Question about Baptisms

[marina.doneda]

First of all, this is my first official post, so hello and Happy Sabbath everyone!

I'm feeling a bit lost today.

I've been studying the SDA faith and Bible for almost 2 years now. I decided that I wanted to be baptized about 1 year ago.

First off let me say that I live in Brazil and attend an SDA church here. I go every Saturday -even though I can't understand what the sermons are about as my Portuguese is not great! When I first arrived here 9 months ago I studied with a woman from the church who spoke English. She got me the pre-baptism study guides in English and helped me study them. I moved to Brazil 9 months ago to marry my fiancee. We were told that we could get married when I first arrived in Brazil; however, due to government rules and regulations about non-Brazilians marrying Brazilians we have had to wait.

Since we wanted to get married in the church they (the church) told us that I needed to wait to be Baptized until right before the wedding. I am unclear as to why I needed to wait until right before the wedding, but this is what they said I had to do. We were finally approved to get married last week and our wedding date is set for October 10, 2009. (finally!! ). However, again because of government rules! we are not allowed to marry inside the church and instead have to do a courthouse ceremony. So, since we can't actually get married in the church I figured that meant I could go ahead and get baptized now, instead of having to wait until right before the wedding.

There is one other baptism today at the church so I asked today if I could join in that baptism. The pastor told me that no I could not. They said that I could not be baptized by the church until I'm married!! Because my fiance and I have been living together here in Brazil. I explained to the pastor that the only reason that we have been living together is because the government of Brazil would not LET us get married, and the government of the United States (where I'm from) wont even let my fiance in the country!

So I'm very upset! I have been actively trying to get baptized here for 9 months and first they told me I had to wait until right before the wedding and now they are telling me I cannot get baptized at all until after the wedding. I'm very distraught as I do not feel like I have done anything wrong.

There are mass adventist baptisms all of the time of THOUSANDS of people. One article that I looked at said that some of the thousands had bible study sessions before hand -but to me, this implies that some of them did not.

So, answer me this, why are thousands of people who hear one adventist sermon allowed to be baptized as adventists; but someone who has been studying for months and attending church and living to the best of her ability as a good adventist not allowed to be baptized simply because of bureaucratic rules that she had no control of?

And I apologize if this post is very confusing and random, but I'm struggling to find a good answer to my question.

[Amo]

Strange circumstances.  I do not know why you were told to wait for baptism till right before you get married.  That makes no sense.  Have you been living with your fiance for the last nine months?  I can understand your Pastor not wanting to baptize you if you were living with a man out of wedlock.  Perhaps he wanted to make sure you were really getting married before he baptized you.

[janine]

If the SDAs you are studying with believe that you mess up your baptismal clean-ness as soon as you sin again after baptism... then what good is baptism?

If you want to get married, get married.  If you want to try to make a church like the SDAs accept that you are good enough to go to Heaven, don't live with your fiance and then see what they say.

I say the whole thing is a crock, anyway.

I am one who does believe that immersion of the believer is part of the whole picture when it comes to salvation. So I'm certainly not ever going to advise a believer to avoid or delay baptism.

What do they think baptism will do for you, anyway?  If in their minds you can be right with God and live toward holiness and go to Heaven when you die, without baptism, then why do they want you to do it?  To become part of their congregation?

If you and your fiance consider yourselves married, then you are, so far as God is concerned.  It's man you need to please, if man's law will make life hard for you unmarried.

[marina.doneda]

Thanks everyone for your replies. You said the same thing my fiance said to me. He said he remembers his mom having problems with the church once upon a time and saying the same thing to him. His mom died when he was 12 but he says he will always remember her looking down at him and saying "Son, don't look toward man, just look toward God".

As you implied, we have considered ourselves married since I arrived here. I understand the rules that we are technically living out of wedlock together, but at the same time, this is not something that we could control. We both consider ourselves husband and wife and use these terms to refer to each other, as well as wearing wedding rings. But most importantly, we consider ourselves married in our hearts. Our wedding ceremony on October 10th will be just that, a ceremony. It will change nothing for either of us. And believe me! We would have much rather done this back in January when I got here!!

I was just very frustrated with the outcome today. And like you said Janine, what good is baptism if it is considered invalid right after you sin? I don't think that is the SDA's official standing on the whole thing, but sometimes they are just so stuck on their rules that they cannot see what is in front of them. Yes, might be living out of wedlock, but why?? Should I really have been staying in a hotel for the last 9 months? Just for the record as well, every week for the past 9 months the Brazilian judge who has been dealing with our marriage case has been saying "next week it will be ready", "call back next week", ect ect ect.....there was no way for us to know it was going to take 9 months!

Anyway, thanks for the support!

[Amo]

If you want to get married, get married.  If you want to try to make a church like the SDAs accept that you are good enough to go to Heaven, don't live with your fiance and then see what they say.

No one is good enough to go to heaven.  I don't believe that is the issue here.  I do not believe that anyone who is living in sin, and plans to continue to do so, should bother getting baptized.  

Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Repentance is a prerequisite for baptism.  If you have no intention of repenting of known sin in your life, there is no sense in getting baptized.  Apparently her pastor has an issue with baptising someone who might not fully appreciate this truth.  In any case, it seems he would prefer that they prove their sincerity by not living together before she gets baptized.  Of course this is all conjecture since we probably don't know all the facts involved.

I would say that your marriage to Christ through baptism is more important than the other.  Take care of it first, then marry your fiance.  If the state told you, you could not get baptized, would you listen to them.  They are telling you that you can't get married, perhaps you shouldn't listen to them.  Find a pastor that will marry you, and let the state acknowledge it later if they will.  If not, you will still be married in God's eyes.  Marriage and baptism were both instituted by God.  When the state tells us to do something which contradicts God's word, we should obey God rather than man.

Acts 5:27 And when they had brought them, they set them before the council: and the high priest asked them,
28 Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us.
29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

[janine]

And so they ought to go ahead and get married at the courthouse, and should have as soon as they were both in town and needing to marry.  Never mind what the SDAs said about timing.

And if someone came to me wanting to be baptized into the Lord, I'd do it right now.  If there were a problem in their life that could lead to sin or misunderstandings or hurt their "witness", I'd discuss it with them, with Bible in hand, and we'd get to work on changing things -- but the immersion would happen as soon as we could reasonably get to the water.

[Amo]

And so they ought to go ahead and get married at the courthouse, and should have as soon as they were both in town and needing to marry.  Never mind what the SDAs said about timing.

And if someone came to me wanting to be baptized into the Lord, I'd do it right now.  If there were a problem in their life that could lead to sin or misunderstandings or hurt their "witness", I'd discuss it with them, with Bible in hand, and we'd get to work on changing things -- but the immersion would happen as soon as we could reasonably get to the water.

They can't get married at the court house, the state won't let them, which is the main problem.  Baptizing someone who does not even understand the gospel will accomplish nothing.  If they do not understand, or accept the concept of repentance, they will remain in their sins.  Baptism will do nothing for them.


Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

[marina.doneda]

I see your point Amo, but I think your logic fails when you put all of the pieces together.

Of course I agree that many who think they are "saved" have never truly known Christ. But who are we to judge exactly who truly knows Christ and who does not? That is not our place to do. And that, my friend, is exactly what you have done here.

What if...just for a moment imagine...what if God does not see what I am doing as wrong? What really validates a marriage anyway? A signed piece of paper given by the state?? The ceremony that my fiance and I will have on October 10th at the courthouse here will have nothing to do with God, really. State will say that we are married, but what will God say? Will God consider us married now that we've signed our name to a piece of paper?? Also, for the record, we did ask the pastor to "marry us" (without the state) when I first got here. He said no. That we couldn't do a church wedding until after the courthouse one. He said we were free to do a church wedding after the couthouse, but not before. So again, I ask you, what validates a marriage? Let's look and see what the Bible says:

Matthew 19:4-6 "At the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female 'and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh. So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate".

Okay, so this is not 100% clear, is it? I searched the concordance of my Bible for any other reference that was relevant to either your side or mine, and I couldn't find anything else.

In my opinion, as Janine said before, we are already married and God considers us so.

So, imagine for one second that I am right. We are already married in the eyes of God, therefore, us living together is not sinful. Therefore, my baptism would be perfectly valid. And you and my pastor, are not allowing me to be baptized. What if I died tomorrow? Not leading a sinful life and not being baptized....but at no fault of my own, but my pastor who will not baptize me? Whose hands is my blood on? Mine -trying everything in my power to be baptized- or yours -who refuses to baptize me?

In my opinion, the best solution here would be for the pastor to baptize me as soon as possible; however, while making clear his opinion of the validity of the baptism. The reason I think your logic is failed is because it assumes that you known God's ways. Look at Romans Chapter 14. --Let each man be fully convinced in his own mind. Each of us will give an account of himself to God. Therefore, let us stop passing judgment on one another!

Your logic gives no room for the possibility that you are wrong. I'm not saying God's ways are wrong at all, simply acknowledging the possibility that YOU might be wrong. And if you are, and I died, what then? Whose to blame for my lost soul? If you are right and the pastor lets me know his standing and still baptizes me simply because we are only human and cannot know God's ways, then what have we lost? Nothing. My salvation is all on me. (I think this was the point that Janine was getting at when she said she would baptizes anyone as quickly as they could get to water if they wanted to). Again, I point to Romans Chapter 14, verse 5: "Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind".

[Amo]

I see your point Amo, but I think your logic fails when you put all of the pieces together.

Of course I agree that many who think they are "saved" have never truly known Christ. But who are we to judge exactly who truly knows Christ and who does not? That is not our place to do. And that, my friend, is exactly what you have done here.

What if...just for a moment imagine...what if God does not see what I am doing as wrong? What really validates a marriage anyway? A signed piece of paper given by the state?? The ceremony that my fiance and I will have on October 10th at the courthouse here will have nothing to do with God, really. State will say that we are married, but what will God say? Will God consider us married now that we've signed our name to a piece of paper?? Also, for the record, we did ask the pastor to "marry us" (without the state) when I first got here. He said no. That we couldn't do a church wedding until after the courthouse one. He said we were free to do a church wedding after the couthouse, but not before. So again, I ask you, what validates a marriage? Let's look and see what the Bible says:

Matthew 19:4-6 "At the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female 'and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh. So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate".

Okay, so this is not 100% clear, is it? I searched the concordance of my Bible for any other reference that was relevant to either your side or mine, and I couldn't find anything else.

In my opinion, as Janine said before, we are already married and God considers us so.

So, imagine for one second that I am right. We are already married in the eyes of God, therefore, us living together is not sinful. Therefore, my baptism would be perfectly valid. And you and my pastor, are not allowing me to be baptized. What if I died tomorrow? Not leading a sinful life and not being baptized....but at no fault of my own, but my pastor who will not baptize me? Whose hands is my blood on? Mine -trying everything in my power to be baptized- or yours -who refuses to baptize me?

In my opinion, the best solution here would be for the pastor to baptize me as soon as possible; however, while making clear his opinion of the validity of the baptism. The reason I think your logic is failed is because it assumes that you known God's ways. Look at Romans Chapter 14. --Let each man be fully convinced in his own mind. Each of us will give an account of himself to God. Therefore, let us stop passing judgment on one another!

Your logic gives no room for the possibility that you are wrong. I'm not saying God's ways are wrong at all, simply acknowledging the possibility that YOU might be wrong. And if you are, and I died, what then? Whose to blame for my lost soul? If you are right and the pastor lets me know his standing and still baptizes me simply because we are only human and cannot know God's ways, then what have we lost? Nothing. My salvation is all on me. (I think this was the point that Janine was getting at when she said she would baptizes anyone as quickly as they could get to water if they wanted to). Again, I point to Romans Chapter 14, verse 5: "Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind".

Anyone who has accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as their personal Savior, will not lose salvation because someone refused to baptize them.  Baptism is a public confession of your faith.  It is your confession, that you wish to die with Christ on the cross, and be raised unto newness of life, His life.  The thief on the cross was not baptized, but he will be saved for his faith.  So to will anyone who was not baptized because of situations beyond their control. 

Your pastor should have married you.  It is not for the state, to dictate to the Church wether or not they can marry this or that couple.  In any case, if you were living in sin, by living together and having sexual relations before being married, then the right thing for your pastor to do, would be to marry you and thereby solve the problem.  For this is what you wanted in the first place. 

I do not say that you were having sexual relations, only that a man and a woman living together for at least nine months now, is highly suggestive of the same.  I am not your judge though.  The SDA church will not knowingly baptize men and women that are living together out of wedlock.  If you personally demand one that will, then I suggest you find another church.  All churches must decide what their standards will be.  If they will change that standard continually according to the wants of their members, they will be in a constant state of confusion.

I do not know why your pastor would not marry you.  It seems to me that he should have.  I personally do agree though, that the SDA church should not baptize unmarried couples living together.  If one wants to be a follower of Christ, I believe, at the very least, they should want to shun the appearance of evil. 


1Thes 5:14 Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men.
15 See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.
16 Rejoice evermore.
17 Pray without ceasing.
18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
19 Quench not the Spirit.
20 Despise not prophesyings.
21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.
23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Fornication is a sin.  We should avoid the appearance of it in our lives.  As any other sin, it can be forgiven.  Nevertheless, there is no sense in baptizing someone into Christ, that does not care if they are doing that which appears to implicate them in the same.  Just as no one else should be baptized who is seemingly indifferent toward the committing of any other sin.

Again, I do not judge you, for I am not your judge.  Neither is the church.  Still, the church must set, and maintain standards. I will continue to pray for your situation.  I suggest you find another SDA pastor that understands that he not subordinate to the state in regard to spiritual things.  He should be willing to marry you.  If you can't find one there, take a trip to the US, I'm sure you will find one here.  God bless.

[Amo]

I just remembered something my pastor said to me when I asked him about this situation.  SDA pastors can marry two SDA's, or two non SDA's, but not An SDA and a non SDA.  Neither should they baptize unmarried couples living together.  Thus the dilemma you are in.  I think you will either have to live elsewhere in order to get baptized, or get married in another church.  Is your finance an SDA?  Surely the two of you can come up with something.  If you are really in love and determined to get married, I'm sure you can work this one out. 

[current occupant]

will an SDA pastor baptize a person who has accepted Jesus if they do not desire membership in the SDA Church?

[Amo]

will an SDA pastor baptize a person who has accepted Jesus if they do not desire membership in the SDA Church?

I don't know.  I'll have to check that one out. 

[current occupant]

will an SDA pastor baptize a person who has accepted Jesus if they do not desire membership in the SDA Church?

I don't know.  I'll have to check that one out. 

Have you checked this out yet???

[djconklin]

will an SDA pastor baptize a person who has accepted Jesus if they do not desire membership in the SDA Church?

To the best of my knowledge only the SDA's and the Baptists require baptism.

[current occupant]

will an SDA pastor baptize a person who has accepted Jesus if they do not desire membership in the SDA Church?

To the best of my knowledge only the SDA's and the Baptists require baptism.

That was not the question.  Would be pleased if you would not assume a question that hasn't been asked.refrain from assuming a question that has not been asked.