Author Topic: Preterism  (Read 2256 times)

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Offline Amo

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Preterism
« on: Sun Dec 06, 2020 - 09:43:43 »
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« Last Edit: Sun Dec 06, 2020 - 10:18:27 by Amo »

Offline Amo

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #1 on: Sun Dec 06, 2020 - 09:46:24 »
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« Last Edit: Sun Dec 06, 2020 - 10:18:46 by Amo »

Offline Amo

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #2 on: Sun Dec 06, 2020 - 09:51:54 »
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« Last Edit: Sun Dec 06, 2020 - 10:19:33 by Amo »

Offline Amo

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #3 on: Sun Dec 06, 2020 - 09:53:43 »
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« Last Edit: Sun Dec 06, 2020 - 10:20:02 by Amo »

Offline Amo

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #4 on: Sun Dec 06, 2020 - 09:56:44 »
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« Last Edit: Sun Dec 06, 2020 - 10:20:31 by Amo »

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #4 on: Sun Dec 06, 2020 - 09:56:44 »



Offline Amo

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #5 on: Sun Dec 06, 2020 - 10:06:03 »
Well, this was a bad idea. I missed one of RB's short posts, and now adds are popping up in the middle of the copied and pasted posts. To late now. I'll attempt to finish what I started. Sorry RB, I''l put that post in next.

Offline Amo

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #6 on: Sun Dec 06, 2020 - 10:08:24 »
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« Last Edit: Sun Dec 06, 2020 - 10:21:05 by Amo »

Offline Amo

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #7 on: Sun Dec 06, 2020 - 10:18:00 »
This is going to take to long, I'm running out of time. I'm going to delete the above copied and pasted posts, and just ask all involved to continue the debate regarding Preterism in this thread. Thank you.
« Last Edit: Sun Dec 06, 2020 - 10:21:25 by Amo »

Offline RB

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #8 on: Sun Dec 06, 2020 - 14:14:23 »
Quote from:  3 Resurrections Reply #78 on: Today at 07:49:17 Re: Kings of the earth
No, RB, I am NOT “deceitfully adding to God’s word.  No “shame” accrues to me for using the YLT translation of this verse, which acknowledges just how soon those Revelation prophecies were to take place (as presently near in John’s days).

The KJV version (which I know you hold to as the ONLY permissible version to use) has missed the full implication of the Greek “mellei” term in Rev. 1:19.  Four translations at least do NOT miss the imminence of the “mellei” term in Rev. 1:19 for Revelation’s prophetic fulfillments, even if the KJV translators were reluctant to do so.  You are crippled in your understanding if you are devoted solely to the one KJV.

Here it is in the YLT for those who, unlike you, do not limit themselves to just one version.

“Write the things that thou hast seen, and the things that are, and the things that are ABOUT TO COME after these things;”

What really bothers me is that you still have not found a moment to study Gods definition of what an “AT HAND” prophecy means in Ezekiel 12:21-28. This requires no Greek whatever, and clearly brackets all of  Revelation’s unsealed, written prophecies of the future (from the very beginning of the book to the very end) to a time that was PRESENTLY EXISTING in John’s days.  Yet you cannot seem to face this definition that God Himself gives you in Ezekiel 12:21-28 and apply it consistently to Revelation 1:3 and 22:10.

I know you are a busy man and you struggle with weariness, but as long as I have been encouraging you to address this point, you seem very reluctant to do so.  Why is that?
Red high light is mine for discussion~RB.  Be bother no more~let me share with you and others my thoughts on Ezekiel 12:21-28.
Quote from: Ezekiel who was carried away into Babylon somewhere around 593 B. C.
Ezekiel 12:21-28~"And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Son of man, what is that proverb that ye have in the land of Israel, saying, The days are prolonged, and every vision faileth? Tell them therefore, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will make this proverb to cease, and they shall no more use it as a proverb in Israel; but say unto them, The days are at hand, and the effect of every vision. For there shall be no more any vain vision nor flattering divination within the house of Israel. For I am the LORD: I will speak, and the word that I shall speak shall come to pass; it shall be no more prolonged: for in your days, O rebellious house, will I say the word, and will perform it, saith the Lord GOD. Again the word of the LORD came to me, saying, Son of man, behold, they of the house of Israel say, The vision that he seeth is for many days to come, and he prophesieth of the times that are far off. Therefore say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; There shall none of my words be prolonged any more, but the word which I have spoken shall be done, saith the Lord GOD."
3 Resurrections, when I have read this ( and I have read this just I never posted anything on it because I truly did not see a need to do so, but doing so at your request. ) a few times over the years understanding that the phrase~The days are at hand, I have for the most part understood that phrase as it is used in its context, which always drives our understanding of any subject under consideration.

When I read Ezekiel 12, my mind connects with 2nd Peter 3, because in both places there were mockers concerning God's witness in fulfilling his word concerning his judgments that he promised to bring upon the wicked, they were thinking on terms of how THEY WOULD JUDGE TIME in relation to God's promises of bringing to pass what he said he would do. Once any man does this, his doctrine and his conclusion will end up in error.
Quote from: Peter
2nd Peter 3:1-8~"This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
Truly, even in our own manner of judging TIME, what is two thousand years? Very little!

The phrase "At hand" in the word of God is used thirty-three times, most in the NT, and each time the context will show us the sense of it which we should understand AT HAND in the context in which we see the phrase. A few examples would be good to consider: Zephaniah 1:7~"Hold thy peace at the presence of the Lord GOD: for the day of the LORD is at hand: for the LORD hath prepared a sacrifice, he hath bid his guests. This is YET TO TAKE PLACE per Revelation 19!

Matthew 3:2~"And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. It was ACTUALLY ALREADY THERE and men were pressing into it!

Matthew 10:7~"And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Matthew 26:18~ "And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples."  Just a day away!

Matthew 26:45~"Then cometh he to his disciples, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: behold, the hour is at hand, and the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners."  At hand here was THEN AND NOW.

Matthew 26:46~"Rise, let us be going: behold, he is at hand that doth betray me."Minutes" away.

Mark 1:15~"And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel." At hand meant ALREADY THERE.

Luke 21:30~"When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.  Within a short season of weeks!

Luke 21:31~"So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand." The kingdom of God in its final stage is at hand when we see the spiritual signs of Matthew 24; Mark 13 and Luke 21, etc. being fulfilled before our eyes.

John 2:13~"And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem,~at hand here is within a day or so. There are more.

When I read....
Quote
Revelation 1:1~"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:"
And compare it with....
Quote
Revelation 22:6,7~And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done. Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book."
Then I UNDERSTAND that ALL from Revelation 1:1 to Revelation 22 will SHORTY COME TO PASS just as God said it would~INCLUDING the Great White Throne Judgement, and the New Earth and Heavens. CONTEXT drives my understanding, not what other men teach.

Mystery Baylon has NOT as of yet been destroy~and in the holy scriptures, Mystery Babylon is THIS WORLD SYSTEM per Isaiah 13~consisting of its religion, science, commerce, and entertainments, etc. that is antichrist, she has NOT YET BEEN BURNED WITH FIRE but shall soon be as promised by Him who cannot lie!   As far as God and time relates to each other...... He just spoke those words two days ago about when John wrote Revelation.  Selah.

BUT, I will say this~God also knows how we consider time and by him saying in his word "Behold, I come quickly" then we who are his children KNOW it will be quickly at a time when men will not be looking for him, in a twinkling of an eye.

« Last Edit: Mon Dec 07, 2020 - 03:59:26 by RB »

Offline RB

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #9 on: Sun Dec 06, 2020 - 14:15:19 »
This is going to take to long, I'm running out of time. I'm going to delete the above copied and pasted posts, and just ask all involved to continue the debate regarding Preterism in this thread. Thank you.
No problem my friend I have you covered.

Offline Amo

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #10 on: Sun Dec 06, 2020 - 21:07:19 »
Tanks.

Offline RB

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #11 on: Mon Dec 07, 2020 - 04:32:59 »
Quote from: 3 Resurrections from the thread Re: Kings of the earth Reply #75 on: Sat Dec 05, 2020 - 15:38:09
And you err in thinking scripture says ALL of those souls mentioned in Rev. 20:4 who had reigned with Christ would rise from the dead in the First Resurrection.  It was only the “REMNANT (loipoi) of the dead” who did so as the “First-fruits” along with Christ.  Matthew 27:52-53 says it was “MANY” who rose with Christ the First-fruits.  Rev. 14:4 says that the “First-fruits” numbered 144,000, and Rev. 7 says they were from Jewish tribes only (from those graves around Jerusalem that broke open in the earthquake when Christ died).

The number of 144,000 is an impressive amount, but it is not ALL who had been listed in Rev. 20:4; it’s only PART of their number - a “REMNANT” of that list of dead ones.  This is the “REMNANT” who “lived again” in the “First resurrection” when the resurrecting Christ brought them with Him out of the grave.

And it is YOU, Amo, who mistakenly wants to hang onto the idea that God did not destroy Satan when He promised to in Romans 16:20.  There are many such proofs in scripture of when the demonic realm was burned up long ago, but you either just gloss over them, or you aren’t interested.  The REAL enemy at present is no further away than our own deceptive hearts.

I have never taken the position that there is no prophetic guidance from scripture for us in these New Covenant ages.  Have you missed where I have spoken on this topic of what we presently can expect until Christ’s final return?  I have not been silent on this.

And apparently you have also missed Rev. 1:19 where John was told to write “the things which thou HAST seen” (PAST events John already knew about), and “the things which ARE” (presently happening back then in John’s days), “and the things which are ABOUT TO BE hereafter” (the NEAR future for John’s first-century readers).  These prophecies of the near future that John wrote down were ALL fulfilled soon after John wrote about them.  Those he was forbidden to write down are applicable to us in times AFTER AD 70 (Rev. 10:4).  Though John doesn’t describe the content of these unwritten prophecies, yet we know from other scripture a few things we can expect in our future.  And they are probably not what you have been taught to expect.
You have several errors in this short post, which goes with the territory of one major false doctrine bringing with it many other unscriptural positions.

First, you said:
Quote from: 3 Resurrections to Amo
And you err in thinking scripture says ALL of those souls mentioned in Rev. 20:4 who had reigned with Christ would rise from the dead in the First Resurrection.
Well, pretty sure all three of us have a different understanding of escathology~so, I will allow Amo to answer for himself, but I do want to at least show you err greatly in saying Revelation 20:4 is a bodily resurrection when John called those living with Christ, who had not as of yet received their glorified body the FIRST RESURRECTION, the second being a bodily resurrection for ALL in the last day! I have already looked at this in the other thread  Re: Kings of the earth. As I said above~"And you err in thinking scripture says ALL of those souls mentioned in Rev. 20:4 who had reigned with Christ would rise from the dead in the First Resurrection: "......the reason you err is by the very fact they were THEN REIGNING with Christ BEFORE they had received their glorified body, PROVES you are so wrong~and it also proves the first resurrection is spiritual in nature, not a bodliy resurrection.
Quote from: 3 Resurrections to Amo
Matthew 27:52-53 says it was “MANY” who rose with Christ the First-fruits.  Rev. 14:4 says that the “First-fruits” numbered 144,000, and Rev. 7 says they were from Jewish tribes only (from those graves around Jerusalem that broke open in the earthquake when Christ died).
Many of the saints who slept graves were opened and came forth and went and appeared unto many. It did not say all, but many, and it does not say anything else about them as far as what happened next after they came forth out of the grave.

I'm going to stop and come back and look at this more before moving on to my next point, if I do not stop, the post will be too long for the average reader, which is about ninety-five percent. later today I want to add to those saints who slept and arose when Jesus did. Then we will briefly look at the 144,000 which you say were from the Jewish tribes only but God said otherwise, making your position in serious jeopardy, very serious.  

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #12 on: Mon Dec 07, 2020 - 11:05:24 »
Hey RB,

I’m borrowing from holiday workroom deadlines time to post this, so I can’t be as thorough as I would ordinarily choose. 

You and I have gone around and around before about the definition of the “First Resurrection” and neither of us is changing.  It is MORE than just a spiritual awakening of the soul to life by the Spirit, which happens on a case-by-case basis, spread out over all of history.  (This spiritual awakening to life is actually when the saints ever since creation can begin to “reign in life” during their natural lifetime on earth, as Romans 5:17 expresses it.) 

Rather than being a repeated process spread out over history, the “First resurrection”, as Rev. 20:4 described it, comes at one particular point in time on the calendar - at the ONE-TIME EXPIRATION DATE of the 1,000 years.   

I Cor. 15:22-23 also described this same concept of two particular resurrection events on the calendar, and the order in which they would occur. “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.  But every man IN HIS OWN ORDER” (tagmati, which is a military term describing the ordered rank of classes that troops of a company are arranged in.)  “Christ the FIRST-fruits” (Birth order is vital - Christ MUST be the FIRST IN RANK and in TIME.)  “AFTERWARD” (following Christ’s of the First Resurrection that occurred in AD 33) “they that are Christ’s at his coming.”  This would be the SECOND resurrection event taking place in time after that of Christ in AD 33.

We know that Christ as one of the First-fruits of absolute necessity MUST have been the “FIRST-born” of those First-fruits to ascend to the Father in a glorified, resurrected body, (thereby opening the “matrix” for His brethren to follow afterwards).  This meant that those Matt. 27:52-53 First-fruits saints that He made alive and brought with him out of the grave had to “remain” on earth afterwards until the second resurrection event, when these “alive and remaining” ones joined their “fellow-servants and brethren” to meet the Lord together in the air. 

Many of these other “fellow-servants and brethren” in John’s days were “ABOUT TO BE KILLED” (mellontes - soon to happen), as some of the Matthew 27:52-63 saints had been - under persecution (Rev. 6:11-Int.).

You really, really are crippled, RB, when you refuse to consider the meaning of the Greek terms.  It confuses your whole interpretation.

And I already know your opinion of the NUMBERED group of 144,000 from the Jewish tribes. You think they are the very same as the great UN-numbered group from many nations, kindreds, peoples, and tongues  which John saw AFTERWARD.  You’re mistaken.  There is clearly a dividing line in time between these two different categories of saints; Jewish people from the tribes John  listed for the 144,000, and AFTERWARDS, *NO NUMBER* is given to those coming from MANY DIFFERENT PEOPLE GROUPS.

Offline RB

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #13 on: Mon Dec 07, 2020 - 14:47:01 »
Hey RB,

I’m borrowing from holiday workroom deadlines time to post this, so I can’t be as thorough as I would ordinarily choose. 
I know that this is the busiest time of the year for you, and I DO NOT expect a soon answer back~I do know that you WILL answer at a convenient time, it is in your DNA, trust me, I know. The Lord be you and help you to meet all of your deadlines. Post when you can. I'll have a backlog waiting for you.  ::smile:: I DO LOVE your spirit and your love for God~regardless of our differences concerning eschatology.
« Last Edit: Mon Dec 07, 2020 - 14:50:31 by RB »

Offline Amo

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #14 on: Sun Dec 13, 2020 - 11:16:57 »
Sorry for the delay in responses, busy time of year.

Quote
Not sure, Amo, why you think it’s necessary to split hairs about Jesus’s death “AT Jerusalem” being different than His being crucified “outside the gate” of Jerusalem.  It’s the same thing.  The “place of the skull” actually IS the head of the Mount of Olives on the eastern side of Jerusalem.  Tradition can be and often is mistaken regarding landmarks.   Tour guides of Jerusalem’s sites are not infallible.

The main access road coming from “Ros” or the “head” of the Mount of Olives led from the crest of the Mount of Olives downhill to an eastern gate into the city.  The Romans crucified Jesus at a point where all travelers into the city would likely pass and view His punishment taking place.  Helped to instill fear and submission in the populace.

Do you remember when King David had to flee Jerusalem during Absalom’s rebellion?  II Samuel 15:30 says that “David went up by the ascent of Mount Olivet, and wept as he went up...”.  “And it came to pass that when David was come to the top of the Mount, where he worshipped God, behold Hushai the Archite came to meet him...” (v. 32).  Then in the next chapter 16:1, it says that “when David was a little past the top of the hill behold Ziba the servant of Mephibosheth  met him...”(it’s “past Ros” in the LXX - which means “past the head” or “chief part” in Greek).


The place of Christ’s crucifixion is important to our conversation because you identify the great city of Rev 11:8 as Jerusalem, even though the verse itself specifically applies a spiritual application to it. If the verse is meant to be taken literally, then it would have simply stated it was Jerusalem. Or to be more literally accurate, it would have stated as other scripture does, that Christ was crucified outside the gates of the city.

 The true identity of the great city mentioned no doubt lies within the definition of a city that is spiritually akin to Sodom or Egypt. It’s identification then, can no doubt be found in scriptural references to these infamous cities, and their connection to either old covenant Israel and or Jerusalem, or new covenant Israel and or Jerusalem which is all in Christ Jesus. Christ’s church is now the Israel of God, as the NT scriptures specify, therefore has she been given all the attributes of the same.

Exod 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: 6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

1 Pet 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

1 Pet 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.


Israel was said to be a peculiar people of God, a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation.  The Church of Christ is given all the same attributes.

Hosea 1:9 Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God. 10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? 25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. 26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. 27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.


Though many of Israel would not be God’s people, yet the number of the children of Israel would be as the sand of the sea.  This would be accomplished when those who were not called God’s people, should be called the sons of the living God.  The Church is composed of those who were not the people of God, who became the people of God. They are the children of promise that are counted for the seed, which are the children of God. They are no longer strangers, but fellow citizens with the saints and of the very household of God.

Deut 7:6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

1 Pet 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; 16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.


As Israel was called to be a holy people unto God, so the Church is called to be a holy people unto God.

Deut 4:20 But the LORD hath taken you, and brought you forth out of the iron furnace, even out of Egypt, to be unto him a people of inheritance, as ye are this day.

Eph 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,


AS Israel were a people of inheritance to God, so the Church are a people of inheritance to God.

Jer 31:10 Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock.

John 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.


As the Lord was the shepherd of Israel, so the Lord is the shepherd of the Church.

Isa 45:17 But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


As Israel was saved with everlasting salvation, so the Church is saved with eternal salvation.

Lev 26:11 And I will set my tabernacle among you: and my soul shall not abhor you. 12 And I will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be my people.

Exod 25:8 And let them make me a sanctuary;that I may dwell among them.

Exod 29:44 And I will sanctify the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar: I will sanctify also both Aaron and his sons, to minister to me in the priest's office.
45 And I will dwell among the children of Israel, and will be their God.
46 And they shall know that I am the LORD their God, that brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, that I may dwell among them: I am the LORD their God.

John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 21 But he spake of the temple of his body. 22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

2 Cor 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, 18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.


As God placed His temple in the midst of Israel, that He might dwell among them, so Christ became the living temple and dwelt among us. God became one of us, and therefore the living temple of God in human flesh. Christ’s church is now both corporately and individually the temple of God and body of Christ(1 Cor 3:16&17, 6:19, Eph 2: 19-22, 1Cor 12:12-31).  Now all who are in Christ are truly literal flesh and blood children of God.

Isa 54: 5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.

Jer 3:14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:

Hosea 2:19 And I will betroth thee unto me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies.

Jer 6:2 I have likened the daughter of Zion to a comely and delicate woman.

Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. 25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. 28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. 29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: 30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. 31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. 33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

2 Cor 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? 2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. 4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.


As God was an husband to the nation of Israel, so now is the Church married to God in and through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. As a man and a woman become one flesh in marriage, so humanity and God became one flesh in and through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ who literally became one with our human flesh in order to live the life we could not live, and die the death we could not die. 

Thus all who are in Christ are the literal flesh and blood children of God.  These things the old covenant nation of Israel only pointed to, have been accomplished upon us, the new covenant Israel of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.  PRAISE GOD’S PURE, RIGHTEOUS, HOLY, UNDEFILED, AND AWESOME NAME IN AND THROUGH HIS SON JESUS CHRIST FOR OUR UNDESERVED SALVATION AND EXALTATION AS THE LITERAL SONS AND DAUGHTERS OF GOD. Now all who are in Christ are the Israel of God, whether Jew or Gentile.

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Those who do not understand, or will not accept this biblical truth, will not ever properly understand biblical prophecy or the book of Revelation written for the new covenant Israel of God in Christ Jesus.

Now back to the topic of that great city, which is spiritually called Sodom and Egypt. The scriptures have many references to Sodom and Egypt in connection with Israel and Jerusalem in the old testament. Even referring to Israel as Sodom during times of national apostasy(Isa 1:9&10, 3:9, Jer 23:14), and a great deal about their whoredoms and harlotry in committing the abominations of Egypt during such times as well(Jer. Chap. 42, 44, & Eze 20, & 23). Their sins and apostasy were practicing the abominations of Sodom and Egypt in the worship of their false gods, and turning back to and depending upon Egypt during times of crisis or war instead of God. Shall we not bring the same accusation against them in rejecting and crucifying Jesus Christ their Messiah, who is King of kings and Lord of lords? Did they not forsake God once again, and turn to the powers that be of this earth in His place, to destroy Him from their midst? Yes, they chose the power of the Roman empire over their own Messiah to remove His rebuking witness and testimony against their own pride and selfishness. Choosing the powers that be of this world and the evil one who claims it in defiance of God, they finally filled their cup of rejection and lost the kingdom of God forever.

Mat 21:33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country: 34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it. 35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another. 36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise. 37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. 38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. 39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him. 40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? 41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. 42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? 43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. 44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

Nevertheless, the remnant of Israel accepted their Messiah and established the new covenant Israel of God in Christ Jesus. The book of Revelation was written for God’s servants of the new covenant era, the churches of Christ Jesus our Lord, not Jerusalem or Israel of old who rejected their Messiah and lost the Kingdom of God to those alone who could ever produce the fruits thereof of by faith in Christ Jesus(Rom 7:4-6, Gal 5:22-25, Eph 5:9&10). Thus does the book begin in addressing Christ’s servants and the seven churches. Its prophecies are not concerning Israel or Jerusalem of the old covenant, but rather spiritual Israel or Jerusalem of the new covenant, consisting of all in Christ Jesus our Lord. Who now compose the spiritual temple of God through whom the the Holy Spirit of God works unto reconciliation between God and humanity through the gospel of Jesus Christ our Lord.

The reference therefore to the great city in Rev 11:8 is not concerning literal Jerusalem of old where our Lord was crucified, but rather the apostasy of new covenant spiritual Israel, who crucified our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ afresh in committing the same sins and rebellion as old covenant Israel or Jerusalem before them. Who still to this day do as apostate Israel of old in adopting and practicing the abominations of Sodom and Egypt, while leaning upon the powers that be of this world above and over the power of the Holy Spirit of God. Not to mention the crucifixion of Christ over and again at every mass, claiming to create the literal flesh and blood of our Savior at each one, to be consumed unto salvation by the deceived. I speak of course of that great city of the book of Revelation, Babylon. Identified throughout history by authentic Christianity as the Roman Catholic church, which is verily an amalgamation of ancient pagan religion and apostate “Christianity” dependent upon the power of the state for sustenance and establishment.

Therefore is she also the main instrument in adopting and amalgamating all the religions, politics, philosophies, sciences, trades, crafts, arts, merchants, and entertainers of this world into one unified front in rebellion against God under her ancient banner. Being herself the manifestation of the body and temple of the evil one, as  apposed to Christ’s church, the body and temple of God. These two peoples, temples, bodies, cities, kingdoms, harvests, or what have you, will continue the battle which started in heaven under the rebellion of Lucifer until the end. When our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will return as King of kings and Lord of lord’s unto judgment upon and for all. The harvests are almost ready to be reaped and the rebellion ended once and for all(Rev 14:6-20).

Rev 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. 8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. 19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

Rev 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters: 2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. 3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. 4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: 5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
……………………………………………………………………………………….
18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Rev 18:1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. 2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. 3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. 4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. 5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. 6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double. 7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow. 8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her. 9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning, 10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come. 11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more: 12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble, 13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men. 14 And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all. 15 The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing, 16 And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls! 17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off, 18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city! 19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate. 20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her. 21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all. 22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee; 23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived. 24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

No 3Resurrections, all of the above testimony is not regarding literal Israel or Jerusalem of old. It is not the history of the destruction of literal Jerusalem which was already foretold by our Lord when here among us in the flesh, and which likely happened before the book of Revelation was written. It was written to and for the church of Christ during this new covenant era. God always provides prophetic testimony for His people to guide them through the events of history as they unfold, that they might know where they stand and what their duty is for any particular time in relation to the same. He has not left His people without prophetic guidance for the last two thousand years. And the battle for the souls of humanity between God and Satan is not and has not been over for the past two thousand years either. As the evil one himself would have all believe. The NT scriptures conclusively refute this deception authored by the evil one himself.

Literal Israel or Jerusalem never fulfilled the details of global influence, confederacy, and conformity the great city described in the book of Revelation accomplishes. She never even came in contact with all the kings of the earth during her existence, let alone committed fornication with all of them. Not to mention all the merchants, tradesman, craftsman, entertainers and what have you, of the world either. None of this was even possible before God set up and determined the universal nature of the kingdoms of God and man in this world in this new covenant era. Which itself was instituted in order to allow for all decisions to be made in a single generation, that an end might be  accomplished through the same. Therefore is the gospel commission unto all the world until the end, and BABYLON THE GREAT’S endeavors are of a global nature of forced submission until the end. So be it according to God’s design and revealed prophetic will.

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
« Last Edit: Sun Dec 13, 2020 - 11:20:03 by Amo »

Offline Amo

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #15 on: Sun Dec 13, 2020 - 11:21:01 »
Quote
This “head”, or top of Mount Olivet is the “place of the skull” where Jesus was crucified.    opposite the temple on the east side of Jerusalem. It’s also where Jesus bodily returned and stood in judgment on the city of Jerusalem in AD 70.  He gathered His resurrected saints to meet Him in the air then, and returned with them to present them to the Father in heaven.  A fitting site to choose for returning victoriously to the scene of the crime against Himself, don’t you think?  Poetic justice.

Jesus did not return in AD 70, or resurrect anyone at that time. Please do supply any historical evidence or record of such if any actually exists anywhere.

Mat 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. 51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

We know of the above resurrection which the apostles most certainly knew of as well. Yet they still preached the resurrection of the saved, at Christ’s personal return. Do you mean to tell me that this actually happened in AD 70 and Christians of the time made no historical record of it, nor preached what you do now? BALONEY! This most important event would absolutely be recorded and preached far and wide as an enormous event in the history of Christianity. It simply was and is not, and for very good reason. It never happened, it was never predicted to happen at such a time in scripture, and it contradicts scriptural testimony concerning said resurrection. Neither Jesus or the apostles ever spoke of His return unto a resurrection of old covenant saints alone, before the resurrection of the saints of the new covenant era described in the NT scriptures for us in great detail. If your claimed resurrection did take place, who among the living was taken, and who were left, according to Christ’s testimony in the following verses? Why didn’t those who were left leave a testimony of this event for all future peoples and especially Christians to know of? It never happened.


Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. 9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. 32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. 43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. 44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. 45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. 48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; 49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; 50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, 51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

It is not even possible that all of the events described above could have happened between Christ’s testimony concerning the same, and AD 70. Nor has the gospel been preached in all the world yet. Nor has Christ returned in the manner described above as lightening seen from east to west, seen by all of humanity, as all the tribes of the earth behold the same. Nor have any of the living been taken with Christ and others left as the above describes. You account is false, and identified as such by Christ Himself in the above quote. For you do testify that Christ has already come but most did not see Him, as Christ testified false prophets would claim before His return.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

No event such as that described above or anything even remotely like it, has happened on this earth yet. The burden is upon you to prove it has happened if you can. Or are you preaching a secret limited rapture?

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #16 on: Sun Dec 13, 2020 - 14:07:25 »
Amo, every one of your objections listed above I have covered at length on this GCF website, with stacks of biblical proof listed for each point.  However, if it is your habit to mainly participate on this particular 7th Day Adventist forum and not the rest of the forums, I can understand why you may have missed what I wrote.

The rapture teaching that I read from I Thessalonians 4 and I Corinthians 15 did NOT include a translation-type experience for the saints who hadn’t died yet.  No such promise was EVER given to us.  ALL saints must die the ONE TIME, as Hebrews 9:27 requires. 

Therefore, no ordinary living saints (who hadn’t died yet) were ever going to be raptured at the resurrection.  Paul spoke of the “living and REMAINING” saints - saints who had ALREADY BEEN MADE ALIVE BY A RESURRECTION (those such as the Matt. 27:52-53 saints), but who had “remained” on earth in that resurrected state.  These who had been made alive earlier would join all the newly-resurrected saints to meet the Lord together in the air in the promised AD 70 resurrection. 

And I have already given archaeological evidence as well as historical evidence of the AD 70 resurrection at Christ’s return.  Do you need links for this?

And there is ample scripture proof that the gospel was preached unto “every creature under heaven”, and “in all the world” before AD 70’s resurrection at Christ’s return.  Do you need a list of these references?  Since that time, the gospel is still being presented to the nations at large, and will continue until the final THIRD resurrection in our future.

And yes, every event included in the lengthy Matt. 24 passage you gave above most certainly came to pass in that first-century generation, just as Christ promised.  They happened either just before, or during the “great tribulation” period from AD 66-70 - which “great tribulation’s” severity has never again been duplicated or surpassed after AD 70 in the rest of human history.  And we know that Christ was to “IMMEDIATELY” return after that first-century “great tribulation” (Matt. 24:29).  So that means His second-coming return is long past, with periods of various tribulations for the saints occurring after Christ’s AD 70 return.

Revelation, as you have stated yourself Amo,  is a book addressed to the new-covenant saints.  These were “ABOUT TO SUFFER” (Rev. 2:10) at the hands of their first-century persecutors (which included the antagonistic Jews as well as Nero and a wrathful Satan who had only a “short time” left to operate).  These who would SOON suffer and who were “ABOUT TO BE KILLED” (Rev.6:11) at that time would “SPEEDILY” (Luke 18:8) be vindicated by the AD 70 fall of “Babylon” (the old city of Jerusalem, and the antagonistic priesthood which had been oppressing the believers). 

This fall of Babylon / Old Jerusalem was going to take only “one hour” to accomplish - by any accounts, only a brief period of time (Rev. 18:17).  The “kings of the earth” / high priests of Israel (NOT the other “kings of the whole habitable world”) would stand “afar off”, fearfully watching this takedown of their former “holy city” (Rev. 18:9).  In Josephus we are given the names of these few “kings of the earth” / high priests who bewailed and lamented the dying city.  These few former high priests and some of the high priests’ sons managed to escape Jerusalem and were sent by Titus to the more removed location called Gophna to wait out the war.  Titus later used these former high priests, along with Josephus outside the walls of Jerusalem, to personally plead with their fellow Jews to surrender to the Romans before it was too late (Wars 6.2.2-3).

These were all first-century events, Amo.  They were presently “AT HAND” then, and are  ancient history at present.  You can’t expect the vast multitudes of persecuted, DEAD Christians of that era to make a detailed record of the resurrection for your perusal.  After all, they were raptured from earth to heaven along with the returning Christ, without time to sit down and make that personal record of events that you demand. 

The rest of the first-century believers obeyed Christ’s instructions to FLEE Jerusalem and Judea once they saw Jerusalem encircled with armies.  They were not personally around to be an eye-witness of Christ’s Mount of Olives return, where all the resurrected saints converged.  They fled to Pella in the Decapolis, among other distant locations. 

What those believers did have was the record JESUS gave them of when He would return and the signs attending that return, before all that generation had died.  Though they didn’t personally see this return, (since only “those who pierced Him” would be the eye-witnesses), Jesus’ prophetic words were sufficient evidence for them, and should be sufficient evidence for YOU.

Doubting Thomases galore on this website...
« Last Edit: Sun Dec 13, 2020 - 14:14:20 by 3 Resurrections »

Offline Amo

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #17 on: Sat Dec 19, 2020 - 14:16:53 »
Quote
Amo, every one of your objections listed above I have covered at length on this GCF website, with stacks of biblical proof listed for each point.  However, if it is your habit to mainly participate on this particular 7th Day Adventist forum and not the rest of the forums, I can understand why you may have missed what I wrote.

The rapture teaching that I read from I Thessalonians 4 and I Corinthians 15 did NOT include a translation-type experience for the saints who hadn’t died yet.  No such promise was EVER given to us.  ALL saints must die the ONE TIME, as Hebrews 9:27 requires. 

Therefore, no ordinary living saints (who hadn’t died yet) were ever going to be raptured at the resurrection.  Paul spoke of the “living and REMAINING” saints - saints who had ALREADY BEEN MADE ALIVE BY A RESURRECTION (those such as the Matt. 27:52-53 saints), but who had “remained” on earth in that resurrected state.  These who had been made alive earlier would join all the newly-resurrected saints to meet the Lord together in the air in the promised AD 70 resurrection. 

1 Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.


WRONG! The dead are raised, and the living are caught up together with them, after which they will all be with the Lord forever. Stop trying to make scripture fit your preconceived ideas, and take them for what they simply say.

While 1 Corinthians does not specifically address those alive at Christ’s return, it does specify that all will be changed from mortal to immortal at the last trump, this will of course include the living in Christ at that time. At which time, Death is swallowed up in victory. This cannot be so, if the above were in relation to some resurrection of the dead in Christ in 70AD as you falsely preach. Countless believers in Christ have died since that time. Your testimony is false.

Do you really expect everyone to believe that resurrected saints from the old covenant were alive and well preaching and teaching for some thirty odd years leading up to 70AD, with no mention of them by the apostles during that same period? No testimony recorded from them who were alive from the dead, walking, talking, and no doubt teaching for over thirty years? BALONEY! There is no record of any kind concerning such, because nothing of the sort ever happened, just like the phony 70AD resurrection which you preach. There is not historical Christian testimony regarding either, because neither ever happened. The saints raised at Christ’s crucifixion gave their testimony, after which no doubt, they were taken up to heaven and are no doubt among the twenty four elders mentioned in the book of Revelation. Along with Enoch, Elijah, and Moses no doubt.   

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And I have already given archaeological evidence as well as historical evidence of the AD 70 resurrection at Christ’s return.  Do you need links for this?

Yes, I most definitely do. Please provide such evidence.

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And there is ample scripture proof that the gospel was preached unto “every creature under heaven”, and “in all the world” before AD 70’s resurrection at Christ’s return.  Do you need a list of these references?  Since that time, the gospel is still being presented to the nations at large, and will continue until the final THIRD resurrection in our future.

Yes, give me the references which declare the gospel had already gone out to all the world prior to AD70. While you are at it, please explain how the details of the following words of Paul were fulfilled prior to AD70 please. Since these things were supposed to happen before Christ returned according to Paul.

2 Th 2:1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

When did the above falling away transpire before 70AD? Who was the man of sin that set himself up in the temple which still existed at that time. How was he destroyed by the brightness of Christ’s coming? Why did none of the witnesses of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD, report anything about this destructive brightness? What were the workings of Satan with all power, signs, and lying wonders. What was the strong delusion? Please do tell.

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And yes, every event included in the lengthy Matt. 24 passage you gave above most certainly came to pass in that first-century generation, just as Christ promised.  They happened either just before, or during the “great tribulation” period from AD 66-70 - which “great tribulation’s” severity has never again been duplicated or surpassed after AD 70 in the rest of human history.  And we know that Christ was to “IMMEDIATELY” return after that first-century “great tribulation” (Matt. 24:29).  So that means His second-coming return is long past, with periods of various tribulations for the saints occurring after Christ’s AD 70 return.

Not so, estimates of from 50 to 125 million Christians were murdered during the papacies rule of the dark ages. A man of sin exalted himself in the temple of God (body of believers), defiled said temple of God with false teachings and abominable practices, and persecuted countless millions of the saints of God who would not submit to his usurped authority for over a thousand years. Denying this history does not make it go away.

Mt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

No, the sun was not darkened yet, the moons light was not taken away yet, and the stars of heaven have not fallen yet, the heaven have not been shaken yet. All the tribes of the earth have not mourned because of seeing Christ’s return yet. There has not been a great sound of a trumpet yet, after which God has gathered together all of His elect from everywhere.

Mt 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

You deny the above, and say none of the living were taken at your supposed second coming and resurrection. Christ testified to the opposite effect concerning His second coming. So when did the above happen at AD70, and where is any record of it? Or why do you deny the above words of Christ concerning it?

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Revelation, as you have stated yourself Amo,  is a book addressed to the new-covenant saints.  These were “ABOUT TO SUFFER” (Rev. 2:10) at the hands of their first-century persecutors (which included the antagonistic Jews as well as Nero and a wrathful Satan who had only a “short time” left to operate).  These who would SOON suffer and who were “ABOUT TO BE KILLED” (Rev.6:11) at that time would “SPEEDILY” (Luke 18:8) be vindicated by the AD 70 fall of “Babylon” (the old city of Jerusalem, and the antagonistic priesthood which had been oppressing the believers).

https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1552-when-was-the-book-of-revelation-written

The above link addresses the probable date of the book of Revelation being written about 96AD, which would of course make your entire belief system moot from the get go. As is obvious, Preterists of necessity choose an earlier date around 68 or 69AD. Even is this were correct, which is unlikely, this would mean that one of the most if not the most detailed and lengthy prophecies of the scriptures only covers one to two years of time. BALONEY! Only agenda driven interpretation of biblical prophecy would attempt to place all of the events depicted in the book of Revelation, into a time period of one to two years. Such makes the agenda of Preterism glaringly obvious.

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This fall of Babylon / Old Jerusalem was going to take only “one hour” to accomplish - by any accounts, only a brief period of time (Rev. 18:17).  The “kings of the earth” / high priests of Israel (NOT the other “kings of the whole habitable world”) would stand “afar off”, fearfully watching this takedown of their former “holy city” (Rev. 18:9).  In Josephus we are given the names of these few “kings of the earth” / high priests who bewailed and lamented the dying city.  These few former high priests and some of the high priests’ sons managed to escape Jerusalem and were sent by Titus to the more removed location called Gophna to wait out the war.  Titus later used these former high priests, along with Josephus outside the walls of Jerusalem, to personally plead with their fellow Jews to surrender to the Romans before it was too late (Wars 6.2.2-3).

BALONEY! Your whole interpretation of kings of the earth is based upon one obscure statement regarding kings and priests. The details of the book of Revelation in relation to BABYLON THE GREAT, includes all nations of the earth, not just kings. This would of course include the kings of all the nations of earth. Accepting of course for agenda driven interpretations, deduced according to the desire to support preconceived idea’s, rather than letting scripture explain itself. This is not to mention all merchants, craftsmen, traders, and musicians or entertainers of the earth as well you are not considering. You choose to leave such details out, because they do not fit into your chosen scenario. So be it.

Jerusalem was not destroyed by the Roman armies in one hour, nor did all the earth mourn her destruction.

Rev 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. 3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies………
17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,………………..
22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be,[/u] shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee; 23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.


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These were all first-century events, Amo.  They were presently “AT HAND” then, and are  ancient history at present.  You can’t expect the vast multitudes of persecuted, DEAD Christians of that era to make a detailed record of the resurrection for your perusal.  After all, they were raptured from earth to heaven along with the returning Christ, without time to sit down and make that personal record of events that you demand.

As already pointed out, several of the events predicted in Mathew 24 have not happened yet. Apart from this, according to your own understanding, the events described in Mathew 24 would have to transpire between the death of Christ and 70AD, not over the entirety of the first century. This is not to mention the events of the book of Revelation having to transpire within two years at the most, according to Preterist agenda driven dating. Again, BALONEY! 

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The rest of the first-century believers obeyed Christ’s instructions to FLEE Jerusalem and Judea once they saw Jerusalem encircled with armies.  They were not personally around to be an eye-witness of Christ’s Mount of Olives return, where all the resurrected saints converged.  They fled to Pella in the Decapolis, among other distant locations. 

What those believers did have was the record JESUS gave them of when He would return and the signs attending that return, before all that generation had died.  Though they didn’t personally see this return, (since only “those who pierced Him” would be the eye-witnesses), Jesus’ prophetic words were sufficient evidence for them, and should be sufficient evidence for YOU.

To the contrary, you are one of the deceivers our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and the apostles warned us about. Declaring that Jesus returned at such and such a place and time in history. Why have you twisted the words of scripture declaring that every eye shall see Him when he returns, including “those who pierced Him”? Is it not because you peddle deception?

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Mt 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be…………………
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


You preach that Christ was at Jerusalem in 70AD, and nobody saw him save the resurrected at that time, and those who were destroyed. Such places you among the false prophets of the above verses.

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #18 on: Sun Dec 20, 2020 - 20:22:25 »
Amo, you’ve got quite a laundry list that you expect to be covered.  Though I’m sure if I give due attention to repeating my scriptural and historical arguments all over again on each point for your inspection in this particular Adventist forum, that you would only deride the effort and heap vitriol on it.  My time on the weekend is limited, so I can only touch on a few of your challenges.

#1)  Revelation’s date of authorship was NOT 2-3 years before AD 70, as you have correctly said that many Preterists have mistakenly assumed.  It was written no more than a few months before the devastating AD 60 Laodicean earthquake, while that self-satisfied church was still “increasing in goods” before the city’s destruction.  Also, it was written 666 YEARS after the Sea Beast of Rev. 13 (beginning with its ancient history of the lion kingdom of Nebuchadnezzar) had deported the first group of Jews from Jerusalem, and started their 70 years of Babylonian captivity in 607 BC.  If we do the math, 666 years after 607 BC = late AD 59 to early AD 60 for Revelation’s composition date.

#2)  “Every eye shall see him, EVEN (kai) they which pierced Him” specifically LIMITS that view of a returning Christ to those tribes of the earth who pierced Christ and had a blood curse called down on themselves and their children of that first-century generation. 

You are presuming that the one little Greek word “Kai” means “in addition to”.  Not necessarily.  “Kai” has two Greek options of interpretation; either as a simple conjunction meaning “in addition to” OR it can be used as we would use the words “namely”, or “specifically” in an explanatory sense.  As in James 3:9, “Therewith bless we God EVEN (kai - namely) the Father...”.  It was the tribes of the earth, “EVEN (kai - NAMELY) those who pierced Him”, who would see His return.  Not the entire globe’s inhabitants simultaneously; a physical impossibility for Christ returning to a specific Mount of Olives location.

#3)  The “living and REMAINING” saints that were to be raptured in I Thess. 4:15&17 were not just those ordinary saints “alive” at Christ’s return who were to be raptured.  Check the Greek term for “REMAIN”.  “Perileipomenoi” carries the sense of a group being especially RESERVED or SET APART for a specific designated purpose and a specific period of time. 

This reserved group was the SEALED 144,000 “First-fruits” Matt. 27:52-53 saints; the same  “First-fruits” that the apostle Paul said the Roman believers “HAD” among their number (Romans 8:23) back then.  These “First-fruits” were made “ALIVE” in the “First Resurrection” in AD 33, and they were sealed to “REMAIN” on earth until they were raptured in I Thess 4.  At the last trumpet (7th trumpet in Rev. 11:19), the temple of God in heaven was opened, allowing access for the raptured, resurrected, glorified bodies of men to ascend and finally enter it (Rev. 15:8).

Besides Romans 8:23, Hebrews 12:23 and 13:2 describe these resurrected 144,000 “First-fruits” Matt. 27 saints.  III John 5-7 speaks about them.  So does Ephesians 4:8-12.  And the first sickle harvest of Rev. 14:14-16 is the Matt. 27:52-53 resurrected saints.   They are the anti-type fulfillment of the type of the “First-fruits” harvest presented in Leviticus 23:9-12.  They are the indestructible “camp of the saints” within the city of Jerusalem, which became surrounded by Gog, the main leader Simon bar Giora of the Zealot rebellion in AD 69-70.   These “alive and remaining” resurrected saints provided a witness for Christ right up to the very end.  Then they were raptured out of the city through the eastern gate to meet the Lord in the air as He left the Mount of Olives to return to heaven with all His resurrected saints.

Hymenaeus and Philetus based their false doctrine of a one-and-only past resurrection event around the very public existence of these resurrected Matt. 27:52-53 saints.  They didn’t realize that they were only the “FIRST-fruits” of the other resurrection events to come - one in AD 70, and one in our own future.

Quadratus the earliest Christian apologist gave testimony of the resurrected saints’ existence in his address to the emperor Hadrian.  Genuine miraculous resurrections who had “remained” on earth.

#4)  It is NOT the living saints who were to be “changed” into incorruptible forms in I Cor. 15; it was the *DEAD* BODIES of the saints (all of those asleep in the grave) who would be changed in the twinkling of an eye, at the last  (7th) trump of  Revelation.  Not one of all those saints would stay sleeping in death; ALL of the dead saints would be changed.

A “translation” change of the living is nowhere mentioned in either I Thess 4 or I Cor. 15.  ALL are appointed to die the one time (Heb. 9:27).

#5)  Did you miss what I wrote about the archaeological evidence of the prophesied earthquake filling up the Kidron Valley with landslide rubble at Christ’s AD 70 return?  It was prophesied in Zech 14:4-5 (LXX) to fill up the valley as far as Azal, which it did in both King Uzziah’s day and in AD 70.  The two dated layers of rubble are still lying there in the Kidron Valley, which have raised the river’s bed by some 40’.

Historical evidence of Christ’s return?  We have casualty lists and AD 66 census records from Ussher’s Annals of the World we can compare which shows us that about 1.25 million people fled Jerusalem in obedience to Christ’s warning to flee both Jerusalem and Judea when they saw “Jerusalem compassed by armies” (Luke 21:20-21).  THEY believed Jesus’s warning about those last days when “the powers of heaven shall be shaken” (Luke 21:26), even if you don’t, Amo.

#6)  “Gospel preached in all the world” before AD 70?  There was a post that covered this pretty extensively long ago in the Preterist forum, but here are just a couple off the cuff from Colossians 1:6 and 23.  “...the truth of the gospel; which is come unto you, AS IT IS IN ALL THE WORLD...”.   “...the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and WHICH WAS PREACHED TO EVERY CREATURE WHICH IS UNDER HEAVEN...”. You miss the fact that Jesus raised up the 144,000 “First-fruits” Matt. 27 saints to be used as an indestructible evangelistic labor force in those years after He ascended to heaven.  He left them as “laborers in the harvest” to work at building up the church before His AD 70 return.  Those resurrected saints had capabilities of traversing territory and reaching inaccessible areas that ordinary living saints could not cover by their limited resources.  By a combination of these ordinary and miraculous means, the gospel was indeed preached in all the world at that time before the end of the age came in AD 70.

#7)  What “falling away” transpired before AD 70?  The “apostasia” is not only a spiritual falling away (which actually took place especially in Asia, when all turned against Paul.  The “doctrine of Balaam” also corrupted many churches of that day with its lascivious doctrine.).

But the Greek term “apostasia” also encompasses the definition of a CIVIL REBELLION of a nation, which was launched officially with the revolt against Rome beginning in August of AD 66 (the attack on Roman troops at Masada and the cessation of sacrifices for the empire and the emperor in the temple, and the attack on the Roman troops garrisoned in the Fortress of Antonia).

This “mystery of lawlessness” - Zealot insurrection against Rome - was already at work, seething in the background in Paul’s day, and held in check by the high priesthood members loyal to Rome (the “who” that was restraining the Zealot outbreak - Ananaias ben Annas - as well as the “what” that was restraining the lawless Zealot outbreak - the high priesthood class).

The very first “Man of Lawlessness” competitor to battle his way to the top of the other Zealot leaders was Menahem, son or grandson of Judas the Galilean of Acts 5:37.   After murdering the high priest restrainer Ananias, (thus “taking him out of the way”), Menahem had a brief couple weeks with a meteoric rise of coming into power and actually getting into the temple, presenting himself as “king of the Jews”, dressed in King Herod’s stolen royal regalia.  This “brightness of his coming” into power was snuffed out almost immediately by Ananias’s son, Eleazar, taking vengeance on Menahem for murdering his high priest father.  It was NOT the brightness of CHRIST’S coming that killed Menahem, the Zealot Man of Lawlessness, because that “coming” was supposed to be after the works of Satan, using deception and  “lying wonders” (which would never be a sign of Christ’s coming).

#8)  What was the “strong delusion” that was believed before AD 70?  The Zealots gained a brief strategic victory against Cestius Gallus in AD 66, and routed that Roman legion completely at Beth Horon, stealing all their weaponry, war materiel, and catapults. 

Such a sudden victory at the very beginning of the Zealot’s revolt in AD 66 gave them a false sense of superiority and a deluded faith that God was on their side against the Romans.  Those who were wavering on whether to join the Zealot cause were then encouraged to get on board in the cause of the rebellion after that first major victory over the unfortunate, inept Roman general.  God let the Zealot factions believe this lie, in order to spur them on to their own nation’s destruction.

#9)  “Kings of the earth” being high priests based on only “one obscure reference”?  I would hardly call Christ’s words about this “obscure”, but yes, there is more than this one reference identifying “kings of the earth” as high priests.  Try Hannah’s testimony in the LXX extolling God, who “gives strength to OUR KINGS”, (and Saul the first literal king of Israel isn’t even born yet).  Has to be the high priest kings that God strengthened. 

You yourself, Amo, used the reference above that God formerly called Israel a “KINGdom of PRIESTS”.  This shows us that Israel’s royalty was in its Priesthood - not the usual sense of a monarchy ruling the nation.

The THRONE of the kingdom that the crowned Christ is currently sitting on in heaven is the mercy seat, with Jesus as the “prince of the kings of the earth” - the “king of kings” high priest upon that throne as our mediator, who supersedes all other high priest kings before Him.

High priests always wore a crown of gold encircling their forehead, with “Holiness to the Lord” engraved on it.  Crowns are for kings.  And the high priests were called kings often in the OT.  Try Melchizedek for one.  “KING of Salem...the PRIEST of the most high God” (Gen. 14:18).

We ourselves as saints are called “KINGS and (kai - NAMELY) PRIESTS unto God and His Father...” in Rev. 1:6.

That’s the best I can do at short notice this evening Amo.  Though I don’t think any of this will register with you - you’re too firmly entrenched in your position to consider that you might be off track somewhere.   But I don’t consider you a “false prophet”  - just a mistaken one on a bunch of eschatology, but not on everything.  Much of your material above on Old Covenant Israel versus the New Covenant Israel of God is very sound. 

And I’m also not a fan of the mystery meat baloney either...

Offline Amo

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #19 on: Sat Dec 26, 2020 - 10:32:14 »
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Amo, you’ve got quite a laundry list that you expect to be covered.  Though I’m sure if I give due attention to repeating my scriptural and historical arguments all over again on each point for your inspection in this particular Adventist forum, that you would only deride the effort and heap vitriol on it.  My time on the weekend is limited, so I can only touch on a few of your challenges.

#1)  Revelation’s date of authorship was NOT 2-3 years before AD 70, as you have correctly said that many Preterists have mistakenly assumed.  It was written no more than a few months before the devastating AD 60 Laodicean earthquake, while that self-satisfied church was still “increasing in goods” before the city’s destruction.  Also, it was written 666 YEARS after the Sea Beast of Rev. 13 (beginning with its ancient history of the lion kingdom of Nebuchadnezzar) had deported the first group of Jews from Jerusalem, and started their 70 years of Babylonian captivity in 607 BC.  If we do the math, 666 years after 607 BC = late AD 59 to early AD 60 for Revelation’s composition date.

I will address your numbered points one at a time for clarity and time sake.

What a mess you make of biblical prophecy, while adding only 7 or 8 years equaling a grand total of ten years altogether for the fulfillment of 22 chapters of biblical prophecy. All culminating in an event that few to none have even known of since its supposed fulfillment, with no historical testimony regarding it.

This concerning an event which scripture testifies will be seen by every eye, causing all the kindreds of earth to wail (Rev 1:7). And all of the tribes of the earth to mourn because they see Him (Mt 24:30). And all nations to be gathered before Him to be judged and separated (Mt 25:31-33). Jesus Himself declaring that all who should say He came in a particular place or time already, without being seen by all, were false prophets (Mt 24:23-27). Yet here you are preaching that Jesus already returned in a certain place, which was and has been a secret to most of humanity. So be it.

The beast of Rev 13 which rises out of the sea is not the first biblical beast of prophecy brought forth in Dan 7 like unto a lion. The first beast of Rev 13, which is the fifth consecutive beast of biblical prophecy and first one of the new covenant era, has components of the first four beasts of the book of Daniel before it. Which beasts are referenced in reverse order, going back in time as they existed, ending with your mentioned lion beast which was the first prophetic beast of Daniel 7. 

Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. 2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

Papal Rome arose among the peoples, nations, and tongues of the pagan Roman Empire. Therefore is her religion an amalgamation of the religious beliefs and practices of the same. All of which are the abominations of her golden cup with which she intoxicated the kings of the earth during the dark ages, and is presently intoxicating all nations unto the healing of her deadly wound.

Rev 17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

There are seven distinct beasts, kings, heads of the dragon, and mountains of biblical prophecy (Rev 17:7-11). They are the consecutive kingdoms through which the Devil has carried on his rebellion against God on this earth. As the Devil’s counterfeits of God’s kingdom in this world, they took on a new spiritual and universal nature during this new covenant era in direct response to God’s universal spiritual kingdom of this new covenant established in Christ Jesus our Lord. The Papacies global unification of humanity movements, are the Devil’s counterfeit to the universal spiritual kingdom of God in this new covenant era, which includes the saved of every nation and tongue.

The resurrection of the Papal ridden beast on a global scale is the Devil’s counterfeit resurrection as apposed and opposed to Christ’s, unto the unity of fallen humanity in rebellion against God under his church’s banner. He is the head, and unified humanity in rebellion against God are his body. As Christ is the head of His body the Church, so Satan is the head of his body, the papacy.  Christ’s Church unifying in submission to the authority of God unto salvation, and Satan’s church unifying through compromise of the same under the intoxicating influence of the papacy(BABYLON THE GREAT), unto damnation and destruction. Therefore the call for all to come out of Babylon.

Rev 18:1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. 2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. 3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. 4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. 5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. 6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double. 7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow. 8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

Why do you support BABYLON THE GREAT, in pretending that the above warning was and is only concerning the people of literal Jerusalem before its destruction in AD70? Why will you deny the universal nature of Christ’s present spiritual kingdom, and therefore prophetic utterance of the same? You error is of a most detrimental nature towards the unsaved masses of this world. Leaving them without proper warning of the things coming upon this earth, and therefore without proper conviction to prepare for the same through salvation in Christ Jesus our Lord. Who Himself sent these messages to the world unto salvation. So be it. Nevertheless, I feel compelled of course, to call you out of Babylon. Come out, that you might not receive if her plagues.

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #20 on: Sat Dec 26, 2020 - 13:02:19 »
Amo, we are speaking past each other a bit, which is adding confusion.

I do agree with you that the Rev. 13 Sea Beast is a blend of all former beast kingdoms of lion, bear, and leopard - all subsumed into the final great and terrible beast.  It was all the powers of those former empires that passed from one kingdom to the next (Chaldean to Medo-Persian, then to Greek, finally passing to the final Roman phase of that Sea Beast existing in John’s days).

This had been a combined 666 years up until John wrote Revelation of world-dominating rule, backed by the demonic realm that was about to be crushed to dust by Christ (the Stone cut without hands) in the end of the AD 70 judgment. 

The main reason I can’t extend the identity of this former Roman phase of the Sea Beast into the Roman Catholic Church of either the past or the present is Rev. 2:13 when we compare it with Rev. 13:2.  The Sea Beast of Rev. 13:2 was given Satan’s throne (the same thing as the Dragon’s throne).  That throne is specifically defined for us in Rev. 2:13 as being a throne IN THE CITY OF PERGAMOS.  I ask you, Amo:  When was a specific throne in the city of Pergamos ever given by Satan to the Catholic Church? 

Yet we have a record of this transfer of the entire devil-worshipping Pergamon kingdom and its throne in the city of Pergamos being given to the Roman Republic in 133 BC by the dying King Attalus.  He had no heir to pass his kingdom to, so instead, he bequeathed it in his will to his ally, the Roman Republic.  This transfer of the throne and the Pergamon kingdom to the Roman phase of the Sea Beast was recorded in the Roman senate. 

Even today, you can see a photo of that “throne of Satan” in the newly-revamped Berlin Pergamos museum, where that 40’ tall altar to Zeus was reassembled after Germany moved it from the original site in Pergamos.  Just why Germany thought that was a good idea at the time is beyond me.

Mystery Babylon of Rev. 17 holding aloft a cup that was COMPLETELY FILLED UP is the pictorial presentation of that first-century generation of scribes and hypocritical Pharisees in Jerusalem that Jesus said would “FILL UP THE MEASURE OF YOUR FATHERS” (Matt. 23:31-32).  It was first-century Jerusalem that Jesus mourned over in Matt. 23:37 that would have the blood guilt on its hands of all the righteous killed since Abel.  That generation at its culmination filled up the cup’s measure of offenses completely, and was judged accordingly for shedding the blood of its prophesied Messiah (and by inclusion, all the righteous IN CHRIST who had been martyred up to that point).

Jerusalem and its religious leadership had a long, notorious history of killing and stoning the prophets and wise men sent unto her.  As a formerly “faithful city” who turned against her Lord, covenant-breaking Jerusalem was labeled a “harlot” in the OT (Isaiah 1:21). This is the very same description given about faithless Jerusalem in Rev. 17:3.

The lesson that current generations can take from seeing God fulfill His vengeance on first-century Jerusalem and that nation is that HE ALWAYS KEEPS HIS PROMISES EXACTLY WHEN AND WHERE HE PREDICTS THEM TO HAPPEN.  Is this not reassuring to a saint in any generation, ourselves included?

Don’t know why you can’t tell the scriptural difference between the “kings of the earth” and the “kings of the whole habitable world” as mentioned separately in Rev. 16:14.  It was the “kings of the earth” as high priest rulers that were prophesied to stand up and “take counsel together” against Jesus to “cast away thy cords from us” by crucifying Him (Psalms 2:2).  In spite of all the conniving, devious plans of the high priests Caiphas and Annas, God still set Jesus as a “King” upon His holy hill of Zion (a high priest “king” after the deathless order of Melchizedek).  If you  can ever get the “kings of the earth” correctly identified as the “high priests of the land of Israel” Amo, it would certainly be helpful to your interpretations.

Amo, I believe you are inventing SEVEN Beasts from Revelation.  There are only THREE that were described in Rev. 13 and 17.   One from the sea - that then-present Roman phase of the Sea Beast - and a two-horned Judean Beast coming from the land of Israel, with the final Scarlet Judean Beast found in the wilderness.  The “seven kings” were not 7 kingdoms - different Greek term altogether, with different gender designations also between those Greek terms, I believe, so we can easily distinguish the difference between kings and kingdoms.

Not sure why you think that I “deny the universal nature of Christ’s present spiritual kingdom”.  ???  That kingdom of Christ (Daniel’s stone cut without hands) SIMULTANEOUSLY in the end of AD 70 crushed the ENTIRE demonic realm that had been operating behind all the statue’s world-wide empires up until that time.   Once Satan and his entire demonic realm was utterly destroyed, Christ confiscated ALL the crowns of power that Satan as the “prince of the kingdoms of this world” had once exercised by his 7-horned power, after crushing him to dust back then that blew away on the wind - literally.

This is how the Son of Man with a SINGLE CROWN (of the high priesthood) in Rev. 14 ended up with MANY CROWNS in Rev. 11:15 and 19:12, after confiscating all Satan’s former kingdom powers over this world that he had once boasted about in Luke 4:5-6.

I’m not sitting in “Babylon” as you mistakenly understand it.  And I have indeed given warning on this website of exactly when I believe this world will go through a judgment period in our near future.  It’s just not the list of particular dangers that YOU think are impending from Revelation, since all of those unsealed prophecies were “AT HAND” and presently to happen in THEIR DAYS - not “prolonged” into our days that are times far removed from John’s generation (as defined extensively by God Himself in Ezekiel 12:21-28).

When you disregard Revelation’s own self-imposed time markers that God and the writer gave to you, it’s as if you are trying to interpret a map without paying any attention to the compass orientation or the map legend.  Naturally, your interpretations will get twisted in the wrong direction.

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #21 on: Sat Dec 26, 2020 - 18:35:16 »
Quote
#2)  “Every eye shall see him, EVEN (kai) they which pierced Him” specifically LIMITS that view of a returning Christ to those tribes of the earth who pierced Christ and had a blood curse called down on themselves and their children of that first-century generation. 

You are presuming that the one little Greek word “Kai” means “in addition to”.  Not necessarily.  “Kai” has two Greek options of interpretation; either as a simple conjunction meaning “in addition to” OR it can be used as we would use the words “namely”, or “specifically” in an explanatory sense.  As in James 3:9, “Therewith bless we God EVEN (kai - namely) the Father...”.  It was the tribes of the earth, “EVEN (kai - NAMELY) those who pierced Him”, who would see His return.  Not the entire globe’s inhabitants simultaneously; a physical impossibility for Christ returning to a specific Mount of Olives location.

I am not the one presuming anything. You are presuming the verse means that which no translator I know of, has ever attempted to specify concerning the scripture under examination. You are also presuming that at the second coming Christ Himself who is verily God, will be physically limited to the same existence and or dimensions that we are. This you do in defiance of God’s word which testifies to the opposite effect, in the declaration that every eye will see Him alone, let alone other verses which clearly establish the supernatural nature of His return. Emphasis in the following quoted scripture is mine. You are of course free to supply a translation which specifies your own view if you can.

Revelation 1:7 Amplified Bible (AMP)
7 Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes (nations) of the earth will mourn over Him [realizing their sin and guilt, and anticipating the coming wrath]. [a]So it is to be. Amen.

Revelation 1:7 Expanded Bible (EXB)
7 Look [Behold], Jesus is coming with the clouds [Dan. 7:13–14], and ·everyone [every eye] will see him, even those who ·stabbed [pierced] him [C a reference to the crucifixion; Zech. 12:10]. And all ·peoples [people groups; tribes] of the earth will ·cry loudly [wail; mourn] because of him. ·Yes, this will happen [So it shall be;  Yes]! Amen.

Revelation 1:7 Wycliffe Bible (WYC)
7 Lo! he cometh with clouds, and each eye shall see him, and they that pricked him; and all the kindreds of the earth shall bewail themselves on him [and all kindreds, or lineages, of earth shall wail themselves on him]. Yea, Amen!

Revelation 1:7 King James Version (KJV)
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Revelation 1:7 21st Century King James Version (KJ21)
7 Behold, He cometh with clouds, and every eye shall see Him, and they also who pierced Him; and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so. Amen.

Revelation 1:7 American Standard Version (ASV)
7 Behold, he cometh with the clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they that pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth shall mourn over him. Even so, Amen.

Revelation 1:7 New American Bible (Revised Edition) (NABRE)
7 Behold, he is coming amid the clouds,
    and every eye will see him,
    even those who pierced him.
All the peoples of the earth will lament him.
    Yes. Amen.

Revelation 1:7 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
7 Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. [a]So it is to be. Amen.

Revelation 1:7 New International Version (NIV)
7 “Look, he is coming with the clouds,”
    and “every eye will see him,
even
those who pierced him”;
    and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”
So shall it be! Amen.


Shall I continue? You are the one who is choosing to see what is not there, not I or all of the bible translators which I know of. Are you not? Please do provide the many translations there must be of something apparently so obvious, if you can.

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #22 on: Sat Dec 26, 2020 - 18:40:20 »
Do you see the Google adds dispersed throughout your last post, or is this just what I see? These adds irk me to no end. You're trying to make a point or address someone else's, and these idiotic adds break up the train of thought you are attempting to express. Google chaps my hide. I wish I could remove them from my computer altogether.

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #23 on: Sat Dec 26, 2020 - 19:29:18 »
Amo, we are speaking past each other a bit, which is adding confusion.

I do agree with you that the Rev. 13 Sea Beast is a blend of all former beast kingdoms of lion, bear, and leopard - all subsumed into the final great and terrible beast.  It was all the powers of those former empires that passed from one kingdom to the next (Chaldean to Medo-Persian, then to Greek, finally passing to the final Roman phase of that Sea Beast existing in John’s days).

This had been a combined 666 years up until John wrote Revelation of world-dominating rule, backed by the demonic realm that was about to be crushed to dust by Christ (the Stone cut without hands) in the end of the AD 70 judgment. 

The main reason I can’t extend the identity of this former Roman phase of the Sea Beast into the Roman Catholic Church of either the past or the present is Rev. 2:13 when we compare it with Rev. 13:2.  The Sea Beast of Rev. 13:2 was given Satan’s throne (the same thing as the Dragon’s throne).  That throne is specifically defined for us in Rev. 2:13 as being a throne IN THE CITY OF PERGAMOS.  I ask you, Amo:  When was a specific throne in the city of Pergamos ever given by Satan to the Catholic Church? 

Yet we have a record of this transfer of the entire devil-worshipping Pergamon kingdom and its throne in the city of Pergamos being given to the Roman Republic in 133 BC by the dying King Attalus.  He had no heir to pass his kingdom to, so instead, he bequeathed it in his will to his ally, the Roman Republic.  This transfer of the throne and the Pergamon kingdom to the Roman phase of the Sea Beast was recorded in the Roman senate. 

Even today, you can see a photo of that “throne of Satan” in the newly-revamped Berlin Pergamos museum, where that 40’ tall altar to Zeus was reassembled after Germany moved it from the original site in Pergamos.  Just why Germany thought that was a good idea at the time is beyond me.

Mystery Babylon of Rev. 17 holding aloft a cup that was COMPLETELY FILLED UP is the pictorial presentation of that first-century generation of scribes and hypocritical Pharisees in Jerusalem that Jesus said would “FILL UP THE MEASURE OF YOUR FATHERS” (Matt. 23:31-32).  It was first-century Jerusalem that Jesus mourned over in Matt. 23:37 that would have the blood guilt on its hands of all the righteous killed since Abel.  That generation at its culmination filled up the cup’s measure of offenses completely, and was judged accordingly for shedding the blood of its prophesied Messiah (and by inclusion, all the righteous IN CHRIST who had been martyred up to that point).

Jerusalem and its religious leadership had a long, notorious history of killing and stoning the prophets and wise men sent unto her.  As a formerly “faithful city” who turned against her Lord, covenant-breaking Jerusalem was labeled a “harlot” in the OT (Isaiah 1:21). This is the very same description given about faithless Jerusalem in Rev. 17:3.

The lesson that current generations can take from seeing God fulfill His vengeance on first-century Jerusalem and that nation is that HE ALWAYS KEEPS HIS PROMISES EXACTLY WHEN AND WHERE HE PREDICTS THEM TO HAPPEN.  Is this not reassuring to a saint in any generation, ourselves included?

Don’t know why you can’t tell the scriptural difference between the “kings of the earth” and the “kings of the whole habitable world” as mentioned separately in Rev. 16:14.  It was the “kings of the earth” as high priest rulers that were prophesied to stand up and “take counsel together” against Jesus to “cast away thy cords from us” by crucifying Him (Psalms 2:2).  In spite of all the conniving, devious plans of the high priests Caiphas and Annas, God still set Jesus as a “King” upon His holy hill of Zion (a high priest “king” after the deathless order of Melchizedek).  If you  can ever get the “kings of the earth” correctly identified as the “high priests of the land of Israel” Amo, it would certainly be helpful to your interpretations.

Amo, I believe you are inventing SEVEN Beasts from Revelation.  There are only THREE that were described in Rev. 13 and 17.   One from the sea - that then-present Roman phase of the Sea Beast - and a two-horned Judean Beast coming from the land of Israel, with the final Scarlet Judean Beast found in the wilderness.  The “seven kings” were not 7 kingdoms - different Greek term altogether, with different gender designations also between those Greek terms, I believe, so we can easily distinguish the difference between kings and kingdoms.

Not sure why you think that I “deny the universal nature of Christ’s present spiritual kingdom”.  ???  That kingdom of Christ (Daniel’s stone cut without hands) SIMULTANEOUSLY in the end of AD 70 crushed the ENTIRE demonic realm that had been operating behind all the statue’s world-wide empires up until that time.   Once Satan and his entire demonic realm was utterly destroyed, Christ confiscated ALL the crowns of power that Satan as the “prince of the kingdoms of this world” had once exercised by his 7-horned power, after crushing him to dust back then that blew away on the wind - literally.

This is how the Son of Man with a SINGLE CROWN (of the high priesthood) in Rev. 14 ended up with MANY CROWNS in Rev. 11:15 and 19:12, after confiscating all Satan’s former kingdom powers over this world that he had once boasted about in Luke 4:5-6.

I’m not sitting in “Babylon” as you mistakenly understand it.  And I have indeed given warning on this website of exactly when I believe this world will go through a judgment period in our near future.  It’s just not the list of particular dangers that YOU think are impending from Revelation, since all of those unsealed prophecies were “AT HAND” and presently to happen in THEIR DAYS - not “prolonged” into our days that are times far removed from John’s generation (as defined extensively by God Himself in Ezekiel 12:21-28).

When you disregard Revelation’s own self-imposed time markers that God and the writer gave to you, it’s as if you are trying to interpret a map without paying any attention to the compass orientation or the map legend.  Naturally, your interpretations will get twisted in the wrong direction.

The prophetic messages to the seven churches are just that. They are prophetic messages to the churches of Christ, at the time given, and with future application throughout time, and to the faults of the church as a whole throughout history. They are all given warning and hope of repentance, as all truly in Christ must be chastised from time to time unto conviction, conversion, and growth or sanctification. The prophecies concerning the beasts and Babylon are not by way of instruction to Christ's own, but rather by way of warning against being part of them. They cannot repent, because the dragon gives them their power and seat, not the other way around. You are mixing apples and oranges. Mixing prophecies directly for Christ's church unto repentance, with prophecies directly for Satans church or kingdoms unto deliverance from the same for all who will heed them. One is about correction and repentance within the church, the other is about calling people out of institutions, religions, and or governments beyond repentance under the control of the evil one.

The church of Pergamos was simply where Satan's seat was literally located, but the dragon or Satan did not give them their power or place. The beasts and Babylon receive their power and seat from the dragon. Though the second beast of Revelation 13 did not, which is these United States. It arose out of the earth, not the sea. It had two horns like a lamb in the beginning, but ends up speaking as a dragon. As we ever increasingly do.

The sea beast is not pagan Rome, and did not exist yet during John's day at all. Though it was slowly developing during the days of the apostles, and would shortly come to pass after their days. As the book of Revelation addresses that which would shortly begin to pass during the new covenant age, and is a guiding unfolding work for the new covenant Church. The Apostle Paul also addressed the fact that it was already developing in his day.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

The book of Revelation addresses this mystery of iniquity far more extensively than Paul did above.

Rev 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters: 2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. 3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. 4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: 5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. 6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration. 7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

BABYLON THE GREAT is the system of the mystery of iniquity Paul spoke of, the Pope of Rome is the man of sin who heads the system, and the beasts are the governments whom she intoxicates and commits fornication with, which she rides.




 


Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #24 on: Sat Dec 26, 2020 - 22:34:46 »
Amo, you aren’t paying attention to the language about the seat of the Dragon which he gave to the Sea Beast.  That seat or throne was just given to the Sea Beast alone.  Satan the Dragon did NOT give his own seat in Pergamos to Mystery Babylon riding the Scarlet Beast in the wilderness - just to the Sea Beast that in John’s days had a 666-year-old biographical history that had existed ever since the first lion kingdom, led by Nebuchadnezzar. 

You may think the Sea Beast was not yet in existence in John’s days, but that Rev. 13 list of “leopard, bear, and lion” features for the Sea Beast shows us it had existed as early as Nebuchadnezzar’s “lion” empire.

And the Land Beast cannot possibly be the United States, because that Land Beast exercised the same power of the Sea Beast “before him” and “in the sight of” the Sea Beast.  That means the Sea Beast and the Land Beast were contemporaries at some point, with the Land Beast operating in the DIRECT VIEW and under the eyesight of the Sea Beast.

I know I keep harping on this, but you also have never addressed the “AT HAND” terms John used to describe all of the unsealed future prophecies found from the very beginning to the very end of Revelation.  This term is not just wasted ink on John’s part in Rev. 1:3 and 22:10.  It actually MEANS something.   God already told us in Ezekiel 12:21-28 when “AT HAND” prophecies are to be fulfilled, and they are NOT to be “prolonged” into “times that are far off”.  This would eliminate any application of Revelation’s unsealed prophecies to the RCC, for it certainly is a “time far off” compared to when John was writing. 

The “Wicked One” and his angels are no longer in existence today to play any part in governments or religious institutions since he was “crushed” under the feet of the saints, as Paul promised was “shortly” to take place in Romans 16:20.  What IS a threat today is the “children of the devil”, as Christ labeled them, besides our own tendency to engage in sinful activities and thoughts.

It makes no difference if you think this large an amount of future prophecy could not possibly be fulfilled in a ten year span before AD 70’s end.  If GOD says they were all “AT HAND” in John’s days, then YOU are the one who must adjust to HIS terms, not He to your assumptions.

One of the main problems you have, Amo, is trying to make the term “the EARTH” (tes ges) refer to the entire WORLD at large in Revelation (which would be “oikoumenen” instead.  “Tes ges” is usually specific to the land of Israel in scripture.  Such as Hebrews 8:4, for just one example.  Speaking of the ascended Christ, it says “For if He were ON EARTH” (ges - the land of Israel), “He should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law...”

Those “tribes of the EARTH” (tes ges) seeing Christ’s return were specifically some of ethnic Israel’s 12 tribes seeing that return.  The mournful “weeping and gnashing of teeth” of these tribes was specifically from those who claimed that “We have EATEN AND DRUNK IN THY PRESENCE, and THOU HAST TAUGHT IN OUR STREETS.” (Luke 13:25-29).  There is only one specific generation that could legitimately claim a personal encounter with the incarnate Christ eating and drinking with them face to face and teaching in their streets, and that was the first century generation of Israelites.

It was THESE Israelite tribes of the land of Israel (tes ges) that would be the “every eye”  of those tribes who pierced Him that would witness His physical return.  And that return was done in the same glorified body in which Christ ascended from the Mount of Olives.  And to the very same mountain location also,  according to Zechariah 14:4-5. 

If you’re wanting me to give a translation that makes the “every eye” term limited to only those who pierced Him, you have already given some of them yourself above when they translate “Kai” as “EVEN they which pierced Him”.  The word “Even” means “namely” in this text.  Vines Greek NT dictionary lists the various uses of this word “Kai”, and acknowledges that it is possible that it can be used in an “epexegetic or explanatory” manner when followed by a noun in apposition.  While not the more common occurrence, yet there are other examples in scripture besides Rev. 1:7 where “Kai” cannot be used as a normal conjunction meaning “in addition to”.  Do you need some of these other scripture examples that show “Kai” being used in an explanatory sense instead of meaning “also”?

Even the KJV INSERTS  the word “also” in italics, which leads you to misunderstand that this witness of Christ’s return extended also to the entire world “...and every eye shall see him, and (kai) they” (also) “which pierced him...”

If you can’t tell by now, I am VERY, VERY serious about the fine print in scripture.  So much of my understanding from my former training I have had to trash, simply because I skipped over the smaller details and gave no regard to the original languages, the time markers, and the particular audience relevance of whom the books were written to in the first place.  Makes all the difference in the world.

As for the Google ads you are noticing, I’m not seeing them myself within my comment.  As a rule, is that typical of other posts that you read?

Offline Amo

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #25 on: Sun Jan 03, 2021 - 11:40:41 »
I haven't forgotten about this thread 3 Resurrections. Just trying to prevent to much splintering and confusion. I have not yet even nearly finished addressing your points which I said I would address one at a time for clarities sake. I have a couple of posts I was going to post in response to your latest posts, but have decided I need to finish addressing the points I already started first, again for the sake of clarity. It may be a little while therefore, before I can address all that you have already brought forward. Which I intend to present all at once, and then allow you to respond. Such is conducive unto organized and comprehensible dialogue, over sporadic, chaotic, and confused Babel.

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #26 on: Sun Jan 03, 2021 - 12:25:33 »
Afternoon Amo,

You are right in attempting to simplify the discussion.  This is a weakness that both you and I share, I believe, to bite into more than we can chew at any one time. 

If I were to pare this discussion down to one single, overriding point that would clarify much of what we are differing about, it would be this:

Can you explain why all of the content of unsealed prophecy related to future events between Revelation 1:3 and Revelation 22:10 was described as being “AT HAND”?  When God already gave His own definition of what an “AT HAND” prophecy of the future entails in Ezekiel 12:21-28, we are not at liberty to extend the fulfillment of that kind of prophecy into “times that are far off” from when those prophecies are first made.  How do you justify doing this very thing with your interpretations of Revelation?  This is against God’s revealed definition (in Ezekiel 12:21-28) of what He meant by prophecies which He said were “AT HAND” in John’s days.

Clarify this one single point, and EVERYTHING ELSE under discussion above falls into its proper place on the timeline.  If we cannot agree on this single point, then there is no mutual ground we can both stand on to debate these issues.  We would just have to agree to disagree.

Offline Amo

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #27 on: Fri Jan 22, 2021 - 09:58:05 »
Afternoon Amo,

You are right in attempting to simplify the discussion.  This is a weakness that both you and I share, I believe, to bite into more than we can chew at any one time. 

If I were to pare this discussion down to one single, overriding point that would clarify much of what we are differing about, it would be this:

Can you explain why all of the content of unsealed prophecy related to future events between Revelation 1:3 and Revelation 22:10 was described as being “AT HAND”?  When God already gave His own definition of what an “AT HAND” prophecy of the future entails in Ezekiel 12:21-28, we are not at liberty to extend the fulfillment of that kind of prophecy into “times that are far off” from when those prophecies are first made.  How do you justify doing this very thing with your interpretations of Revelation?  This is against God’s revealed definition (in Ezekiel 12:21-28) of what He meant by prophecies which He said were “AT HAND” in John’s days.

Clarify this one single point, and EVERYTHING ELSE under discussion above falls into its proper place on the timeline.  If we cannot agree on this single point, then there is no mutual ground we can both stand on to debate these issues.  We would just have to agree to disagree.

One scripture in one place, does not a doctrine make.

Joe 2:1  Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;

Read Joel chapter 2, and understand that the prophecy encompasses the army of the Lord which battles upon this earth, concerning the truths of God's word. A battle that will rage unto the end, the result of which will be the salvation of all who submit to God's word even unto the end of this world.

Joe 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: 29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. 30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. 32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

Act 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: 15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. 16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 20  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Were Peter and Joel contemporaries? Did Joel not claim that the prophecy he declared was at hand? Then how does Peter say it is fulfilled in his day? I tell you the truth, they were and are contemporaries, as all of God's servants are at all times in sharing the truths of holy scripture. Which truths are the salvation of condemnation of each and every soul in every generation unto the end. All of which is in direct relation to the end at the literal day of the Lord when He personally returns to this earth unto judgment. Which every soul throughout history will personally experience face to face with God. There is not a moment of history upon this world, at which time the fulfillment of God's prophecies have not been being accomplished and or at hand concerning the same. The word of God has depth and meaning we will be studying throughout the endless ages of eternity. Nor does this detract from specific fulfillment of His prophecies throughout history as well.

Declaring that a prophecy is at hand does not mean it is about to be literally and or completely fulfilled, as Peters reference to Joels prophecy clearly points out. Though it may at times, such as that you brought up in Ezekiel. The whole point of which was to declare that previous prophecies were about to be literally fulfilled and would tarry no longer.

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

The time of the prophecies were at hand. Things Daniel and other prophets had spoken concerning Christ and His spiritual kingdom being set up at His first coming were literally transpiring in His life, during the continued formation of His church,  and at the writing of the book of Revelation. Events of the book of Revelation were also already unfolding before, during, and after its completion.

Rev 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters: 2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. 3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. 4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: 5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. 6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration. 7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

Paul revealed that the above mystery was already at work during his day. Which mystery infiltrated the church of Christ and highjacked its mission unto joining the politics and kingdoms of this world, rather than calling all the saved out of it.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

The book of Revelation deals with these very declarations by Paul. Babylon the great is the mystery of iniquity developed from within the temple of God, which is the church in this new covenant era. The Pope of Rome is the man of sin, the Roman Catholic Church is Babylon the great, who commits fornication with the kings of this earth. Which truths bible believing Christians have proclaimed throughout the history of her development, and under the oppression of her political successes of the past and are now at hand again in the present. This being directly connected the rise, fatal wound, and resurrection of the sea beast which is ridden by the woman Babylon the great who holds the cup of the worlds abominations in her hand, which she gives all the world to drink.

Act 20:25 And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more. 26 Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men. 27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God. 28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. 29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. 31  Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears. 32 And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.

The prophecies of the book of Revelation were already unfolding in Paul's day, as he testified even before they were written. Nor did he warn of things pertaining to literal Israel or Jerusalem, but rather of the dangers entering right into the church. Which as I have told over and again, the prophecies of the book of revelation were written for, not Israel and Jerusalem of old. As the book itself testifies in addressing the churches of Christ immediately in the first chapters. The prophecies of this book were and are at hand for the church of Christ right up to the end. You are in great error relinquishing their significance to the past alone.

Nevertheless you deny doing this. Yet here again in the post I am addressing, what is your argument but that all is already fulfilled because Christ said the prophecies were at hand. I think it is about time, that you prove you are not a full fledged Preterist, by actually sharing interpretation of prophecy which proves otherwise. Thus far I see nothing but declarations that it has all already happened. This is your consistent argument, is it not? Please do show us otherwise. Thank you.



Offline Amo

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #28 on: Fri Jan 22, 2021 - 11:00:27 »
I guess it will take to long to wait until I have addressed all of your points before posting. So I will continue addressing your 9 points and other posts as time allows. The risk of confusion is better I reckon, than replies being so long in waiting that they no longer have much relevance. 

3Res. -
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#3)  The “living and REMAINING” saints that were to be raptured in I Thess. 4:15&17 were not just those ordinary saints “alive” at Christ’s return who were to be raptured.  Check the Greek term for “REMAIN”.  “Perileipomenoi” carries the sense of a group being especially RESERVED or SET APART for a specific designated purpose and a specific period of time. I will post my responses in the color blue, to avoid confusion regarding who is speaking or writing. 

This reserved group was the SEALED 144,000 “First-fruits” Matt. 27:52-53 saints; the same  “First-fruits” that the apostle Paul said the Roman believers “HAD” among their number (Romans 8:23) back then.  These “First-fruits” were made “ALIVE” in the “First Resurrection” in AD 33, and they were sealed to “REMAIN” on earth until they were raptured in I Thess 4.  At the last trumpet (7th trumpet in Rev. 11:19), the temple of God in heaven was opened, allowing access for the raptured, resurrected, glorified bodies of men to ascend and finally enter it (Rev. 15:8).

What an absolute mess.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Thessalonica was in northern Greece. Paul was addressing the Christians of that city, not saints resurrected at Christs resurrection in Jerusalem. The above resurrection takes place at Christs return, it has nothing to do with the resurrection of certain saints at His resurrection. The resurrection of the dead and the catching up of the living with them described above happen at the same time, not decades apart. Or are you suggesting there was a special resurrection at Christ’s, then another one in AD70, and then there will be another in the future? Is this why you call yourself 3Resurrections? Where are all the historical records or accounts of this resurrection in AD70 where the Lord descended “with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God”. You mean to tell me this event transpired right in front of everyone, and no one recorded such. Or are you saying the event was secret? Nonsense

1Cor 15:18Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Christ is the firstfruits of them that slept. Apart from His resurrection, there would be no other. The 144000 are the firstfruits unto God and the Lamb.

Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: 3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. 4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

The firstfruits Paul speaks of in Romans 8 are concerning the fruits of the spirit, not the firstfruits of the resurrection from the dead, or the firstfruits unto God and the Lamb. These firstfruits are not meant to convey that they are all the same event, but rather the first, foremost, or most important aspects of each separate event they are depicting or addressing. Christ was not the first and certainly will not be the last to be resurrected, but His resurrection was and is the most important one. The 144000 are certainly not the only redeemed of this world, but rather the foremost among humanity who followed the Lamb wherever He goes, spoke no deception from their mouths, and were without fault before the throne of God. You ignore the particulars of these scriptures and others in order align them in support of your preconceived ideas, certainly not to prove them. For they most certainly do not, unless context and detail are ignored.


 https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/firstfruits/

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Firstfruits
(Heb. resit [tyivaer]; Gk. aparche [ajparchv]). The concept of firstfruits derives from God's creation work. Because God created everything that exists, all of creation belongs to him ( Psalm 24:1 ). Consequently, that which is first and best belongs to him and is to be given to him.

Because of God's creative power and ownership of all, the Bible instructs believers to give God the best of the animal sacrifices (see Lev. 1-5). The land is also viewed as a gift from God and the best of it, its "firstfruits, " is to be given to him — crops ( Exodus 23:16 Exodus 23:19 ), the wheat harvest ( Exod 34:22 ; Lev 2:14 ; 23:20 ), olive oil ( Num 18:12 ; Deut 18:4 ), the finest new wine ( Num 18:12 ; Deut 18:4 ), honey ( 2 Chron 31:5 ), sheep wool ( Deut 18:4 ), and fruit ( Neh 10:35 ). The Old Testament makes it clear that everything that God's people have is to be viewed as from God and gained through his providence ( Psalm 50:10 ).

Believers are the "firstfruits" of God" a kind of firstfruits of all he created" ( Jas 1:18 ). Spiritual "firstfruits" may be the first converts in an area ( Rom 16:5 ). As "firstfruits" believers are a testimony to God's power in salvation. They are his first born, redeemed by Christ's blood. In their holy standing, believers are God's firstfruits" holy to the Lord, the firstfruits of his harvest" ( Jer 2:3 ). God's people are therefore to present themselves as holy firstfruits to God, as "living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God" ( Rom 12:1 ). In having the "firstfruits of the Spirit, " the work of the Spirit in effecting the present redemption of their souls, believers are given the guarantee that they will have the future redemption of their bodies at the second coming of Christ ( Rom 8:23 ).

In 1 Corinthians 15:20, 23, Paul teaches that Christ in his bodily resurrection is the "firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep." As such, he is the guarantee that all those who belong to him will be raised from the dead at his second coming. In the natural world, the first sheaf of the crop was to be brought to God ( Leviticus 23:10 Leviticus 23:11 Leviticus 23:17 ) as a guarantee that the rest of the harvest was coming. So it is in God's redemption harvest. First, Christ the "firstfruits" has triumphed in his resurrection; then, the rest of his "crop, " the redeemed, will be raised triumphantly at his second coming ( 1 Cor 15:23 ).

In light of this, God's people, as his "firstfruits, " are to have a sanctifying effect on others ( 1 Cor 5:6-7 ), just as Abraham and the patriarchs had a sanctifying effect on disobedient Israel ( Rom 11:14-16 ). Believers are to be true followers of the Lamb, just as the saints in the second coming, who are described as holy in life, "purchased from among men and offered as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb" ( Rev 14:4 ).

The term firstfruits is applied to different subjects or events making them prominent. It is not used as you are choosing to use it, as in indicating a common subject or event.

3Res. -
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Besides Romans 8:23, Hebrews 12:23 and 13:2 describe these resurrected 144,000 “First-fruits” Matt. 27 saints.  III John 5-7 speaks about them.  So does Ephesians 4:8-12.  And the first sickle harvest of Rev. 14:14-16 is the Matt. 27:52-53 resurrected saints.   They are the anti-type fulfillment of the type of the “First-fruits” harvest presented in Leviticus 23:9-12.  They are the indestructible “camp of the saints” within the city of Jerusalem, which became surrounded by Gog, the main leader Simon bar Giora of the Zealot rebellion in AD 69-70.   These “alive and remaining” resurrected saints provided a witness for Christ right up to the very end.  Then they were raptured out of the city through the eastern gate to meet the Lord in the air as He left the Mount of Olives to return to heaven with all His resurrected saints.

Hogwash! You are eaten up with old covenant local and literal interpretation of biblical prophecy in the persuit of conforming scripture to preconceived ideas. Abandon the above false testimony which neither scripture, or any historical accounts verify. All of the saints that were in Jerusalem when the Roman armies first surrounded it, fled before they came the second time as their Lord and Savior Jesus Christ warned them, and as history testifies.

https://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf201.iii.viii.v.html

Quote below from link above, emphasis is mine.

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Chapter V.—The Last Siege of the Jews after Christ.


1. After Nero had held the power thirteen years,622 and Galba and Otho had ruled a year and six months,623 Vespasian, who had become distinguished in the campaigns against the Jews, was proclaimed sovereign in Judea and received the title of Emperor from the armies there.624 Setting out immediately, therefore, for Rome, he entrusted the conduct of the war against the Jews to his son Titus.625
2. For the Jews after the ascension of our Saviour, in addition to their crime against him, had been devising as many plots as they could against his apostles. First Stephen was stoned to death by them,626 and after him James, the son of Zebedee and the brother of John, was beheaded,627 and finally James, the first that had obtained the episcopal seat in Jerusalem after the ascension of our Saviour, died in the manner already described.628 But the rest of the apostles, who had been incessantly plotted against with a view to their destruction, and had been driven out of the land of Judea, went unto all nations to preach the Gospel,629 relying upon the power of Christ, who had said to them, “Go ye and make disciples of all the nations in my name.”630
3. But the people of the church in Jerusalem had been commanded by a revelation, vouchsafed to approved men there before the war, to leave the city and to dwell in a certain town of Perea called Pella.631 And when those that believed in Christ had come thither from Jerusalem, then, as if the royal city of the Jews and the whole land of Judea were entirely destitute of holy men, the judgment of God at length overtook those who had committed such outrages against Christ and his apostles, and totally destroyed that generation of impious men.
4. But the number of calamities which everywhere fell upon the nation at that time; the extreme misfortunes to which the inhabitants of Judea were especially subjected, the thousands of men, as well as women and children, that perished by the sword, by famine, and by other forms of death innumerable,—all these things, as well as the many great sieges which were carried on against the cities of Judea, and the excessive. sufferings endured by those that fled to Jerusalem itself, as to a city of perfect safety, and finally the general course of the whole war, as well as its particular occurrences in detail, and how at last the abomination of desolation, proclaimed by the prophets,632 stood in the very temple of God, so celebrated of old, the temple which was now awaiting its total and final destruction by fire,—all these things any one that wishes may find accurately described in the history written by Josephus.633
5. But it is necessary to state that this writer records that the multitude of those who were assembled from all Judea at the time of the Passover, to the number of three million souls,634 were shut up in Jerusalem “as in a prison,” to use his own words.
6. For it was right that in the very days in which they had inflicted suffering upon the Saviour and the Benefactor of all, the Christ of God, that in those days, shut up “as in a prison,” they should meet with destruction at the hands of divine justice.
7. But passing by the particular calamities which they suffered from the attempts made upon them by the sword and by other means, I think it necessary to relate only the misfortunes which the famine caused, that those who read this work may have some means of knowing that God was not long in executing vengeance upon them for their wickedness against the Christ of God.

There were no new covenant saints in Jerusalem when it fell.

3Res. -
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Hymenaeus and Philetus based their false doctrine of a one-and-only past resurrection event around the very public existence of these resurrected Matt. 27:52-53 saints.  They didn’t realize that they were only the “FIRST-fruits” of the other resurrection events to come - one in AD 70, and one in our own future.

Quadratus the earliest Christian apologist gave testimony of the resurrected saints’ existence in his address to the emperor Hadrian.  Genuine miraculous resurrections who had “remained” on earth.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadratus_of_Athens

Quote below from link above, emphasis is mine.

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In his Ecclesiastical History, Book IV, chapter 3, Eusebius records that: 1. After Trajan had reigned for nineteen and a half years Ælius Adrian became his successor in the empire. To him Quadratus addressed a discourse containing an apology for our religion, because certain wicked men had attempted to trouble the Christians. The work is still in the hands of a great many of the brethren, as also in our own, and furnishes clear proofs of the man's understanding and of his apostolic orthodoxy. 2. He himself reveals the early date at which he lived in the following words: But the works of our Saviour were always present, for they were genuine:— those that were healed, and those that were raised from the dead, who were seen not only when they were healed and when they were raised, but were also always present; and not merely while the Saviour was on earth, but also after his death, they were alive for quite a while,[/b so that some of them lived even to our day. Such then was Quadratus.[3] In other words, Eusebius is stating that Quadratus addressed a discourse to the Roman Emperor Hadrian containing a defense, or apology, of the Christian religion, when the latter was visiting Athens in AD 124 or 125, which Eusebius states incorrectly[4] moved the emperor to issue a favourable edict. The mention that many of those healed or raised from the dead by Christ were still living seems to be part of an argument that Christ was no mere wonder-worker whose effects were transitory.

The above quote from Quadratus, quite disqualifies it as evidence of that which you teach. The reference is most obviously in relation to those healed and or resurrected while Christ was alive and well as one of us, not after or concurrent to His resurrection. For it specifically states, that they were not just present during His life, but also after His death. Some of them lived for quite a while after Christ’s death, but none of those you teach of ever died again. Quadratus simply was not talking about those you speak and teach of. None of those resurrected you are referring to, were alive and present during His life as one of us, but only after His resurrection. Nor do we have any record stating that those who came forth after Christ’s resurrection, remained among us. 2Ti 2:14  Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.


2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. 17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; 18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

Scripture does not say that Hymenaeus and Philetus error was preaching a one and only past resurrection, you have added your own testimony to that of scripture. The above scriptures clearly points out that their error was in teaching that the resurrection was past already. Which very thing you teach also. The resurrection the apostles spoke of and taught about, was not the resurrection you incorrectly teach and preach. If it was they could have clearly stated such, but instead Paul clearly stated the opposite in the above scriptures. Conclusively pointing out your teaching regarding the same as false.
« Last Edit: Fri Jan 22, 2021 - 11:18:57 by Amo »

Offline Amo

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #29 on: Fri Jan 22, 2021 - 11:21:56 »
3Res. -
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#4)  It is NOT the living saints who were to be “changed” into incorruptible forms in I Cor. 15; it was the *DEAD* BODIES of the saints (all of those asleep in the grave) who would be changed in the twinkling of an eye, at the last  (7th) trump of  Revelation.  Not one of all those saints would stay sleeping in death; ALL of the dead saints would be changed.

A “translation” change of the living is nowhere mentioned in either I Thess 4 or I Cor. 15.  ALL are appointed to die the one time (Heb. 9:27).

More hogwash! The verses are quite clear. Not all will sleep, but all will be changed, including those living when Christ returns.

1 Cor 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43  It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

All will be changed from mortal to immortal, from corrupted to incorruption, from dishonor to glory, from weakness to power, from our natural bodies to spiritual bodies. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
« Last Edit: Fri Jan 22, 2021 - 11:24:37 by Amo »

Offline Amo

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #30 on: Sat Jan 23, 2021 - 10:46:34 »
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#5)  Did you miss what I wrote about the archaeological evidence of the prophesied earthquake filling up the Kidron Valley with landslide rubble at Christ’s AD 70 return?  It was prophesied in Zech 14:4-5 (LXX) to fill up the valley as far as Azal, which it did in both King Uzziah’s day and in AD 70.  The two dated layers of rubble are still lying there in the Kidron Valley, which have raised the river’s bed by some 40’.

Historical evidence of Christ’s return?  We have casualty lists and AD 66 census records from Ussher’s Annals of the World we can compare which shows us that about 1.25 million people fled Jerusalem in obedience to Christ’s warning to flee both Jerusalem and Judea when they saw “Jerusalem compassed by armies” (Luke 21:20-21).  THEY believed Jesus’s warning about those last days when “the powers of heaven shall be shaken” (Luke 21:26), even if you don’t, Amo.

I most certainly do believe they fled as Christ commanded, as I have already stated. No earthquake was necessary to the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, as Roman armies accomplished this task very well, according to God’s word empowered by His hand as well no doubt. The signs Christ gave, and the earthquakes, were concerning events to transpire before Christ’s return, not at it. As Jesus Himself stated.

Mt 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? 4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

All the events described were to take place before Christ’s return, which is when this world ends as well. As Christ Himself testified.

Mt 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

The harvest is reaped at the end of the world, when Christ returns. He does not return before the end of this world, His return is the end of this world. There is no mention of the reaping of a harvest, or resurrection, or rapture, or secret coming of Christ unto such in scripture, prior to His second coming unto salvation for His own and destruction of the world. We are informed of a resurrection which took place at His resurrection, after which all biblical testimony is of no such thing again until He visibly returns again. Which has not happened, and which no one throughout history has claimed happened. Accepting perhaps those false prophets Jesus Himself stated would come, speaking just such lying testimony.
« Last Edit: Sat Jan 23, 2021 - 10:51:43 by Amo »

Offline Amo

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #31 on: Sat Jan 23, 2021 - 10:49:05 »
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#6)  “Gospel preached in all the world” before AD 70?  There was a post that covered this pretty extensively long ago in the Preterist forum, but here are just a couple off the cuff from Colossians 1:6 and 23.  “...the truth of the gospel; which is come unto you, AS IT IS IN ALL THE WORLD...”.   “...the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and WHICH WAS PREACHED TO EVERY CREATURE WHICH IS UNDER HEAVEN...”. You miss the fact that Jesus raised up the 144,000 “First-fruits” Matt. 27 saints to be used as an indestructible evangelistic labor force in those years after He ascended to heaven.  He left them as “laborers in the harvest” to work at building up the church before His AD 70 return.  Those resurrected saints had capabilities of traversing territory and reaching inaccessible areas that ordinary living saints could not cover by their limited resources.  By a combination of these ordinary and miraculous means, the gospel was indeed preached in all the world at that time before the end of the age came in AD 70.

Your 144,000 scenario is wholly extra biblical. There is no testimony anywhere regarding resurrected saints bringing the gospel to the entire world prior AD70. Here you are again playing the Preterist, referring to their forums, and using their interpretations while denying you are one of them.

If in fact, Paul meant that the gospel had already been preached in all the world and to all creation as Preterists and apparently you yourself do contend, then the end should have come at that time as Christ specified. Not later in AD70. Again though, you are simply interpreting scripture according to preconceived Preterist ideas, not letting scripture interpret itself. Paul continued to preach the gospel and admonished all Christ’s followers to do the same, as does all NT scripture. Quite obviously then, everyone had not yet heard the gospel of Jesus Christ, as we well know now.

Perhaps the following Amplified bible version of Colossians 1:6&23 can help you understand, emphasis is mine. Though I suspect that you already do, and have simply chosen to believe as the Preterists contend.

Col 1:4 for we have heard of your faith in Christ Jesus [how you lean on Him with absolute confidence in His power, wisdom, and goodness], and of the [unselfish] [c]love which you have for all the saints (God’s people); 5 because of the [confident] hope [of experiencing that] which is reserved and waiting for you in heaven. You previously heard of this hope in the message of truth, the gospel [regarding salvation] 6 which has come to you. Indeed, just as in the whole world the gospel is constantly bearing fruit and spreading [by God’s power], just as it has been doing among you ever since the day you first heard of it and understood the grace of God in truth [becoming thoroughly and deeply acquainted with it]…………………………..
21 And although you were at one time estranged and alienated and hostile-minded [toward Him], participating in evil things, 22 yet Christ has now reconciled you [to God] in His [g]physical body through death, in order to present you before the Father holy and blameless and beyond reproach— 23 [and He will do this] if you continue in the faith, well-grounded and steadfast, and not shifting away from the [confident] hope [that is a result] of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which [gospel] I, Paul, was made a minister.

Paul did not mean that the gospel had already gone out to the entire world via Christ’s disciples in verse six, but rather that it was going out to the entire world. Verse 23 is a reference to another truth Paul preached upon in the first chapter of his epistle to the Romans.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

God’s creation itself, has always been a witness to His eternal power and Godhead, leaving all who have rejected the same without excuse. The gospel of Jesus Christ itself confirming and establishing these truths beyond question. Which gospel is to go out to the entire world until the end. God Himself will determine when this mission has been accomplished, by His personal appearance to address just exactly who has, and who has not accepted the gospel of Jesus Christ. At which time the events you and Preterists insist happened already in AD70 at Jerusalem, will happen on a global scale which every eye will truly see, and every individual will personally deal with.


Offline Amo

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #32 on: Sat Jan 23, 2021 - 10:56:35 »
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#7)  What “falling away” transpired before AD 70?  The “apostasia” is not only a spiritual falling away (which actually took place especially in Asia, when all turned against Paul.  The “doctrine of Balaam” also corrupted many churches of that day with its lascivious doctrine.).

But the Greek term “apostasia” also encompasses the definition of a CIVIL REBELLION of a nation, which was launched officially with the revolt against Rome beginning in August of AD 66 (the attack on Roman troops at Masada and the cessation of sacrifices for the empire and the emperor in the temple, and the attack on the Roman troops garrisoned in the Fortress of Antonia).

This “mystery of lawlessness” - Zealot insurrection against Rome - was already at work, seething in the background in Paul’s day, and held in check by the high priesthood members loyal to Rome (the “who” that was restraining the Zealot outbreak - Ananaias ben Annas - as well as the “what” that was restraining the lawless Zealot outbreak - the high priesthood class).

The very first “Man of Lawlessness” competitor to battle his way to the top of the other Zealot leaders was Menahem, son or grandson of Judas the Galilean of Acts 5:37.   After murdering the high priest restrainer Ananias, (thus “taking him out of the way”), Menahem had a brief couple weeks with a meteoric rise of coming into power and actually getting into the temple, presenting himself as “king of the Jews”, dressed in King Herod’s stolen royal regalia.  This “brightness of his coming” into power was snuffed out almost immediately by Ananias’s son, Eleazar, taking vengeance on Menahem for murdering his high priest father.  It was NOT the brightness of CHRIST’S coming that killed Menahem, the Zealot Man of Lawlessness, because that “coming” was supposed to be after the works of Satan, using deception and  “lying wonders” (which would never be a sign of Christ’s coming).

So let me get this straight, you’re saying that the people who had already rejected the gospel of Jesus Christ and crucified the Son of God their promised Messiah, hadn’t fallen away from the truth yet in doing so? They only did so when they rebelled against the authority of the pagan Roman empire? The mystery of lawlessness was not in relation to the rejection of God’s Son and law, but rather the actions of those who had already done so in rejecting pagan Roman rulership? If this is not the hight of delusion, I do not know what is.

Paul was not preaching to the Jews who had already rejected Jesus Christ when warning of these future events. He was speaking to the Christian Thessalonians concerning the Christian church, not the Jews who had already rejected Jesus Christ, had already lost the kingdom of God, and whose house was already desolate.


Mt 21:33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country: 34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it. 35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another. 36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise. 37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. 38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. 39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him. 40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? 41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. 42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? 43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Lk 13:31 The same day there came certain of the Pharisees, saying unto him, Get thee out, and depart hence: for Herod will kill thee. 32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected. 33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem. 34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not! 35 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

The falling away and lawlessness Paul was referring to in his epistle to the Thessalonians, could not have been in relation to the Jews who had already rejected Jesus, or their temple. Their temple had already been left to them desolate, and the kingdom of God had already been taken away from them and given to others (the church) who alone could produce the fruits thereof.

Again, in your quest to defend Preterism, you are interpreting scripture according to the presumptions of the same. Conform your belief to that which scripture itself reveals, rather than conforming scripture to that which you simply have chosen or wish to believe. There could be no further falling away or lawlessness from the Jews who had already rejected and murdered the Messiah. Nor was Paul’s epistle to the Thessalonians directed toward or concerning them.


Offline Amo

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #33 on: Sat Jan 23, 2021 - 11:01:45 »
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#8)  What was the “strong delusion” that was believed before AD 70?  The Zealots gained a brief strategic victory against Cestius Gallus in AD 66, and routed that Roman legion completely at Beth Horon, stealing all their weaponry, war materiel, and catapults. 

Such a sudden victory at the very beginning of the Zealot’s revolt in AD 66 gave them a false sense of superiority and a deluded faith that God was on their side against the Romans.  Those who were wavering on whether to join the Zealot cause were then encouraged to get on board in the cause of the rebellion after that first major victory over the unfortunate, inept Roman general.  God let the Zealot factions believe this lie, in order to spur them on to their own nation’s destruction.

Same problem with the above rubbish, as that of point #7. These Jews had already rejected the gospel of their Messiah, persecuted Him, spat upon Him, tortured and crucified Him, and were actively persecuting His followers. They were already a totally deluded people, who had rejected the leadership of the Lord of glory, in favor of Roman rule(Jn 19:15). Now you claim that their later rejection of pagan Roman authority over them, was the height of delusion. I’m sorry, but I think what you are preaching is among the heights of delusion, and some of the exact delusion the apostle Paul was referring to in his epistle to the Thessalonians. Which delusion was in reference to Christianity, not Judaism.

I do believe you are correct however, in that God allowed them victory early on, to seal their doom for having already rejected and crucified the one who was the reason for their entire existence. This was the height of their delusion which they could never surpass. Nor once they had done so, could they ever again be said to have fallen away. For they had already completely fallen in rejecting the Lord of glory.

Offline Amo

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Re: Preterism
« Reply #34 on: Sat Jan 23, 2021 - 11:04:06 »
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#9)  “Kings of the earth” being high priests based on only “one obscure reference”?  I would hardly call Christ’s words about this “obscure”, but yes, there is more than this one reference identifying “kings of the earth” as high priests.  Try Hannah’s testimony in the LXX extolling God, who “gives strength to OUR KINGS”, (and Saul the first literal king of Israel isn’t even born yet).  Has to be the high priest kings that God strengthened.

Your reference to Hannah in the following verse, is no good example of what you claim. It is a prophecy concerning Christ the King, not the priests or kings of Israel. Though I am sure you already understand this, and are just grabbing whatever you can to support your unscriptural view that the kings of this earth in scripture is a reference to Israels priests. This of course is because your goal is to prove Preterism, or that of it which you have chosen to believe.

1Sa 2:10  The adversaries of the LORD shall be broken to pieces; out of heaven shall he thunder upon them: the LORD shall judge the ends of the earth; and he shall give strength unto his king, and exalt the horn of his anointed.


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You yourself, Amo, used the reference above that God formerly called Israel a “KINGdom of PRIESTS”.  This shows us that Israel’s royalty was in its Priesthood - not the usual sense of a monarchy ruling the nation.

The THRONE of the kingdom that the crowned Christ is currently sitting on in heaven is the mercy seat, with Jesus as the “prince of the kings of the earth” - the “king of kings” high priest upon that throne as our mediator, who supersedes all other high priest kings before Him.

He also calls His new covenant church kings and priests right in the opening of the first chapter of the book of Revelation. Does this not make the church of Christ the kings of this earth who commit fornication with Babylon the great, according to your misguided understanding and twisted logic? Yes it does. Moreover, since it is right in the opening of the book of Revelation itself, this interpretation must necessarily then take precedence over your’s. Should it not? If not why not?

Rev 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; 5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Christ is the prince of the kings of the earth, who are defined in the very next verse as the Christians whom He has made kings and priests unto God his Father. I can see why you would leave such a detail out, in defending Preterism. These kings are most obviously in contrast to the kings of this earth who commit fornication with Babylon the great. It is your chosen belief that requires they are one and the same, not the scriptures. Jesus Christ is not the prince of the kings of this earth who reject His word and authority in favor of Babylon the great’s. This confusion arises from the twisted logic of Preterism, not God’s word. Yes, it makes good sense that you did not quote the verses you were referring to in your above point being addressed. The verse itself causes major problems for the idea you are attempting to use as support for the same.


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High priests always wore a crown of gold encircling their forehead, with “Holiness to the Lord” engraved on it.  Crowns are for kings.  And the high priests were called kings often in the OT.  Try Melchizedek for one.  “KING of Salem...the PRIEST of the most high God” (Gen. 14:18).

Yes, the High priests of Israel did wear a crown which typified our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ who was and is both King and Priest. This King though, was not like the kings of this earth, nor was his place and or purpose as theirs either. You do err in suggesting otherwise.

Exo 28:36 And thou shalt make a plate of pure gold, and grave upon it, like the engravings of a signet, HOLINESS TO THE LORD. And thou shalt put it on a blue lace, that it may be upon the mitre; upon the forefront of the mitre it shall be. And it shall be upon Aaron's forehead, that Aaron may bear the iniquity of the holy things, which the children of Israel shall hallow in all their holy gifts; and it shall be always upon his forehead, that they may be accepted before the LORD.

This crown was was testifying that its wearer was bearing the iniquity of the children of Israel, that they might be accepted before the Lord. It typified the sacrifice of our King, Lord, and Savior Jesus Christ for the sins of the world, which alone makes any sinner such as ourselves acceptable before the Lord. As such it most obviously is separate from and infinitely above all other crowns. To suggest that it represents the crowns of the kings of this earth, who would commit fornication with Babylon the great is blasphemous, and silly as Preterism itself is therefore also in suggesting such.

Your position concerning Melchizedek is likewise twisted and faulty, as he himself was likewise a type of Christ and therefore separate from all other kings and priests of and or in this world.

Ps 110:1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. 2 The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies. 3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth. 4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek. 5 The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath. 6 He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries.

Heb 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? 12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. 13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar. 14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood. 15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest, 16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life. 17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. 18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. 19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God. 20 And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest: 21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:) 22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament. 23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death: 24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. 25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. 26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; 27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself. 28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

Again, your examples or proofs, are in fact the exact opposite of that which you are attempting to make them out to be. They are examples of a Kingship and Priesthood far above and beyond any of those of this earth, and most certainly completely separate from Babylon the great. To suggest that these kings or priests represent the kings of this earth who commit fornication with Babylon the great is nothing short of blasphemous.


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We ourselves as saints are called “KINGS and (kai - NAMELY) PRIESTS unto God and His Father...” in Rev. 1:6.

Yes we are, as I have already pointed out in proper biblical context. Which context you not only avoided by not referencing the very scriptures which state them, but twisted out of context and misapplied to the literal kings of this earth when it suited your argument. Which scripture you do now reference in proper context, only after being twisted again toward your own Preterist views contradictory to scripture itself. So be it. Deception is as deception does. 

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That’s the best I can do at short notice this evening Amo.  Though I don’t think any of this will register with you - you’re too firmly entrenched in your position to consider that you might be off track somewhere.   But I don’t consider you a “false prophet”  - just a mistaken one on a bunch of eschatology, but not on everything.  Much of your material above on Old Covenant Israel versus the New Covenant Israel of God is very sound. 

And I’m also not a fan of the mystery meat baloney either…

Then your best on short notice is quite obviously not very good. You are correct, I am firmly entrenched within the properly divided truths of God’s word. By His grace may I never be moved. Nevertheless, by His grace do I now ask for the same in revealing to me any and all deception I may have fallen prey to. Your arguments however, are not nearly scripturally sound enough to convince me at all of the truthfulness of your position. Whether or not you care for baloney, has little to do with whether or not your positions are full of it. It is a more polite term, expressing a far more crude one. I will not call you a false prophet, but rather quote the words of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ from scripture addressing them in closing this post.

Mt 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
« Last Edit: Sat Jan 23, 2021 - 11:06:25 by Amo »

 

     
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