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ObeyTheGospel

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Refuting the doctrine of soul sleep
« on: December 24, 2011, 05:20:02 PM »
I am somebody who use to believe in soul sleep, but I now believe it is a false doctrine. There are some scriptures that may seem to teach soul sleep at first glance, but we need to understand that the Bible is finite and the universe is infinite. There are many mysteries that we still don't understand and we can't rely on just a few vague scriptures to come to a solid conclusion. I would like to make a point as to why the parable of the rich man and Lazarus does indeed point to consciousness after death:

We are often told that Hades is simply the grave, a state of total unconsciousness. We are also told that the rich man and Lazarus is just a parable and was never a real event. I admit that I'm not sure about this. Maybe it was a real event or maybe it wasn't. However, even if it wasn't a real event I believe that Jesus was using this to give us an insight of the afterlife. Let me explain why:

If Hades is simply a state of unconsciousness, why did Jesus relate this to a place of torment? He could have related this parable to something else other than Hades, but instead He related Hades to a place of torment for the wicked and a place of comfort for the righteous. It seems clear that Jesus did not believe Hades was just a state of unconsciousness. It says very clearly, the rich man was in Hades. So what if it wasn't a real event? Why would Jesus relate a place of torment to Hades if Hades was just a place where everyone slept?

I think people are confused because they have been told that Sheol and Hades means the grave, a place of unconsciousness. Well, Sheol and Hades are the grave, but not just a place of unconsciousness. There is evidence that Satan and demons are in Sheol:

"How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, you who weakened the nations.....Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, to the lowest depths of the Pit." (Isaiah 14:12-15).

We see in Isaiah 14:15 that Sheol has a depth of Pits. Satan is also said to be prowling around on the earth, but I believe he also has a place in the depths of the earth. Why is it that demons are suppose to smell like sulphur? Could it be because some demons are dwelling in hell, the lower parts of the earth? There are also many verses that show the wicked going down into the Pit:

Yet they bear their shame with those who go down to the pit (Ezekiel 32:30)

He will deliver his soul from going into the pit (Job 33:24)

Do not hide Your face from me, lest I be like those who go down into the Pit (Psalm 143:7)

To him was given the key to the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:1)

And he opened the bottomless pit, and smoke arose out of the pit like the smoke of a great furnace (Revelation 9:2)

It's quite obvious that the Pit is more than just a place of unconsciousness. Another thing that has confused people is that we often see righteous people going into Sheol, and therefore people conclude that Sheol can't be a place of torment. However, we have a good idea from the parable of the rich man and Lazarus that there were two parts to Sheol/Hades. One part was a comforting place for the righteous, but the other part was a place of torment for the wicked. I agree that Sheol is also used to describe the grave, but the grave doesn't simply mean a state of unconsciousness, not for the soul anyway.

Your thoughts?

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Refuting the doctrine of soul sleep
« on: December 24, 2011, 05:20:02 PM »

larry2

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Re: Refuting the doctrine of soul sleep
« Reply #1 on: December 24, 2011, 11:36:37 PM »
There is a thread posted, "Death, Hell, and the Lake of fire" at the following link that brought much good discussion on the subject if you're interested. I hope it is of value to you.

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/death-hell-and-the-lake-of-fire/msg603066/?topicseen#msg603066

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Re: Refuting the doctrine of soul sleep
« Reply #1 on: December 24, 2011, 11:36:37 PM »

Offline Bitter Sweet

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Re: Refuting the doctrine of soul sleep
« Reply #2 on: December 25, 2011, 02:33:46 AM »
"How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, you who weakened the nations.....Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, to the lowest depths of the Pit." (Isaiah 14:12-15).

It's actually the son of Dawn, her name translates to mean Dawn.

Amo

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Re: Refuting the doctrine of soul sleep
« Reply #3 on: December 25, 2011, 03:35:49 AM »
Now to the definition of the bottomless pit into which Satan was cast.  The definition of which, will reveal that the lost are dead during this thousand year period.  Let us look at some scriptures to see what a bottomless pit might represent.

Job 17  13 If I wait, the grave is mine house: I have made my bed in the darkness. 14 I have said to corruption, Thou art my father: to the worm, Thou art my mother, and my sister. 15 And where is now my hope? as for my hope, who shall see it? 16 They shall go down to the bars of the pit, when our rest together is in the dust.

Psalm 30  3 O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit.

Proverbs 1  11 If they say, Come with us, let us lay wait for blood, let us lurk privily for the innocent without cause: 12 Let us swallow them up alive as the grave; and whole, as those that go down into the pit:

Isaiah 38  17 Behold, for peace I had great bitterness: but thou hast in love to my soul delivered it from the pit of corruption: for thou hast cast all my sins behind thy back. 18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.

Jeremiah 41  7 And it was so, when they came into the midst of the city, that Ishmael the son of Nethaniah slew them, and cast them into the midst of the pit, he, and the men that were with him.

9 Now the pit wherein Ishmael had cast all the dead bodies of the men, whom he had slain because of Gedaliah, was it which Asa the king had made for fear of Baasha king of Israel: and Ishmael the son of Nethaniah filled it with them that were slain.


In the bible, a pit is very often associated with the grave, or a place to put the dead.  A bottomless pit then, would undoubtedly represent an enormous grave, filled with countless people.  If the bible then, tells us that all the lost will be slain when Christ returns the second time, which it does, then this world would be one massive grave.  The dead bodies of countless millions strewn all over it.  This is in fact where Satan is bound for this thousand years.  While the saved are in heaven going over the book of life, he is here with nothing but the dead.  Thus Satan can no longer deceive the nations during this thousand years, for there are no nations, or peoples to deceive.  Jeremiah speaks of the world in this condition.

Jer 25:  30 Therefore prophesy thou against them all these words, and say unto them, The LORD shall roar from on high, and utter his voice from his holy habitation; he shall mightily roar upon his habitation; he shall give a shout, as they that tread the grapes, against all the inhabitants of the earth.
31 A noise shall come even to the ends of the earth; for the LORD hath a controversy with the nations, he will plead with all flesh; he will give them that are wicked to the sword, saith the LORD.
32 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Behold, evil shall go forth from nation to nation, and a great whirlwind shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth.
33 And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground.

Jer 4: 23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. 24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. 25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. 26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.

Isaiah not only spoke of this condition of the earth, but prophesied of the very things we are discussing.

Isaiah 14  12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. 15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. 16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; 17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners? 18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house. 19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet. 20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.


Though all the kings, and people will be slain, yet Satan will not join them in burial.  Though he be in the pit with them, the bottomless pit, yet he will not be given the rest of the sleep of the dead.  He will live for a thousand years alone with no one to deceive, and nothing to do but ponder the effects of the works of his own hands.  Ever looking forward to the judgment, and his destruction at the end of the thousand years.

Isaiah 24  18 And it shall come to pass, that he who fleeth from the noise of the fear shall fall into the pit; and he that cometh up out of the midst of the pit shall be taken in the snare: for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake. 19 The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly. 20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again. 21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth. 22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited. 23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

Here again, Isaiah is referring to the destruction of the earth, and the death of the wicked. When the wicked are gathered together in the pit, that is dead, and shut up in death as in prison (Job3:11-18, Isa. 53:8), then they will be visited after many days. That many days would be the thousand years that we are discussing, and it will not be well for them when they are visited.

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Re: Refuting the doctrine of soul sleep
« Reply #3 on: December 25, 2011, 03:35:49 AM »

Amo

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Re: Refuting the doctrine of soul sleep
« Reply #4 on: December 25, 2011, 03:37:29 AM »

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

When God united His breath, or spirit with man, man became a living soul. A living soul is composed of body and spirit.

05397 hmvn n@shamah nesh-aw-maw'

from 05395; n f; {See TWOT on 1433 @@ '1433a'}

AV-breath 17, blast 3, spirit 2, inspiration 1, souls 1; 24

1) breath, spirit
1a) breath (of God)
1b) breath (of man)
1c) every breathing thing
1d) spirit (of man)

When one dies, their spirit goes back to God who gave it, at which point, one is no longer a living soul.  This is why humanity is not immortal, and must receive the same from God as a gift of salvation.

Eccl 12:5..….. because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets: 6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. 7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

When the dust returns to the earth, and the spirit back to God who gave it, there is no longer a living soul. If the soul were immortal, then the scriptures would not speak of living, or dying souls. Of course a soul would be living if souls were immortal, and of course they would never be spoken of as dying if they were immortal either. So why do the scriptures apply both to the soul?

Ps 6:2 Have mercy upon me, O LORD; for I am weak: O LORD, heal me; for my bones are vexed. 3 My soul is also sore vexed: but thou, O LORD, how long? 4 Return, O LORD, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies' sake. 5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

In the above, David seeks to have himself, that is his soul delivered from death, because in the grave there is no remembrance of God, and he cannot give God thanks from the grave. How is this possible if the soul is immortal? If the soul were alive and in heaven with God surely it would be praising Him. Or if it were in hell, surely it would be cursing Him.

Ps 7:1 O LORD my God, in thee do I put my trust: save me from all them that persecute me, and deliver me: 2 Lest he tear my soul like a lion, rending it in pieces, while there is none to deliver. 3 O LORD my God, if I have done this; if there be iniquity in my hands; 4 If I have rewarded evil unto him that was at peace with me; (yea, I have delivered him that without cause is mine enemy:) 5 Let the enemy persecute my soul, and take it; yea, let him tread down my life upon the earth, and lay mine honour in the dust. Selah.

Again what sense do the above verses make if a soul is not a living person, rather than some floating entity that lives apart from the body? Can a soul be torn to pieces? Will it end when ones life does? Yes it will.

Ps 30:2 O LORD my God, I cried unto thee, and thou hast healed me. 3 O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit.

How can a soul go to the grave? If it is immortal and goes to heaven or hell at death it should not be spoken of as dying and going to the grave. If on the other hand, it is a living being, then it could be said that ones soul goes to the grave when they die, it is it’s end. When life ends, it ends.

Ps 33:18 Behold, the eye of the LORD is upon them that fear him, upon them that hope in his mercy; 19 To deliver their soul from death, and to keep them alive in famine. 20 Our soul waiteth for the LORD: he is our help and our shield. 21 For our heart shall rejoice in him, because we have trusted in his holy name. 22 Let thy mercy, O LORD, be upon us, according as we hope in thee.

If our souls must be delivered from death, then they are not immortal. They are like us, they are us, when we are alive. When we are raised from the dead and given everlasting life, we will again be living souls.

Ps 40:13 Be pleased, O LORD, to deliver me: O LORD, make haste to help me. 14 Let them be ashamed and confounded together that seek after my soul to destroy it; let them be driven backward and put to shame that wish me evil.

Who can destroy a soul if it is immortal? It is not. When life ends, it ends, because when one is alive, they are a living soul.

Ps 49:12 Nevertheless man being in honour abideth not: he is like the beasts that perish. 13 This their way is their folly: yet their posterity approve their sayings. Selah. 14 Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them; and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their beauty shall consume in the grave from their dwelling. 15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah.

Again the soul being associated with life, being redeemed from the grave. If it were immortal, this would not be so.

Ps 56:12 Thy vows are upon me, O God: I will render praises unto thee. 13 For thou hast delivered my soul from death:wilt not thou deliver my feet from falling, that I may walk before God in the light of the living?

Again, when God delivers the soul from death, one can walk in the light of the living. Makes no sense if the soul is immortal.

Ps 78:49 He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels among them. 50 He made a way to his anger; he spared not their soul from death, but gave their life over to the pestilence; 51 And smote all the firstborn in Egypt; the chief of their strength in the tabernacles of Ham:

God spared not the Egyptians souls from death, but killed them by the plagues. Their souls died, that is, they died. Obviously their souls were not immortal.

Ps 86:1 Bow down thine ear, O LORD, hear me: for I am poor and needy. 2 Preserve my soul; for I am holy: O thou my God, save thy servant that trusteth in thee. 3 Be merciful unto me, O Lord: for I cry unto thee daily.

Who needs their soul to be preserved if it is immortal?

Ps 89:47 Remember how short my time is: wherefore hast thou made all men in vain? 48 What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah.

Again, why wold a soul go to the grave at death if it is immortal and goes to heaven or hell at death? It is because the body goes into the grave at death, it is a dead soul, it is not living, because the body and the breath or spirit from God have separated.

Ps 116:7 Return unto thy rest, O my soul; for the LORD hath dealt bountifully with thee. 8 For thou hast delivered my soul from death, mine eyes from tears, and my feet from falling. 9 I will walk before the LORD in the land of the living.

Because his soul was delivered from death, he will walk before the Lord in the land of the living, he is a living soul.

Ps 119:174 I have longed for thy salvation, O LORD; and thy law is my delight. 175 Let my soul live, and it shall praise thee; and let thy judgments help me. 176 I have gone astray like a lost sheep; seek thy servant; for I do not forget thy commandments.

Makes no sense if the soul is immortal.

Isa 38:16 O Lord, by these things men live, and in all these things is the life of my spirit: so wilt thou recover me, and make me to live. 17 Behold, for peace I had great bitterness: but thou hast in love to my soul delivered it from the pit of corruption: for thou hast cast all my sins behind thy back. 18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. 19 The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I do this day: the father to the children shall make known thy truth.

Because he was delivered from death, his soul was delivered from the pit of corruption, that is, the grave. The living, they are the ones who praise God. The dead cannot, because they are not living souls. All such nonsense if the soul is immortal.

Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

A prophecy concerning Christ. How can a soul be an offering? A sacrifice must die. If the soul is immortal, then it cannot be a sacrifice. Yet Christ poured out His soul unto death for our sins. He died the death we deserved, and when He did, He was no longer a living soul.

Ezek 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Is God a liar? If a soul is immortal it cannot die. God says the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Ezek 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. 21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. 23Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live? 24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. 25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal? 26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. 27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.

Again, the soul is identified with the person. If the person lives, the soul lives. If the person dies, the soul dies. A soul is a living person with a body combined with the breath, or spirit from God.

Matt 10: 28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

God will destroy both body and soul in hell. The soul is not immortal.

Matt 16: 25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. 26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

How can one lose their soul, if their soul is immortal? Where could it go to get away from them.

Acts 2: 27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. 29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Christ was raised before His body saw corruption. Thus His soul was not left in hell, or the grave. He once again walked in the light of the living, that is, He became a living soul. This is our salvation. Our souls will not be left in the prison house of death, but we will once again be raised and receive the breath, or spirit of God in our spiritual bodies, and then we shall ever be with the Lord.

Acts 3: 22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

Every soul that will not hear and accept Christ, will be destroyed.

1 Cor 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

No mistake about when it is that we receive immortality. It is at the last trump, when the dead are raised incorruptible, and immortal. None of the above makes sense if the soul is immortal.

Heb 10:38-39 38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. 39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

The soul needs saving, it is not immortal.

James 5:19-20 19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; 20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

The soul needs to be saved from death, it is not immortal.

Rev 16: 3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

Souls can die. The souls of humans and animals can die. This is because a soul is a living being, not some form of disembodied spirit or ghost. Souls could not die if they were immortal.






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Re: Refuting the doctrine of soul sleep
« Reply #4 on: December 25, 2011, 03:37:29 AM »



ObeyTheGospel

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Re: Refuting the doctrine of soul sleep
« Reply #5 on: December 25, 2011, 04:35:19 AM »
We are often told that Hades is simply the grave, a state of total unconsciousness. We are also told that the rich man and Lazarus is just a parable and was never a real event. I admit that I'm not sure about this. Maybe it was a real event or maybe it wasn't. However, even if it wasn't a real event I believe that Jesus was using this to give us an insight of the afterlife. Let me explain why:

If Hades is simply a state of unconsciousness, why did Jesus relate this to a place of torment? He could have related this parable to something else other than Hades, but instead He related Hades to a place of torment for the wicked and a place of comfort for the righteous. It seems clear that Jesus did not believe Hades was just a state of unconsciousness. It says very clearly, the rich man was in Hades. So what if it wasn't a real event? Why would Jesus relate a place of torment to Hades if Hades was just a place where everyone slept?

Amo

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Re: Refuting the doctrine of soul sleep
« Reply #6 on: December 25, 2011, 04:56:38 AM »
Quote
We are often told that Hades is simply the grave, a state of total unconsciousness. We are also told that the rich man and Lazarus is just a parable and was never a real event. I admit that I'm not sure about this. Maybe it was a real event or maybe it wasn't. However, even if it wasn't a real event I believe that Jesus was using this to give us an insight of the afterlife. Let me explain why:

If Hades is simply a state of unconsciousness, why did Jesus relate this to a place of torment? He could have related this parable to something else other than Hades, but instead He related Hades to a place of torment for the wicked and a place of comfort for the righteous. It seems clear that Jesus did not believe Hades was just a state of unconsciousness. It says very clearly, the rich man was in Hades. So what if it wasn't a real event? Why would Jesus relate a place of torment to Hades if Hades was just a place where everyone slept?


There absolutely is an afterlife.  It is the when and where of this life, that is debated.  The dead are referred to as sleeping all through the scriptures.  It certainly seems to be a bad choice of word to describe a state of being either in the extreme ecstasy of heaven, or the extreme agony of eternal torment.  Nor does the latter seem to rightly represent the character of God portrayed in the rest of scripture.

Luke 8:52 And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, butsleepeth.
53 And they laughed him to scorn, knowing that she was dead.
54 And he put them all out, and took her by the hand, and called, saying, Maid, arise.
55 And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat.

John 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

Matt 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Christ referred to the dead as sleeping, just as those of the old testament did.

1Thes 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Paul refers to the dead as sleeping also.  Saying they will arise from their sleep when the Lord returns.  Why would any of the Apostles refer to the dead in Christ as asleep, if in fact they are worshipping and praising God, and hearing and answering the prayers of those on earth.

1 Cor 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Again, Paul is referring to the dead as sleeping, and being raised from that sleep at the Lord’s return.  This is when death is swallowed up in victory, and those who are sleeping the sleep of death are awakened to the same.

Acts 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

Those who died after the establishment of the new covenant are still referred by the bible as falling asleep.  

Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

If all the dead were taken to heaven with Christ, then why is David said to be still in his grave, and not yet ascended to heaven by Peter.

1 Cor 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

Here is Paul again, referring to the dead as sleeping.  Nothing has changed regarding the term used to describe the state of those who have died from the old testament to the new, including Christ’s own testimony regarding the same.  References in the bible to saints in heaven being conscious and active are either referring to the future saints when we will all be their, or the saints that we know from scripture are already their.  The latter though is the exception to the rule, not the rule concerning the state of the dead.  Christ Himself tells us when we will be going to heaven with Him.

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

John 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: [/u]and I will raise him up at the last day.[/u]
41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


Matt 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

Even so, come Lord Jesus.  






















Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: Refuting the doctrine of soul sleep
« Reply #7 on: December 25, 2011, 07:04:00 AM »
Don't forget

dan 12:2 and many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everylasting life and some to shame and everlasting contempt


larry2

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Re: Refuting the doctrine of soul sleep
« Reply #8 on: December 25, 2011, 07:58:38 AM »



Don't forget

Dan 12:2 and many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everylasting life and some to shame and everlasting contempt.



Daniel 12:2. "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." Now the thing about these two resurrections is that they are separated by the little word "And," and that signifies a period of one thousand years because the resurrection of the righteous dead happens one thousand years ahead of the resurrection of the unrighteous dead and we'll see this in Revelation Chapter Twenty-one. The unrighteous wicked dead will not be raised up until after the millennium no matter when they died at which time they will appear before the great white throne judgment.
Gene Hawkins

I might ask if you think that Enoch, Elijah, and Moses are unaware of their surroundings, as being in the dust of the earth? What of those in paradise, and those that rose from their graves at the resurrection of Jesus. Were those in Abraham's bosom asleep, or just their bodies?
« Last Edit: December 25, 2011, 09:39:53 AM by larry2 »

Amo

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Re: Refuting the doctrine of soul sleep
« Reply #9 on: December 25, 2011, 09:29:08 AM »
Quote from: larry2

I might ask if you think that Enoch, Elijah, and Moses are unaware of their surroundings, as being in the dust of the earth? What of those in paradise, and those that rose from their graves at the resurrection of Jesus. Were those in Abraham's bosom asleep, or just their bodies?

                                                       EXCEPTIONS

Matt 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.


Although the scriptures clearly teach that the dead are in a state of sleep until Christ returns and resurrects them, as the above verses indicate, this is not the case for all those in Christ. When our Lord Jesus Christ died on the cross," many bodies of the saints which slept arose". For a while, these resurrected saints witnessed for Christ in Jerusalem. These saints are no doubt in heaven now, some of them may even be among the twenty four elders mentioned in the book of Revelation. There are others that we know are also in heaven now. Observe the following scriptures.

Gen 5:23-24 23 And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:
24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

Heb 11:5 5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.


Enoch is one of the only two people, according to the scriptures, that did not see death. Elijah is the other one. these two people will not experience the resurrection, for they never died. The only other people that will have this experience, are those who are alive, and saved, when the Lord Jesus Christ returns a second time to receive his own. Here are some verses in relation to Elijah's experience.

II Ki 2:9-12  9 And it came to pass, when they were gone over, that Elijah said unto Elisha, Ask what I shall do for thee, before I be taken away from thee. And Elisha said, I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me.
10 And he said, Thou hast asked a hard thing: nevertheless, if thou see me when I am taken from thee, it shall be so unto thee; but if not, it shall not be so.
11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
12 And Elisha saw it, and he cried, My father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the horsemen thereof. And he saw him no more: and he took hold of his own clothes, and rent them in two pieces.


Enoch and Elijah both went to heaven without seeing death. There is one other person who also is in heaven, but was resurrected after dying. We know from Matt 7: 1-3 that Moses and Elijah appeared to Christ and certain of his disciples from heaven. The book of Jude tells us that Michael the archangel whom many believe to be the pre incarnate Christ, came for the body of Moses, an obvious reference to his resurrection. Notice the following verses.

Jude 1:9 9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2011, 09:40:31 AM by larry2 »

larry2

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Re: Refuting the doctrine of soul sleep
« Reply #10 on: December 25, 2011, 09:46:05 AM »

Good post in my opinion AMO, though I would suggest that the conscience state of the soul; not the body remains intact after death. We read of that in the souls under the altar in Revelation 6:9-10.  And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10  And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Amo

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Re: Refuting the doctrine of soul sleep
« Reply #11 on: December 25, 2011, 09:55:08 AM »
Quote
Good post in my opinion AMO, though I would suggest that the conscience state of the soul; not the body remains intact after death. We read of that in the souls under the altar in Revelation 6:9-10.  And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10  And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

I understand there are some verses which seem very suggestive of consciousness in death.  On the other hand, the scriptures also say -

9 And the Lord said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper? 10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground. Gen 4:9-10 (KJV)

Yet we understand that the blood itself did not literally cry to God from the ground.  Nor do I believe all the souls of those slain for the word of God are under some alter in heaven, crying out to God for vengeance upon their slayers.

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: Refuting the doctrine of soul sleep
« Reply #12 on: December 25, 2011, 10:59:55 AM »



Don't forget

Dan 12:2 and many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everylasting life and some to shame and everlasting contempt.



Daniel 12:2. "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." Now the thing about these two resurrections is that they are separated by the little word "And," and that signifies a period of one thousand years because the resurrection of the righteous dead happens one thousand years ahead of the resurrection of the unrighteous dead and we'll see this in Revelation Chapter Twenty-one. The unrighteous wicked dead will not be raised up until after the millennium no matter when they died at which time they will appear before the great white throne judgment.

we KNOW that at the rapture (rev1:7) that all eyes will see HIM, EVEN those who pierced him which are dead..... So now back to the word AND that you say equals a thousand years, will not all those who are dead KNOW that they are awaken in shame when they do not meet the lord in the air..... You take the word "and" and turn it into a thousand years....

larry2

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Re: Refuting the doctrine of soul sleep
« Reply #13 on: December 25, 2011, 11:18:39 AM »



Don't forget

Dan 12:2 and many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everylasting life and some to shame and everlasting contempt.




Daniel 12:2. "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." Now the thing about these two resurrections is that they are separated by the little word "And," and that signifies a period of one thousand years because the resurrection of the righteous dead happens one thousand years ahead of the resurrection of the unrighteous dead and we'll see this in Revelation Chapter Twenty-one. The unrighteous wicked dead will not be raised up until after the millennium no matter when they died at which time they will appear before the great white throne judgment.



Will not all those who are dead KNOW that they are awaken in shame when they do not meet the lord in the air..... You take the word "and" and turn it into a thousand years....


Well I know that there is a resurrection of the righteous, and one of the dead. I know the dead will be judged out of the things written in the books, whereas we in Christ will receive our reward, and a well done. We are being judged according to our walk right now. Do you believe the two events to occur at the same time? Where is the one that is taken from the field, when the other is left to enter the millennium if you accept that word?

ObeyTheGospel

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Re: Refuting the doctrine of soul sleep
« Reply #14 on: December 25, 2011, 12:04:59 PM »
I'll just keep posting this until people pay attention to the points that I make:

If Hades is simply a state of unconsciousness, why did Jesus relate this to a place of torment? He could have related this parable to something else other than Hades, but instead He related Hades to a place of torment for the wicked and a place of comfort for the righteous. It seems clear that Jesus did not believe Hades was just a state of unconsciousness. It says very clearly, the rich man was in Hades. So what if it wasn't a real event? Why would Jesus relate a place of torment to Hades if Hades was just a place where everyone slept?