of the bottomless pit and go away to be destroyed. The people who live on earth will be amazed when they see the beast. They will be amazed because he was once alive, is not alive now, but will come again. These are the people whose names have never been written in the book of life since the beginning of the world.

ISV
The beast that you saw existed once, but is no longer, and is going to crawl out of the bottomless pit and then proceed to its destruction. Those living on earth, whose names were not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, will be surprised when they see the beast because it was, is no longer, and will come again.

PHILLIPS
Then I noticed that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints and of the martyrs for Jesus. As I watched her, I was filled with utter amazement, but the angel said to me, “Why are you amazed? I will explain to you the mystery of the woman and of the animal with seven heads and ten horns which carries her. The animal, which you saw, once lived but now is no more—it will come up out of the pit only to meet with destruction. The inhabitants of the earth, whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will be utterly astonished when they see that the animal was, and is not, and yet is to come.

JUB
The beast that thou sawest was, and is not, and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and shall go into perdition; and those that dwell on the earth shall wonder (whose names are not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world) when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

KJV
The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

AKJV
The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

LEB
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is going to come up from the abyss, and he is going to destruction. And those who live on the earth, whose names are not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will be astonished when they see the beast that was, and is not, and will be present.

TLB
He was alive but isn’t now. And yet, soon he will come up out of the bottomless pit and go to eternal destruction; and the people of earth, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life before the world began, will be dumbfounded at his reappearance after being dead.*


MEV
The beast, which you saw, was, and is not, and is to ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to destruction. Those who dwell on the earth whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world will marvel when they see the beast that was, and is not, and is to come.

MOUNCE
The beast that you saw was, and now is not, but is about to rise from the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose names have not been written · in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, will be astounded when they see the beast, because he was and is not, but is to come.

NOG
“You saw the beast which once was, is no longer, and will come from the bottomless pit and go to its destruction. Those living on earth, whose names were not written in the Book of Life when the world was created, will be surprised when they see the beast because it was, is no longer, and will come again.

NABRE
The beast that you saw existed once but now exists no longer. It will come up from the abyss and is headed for destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world shall be amazed when they see the beast, because it existed once but exists no longer, and yet it will come again.

NASB
“The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who live on the earth, whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was, and is not, and will come.

NASB1995
“The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come.

NCV
The beast you saw was once alive but is not alive now. But soon it will come up out of the bottomless pit and go away to be destroyed. There are people who live on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life since the beginning of the world. They will be amazed when they see the beast, because he was once alive, is not alive now, but will come again.

NET
The beast you saw was, and is not, but is about to come up from the abyss and then go to destruction. The inhabitants of the earth—all those whose names have not been written in the book of life since the foundation of the world—will be astounded when they see that the beast was, and is not, but is to come.

NIRV
The beast that you saw used to exist and now does not. Yet it will come up out of the Abyss and be destroyed. Some people on the earth will be amazed when they see the beast. Their names have not been written in the book of life from the time the world was created. They will be amazed at the beast. That’s because it will come again even though it used to exist and now does not.

NIV
The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come.

NIVUK
The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come.

NKJV
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

NLV
The red wild animal you saw was alive but is now dead. He will come up from the hole without a bottom and be destroyed. The people of the earth, whose names have not been written in the book of life from the beginning of the world, will be surprised as they look at the red wild animal. He was alive, but not now, but will yet come.

NLT
The beast you saw was once alive but isn’t now. And yet he will soon come up out of the bottomless pit and go to eternal destruction. And the people who belong to this world, whose names were not written in the Book of Life before the world was made, will be amazed at the reappearance of this beast who had died.

NMB
The beast that you see was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit, and will go into perdition. And they who dwell on the earth (whose names are not written in the book of life from the beginning of the world) will marvel when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

NRSV
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to ascend from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the inhabitants of the earth, whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will be amazed when they see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come.

NRSVA
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to ascend from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the inhabitants of the earth, whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will be amazed when they see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come.

NRSVACE
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to ascend from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the inhabitants of the earth, whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will be amazed when they see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come.

NRSVCE
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to ascend from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the inhabitants of the earth, whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will be amazed when they see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come.

NTE
The monster you saw was, and is not, and is due to come up from the Abyss and go to destruction. All the inhabitants of the earth will be amazed – all, that is, whose names are not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world – when they see the monster that was and is not and is to come.

OJB
"The Chayyah (Anti-Moshiach), which you saw, was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the Tehom (Abyss) and goes to destruction. And the ones dwelling on ha’aretz will be astonished, those whose names have not been found written in the Sefer HaChayyim (Book of Life) from the hivvased tevel (foundation of the world), when they see the Chayyah (Anti-Moshiach) that was, and is not, and is to come.

TPT
The wild beast you saw once was, now is not, and is destined to ascend out of the deep and go to destruction. All those whose names have not been written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world will be utterly astonished when they see the wild beast because he once was, now is not, and is about to rise.

RGT
The beast that you have seen was and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit; and shall go into perdition. And those who dwell on the earth - whose names are not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world - shall wonder when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

RSV
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is to ascend from the bottomless pit and go to perdition; and the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will marvel to behold the beast, because it was and is not and is to come.

RSVCE
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is to ascend from the bottomless pit and go to perdition; and the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will marvel to behold the beast, because it was and is not and is to come.

TLV
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and yet is about to rise up from the abyss and head for destruction. Those who dwell on the earth—whose names have not been written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world—will be astonished when they see the beast, because he was and is not and is to come.

VOICE
The beast you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go away into eternal destruction. And the earth dwellers, whose names have not been inscribed in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will be astonished when they see the beast because it was and is not and is to come.

WEB
The beast that you saw was, and is not; and is about to come up out of the abyss and to go into destruction. Those who dwell on the earth and whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel when they see that the beast was, and is not, and shall be present.

WE
`The beast that you saw was alive at one time, then it was dead. It will come up from the big hole that has no bottom and it will be killed. The people on earth will be surprised when they see the beast, because it was alive and then it was dead, and it comes alive again. These are the people who do not have their names written in the book of life from the time the world was made.

WYC
The beast which thou seest, was, and is not; and she shall ascend up from [the] deepness, and she shall go into perishing. And men dwelling in earth shall wonder, whose names be not written in the book of life from the making of the world, seeing the beast, that was, and is not.

YLT
`The beast that thou didst see: it was, and it is not; and it is about to come up out of the abyss, and to go away to destruction, and wonder shall those dwelling upon the earth, whose names have not been written upon the scroll of the life from the foundation of the world, beholding the beast that was, and is not, although it is.


Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Mon Feb 15, 2021 - 23:28:09
Amo, I’m not even talking about Daniel or the Sea Beast or the Beast from the Land right now.  Just the Scarlet Beast alone from Rev. 17:8.  And just the single phrase “ABOUT TO...GO INTO DESTRUCTION”, which was spoken about the soon-coming fate of the Scarlet Beast alone.

As I mentioned above, even a quick survey of 45 translations had 27 of them which translated this Rev. 17:8 verse recognizing the meaning of the “ABOUT TO” term (mellei).  Are all those 27 versions incorrect in your opinion? 

When scripture says something is ABOUT TO HAPPEN, this is NOT describing an event that will be delayed 2,000 years and more. To think that such a lengthy delay is intended is to twist the normal definition of “about to” out of its ordinary use.  Why are you trying to do this? 

Jesus used the very same phrase when he addressed the disciples in Luke 21:36 (YLT) about the entire list of events that would happen both PRIOR TO and INCLUDING His return.  “Watch ye, then, in every season, praying that ye may be accounted worthy to escape ALL these things that are *ABOUT TO* (mellonta) COME TO PASS and to stand before the Son of Man.”  At least 13 translations out of 45 catch the imminent intent of the “mellonta” term.  Are they all mistaken as well as myself with the meaning of this Greek “mello” term?  I don’t think so.

Christ wasn’t kidding.  The beginning of that entire list of predicted events was about to start almost as soon as He ascended, with the persecution of the disciples in the synagogues and the imprisonment and martyrdom of some of them (like Stephen).  Seismic and volcanic activity was about to increase in divers places, and wars, famines (such as in the reign of Claudius) and commotions, etc., etc., right up until Christ’s return - which was also included in that list of things “ABOUT TO COME TO PASS”.

A child could understand the simple language describing the imminent timing of all these things that would happen soon after in the first century, but grown adults who have been taught otherwise for so long fail to see this.  So sad.
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: Rella on Tue Feb 16, 2021 - 08:55:54


As I mentioned above, even a quick survey of 45 translations had 27 of them which translated this Rev. 17:8 verse recognizing the meaning of the “ABOUT TO” term (mellei).  Are all those 27 versions incorrect in your opinion? 

When scripture says something is ABOUT TO HAPPEN, this is NOT describing an event that will be delayed 2,000 years and more. To think that such a lengthy delay is intended is to twist the normal definition of “about to” out of its ordinary use.  Why are you trying to do this? 

I do not know why he is but I can tell you that the jury is still out on ABOUT TO meaning that it was imminent.

Even referring back to the prophet Obadiah who said “For the day of Jehovah is near upon all the nations” (Obad. 15). KJV

This cannot refer to some local judgment, because “all nations” are to be involved. And yet, the event is depicted as near.

Interlinear

"15 As. the nations all upon of Yahweh the day [is] near For. upon your own head shall return Your reprisal to you continually the nations all[So] shall drink my holy mountain on you drank as For

Quite telling, this, how KING JAMES men decided to interpret this.

 There are other prophecies like this.... NOT the least of which is James 5:8  You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand.     James could not have been predicting the literally imminent return of the Savior, for such knowledge was not made available to those who recorded and wrote of the things of the Lord.. Not even Jesus himself knew of the time of his return to earth .... Mathew 24:36.   


Jesus used the very same phrase when he addressed the disciples in Luke 21:36 (YLT) about the entire list of events that would happen both PRIOR TO and INCLUDING His return.  “Watch ye, then, in every season, praying that ye may be accounted worthy to escape ALL these things that are *ABOUT TO* (mellonta) COME TO PASS and to stand before the Son of Man.”  At least 13 translations out of 45 catch the imminent intent of the “mellonta” term.  Are they all mistaken as well as myself with the meaning of this Greek “mello” term?  I don’t think so.

as well as myself perhaps if you can explain this... we might be able to close a gap.... or not

Jimmys men have this final scritpure in Luke reading

Luke 21:36
King James Version
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man......  THAT SHALL COME TO PASS ~ near or far

New King James says
36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may [a]be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”.... THAT WILL COME TO PASS ~near or far

1599 Geneva Bible says
36 Watch therefore, and pray continually, that ye may be counted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and that ye may [a]stand before the son of man.... THAT SHALL COME TO PASS ~ near or far

So you quote a YLT of Luke 21:36 where they saw things differently then these commonly known bibles above

And the Greek/English interlinear only has books of Luke going to 24 not 36.




Christ wasn’t kidding.  The beginning of that entire list of predicted events was about to start almost as soon as He ascended, with the persecution of the disciples in the synagogues and the imprisonment and martyrdom of some of them (like Stephen).  Seismic and volcanic activity was about to increase in divers places, and wars, famines (such as in the reign of Claudius) and commotions, etc., etc., right up until Christ’s return - which was also included in that list of things “ABOUT TO COME TO PASS”.

A child could understand the simple language describing the imminent timing of all these things that would happen soon after in the first century, but grown adults who have been taught otherwise for so long fail to see this.  So sad.

From my studies of the subject of prophesy and eschatology that admittedly do not have the longevity as you have into things I can conclude this....

Aside from the etymological sense of a term, words can and do  take on special meanings, depending upon the nature of the immediate context or depending upon the type of literature in which they are found.

Example... in contexts dealing with prophecy, the time factor becomes quite elastic. Some prophecies are framed in language that makes it appear as if the events were accomplished already. This is done in order to emphasize the certainty of God’s plan. A primary example of this is in Isaiah  9:6 NKJV that reads

6 For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

What, then, is the significance of the term “shortly” in Revelation 1:1. To a considerable extent, this depends on the view that one entertains relative to the thrust of the book as a whole.

If you have not read it.... this is a great read. "  Revelation — Christ’s Final Message of Hope" and especially “The Time Is ‘At Hand’.
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Tue Feb 16, 2021 - 09:57:00
Hi Rella,

The term you are using in your examples is the Greek “engus” word meaning “near” or “presently at hand”.  That word and it’s uses is a fascinating study in itself, but is NOT the word I am focusing on right now in the YLT version I used for just one example.  And I don’t agree with you that the YLT version is not a “commonly known” version that I cited.   

Instead of “engus”, I’m looking particularly at the Greek “mello” term and its derivatives, as used in Rev. 17:8 about the Scarlet Beast’s IMMINENT DESTRUCTION back then, (and also notably in Luke 21:36 concerning Christ’s first-century return and the IMMINENT events that were about to occur just prior to that return). 

This “mello” term and its variants are used all over the place in the New Testament.  In each context, it refers to events that were going to take place in the immediate future - certainly NOT delayed for 2,000 years and counting.  Just one example in Luke 9:31 being the Mount of Transfiguration, when Moses and Elijah were speaking with Christ of His death that He was “ABOUT TO ACCOMPLISH” at Jerusalem.  Certainly an imminent event at that point.

Rella, you already know, I think, that I don’t believe that this first-century return of Christ that was “ABOUT TO COME TO PASS” back then was the ONLY return of Christ that scripture reveals to us.  But for those reading this (including Amo) that aren’t familiar with my viewpoint, we are expecting a third physical return of Christ in our own future that will include the final bodily resurrection event for us.

(And I’m still waiting after these many years for someone to prove scripture teaches anything against this third bodily resurrection event.)
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: Rella on Wed Feb 17, 2021 - 08:59:58
Hi Rella,

Hi right back at you 3R.

It has been a while and I did not want to interject myself in the mix between you and Amo but alas, here I am.


The term you are using in your examples is the Greek “engus” word meaning “near” or “presently at hand”.  That word and it’s uses is a fascinating study in itself, but is NOT the word I am focusing on right now in the YLT version I used for just one example.  And I don’t agree with you that the YLT version is not a “commonly known” version that I cited. 

You  walk into the next church you see on a Sunday morning ( bar Covid restrictions) and ask the parishioners how many know much about Youngs Literal Translation, or if they have even heard of it... Then we can discuss the commonly known of it. (In fact. It might benefit all of us to have a thread with a discussion of the various translations and how they came to be ... and when)

We know that YLT came about in originally in 1862. We also know that Young used the Textus Receptus and the Masoretic Text  as the basis for his translation.

We also know that  He wrote in the preface to this first edition, "It has been no part of the Translator's plan to attempt to form a New Hebrew or Greek Text—he has therefore somewhat rigidly adhered to the received ones."

As the basis for "his" translation .... he has therefore somewhat rigidly adhered to the received ones.

This is part of the issue I have with "translations. Receiving a translation no way "guarantees" the accuracy.

Young produced a "Revised Version" of his translation in 1887, but he stuck with the Received Text. He wrote in the preface to the Revised Edition, "The Greek Text followed is that generally recognized as the 'Received Text,' not because it is thought perfect, but because the department of Translation is quite distinct from that of textual criticism, and few are qualified for both

I repeat: This is part of the issue I have with "translations. Receiving a translation no way "guarantees" the accuracy. And even Young himself said "not because it is thought perfect, but because the department of Translation is quite distinct from that of textual criticism,"

Being distinct from textual criticism does NOT in and of itself make it necessarily accurate. The Young quotes ocame from Wiki as I was checking on the dates...


Instead of “engus”, I’m looking particularly at the Greek “mello” term and its derivatives, as used in Rev. 17:8 about the Scarlet Beast’s IMMINENT DESTRUCTION back then, (and also notably in Luke 21:36 concerning Christ’s first-century return and the IMMINENT events that were about to occur just prior to that return). 



NKJV Rev 17

8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to  perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and [e]yet is.

(There is not one single word in this prophetic verse that says imminent. The very first sentence says will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. Not immediately. Not imminently. But WILL)

Interlinear Rev 17

The beast which you saw was, and not is, and is about to come up out of the abyss, and into ruin to go.

(Important. NO mention of imminence of when the beast will go into ruin.)

And will marvel those dwelling on the earth, of whom not having been written the names in the book of the life from foundation of the world, seeing the beast which one was, and not is, although it is.

YLT Rev 17

 8 `The beast that thou didst see: it was, and it is not; and it is about to come up out of the abyss, and to go away to destruction, and wonder shall those dwelling upon the earth, whose names have not been written upon the scroll of the life from the foundation of the world, beholding the beast that was, and is not, although it is.

("is about to come up out of the abyss, and to go away to destruction,"  IT  DOES NOT SAY IMMINENTLY, that is an error of assumption.)


This “mello” term and its variants are used all over the place in the New Testament.  In each context, it refers to events that were going to take place in the immediate future - certainly NOT delayed for 2,000 years and counting.  Just one example in Luke 9:31 being the Mount of Transfiguration, when Moses and Elijah were speaking with Christ of His death that He was “ABOUT TO ACCOMPLISH” at Jerusalem.  Certainly an imminent event at that point.

Really? I say WRONG. If you consider that translators have assigned different meanings to the word mello.

Strongs, for example:

Strong's Concordance
melló: to be about to

Original Word: μέλλω

Part of Speech: Verb

Transliteration: melló

Phonetic Spelling: (mel'-lo)

Definition: to be about to

Usage: I intend, am about to; I delay, linger.

IMPORTANT NOTE: While Strongs does define melló as to be about to  under usage especially note I intend, I delay, linger
Which certainly offering a counter to the imminence of to be about to.

OR

NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
a prim. verb

Definition
to be about to

NASB Translation

about (30), almost (1), am about (2), certainly (1), come (12), delay (1), future (1), going (19), intend (1), intending (8), later (1), must (1), next* (1), point (1), propose (1), ready (1), things to come (3), will (6), will certainly (1), would (3), would live...thereafter (1), would certainly (1).


Just one example in Luke 9:31 being the Mount of Transfiguration, when Moses and Elijah were speaking with Christ of His death that He was “ABOUT TO ACCOMPLISH” at Jerusalem.  Certainly an imminent event at that point.

Not necessarily if you are willing  to consider Strong's "I intend" or most of the translation suggestions in NASB.

There are other translation links but these two offer the most concise.


“ABOUT TO COME TO PASS” back then was the ONLY return of Christ that scripture reveals to us.  But for those reading this (including Amo) that aren’t familiar with my viewpoint, we are expecting a third physical return of Christ in our own future that will include the final bodily resurrection event for us.[/color]
[/color]



Rella, you already know, I think, that I don’t believe that this first-century return of Christ that was “ABOUT TO COME TO PASS” back then was the ONLY return of Christ that scripture reveals to us.  But for those reading this (including Amo) that aren’t familiar with my viewpoint, we are expecting a third physical return of Christ in our own future that will include the final bodily resurrection event for us.

3R, LOL... you have a view of things that I have not encountered with anyone else..  (Not even the forum I was reading on Preterism, during the time I thought I had been booted from here.) Your view of things goes as far to the outskirts of when God  will make and end as mine on the other end of things, the beginning.

(And I’m still waiting after these many years for someone to prove scripture teaches anything against this third bodily resurrection event.)


Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: Cobalt1959 on Sat Feb 27, 2021 - 03:11:21
Quote
Hey Amo...not much time, since I have work orders on the table needing attention...

Did you ever consider that God has DELIBERATELY allowed this prevalence of Catholic influence as a JUDGMENT on the world at large?  A world that has elevated child sacrifice of the unborn to a sacred right?

Think about it.  Catholicism has predominantly been openly opposed to abortion at any stage.  This is actually an echo of God’s mind on the matter.  Since the nations of this world by supporting abortion have rejected this original commandment in the Garden of Eden to “be fruitful and multiply”, why would God not allow the influence of the Catholic Church to prevail, if only to discourage the murder of the unborn?

Ummm, and it was NOT the 666-year old Rev. 13 Sea Beast that was to be resurrected; it was the Rev. 17 Scarlet Beast found in the wilderness instead that had a fluctuating existence of “WAS”, then “IS NOT”, “IS”, and “ABOUT TO ARISE”.  This Scarlet Beast is the one that John said was about to go into destruction in HIS days, after it would briefly arise to existence in John’s near future.  You are confusing the 3 Beasts mentioned in Revelation.  They all have differing features and biographies distinct from each other.  This is a common mistake made, so you are by no means alone in your viewpoint.

Ah, preterism.  The gift that keeps on giving.  Like an ugly poison oak rash.

I don't step up for Amo very often, and he and I have had some bitter disagreements over the years, but on this issue, he's got your number.  He has addressed the points you bring up, one by one.  Every time.  But you don't really address them, you change tacks, and then you go off in another direction.  In some cases as with interchanging Rome and Jerusalem you change your position because you get painted into a corner.  And when your doctrine doesn't have a sound biblical foundation, that is when you are forced to back up and punt.

The notion of preterism is so stupid and patently false that I am constantly amazed that anyone would buy into it.  But if Hank Hanegraaff will be swayed by it, to some people it must act like doctrinal crack.  He got so off-track, biblically, that he converted to a Greek Orthodox.  R. C. Sproul was once a sound biblical teacher, but the preterism drug snagged him too.  It seems to be one hell of a doctrinal drug.

The notion of preterism was unknown to the first century church.  As Amo has rightly and consistently pointed out the first century church never taught that Jesus had come back in their time.  This is not possible since the Bible clearly proclaims that when Jesus returns, every eye will see him.  That has never happened yet.  Preterism wasn't born in it's present form until the 19th century.  The notion that Satan is no longer at work in the world is patently stupid as well, and this is the one main point that every preterist uses that  puzzles me.  Because Satan is obviously in direct control of a great many people and groups in this world today, but preterists constantly say he's chained at this time.  No, he certainly is not.  But you would have to claim he is, to make your doctrine work.

2 Peter 3:3-9  3 First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires.  4 They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation."  5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water.  6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed.  7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.  8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.  9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Peter directly says scoffers will come because they are tired of waiting for Jesus to come back, because it's taking Him too long.  Because they think in human terms.  Peter obviously was not expecting Jesus to return in his lifetime, and the entire premise of the verse shows us that the term "last days" would be far down the road of time from when Peter was writing.  In spiritual terms, we know that the concept of Jesus' return had immanency as soon as He rose to Heaven.  But unless every single biblical prophecy has been fulfilled, literally and in physically testable ways, the event hasn't happened yet.  Jesus has not returned.  Satan is still not chained.  There has not been a time yet worse than the world has ever seen before.  As with most false doctrines established in the 1800's, presterism has one goal, specifically:  Replace Israel with the Church.  Preterism is just another loathsome and insidious form of Replacement Theology.

Good Luck with that.  Your Dollar Tree preterism is going to cause you some problems when it comes time to give an account . . .
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Sat Feb 27, 2021 - 09:05:34
Hi Cobalt1959,

I see a lot of personal attack and insults, but not much scriptural substance.  When you have to resort to vitriol to defend your position, your credibility is reduced.  After all, we are both children of the same Father, you know.  Personally, I don’t want to write anything here on earth that I would need to apologize for in heaven when you and I finally meet.

As for “not addressing” Amo’s points, it would take more time than I possess to address every single point he mentions in his very long comments, so I have to be selective when I tap out text responses on my cell phone.  I’m not retired yet, and there are a hundred things on my plate at the moment.

I’ll try to cover your reply’s objections, but I might not have time to get them all.

#1 - “interchanging Rome and Jerusalem”
No, I’m not doing this.  Those two different 7-hilled cities are treated separately in Rev. 13 (the Roman phase of the Sea Beast), and in Rev. 17 (the Judean Scarlet Beast in the wilderness).  These two Beasts (of the three Beasts in Revelation) have different biographies, different fates, different activities, and different features.  I’ve already discussed these differences at length in this link:  http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/preterist-forum/the-sea-beast-the-land-beast-and-the-scarlet-beast/

#2 - “Preterism was unknown to the first-century church”  Not so.  Paul and Peter and James and Jude and Matthew and Luke and Mark and John - and Christ - all of them taught about Christ’s IMMINENT return in those last days of the first century, and the tribulations, earthly calamities, and deceptions that would immediately precede that return. 

Just one example from Christ in Luke 21:36 (YLT).  “Watch ye, then, in every season, praying that ye may be accounted worthy to escape ALL these things that are ABOUT TO COME TO PASS,” (“mellonta ginesthai” - in THEIR first-century days) “and to stand before the Son of Man.” 

Jesus had just given a list of the particular signs and events for the disciples to recognize which would immediately precede His return.  ALL of these things in the verses  from Luke 21:7-35 were “ABOUT TO COME TO PASS” - bar none.  The disciples understood this, because they had just asked Christ in verse 7, “Teacher, when, then, shall these things be?  and what is the sign when these things may be ABOUT TO HAPPEN?” (“melle ginesthai”).

#3 - “The first century church never taught that Christ had come back in their time.”  Neither you nor anyone else can prove that conclusively.  What you CAN say conclusively is that we have yet to uncover writings about this, dated post AD 70.  Archeological digs continue to uncover evidence proving truths of scriptural content even today.  And I maintain that there are landslide rubble layers on the slopes of the Mount of Olives today that prove Zechariah 14:4-5’s return of Christ happened exactly where and exactly when He said He would return.  You have to read this in the LXX to catch the true import of Zechariah 14:4-5’s prophecy of the earthquake landslide rubble that would block up the Kidron valley as far as Azal.

#4 - “Every eye will see His return”.  This is impossible to mean that every eye on the globe would simultaneously see Christ’s local, physical return to the Mount of Olives on the east of Jerusalem.  Scripture context specifically LIMITS this viewing of Him returning particularly to “those who pierced Him”.  That was those who were besieged and confined in AD 70 Jerusalem that viewed His return.  I’ve also discussed this point at length in this link:   http://gracecentered.com/christian_forums/end-times-forum/'-and-every-eye-shall-see-him'-how-scripture-defines-'every-eye'/

#5 - “Preterists constantly say that Satan is chained at this time.”  Here, I would halfway agree with you that Satan is NOT chained at this time.  But that’s only because Satan and the demonic realm was already DESTROYED by the close of AD 70 - NOT chained up back then.  Neither Satan nor his minions are in existence anymore today. 

Any and all evil occurring today needs no instigation by the Satanic realm. The “children of the devil” (as Christ once called the Pharisees) are today only copying their dead father Satan’s activity.  “The lusts of their father they will do.”  They don’t need Satan’s continuing existence to author their wickedness.  Humanity in its unregenerate form is perfectly capable of coming up with evil on its own volition.  I listed scripture proof of this in this link: http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/preterist-forum/deception/

#6 - “Peter was obviously not expecting Jesus to return in his lifetime.”  Ummm, yes, he was.  Peter AGREED with Paul’s epistles teaching about the timing and events surrounding the return of Christ ( II Peter 3:15-17).  So everything Paul taught in his epistles about the soon-coming “resurrection that is ABOUT TO BE of the just and the unjust” at Christ’s bodily return, Peter agreed with this.  Moreover, in I Peter 4:7, Peter said that “the END of all things is AT HAND.”  This means “presently near” in THAT time when Peter was writing (around AD 65, just before Peter’s martyrdom).  Therefore, this “end of all things” couldn’t possibly be “far down the road” from Peter’s days, as you are proposing.

#7 - “There has not been a time yet worse than the world had ever seen before.”  One mistake here.  Jesus never said this tribulation would be “worse” or “greater” than ever had been or ever would be afterward.  That implies a LEVEL of tribulation, which was not Jesus’s intended meaning.  He said there would not be any “SUCH” tribulation like it.  This means A TYPE or A KIND of tribulation unlike any other before or after that time. 

That truly came to pass in AD 66-70 Jerusalem, since no city had ever before had “every unclean spirit”  IMPRISONED within its walls, as Rev. 18:2 and Isaiah 24:21-23 said would happen to Jerusalem.  And since Satan and his demonic realm has entirely been destroyed since the closing days of AD 70 (as Romans 16:20 said would “shortly” happen after that time in AD 60), this is a TYPE of tribulation that can never be duplicated again in the world.  Thank God.  Human evil is bad enough as it is.

#8 - “Preterism has one goal specifically: Replace Israel with the church.”  No, that’s not the goal.  The goal of Preterism is to remain true to the imminent, time-relevant language used by every New Testament writer and speaker.  This language of imminence uses many varied terms, in both English and Greek, and is quite clear for even the youngest Christian to understand that those events would SOON transpire in the first century.

Last of your objections, Preterists believe in a *REMNANT* THEOLOGY - not a “replacement theology”.  God has ALWAYS preserved a faithful remnant that belonged to Him among the ethnic people of Israel.   These combined with the “children of faithful Abraham” among all the nations of the world since creation are combined to make up the true “ISRAEL OF GOD” - the “one fold” that Jesus spoke of.   This was the “mystery” that was hid from many ages, but was openly revealed by the Apostle Paul in Colossians 1 and Ephesians 3:3-6. 

I appreciate your concern, Cobalt1959, about the “account” that I will be giving at the final  judgment about these matters.  I have been a believer for about about 48 years, but I assure you that I have never felt such confidence and peace that Preteristic views have instilled in me since I first started studying it as found in scripture 8 years ago.  Christ feels nearer to me now than He ever did before.  I don’t mind being considered a fool by others, as long as He does not consider me to be one.

“To my own master I stand or fall”, as Paul would say.
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: Rella on Sat Feb 27, 2021 - 11:15:45
Ah, preterism.  The gift that keeps on giving.  Like an ugly poison oak rash.

I don't step up for Amo very often, and he and I have had some bitter disagreements over the years, but on this issue, he's got your number.  He has addressed the points you bring up, one by one.  Every time.  But you don't really address them, you change tacks, and then you go off in another direction.  In some cases as with interchanging Rome and Jerusalem you change your position because you get painted into a corner.  And when your doctrine doesn't have a sound biblical foundation, that is when you are forced to back up and punt.

The notion of preterism is so stupid and patently false that I am constantly amazed that anyone would buy into it.  But if Hank Hanegraaff will be swayed by it, to some people it must act like doctrinal crack.  He got so off-track, biblically, that he converted to a Greek Orthodox.  R. C. Sproul was once a sound biblical teacher, but the preterism drug snagged him too.  It seems to be one hell of a doctrinal drug.

The notion of preterism was unknown to the first century church.  As Amo has rightly and consistently pointed out the first century church never taught that Jesus had come back in their time.  This is not possible since the Bible clearly proclaims that when Jesus returns, every eye will see him.  That has never happened yet.  Preterism wasn't born in it's present form until the 19th century.  The notion that Satan is no longer at work in the world is patently stupid as well, and this is the one main point that every preterist uses that  puzzles me.  Because Satan is obviously in direct control of a great many people and groups in this world today, but preterists constantly say he's chained at this time.  No, he certainly is not.  But you would have to claim he is, to make your doctrine work.

2 Peter 3:3-9  3 First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires.  4 They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation."  5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water.  6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed.  7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.  8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.  9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Peter directly says scoffers will come because they are tired of waiting for Jesus to come back, because it's taking Him too long.  Because they think in human terms.  Peter obviously was not expecting Jesus to return in his lifetime, and the entire premise of the verse shows us that the term "last days" would be far down the road of time from when Peter was writing.  In spiritual terms, we know that the concept of Jesus' return had immanency as soon as He rose to Heaven.  But unless every single biblical prophecy has been fulfilled, literally and in physically testable ways, the event hasn't happened yet.  Jesus has not returned.  Satan is still not chained.  There has not been a time yet worse than the world has ever seen before.  As with most false doctrines established in the 1800's, presterism has one goal, specifically:  Replace Israel with the Church.  Preterism is just another loathsome and insidious form of Replacement Theology.

Good Luck with that.  Your Dollar Tree preterism is going to cause you some problems when it comes time to give an account . . .

 ::tippinghat::
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: Rella on Sat Feb 27, 2021 - 11:45:16



 


#4 - “Every eye will see His return”.  This is impossible to mean that every eye on the globe would simultaneously see Christ’s local, physical return to the Mount of Olives on the east of Jerusalem.  Scripture context specifically LIMITS this viewing of Him returning particularly to “those who pierced Him”.  That was those who were besieged and confined in AD 70 Jerusalem that viewed His return.  I’ve also discussed this point at length in this link:   [url]http://gracecentered.com/christian_forums/end-times-forum/'-and-every-eye-shall-see-him'-how-scripture-defines-'every-eye'/[/url]






No, I did not go back to read your link.

“Every eye will see His return”.  This is impossible to mean that every eye on the globe would simultaneously see Christ’s local, physical return to the Mount of Olives on the east of Jerusalem."

Wrong.

Why? Yes, it is true in 70 AD that not every eye on the globe could have seen him, but that is not true today.

Beyond the invention of the wireless television, wireless radio, and wireless telephone.. And beyond the invention of the wireless "cell" phone with it's immediate access by text anywhere, as well as video calls the invention of satellites makes it possible to see and hear whatever in the same instant and that mean only in the past century was possible fulfillment of Rev 1:7 and that means with the possibility, it will happen.
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: Amo on Sat Feb 27, 2021 - 11:57:21
https://israelmyglory.org/article/a-history-of-preterism/

Quoted article below from link above.

Quote
A History of Preterism

When did the preterist interpretation first arise in church history? This question poses a big problem for preterists. If the Olivet Discourse and the book of Revelation were fulfilled in the first century, why is there no evidence in the early church writings that the church understood things in this way?

There is zero indication from known, extant writings that anyone understood these teachings in this way. No early church writings teach that Jesus returned in the first century.

Not until the post-Reformation period did Preterism begin to show up on the church’s radar. The first clear preterist was Spanish-Catholic Jesuit Luis Alcazar (1554–1613) in his Investigation of the Hidden Sense of the Apocalypse.1 Hugo Grotius (1583–1645) of Holland was “the first Protestant recruit to Preterism.”2 Grotius was “extremely liberal in his religious views” and took a critical approach, called “the historical-philological method,” to interpreting Scripture.3 Grotius was ecumenical in spirit.

He expressed a desire for the unity of the church and was willing to make such extensive concessions to restore union with Rome that he was accused of converting to Roman Catholicism. The reason for his irenic approach was his desire as a Christian and a statesman to bring peace and unity to a world torn by religious wars.4
Henry Hammond (1605–1660) is called the “Father of English Biblical Criticism”5 and first taught Preterism in his Paraphrase and Annotations Upon all the Books of the New Testament (1653). “This volume,” noted David Brady, “contained a brave but lonely attempt to introduce the preterist interpretation of the Book of Revelation to English soil.”6 He followed Grotius closely and “acknowledged his indebtedness in this matter” to him.7

The preterist interpretation rarely appeared in Protestant scholarship until the 1800s. It gained a wide following among German liberals who did not believe the Bible contained predictive prophecy. In the late 18th century, J. G. Eichhorn (1752–1827) introduced a version of Alcazar’s Preterism in 1791 to the liberal German rationalists. Wrote LeRoy Froom: “Soon he was joined by other rationalist scholars, such as G. H A. Ewald (1803–1875), G. C. F. Lucke (1791–1855), W. M. L. De Wette (1780–1849), Franz Delitzsch (1813–1890), and Julius Wellhausen (1844–1918).”8

Nineteenth-century British scholar E. B. Elliott called Preterism “the German Praeterist School that was about this time rising more and more into notice and influence: a School characterized by considerable mental acuteness, research, and philological learning; and at the same time by much of the hardihood and rashness of religious skepticism.”9 Nevertheless, the interpretive outcomes of this liberal school are the ones evangelical preterists primarily follow today.

The father of American Preterism is clearly Moses Stuart (1780–1852) of Andover Seminary who “introduced Preterism into the United States about 1842.”10 Dr. Stuart’s commentary on the Apocalypse was a two-volume work that taught the milder form of Preterism that prophesied the defeat of God’s two ancient “enemies”: Israel and the Roman Empire.11 Enoch Pond said of Dr. Stuart’s commentary on Revelation that it was “borrowed mostly from the Germans.”12

Around the 1970s Preterism began its current rise in American evangelicalism. Before its recent upswing, contemporary forms of Preterism tended to be found only within academic circles, providing an occasional commentary here and there. The preterist rise to more popular visibility likely began simultaneously within the ranks of the Churches of Christ and, as it received renewed attention, within the Reformed tradition by the publishing of Jay Adams’s The Time Is at Hand (1966)13 and J. Marcellus Kik’s An Eschatology of Victory (1971).14

However, the most significant impetus to the current rise of Preterism has to be its widespread adoption and propagation by those within the Christian Reconstruction movement.15 Reconstructionist attraction to Preterism appears to have been adopted by the late Dr. Greg Bahnsen and spread through him to many of his disciples who, in turn, propagated it to others like R. C. Sproul.
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Sat Feb 27, 2021 - 14:48:51
Hi Rella,

It is immaterial what developments have been made in these days that enable most of humanity to view events livestream.  None of that matters, simply because no one since that first century generation has the actual blood guilt of crucifying Christ.  “They which pierced Him” incurred a blood curse that the high priests called down on themselves and their own children of THAT generation.  Remember?  They told Pilate, “His blood be on US AND OUR CHILDREN.”  The “days of vengeance” fell on THAT generation - and THAT generation with its children was the one held captive in Jerusalem and saw Christ return to the Mount of Olives with their own eyes. 

Since then, nobody today - not even ethnic Jews - has that same blood curse applied to them.  That crime was paid for by THAT generation up “to the last mite”, as Christ predicted.  Once vengeance was passed on THAT generation for that ultimate crime of “killing the Prince of Life” (Acts 3:15), that vengeance did NOT pass on to the rest of humanity afterwards.  Therefore, “They which pierced Him” is a very specific audience which would actually see Christ’s bodily, local return to the Mount of Olives, as prophesied.

Here is the verse that proves that old law of blood-guilt.  Numbers 35:33, “So ye shall not pollute the land wherein ye are: for blood it defileth the land: and THE LAND CANNOT BE CLEANSED OF THE BLOOD THAT IS SHED THEREIN BUT *BY THE BLOOD OF HIM THAT SHED IT*.”  It was THAT generation that was the “betrayers and murderers” of Christ, and therefore it HAD to be THAT generation which paid for the blood of Christ that they shed in the land of Israel.

For Amo, the extended quote you gave is incorrect that somehow Preterism is a sort of “new kid on the block”.  I know you yourself are probably not interested in pursuing the evidence, but others perhaps might be interested in checking out early proponents of Preterist-type views, long before it became known by that term.  Check out the website preteristarchives.org which has recently come back online, and also a book written by Francis X. Gumerlock called “Revelation and the First Century (Preterist Interpretations of the Apocalypse in Early Christianity)”.  A self-explanatory title of a book that contradicts your quote, Amo, if only you had the courage to read it.

Frankly, to me it is a matter of indifference how many people from earlier centuries held to Preterist views.  After all, the church of the first century post AD 70 had been battered almost out of existence with persecutions and even rank deception and heresies in their numbers.  The saints were “worn out” by the little horn waging war against them in those years approaching AD 70.  God designed it that way, just to maximize the number of saints that would die and then be able to participate in the AD 70 resurrection shortly thereafter.

The descendants of the first century church body that had most of its leadership martyred or scattered to flee for their lives was not going to be the most educated and well-informed on doctrinal matters.  It does not surprise me that errors in doctrine developed soon after, or that Preterist truths may have taken a place on the back burner, so to speak.

The growth of Preterist teaching today (flawed though some of it may be) I believe is due to Christ’s many promises of the growth of His kingdom in this world.  Like leaven in the bread dough parable, I believe Preterist views will continue to be further refined and will quietly increase and spread among those believers seeking for solid answers to eschatology.  Time will tell, and truth will out.
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: Rella on Sat Feb 27, 2021 - 19:57:46
Hi Rella,

It is immaterial what developments have been made in these days that enable most of humanity to view events livestream.  None of that matters, simply because no one since that first century generation has the actual blood guilt of crucifying Christ.  “They which pierced Him” incurred a blood curse that the high priests called down on themselves and their own children of THAT generation.  Remember?  They told Pilate, “His blood be on US AND OUR CHILDREN.”  The “days of vengeance” fell on THAT generation - and THAT generation with its children was the one held captive in Jerusalem and saw Christ return to the Mount of Olives with their own eyes. 

Since then, nobody today - not even ethnic Jews - has that same blood curse applied to them.  That crime was paid for by THAT generation up “to the last mite”, as Christ predicted.  Once vengeance was passed on THAT generation for that ultimate crime of “killing the Prince of Life” (Acts 3:15), that vengeance did NOT pass on to the rest of humanity afterwards.  Therefore, “They which pierced Him” is a very specific audience which would actually see Christ’s bodily, local return to the Mount of Olives, as prophesied.

Here is the verse that proves that old law of blood-guilt.  Numbers 35:33, “So ye shall not pollute the land wherein ye are: for blood it defileth the land: and THE LAND CANNOT BE CLEANSED OF THE BLOOD THAT IS SHED THEREIN BUT *BY THE BLOOD OF HIM THAT SHED IT*.”  It was THAT generation that was the “betrayers and murderers” of Christ, and therefore it HAD to be THAT generation which paid for the blood of Christ that they shed in the land of Israel.

 

 ::doh:: 

First. You simply cannot just ignore a verse because you cannot make it fit into your
arrangement of the pieces.

Rev 1:7 specifically says Interlinear....

See, he comes with the clouds, and shall see him every eye, and those who him pierced, and will wail because of him all the tribes of the earth, yes. Amen

You cannot show in any writing from any time where ALL witnessed Jesus having come with the clouds, simply because it did not happen.... yet.

And you are missing the most important verses of all.

Rev 18-19 Interlinear

18. For I testify to everyone hearing the words of the prophesy of the book this, if anyone should put to these words of the prophesy of the book this , will put the God upon him the plagues , those having been written in book this.

19. And if anyone takes away from the words of the book of the prophesy this,
will take away the God the part of him from book of the life, and out of the city the holy, and out of the things having been written in book this.

You cannot ignore ALL. You cannot spin this into regionally because by doing that you ignore ALL.
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Sat Feb 27, 2021 - 22:41:11
I’m not ignoring the word “ALL” in this Rev. 1:7 verse, Rella.  That’s ALL of the 12 tribes of THE LAND OF ISRAEL that witnessed Jesus’s return in AD 70.  “The tribes of THE EARTH” phrase uses the “tes ges” Greek term, which is predominantly referring to the land of Israel specifically all throughout scripture.  For one example in Luke 21:23, Christ said there was going to be “great distress in THE LAND (tes ges) and wrath upon THIS PEOPLE” (referring to the Jews in the land of Israel specifically who would suffer this great distress).

You’re wanting “tribes of the earth” to refer to all the peoples and nations of the entire globe, but that’s not at all how John’s first-century readers would have interpreted and understood this phrase.  To a Jew especially in those days, with any reference to “the land”, forever and always, it meant only the promised land of  Canaan - the land once promised to father Abraham, and the only land they ever truly cared about.

As a matter of fact, I can’t recall a single verse anywhere in scripture that uses the word “tribes” to refer to anything else but the 12 tribes of Israel...ever.  Can you think of a scripture example where “tribes” is without question used to describe the Gentile nations of the world at large?  Nothing comes to mind.
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: Cobalt1959 on Sun Feb 28, 2021 - 03:01:21
Quote
Last of your objections, Preterists believe in a *REMNANT* THEOLOGY - not a “replacement theology”.  God has ALWAYS preserved a faithful remnant that belonged to Him among the ethnic people of Israel.   These combined with the “children of faithful Abraham” among all the nations of the world since creation are combined to make up the true “ISRAEL OF GOD” - the “one fold” that Jesus spoke of.   This was the “mystery” that was hid from many ages, but was openly revealed by the Apostle Paul in Colossians 1 and Ephesians 3:3-6.

This is the only portion of your post I am going to deal with because when someone is as dedicated to a false doctrine as you are, there is really no swaying them, but others reading on the board need to see false doctrine directly dealt with.

Romans 11:1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin.  2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don't you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah--how he appealed to God against Israel:  3 "Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me"?  4 And what was God's answer to him? "I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal."  5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.  6 And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.  7 What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened,  8 as it is written: "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes so that they could not see and ears so that they could not hear, to this very day."  9 And David says: "May their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them.  10 May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see, and their backs be bent forever."  11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious.  12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!  13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry

Romans 11:25-26  25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.  6 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.

Romans 16:25-26 25 Now to him who is able to establish you by my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past,  26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all nations might believe and obey him--

There is no "mystery" about the End Times.  The End Times exist for God to fulfill His promises to the nation of Israel.  Period.  If you believe anything, other than that, and try and wedge the Church in there, or some other remnant in there that does not belong, then you are teaching Replacement Theology.  You can re-label it as something else so it does not sound so odious, and heretical but it is still Replacement Theology.  If you have to re-brand it to make it sound palatable to other people, you've got a problem.

Paul's mystery revealed was twofold.  The Church, and that Jesus had brought salvation to the Gentiles as well as the Jews.  Even so, the Church is grafted in.  It is not the root.  So you can word it however you want, but if your eschatology does not focus on the restoration of Israel at the end, and Israel alone, then you are teaching another gospel.   Others will be saved besides Israel during this time, but the entire focus of Daniel and Revelation is the restoration of Israel and their repentance.  If you are teaching anything else, you're teaching Replacement Theology.

I will also add that if this is the Millennial Kingdom, which it has to be in your doctrine, it has to be the biggest Epic Fail in history.  It doesn't match the ad in the paper, and it seems your God can't do any better than what we had before Jesus supposedly came back. 
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: RB on Sun Feb 28, 2021 - 05:03:01
I’m not ignoring the word “ALL” in this Rev. 1:7 verse, Rella.  That’s ALL of the 12 tribes of THE LAND OF ISRAEL that witnessed Jesus’s return in AD 70. “The tribes of THE EARTH” phrase uses the “tes ges” Greek term, which is predominantly referring to the land of Israel specifically all throughout scripture.  For one example in Luke 21:23, Christ said there was going to be “great distress in THE LAND (tes ges) and wrath upon THIS PEOPLE” (referring to the Jews in the land of Israel specifically who would suffer this great distress).

You’re wanting “tribes of the earth” to refer to all the peoples and nations of the entire globe, but that’s not at all how John’s first-century readers would have interpreted and understood this phrase. 
3 Resurrections it is you that's playing around with the word of God in this case~and truly downright corrupting God's word! You should be ashamed of yourself.
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
Matthew 24:30,31~"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Who are the TRUE (elect) Israel of God and the twelve tribes of Israel under the New Covenant? Jews and Gentiles, or Judah and Israel from the writings of the prophets beginning with David in the Psalms and ending with the prophets Zachariah and Malachi.
Quote from: Paul
Romans 2:28,29~"For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
There's more:
Quote from: James the brother of Jude
James 1:1~"James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting."
We KNOW this has to be spoken of the SPIRITUAL TRIBES of Israel, for NOWHERE in NEW TESTAMENT does the Spirit of God ever separate natural born again Jews from born again Gentiles, they both are ONE in the religion of Jesus Christ~to prove this consider:
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
Revelation seven~"And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand. After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
These TRIBES of Israel are spiritual Jews from EVERY tribe on this earth~the 144,000 is the completeness or fullness of the Israel of God whom God said was the twelve tribes of Israel~so, this tells me that God has placed his elect into tribes and will distribute them accordingly in the NEW EARTH. Israel of old was given the "seven countries" of the land promised to Abraham~he will give to Jesus Christ and his elect the seven continents of this present earth.~and he will break us down into TRIBES according to Revelation seven.
Quote from: 3 Resurrections on: Yesterday at 22:41:11
You’re wanting “tribes of the earth” to refer to all the peoples and nations of the entire globe, but that’s not at all how John’s first-century readers would have interpreted and understood this phrase.  To a Jew especially in those days, with any reference to “the land”, forever and always, it meant only the promised land of  Canaan - the land once promised to father Abraham, and the only land they ever truly cared about.
You are wrong my friend:
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
Hebrews 11:8-10~"By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God."
Abraham KNEW that the PROMISED LAND was NOT the middle east but a NEW EARTH and heaven wherein dwelleth RIGHTEOUSNESS and where Jesus Christ shall reign as King, God blessed forever. 
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Sun Feb 28, 2021 - 07:01:51
Morning RB,

You are REALLY confused about the 144,000 from the tribes of Israel.  That is NOT spiritual tribes bring spoken of there.  It’s literal, ethnic members of the tribes coming from Jacob’s family members.  And you continue for these many years to confuse the 144,000 First-fruits raised along with Christ from Jewish graves around Jerusalem (in Matthew 27:52-53) with the other great UNNUMBERED group that John saw “AFTER THAT” first group of NUMBERED 144,000.  In contrast with the 144,000 from ethnic Israelite tribes alone, the unnumbered group came from ALL PEOPLES, tongues, and nations.  They are NOT the same group in view.

In God’s “New Man” creation, there is no tribal division whatever between the children of God.  It’s a “ONE FOLD” situation with “One Shepherd” for all within it. 

And you continue to mistake the “four corners of the earth” as applying to the globe at large.  It doesn’t in scripture.  The “four corners of the earth” (tes ges) applied specifically to the dimensions of the land of Israel, as given by God, (as He promised), to the ethnic 12 tribes of Israel (with certain conditions of obedience for keeping it).  Read Ezekiel 7:2.  “Also Thou son of man, thus saith the Lord God unto THE LAND OF ISRAEL: an end, the end is come upon the FOUR CORNERS OF THE LAND.  Now is the end come upon thee...”

Those members of the 12 tribes of Israel would be mourning in Jerusalem as they witnessed Christ gathering all His elect from the ENTIRE WORLD - from the four winds of HEAVEN - which is in contrast to just the four corners of the EARTH: i.e., the land of Israel alone.  The 12 tribes saw all these elect from all the nations resurrected and entering the kingdom of heaven, with themselves shut out in the close of AD 70 at the resurrection.

They thought that since Jesus had eaten and drunk in their presence and taught in their own streets of Israel that they had a right to expect automatic admittance to the kingdom.  Their disappointed expectations caused them to weep and gnash their teeth.  This was an AD 70 resurrection for all the elect (the great unnumbered multitude) up to that date.

This Rev. 1:7 phrase “all the tribes of the earth” does not exist in a vacuum; it is almost an exact duplicate of the Zechariah 12:10 prophecy which very specifically names several “tribes” or families of ethnic Israel (phulai), and refers to “ALL the tribes” (phulai) of Israel mourning in separation from each other in Jerusalem during its prophesied siege and AD 70 destruction.  This is NOT any so-called “spiritual” tribes under discussion in either Zechariah or Revelation, RB.

Remember, in the New Jerusalem of Rev. 21:14, it is NOT the 12 tribes of Israel that form its foundations.  They are only pictured in the 12 gates.  Instead of tribes, “the wall of the city had 12 FOUNDATIONS, and in them THE NAMES OF THE TWELVE APOSTLES OF THE LAMB”.  All of them built upon Christ the “chief cornerstone”, of course.  We in the current New Jerusalem of the New Covenant hark back to our foundations of the 12 APOSTLES who taught Christ’s doctrine. 

Revelation was written in a time when the 12 tribal distinctions, as part of the old covenant, had already decayed in death and were “ready to vanish away” at that time.  Revelation is more or less a post-mortem description of the funeral and burial for all the old covenant trappings, and the triumphant manifestation of the lone, unshaken New Covenant /New Jerusalem we are currently in today, (which Christ had already set up at His crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension). 

In this New Covenant/ New Jerusalem / New Heavens and New Earth that the saints currently occupy, there is no more distinction between the “land of Israel” and “the sea”, which used to represent all the Gentile nations.  Since AD 70, there currently is “no more sea”.  ALL the world is considered to be “THE LAND” now for the “Israel of God”; no more tribal distinctions at all, or separation from Gentile nations.  This concept overlaps your view, RB, so it isn’t totally alien to the points you are making.
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: RB on Sun Feb 28, 2021 - 08:46:22
I will post to you later today, or tomorrow~I do not believe I'm that far off~so I will break down Revelation 7 and look at it to the best of my ability, which I'm sure will always need some correction, that's part of living in this body of sin and death. RB
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: Amo on Sun Feb 28, 2021 - 08:53:52
Quote
Paul's mystery revealed was twofold.  The Church, and that Jesus had brought salvation to the Gentiles as well as the Jews.  Even so, the Church is grafted in.  It is not the root.  So you can word it however you want, but if your eschatology does not focus on the restoration of Israel at the end, and Israel alone, then you are teaching another gospel.   Others will be saved besides Israel during this time, but the entire focus of Daniel and Revelation is the restoration of Israel and their repentance.  If you are teaching anything else, you're teaching Replacement Theology.


Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. 15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? 16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

According to the above testimony by Paul, the Jews who rejected their Messiah were in fact cast away and are now in need of salvation. They are the branches which have been broken off. God did not spare the natural branches but in fact broke them off because of unbelief. If "they abide not still in unbelief", they can be grafted back in. If the "firstfruit" and the root be holy, then are the branches holy. Christ is the firstfruit, and the root, not Israel. The true Israel of God are those attached to the firstfruit and root which is Christ Jesus. All other branches may be and will be broken off.

Isa 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. 10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious. 11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. 12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

Rom 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: 9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name. 10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people. 11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people. 12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust. 13 Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.

Rev 22:16  I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

1Co 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

There is no Israel apart from our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Israel was and is His vineyard. He is the vine apart from which there are no branches.

Joh 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. 9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. 10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Israel was the vineyard which the Lord planted to reveal Christ to the world. The Jews who accepted their Messiah were the remnant of Israel, the true Israel of God. The Church of Christ is the fruit of their Spirit filled labors. Which is also the Israel of God being attached to the same root. The Jews who rejected their Messiah were branches which have been broken off from the tree or vine because of unbelief. They may be grafted back in if they choose to believe again. Nevertheless, the kingdom of God was taken away from them and given to others producing the fruits thereof.

Isa 5:1 Now will I sing to my wellbeloved a song of my beloved touching his vineyard. My wellbeloved hath a vineyard in a very fruitful hill: 2 And he fenced it, and gathered out the stones thereof, and planted it with the choicest vine, and built a tower in the midst of it, and also made a winepress therein: and he looked that it should bring forth grapes, and it brought forth wild grapes. 3 And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, judge, I pray you, betwixt me and my vineyard. 4 What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes? 5 And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to my vineyard: I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up; and break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down: 6 And I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it. 7 For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah his pleasant plant: and he looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry....................
Isa 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! 21 Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight! 22 Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink: 23 Which justify the wicked for reward, and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him! 24 Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel. 25 Therefore is the anger of the LORD kindled against his people, and he hath stretched forth his hand against them, and hath smitten them: and the hills did tremble, and their carcases were torn in the midst of the streets. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.

Mat 21:33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country: 34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it. 35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another. 36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise. 37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. 38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. 39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him. 40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? 41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. 42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? 43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. 44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. 45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.

The Israel of God is neither the literal nation of Israel or Jews of the flesh, or any who simply profess to be Christian, but those alone who truly are in Christ Jesus our Lord. The rest are branches either already broken off, or soon to be broken off. All Israel will be saved because true Israel is no longer a literal nation or people of this world, but those alone who are in Christ Jesus whose kingdom was and is not of this world. Those who will not understand this truth, will never correctly understand biblical prophecy, which pertains to the struggles between God's own in Christ on this earth, and the evil one's own of this earth.

Joh 18:36  Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. 4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. 6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. 7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. 8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. 9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. 10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. 11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. 12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. 13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. 14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. 18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

The true Israel and church of God and Christ are not of this world. Biblical prophecy is concerning the struggles between Christ's own, and the false church that is of this world, BABYLON THE GREAT. Which false church rides the beasts or governments of this world, leading them in rebellion against God's word, and rallying them to war against God's people. As we see BABYLON THE GREAT accomplishing today right before our very eyes. She is presently gathering all the world together under her banner unto the final global war and conflict between God's own on this earth in Christ Jesus, and her own who have joined the rebellion of the evil one who has maintained that rebellion on this fallen planet.
The final battle approaches rapidly. So be it, let each side prepare for battle as they do.

Joe 3:9  Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up: 10 Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong. 11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD. 12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about. 13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great. 14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision. 15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining. 16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel. 

Rev 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. 8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. 9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. 13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them. 14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. 17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: RB on Sun Feb 28, 2021 - 09:04:18
Morning RB,

You are REALLY confused about the 144,000 from the tribes of Israel.  That is NOT spiritual tribes bring spoken of there.  It’s literal, ethnic members of the tribes coming from Jacob’s family members

Just ONE quick thought to put you on notice concerning what you said that is highlighted in red.

QUESTION: If what you are saying is true, then answer this question: The four angels that were going to hurt the earth was told to hold on until the servants of God were first sealed.
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
Revelation 7:1-3~"And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
Are the sea, trees literal, OR PEOPLE? The context will guide us in the interpretation~will it not?

You can wait later to answer after I go more in detail, but for now, it must wait.
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Sun Feb 28, 2021 - 14:13:22
Hi Cobalt1959,

You bet God fulfilled His promises to ethnic Israel.  Solomon and Joshua both testified of those kept promises (Joshua 23:14, I Kings 8:56). 

That fulfillment even eventually included His promise to DESTROY THEM as a nation for their apostasy, and to “call His servants by another name”.  In a sense, there truly was “a new name written down in glory” when the “power of the (formerly) holy people was shattered” by the close of AD 70. 

As Isaiah had predicted long before (Is. 10:22-23), though the number of ethnic Israelites would become as the sand of the sea, only a preserved, faithful, elect REMNANT in those first-century days were saved (the case of the “narrow gate” being fulfilled during that limited period).  Because Jesus “came unto His own”, and his own in those days, for the most part, “received him not”. 

That’s why Jesus asked the rhetorical question about His own AD 70 return, “When the Son of Man cometh, shall he find faith in the earth?” (Few ethnic Jews with faith living in the land of Israel at the close of those last days, that is).

And NO, however badly you want to categorize this as a so-called “insidious type of replacement theology”, it’s NOT.  If there was always throughout their history a faithful REMNANT among the ethnic Jewish tribes, that faithful remnant was never replaced.  They were part of the original “root and offspring of David”, which is Christ (a point Amo already brought up in his reply).

Ethnic Israel was never supposed to be an end unto itself which all are to bow down to.  Ethnic Israel was a sort of microcosm representing God’s mercy and utter faithfulness to ALL of His elect throughout time; the stiff-necked, unlovely members of the human race which He would choose to lavish His favor upon and adopt them to become children of God.  You are making an idol of the ethnic nation of Israel, when it is supposed to serve as an illustration of a greater truth.

And though the millennium isn’t a part of this discussion at all (yet!), I’ve made numerous comments before that it was a literal 1,000 years of a physical temple worship system, dated from the laying down of the foundation stone for Solomon’s temple in 968/967 BC until AD 33 when Christ became the true foundation stone of the temple made with “living stones”.


For RB, it’s good that you can recognize that there is a blend of both the symbolic and the literal in Revelation, for example, when speaking of the sea, the earth, and the trees. 

If the mighty angel in Rev. 10:2 is pictured as standing with His RIGHT foot ON THE SEA and his LEFT foot ON THE EARTH, then symbolism comes into play here.  The RIGHT hand side of God indicates righteous preservation, and His LEFT side one of judgment and destruction.  The SEA typically represented Gentile nations, and THE LAND represented Israel.  Ergo, at that point, God intended to preserve something related to the Gentile nations, and to judge and destroy the land of Israel. 

This  same symbolism also crops up in Revelation 12:12, with woe being pronounced to the inhabitants of THE EARTH and the inhabitants of THE SEA.  No human lives in or  inhabits the ocean, so this had to be symbolic for those who inhabited Gentile nations, and those who inhabited the land of Israel.

But “the sea” can also be used in a literal sense as well in Revelation.  Rev. 8:8 is one example of a great burning mountain, as it were being thrown into the sea.  I believe this is speaking of the literal ocean, and is a prophecy of the AD 62/63 eruption of Mount Vesuvius (which was a precursor of the even more violent cataclysm in AD 79 that buried Pompeii and Herculaneum, etc.). 

When Christ prophesied in Luke 21:25, 36 that there was “ABOUT TO BE” turmoil in the world with “the sea and the waves roaring”, He literally meant the ocean would soon be affected by an increase in seismic activity and storms such as the notable one experienced by Paul in AD 60 on his way to Rome in Acts 27.

RB, you avoid history books, but you should really read up on the tsunami wave coming from the Mt. Vesuvius eruption that swamped 300 ships in the Roman Ostia harbor that were carrying Rome’s entire grain supply for the year of AD 62/63.  Rome’s citizens panicked and rioted, making Nero open up the storehouses.  This fulfilled part of Luke 21:25’s “the sea and the waves roaring”, Rev. 8:8’s “mountain burning with fire cast into the sea” that destroyed a third of the ships, and Joel 2:30’s “pillars of smoke” preceding the “great and terrible day of the Lord” (the erupting volcanic clouds of Mt. Vesuvius in AD 62/63 and the Thera caldera eruption in AD 46/47 prior to Christ’s AD 70 return).

Other references to “the sea” in Revelation speak of disasters occurring in the Mediterranean Sea and the Sea of Galilee during the great tribulation years of AD 66-70, but I doubt that you would acknowledge these as being actual historical recorded events.  It’s comforting to me, though, that Christ knew about these in advance and warned the disciples that these events were “about to come to pass” so that they could recognize them when they did happen in their days.
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: Cobalt1959 on Mon Mar 01, 2021 - 02:19:47
Quote
Hi Cobalt1959

In your long-winded diatribe, I see you avoided the Millennial Kingdom question altogether.

If Jesus came back in 70 AD, and all prophecy is fulfilled, where is He, right now?  After His Second Coming, He has to reign on the Earth for prophecy to be fulfilled.  So where is Jesus right now?  Is he helping Bill Johnson with golden angel dust in Redding?  Is He chilling with the Pope at the Vatican?  Does Joel Osteen have Him sequestered in a room at Lakewood?  Or is he trying to put a smile on Russell M. Nelson's face?  Where is He? 
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: RB on Mon Mar 01, 2021 - 03:41:10
If Jesus came back in 70 AD, and all prophecy is fulfilled, where is He, right now?
70 A.D. is not even under consideration in the word of God as an important date in biblical prophecy, no more than the "secret" rapture theory. Both were born in the hearts of men void of the Spirit of God~and some of God's children have believed either one or the other, or both of those false doctrines during their lifetime.
Quote from: Cobalt1959 on: Today at 02:19:47
After His Second Coming, He has to reign on the Earth for prophecy to be fulfilled
Sir, this is not so, at least not on present earth, but will reign in the new earth and heavens after this earth is destroyed by fire and the heavens shall pass away and perish along with those whose heart was IN THIS CORRUPT PRESENT WORLD.
Quote from: THE SPIRIT OF GOD
Isaiah 51:6~"Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished."
Again:
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
Hebrews 1:10-12~"And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail."
The ONLY earth Christ shall reign on will be the NEW EARTH and in the NEW HEAVENS. At the present time he is reigning FAR ABOVE ALL at God's right hand, or the very highest exalted position one can be exalted to. 70 A.D. theory as being important in biblical prophecy is a lie from the pits of hell and all who hold to that doctrine are deceived in that area of biblical truths. Children of God I would NOT question, but deceived they are as far as holding to biblical truths on Christ's coming, etc.
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: RB on Mon Mar 01, 2021 - 04:07:47
For RB, it’s good that you can recognize that there is a blend of both the symbolic and the literal in Revelation, for example, when speaking of the sea, the earth, and the trees.
Greetings 3 Resurrections~actually, I approach all of the scriptures in their literal sense and never approach them in any other manner. Yet, I also understand the importance of CONTEXT, and SENSE in which God has written his word in order for us to STUDY, PRAY, and SEEK for truth as the world does for hidden treasures and TRUST our Father in heaven to reveal His truths to us. You know these scriptures well:
Quote
Nehemiah 8:8~"So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading."
Truth will never be known by anyone who fails to practice such scriptures.
Quote from: Paul
2nd Timothy 2:15~"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."
Noble believers WILL search the scriptures daily to make sure what they are holding is the TRUTH to the best of their ability and powers.
Quote from: Luke
Acts 17:10,11~"And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."
This is called being a noble Berean~so, of course, I practice reading the scriptures at FACE VALUE, and if it makes no sense, or I cannot make it fit other scriptures, THEN and ONLY then I seek for its spiritual application. I could keep going, but enough for now of this subject.
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Mon Mar 01, 2021 - 06:13:20
Hi againCobalt1959,

You must have skimmed over my long comment and missed where I DID briefly touch on the millennium.  Look again. 

And I have never said that all prophecy was fulfilled by the close of AD 70.  I have said that all WRITTEN prophecy was unsealed and fulfilled about the “days of vengeance” back then (Luke 21:22), but that there is obviously some UNWRITTEN prophecy sealed up in Rev. 10:4 for history AFTER AD 70 had come and gone.

You’ll have to pardon my truly “long-winded” comments, since I have no church fellowship (or fellowship with my spouse either) to share anything with.  I cherish this website for offering that opportunity with you all - even when you are not in agreement with what I present.

There is a very, very simple way to confirm the actual ENDING of the literal 1,000-year millennium.  It’s the Rev. 12:12 verse, when compared with Rev. 20:3 & 7. 

Satan was supposed to be released from his 1,000-year chain for only a “little season” just AFTER the millennium had “EXPIRED” and had been “FULFILLED”, correct?

Well, John said in Rev. 12:12 that the Devil in the days of his readers had ALREADY come down to wrathfully oppress the inhabitants of earth and sea for that “short time”.  In other words, an angry Devil was already released after the millennium and was walking about “as a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour” in those days (I Peter 5:8).  So, the millennium had ALREADY EXPIRED before John was setting pen to parchment in those days. 

Now, whether you admit to a late date or an early date for Revelation’s composition - this doesn’t matter much in this discussion, since the millennium would have ALREADY EXPIRED AND BEEN FULFILLED in either case.

The Rev. 20 Millennium dates lasting from its beginning to its expiration include the literal 1,000 years of a physical temple worship system between 968/967 BC until AD 33 when Christ established Himself as the true spiritual temple’s foundation stone.

Simple.  The millennium ended when Christ first ascended and the devil descended.
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: Rella on Mon Mar 01, 2021 - 07:49:28
Goodmorning Red,

Okay... from your last reply

Quote
Quote
Nehemiah 8:8~"So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading."
Truth will never be known by anyone who fails to practice such scriptures.
Quote
Quote from: Paul
2nd Timothy 2:15~"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."
Noble believers WILL search the scriptures daily to make sure what they are holding is the TRUTH to the best of their ability and powers.[/size]

These may be the two most important verses that one can read, and ponder. Yes I said ponder simply because I do believe that most everyone that comes here, or to any other "Christian" forum believes within their heart of hearts  they do possess the truth in what they read and perceive.

That begs the question. How is it possible for one to truly ascertain if theirs' is a true belief or faulty?

Commentaries merely are the opinion of mortal men. And many are at odds with each other.

Clergy is at the mercy of what they learn at seminary, and if they attend a denominational one... things get slanted.

Forum groups and message boards can raise a temper faster then anything.

And even if you enter into things in quiet prayer to our Father... and you get a crystal clear understanding that rings true... even at that  I , or 4WD or 3 Resurections or Amo may and will come away with a totally different different understanding.

And quite often.... even to me... more then one side of the coin makes perfect sense.

As Bill Clinton would say  "it depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is,"

Or even some of the more knowledgeable on Koine Greek on here might say "it depends on what the meaning of the word eis, is." ( Which I have to comment that this is a very fascinating little word with multiple meanings and even though you do not go back into ancient texts to study... a search on this can be amusing)
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Mon Mar 01, 2021 - 08:14:20
Hi RB,

Do you truly believe scripture at “FACE VALUE”?  Then if you do, you must believe Christ’s words in Luke 21:36.

“Watch ye then, in every season, praying that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that are *ABOUT TO* COME TO PASS, and to stand before the Son of Man.”  This is the YLT, and at least a dozen other translations copy this exact same sense of imminence for all these things.

Do you realize exactly what that list of “ALL THINGS” in that context would include? 

V. 8 - False claimants of being the Messiah
V. 9 - Wars and uprisings
V. 10 - Nation against nation, kingdom against kingdom
V. 11 - earthquakes in divers places, famines, pestilences, fearful things and great signs from heaven
V. 12 - Prior to all that above, persecution, brought before Jewish synagogues for judgment, imprisonments, witnessing before kings and rulers
V. 16 - Betrayal by family and friends, resulting in martyrdom for some
V. 17 - hatred by all men
V. 20 - Jerusalem surrounded by armies
V. 21-22 - Christians fleeing Judea and Jerusalem for the mountains, preparatory to all things being fulfilled about the days of vengeance
V. 23 - Great distress in the land (of Israel) and wrath upon that people
V. 24 - This same people falling by the sword and being taken captive to all nations, with Jerusalem being trodden by the nations until the TIMES (time, times, and half time, or 3-1/2 years) were over
V. 25 - Signs in sun, moon, and stars, distress of nations with perplexity, sea and waves roaring
V. 26 - Men panicked with fear in expectation of what was coming, and the powers of heaven shaken (because anything shaken was going to be removed)
V. 27 - The view of the returning Son of Man coming in the clouds, with power and great glory
V. 28 - The redemption of the saints (the resurrection to life of the dead bodies of those in Christ)
V. 31 - The manifestation of the reign of God would be near
V. 32 - That generation would not pass until all these things had come to pass
V. 33 - Heaven and earth as the disciples knew it would pass away, but God’s written and spoken words would not

Jesus included “ALL THESE THINGS” listed above in the same context when He said they were ALL “*ABOUT TO* COME TO PASS”.

Since your favorite KJV of this Luke 21:36 verse does NOT include a translation of the Greek “mellonta” term (meaning “about to” happen), then you entirely miss the imminence of these events that were ALL “ABOUT TO come to pass” in those first-century days.

Strange for the KJV translators to avoid this, because they had no problem whatever with translating this “mello” term in other verses, such as Hebrews 8:5, when Moses was “ABOUT TO make the tabernacle” (mellen).  Also Acts 20:3, when Paul “was ABOUT TO sail into Syria” (mellonti).  I sense a bit of prejudice and avoidance in the KJV translation methods when they translated this Luke 21:36 verse.
 

Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Mon Mar 01, 2021 - 09:26:23
Excellent observations Rella.

It has often frustrated me how my spouse, (who is TOTALLY devoted to a love of God’s words), can come away from their Bible study with an entirely different understanding than my own. 

My best guess is that God ALLOWS any disagreement on doctrines to persist so that we have an opportunity to show the watching unregenerate world how believers can still exercise love, patience, and gentleness with each other - even when we are at odds with one another doctrinally speaking. “By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.”

Besides, let’s presume hypothetically that every saint has always been on the same page, without a single contrary view ever coming between.  Wouldn’t that tempt us to merely pat each other on the back, slap the Bible shut, and go our separate ways, never trying to engage with each other again?  We are all inherently lazy and/or busy with our day-to-day lives, and would probably use such a mythical universal agreement as an excuse to never check up on each other again. 

So let the differences continue!  Only in glory can we expect to be completely of one accord.  In the meantime, we are working toward that final goal with the Spirit’s nudging us inside, though we will never achieve it totally in this life.  We can get as close as we can, and God’s mercy fills in the gaps of disunity with His unifying love for all of us that make up His body in this world.
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: Rella on Mon Mar 01, 2021 - 12:42:10
Hi RB,

Do you truly believe scripture at “FACE VALUE”?  Then if you do, you must believe Christ’s words in Luke 21:36.

“Watch ye then, in every season, praying that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that are *ABOUT TO* COME TO PASS, and to stand before the Son of Man.”  This is the YLT, and at least a dozen other translations copy this exact same sense of imminence for all these things.

Do you realize exactly what that list of “ALL THINGS” in that context would include? 

V. 8 - False claimants of being the Messiah
V. 9 - Wars and uprisings
V. 10 - Nation against nation, kingdom against kingdom
V. 11 - earthquakes in divers places, famines, pestilences, fearful things and great signs from heaven
V. 12 - Prior to all that above, persecution, brought before Jewish synagogues for judgment, imprisonments, witnessing before kings and rulers
V. 16 - Betrayal by family and friends, resulting in martyrdom for some
V. 17 - hatred by all men
V. 20 - Jerusalem surrounded by armies
V. 21-22 - Christians fleeing Judea and Jerusalem for the mountains, preparatory to all things being fulfilled about the days of vengeance
V. 23 - Great distress in the land (of Israel) and wrath upon that people
V. 24 - This same people falling by the sword and being taken captive to all nations, with Jerusalem being trodden by the nations until the TIMES (time, times, and half time, or 3-1/2 years) were over
V. 25 - Signs in sun, moon, and stars, distress of nations with perplexity, sea and waves roaring
V. 26 - Men panicked with fear in expectation of what was coming, and the powers of heaven shaken (because anything shaken was going to be removed)
V. 27 - The view of the returning Son of Man coming in the clouds, with power and great glory
V. 28 - The redemption of the saints (the resurrection to life of the dead bodies of those in Christ)
V. 31 - The manifestation of the reign of God would be near
V. 32 - That generation would not pass until all these things had come to pass
V. 33 - Heaven and earth as the disciples knew it would pass away, but God’s written and spoken words would not

Jesus included “ALL THESE THINGS” listed above in the same context when He said they were ALL “*ABOUT TO* COME TO PASS”.

Since your favorite KJV of this Luke 21:36 verse does NOT include a translation of the Greek “mellonta” term (meaning “about to” happen), then you entirely miss the imminence of these events that were ALL “ABOUT TO come to pass” in those first-century days.

Strange for the KJV translators to avoid this, because they had no problem whatever with translating this “mello” term in other verses, such as Hebrews 8:5, when Moses was “ABOUT TO make the tabernacle” (mellen).  Also Acts 20:3, when Paul “was ABOUT TO sail into Syria” (mellonti).  I sense a bit of prejudice and avoidance in the KJV translation methods when they translated this Luke 21:36 verse.

Oh boy....

Quote
So let the differences continue!

I'll let RB answer for himself when he can....

About the words about to. I note that you avoid not only the KJV and the NKJV but all others that simply state that something will happen in Luke 21:36.

Great.... but let us both look back at not only the Greek interlinear but also Aramaic.

First ~ knowing RB, as well as others I am sure do not do their due diligence to research the historical old documents of the Holy Bible, I am going to post Luke 21:36 from the Greek/English Interlinear so all can see exactly how the interpreters interpreted the Greek. https://biblehub.com/interlinear/luke/21.htm

Watch also at every season praying that you may have strength to escape these things all that are about to come to pass
and to stand before the Son - of Man

I have taken this one step farther and included the Aramaic scriptures as some documentation of those days was also done in Aramaic as well as the Greek. https://www.thearamaicscriptures.com/lukes-gospel.html

36 Therefore, be watching always, and pray that you might be worthy to escape from these things that are destined to happen, and that you might stand before The Son of Man.”

The debate is ongoing as to which was written first, and it strongly leans toward Greek, then Aramaic.

Except:

A little light reading

Original Gospel: Greek or Aramaic? | Religious Forums

I do think the gospel was first written in Greek and later in Aramaic, however, considering Semitic culture and its practice of oral tradition I think there is a real possibility of an oral Aramaic gospel which predates the written Greek gospels.

https://www.religiousforums.com/threads/original-gospel-greek-or-aramaic.180002/

But no matter which was the chicken here.... The key phrase in these languages is opposite, as seen in red above, and therefore begs one to wonder why. They mean 2 different things.

You believe that if the term "about to" is correct then about too means imminent.

I say not necessarily. Not in the eyes of God. For with God time is unbound.

God created time. In our universe time is basically linear. We go forward at a fairly steady rate, give or take allowances for velocity and gravity. We cannot go back in time, and we cannot experience more than one instant at a time. God does not have this limitation. He does not live within the semi-linear timeline of our universe. He experiences every moment of time all at once. https://www.compellingtruth.org/God-and-time.html

Have you ever been taking a child somewhere and when they wanted to know where you are going you might have said "We are about to go to a movie, or we are about to go see grandma, or we are about to go to an amusement park.

And on the drive there you heard when will we be there, and you simply say soon. Even though the movie is an hour away, Grandmas is 2 hours away and the amusement park is 3 hours away.

And before long the repetitive chants of "Are we there yet?" are heard.

Have you not experienced this?

To a child time is in short concise chunks while to you as an adult time is just what it is to go to wherever you are headed.

God does not think in time.

From when God created Adam until the end... be it 70AD or into the future from now, in relationship to eternity past as well as future all can  be called  "about to" and not mean imminently, because it is a progression to the end. It is about mankind having fulfilled his purpose and destiny. Mankind encompassing all from Adam to the last man.

And let us not forget that many of those who Jesus was talking to would be dead before 70AD... which would make
"that you may have strength to escape these things" a totally  moot point if talking to them.... but totally relevant if talking about when that actually would be happening.

As to your list.

I'll let RB address that.

Just know that all on our side of the fence knows this list. It is etched in our minds. Nothing there pinpoints a time. Not 70AD , or into infinity.....
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: RB on Mon Mar 01, 2021 - 15:04:51
Hi RB, Do you truly believe scripture at “FACE VALUE”? 
Let me see if I can squeeze a post in before Miss Sherry calls for me to come down to the house for supper.

Well of course everyone must approach the scriptures when reading them at face value, or else words have no meaning. If I say to you the cow jumped over the fence, when in fact the gate was left open, then we lose the means of communicating with each other.

That being said, we all know that the scriptures have hidden meaning BEHIND the mere sounding of words~like all, world, Israel, Jerusalem, saved, save, salvation, etc. etc. Our job is to diligently seek out the meaning of the mysteries hidden therein. The scriptures used proverbs, symbolic language, to hide the truth, and even Jesus spoke in this manner quite often:
Quote
John 16:29~"His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb."
But even when he spoke plainly, one would still need to compare scriptures with scriptures and allow them to render their interpretation to us. I think you fully understand this, it has not been kept from you over the years. I first met you thirty-five years ago, and know you were taught and believe this to be so.

Sometimes the Spirit uses plain words if one would carefully hear what the Spirit is saying~example: the "man of sin"~no need to waste much time hearing what the Spirit is saying to us IF we listen carefully and read distinctly its words. Man of SIN...MAN of sin~is simply a man living under the power of sin in opposition to the word of God in BOTH doctrine and godliness. Nothing mysterious about that phrase if taken LITERAL.
Quote from: 3 Resurrections on: Today at 08:14:20
Then if you do, you must believe Christ’s words in Luke 21:36.
I certainly do, with all of my heart. 
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
Luke 21:36~"Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."
Your theory of this happening in 70 A.D. in literal Jerusalem has more problem to deal with than I believe you are able to defend~example:
Quote
Luke 21:34,35~"And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
Each word in these eight words is filled with truth that Preterism denies and rejects. The coming judgment is NOT limited to the city of JERUSALEM, but this judgment is coming on ALL them that dwell on the face of the WHOLE earth. Now, let me put this back into your court, and please show me where I'm wrong in taking these eight-words AT FACE VALUE. I'll give you help here: the CONTENT of Luke 21 with Matthew 24 and Mark 13 which addresses the SAME SUBJECT tell me to take these words literally, yet in order to protect your doctrine you cannot do so.
Quote from: 3 Resurrections on: Today at 08:14:20
Do you realize exactly what that list of “ALL THINGS” in that context would include?
I do sir.

I must stop and come back early in the morning to finish..RB  When Miss Sherry calls, I do not walk, I run as all good husbands should do. Well, I no longer run but walk at a slow pace~at least I'm walking, that's a good thing.

Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Mon Mar 01, 2021 - 17:14:34
Just keep shuffling, RB, no matter what the speed.  At our ages, if you don’t move it, you lose it.

Let me do a little reminding here...I have never said that the great tribulation era of AD 66-70 and the troubled “beginning of sorrows” years leading up to it were exclusively concentrated on the city of Jerusalem alone.  Not even in Judea alone, either.   Didn’t I just give you an example above of some of those “sea and the waves roaring” imminent events as actual volcanic activity in the Mediterranean ocean near Crete and in the Roman province of Campania? (The AD 46/47 Thera eruption and the 62/63 eruption of Mount Vesuvius respectively). 

Even Seneca’s writing in his “Concerning Earthquakes” volume of AD 63 was trying to reassure the fearful Italians to stay living in their villas and homes in Campania after the AD 62/63 eruption, although the sea levels along the Herculaneum coastline were continually rising and then falling repeatedly up to 16 feet or so, all during a two-decade period leading up to Mount Vesuvius’ catastrophic explosion in AD 79.  Seismic activity was at a surge in that first-century time period, and quite literally had “the sea and the waves roaring”, as Christ predicted.  Part of the evidence being that tsunami wave in AD 62/63 that swamped those 300 grain ships in the Roman Ostia harbor (the “third of the ships destroyed” prophecy in Rev. 8:9). 

That “face of the whole earth” prediction of a coming snare uses the “tes ges” term again, referring to the WHOLE LAND OF ISRAEL.  This does not create a problem for what I’m saying.  IN ADDITION TO THE LAND OF ISRAEL experiencing tribulations, however, we also have a reference in Luke 21:26 to men fearfully expecting things coming on the whole “habitable earth” (using the “oikoumene” term this time, which DOES mean the whole known world at that time).

So, all this complete list of fearful things that were “ABOUT TO come to pass” in those first-century days would be shared across the spectrum of the known world’s inhabitants of BOTH the “earth” (tes ges - the land of Israel) AND the habitable world at large (oikoumene). 

RB, I hardly expect you to abandon your attachment to the KJV which does NOT translate the “mellonta” (about to) term correctly in this Luke 21:36 verse.  But don’t you find it at least a little disturbing that the KJV actually DID translate the “mello” term correctly as “about to” in Acts 20:3 and Hebrews 8:5 for example, but chose to avoid translating the same Greek term the same way in Luke 21:36?   Why would they do that?  This suggests a prejudiced, pre-conceived, personal opinion of the translators to me.  But thankfully, at least 13 other translations DO catch the imminence of those first-century events by translating the “mello” term correctly in this verse. 


Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: RB on Tue Mar 02, 2021 - 04:54:42
Just keep shuffling, RB, no matter what the speed.  At our ages, if you don’t move it, you lose it.
I Got you about ten years, or so~just ask Miss Rella if ten years makes much difference on our bodies~I can assure you it does. Ask 4WD he even older than myself, maybe five to ten years above me.

Just a quick thought and I want to begin looking at Revelation 7 as I promised to do before I forget to do so.
Quote
Let me do a little reminding here...I have never said that the great tribulation era of AD 66-70 and the troubled “beginning of sorrows” years leading up to it were exclusively concentrated on the city of Jerusalem alone.  Not even in Judea alone, either.   Didn’t I just give you an example above of some of those “sea and the waves roaring” imminent events as actual volcanic activity in the Mediterranean ocean near Crete and in the Roman province of Campania? (The AD 46/47 Thera eruption and the 62/63 eruption of Mount Vesuvius respectively).

Even Seneca’s writing in his “Concerning Earthquakes” volume of AD 63 was trying to reassure the fearful Italians to stay living in their villas and homes in Campania after the AD 62/63 eruption, although the sea levels along the Herculaneum coastline were continually rising and then falling repeatedly up to 16 feet or so, all during a two-decade period leading up to Mount Vesuvius’ catastrophic explosion in AD 79.  Seismic activity was at a surge in that first-century time period, and quite literally had “the sea and the waves roaring”, as Christ predicted.  Part of the evidence being that tsunami wave in AD 62/63 that swamped those 300 grain ships in the Roman Ostia harbor (the “third of the ships destroyed” prophecy in Rev. 8:9).
Still that's a "far cry" from the Lord's words:
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
Luke 21:34,35~"And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
This DAY is the visible second coming of Jesus Christ in JUDGMENT on the WHOLE WORLD, not just in Jerusalem and surrounding area's over the known world of that time.

By you and others limiting Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 to 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem you are leaving most of the world unprepared for the evil days that are coming for the ENTIRE WORLD...now what spirit would be behind such teachings? Well, since you believe that evil demonic spirits were destroyed in 70 A.D. that leaves evil men void of the Spirit of God whom you are following, or at least been deceived by them~either or, you are deceived and deceiving any that would agree with you on your eschatology teachings. I know that you and JRC differ on this, but I'm convinced that it was him that got you started down this road since he's a half-baked Preterist~and his teachings could easily lead a believer down the road that you are on.
Quote from:  3 Resurrections on: Yesterday at 17:14:34
That “face of the whole earth” prediction of a coming snare uses the “tes ges” term again, referring to the WHOLE LAND OF ISRAEL.  This does not create a problem for what I’m saying.  IN ADDITION TO THE LAND OF ISRAEL experiencing tribulations, however, we also have a reference in Luke 21:26 to men fearfully expecting things coming on the whole “habitable earth” (using the “oikoumene” term this time, which DOES mean the whole known world at that time).
Do not know your feelings on Samuel Richardson one of, if not my favorite writer to read behind said this concerning the Greek and Hebrews writings in reference to the KJV:
                                         
                                        Greek & Hebrew Knowledge as an Idolatrous Substitute for Understanding the Holy Scripture

The Priests say that we know not the original, and our Bibles are not rightly translated, nor cannot be pronounced according to the original; besides in translations there are errors, for no translation is simply authentical, and the undoubted Word of God. We demand of you, answer if you can; as to how know you that your Hebrew and Greek copies are true copies? Is it not possible for any to write contrary to their copy, if copies may be printed false, they may be written false, the art of Printing is not above 350 years old. Can you produce the first original copy, or any of those the Apostles wrote? If not, the cause is the same and you know the original no more than those that know not Greek or Hebrew? If you may depend upon the faithfulness of the Writer and Printer of your Copies, why not others upon those that did it upon oath? Doctor Fulke in his confutation of the Rheims Testament justifieth the English Translation of the Bible. {William Fulke “New Testament Confutation,” 1589} But we receive not the truth by tradition. I would know of you that are so for Hebrew and Greek, &c., if the knowledge of the tongues be sufficient to teach those that have those tongues the mind of the Spirit of God in the Scriptures or no? If yea, then all that know these tongues know the mind of God; if no, then it is but an insufficient help, and what is an insufficient help worth more than nothing. The knowledge of Greek and Hebrew is a help to read a Greek and Hebrew Bible, because else they cannot read them. So the knowledge of the English tongue is of necessity to read the English Bible. The cause is the same; but the understanding the English tongue, and reading it in the Bible cannot give them to understand, the meaning of it no more than the knowledge of the tongues Greek and Hebrew though it helps them to read the Bible in those tongues, yet is not able to give them to understand the meaning of it. That this is so, some of them, who know the tongues confess; for Apollo was a learned man, he saw the first copies of the Bible, and if that could have caused him to know the mind of God what need had he to learn of Aquila a tradesman {one of the laity as the Priests use to say} and Priscilla his wife the mind of God as he did. {Acts.18:26} Also what is the reason that those that know the tongues cannot agree among themselves? What is the mind of God in his Word, that some of you in your expositions are as contrary to each other as light is to darkness; the natural man cannot perceive the things that be of God; a natural man may be, and some are learned men it’s confessed; some of the Jesuits are good Scholars, &c., for they know the tongues, &c.; then it will follow a man may be such a learned man and yet cannot understand nor perceive the things of God. Nicodemus was a great scholar and teacher in Israel yet how simple was he concerning the meaning of Christ’s words. Tell me then what a help their human learning is to them in spiritual knowledge in the things of the Spirit. The Word saith that he reveals to us the deep things of God by his Spirit, {I Cor.2:10;} he saith not by Greek and Hebrew. If our translation be true then we can tell the meaning of it as well as you; if it be not true tell me what is that Preaching worth that is proved by a false translation, and if we must believe contrary to our translation because you say so, what is this but an implicit faith and human? And seeing you so differ among yourselves about the meaning of the word or the mind of God in it, tell me, how I may know which of you I am to believe? Also you confess that one word {in the ‘original’} could bear nine or ten divers significations; how know you which of them is the mind of God in that place, unless he reveal it to you? And if God please he can reveal it to a simple man, and God doth do so, and this is that for which Christ thanks his Father, because he hath hid these things from the wise and the learned, and revealed it unto babes, “the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee; and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed; and the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee; and he saith, I am not learned.” “For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes; the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.” {Is.29:10-12} Neither of them can read it, both put it off for they cannot understand it, the unlearned thinks as he hath been taught, that if he were learned in Greek and Hebrew he could understand it; but the former who was such a learned man could not do it, it is hid from the learned; for it’s not in being learned, nor in  not being learned. What then will some say, it is because God hath not revealed it to them therefore they do not know it. The Lord saith that none can know the things of God, but he to whom the Spirit will reveal them. {I Cor.2:9-16} {See also Ps.119:99,100}

The knowledge of Greek, Hebrew and English are all human learning of equal excellency, necessity, and use for the translation and reading of the Bible; and as without the knowledge of Greek and Hebrew, the Bible could not be translated into English, so he that translated the Bible into English, could not have done it without the knowledge of the English tongue; therefore there is the same use and help and necessity of the English tongue as of the Greek or Hebrew tongue; so there is the same to be said for the French and Dutch tongue, and all other tongues and therefore why the Greek and Hebrew tongues should be of any more use and excellency than other tongues, there is no reason to be given for it. As Aaron the Priest set up the golden calf it was called a god and Aaron made Proclamation, {Ex.32:4-8, &c.,} and the people idolized it and danced about it, so the Priests have set up Greek and Hebrew as a god, and the people rejoice exceedingly in it, for they Idolize it and fall down and worship it, because the Priest have made a Proclamation for it and commended it for such a rare thing to help them to the knowledge of the mind of God. A golden business by custom is turned into necessity and it is in such an esteem as they do idolize it and worship it, as they did the calf. -

But, what, are there not means and helps to the understanding the Scriptures without Greek and Hebrew? Yes, only the self-evidencing light of the Spirit of God, which first inspired the Pen-men of Scriptures, who is in the hearts of the Saints, the only Interpreter of the Scriptures. Secondly; the knowledge of the body of Divinity, or the Analogy of the faith, to which the Scripture is to be referred for its right interpretation. Thirdly; the Law of God written in the hearts of the Lord’s, which favors the truth, and disrelishes errors. The fourth help to the understanding the Scriptures, is the manifold experience of varieties of temptations, and the experiences of the work of Grace in the soul. Lastly, to compare Scriptures that are dark with Scriptures of the same nature that are more plain, and so to let the Scriptures expound themselves.

I conclude this, all men are pure blind, yea dead, till God gives life, and opens men’s eyes. And although human learning is necessary for translating the Scriptures, &c.
yet many idolize it, as the children of Israel did their golden Calf. Samuel Richardson {Answer to the London Ministers Letter &c., 1649}


So there, you are tempted to change the word of God in its English version to align with your doctrine~ my only duty is to make sure my understanding is according to the scriptures IN MY English bible that God has so graciously given to us shortly after the printing press was invented. 
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Tue Mar 02, 2021 - 07:56:01
Morning again RB,

I’m astounded that you can accuse me of “idolatry” concerning the use of the VERY SAME TRANSLATION TOOLS that the KJV translators employed to give us the KJV in the first place.  Why do you not equally accuse THEM of “idolizing” the original languages??  Were THEY the sole proprietors of the original languages?  Is NO ONE BUT THEM ever allowed to look into using the original tongues as a help in understanding  the mind of God?  This is an injustice of you, brother.  This amounts to a kind of worship of the translators of the KJV.

Do not ALL of us who are a child of God have that same Spirit of God within?  We ALL have access by that same Spirit to the Father.  God’s Spirit within can help me to understand His mind and intent, and with the very same assisting tools that those most learned men of God used back then.  If the KJV translators chose to exercise a different choice of translating a word a certain way instead of another, I am just as entitled to catch them on it and question why they did so.  ESPECIALLY when other plain language in scripture opposes their choice of translation options.  WHICH IT DOES. 

God used so very many different terms and full sentences to explain just HOW SOON that list of disasters and troubles in Luke 21 and elsewhere was going to come upon Christ’s disciples and their own first-century generation, that I’m amazed it took me so many years of Bible reading to realize the imminent sense of what He was saying.  I trusted without question those who were interpreting it for me in my younger days. 

But not any longer. As you said yourself above, RB...we are ALL supposed to be “noble Bereans” in our study of the scripture...even if the Apostle Paul were still alive and giving us instruction in doctrine.  Paul said the same thing himself.  (“If we or an angel of God...” etc.)

As for one point you mentioned above...Christ DID include a judgement on the WHOLE WORLD in AD 70.  Both the living AND the dead were “ABOUT TO” (mellontos) be judged at Christ’s appearance and His kingdom, as Paul warned Timothy in II Timothy 4:1.  The living of that generation suffered great tribulations as their judgment of vengeance, and the dead of the whole world were brought to judgment in AD 70 of either eternal life or of perishing by it.

God used that city of Jerusalem as a gathering point where all the dead converged “IN THAT DAY” when He bodily returned to the Mount of Olives.  He said Death and Hades (the dead inhabitants of the grave) were to be thrown into the Lake of Fire.   And for the location of the Lake of Fire, we are told that the Lord’s “FIRE IS IN ZION, and HIS FURNACE *IN JERUSALEM*” (Is. 31:9).   That particular location is where God intended to pass judgment for the destruction of the wicked who had died up until the AD 70 date.

As for all the resurrected bodies of the elect righteous dead from creation to that Pentecost day in AD 70, they were to be gathered from the entire planet - “from one end of heaven to another” (Matt. 24:31) - and all would converge at the city of Jerusalem.  From there, I believe they passed through the portal of that prophesied eastern gate located on the east side of the temple grounds (per Ezekiel 46), and met the Lord together in the air as He returned to heaven with them (per I Thess. 4).  All this in maybe less time than it takes to put a period on the end of this sentence.  And since that eastern  gate was long since destroyed in AD 70, that gives evidence that this gate already fulfilled its purpose in prophecy.

None of this detracts from other prophecies and scriptural symbolisms which apply to this current age.  RB, you say what I believe leaves people “unprepared” for what is coming in our future.  Not so.  I have said point blank that by 2033, I believe God has designed for the entire world to transition into a final 1,000-year period of a kind of fallow existence that will be reduced to a more basic level of living.  A “Sabbath” type millennium, if you will.  To help mankind realize their dependence on God to sustain life, and to instigate more growth of the kingdom of God (as promised) before the final resurrection and judgment at the close of this last, 7th millennium of fallen man’s history.

There have continued to be regular episodes of tribulation for the saints, since Matthew 24:21and 29 predicted this would occur over time during the years of history FOLLOWING that first-century generation’s “Great Tribulation” and Christ’s second coming (which was in AD 70 “IMMEDIATELY AFTER” that tribulation back then).  But since then, at least we no longer have to contend with the present existence of the demonic realm in these current ages.  Human evil as expressed by “children of the devil” is bad enough.  God is allowing this expression, but in spite of the intentions of the unregenerate wicked, in the end, they will only serve to accomplish His ultimate plan for the growth of His kingdom in this world.  We can count on that.
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: Rella on Tue Mar 02, 2021 - 08:12:25

 Do not know your feelings on Samuel Richardson one of, if not my favorite writer to read behind said this concerning the Greek and Hebrews writings in reference to the KJV:
                                         
                                        Greek & Hebrew Knowledge as an Idolatrous Substitute for Understanding the Holy Scripture

The Priests say that we know not the original, and our Bibles are not rightly translated, nor cannot be pronounced according to the original; besides in translations there are errors, for no translation is simply authentical, and the undoubted Word of God. We demand of you, answer if you can; as to how know you that your Hebrew and Greek copies are true copies?


Side note from me on this:

"Greek & Hebrew Knowledge as an Idolatrous Substitute for Understanding the Holy Scripture"

How can you assure us that Jimmy's men were correct in their re-translations of the Holy Book?

As to copies of Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic

I have the following at my fingertips, from which I readily can and will compare. I am adding all the time because
with an interest in old history I find the comparing to be wonderful.

ARAMAIC SCRIPTURES
https://www.thearamaicscriptures.com/matthews-gospel.html

CODEX SINAITICUS (the earliest known manuscript of the Christian Bible, compiled in the 4th century CE.)
http://www.codexsinaiticus.org/en/manuscript.aspx?book=33&chapter=1&lid=en&side=r&zoomSli

About the Codex Sinaiticus ~ very interesting
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Codex-Sinaiticus

COMPLETE JEWISH BIBLE
https://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Complete-Jewish-Bible-CJB/#booklist

DAKE BIBLE pre ADAMIC
http://dakereader.proboards.com/thread/35

FULL TEXT OF GENESIS A TRANSLATED
https://archive.org/stream/genesisa15612gut/15612.txt

GENESIS B
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genesis_B


GREEK ENGLISH INTERLINEAR (INCLUSIVE OF HEBREW ITERLINEAR)
https://www.logosapostolic.org/bibles/interlinear_nt.htm


Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: RB on Tue Mar 02, 2021 - 08:43:34
DAKE BIBLE pre ADAMIC
[url]http://dakereader.proboards.com/thread/35[/url]
Has been removed and is no longer on line~I believe...... you can double ck if you desire to do so. At least the forum from whence it at one time came from.
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: 4WD on Tue Mar 02, 2021 - 09:08:01
Do not know your feelings on Samuel Richardson one of, if not my favorite writer to read behind said this concerning the Greek and Hebrews writings in reference to the KJV:
                                         
                                        Greek & Hebrew Knowledge as an Idolatrous Substitute for Understanding the Holy Scripture
Unless you can provide evidence sanctioned by the Holy Spirit of that fact, it has to be the dumbest acclamation ever.  Samuel Richardson has no more assurance of the accuracy of the KJV English text than he does of the extant Greek and Hebrew texts.

Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: RB on Tue Mar 02, 2021 - 14:14:10
Unless you can provide evidence sanctioned by the Holy Spirit of that fact, it has to be the dumbest acclamation ever.  Samuel Richardson has no more assurance of the accuracy of the KJV English text than he does of the extant Greek and Hebrew texts.

Notice CAREFULLY what he said:
Quote
Greek & Hebrew Knowledge as an Idolatrous Substitute for Understanding the Holy Scripture
I 100% agree with him and so shall everyone else~if that is not so, then the bible is NOT for the common man like myself and others. But we KNOW that those are the very ones the scriptures are for per such scriptures:
Quote
1st Corinthians 1:26-31~"For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord."
So much more could be provided, but enough said.
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: 4WD on Tue Mar 02, 2021 - 15:41:29
Notice CAREFULLY what he said: I 100% agree with him and so shall everyone else~if that is not so, then the bible is NOT for the common man like myself and others.
So what did the English speaking common man read before the KJV came along?  The common man certainly was not capable of reading the Latin which was about the only version available for hundreds if years.  And RB, you are not so common that you cannot make use of all the tools available today for studying God's word.  That you refuse to do so doesn't speak well of your desire to truly understand His message to man.

And by the way, if the KJV is truly a work of the Holy Spirit, He shouldn't have and wouldn't have transliterated the Greek word baptize; He should/would have translated it as immersed or submerse as the originally meant.  The Holy Spirit is not so dubious as to avoid the actual truth.
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: Rella on Tue Mar 02, 2021 - 17:47:46
Has been removed and is no longer on line~I believe...... you can double ck if you desire to do so. At least the forum from whence it at one time came from.


Yep, you are correct.

I have not checked this one in months and only do so when I have a reason to check things " prehistoric" or " evolutionery".

But I did find a few  links, which will serve my future purposes....

http://www.fmh-child.org/Dake_Pre-Adamite_Race.pdf

Also, RB... You might be interested to know there is a KJV Dake Bible (NO... not buying but is good to know)

https://www.christianbook.com/kjv-annotated-reference-bonded-leather-black/9781558291188/pd/91180?event=Bibles|1004089

Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: Rella on Tue Mar 02, 2021 - 18:08:18
So what did the English speaking common man read before the KJV came along?  The common man certainly was not capable of reading the Latin which was about the only version available for hundreds if years.  And RB, you are not so common that you cannot make use of all the tools available today for studying God's word.  That you refuse to do so doesn't speak well of your desire to truly understand His message to man.

And by the way, if the KJV is truly a work of the Holy Spirit, He shouldn't have and wouldn't have transliterated the Greek word baptize; He should/would have translated it as immersed or submerse as the originally meant.  The Holy Spirit is not so dubious as to avoid the actual truth.


Check these out... for yourself cause there were other English bibles pre-KJV.

Among my other "bibles" I found today in researching my files for my reply to RB  are the Geneva Bibles ~FASCINATING

1560/1599

http://www.genevabible.org/Geneva.html

Geneva Study Bible

https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/eng/gsb/mark.html

Geneva 1560 ~ Textus Receptus Bible

http://www.textusreceptusbibles.com/Geneva

Geneva 1569

https://www.originalbibles.com/geneva-bible-1569/

Note: Although I have not seen all of these yet... in English are

The Cloverdale 1535

The Great Bible 1535

The Geneva 1560

The Bishops 1568

https://www.oldest.org/religion/bibles/#:~:text=The%20Coverdale%20Bible%20was%20the%20first%20Bible%20to,and%20the%20final%20edition%20was%20published%20in%201553.

And the oldest I have found recorded as yet...

 Codex Vaticanus (The Latin Bible)   300 - 305 AD But it is in Greek
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Tue Mar 02, 2021 - 20:53:40
Codex Vaticanus (The Latin Bible)   300 - 305 AD But it is in Greek
A quick note - Codex Vaticanus is a minority text.  That is to say, the text there doesn't agree with the majority of manuscripts of the Bible that we have.

Just because it's a very early text, that doesn't necessarily mean it's the most accurate.  Many of the learned men who have translated Scriptures over the years have intentionally disregarded it as a source because of perceived doctrinal irregularities.

Jarrod
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Tue Mar 02, 2021 - 21:04:22
Paul's mystery revealed was twofold.  The Church, and that Jesus had brought salvation to the Gentiles as well as the Jews.  Even so, the Church is grafted in.  It is not the root.  So you can word it however you want, but if your eschatology does not focus on the restoration of Israel at the end, and Israel alone, then you are teaching another gospel.   Others will be saved besides Israel during this time, but the entire focus of Daniel and Revelation is the restoration of Israel and their repentance.  If you are teaching anything else, you're teaching Replacement Theology.
I have a problem with this.

The adoption of the Gentiles IS the restoration of Israel.  (Not of the Jews, but of Israel.. they are not the same thing.)

Do you not see that the adoption of the Gentiles is the fulfillment of God's promise to Abraham to make him a "Father of Nations?"  As you said yourself, they are "grafted in," and have become part and parcel of Israel.  Not a replacement, but the actual thing.

Jarrod
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: Rella on Tue Mar 02, 2021 - 21:06:56
A quick note - Codex Vaticanus is a minority text.  That is to say, the text there doesn't agree with the majority of manuscripts of the Bible that we have.

Just because it's a very early text, that doesn't necessarily mean it's the most accurate.  Many of the learned men who have translated Scriptures over the years have intentionally disregarded it as a source because of perceived doctrinal irregularities.

Jarrod

Interesting.
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: RB on Wed Mar 03, 2021 - 03:04:19
Also, RB... You might be interested to know there is a KJV Dake Bible (NO... not buying but is good to know)https://www.christianbook.com/kjv-annotated-reference-bonded-leather-black/9781558291188/pd/91180?event=Bibles|1004089
I have one~ "only" because a customer of mine many years ago gave me one~I do not believe in his notes because they are against the scriptures, much like The Expositor's Study Bible KJV from the Jimmy Swaggart's Ministry which I also have only for references on what they teach to keep up speed on their teachings. Of course, Dake and Swaggarts both are Pentencostcals, with much Scofieldism and Arminianism. Both of those men have a very bad past that is not worthy of being servants of God.

I personally do not like NOTES included in any bible for a few reasons~but each to his own on that.
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: RB on Wed Mar 03, 2021 - 03:15:01
I have a problem with this.

The adoption of the Gentiles IS the restoration of Israel.  (Not of the Jews, but of Israel.. they are not the same thing.)

Do you not see that the adoption of the Gentiles is the fulfillment of God's promise to Abraham to make him a "Father of Nations?"  As you said yourself, they are "grafted in," and have become part and parcel of Israel.  Not a replacement, but the actual thing.

Jarrod

HEAR YE, HEAR YE! Amen Jarrod~ I was listening to SBN (Jimmy Swaggart's Sonlife Broadcasting Ministry)  last night which I do quite often laying in bed just before I go asleep and they were on that subject promoting Natural Israel ABOVE the church of Jesus Christ making the church an afterthought in God's eternal purposes of the salvation of HIS PEOPLE, Jews AND Gentiles in ONE BODY, ONE holy nation and spiritual temple for the Spirit of God throughout eternity world without end.
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: 4WD on Wed Mar 03, 2021 - 05:16:23
Check these out... for yourself cause there were other English bibles pre-KJV.
Those are all nearly 1000 years after the earliest evidence of "English" speaking people.
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: Rella on Wed Mar 03, 2021 - 07:48:35
Those are all nearly 1000 years after the earliest evidence of "English" speaking people.

Well, someone had to start somewhere LOL

All kidding aside... I have an ongoing quest to find very old scripture... no matter the language... preferably translated into English.

I only posted those cause of showing there were others before King Jimmy wanted his version.

As to English speaking.... I would dare say that my own family on my paternal grandmothers side ... though hailing from the UK have been traced back even into BC times... up to Denmark and Scandinavian countries...  I have the chart.

Tracing them forward they were basic heathens from what I could detect well into the 600AD or 700AD or later and would have had little interest in anything Christian or any writings.... IF they could even read and write ... though someone knew enough to post births.

My relative, direct blood line, .... born in 1605 died 1682 had been a rector for the Church of England in Sudbury , Gloucester. Ironically, he left the church and moved to Scotland to join the Presbyterian church ALL OVER A DISAGREEMENT WITH BAPTISM at the time.

But he was alive and well during the time periods of the English speaking bibles that I have posted.

I shall continue my search for older translations
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: RB on Wed Mar 03, 2021 - 08:10:28
I shall continue my search for older translations
In English:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyndale_Bible#:~:text=Tyndale's%20Bible%20is%20credited%20with,in%20the%20art%20of%20printing. Geneva Bible is an excellent version of the scriptures.

Here's the deal: rather Luther and his German Bible or Calvin in his French version (of course he could read Latin as well, etc) they ALL preach as though they were preaching from our English version of 1611~I KNOW for I have read behind both men extensively, at least enough to know that between them all there was hardly ANY DIFFERENCES in the scriptures they preached from. 

I now need to get to Revelation 7 as promised. 
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: Rella on Wed Mar 03, 2021 - 08:42:55
In English:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyndale_Bible#:~:text=Tyndale's%20Bible%20is%20credited%20with,in%20the%20art%20of%20printing. Geneva Bible is an excellent version of the scriptures.

Here's the deal: rather Luther and his German Bible or Calvin in his French version (of course he could read Latin as well, etc) they ALL preach as though they were preaching from our English version of 1611~I KNOW for I have read behind both men extensively, at least enough to know that between them all there was hardly ANY DIFFERENCES in the scriptures they preached from. 

I now need to get to Revelation 7 as promised.

Yes, I forgot all about Tyndall cause I do not have an actual Tyndall translation on the computer.

About Tyndall bible... The Tyndale New Testament first appeared in 1525. It was the first English Bible that was translated from Greek and the first that was printed.

Then there was the Coverdale Bible 1535 whose claim is that the Coverdale Bible, compiled by Myles Coverdale and published in 1535, was the first complete Modern English translation of the Bible (not just the Old Testament or New Testament), and the first complete printed translation into English.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coverdale_Bible

But we also have the Wycliff Bible..... translated in 1382.

I do not have any of the last 3 in my list as I either could not find them online or it I could as i the case of Wycliff... they are too difficult.

See Gen 1 1-5

1 In the bigynnyng God made of nouyt heuene and erthe.

1 In the bigynnyng God made of nouyt heuene and erthe. 2 Forsothe the erthe was idel and voide, and derknessis weren on the face of depthe; and the Spiryt of the Lord was borun on the watris. 2 Forsothe the erthe was idel and voide, and derknessis weren on the face of depthe; and the Spiryt of the Lord was borun on the watris.

3 And God seide, Liyt be maad, and liyt was maad.

3 And God seide, Liyt be maad, and liyt was maad. 4 And God seiy the liyt, that it was good, and he departide the liyt fro derknessis; and he clepide the liyt, 4 And God seiy the liyt, that it was good, and he departide the liyt fro derknessis; and he clepide the liyt, 5 dai, and the derknessis, nyyt. And the euentid and morwetid was maad, o daie. 5 dai, and the derknessis, nyyt. And the euentid and morwetid was maad, o daie.

Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: Texas Conservative on Wed Mar 03, 2021 - 08:45:15
Well, someone had to start somewhere LOL

All kidding aside... I have an ongoing quest to find very old scripture... no matter the language... preferably translated into English.

I only posted those cause of showing there were others before King Jimmy wanted his version.

As to English speaking.... I would dare say that my own family on my paternal grandmothers side ... though hailing from the UK have been traced back even into BC times... up to Denmark and Scandinavian countries...  I have the chart.

Tracing them forward they were basic heathens from what I could detect well into the 600AD or 700AD or later and would have had little interest in anything Christian or any writings.... IF they could even read and write ... though someone knew enough to post births.

My relative, direct blood line, .... born in 1605 died 1682 had been a rector for the Church of England in Sudbury , Gloucester. Ironically, he left the church and moved to Scotland to join the Presbyterian church ALL OVER A DISAGREEMENT WITH BAPTISM at the time.

But he was alive and well during the time periods of the English speaking bibles that I have posted.

I shall continue my search for older translations

You need to try to be less white.   ::tippinghat::
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: Rella on Wed Mar 03, 2021 - 10:13:16
You need to try to be less white.   ::tippinghat::

 rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl

Freckles only look good on white! ::crackup::
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: Cobalt1959 on Thu Mar 04, 2021 - 02:39:47
Quote
The ONLY earth Christ shall reign on will be the NEW EARTH and in the NEW HEAVENS. At the present time he is reigning FAR ABOVE ALL at God's right hand, or the very highest exalted position one can be exalted to. 70 A.D. theory as being important in biblical prophecy is a lie from the pits of hell and all who hold to that doctrine are deceived in that area of biblical truths. Children of God I would NOT question, but deceived they are as far as holding to biblical truths on Christ's coming, etc.

That is not what Revelation 20 says.
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: Cobalt1959 on Thu Mar 04, 2021 - 02:50:01
Quote
Hi againCobalt1959,

You must have skimmed over my long comment and missed where I DID briefly touch on the millennium.  Look again.

And I have never said that all prophecy was fulfilled by the close of AD 70.  I have said that all WRITTEN prophecy was unsealed and fulfilled about the “days of vengeance” back then (Luke 21:22), but that there is obviously some UNWRITTEN prophecy sealed up in Rev. 10:4 for history AFTER AD 70 had come and gone.

You’ll have to pardon my truly “long-winded” comments, since I have no church fellowship (or fellowship with my spouse either) to share anything with.  I cherish this website for offering that opportunity with you all - even when you are not in agreement with what I present.

There is a very, very simple way to confirm the actual ENDING of the literal 1,000-year millennium.  It’s the Rev. 12:12 verse, when compared with Rev. 20:3 & 7.

Satan was supposed to be released from his 1,000-year chain for only a “little season” just AFTER the millennium had “EXPIRED” and had been “FULFILLED”, correct?

Well, John said in Rev. 12:12 that the Devil in the days of his readers had ALREADY come down to wrathfully oppress the inhabitants of earth and sea for that “short time”.  In other words, an angry Devil was already released after the millennium and was walking about “as a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour” in those days (I Peter 5:8).  So, the millennium had ALREADY EXPIRED before John was setting pen to parchment in those days.

Now, whether you admit to a late date or an early date for Revelation’s composition - this doesn’t matter much in this discussion, since the millennium would have ALREADY EXPIRED AND BEEN FULFILLED in either case.

The Rev. 20 Millennium dates lasting from its beginning to its expiration include the literal 1,000 years of a physical temple worship system between 968/967 BC until AD 33 when Christ established Himself as the true spiritual temple’s foundation stone.

Simple.  The millennium ended when Christ first ascended and the devil descended.

Unwritten prophesy?  How can it be sealed up in Revelation if it is unwritten?  That makes no sense.  And if it is unwritten, how can you stand on something when you have no idea what it says?  It's pretty convenient that this "unwritten" prophesy you talk about can't be examined and tested.  We can do that with biblical prophecy and we know that there are some prophecies that are yet  to be fulfilled.  And every preterits disagrees on what constituted a prophecy in the past and how it was fulfilled, so your doctrine has some huge problems.

I'll ask the question again, since you ignored it:

Where is Jesus, right now?
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: RB on Thu Mar 04, 2021 - 03:32:22
That is not what Revelation 20 says.
Cobalt, I'm not of the preterist camp, as you can tell, neither I'm I of the premillennialist camp.

As far as Revelation twenty is teaching  without question is not an "earthly millennium reign" on this present earth with Christ reigning in his glorified body, which btw is the only body he has and will ever have. Now, if you believe this is so, then by all means labor to prove your doctrine, and I'll come and debate you on this as time permits.

Jesus is presently reigning NOW at God's right hand of power and is there UNTIL all of his enemies are made his footstool, then he will come and reign on the new earth and heavens world without end. The very last enemy that shall be destroyed is DEATH.
Quote from: Paul, the idealist amillennialist's
1st Corinthians 15:21-28~"For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."
Whatever you think Revelation twenty is saying it MUST agree with such scriptures as these or else your doctrine shall be found WANTING in God's teaching of the THE TRUTH. It is very obvious that Christ is NOW reigning as KING over spiritual Israel and WILL reign until the last foe is defeated and THEN shall he deliver up the kingdom to God that God may be ALL in ALL. Revelation Twenty is not difficult when overall scriptures are considered~they will drive the interpretation of Revelation twenty NOT the other way around like so many labors to understand Revelation. The thousand years of Revelation twenty started at the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and will last until the second coming of Christ to destroy all of his enemies. The RIGHTEOUS at the death of their bodies continues to LIVE with Christ during this one thousand years, yet the wicked are NOT SO, for they do not have eternal live as believers DO. A true believer CANNOT die for they possess ETERNAL LIFE in Christ and are NOW reigning with him FAR ABOVE ALL~much like King David of old, even though he was anointed king over Israel, he did not officially reign in Jerusalem until much later AFTER being anointed king by Samuel. Jesus was anointed at his resurrection per Peter:
Quote
Acts 2:32-36~This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
We are NOW IN the kingdom of Jesus Christ:
Quote from: Paul
Colossians 1:13~"Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:"
If I were you, I would be very careful not to rob Christ of the glory his Father has given unto him even now~ it is just not visible as it very soon shall be! Selah



Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Thu Mar 04, 2021 - 10:08:31
Hi Cobalt1959,

“Where is Jesus right now?” you asked.

I agree with RB that Christ is reigning on His high priestly throne in heaven presently.  He is doing this in His same glorified, physically-resurrected body that came out of the sepulcher in AD 33.  Christ’s body can assume different appearances or “forms” (morphe), as it did on the road to Emmaeus (Mark 16:12).

We hashed this out at length on the recent January post in the Theology forum called “Gathered to his people”.

Would you like a very simple verse that tells us where Christ is now?  He told us in Rev. 3:21.  “To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and AM SET DOWN WITH MY FATHER IN HIS THRONE.”  On the day of Pentecost in AD 33, Peter said that Christ was already established on that high-priestly throne after His resurrection and final ascension (Acts 2:29-36).

As the second person of the Trinity, the Word which eventually became flesh has ALWAYS REIGNED; just in different manifested ways over history.  The 1,000-year millennium time limit has NEVER applied to God.  As the Psalmist once said, “Thy THRONE is established *OF OLD*; THOU ART FROM *EVERLASTING*”. 

That 1,000-year millennium limited time period was imposed on SATAN - NOT CHRIST.  And it ENDED even before John was writing Revelation, as Rev. 12:12 proves when compared with Rev. 20:3 & 7.  Satan was NOT bound after Christ’s resurrection and ascension.  It was then that he and his angels lost the war in heaven.  They were judged and kicked out of heaven down to the earth to wage angry war on the inhabitants of earth and sea for only that “short time” and “little season” BACK THEN in AD 33.

Cobalt1959, you also questioned the “UNWRITTEN” prophecies that were “sealed up” in Rev. 10:4.  To “seal” anything in scripture is to preserve in a reserved status something which will eventually be “unsealed” and openly fulfilled at a later date.    Daniel 12:4 & 9 proves this.  A “sealing” can equally apply to an ORAL prophecy, which those 7 thunders uttered in John’s  hearing in Rev. 10:3-4.

We have other prophetic and symbolic scripture indications that fallen man’s history on this planet would continue AFTER the AD 70 resurrection and judgment.  Didn’t I just list the example of Matthew 24:21?  It says without question that regular bouts of tribulation for the saints would keep occurring  over time AFTER the “Great Tribulation” had come and gone (“...No, nor ever SHALL BE” - afterward). 

Christ’s second coming return would happen “IMMEDIATELY AFTER” that “Great Tribulation”, but with regular periods of tribulation for the saints throughout history following AFTERWARD over time.  However, none of those periods of oppression would duplicate the PARTICULAR TYPE of troubled experiences during the “Great Tribulation” which preceded them.

Zechariah 14:16-19 also prophesied  conditions in the world AFTER the AD 70 judgment on the nation of Israel - all the multiple disasters described to happen “IN THAT DAY” as listed from Zechariah chapters 12-14. 

Even Christ’s parable about the leaven gives an illustration about history and growth of the kingdom of God following the tumultuous era of AD 66-70.  It was a punch-down of the “bread dough” between risings of the “loaf” when the saints were “worn out” by having a war waged against them by the “little horn”.   Since then, the kingdom of God is now slowly going through the second rising process of leaven development until ALL the loaf is leavened by exposure to the kingdom of God’s influence. 

The same concept of incremental kingdom growth is displayed by Daniel 2’s “rock” after it simultaneously smashed all the statue back in AD 70 by destroying Satan’s existence and rule over the “kingdoms of the world”. 

At the close of AD 70, all those confiscated multiple crowns of the kingdoms of this world were given to Christ.  As in God’s Ps. 2:8 promise to the Son on the day of His resurrection and ascension, “Ask of me, and I will give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.”  Also Ps. 72:8: “Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit ALL nations.”  Which He already did.  Christ CURRENTLY wears those “many crowns” found in Rev.19:12.

I agree with you, Cobalt1959, that Preterism as it now stands in the public understanding has divisions among its proponents.  (That’s true of every denomination as well.). Those divisions need to be addressed, and some concepts need to be dumped (such as the Full Preterist idea of no physical resurrection of the saints’ individual dead bodies, for one major example).  I have done my best to pick out the true elements from the Preterist teaching (and from the other eschatological camps as well) and arrive at scripture’s true message regarding these things.  It’s a sifting process.  Tedious, but rewarding.
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: DaveW on Thu Mar 04, 2021 - 10:12:58
I'll ask the question again, since you ignored it:
Where is Jesus, right now?
That is kinda like asking where on earth Mars is. 

ANSWER: it is not on earth at all. 

And since our time/space existence is totally uncoupled from the eternal chronology, there can be no "right now" that will link the 2.
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: Cobalt1959 on Fri Mar 05, 2021 - 03:11:07
Quote
That is kinda like asking where on earth Mars is.

ANSWER: it is not on earth at all.

And since our time/space existence is totally uncoupled from the eternal chronology, there can be no "right now" that will link the 2.

Sounds like something a Hippie would say.  But you forgot to put, "Man" at the end.

It is a valid questions since Preterists claim Jesus came back in 70 AD, but then distance themselves from that part of their doctrine when they can't produce anyone from the church in that time period that wrote about, or described that event, and they refuse to either say where Jesus is now, or explain how He's back in heaven now since His supposed "return" in 70 AD would have been the Second Coming.

God is outside of time, but we are not.  That makes your last sentence a non sequitur.  We strict dimensional time framework.  God knows this and He constructed and had the Bible written for us in terms our human minds can understand.  Therefore, asking where Jesus is, right now, in our finite time period is not a nonsensical question.  I know where He is, at this point in our timeline, and so do most Bible-believing Christians.  It isn't a difficult question, nor is it unanswerable, if one's doctrine is Biblically accurate.
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: Rella on Fri Mar 05, 2021 - 07:20:22


It is a valid questions since Preterists claim Jesus came back in 70 AD, but then distance themselves from that part of their doctrine when they can't produce anyone from the church in that time period that wrote about, or described that event, and they refuse to either say where Jesus is now, or explain how He's back in heaven now since His supposed "return" in 70 AD would have been the Second Coming.



Nor are there any historians that have written of such an event.  I am referring to the Jesus returning at that time... specifically.

One who live through and wrote to tell of it was Josephus... And his recounting was strictly about the destruction end of things.

Even though not a Christian in 93 AD he wrote his  “Antiquities of the Jews” which has been  considered to be Josephus’ greatest work. It is 20 books long.

 “Antiquities” is a non-Christian, historical record that confirms a number of the accounts in the New Testament. It is in his Book XX, believed to have been written by Josephus himself, where you will read just one line, but it supports the historical existence of Jesus of Nazareth “who was called Christ.”

Even though not a Christian, Josephus  wrote about the life and death of John the Baptist, the existence of Christ, the growth of early Christianity and the fate of some of the apostles. The descriptions of these events as written by an outsider show Christians a new perspective on familiar stories.

So, it would appear that if the preterists are correct.... Jesus' retun in 70AD to fulfill what they claim is their understanding of Holy Bible scriptures was in total secrecy.
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Fri Mar 05, 2021 - 12:21:59
No, Rella and Cobalt1959, we have never said Christ’s return was in “total secrecy”.  “Every eye” of all those tribes of the land of Israel - “those who pierced Him” that were sitting captive in Jerusalem - these visually witnessed Christ’s bodily return to the Mount of Olives, and the resurrected saints entering the kingdom, with themselves shut out.  But most of these tribal witnesses died by pestilence, the sword of civil warfare, and famine that was rife in the city during those last few months.  Those last survivors, (the 97,000 Josephus said were enslaved by their Roman captors), by the close of the siege in AD 70 did not have the means to provide you in 2021 with a written record of seeing Christ’s return.  Captured prisoners don’t exactly have access to writing materials (provided they can read and write to begin with) or time to write journals on their way to die as slaves in the mines or in Roman coliseums. 

Even if a prisoner survived for a time in slavery and made such a documentation in those days, who of their slave owners would have sympathetically preserved that document, or even believed them, and saved that document in some kind of literary collection for posterity?  I think you are both having unrealistic expectations.  It’s not like those in Jerusalem back then could whip out an iPhone and record the event, you know.

The second coming return of Christ was NOT going to include His bodily remaining on earth at that time.  He was going to RETURN TO THE FATHER with the resurrected saints, and present the kingdom’s children to the Father, saying, “Behold, I and the children whom thou hast given me!”

Scripture evidence of Christ leaving this planet after His second coming in order to return to heaven with all the resurrected saints is found in John 14:3 and 17:13 & 24.  “...I will come again and RECEIVE YOU unto myself, that where I am, there ye may be also.”  Also, “And now come to thee...Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, BE WITH ME WHERE I AM, that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me.”

And for this second coming, scripture NEVER promised a so-called “translation” of living believers, that would take them to heaven at that time without their having to experience the physical death process.  No one skips out of having to physically DIE ONCE in order to experience a change to immortality and incorruptibility.  It’s a scriptural  “appointment” for all mankind to go through (Heb. 9:27).

So if you both have an idea that somehow living, translated believers at Christ’s second coming were supposed to sail slowly through the air on their way to heaven while the entire amazed world visually witnessed their gradual ascent - this is not the way scripture’s “rapture” of the (resurrected) saints was going to be fulfilled.  It’s popular perception that paints this picture, but it’s not an accurate portrayal of scripture’s account of that event - as it occurred for the bodily-resurrected saints on that Pentecost day in AD 70.

Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: DaveW on Fri Mar 05, 2021 - 12:36:08
The second coming return of Christ was NOT going to include His bodily remaining on earth at that time.  He was going to RETURN TO THE FATHER with the resurrected saints, and present the kingdom’s children to the Father, saying, “Behold, I and the children whom thou hast given me!”

Scripture evidence of Christ leaving this planet after His second coming in order to return to heaven with all the resurrected saints is found in John 14:3 and 17:13 & 24.  “...I will come again and RECEIVE YOU unto myself, that where I am, there ye may be also.”  Also, “And now come to thee...Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, BE WITH ME WHERE I AM, that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me.”

And for this second coming, scripture NEVER promised a so-called “translation” of living believers, that would take them to heaven at that time without their having to experience the physical death process.  No one skips out of having to physically DIE ONCE in order to experience a change to immortality and incorruptibility.  It’s a scriptural  “appointment” for all mankind to go through (Heb. 9:27).

So if you both have an idea that somehow living, translated believers at Christ’s second coming were supposed to sail slowly through the air on their way to heaven while the entire amazed world visually witnessed their gradual ascent - this is not the way scripture’s “rapture” of the (resurrected) saints was going to be fulfilled.  It’s popular perception that paints this picture, but it’s not an accurate portrayal of scripture’s account of that event - as it occurred for the bodily-resurrected saints on that Pentecost day in AD 70.
I would suggest, 3R, that the preterists have re-interpreted scripture to fit their own agenda; rather than let their agenda be fitted to scripture.  When scripture says "every eye," where in scripture do we get the idea that it is limited to only those involved in His ministry and murder?
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Fri Mar 05, 2021 - 13:56:15
Hi Dave W,

You may think that what I’m saying is only dictated by a preconceived agenda, but you would be mistaken.  I’ve said it before, that the only “agenda” I have, as God is my witness, is to follow so closely behind the Savior that it would be difficult to distinguish His shadow from mine.

This “every eye shall see him” phrase found in Rev. 1:7 is taken almost word for word from the Zechariah 12:10 verse.  And THAT verse is sitting smack dab in the middle of an entire, intact prophecy from Zechariah chapters 12-14 that was said to be “the burden of the word of the Lord *FOR ISRAEL*” (Zech. 12:1).  It was a prophecy of the period leading up to and including “the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem” (Zech. 12:2), which included the years AD 66-70.

This was to be specifically the eyes of “those who pierced Him” in Israel that would be seeing Christ’s visible return to that Mount of Olives.  Why do you think the hillside locality of the Mount of Olives is packed with Jewish gravesites?   Even if others don’t believe it, THEY believed Zechariah’s prophecy of the Lord l coming down on that Mount of Olives  location with His angels for the resurrection.  I guess they wanted a front-row seat for that event.  Unfortunately, most of them in that first-century generation never recognized Jesus as the Messiah who would be fulfilling that prophecy.

The one, single word that trips up modern-day interpreters (even the KJV translators) of this Rev. 1:7 verse is the Greek word “kai”.  “...and every eye shall see him, AND (“kai”) they which pierced him: and all tribes of the earth shall wail because of him.”  Typically, people understand that one connective word “kai” to act as a conjunction, meaning “in addition to”.   In other words, the majority take that to mean every one on the entire planet IN ADDITION TO the tribes of the earth would see Christ’s return.  (Actually, that’s really redundant, since the “tribes” would ALREADY be included in the number of EVERYONE on the globe seeing this return.  So that interpretation doesn’t even make sense).

That is only ONE of the possible uses of the connective word “kai” in Greek.  Another possible use of  “kai” can be in an EXPLANATORY SENSE, meaning “even” or “namely”.  Check a Greek grammar text.

One scripture example of “kai” used in this explanatory sense is in the verse, “Blessed be the God AND (“kai”) Father of our Lord Jesus Christ...” (Eph. 1:3). The word “kai” used here would be paraphrased “Blessed be the God, NAMELY (“kai”), THE FATHER of our Lord Jesus Christ...”.   Here, it can’t mean God IN ADDITION TO the Father of Christ; it’s merely specifying that the God they were writing about was not just some pagan god, but NAMELY, or SPECIFICALLY the heavenly Father of Jesus that they were giving praise to.

To use “kai” in its EXPLANATORY SENSE in Rev. 1:7, it would read “...and every eye shall see Him, (“kai”) NAMELY or SPECIFICALLY they that pierced Him: and all tribes of the earth (“tes ges” - the land of Israel) shall wail because of Him.”

Maybe all that just churns up the mud for you and doesn’t explain what I’m saying, Dave W.    I know I’m not often the easiest commenter to understand.  Sorry about that.
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: RB on Sat Mar 06, 2021 - 05:12:40
Even though not a Christian, Josephus  wrote about the life and death of John the Baptist, the existence of Christ, the growth of early Christianity and the fate of some of the apostles. The descriptions of these events as written by an outsider show Christians a new perspective on familiar stories.

So, it would appear that if the preterists are correct.... Jesus' return in 70AD to fulfill what they claim is their understanding of Holy Bible scriptures was in total secrecy.
Rella, your point is well taken and should be to 3 Resurrections, yet, folks cherry-pick what they want to see and hear (not saying that 3 Resurrections practice this, nevertheless, but he is a little guilty)~I'm no lover of a confess agnostic/atheist/unbeliever (truly, not much difference between the three of them, they all will suffer the same fate....the second death in the lake of fire.) as Josephus was, yet at least he does gives some facts, just not sure how accurate they are, for it is so true “History is written by the victors”~or, at least to pacify them, which it seems that Josephus wanted to be on good terms with the Romans to save his own ....!  But, I truly have no clue since I was not there and neither was anyone else that I have spoken to. The WORD OF THE LIVING GOD is the only source of truth for us to truly believe in, and I will so help me God.
Quote from:  
I’ve said it before, that the only “agenda” I have, as God is my witness, is to follow so closely behind the Savior that it would be difficult to distinguish His shadow from mine.
The only way that's possible is for you, myself, and any other man to speak forth the oracles of God and not use "extra-biblical" information to make God's word seems to be compatible to our doctrine that NEEDS extra-bible help in order to give our doctrine some support, or credibility for one to take the bait as being scriptural.
Quote from: 3 Resurrections on: Yesterday at 13:56:15
This “every eye shall see him” phrase found in Rev. 1:7 is taken almost word for word from the Zechariah 12:10 verse.  And THAT verse is sitting smack dab in the middle of an entire, intact prophecy from Zechariah chapters 12-14 that was said to be “the burden of the word of the Lord *FOR ISRAEL*” (Zech. 12:1).  It was a prophecy of the period leading up to and including “the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem” (Zech. 12:2), which included the years AD 66-7
I have (maybe with you) went into depth on Zachariah 12-14, let me see if I can locate those posts so as to keep me from going back over them again to save time. I looked for a few minutes and cannot find them.~so I'll be back and bring the link with me so we can ONCE again go over them.

 
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: Rella on Sat Mar 06, 2021 - 06:03:10


  No, Rella and Cobalt1959, we have never said Christ’s return was in “total secrecy”.

IT HAD to be.


 “Every eye” of all those tribes of the land of Israel - “those who pierced Him” that were sitting captive in Jerusalem - these visually witnessed Christ’s bodily return to the Mount of Olives, and the resurrected saints entering the kingdom, with themselves shut out.

By whose account. There was certainly no written record or that would be your proof... but there also was no word of mouth from these people YOU claim "visually witnessed" .

ERGO.... Total secrecy or else someone would have spilled the beans. But instead total silence on this idea until the first Catholic Jesuit Luis Alcazar (1554–1613) in his Investigation of the Hidden Sense of the Apocalypse. Then Hugo Grotius (1583–1645) of Holland was “the first Protestant recruit to Preterism. And not to be left out the father of American Preterism is clearly Moses Stuart (1780–1852) of Andover Seminary who “introduced Preterism into the United States about 1842

All these centuries... nearly 1600 years until  a Jesuit ( I do hope @Amo is seeing this) managed to come up with this idea.

From NO written record and no word of mouth. Even one small voice telling his brother or his wife would have travelled far enough that someone might have said "Hey, do you know what looney Harry said in his pillow talk the other night??"

So it was left up to someone who drew a conclusion based on how he saw things written in the bible... and that blossomed.


 But most of these tribal witnesses died by pestilence, the sword of civil warfare, and famine that was rife in the city during those last few months.

But mum was the word.... right?


 Those last survivors, (the 97,000 Josephus said were enslaved by their Roman captors), by the close of the siege in AD 70 did not have the means to provide you in 2021 with a written record of seeing Christ’s return.  Captured prisoners don’t exactly have access to writing materials (provided they can read and write to begin with) or time to write journals on their way to die as slaves in the mines or in Roman coliseums. 

I never specifically asked for a written record. I did ask and still do for one person in 97,000 who talked about it... even in jail with another prisoner that was over heard by a guard who went laughing and spreading gossip about the prisoners to others....

That would have been too juicy a bit to keep to themselves ESPECIALLY as they would certainly have said and done anything to prove the "Christian" sympathizers were as loony as a dog baying at the moon. ::tippinghat::

Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: Rella on Sat Mar 06, 2021 - 06:08:37
I would suggest, 3R, that the preterists have re-interpreted scripture to fit their own agenda;

BINGO!  And that was started by none other the a Jesuit ,  Spanish-Catholic Jesuit Luis Alcazar (1554–1613) , who have their own agenda of twisting things for whatever their root cause is.

And make no mistake... They DO have a cause.
Title: Re: Preterism
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Sat Mar 06, 2021 - 08:22:37
Rella, you asked “by whose account” we are to believe that the tribes of Israel visually witnessed Christ’s first-century return.  That would be ZECHARIAH, and CHRIST’S testimony that I particularly just mentioned.  PLUS *ALL* THE PROPHETS, since Peter on the day of Pentecost said that every one of them wrote or spoke something about those “last days” that the Apostles were experiencing.

I would say that if you can’t believe Christ, Moses, or the prophets, that you would not be convinced, even were someone to rise from the dead to tell you about it.

RB, this evidence that I’m giving is NOT “extra biblical” as you say.  I usually make a special effort to absolutely saturate every comment I have written with pertinent scripture in regard to these things.  I quote Josephus but rarely (who was *providentially* given a front-row seat to those first-century events).  And other Preterists I quote almost never. 

Rella, on your political comments, you maintain a healthy distrust of the modern- day mainstream media.  Lies and misinformation prevail in those channels that undoubtedly have an agenda.  Well, try to do the same thing here.  The “mainstream” in eschatology has presented you with their own bias-based generalized view of Preterism and its origin.  Much of this is lies and misinformation also.  Try at least looking into the Francis Gumerlock book I mentioned that gives a historical record of Preterist type doctrinal positions and proponents from the days of the early church until now.  One should research BOTH sides of the question about Preterist-type origins to be fair.

In Christ’s parables about the “murderers” of the king’s son (Jesus), He told us the fate of those tribes of Israel who “would not have this man to reign over us”.  As well as “burning up their city” (i.e. Jerusalem), those “murderers” - who pierced Him - were to be brought before the king who would tell His servants to “SLAY THEM BEFORE ME”.  The Pharisees knew Jesus was speaking about themselves, and hated Him all the more for predicting the means of their death in that generation.

Dead men tell no tales.