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Author Topic: Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism  (Read 15571 times)

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Amo

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Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism
« on: Sat Feb 11, 2012 - 10:39:55 »
The following internet site contains a book concerning the very numerous Sunday laws throughout history.

http://www.archive.org/stream/sundaylegislat00lewi#page/n3/mode/2up

In light of the fact, that Sunday keepers have repeatedly throughout history appealed to the civil authorities to enforce their day of worship upon all, how is it that those who keep the fourth commandment by faith in the word of God, are the ones always accused of being legalistic?

We appeal to all to obey all the commandments of God by faith in His holy word, which admonishes us to do so from one end of the bible to the other.  We appeal to personal conviction and reason alone for this act of faith, and never to civil legislation which Sunday keepers habitually appeal to, and yet we are the ones accused of legalism.  This makes no sense at all.  How can appealing to others to believe and obey the word of God by faith in that word be considered legalism, while appealing to others to keep a day holy which the scriptures never even address as such, and then making laws to force everyone to do so, be considered faith?

While it is certainly possible to keep the seventh day Sabbath for the wrong reason, i.e. legalistically, it is just as certainly possible to keep the commandment by faith in the word of God, and out of love for the author of the same.  The same can not be said though about Sunday observance.  There is no command concerning it in the word of God, nor is it even addressed at all as a day of worship in the same.  Thus it is impossible to keep it by faith in the word of God, or out of love and respect for the authority of His word.  The writer contends that this is exactly why Sunday keepers have appealed to civil legislation to enforce their day upon all throughout history.  That is, because there is no command or authority from God and His scriptures to do so.  Thus the establishment of Sunday as a sacred day by civil law is in fact verily the establishment of legalism.

Yet it is those of us who keep the seventh day by faith alone in the word of God, that are continually accused of being the legalistic.  How unfortunate that child or reverse psychology is so successful among professing adults.

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:17 (KJV)

If what you believe and preach is not to be found in the word of God, then it is not by faith.  If it is not by faith, then it is of works.  The latter alone is not acceptable to God.  The only works that are acceptable to God, are those performed by faith.  This is of course because they demonstrate ones willing submission to God, and therefore their faith and trust in His word, and trustworthy authority.

31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. Romans 3:31 (KJV)

True faith does not make void the law of God, but rather establishes the same.

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Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism
« on: Sat Feb 11, 2012 - 10:39:55 »

Offline Talking Donkey

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Re: Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism
« Reply #1 on: Sun Feb 12, 2012 - 12:11:27 »
Who is forcing you to keep Sunday?  No one.  It is all in your brainwashed mind.

Please use the Bible and the Bible only to prove doctrine.  What the devil said at one time, or what other liars have said as documented in history should not be used as proof of any doctrine.

Now, ... watch the self praise and the accusing of others ... here it comes .... watch !  watch !





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Re: Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism
« Reply #1 on: Sun Feb 12, 2012 - 12:11:27 »

Offline DaveW

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Re: Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism
« Reply #2 on: Mon Feb 13, 2012 - 05:37:27 »
Quote
In light of the fact, that Sunday keepers have repeatedly throughout history appealed to the civil authorities to enforce their day of worship upon all, how is it that those who keep the fourth commandment by faith in the word of God, are the ones always accused of being legalistic?
Oh there is plenty of legalism on all sides of the question.

The fact is that Saturday is more scripturally defensable than any other day, but scripture also says it is specifically for Israelites/Jews. (not gentiles)

For Israelites to force it on gentile  believers puts said Israelites in the place of the Judaizers of Acts 15.1. (not good)  For gentile believers to try to force a first day (Sunday) time scheme on Israelites is equally bad. It is the stuff of replacement theology.

Amo

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Re: Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism
« Reply #3 on: Mon Feb 13, 2012 - 18:18:58 »
Quote
Who is forcing you to keep Sunday?  No one.  It is all in your brainwashed mind.

Please use the Bible and the Bible only to prove doctrine.  What the devil said at one time, or what other liars have said as documented in history should not be used as proof of any doctrine.

Now, ... watch the self praise and the accusing of others ... here it comes .... watch !  watch !

I never said anything about anyone forcing me right now to keep Sunday.  That must just be in your brainwashed mind.

I only referred to the fact that all through history, Sunday keepers have passed laws trying to force everyone to observe their day.  Since you mentioned it though, there are certainly many blue laws in effect in many places today, which do not allow stores to open or certain activities to take place on Sundays until certain times, if at all on that day.  There are also countless blue laws on the books all over the place, which have never been removed and could be enforced at any time.

I cannot use the bible alone to address the issue of Sunday sacredness, because the issue is found nowhere at all in the entirety of the scriptures.  Therefore it's reasoning, observation, and enforcement must be discussed extra biblically. 

Perhaps you can explain to me why Sunday keepers have appealed to civil legislation so very many times throughout history, and still do today, and yet claim they are not legalistic.  While at the same time claiming that all who would keep the fourth commandment by faith in the word of God are legalistic for doing so. 

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Re: Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism
« Reply #3 on: Mon Feb 13, 2012 - 18:18:58 »

Amo

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Re: Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism
« Reply #4 on: Mon Feb 13, 2012 - 18:36:03 »
Quote
Oh there is plenty of legalism on all sides of the question.

The fact is that Saturday is more scripturally defensable than any other day, but scripture also says it is specifically for Israelites/Jews. (not gentiles)

For Israelites to force it on gentile  believers puts said Israelites in the place of the Judaizers of Acts 15.1. (not good)  For gentile believers to try to force a first day (Sunday) time scheme on Israelites is equally bad. It is the stuff of replacement theology.

The bible does not say anywhere that the Sabbath is specifically for the Jews.  It was instituted before there ever was a Jew.  It will be observed in heaven as well.  The bible admonishes all to keep the commandments of God from one end of the bible to the other.  There is not one gospel for the Jews, and another for the rest of the world.  Nor are any of the truly converted to be considered Gentiles any longer, but fellow citizens and saints, and of the very household of God.

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. Eph 2:19-22 (KJV)

You are the replacement theologian, separating that which God has joined together. 

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Re: Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism
« Reply #4 on: Mon Feb 13, 2012 - 18:36:03 »



Offline DaveW

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Re: Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism
« Reply #5 on: Tue Feb 14, 2012 - 05:30:25 »
The bible does not say anywhere that the Sabbath is specifically for the Jews. 
Ex 31.12 And the Lord said to Moses,
13 “You are to speak to the people of Israel and say, ‘Above all you shall keep my Sabbaths, for this is a sign between me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I, the Lord, sanctify you.
14 You shall keep the Sabbath, because it is holy for you. Everyone who profanes it shall be put to death. Whoever does any work on it, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
15 Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day shall be put to death.
16 Therefore the people of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, observing the Sabbath throughout their generations, as a covenant forever.
17 It is a sign forever between me and the people of Israel that in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed.’

Offline Michael G

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Re: Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism
« Reply #6 on: Tue Feb 14, 2012 - 11:53:04 »
The bible does not say anywhere that the Sabbath is specifically for the Jews.


People of Israel = Jews

not totally true

Children of Israel = Israels Children who was Jacob, Jew-dah came after..


Seed of JUDAH celebrated Jew
H3063 JUDAH celebrated
of the tribe descended from the first, and of its territory: - JUDAH.

H3064, Judaite or Jew
Patronymic from H3063; a Jehudite (that is, Judaite or Jew), or descendant of Jehudah (that is, JUDAH): - Jew.



The word "Jew" never appears in the Bible until 2nd kings, this was when the Two nations split into Judah southern  and Northern ten tribes under the name of Israel was uniting with Asyria.


2Ki_16:6  At that time Rezin king of Syria recovered Elath to "Syria", and drave the “JEWS
« Last Edit: Tue Feb 14, 2012 - 12:34:36 by Michael G »

Offline DaveW

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Re: Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism
« Reply #7 on: Tue Feb 14, 2012 - 12:05:59 »
Quote
The word "Jew" never appears in the Bible until 2nd kings, this was when the Two nations split into Judah southern  and Israel Northern tribe was uniting with Asyria.
I understand that but by NT times that had changed.  Paul identifies himself as a Jew (Acts 21.39)  and as a Benjaminite (Phil 3.5).

By the first century the term "Jew" meant ANY decendants of the 12 tribes.  That is how I use it.

Offline Michael G

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Re: Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism
« Reply #8 on: Tue Feb 14, 2012 - 12:28:13 »
Quote
The word "Jew" never appears in the Bible until 2nd kings, this was when the Two nations split into Judah southern  and Israel Northern tribe was uniting with Asyria.
I understand that but by NT times that had changed.  Paul identifies himself as a Jew (Acts 21.39)  and as a Benjaminite (Phil 3.5).

By the first century the term "Jew" meant ANY decendants of the 12 tribes.  That is how I use it.


I understand that but by NT times that had changed.  Paul identifies himself as a Jew (Acts 21.39)  and as a Benjaminite (Phil 3.5). By the first century the term "Jew" meant ANY descendants of the 12 tribes.  That is how I use it.
[/quote]



No not totally true,

It was the BENJAMITES that followed the Southern kingdom JUDAH, the BENJAMITES were ADOPTED into the Family of the southern tribe Judah because they chose as nation to followed the Southern kingdom of Judah.. That’s why Paul is able to call himself a Jew, he was a Benjamite. 

Same principles in the bible of many, a couple examples are concerning Ruth the Moabites she followed Naomi to Judah and married Boaz, she was adopted into being part of Judah, and another example is Lot, Lot was counted as a Child of Abraham, same law of adoption, the child Lot chose to followed Abraham out of Babylon and became his follower,  a Son by adoption.

And now let’s look at NT history,

the Samaritan woman at the well who was remnant of the ten tribes of Israel called herself a Child of Jacob, because she was from the 10 tribes of the northern kingdom of ISRAEL who followed Assyria.. They intermarried and had Many husbands from outside their race.. You will also notice she said that Jews from Judah did not associate with her tribes because they had chose not to follow the Kingdom of Judah..

The Jews never accepted the Samaritans even though they gave testimony they were Israel’s children.. the woman at the well said this well was given to us by our father Jacob, and Jesus did not disagree with her, but affirmed their apostasy of intermarrying with many husbands and that’s NT history and that’s history today.. All the children that were in Judah were scattered throughout the earth when Jerusalem was destroyed in 70AD , and they intermarried, so essentially they are in the same boat as the Samaritan woman, all have sinned in apostasy and fall short of the Kingdom of God unless they repent and be reborn again.. 

BTW when you say, "By the first century the term "Jew" meant ANY descendants of the 12 tribes.  That is how I use it."

That’s what people may say but that's not biblical, and that’s were false teaching comes from..


« Last Edit: Tue Feb 14, 2012 - 13:37:57 by Michael G »

Offline DaveW

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Re: Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism
« Reply #9 on: Tue Feb 14, 2012 - 13:47:46 »
BTW, after the Assyrian exile that deleted the Northern Kingdom, a smattering of escappees from all the other tribes came back to Judah.  That is why they ended up being called Jews.

Those who have claimed decendancy from the other tribes are now called Jews.  (like the benei Ephraim in India) and there are 2 tribes in Ethiopia that were the decendants of converts at the time when the Queen of Sheba visited Solomon. (the Ethiopian eunuch of Acts 8 was of from there) are also called Jews. Records indicate that Ethiopians came to the pilgrim feasts during the 2nd temple period. To get in, they HAD to be considered Jews.

Whether you think it is biblical or not, it was the first century custom and the NT says nothing to change it.

Offline DaveW

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Re: Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism
« Reply #10 on: Tue Feb 14, 2012 - 13:50:17 »
BTW, the samaritans were a totally different story. And your statements about the woman in Jn 4 show you know little of their society.

Offline Michael G

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Re: Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism
« Reply #11 on: Tue Feb 14, 2012 - 15:25:47 »
BTW, after the Assyrian exile that deleted the Northern Kingdom, a smattering of escappees from all the other tribes came back to Judah.  That is why they ended up being called Jews.

Those who have claimed decendancy from the other tribes are now called Jews.  (like the benei Ephraim in India) and there are 2 tribes in Ethiopia that were the decendants of converts at the time when the Queen of Sheba visited Solomon. (the Ethiopian eunuch of Acts 8 was of from there) are also called Jews. Records indicate that Ethiopians came to the pilgrim feasts during the 2nd temple period. To get in, they HAD to be considered Jews.

Whether you think it is biblical or not, it was the first century custom and the NT says nothing to change it.


Most of these were no doubt from the Kingdom of Southern Judah after Jerusalem was destroyed in 6th century BC,  they were scattered throughout the world in 600 BC,  no doubt the kingdom of Judah kept a record of the linage of the kingdom of Judah, for the promised seed who was Christ was to come out of the tribe of Judah and that’s why Luke and Mathew posted it in their Gospel to prove the prophecy that the SEED singular, Jesus Christ would arise out of Judah from Adam  .. the same prophecy given to Adam the only Son of God in the flesh who aslo fell,  

other than pointing to Jesus as the saviour, there is no reason for any record of an individual be traced back to their linage, no one is saved by their linage , Christ is the Saviour not Jews,

Jesus said to Peter  thou shalt call no man unclean, and  the Jews and Gentiles  were to join in a Common goal of preaching the Gospel together to the world,  the linage of Christ had no other purpose then to prove that Gods will, will be done on earth as it is heaven, the prophecy of the savoir would arrive in his first coming to the earth in his Son.



Sad that some still cling to some hope in belonging to Linage other than Christ’s seed,

This does not mean that God has excluded anyone from the promise, the Bible is not about Jew or Gentile it’s all about Jesus Christ and the salvation of all souls from the beginning to end,

This is what the Jewish leaders in Christ time did not understand in the pattern of the “SANCTUARY
« Last Edit: Tue Feb 14, 2012 - 19:08:50 by Michael G »

Amo

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Re: Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism
« Reply #12 on: Tue Feb 14, 2012 - 18:50:32 »
1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. Gen 2:1-3 (KJV)

How could the Sabbath be only for Jews, when it was instituted 2000 years before there ever was a Jew?

1 Thus saith the Lord, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed. 2 Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil. 3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the Lord, speak, saying, The Lord hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree. 4 For thus saith the Lord unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant; 5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off. 6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the Lord, to serve him, and to love the name of the Lord, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; 7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people. 8 The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him. Isaiah 56:1-8 (KJV)

Sorry, scripture just does not support your theory that the Sabbath was and is just for the Jews.

22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord. Isaiah 66:22-23 (KJV)

Apparently we will be keeping it in heaven also.  All flesh will worship the Lord on His Sabbath in heaven.

27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: 28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath. Mark 2:26-28 (KJV)

Straight from the mouth of Christ, the Sabbath was made for man, not just the Jews. 

Usage Notes:
 
English Words used in KJV:
man 552
not tr 4
miscellaneous translations 3
[Total Count: 559]
 
from <G435> (aner) and ops (the countenance; from <G3700> (optanomai)); man-faced, i.e. a human being :- certain, man.
—Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary







Offline DaveW

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Re: Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism
« Reply #13 on: Wed Feb 15, 2012 - 06:15:49 »
Quote
other than pointing to Jesus as the saviour, there is no reason for any record of an individual be traced back to their linage, no one is saved by their linage , Christ is the Saviour not Jews,
I have NEVER said anyone was saved by being Jewish. NEVER.  You are arguing against me on a point I do not believe at all.

I do not understand why I cannot get that point thru to you.

What I have said is that being Jewish entails certain covenantal responsibilities that can ONLY be fulfilled by being a New Covenant believer in Yeshua/Jesus.  Gentile believers can do them too but they are not required of Gentile believers.  And all Gentile believers have a HUGE covenantal responsibility that the Jews do not: drive the 'natural branches' i.e. the unbelieving Jews, to jealousy in our relationship with the God of Israel.

There is SO MUCH MORE for believers than just getting saved. It only takes a few minutes or hours to get saved.  It takes a lifetime to walk it out.  I am talking about stuff AFTER salvation. You keep dragging it back to the starting line.

Offline Michael G

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Re: Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism
« Reply #14 on: Wed Feb 15, 2012 - 12:20:22 »
Quote
other than pointing to Jesus as the saviour, there is no reason for any record of an individual be traced back to their linage, no one is saved by their linage , Christ is the Saviour not Jews,
I have NEVER said anyone was saved by being Jewish. NEVER.  You are arguing against me on a point I do not believe at all.

I do not understand why I cannot get that point thru to you.

What I have said is that being Jewish entails certain covenantal responsibilities that can ONLY be fulfilled by being a New Covenant believer in Yeshua/Jesus.  Gentile believers can do them too but they are not required of Gentile believers.  And all Gentile believers have a HUGE covenantal responsibility that the Jews do not: drive the 'natural branches' i.e. the unbelieving Jews, to jealousy in our relationship with the God of Israel.

There is SO MUCH MORE for believers than just getting saved. It only takes a few minutes or hours to get saved.  It takes a lifetime to walk it out.  I am talking about stuff AFTER salvation. You keep dragging it back to the starting line.

Look Dave you posted in another topic quoting Romans 11 : 26, that all literal  Jews will be saved,  and I have explained to you that the verse implies to spiritual Israel, meaning People who have prevailed, overcome with God, this includes Jew and Gentile alike. All of Paul’s writings support this, he concludes according to God’s judgment there is no respecter of person, all believers in Christ, Jews and Gentiles are one body one bread, one church in preaching the Gospel.

Because you are taught as a Masonic Jew movement, that the Jews are someway special today because of Gods promise to their fathers. Well I hate to burst your bubble, the bible concludes we are all Adams Children under the same condemnation of sin, and the Good news says we are all saved by the same promise that was given to Adam no difference, that being saved by the seed singular, that seed being Jesus Christ, no difference..

The bible teaches very clearly that Jews did get the first opportunity to preach the good news about Christ, the Jewish nation was given the Oracles of God and they were the perfect teachers because of their preceding knowledge of God’s promise in the OT bible and Knowledge of the sanctuary services that pointed to Jesus Christ.  One thing they needed however was to believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God and receive the Holy Spirit to open their understanding of the scriptures to accomplish the Goal.

Jesus Christ already fulfilled his promise to the Jewish nation in his first coming and taught them personally in the synagogue about the fulfillments of the prophecies and then he completed the promise by sending the Holy Spirit at Pentecost as the seal of his promise.  The promise to the Jewish Nation would be to empower them to go out preach the Gospel to the world, they were to share in God’s work in his plan, they were to hand the bread out to the multitude of Hearers,  to their own people first and then the Gentile, that was the commission given by Jesus Christ. Once this is accomplished then the end would come. But the Nation kept the bread for themselves and did not share it with the world.

When Jesus was here on earth, the Jewish Nation leaders rejected the commission, Jesus already prophesied that they would reject it,  and knowing this pointed it out by the conclusion of the temple and Jerusalem being destroyed in 70 AD. meaning the fulfillment of their Apostasy had come to end..

 Jesus however had another plan already set up for his church with Jewish Apostles as the Foundation and him being the Chief corner stone, and they did receive the Promise of the Holy Spirit and they all  were given gifts to accomplish  the preaching of the Gospel to the world  with boldness Paul being a Good example of a Jew being reborn of God, all being executed for doing so.

Since 34 AD the Gospel was given to the Gentiles, the Gentiles preach it, many people since have died in Christ both Jew and Gentile and they will all be saved based on their Belief in Jesus Christ, No difference today in any believer.

The only special rewards will be great honor and gratitude in their hearts and minds for eternity of what God did for them and the end result was many people saved because of their good works for God..

Just because one is chosen and they do not accept the commission does not give them any special reward or favor in the end..  Matter of fact quite the opposite..
« Last Edit: Wed Feb 15, 2012 - 13:21:35 by Michael G »

Offline DaveW

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Re: Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism
« Reply #15 on: Thu Feb 16, 2012 - 06:21:49 »
Quote
Look Dave you posted in another topic quoting Romans 11 : 26, that all literal  Jews will be saved,  and I have explained to you that the verse implies to spiritual Israel, meaning People who have prevailed, overcome with God, this includes Jew and Gentile alike. All of Paul’s writings support this, he concludes according to God’s judgment there is no respecter of person, all believers in Christ, Jews and Gentiles are one body one bread, one church in preaching the Gospel.
Yes, I do believe that all physical and converted Jews will AT SOME POINT IN THE FUTURE will come to repentance and accept the Lord Yeshua/Jesus.  That is both prophetic and miraculous. It is analogous to the Exodus when all Jews (and a mixed multitude of other slaves) were expelled from Egypt. I see no record that any Jews were left there. Did they continue on in faith? Clearly not.  Korah had his rebellion in the Levites.  The spies brought back an evil but accurate report on giants in the Promised Land and caused the deaths in the desert of everyone (except 2) over 20 years old.

But at the point of leaving Goshen crossing the Red Sea, ALL were saved.

Do you not believe God is big enough to do that again?

Offline Michael G

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Re: Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism
« Reply #16 on: Thu Feb 16, 2012 - 11:03:12 »
Quote
Look Dave you posted in another topic quoting Romans 11 : 26, that all literal  Jews will be saved,  and I have explained to you that the verse implies to spiritual Israel, meaning People who have prevailed, overcome with God, this includes Jew and Gentile alike. All of Paul’s writings support this, he concludes according to God’s judgment there is no respecter of person, all believers in Christ, Jews and Gentiles are one body one bread, one church in preaching the Gospel.
Yes, I do believe that all physical and converted Jews will AT SOME POINT IN THE FUTURE will come to repentance and accept the Lord Yeshua/Jesus.  That is both prophetic and miraculous. It is analogous to the Exodus when all Jews (and a mixed multitude of other slaves) were expelled from Egypt. I see no record that any Jews were left there. Did they continue on in faith? Clearly not.  Korah had his rebellion in the Levites.  The spies brought back an evil but accurate report on giants in the Promised Land and caused the deaths in the desert of everyone (except 2) over 20 years old.

But at the point of leaving Goshen crossing the Red Sea, ALL were saved.

Do you not believe God is big enough to do that again?

Brother your leaving out important scripture about literal Israel nation of people who did not follow the congregation of Korah who  will also  perish in their own sins..

Num 16:30   then ye shall understand that these men have PROVOKED the LORD.
Num 16:31  And it CAME TO PASS, as he had made an end of speaking all these words, that the ground clave asunder that was under them:
Num 16:32  And the EARTH OPENED her mouth, and SWALLOWED THEM UP, and their houses, and all the men that appertained unto Korah, and all their goods.
Num 16:33  They, and all that appertained to them, WENT DOWN ALIVE INTO THE PIT, and the EARTH CLOSED UPON THEM: and THEY PERISHED from AMONG the CONGREGATION

Num_27:3  Our father DIED in the WILDERNESS, and HE WAS NOT in the COMPANY of them that GATHERED THEMSELVES together against the LORD in the COMPANY OF KORAH; but DIED in HIS “OWN

Offline Hobie

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Re: Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism
« Reply #17 on: Sat Sep 08, 2012 - 05:36:46 »
Who is forcing you to keep Sunday?  No one.  It is all in your brainwashed mind.

Please use the Bible and the Bible only to prove doctrine.  What the devil said at one time, or what other liars have said as documented in history should not be used as proof of any doctrine.

Now, ... watch the self praise and the accusing of others ... here it comes .... watch !  watch !





Physician heal thyself, you never seem to use scripture if I may point out.

Offline TN.Frank

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Re: Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism
« Reply #18 on: Tue Oct 30, 2012 - 00:43:35 »
Here in the South many of the "Blue Laws" which regulated the selling of alcohol, opening of a business and other activities were centered around Sunday but never the Sabbath.
Most places of employment will be open from Monday thru Saturday but are closed on Sunday, why?
My brother is a Baptist and he's as "legalistic" about Sunday as many Sunday Keepers say Sabbath keepers are suppose to be about the Sabbath.
You can be Legalistic about any day, not just the Sabbath. Most Christians are Legalistic about Easter and Christmas, both Pagan Holidays(not God's Holy Days) and many Christians are Legalistic about alcohol even though prohibition is No Where mentioned in the Bible, heck, Paul even told Timothy to drink some wine for his stomach's sake.  It's commonly know that wine can help aid in digestion and I'm talking WINE and Not Grape Juice. Even Jesus Christ Himself made some very good alcoholic wine for His very first miracle at the Wedding Supper. Why would he make something that would be a sin for Christians to drink? The truth is that it actually is ok to drink alcohol in moderation as long as one doesn't become drunk.
Legalism can and will kill a Church Fellowship but we also need to see that it takes many different forums, not just the so called Legalism of Sabbath Keeping, which I really don't feel is legalistic at all, it's just God's Holy Day and we should worship him on it.

Offline DaveW

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Re: Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism
« Reply #19 on: Tue Oct 30, 2012 - 14:40:33 »
The bible does not say anywhere that the Sabbath is specifically for the Jews.

Exo 31:16  Therefore the children of Israel [i.e. the Jews] shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
Exo 31:17  It is a sign between me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.'"

Offline Talking Donkey

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Re: Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism
« Reply #20 on: Tue Oct 30, 2012 - 15:17:12 »
Do you pray before you eat?  This is a yes or no question.  YES... or .... NO?

Offline Talking Donkey

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Re: Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism
« Reply #21 on: Tue Oct 30, 2012 - 15:32:00 »
This guy is so predictable!  I said watch the accusing, and it was so.  So predictable !!!


I wrote something on February and it took you 7 months to answer it...


SDAs are taken on the oldest kind of satanic bait... self righteousness.


Let me explain it at the kindergarten level...  according to the 4th commandment...


1. We must work 6 days, not 5.
2. We must not work on the 7th day.  ANY kind of WORK is strictly forbidden on the 7th day.  There is not one single kind of WORK allowed on this day.
3. 33/42 times the word "Sabbath" appears in the gospels is to show Jesus WORKING on the 7th day.
4. When confronted about why he was not resting, but WORKING on the day that WORK was forbidden, Jesus answered that both his Father and him WORK on the 7th day.
5. The Holy Spirit, the narrator of the gospels stated (and he cant lie) that Jesus broke the Sabbath (John 5:16-18)
6. That is why all 9 commandments are quoted in the NT DIRECTLY except the 4th, because we cant have Jesus BREAKING the 4th commandment and  at the same time have a verse in the NT stating:"woe to the Sabbath breakers, for they shall not inherit the kingdom of God".
7. The 4th commandment is clear, it starts with "REMEMBER"!!!! and it is clear, God FORGOT ABOUT IT!


TIMES IN THE NEW TESTAMENT THAT EACH ONE OF THE TEN COMMANDMENTS ARE REITERATED THROUGH DIRECT EXHORTATION OR DIRECT WARNING FOR THE BELIEVER…

Commandment # 1:  Thou shalt have no other gods before me.  Mark 12:29,32; Rom 3:30;  1The 1:9; 1Cor 8:4,6;  Gal 3:20;  Eph 4:6;  1Tim 2:5; James 2:19.   Love the Lord your God (Mat 22:39;  Mark 12:30;  Luke 10:27;  2Ti 3:4; Luke 11:42).

Commandment # 2:   Stay away from idols.  Acts 15:20,29;  Eph 5:5;  1Cor 5:11;  1Th 1:9;  Acts 17:16;  Acts 21:25;  1Cor 6:9;  1Pe 4:3-4;  1Cor 10:7,14;  1John 5:21;  Rev 2:14,20;  Rev 9:20;  Rev 21:8;  Rev 22:15.

Commandment # 3:  Do not take the name of the Lord in vain.  Rom 2:24; 1Tim 6:1;  Rev 16:9;  Rev 13:6; Mat 12:31;  Rev 16:9; James 2:7.

Commandment # 4:  NOT ONE VERSE IN THE NEW TESTAMENT

Commadment # 5:  Honor your father and mother.  Rom 1:30;  2Tim 3:2;  Mat 19:19;  Luke 18:20;  Mat 15:4;  Mark 10:19;  Eph 6:2;  Mark 7:10.

Commandment # 6:  Do not kill.  Mark 10:19;  Mat 19:18;  Luke 18:20;  Rom 13:9;  Rom 1:29;  Gal 5:21;  1Tim 1:9;  1Pe 4:15;  1John 3:15;  Rev 9:21;  Rev 21:8;  Rev 22:15.

Commadment # 7:  Do not comit adultery.  Mar 10:19;  Mat 19:18;  Luke 16:18;  Luke 18:20;  Heb 13:4;  Mat 5:27;  Gal 5:19;  Mat 15:19-20;  Mark 7:121;  Mark 10:11-12;  Rom 13:9;  1Cor 6:9.

Commandment # 8:  Do not steal.  Mat 19:18;  Mark 10:19;  Luke 18:20;  1Cor 6:9;  Rom 13:9;  Rom 2:21;  1Cor 6:9-10;  Eph 4:28;  1Pe 4:15.

Commandment # 9.  Do not lie.  Mat 19:18;  Mark 10:19;  Luke 18:20;  Rom 13:9;  John 8:44; Acts 5:3;  Col 3:9;  Rev 21:27;  Rev 22:15.

Commandment # 10.  Do not covet.  Eph 5:3,5;  Mark 7:22-23;  2Pe 2:14;  1Cor 6:9;  Rom 13:9;  luke 12:15;  1Cor 5:11;  1Tim 6:10;  1Tim 3:2;  Rom 1:29;  Rom 7:7;  Col 3:5-6.

Commandment # 4 is the exception to this rule.  God indeed FORGOT about it.

And Mat 12:1-6 clearly shows why Jesus did not commit sin when he broke the Sabbath rest by working on that day.

Offline DaveW

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Re: Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism
« Reply #22 on: Tue Oct 30, 2012 - 15:48:49 »
Do you pray before you eat?  This is a yes or no question.  YES... or .... NO?

If you are addressing me with this (and I have no clue what this has to do with the topic) I di not understand why.  But the answer you seek is NO.  I say  a bracha [blessing] before eating and pray AFTER the meal as commanded in scripture:

"When you have eaten and are satisfied, you shall bless the LORD your God."(Deuteronomy 8:10a)

It puts the eating FIRST.

Since you have broached the subject, do you have any verse commanding a prayer BEFORE the meal?  (and not just a bracha?)
« Last Edit: Tue Oct 30, 2012 - 15:57:51 by DaveW »

Offline DaveW

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Re: Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism
« Reply #23 on: Tue Oct 30, 2012 - 15:52:26 »
Quote
I wrote something on February and it took you 7 months to answer it...
Really?  Did you not notice I also answered you in the very next post?

But as that point keeps getting ignored, I post again. When you argue against it, you are arguing against scripture.

ETA:
In case you missed it:

The Saturday Sabbath is still in effect.  FOR JEWS.

If you are a christian of gentile stock, you do not need to follow it.  PERIOD.
« Last Edit: Tue Oct 30, 2012 - 16:01:56 by DaveW »

Offline Talking Donkey

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Re: Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism
« Reply #24 on: Tue Oct 30, 2012 - 18:39:30 »
Quote
I wrote something on February and it took you 7 months to answer it...
Really?  Did you not notice I also answered you in the very next post?

But as that point keeps getting ignored, I post again. When you argue against it, you are arguing against scripture.

ETA:
In case you missed it:

The Saturday Sabbath is still in effect.  FOR JEWS.

If you are a christian of gentile stock, you do not need to follow it.  PERIOD.


The Saturday Sabbath is still in effect for Jews?  Yes, if they are still Jews (not Christians).




Offline Talking Donkey

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Re: Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism
« Reply #25 on: Tue Oct 30, 2012 - 18:41:49 »
<<I say  a bracha [blessing] before eating and pray AFTER the meal as commanded in scripture:>>

Jesus did neither.

Mark 14:18 And as they sat and did eat, Jesus said, Verily I say unto you, One of you which eateth with me shall betray me.
19 And they began to be sorrowful, and to say unto him one by one, Is it I? and another said, Is it I?
20 And he answered and said unto them, It is one of the twelve, that dippeth with me in the dish.
21 The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.
22 And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it, and gave to them, and said, Take, eat: this is my body.
23 And he took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them: and they all drank of it.
24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.
25 Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God.
26 And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives.

Peace

Offline TN.Frank

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Re: Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism
« Reply #26 on: Tue Oct 30, 2012 - 19:08:51 »
I don't see why so many folks get so bent out of shape over the Sabbath. It's not a burden or something hard to do. It's the Day that God rested from the work of Creation, it's also the day that we rest to Honor God for his Creative Work and to take a break from our work and worry to think on God and Family.
Some of ya'll make it seem like it's an imposition on you to rest and give God one day a week yet these very same people think nothing of taking Sunday off.
Just do the same thing you do on Sunday but on Saturday the Sabbath, it's just that simple.

Offline Lively Stone

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Re: Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism
« Reply #27 on: Tue Oct 30, 2012 - 19:46:03 »
I don't see why so many folks get so bent out of shape over the Sabbath. It's not a burden or something hard to do. It's the Day that God rested from the work of Creation, it's also the day that we rest to Honor God for his Creative Work and to take a break from our work and worry to think on God and Family.
Some of ya'll make it seem like it's an imposition on you to rest and give God one day a week yet these very same people think nothing of taking Sunday off.
Just do the same thing you do on Sunday but on Saturday the Sabbath, it's just that simple.

We do need to rest and give God his due honour, but we are free to choose to do that on a Wednesday, if we desire or if that is all we have. God doesn't carry a big stick about it.

Offline TN.Frank

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Re: Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism
« Reply #28 on: Tue Oct 30, 2012 - 23:28:07 »
We do need to rest and give God his due honour, but we are free to choose to do that on a Wednesday, if we desire or if that is all we have. God doesn't carry a big stick about it.
So why would God, on the first week of Creation, have went to all the trouble to Sanctify and make Holy the 7th Day if any ol' day would do? 
It's clear to me that the Word of God says the Sabbath is God's Holy Day, not any other day.
It's also "funny"(as I stated earlier) that it's always Sunday Keepers that are pointing their fingers at Sabbath Keepers saying that they(the Sabbath Keepers) are "Legalistic" but as I also pointed out there's a lot of Sunday Keepers that are just as Legalistic.

Offline Lively Stone

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Re: Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism
« Reply #29 on: Tue Oct 30, 2012 - 23:52:42 »
We do need to rest and give God his due honour, but we are free to choose to do that on a Wednesday, if we desire or if that is all we have. God doesn't carry a big stick about it.
So why would God, on the first week of Creation, have went to all the trouble to Sanctify and make Holy the 7th Day if any ol' day would do? 
It's clear to me that the Word of God says the Sabbath is God's Holy Day, not any other day.

That was before the Messiah. Jesus is the Sabbath and we rest in Him, free from keeping any particular day as separate. If anyone desires to keep the Sabbath, they are free to, but no one is commanded to.

Offline chosenone

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Re: Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism
« Reply #30 on: Wed Oct 31, 2012 - 03:59:07 »
We do need to rest and give God his due honour, but we are free to choose to do that on a Wednesday, if we desire or if that is all we have. God doesn't carry a big stick about it.
So why would God, on the first week of Creation, have went to all the trouble to Sanctify and make Holy the 7th Day if any ol' day would do? 
It's clear to me that the Word of God says the Sabbath is God's Holy Day, not any other day.

That was before the Messiah. Jesus is the Sabbath and we rest in Him, free from keeping any particular day as separate. If anyone desires to keep the Sabbath, they are free to, but no one is commanded to.
 
Yep and we are told NOT to judge each other on this matter, although some here still do it time after time after time. ::shrug::

Offline DaveW

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Re: Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism
« Reply #31 on: Wed Oct 31, 2012 - 06:05:02 »
<<I say  a bracha [blessing] before eating and pray AFTER the meal as commanded in scripture:>>

Jesus did neither.

Mark 14:18 ..

Oh really.

Mark 14:18 As they were reclining and eating, Yeshua said, “Amen, I tell you, one of you who is eating with me will betray me.”
19 They began to be sorrowful, and to say to him one by one, “I am not the one am I?”
20 He said to them, “It is one of the twelve, one who dips with me in the bowl.
21 For the Son of Man indeed goes, just as it is written about him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would be better for that man if he had not been born.”
22 And while they were eating, He took matzah, and after he had offered the bracha, He broke it, and gave to them, and said, “Take,  This is my body.”
23 And He took a cup, and when he had made the bracha, he gave to them. They all drank of it.
24 He said to them, “This is my blood of the new covenant, which is poured out for many.
25 Amen, I tell you, I will no more drink of the fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it anew in God’s Kingdom.”
26 And after singing the Hallel, they went out to the Mount of Olives.

In the Passover Seder, the Hallel (psalms of praise) is part of the Blessing after the Meal (birkat hamazon)

I submit that he did both.
« Last Edit: Wed Oct 31, 2012 - 06:34:20 by DaveW »

Offline DaveW

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Re: Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism
« Reply #32 on: Wed Oct 31, 2012 - 06:08:06 »

The Saturday Sabbath is still in effect for Jews?  Yes, if they are still Jews (not Christians).

Once a Jew always a Jew.

So apparently it is  a good thing that New Covenant believing Jews are called Messianics instead of Christians.

And if the Sabbath was not in effect for New Covenant Jewish believers, why would Our Lord tell his Jewish audience this:

Matt 24.20 Pray that your flight will not be in the winter, nor on a Sabbath,
« Last Edit: Wed Oct 31, 2012 - 06:24:12 by DaveW »

Offline TN.Frank

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Re: Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism
« Reply #33 on: Wed Oct 31, 2012 - 10:24:23 »
Many keep missing the point that the Sabbath was brought into being before there were any Jews. The Sabbath was also brought into being BEFORE any Sin had entered into the World. The Saturday Sabbath is a Celebration of God and His Creation. It was the Jews that turned it into something Legalistic with all their "shall not" rules.
Also some of ya'll keep saying "Jews", well, I've got news for ya'll. Through Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek, Free or Slave, Male nor Female but we are all one in Christ.  You can't say "Well, that's just for the Jewish Believers, not for us Christians" because there is no such thing, we are all "Believers" , not Jewish or Gentile.
And another point, God didn't do something New, he Grafted us Gentiles into the Old. We, the "wild branches" have been Grafted into the Tree of the Old Covenant by the Blood of Christ so that we may be called Children of Israel even though we're not originally of the Tree. Through Christ's sacrifice  we who were born Gentiles can now call Abraham, Isaac and Jacob our Fathers and YHVH Our God.
It's like if you have a Car Insurance Policy that covers you and your spouse and you go in and modify it(i.e. make a new covenant with the insurance agency) to allow your 16 year old son to now be covered. It's the same old policy but amended to include your son now.  Same "Old" policy but with "New" drivers added.  That's how the Old Covenant is compared to the New. Christ paid for the Sins of ALL the Word so we're now on the "Jewish" Insurance Policy too even though we're Gentiles.
Also, someone tried to say that the Saturday Sabbath was no longer in effect because it was no where mentioned in the NT like some of the other 10 Commandments were. It didn't need to be Spoke of because Christ, Paul and all the other Believers LIVED it, they worshiped on the Sabbath, it was the Only Game in Town, you either worshiped YHVH God on the Sabbath or you didn't worship at all. There was no option for Sunday worship or any other day for that matter unless you were a Pagan who worshiped the Sun, in which case you did worship on the First Day of the Week, SUNday.
 The Jury is still out for me on just HOW we are to Worship. Tradition(i.e. what I grew up with) says we "Go to Church" on "A DAY", (you pick, Sabbath, Sunday) and Worship but I still don't see "Going" someplace in the Bible. Sure they "came together" but does that mean in a formal building with a formal, organized service like we have today, I don't really know and the Bible is silent on that point.
Was it more like our modern day Bible Studies where everyone joined in, probably since in 1st Corinthians Paul address how everyone had a gift to use in the Church.
I really don't think it was as formal or organized as we see it today and I really don't think that only one person(i.e. the Pastor) was the only one allowed to speak during the Service.
« Last Edit: Wed Oct 31, 2012 - 10:29:52 by TN.Frank »

Offline DaveW

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Re: Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism
« Reply #34 on: Wed Oct 31, 2012 - 11:23:17 »
Frank you keep missing the point that God said it was a sign between Himself and Israel forever. He never said that with the gentiles.

You love to bring up the "neither Jew nor Greek, Free or Slave, Male nor Female" rant but the same Paul who wrote that gave separate instructions to males and females, to parents and children, to slaves and slave owners. If you do not see those separate sets of instructions as "another gospel," why do you single out the separate instructions for Jews as another gospel? Be consistent.

And again, as you said gentiles are grafted in, and in that same exact chapter, the exact same apostle wrote that (in context speaking of the Jews) that God's gifts and callings were irrevocable/without repentance. IOW they NEVER CHANGE.   The sabbath is one of those gifts given specifically to Israel. While you rightfully point out that the sabbath existed BEFORE there were any Jews, the writer of Hebrews reminds us that Levi paid tithes to Melchizedek generations before he was born by his ancestor Abraham.  IT is the same with the Sabbath.  While it existed, the sabbath was never mandated until Sinai.  But it was kept by Judah's ancestor Adam.

You said "It didn't need to be Spoke of because Christ, Paul and all the other Believers LIVED it, they worshiped on the Sabbath."  Very true.  Tell me, which one of those listed here are NOT Jewish?  Jesus is a Jew. Paul was a Jew. The 12 apostles were all Jews. They were MANDATED to worship on the Sabbath.

 

     
anything